Warez ::: Frustation;irritation

[Atyss]

Warez propagation is an inevitable consequence of the internet. It's pretty hard to stop, as there will always someone to crack the software and one to distribute it. As long as there will be no control over the internet and surveillance of traffic on file exchange softwares, there will be warez diffusion.

If you really want to contribute to stop it, I guess to report the people who distribute the softwares would be the best you can do.

One last thing: remember that crack user don't get support from the company. So when they're in trouble, they can only turn on forums to get help, wich can be quite limitating.


Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

[bvsingh]

thanks for replying

[Paul L. Ming]

Hiya.

Warez is a fact of life. You spent thousands (so did I). You have books and support...and that warm fuzzy feeling that you are supporting a great piece of software (well, after the initial pain of paying thousands of dollars subsides... ;) ).

Ask yourself two questions:

One: Do they have money to pay for it?

If there is no way in hell they could afford it, don't sweat it. Avid hasn't lost any money...there was none to gain from your friends anyway. If they do have the money and were willing to pay...but didn't because they found a free version, NOW you should get on their case. Then you ask yourself what is more valuable to you; knowing that the Evil Warez (TM) has been nipped if/when you turn them in...or are two people's friendships more important. (Personally, I'm for #2).

Two: Are they "professionals", and plan on using their warez versions to make money?

If yes, I'd think seriously about trying to stop them. That's just downright bad, and they deserve to be punished. If no, then don't sweat it.

Personally, I think all sofware should be free for download...but only for "free, fun and educational use". As soon as someone wants to use it to make a living, they should have to pay. But that is my dream world...not likely to happen.

Warez is frustrating for those of us who pay. I'm not saying that I've never used warez...but I've NEVER downloaded warez in order to use it to make money. Yes, I do think there is a difference between using software to make money, and using software for fun. But that's another thing and another thread. ;)

[bvsingh]

Ya interesting views (but the warez pack also contains manuals and a SID to download future revisions).

[robert east]

warez is a fact of life , but you say xsi is expensive , it is not when compared with the fees you charge for projects , you can re- coup ur outlay in no time, depending on ur projects , you could outlay for the essentials package , then buy the extra bits as you need them.

i couldnt care less about people using xsi to learn with cracked or otherwise , the more peeps using it the better , but when it comes to people using it proffessionally , thats a different kettle of fish , they drive costs down , because they dont have to build in their expense of the softwhere and that simply does the market no good ,

As said before the support from softimage is excellent , and they are always more than happy to help !

rob

[Atyss]

Originally posted by bvsingh
Ya interesting views (but the warez pack also contains manuals and a SID to download future revisions).

I don't know where you got this idea but this is impossible. A SID is given by Softimage to people who have purchased the software, and I'm pretty sure Softimage keep a close eye on the use of these SID. No SID, no future revisions or related downloads.


Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

[ggg]

eg. you could use my name and SID to DL just like some share their license # for Photoshop etc or have it stolen perhaps by an employee. besides the crackers will (as they have) post a DL for future revisions anyway. I guess it would take quite a few DLs before it became suspicious.

Although I generally frown on it as I think it raises the cost for all of us just like insurance fraud, I also suspect that some companies have "allowed" some cracking for user base, and in fact I was told that by some app reps wether unspoken or not, and like a few other even well known companies I was recommended to use the crack for stability when we had distributed rendering issues. Another amazing thing is many old cracks work with new whole number versions of apps.
I thought the learning editions might deter cracks but it seems to not be the case.

[visgoth]

If all your friends are going to do with the software is play around with it, and learn to use it in their own homes then who really cares where they got it. As stated before, Avid lost nothing from them grabbing a copy, as they would never have bought XSI anyways.

f they're intending to go into commercial work with pirated software then they're not the brightest of people and deserve everything that'll happen.

Sure, Ideally they could have just gotten the XSI experience cd or bought a student license of it. However, the experience cd has saving of scenes disabled, and no scripting functionallity. The student license (at least from what I recall for softimage 3.8) required that one be enrolled in a course at least a year in length which excludes "casual" users from having a license.

[vmpre]

With all of todays Demo apps like the Maya Personal Learning Ediition and the XSI Experience CD, the warez people who are getting cracks to learn really have no excuse. They can get a legit learning Demo for nothing including manuals, no need for a crack.

Granted that the XSI Experience demo can not save, something I hope Softimage changes, but for people who want to learn, these demos are perfect.

For those that get the cracks to produce work and make money...then that needs to be stopped.

There you go
Vmpre

[EdHarriss]

I know how you guys feel about cracks and pirated software. Believe me, I understand what it is like... people pirate my stuff. :hmm: So far, this discussion has stayed somewhat clean. (considering the topic.) Even though warez talk is taboo here at CGTalk, I think this thread is relevant to us all. So I'm going to let it continue as long as it stays on track. :)

[bvsingh]

Holla,

For me the most frustating part is that my "friends" use their @$%$% warez commercially so they can quote real low prices for projects which leaves people like us in the dark.

Anyways, Iwould always buy.

Hail XSI.

[DaliFan]

and they take the chance of going to jail :shame:

[SheepFactory]

Originally posted by bvsingh
Holla,

For me the most frustating part is that my "friends" use their @$%$% warez commercially so they can quote real low prices for projects which leaves people like us in the dark.

Anyways, Iwould always buy.

Hail XSI.


You know about the report piracy section at the softimage website?


piracy@softimage.com


write a mail to them and report your "friends"

there is no excuse for using warez for commercial gains.


:thumbsdow

[flaagan]

using warez to learn a software before using it professionally...
I'd personally be interested to hear what people at softimage (and similar companies) have to say (unofficially / off the record) about students and others in such a situation.
if it generates a larger (paying) user base / following in the near future for the company, then the short term financial loss could (just barely) be deemed acceptable.
However, using such warez to put yourself ahead of the competition commercially is about the most evil thing I can imagine. Friend or foe, I wouldnt hesitate to report them.

-- oh, and by the way, after just ten minutes of playing around with xsi 3 in one of classes this trimester, i'm already wishing i had $10K to buy xsi for myself..(actually, make that $20K, if i had $10k i'd be spending it on my Barracuda so i could finally restore and drive it :D )...

[bvsingh]

Personally, I think that every CG award or prize should check whether legit software went into making the entry.

Secondly, all clients should check whether the designer is using legit software or not (but why in Adam's land any client lose their 'low-quoting' designers). Even clients should be fined or something to force them to use legit designers.

Hail XSI.

[Atyss]

@@@@
I'd personally be interested to hear what people at softimage (and similar companies) have to say (unofficially / off the record) about students and others in such a situation.
@@@@

Unless you personally know someone inside the company "in the know" willing to talk you about that, you'll never get such information. I believe that developpers have nothing against personal use of warez, as long as it remains personal. After all if the artists using it make great projects, it helps sell the software. Many people are convinced that discreet and Adobe are the ones who publish cracks and serials for their own softwares.


@@@@
Personally, I think that every CG award or prize should check whether legit software went into making the entry.
@@@@

This is not reasonable. There is no way a developer can sue you for illegal use of their software as long as you don't make money with it or distribute the crack. When you are entered in a contest or gain an award, it's always on free basis. Plus, it's a great marketing opportunity for the developper.


@@@@
Secondly, all clients should check whether the designer is using legit software or not (but why in Adam's land any client lose their 'low-quoting' designers). Even clients should be fined or something to force them to use legit designers.
@@@@

This is not the responsibility of the client. I know that some clients will check, but I never encountered one that did. Perhaps governemental agencies will check, but private clients don't bother with that.


Just my 2 cents
Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

[Darlock]

companies are losing money with the warez because mostly businesses are the ones pirating, because the costs of multi license are insane, especially for small business, thats what software developers are worried about. thats why they check businesses, i dont know of any individual pirate that a company would care about, since he wouldnt buy the software anyway, and its a good opportunity for someone (like most of the graphic people out there) to practice and learn the software, but its good to understand that if u start a legit business with pirated software, then the company will care, because thats how they lose money

[Vic3k]

picture a literally poor guy who wants an opportunity at becoming a cg artist but can't afford to buy a software even for $2k since it's almost like a used cheap car. so are you gonna say that that person should have the opportunity just coz of his class?
warez do not kill business. like said here, a company doesn't loose anything since most ppl wouldn't buy anyway, instead they grow a potentual user base which softimage needs badly right now. but i'm 100% on using a software commercially should be punished. ofcourse you wouldn't report a friend if you knew one doing so coz if you would, then how big of a friend you are then? just keep bugging them and perhaps scare em or they will just eventually get it anyway.

games don't loose anything from warez either. there are so few ppl that actually don't buy AAA titles or AA pr A titles. pirated games usually come out a week earlier from official release dates. ppl get the chance to try them. if a person likes the game and has money, he would go buy it anyway later. BUT there are very few good games lately so ppl after playing a warez game don't wanna go and buy it. why would they buy something that they played for free for a few hours and didn't like? even if they did buy before playing cracked game, it would be the same, they would play for a few hours and would return it to store. but there are those, that after liking a game, would want to buy it but really off financially. yah yah you would say if you really like something you would manage to find money. well if you been raised in a wealthy family then i understand but there are really ppl who can't afford such laxuary. i'm one of those ppl.

i'm going to college. 2nd final year in 3d animation. at the end of college i will have to return ~$15k. yes i am using cracked xsi and so do everyone of the students in my college, at home. yes i should buy student licences but do i have the money? no simply no if i can barely buy smokes, infact my parents support me right now. now you my run to softimage and report me. what will you gain? what will they gain? and how much harm it might coase me?
so what's the point other than shutting a person from his dreams just coz of his class?

but again, if i to become a freelancer, i would defenitly buy a software but if i don't gain money, i would in no way pay, and who would pay for my food?

i fully understand your rage becuase you might have bought for non commercial use and others don't. well if you did so then you must have had the money or took loans but had some kind of a plan of not stripping you off naked. well others don't have money.

warez are for the poor. 99%. if you think otherwise then you don't know nothing about warez and shouldn't even bring that up in attention something, that you don't know what you speak off.

wow that's the longest post i did in ages. just hate the warez bashers coz they don't understand what they speak off. sorry i don't mean to be offencive.

that's my take.

[bvsingh]

Hey man Vic3k, you were terrefic.

Really that's the best post I ever read.
I'm no longer a warez basher.
U really opened my eyes.

Hail XSI.

[Vic3k]

if that was sarcasm then good for you....

[Atyss]

[vmpre]

games don't loose anything from warez either

Wrong. I work in the game business. Warez hurts.

Do you know why PC games are out sold by console games? Because PC game cracks are more readily available then console cracks. Mostly because you have to mod your PS2 hardware.

Look at a game like Quake3 that has millions of players and last I heard it didnt even sell a million copies in the first year. What does that tell you. id Software would be making a lot more money if it werent for warez.

Warez hurts the game biz.

I also agree with what Atyss. Warez hurts the professional community as well. Nicely described Bernard.

But like I said before. People who use warez to learn have no excuse anymore. The XSI Experience and Maya PLE can provide execellent learning tools for nothing. You dont even need to buy the Educational license if you dont mind the watermark. Even though the Maya watermark is really bad.

There really is no reason for warez anymore. They only reason they exist now is so that companies and freelancers can make a profit. And that is wrong wrong wrong.

Students: Get the learning versions not the warez version
Pros: Pay for the damn license you are hurting the profession and yourselves.

Vmpre

[Vic3k]

atyss, thanks for transofrming what i said into something of your liking. infact i didn't even finish reading, that was sad.
vmpre. for your knowledge quake3 requires cdkey to play online and it is online game. there are very very few ppl who know how to get quake3 working online iwth fake cdkey. so it's sales didn't go down since warez ppl 90% wouldn't be able to play it. it's its own fault. no one i know ever liked quake3 so go figure....

anyway good day. think what you think and i will think what i think, there is not border line anyway and no opinions gonna change. no gain here not loss...

[gmask]

The inequity between how some see pirated games and pirated software is really interesting.. games are purely for fun and even though somebody could amass thousands of dollars of games that's not okay because it doesn't hurt the industry :surprised But if somebody gets a piece of software worth thousands of dollars that is okay as long as the only use it at home. Both pirated game and pirated software users use the stolen intellectual property at home to kill time.. I suppose if it were more possible to get a professional job playing video games that stealing them would be justified because the user needs a chance to learn how to play them?

In boths cases the general justification is that the companies being stolen from are huge and it doesn't really hurt them. Is there really any difference between this and shoplifting? The same excuse is used.. well it doesn't hurt the major stores because they are so huge.

There is free and inexpensive software out there.. why not give the little guys a chance rather than steal. The large companies even have student versions or learning editions now so there is really nothing justifiable about piracy. If somebody is truly talented it will show through their work no matter what software or medium they use.

Anyway if you like romaticising criminal behaviour then see Catch me if you can.. it does a wonderful job of romanticising check fraud and shows that if you are a really brilliant scammer you can get ahead and actually become legitmate.. Good movie too!

[gmask]

>>I have nothing against such use of warez. In fact, I think it would be stupid to buy any license EXCLUSIVELY for personal use. I don't see the point of throwing thousands of bucks into something that won't generate a single penny.


Hey man how's it going ;-)

The problem I have witht his statement is that people spend money on hobbies all the time. There are compaines who make money selling to hobbyists. So you are sayin gthat hobbyist software users should not have to pay because the software will not earn them income?? That's crazy talk! Seriously.. if they are just in it for the fun then they can get freeware or inexpensive shareware. If somebody is seriously considering becoming professional then they should figure some way to legally buy the software. You would never tell your potential employer that you used cracked software to get into the biz but to me it makes a big statement about your sense of ethics but if you are talented I guess it does not matter.

Anyway.. I'm off to steall a Lamboghini because I want to drive it my driveway and I figure nobody will care since I'm not going to use it professionally :buttrock:

One last thing.. as to punishing somebody for possesing or distributing software the penalties involved will or should have much to do with wether or not you were using for profit or were distributing the software and especially if you were selling the software. I think the minimum is that the end user of cracked software would have to actually buy the software. To me that seems fair.

[vmpre]

I used Quake3 as an example of a popular pirated game.

My point is that for every copy of a PC game sold there will be 3 copies pirated. Working for a game company I can tell you that if you sold 3 times...or even 2 times as many copies can make a huge difference in what the company earns.

Bottom line, pirating hurts everyone, somewhere someone is not getting what they are due. Games and 3D software.

Disagree with me if you want. No sweat. But I just wanted to point out that it affects games just as much as software.

Vmpre

[swampthing]

Originally posted by vmpre
I used Quake3 as an example of a popular pirated game.

My point is that for every copy of a PC game sold there will be 3 copies pirated.

Vmpre


90% of all statistics are made up on the spot...

Can you even REMOTELY back that up with evidence and hard facts? No absolutely not. It's widely disputed allready the numbers that are put out every year about how much is lost due to software piracy. I personally think they pull that number out of their nether regions. If your figures were even remotely accurate then every household in america must have a copy of the sims.

That said, I think there alot of nievete here as well as quite a bit of hypocrisy. I'd wager that quite a large amount of people working in CG now got their start on a pirated version of some 3d software. In fact i'd guess that 3dsmax's and lightwaves popularity could be highly attributed to the fact that both were widely pirated and easy to come by, whereas XSI/softimage were harder to crack and get out. I really think 3dsmax's success is directly related to it's readily available status as a pirated app. This put it into thousands of people's hands who would never have seen it otherwise.

In a strange kind of way I'd bet discreet is thankful for being the most widely pirated 3d app.

As for games? That is a WHOLE other issue. Games are pirated for vastly different reasons than 3d apps and really doesn't even apply for discussion here. But i will say that if return policies on games weren't the way they are, piracy on them probably wouldn't have grown so much on them. I personally hate buying games anymore as i don't like 9 out of 10 that i buy, so downloading them to check them out seems the way to go. And don't mention demos. Demo's are the absolute best of a game presented in the most flattering way and don't give an accurate impression. The game industry has itself to blame for piracy, in respect that the amount of bad games truly outweighs the good and people are tired of paying 50$ and not being able to return that piece of crap they just bought.

[gmask]

>>>The game industry has itself to blame for piracy, in respect that the amount of bad games truly outweighs the good and people are tired of paying 50$ and not being able to return that piece of crap they just bought.

You could and some do say the same thing about the record industry that it's their fault and that they do deserve the get ripped off. However some stores let you listen before you buy and offhand I can't think of any stores that have a policy for returning msuic after you have taken it ou tof the store.

The thing is though if you go to a bad movie would you ask for your money back after sitting through it??? No! or maybe you would but I wouldn't.

I don't see how demo versions of software limit your ability to judge the game.. mayb ewethe ror no the other levels are as good as the demo one is what you mean? Alot of games to me seem to have the same basic formula pointin shoot, car chase, skiing etc.. is that because game makers are unoriginal or that game players are easily amused?? I don't know but neither are really justifications for stealling intellectual property.. can't console games be rented?? I guess you are mainly talking about PC games.

Why is intellectual property treated like a second class citizen???

All these companies spend a huge amount of money up front to develop software and when people don't buy it the price will not go down. If peopl insist on playing these games even though they do not feel like they are worth paying for then why are they playing them at all!! It sounds to me that a game could be hugely popular even though nobody is buying it. Maybe that's why the formula is so popular, the fact that people will play these games anyway perpetuates the myth that unoriginal games are needed even though nobody is buying them. Game makers are afraid to spend the money to really try to do something new because their is a high chance that their efforts will not be appreciated adn they know that they will sell at least a certain number of units for the standard going price. It also seems clear that it is hard to do something original that is also not controversial but that is another debate.

[DaliFan]

gmask no offense but I would wager inside the companies themself they would disagree with you

not talking about games here.. but for sure on mid to high end 3d software

think about it.. if joe who works at K-Mart comes home everynight and plays around with a cracked version of softimage, let us say Joe makes a super sort that is just astounding

it spreds everywhere, people ooo and ahhh , then of course what is the next question you see all the time? what software?

it does help the company

I think a lot of people are upset that some very good people get a chance. I am all for products like wings or Hash and so on. I think warez hurts them. However, companies like Discreet for SURE benefit heavily on how many users use a cracked copy of say, 3dsMax. Comparing it to a car or something that can not be reproduced in 10 minutes is crazy. I do own a LEGAL copy of Cinema4d R8 bought and paid for. However some of this is simple logic. Without cracked home use, you would have a field that does not get a whole lot of GOOD fresh blood. How many people decided to go to school after they used a cracked copy of Maya for a year? How many people that you might look up to that are in the field because of cracked copy learning? I would wager a lot. If the field cared then everytime you got hired you would have to bring the software and give evidence you bought it. Not happening... companies like Alias|Wavefront would not make the sales if not for people getting used to it with a cracked copy. They are not hurt by someone who never had intended buying it, using it at home to learn it. They do benefit if he decides to get in the field and buy a legal copy. The art benefits from his talent.

There is no doubt why Max has a HUGE user base. How many scripts would not exist without someone using a cracked copy? How many plugins?

Not so black and white

I think everyone can agree that making money with a cracked copy is fraud. Very dangerous and you get what you deserve.

[gmask]

>>>gmask no offense but I would wager inside the companies themself they would disagree with you

None taken ;-)

As stated before you will never get any of them to say that on the record.

The software market has changed but PowerAnimator was not floating around in crackware land back when it was on the SGI only, cost at least $20k to start yet some how they managed to stay in bizness.

So I wouldn't say that piracy makes companies successful. I feel certain that it is not helping AW and that they would not agree that as the level piracy that is going on is okay with them. Microsoft is not okay with it and have tried to raise their own standards to prevent it but they are so huge that the rampant amount of piracy they enjoy does not matter because the problem areas are dead markets for them bacause nobody in those areas pay for anything software related. Maybe I'm making some generalizations... likewise maybe the hobbyist market would not be a big money making for mid to high end apps but I stil think they would rather be granting the free licenses to certain approved users than have it taken from them. That is if what you are sayin gabout Joe K-Mart doing them a favor by using their software to make good art. Last itme I checked most companies are sporting some serious good and legit artists. I'm not buying it that the best artists are non legit.

Let put it this way.. I used to be a clerk in a convienence store. It was my job to stop sholifters. However should I catch one and actually get the police to come by and arrest them I would have to go to court and the company would not pay me for that time(which is ridiculous). My manager would dive over the counter and chase you down the street and tackle you for stealing anything. Myself if I caiught somebody before they opened the merch or got out of the store I would just ask them to pay for it or put it back. The few tims I did actually call the police the person had run away and they got their too late to find them.

The honor system doesn't work and while I agree that the estimated losses are probably bloated by the numbers of people who if they had to would not buy that still does not mean that the losses are insginificant.

So another way you could say the companies loose money is that they have to pay lawyers and staff members and whatever else they do to prevent and prosecute pirates. But you'd probably argue that they should just not prosecute and save the money bcause it doens't hurt them.


Is there discretion when it comes to cracking the small guys versus the big guys?? Or is it based on what's popular or whose company could spare the extra revenue the most? What's the criteria?

Again .. there is free software out there so being poor is just not an valid excuse.. maybe the poor should beable to get the poor man's discount on the same highend hardware that those who can afford it get? Would that make the playing field level enough?

Unfortunately life is not fair and I still think that no matter where you come from or how much money you have that if you actually have talent for art that you can demostrate it without the aid of a computer.

[DaliFan]

gmask I notice you like these long posts :) you like to discuss I think :p

I think a company like hash is hurt by warez. They would sell a lot more if people had to pay. So in that case I think it is obvious.

I think with a company like discreet, they can give a big thank you to cracked versions. The rumor that they release cracks themself would not suprise me. The masses of resources IMHO are a direct cause and effect of a large cracked user base. The masses of scripts is the same. The amount of people that know "max" is another cause and effect.

I never said the best users were people who used warez. I said that the field would be missing a lot of great art if not for cracked warez. I doubt that is debatable. I imagine (and it is a guess) we would be shocked and what was made with cracked and non-cracked. I have no doubt some people would love for the field to be as small as possible. It would for sure limit the talent. Again, hiring companies for the most part do not even want to know if what you use at home is legal. They just want to know what you can do with it.

If you were to eliminate all warez (never happen of course).. I would wager the sales for high end apps would go down and not up over the long run. Less people to buy and less talent to hire. Just a HO.

I bought mine and no doubt you did but I bet we are in the small group here :beer:

[gmask]

>>>gmask I notice you like these long posts :) you like to discuss I think :p

Yup :applause:

>>I think a company like hash is hurt by warez. They would sell a lot more if people had to pay. So in that case I think it is obvious.
>>I think with a company like discreet, they can give a big thank you to cracked versions.

But still these statements contradict one another and maybe Hash is harmed because is just inferior otherwise people using it and doing great art would work for it???

As for MAX I think that the main reason it is successful is that it was a great PC 3D program before everybody was developing 3D for the PC. The reason why it is so heavily cracked is that windows is prone to that.

>>>The rumor that they release cracks themself would not suprise me.

Most likely it is the people who beta test for Discreet who are leaking the software.. thus why any software could be out before it is on the shelves. I guess you coudl read this as being that Discreet is leaking it on purpose in that they allow non-employees to test it. I will mention that some developers individually track each piece of beta software the send out to testers but that is probably easy to overcome as well.

>>>The masses of scripts is the same. The amount of people that know "max" is another cause and effect.

The softwar ehas been around for a long long time.. any software that has a long track record will accumulate resources. Npow that everything is online it is easier to distribute for free these resources. These are also reasons as to how warez has spread so quickly.

>>>I said that the field would be missing a lot of great art if not for cracked warez. I doubt that is debatable. I imagine (and it is a guess) we would be shocked and what was made with cracked and non-cracked.

Art is not exempt from the issue of ethics.. it is not and there is no debating it. Look a the work of Prof Von Hagen or Joel Peter Witken and you will see that there is reason to question ethics. maybe these are more controversial examples but you seem to be saying that the end justify the means and that is a touchy statement and one not to be taken lightly for art or for anything else.

Maybe we would have more artists if we blanketed every family with an income under $10000 per year with highend computer??? Tools do not make the art artists do. More art appreciation in generally would be nice as well.

At the same time though the numebr of artists out there has increased but I don't really see that the job market has so the net result is that wages go down for everybody.

>>>just want to know what you can do with it.

Okay well if anything it is a don't ask don't tell situation.

>>>If you were to eliminate all warez (never happen of course).. I would wager the sales for high end apps would go down and not up over the long run. Less people to buy and less talent to hire. Just a HO.

Copying is the nature of any digital.. protecting digital media is difficult but I wager that if they could they would. I'm not a big fan of Bill Gates but back when software was distributed on rolls of punched paper tape he was an advocate of software protection.


>>>I bought mine and no doubt you did but I bet we are in the small group here

Perhaps here we are a small group but hopefully not so in the professional realm. I have spent so much money on software and hardware over the years but it is all a deduction and I owe my living to it. But to justify it is really to encourage it don't ya think?

[DaliFan]

As long as companies are willing to hire (I do not see this changing at all) people using illegal copies then people will continue to see it as a acceptable stepping stone.

what the companies might think is a opinion thing so not much we can say on that.. you have one view and I have another

I disagree on the resources with 3dsMax. While yes it is a old pc based 3d app and has been around, no way someone could convince me that the pages full of scripts would be the same :) 3dsMax is the app most used by people doing warez. Thousands of people using a cracked copy of 3dsMax worldwide. Those people also make scripts, plugins, the same as someone who owns a legal copy. Take those away and I doubt it would stack up. You would still have a lot but not the HUGE amount you do now

I worked hard and my family chipped in for me to get the studio bundle of Cinema 4d. It is not like I have sympathy. At the same time we have to be realistic. I have the manuals. I can make something and go sell it with no worry over someone calling me up someday. Someone using warez has no manuals. Has no tech support. If they use it they take a good chance they could go to jail or at best have to buy it. To each his own

:shrug:

[gmask]

>>>As long as companies are willing to hire (I do not see this changing at all) people using illegal copies then people will continue to see it as a acceptable stepping stone.

Well it would be hypocritical for companies that do in fact have a few pieces of "warez" around to not hire people for this reason. I wouldn't dare somebody to bring it up during an interview in either case. It is also is the type of work where the end result matters more than who you are or what you are as a person but it is definately more of an issue with other professions.

>>>what the companies might think is a opinion thing so not much we can say on that.. you have one view and I have another

Yes an individual can use the I'm just learning justification and as long as nobody knows then everything is okay but as soon as that person starts admitting to it they will get into trouble.


>>>>Thousands of people using a cracked copy of 3dsMax worldwide. Those people also make scripts, plugins, the same as someone who owns a legal copy. Take those away and I doubt it would stack up. You would still have a lot but not the HUGE amount you do now

Windows has alot of people making scripts for it unfortunately most of them will do nasty things to your email ;-) I'm am under the opinion that MAX is not much without plugins and all the add-ons but I still say that it owes it success to having been onthe platform for a long long long time.. just like LW and the Amiga. But it is hard to say that the user contributions would be more or less of a higher quality or amount based on wether or not there is warez. We can only speculate.

>>>>To each his own

It is hard to apply that statement when it comes to law..opinions surething. :thumbsup: With law it is never to each his own. Again it is because the property in question is easy to copy that most seem to think it is okay with the owners of the property to copy and pass it on. I will say that each company has it's own policies about copying and some are stricker than others. For example we all breath the same air.. the air we breath may have been in some part of the world that because it is behind and is only just now experiencing an industrial revolution is it okay for them to dump especially high amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere? They are their own country so they should beable to pollute as much as they like?

[DaliFan]

to each his own

if he is willing to take the risk then who am I to tell him what to do

I think everyone knows it is against the law. If he/she takes the risk then they should be ready to take the consequences. You are just parsing my words ;) To each his own

I think if someone is stupid enough to admit they are using an illegal product (even at home for a hobby) then they are missing a couple screws to begin with.

:scream:

max has been around a very long time but also.. may has been cracked a very long time as well :eek:

:beer:

[gmask]

>>>if he is willing to take the risk then who am I to tell him what to do

You can say that about alot of things but it might not seem like such a great thing if you are on the wrong end of it. It's a double standard.. I guess we love those here :rolleyes:

[Mazer]

Just my 2cents:

If there was no warez at all there would be a Blender section in this forums and it would be huge;) .
The linux user base would be huge especialy in coutries like China, russia ect...
Photoshop would have serious problems to justify its price compared to Gimp or Paint shop pro...
Max would be in serious trouble to...
Xsi would have to enable people to save scenes in the demo or they would se the vídeos, get interested, play a bit and then just drop it (exatly wat I did and I think Im not the only one...)
Lightwave would sell alot more due to the price/quality relation.
Hash AM also for the same reason.
Only rich kidies would ever get a chance to learn Renderman artists tools (yes I know about 3delight... try it without Mtor...)
I talked recently to an apple dealer in my area and one strong reason wy people dont buy more macs in europe is that its harder to find warez for mac...so its possible to assume that if there where no warez at all it woud sel more...
There would be a hell lot more Watermarked Images in net Galeries ( Have you ever seen one ?)....

Actrualy warez has its good and its bad side but I cant be agains-it or suport-it aniway people in this area use to be good people we can see that by the fórums and if someone doesn buy its software package there is a good chance its actualy because they cant and that they will as soon as they can. Well most will I gess...
Also notice that 7000 $ (Xsi essencials price isn'it?) is for instance aprox 18 months of minimum wage in Portugal not to mention other countries....

I strongly disaprove using warez for comertial use but I cant agree with people who seems to miss the days were you had to be rich to learn 3d.

Can we all swere we dont have downloaded a single Mp3 from Kazza? Is anione a saint:rolleyes: ?

[DaliFan]

Originally posted by gmask
>>>if he is willing to take the risk then who am I to tell him what to do

You can say that about alot of things but it might not seem like such a great thing if you are on the wrong end of it. It's a double standard.. I guess we loves though here :rolleyes:

again, I think you like to discuss just for the sake of discussing

It might please you if I stomped my foot and got all huffy and puffy about it, yet I am not making policy you know? I gave my view and I think that should be enough. If someone wants to take the risk then then they can bear the burden. End of story and discussion. Nothing more to say other then that. Cracks for high end software has been around a long time and that is not going to change. People have different opinions to what you may have. That is called life. Just because something is a law does not mean it is 100% right. Companies could do a lot more to stop cracks but the fact is they do not. Most of the protection used has not changed at all. They have no intention of changing it and frankly it is obvious why. I bought mine so they can feel free to come over

Have a nice day :wavey:

[gmask]

Originally posted by DaliFan

Have a nice day :wavey:

You too :love:

[Mazer]

Sorry, I forgot to mention Cinema 4d on the price/quality part:)

[gmask]

>>>If there was no warez at all there would be a Blender section in this forums and it would be huge;) .

Oh well..

>>>>The linux user base would be huge especialy in coutries like China, russia ect...

But windows is easier and does not have the fear factor that users have of unix.


>>Photoshop would have serious problems to justify its price compared to Gimp or Paint shop pro...

If only Gimp supported alpha channels in a sane manner.

>>>Only rich kidies would ever get a chance to learn Renderman artists tools (yes I know about 3delight... try it without Mtor...)

Actual there is a new thing called Liquid and there have been at least one other renderman interface for Maya. I have used several programs in the past that used Renderman exclusively.. they weren't cheap but considering the alternatives there were not many other options in the early 90's. I used Renderman on a Mac and an SGI back then.

>>>>I talked recently to an apple dealer in my area and one strong reason why people don't buy more macs in europe is that its harder to find warez for mac...

That is also one reason why The US army adopted them is because there are fewer people in northern europe that know how to crack macs. I have also heard that the Amiga is also still very popular in Europe and I doubt anybody is still developing for it.

So even if the compputers would be given away users would not use them because there just is not enough quality crack out ther efor the mac..well crack my mac mel!


>>>There would be a hell lot more Watermarked Images in net Galeries ( Have you ever seen one ?)....

I don't think this has anything to do with with software licensing .. I mean most people who put their work online are not goign to sell that image or be in a position where they can collect royalties. Some artist may not be concerned about protecting their copyright that way but they still would probably not want that copyright to be abused.

>>>Also notice that 7000 $ (Xsi essencials price isn'it?) is for instance aprox 18 months of minimum wage in Portugal not to mention other countries....

And I don't see why somebody in Portugal needs to have a more expensive software in order to do good art or to compete. If they want to compete in the global market place then the same price should be paid. Again you say give this guy a chance he is just using it to learn but if he is learning it so that he can compete the work force then it comes back to money but you say without a doubt that using it for finaincial gain is not right. There it is .. entering the work force is for financial gain not art for arts sake.

I don't care what people do in the privacy of their own homes and I'll rationalize all sorts of things for art.

Maybe there should be a website that is totally dedicated to free software to promote the little guys.:beer:

[Vic3k]

gmask. dunno but you are becoming some kind of nightmare :) evertime i post in thread (i don't post alot) i see tons upon tons of replys from you that are a sort of small essays, i don't even bother readying most of them. just the blabla for the sake of arguing all the time. stop living in cgtalk and instead make some good visuals, shows us so we drool and be inspired upon you.

oh my. oh well. oh this thread...well wealthy would never know....and like one said here, didnt you ever dl a single mp3? well we are all guilty and lets not get smart about it coz it's stupid

[Mazer]

>>>There would be a hell lot more Watermarked Images in net Galeries ( Have you ever seen one ?)....

I'm talking about maya ple and other demos watermarked renders.

entering the work force is for financial gain not art for arts sake.

I doubth anione would ever get a job if they do 3d for financial gain. People learn 3d for passion not for money, or else they dont learn at all.
And I don't see why somebody in Portugal needs to have a more expensive software in order to do good art or to compete.
Thats why I never found a single place using Xsi in Portugal, is that good for Softimage? And if Xsi doesnt give beneficts compared to less expenssive tools, wy is it more expensive?

I read on a post somewere a kid saing he would get Max for cristmass, good for him, I don envy him. But the fact is that its a hell more dificult to hearn 3500$ in Portugal, Grece,Spain.. not to mention Russia, China etc.. There is a world outside US...you should visit... Lots of beutiful places and great peole with diferent cultures...

[gmask]

>>>>I'm talking about maya ple and other demos watermarked renders.

Well there are also tons of students that either have legit student copies or work in school computer lab.. I have seen more ple's stamps lately but not many.


>>>you should visit... Lots of beutiful places and great peole with diferent cultures...

I'm not arguing that there isn't . Some US companies will hire based on your artisitc abilites as a fine artist and train you on whatever they use.. other use proprietary solutions.. funny that those manage to not get leaked out?? Cause surely people would rather use anything that ILM or PIXAR made... oh wait but it would be a dead give away if they posted images that were from some proprietary system..so using the same software as the companies you want to work for is not allways the issue.

>>>People learn 3d for passion not for money, or else they dont learn at all.

I started out wanting to be a fine arts sculptor but you know what? I ended up doing 3D because it is a more reliable way for me to earn a living. Most of the people I went to school are probably not doing anything artistic these days but it would not require much of an investment for them to. If you really want o suffer for art try to live of selling your paintings or scupltures.. it's rough. I only know one guy who is doing it for a living now that I went to school with although there has to be others.


>>>Thats why I never found a single place using Xsi in Portugal, is that good for Softimage? And if Xsi doesnt give beneficts compared to less expenssive tools, wy is it more expensive?

Why is XSI not more popular?.. why?.. it has nothing to do with wether or not those in Portugal can afford it. If somebody buys software there what do they buy? I have seen people do great things in ancient versions of 3d software in DOS with a Pentium I under the hood. :drool:

[gmask]

>>>just the blabla for the sake of arguing all the time.

Blah Blah Blah don't get me started :rolleyes:

>>>instead make some good visuals, shows us so we drool and be inspired upon you.

Okay fair enough... I'm working on that I have some other business to attend to and then after that watch out :buttrock:

[Mazer]

Why is XSI not more popular.. why.. it has nothing to do with wether or not those in Portugal can afford it. I seen peopel do great htings in ancient versions of software in DOS with a Pentium I under the hood.

It isn't popular :eek: ? Just ask aroun cgtalk and see how many people would love to get their hands on it... The problem is that the price is way over reach of most, and the demo just makes you feel depressed after erasing everthing you make:annoyed:

And why isnt there a mass piracy of Xsi, because people dont feel they would ever make enought money to buy it anyway, so they dont bother to spend time learning...
Im prety sure that Maya warez are more popular since the price drop. Thats a point for my theory of people wanthing to buy so they learn ilegaly till they can afford-it.

One thing that would do the trick for Xsi would be a demo with save enabled and nice wathermarks. Something were you could do a portfólio, cgshort, etc.
another thing would be if wen you buy the retail version you had the option to send your scenes to Softimage and they converted it so you could use all the work hours you spend on the demo. I think it is Houdini that does something like this isn-it?
oh, and at least let us use 1024*768 configs, please:p

[gmask]

>>>And why isnt there a mass piracy of Xsi, because people dont feel they would ever make enought money to buy it anyway, so they dont bother to spend time learning...

Sounds like a theory? I dunno? :rolleyes:

Seriously what is the 3d package of choice in portugal?

>>>One thing that would do the trick for Xsi would be a demo with save enabled and nice wathermarks. Something were you could do a portfólio, cgshort, etc.

Yeah and the watermarks in Maya are too much..jeez?


>>another thing would be if wen you buy the retail version you had the option to send your scenes to Softimage and they converted it so you could use all the work hours you spend on the demo.

Hmm.. sounds good.. but it is still a challenge to stop pirates.. I think enventually the only way to prevent it may be to write the software to fast memory cards.. It would be even better if the software was just loaded and didn't even use the local memory except for your scenes etc. Not everybody will do this of course but for really expensive software could take advantage of it .. do pirates make bootlegs of game cartridges?


>>oh, and at least let us use 1024*768 configs, please:p

Huh? You could pay for quaility increments VIDEO or HD or FILM price grades.

[Mazer]

I've just seen this:
well crack my mac mel!

I dont know a thing about programing but if you post that kind off chalenge in a crackers newsgroup, they would do you this favour in less than a week :shrug:.

Be careful with what you wish...;)

[gmask]

Originally posted by Mazer
I've just seen this:


I dont know a thing about programing but if you post that kind off chalenge in a crackers newsgroup, they would do you this favour in less than a week :shrug:.

Be careful with what you wish...;)

I don't even own a mac anymore.. I was just making a joke.. Kiss My Grits MEL.. maybe you never heard that?

[Mazer]

Seriously what is the 3d package of choice in portugal?

Max/viz and Lightwave for what i know.

Yeah and the watermarks in Maya are too much..jeez?

Just ask around...


Huh? You could pay for quaility increments VIDEO or HD or FILM price grades.

Xsi requires a screen resolution of 1280x1024 at least, there are config files to 1024*768 but I could't get them to work on the demo because they are plugins. I'm asking for a solution to that.

I don't even own a mac anymore.. I was just making a joke.. Kiss My Grits MEL.. maybe you never heard that?

You'r prety funny aren't you?:hmm:

[wmendez]

I thinks softimage would be aware if I logged in mutiliple times a day to download updates. Piracy will always happen even when MS Palladium is introduced someone or group would spend their last day to break it and you know what they will.

Im not sure on where Softs stands on this but it's is my oppinion that they will not go after a lone hobbyist for using crack version but will go after a production house that is making money using a Cracked ver of XSi or a warez group that is selling XSI CD's

[DaliFan]

"It would be even better if the software was just loaded and didn't even use the local memory except for your scenes etc"

after all this time you are still missing the picture

the protection schemes used have not been changed much at all in any of the high end 3d appz

no effort has been placed to change, make harder, or even come up with new schemes

if would be a lot different if major effort was going on to disrupt the "crackers"

not taking place, obvious yet?

:rolleyes:

[wmendez]

Was this an issue back in the SGI /IRIX days? What did SGI do different

[withanar]

I have the privilage of knowing and speaking to top people at Softimage pretty regularly, and they're quite clear on how they feel about piracy and warez... while they're in favor of having as many people using their tools as possible, they also feel (and I know) they work many long hours on constantly upgrading their tools and keeping on top of customer suggestions as much as they can, and that's worth some compensation. If they wanted everyone to have free access, they wouldn't put any effort into copy protection.

What it boils down to is there are 2 types of people. The type who sit and wait their turn in the traffic jam, and the type who zip around onto the side shoulders, pass everyone, then cut back in at the last second, thus making the traffic worse for those already waiting.

Same thing with software piracy. There are those of us who follow the rules, whether it be for student licensing, demo copies, or full-blown professional licenses, and those who create justifications, excuses, rationalizations for their actions. Nobody who follows the rules needs to rationalize anything, yet those who don't seem to have a handful of standard arguments they use to rationalize.

The most common argument is the one about how the software shouldn't be limited to only those who have money. Funny how as 3D software moved off the proprietary hardware, as cracks became pretty widespread, the average salary in the industry dropped pretty drastically. I know plenty of people who don't come from money, who had the resourcefulness to get trained in this business pretty early on, who had found themselves in a place that promised a good living, who have now lost that promise.

The other common argument is how warez is good for the software company. It's the reason for the success of Lightwave, 3DMax, and Maya. I hear this argument a lot from the users but never from the software company employees I know. If this argument is true, then let the company decide if it wants to give out licenses for free. If the company decides it's not in its best interest to give away its product, then perhaps it really isn't in the company's best interest. Meanwhile, said companies have been trimming staff and closing offices pretty regularly for a couple of years now. Profits just aren't what they used to be, yet 3D software is more widespread now than ever.

Funny how people just getting started in 3D complain about how they get exploited. Companies make them work nasty hours without compensation. People moan about interns willing to work for free who take paying jobs away from others and resulting in reduced billing rates for everyone else. Yet some of the same people have no qualms whatsoever about taking someone else's work for free in the form of software.

Software piracy steals from all of us. It reduces our industry's level of professionalism, reduces our salaries, takes money away from R&D of the software companies, slows the pace of our advancement, and keeps the cost higher for those of us who play by the rules.

The only people piracy benefits are the pirates. If everyone were a pirate, there would be no industry at all, nobody following the rules, nobody paying the bills to exploit. The rest of us have to wait our turn in traffic.

[gmask]

Originally posted by wmendez
Was this an issue back in the SGI /IRIX days? What did SGI do different

As far as I know it was not an issue. Because Irix systems each have their own unique number and because their were fewer peopel with these systems then it was less likely to get cracked although not impossible. These days for a several hundred dollars you can buy a rather powerful system but back them you weren't in the game at all unless you spent at least $10 grand or more.


The problem is that computer systems that the consumer buys are pretty weak when it comes to actually security. Putting a dongle on the computer is pointless because you can intercept that dongle once the software is loaded in local memory. You can patch, scratch it whatever. I think though that once we have cheap solid state ram that it would possible to delivery software in a protected form that would make it less vunerable to attack. Like I asked before.. is anybody bootlegging cartridge games?? The fact they they are on a cartridge makes it more difficult to be broken. The reason why software vendors aren't using a technology like that is because currently the medium would be too expensive but I think it will get cheap enough that vendors of higher priced software will have to use them to protect their investments in R&D and to insure their customers that they are only competing with those who have also paid for the software.

But as long as software is loaded on a standard computer it is vunerable and I cannot really see any security measures as being safe enough. I personally WOULD pay more for software if I knew that it would less likely to be cracked.

[Bradf0rd010]

Yes, cartridges have been hacked. They're called ROMs, maybe you've heard of them?

[gmask]

Originally posted by Bradf0rd010
Yes, cartridges have been hacked. They're called ROMs, maybe you've heard of them?

I wouldn't know :shrug: but would you not need some special hardware to do that?

[wmendez]

No, they use emulators for more info see http://www.classicgaming.com

[gmask]

Originally posted by wmendez
No, they use emulators for more info see http://www.classicgaming.com

Okay Okay but those are all CLASSIC .. does anybody still make games on cartridge?? I know that the newer systems have tried to make their discs harder to read on just any old DVDROM reader and the like.

[ggg]

Originally posted by Mazer

XSI requires a screen resolution of 1280x1024 at least, there are config files to 1024*768 but I could't get them to work on the demo because they are plugins. I'm asking for a solution to that.

XSI can work in other low rez like 1280x960, 1152x864, 1024x768, etc but evrything below 960 requires adding another pane with the weight panel shoved up in order to access the bottom GUI menus but all is accessable from top menus anyway.

But you are right the addons can't used with the demo version.

I "heard" version 3 demo will allow saves, perhaps they will allow some addons too. I understand not allowing scriopting as it could be copy pasted and used commercially but perhaps thye could still allow addons...

[Mazer]

I dont think they need to enable addons for this, they could just take those setups made by Hed Harris and others and just integrate them in the demo. How hard could it be ?:)

[ggg]

they'd have to assure that those layouts were stable and some are not and XSI officially does not support other rez but why they don't offer more layouts is rediculous to me, yes it wouldn't be hard to add them at all.
I mentioned enabling addons so that new layouts could also be downloaded as new ones became available, and new addon tools such as those on netview used.
The only downside is someone might be able to write an addon that output script command history, defeating the demo so it could be used commercially.

[flaagan]

not long after Flash 5 came out, i acquired a warez of it. the sole purpose was for me to learn the software out of interest in its abilities. a few months later through some lucky contacts i got hired to do a business card cd-rom for a small company which would contain a flash-based presentation of their product line-up. they never once asked me if the software was my own, but the day the contract was signed (which only pertained to payment and deadline) i went to Fry's and picked up my own copy of Flash 5. ironically, not long after that project was completed i stopped using Flash pretty much at all (mainly cause my interests had switched to 3d game modeling), but still have the software. i've refused requests even by close friends to leech it to them, as it is *mine*. my main reason for buying it was not concern for myself, but for the company that hired me, as they sell worldwide, and the cd would also be going worldwide. i also bought MS Frontpage 2000 at the same time (though this was out of pure annoyance at manually typing in html, which i consider a waste of time and nothing worth bragging about) and have used that very little since, as my web site serves more as a file server for w.i.p.'s from school.

oh. and as for cracking current games, i've heard of a xbox mod that allows for ripping games from the dvd to the hdd, where they are playable as if the game disc was in the drive...
as cool as this sounds, i sure as hell wouldnt do it, cause everyone knows MS' rule for modding a xbox.. you do it, your system's denied from Xbox Live completely and permanently, even if you remove the mod. not worth the $200+ investment if you ask me.

[ReneAlex]

just for the record this thread is the most sad pile of crap i ever seen in this forum...

:thumbsdow

many times in all the specific apps forums someone bring out the warez situation and this pile of nonsense is always the final product...

in the end, the price for the information is the key issue... we all (most of us, i hope) has to pay a lot for our education, then the hardware then the software... other just cant...

so if MILLIONS of people just cant even make a living with less of $ 100 a month... there is a ILLEGAL solucion... get information estimated in thousands of dollars for free in the internet, and ask for a job... (im not talking about just cutting edge 3d animation)

there is no real solution... and the industry never will do nothing to solve this "problem" not just because its impossible... its because they know that is more expensive try to end the warez than live with it...

-----------

and FYI down in the south... in america (the continent)

less of the 2% of the games sold in my country are legal...
and the rest (PC, pS2, Xbox, etc etc etc...) are "illegal" copies sold in the streed for less of $ 4... ANY GAME... and the consoles are sold in the authorizaded stores with the mod already instaled (optional)... this sucks! of course... its literally creates a not funcional game insdustry. but thousands of people get money to carry on their lives...

the software "black market" is just a few blocks away.. and cost 3 or 2 buck more (ANY TITLE) so if you (up north) think that you have a piracy problem... think twice...

-----------

final words...

IF YOU EARN (enough) MONEY WITH IT... BUY IT! :annoyed:

[ggg]

I won't be earning enough playing games to buy them so can you send us some games :)

[ReneAlex]

:p

[gmask]

>>>so if you (up north) think that you have a piracy problem... think twice...

The piracy problem is global.. If a company is on one continent and it's software or games are being pirated on another continent then it's still that companies problem.

It still doesn't make it okay.. is it okay to steal tools from your neighbor down south so that you can get practice building things to get work?

[Bradf0rd010]

You see, this is what I think we need to get away from.

Piracy is not like stealing goods.

To even get close to comparing the two, you would have to compare stealing software from a publisher to stealing tools from a store (not an individual).

You pirate software, the publisher loses a sale (which is dubious, since the majority of people I know buy something when they like it).

You steal tools, or any goods, not only does the store lose the sale, they're forced to pay for a replacement.

There are similarities, logic dictates they are not identical.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Bradf0rd010
There are similarities, logic dictates they are not identical.

Well if information is valuable and the developer of software spent x number of dollars developing the information being stolen then I do not see a difference.

Information does not grow on trees.

If you shoplift software from a store it is stealing but you say that if the software is found on the internet that it is different and that it is not stealing and that it is okay.

In your scenario. everone loses.. the developers lose, the retail outlets lose, the consumers lose because they will have to pay more for the same software.

Try applying your logic to any other aspect of life and it does not make sense.

I suppose it would be fair for students to download term papers off the internet and use them to get passing grades. Afterall they are not profiting by it, they did not actually steal anything tangible and as long as they don't get caught then it must be okay.

[Bradf0rd010]

I don't understand why you seem to want to twist what i say to suit you're view.

Firstly, I never said IP theft is not wrong. It is.

Secondly, you cannot apply the logic to other aspects of life. It doesn't work that way, that is the nature of the digital domain. Traditional doctrine falls apart if you try.

Lastly, your refusal to accept that puzzles me. Even in real life outside the digital domain, things are rarely clear cut. Would you inflict the same punishment on a bum who picks up someone else's money to buy food as someone who burgles a little old lady to fund a lavish lifestyle? By your logic, both are theft and therefore the same crime.

I suppose it would be fair for students to download term papers off the internet and use them to get passing grades. Afterall they are not profiting by it, they did not actually steal anything tangible and as long as they don't get caught then it must be okay.

And that one's easy. The arguement simply doesn't hold up. Morality aside, you would you be breaking the terms and conditions of your applying an educational institution. And in that situation you can succeed by just doing the work, you only require the tools. In this arguement, the software is the tool. A very distinct difference for those who care to see it.

Not only that, when applying that to software we come back to the same thing.

Why should those with money be afforded more opportunity to live a good life than those with less?

[gmask]

>Firstly, I never said IP theft is not wrong. It is.

Unless you cannot afford to obtain IP legally... it is okay to take it.


>>>Secondly, you cannot apply the logic to other aspects of life. It doesn't work that way, that is the nature of the digital domain. Traditional doctrine falls apart if you try.

Why exactly is that? Software is stored on disks and hardrrives are those not tangible? I'm not talking about the air we breath.

>>>Even in real life outside the digital domain, things are rarely clear cut.

In real life those who break the law and get caught typically get punished.. unless they are rich I suppose.


>>Would you inflict the same punishment on a bum who picks up someone else's money to buy food as someone who burgles a little old lady to fund a lavish lifestyle?

What law is being broken when a bum picks up money off the sidewalk? It is illegal to possess stolen property wether you knew it was stolen or not.. again I see no difference to downloading stolen software.. it does not matter wether or not you knew it was stolen and I'm certain in most cases they person downloading does know they are doing something illegal.

Oh and if a armored truck turns over and dumps money all over you are not allowed to take it.. if you get caught trying to leave the scene with arms load of cash you are stealing.


>>>Morality aside, you would be breaking the terms and conditions of your applying to an educational institution.

And you are also breaking the terms and conditions of using the software by not paying for it.

You could excuse the IP theft by saying that you are only using it for learning but again knowledge is worth something and those who pay for their education will appreciate what it is worth.. whereas those who not have to pay seem to think that most people don't have to pay or shouldn't have to pay. If you are a student you can get low student prices for software.

>>>Why should those with money be afforded more opportunity to live a good life than those with less?

Okay I'm sorry that life is not fair..everybody deserves a minimum amount of luxury.. but these people who are so poor that they cannot afford to buy even low budget software are capable of paying for a computer and internet service so why not the software?

Why not support the little guys and their software by paying for it. It is easy to thumb your nose at Microsoft and say that they won't miss the sales but there are nurmous small companies who manage to eek out a living selling their software tools. Maybe they would beable to compete if more users who could not afford the big guys would buy their software.

Software is hardly what I would call a neccessity to life anywhere.. does everyone deserve free software now? Should programmers be expected to work for free?

The thing that is annoying about this is that there are workable and cheap solutions but that is too hard for some people to accept because it is easier to take (steal) than to give (pay for) in this case.

I really don't care what people do in the privacy of their own homes or in their spare time.. but it makes a difference when people encourage this behaviour by making justifications. Maybe it is harmless to the large corporations but I have heard very little here to convince me that anyone who can excuse piracy has any concern for the smaller companies and any desire to do the right thing.

You'll say ..it is wrong to take IP but then go on at length about how the underprivaledged deserve the IP for free because they cannot afford to pay for it. That they deserve to beable to compete with those who did pay for it.. where's the cut off.. I certainly did not come from money.. my parents were teachers. Most of the graphics people I know aren't rich and many never went to school or didn't finish.

Maybe if you really feel compassionate about this you should find somebody who is poor and train them to do your job and then quit so that they can have your job. Is that fair enough?

[Bradf0rd010]

Unless you cannot afford to obtain IP legally... it is okay to take it.

While you've stopped twisting my words for a second, now you're completely ignoring me. I said, obtaining IP illegally is never right. Sometimes justifiable, but never the preferred method.

Software is stored on disks and hardrrives are those not tangible?

Storage media, yes. IP, no. Your arguement would be stronger were you not to use superfluous points to support it.

In fact, come to think of it, it is nearly impossible to 'steal' software. At worst you're using it without a license.

So in effect, comparing the two is like saying driving without a license is no different to stealing a car. (Notice I say 'like'. I am aware that this is a simile.)

In real life those who break the law and get caught typically get punished.. unless they are rich I suppose.

What law is being broken when a bum picks up money off the sidewalk? It is illegal to possess stolen property wether you knew it was stolen or not.. again I see no difference to downloading stolen software.. it does not matter wether or not you knew it was stolen and I'm certain in most cases they person downloading does know they are doing something illegal.

So you're happy to admit that money does afford you better opportunies in life?

Someone puts a note down for a second, a bum runs off with it while their back is turned.

Go to the police with that demanding that they track this guy down, what do you think they're going to do?
Ask them to find a guy who burgled your grandma, you're more likely to get the desired response.

And you are also breaking the terms and conditions of using the software by not paying for it.

Yes. But the distinction is simple.
Cheat on exams and you're mis-representing your ability. You're getting something you obviously don't deserve.
Use cracked software, you're using something you can't afford.



Yes, there are workable, (relatively) cheap solution from smaller developers, and I say great. If they're good, get them. Great for the hobbyist, or someone who's going for that job at the smaller company.
But what about a company with bigger budgets? Do you think they're more likely to hire someone who can say they know X software inside out, or someone who can say they have a working knowledge of the software the company uses?
Anyone going for a job in 3D should know that talent speaks volumes over knowing every minute aspect of XSI inside out. But again. 2 people, equal ability, who's going to get the job?

And your question asking how I can say people who can afford computers and net access can't afford to buy software.
Computers are expensive. I for one have to wait for each piece I buy while I save for it. After that outlay, a few hundred in one go is hardly a drop in the ocean. And by the way, I'm still sitting here using the same computer I struggled to get 3 years ago.
On the other hand, even broadband access is what? £/$250 spread over a year? Hardly a crippling expense.

Maybe if you really feel compassionate about this you should find somebody who is poor and train them to do your job and then quit so that they can have your job. Is that fair enough?

Yes, I am passionate about it. I firmly believe bigger companies should provide full working versions of software at seriously cut down prices with an educational license.

Your suggestion. You'll probably be surprised, since it was obviously a note of sarcasm adding nothing to the debate, but I already do. If I know enough about a subject to feel comfortable giving advice about it, I encourage people to come to me so I can do just that. Since I'm self-employed, it's then simply a matter of the person with the greater ability getting the work (assuming we know the same people and put in the same bid).

[gmask]

>>>While you've stopped twisting my words for a second, now you're completely ignoring me. I said, obtaining IP illegally is never right. Sometimes justifiable, but never the preferred method.

So as long as something is digital then it is okay to take it even if the owner prefers that you pay for it. I don't really see that as a justification.

If you are talking about people needed to steal food so they don't starve to death then that's maybe one thing but this another.


>>>In fact, come to think of it, it is nearly impossible to 'steal' software. At worst you're using it without a license.

Actually people who sell disc of software are very clearly stealing as they are claiming that they have the right to sell said software and they do not. They are stealing IP and they are stealing profits. If you obtained software this way for whatever reason you are stealing as well.

>So in effect, comparing the two is like saying driving without a license is no different to stealing a car. (Notice I say 'like'. I am aware that this is a simile.)

This would make sense except that a drivers license does not give you the right to drive any car you want just like having a computer does not give you the right to use any software you can put on it. Being able to download software does not give you the right to use it. Having a licnese for one piece of software may not allow you to use that software on as many computers you like or even use it on a different computer. It totally depends on the license.


>>So you're happy to admit that money does afford you better opportunies in life?

If it didn't then why would people want or need money.

>>>Someone puts a note down for a second, a bum runs off with it while their back is turned.

If he makes nuisance of himself by doing this alot or it happens to be alot of money he will be prosecuted. Would it be okay for bums to loiter around an outdoor cafe and steal the waiters tips?


>>>Cheat on exams and you're mis-representing your ability. You're getting something you obviously don't deserve.
Use cracked software, you're using something you can't afford.

There are many things I can't afford does that mean I can just take it as long as I don't use it to represent myself.



>>>Anyone going for a job in 3D should know that talent speaks volumes over knowing every minute aspect of XSI inside out. But again. 2 people, equal ability, who's going to get the job?

I say tough titty.. if you are so talented then you should be able to work your way up and get smaller jobs and earn the money to buy the software or get a student loan to learn the software.


>>>>And your question asking how I can say people who can afford computers and net access can't afford to buy software.
Computers are expensive. I for one have to wait for each piece I buy while I save for it. After that outlay, a few hundred in one go is hardly a drop in the ocean. And by the way, I'm still sitting here using the same computer I struggled to get 3 years ago.
On the other hand, even broadband access is what? £/$250 spread over a year? Hardly a crippling expense.

For those who cannot afford computers who are more artistically talented but even poorer than yourself.. should they be given free computers and software? They must deserve it because they are poor and even though they are talented they are incapable of finding any way to use their talents to earn money. If there is a will there is a way to make in this business and still maintain some level of ethics. But if you are talking about people who just want to make computer ar tint heir basement for their own amusement then I don't why there is such a long thread. Why would you need the high end software unless you intention was to get work and make a profit?



>>>Yes, I am passionate about it. I firmly believe bigger companies should provide full working versions of software at seriously cut down prices with an educational license.

They do this allready so why justify crack?

>>>Your suggestion. You'll probably be surprised, since it was obviously a note of sarcasm adding nothing to the debate, but I already do. If I know enough about a subject to feel comfortable giving advice about it, I encourage people to come to me so I can do just that. Since I'm self-employed, it's then simply a matter of the person with the greater ability getting the work (assuming we know the same people and put in the same bid).

I'm making no statement about wether or not to give out advice. I'm not an elitest. I help people all the time. I have bid against other people that I knew unwittingly or have been asked to make bids with alot of other artists at the same time. But if I get a lead I'm not going to announce it to everybody because there might be somebody better for it than me if that's what you are saying. If you do that you will never succeed to make a living. Nor would you call up your competitor and give them tips on how to win the job.

Time and time again I have seen the end result of many bids become utter garbage so the industry is not entirely run by what is the most creative or what looks the best to artists. There are other factors but being talented does not grant you the right to use illegally obtained software. Many here have said that even though they felt that hobbyist should feel guilt free abouting using warez that those who make a profit should pay and that includes those whose intention is to join the workforce.

[Nurb'd]

There really is no excuse except lazy people. I worked hard and saved every day when I was younger to buy LW (6 at the time). No one gave me anything. I bet you I appreciate it 100% more then someone who does not pay a dime.

I have been saving for well over a year so I can be able to buy Maya or XSI. Instead of going with friends to Walt Disney (etc) I put that money in the bank. If my boss knew I was using illegal software I would be fired quicker then I could blink. You can not justify taking the easy route.

With all the learning editions and free programs (wings, blender, milkshape) , cheap software there is no excuse. Get a job and save money. Use a free app if you have to while you save.

These people with all this cracked software I bet can not use half of it. Someone with everything has nothing.

:shame:

[Bradf0rd010]

Really, gmask? Please, point out the links to XSI 3.0 with nothing disabled and a MAYA that produces works with no watermark.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Bradf0rd010
Really, gmask? Please, point out the links to XSI 3.0 with nothing disabled and a MAYA that produces works with no watermark.

Well if you just want to learn or are just an enthusiast what is the problem with either of those issues.. plus you can buy educationally licences for both those programs if you are a student.

[Bradf0rd010]

Last time I checked, an XSI license was $500 per year (IIRC).
That's a third of what I would pay on rent alone.

[Nurb'd]

"Yes, I am passionate about it. I firmly believe bigger companies should provide full working versions of software at seriously cut down prices with an educational license."

Who are you? A company who paid the money, hired the people, does not owe you or anyone else a damn thing. Where does this socialistic crap come from? Do not come on a forum declaring why a company owes YOU a thing. Most companies do offer a educational license at very cut down prices. If company x does not then too bad. They have every right to do what they want with their product.

Not only do some people want to steal they want to be able to stand up and declare companies almost give their software away. What a joke

[Nurb'd]

Originally posted by Bradf0rd010
Last time I checked, an XSI license was $500 per year (IIRC).
That's a third of what I would pay on rent alone.

Then get better skills and a better job. When I was 18 I worked two jobs just to attend college three days a week. Colleges are full of people sacrificing for their future.

I have no pity.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Bradf0rd010
Last time I checked, an XSI license was $500 per year (IIRC).
That's a third of what I would pay on rent alone.

Last time I checked tuition for most schools was a helluva lot more than that every semester and if you were attending one with a CG program I would expect them to have a computer lab.


You said earlier that paying several hundred dollars a year for internet was not too much to deal with so why is this too much?

[JDex]

Where does it say anything about $500 "per year"?

From all of the info I have researched it is $500 period.

If you have seen anything about "per year" please post a link. I am working three jobs at the moment to save for the advanced package ($795) but if it is a per year cost, I may reconsider the purchase.

P.S.: If you wanna be a pirate, your a butt-pirate... argh. Get a job and make something of yourself.

[ggg]

Originally posted by Bradf0rd010
Last time I checked, an XSI license was $500 per year (IIRC).
That's a third of what I would pay on rent alone.
$795 PERMANENT license

[Bradf0rd010]

You could answer your own question simply by thinking about it.

Notice I used the past tense. To get a student license of most (if not all) software you have to prove you're a student. ie you can't get a student license if you're not in full time education. Most students use the labs for the net, and for home use a connection would be split betwen as many as 5 people, lowering the cost to £/$50 per year.
Labs have opening hours. Why should someone have to restrict the amount of work they can put in when they could just as easily work at home? Why not award a 'floating license' to colleges/unis?

Then get better skills and a better job. When I was 18 I worked two jobs just to attend college three days a week. Colleges are full of people sacrificing for their future.

Good for you. I hope it worked out for you. But for those attending university for 20-30 hrs per week, they have time for at most 1 pt job. Maybe I just got it wrong while I was there, squandering money on luxuries like food and heat.

I have no pity

I didn't ask for it, thanks.

[gmask]

Originally posted by ggg
$795 PERMANENT license

Is that as long as you are a student or as long as you don;t use it for commerical work after you graduate? Sounds like a great deal either way.

[Nurb'd]

You have this "they owe me, poor me" mentality. Why should a company go out of their way to give someone who is not willing to work his ass off what they have laboured on for years?

I could not afford to go to class 20/30 hours. Sounds like you were better off then I was. I had to work two jobs and use all my free time to attend class. I lived at home so I was lucky enough to save some money. I knew a guy who worked two jobs, had to take out a loan, and handle paying his own way. He did it and I see no reason or excuse someone else can not.

Why are you any better then someone who has to use that lab only at open times?

The companies do not have to offer a student deal at all.

Tell me this.. why do you HAVE to use XSI/MAX/Maya? Why can you not learn on the learning editions? That is what they were made for. Do you think R&D is cheap? You want it for next to nothing.

[Bradf0rd010]

I said 'IIRC'. Maybe they changed it, but I was probably just wrong. It was about 2 yrs ago.

From the softimage site.

Upon graduation, you will have the choice to keep your student version for non-commercial use, or upgrade it to a full production license. You'll receive a $495USD credit on the list price of the commercial license.

You have this "they owe me, poor me" mentality.

That is BS. And 20-30hrs per week was not my choice, it was madatory. You don't do that, your loan entitlement is revoked and you're out on your ass.

And

P.S.: If you wanna be a pirate, your a butt-pirate... argh. Get a job and make something of yourself.

I don't have disposable cash, therefore I'm just lazy? wtf?

No offence, but **** you.

P.S. btw, it's 'you're'. Learn to spell.

P.P.S. If you were actually joking, disregard everything up to 'And'. :D Let's not turn this into a flame war.

[gmask]

>>>Why should someone have to restrict the amount of work they can put in when they could just as easily work at home?

Most everybody i knew in art school who did all nighters and used the labs every waking hour is actually out there doing something relative to their studies. Those who showed up at the last minute are not.


>>>Why not award a 'floating license' to colleges/unis?

Some schools buy dongles that you have to check out. Therefore I suppose you could work at home if you wanted to.


When I first got into this there were very few schools at all and if you wanted to use Softimage you were going to spend at least $7 grand to buy an Indie to run it on let alone whatever it cost to license it.

All of this stuff is so very cheap in comparison to then.. how much more so should it be to make you happy?

Back to the issue of comparing two possible employees. There are other factors besides talent. I think it is rare that two people are so similairily talented that it would come down to purely a who is more trained. If you need a freelancer immediately who can hop in and work right away then both should be well trained. Other factors are are they pleasant to deal with or who is more experienced or who wants less money.

I think that piracy in general lowers the wages because it increaes the number of possible candidates who while they may not be the most talented are competent and willing to work for less.

Some companies if they are hiring a fulltime staff member shoudlbe willing to pay for and train talent. Some have to because they still use proprietary software although there are very few like that these days.

If you are talented but have a hard time getting work consider the other reasons why that may be besides not being able to buy cheap software or basically highend software for free as you would have it. I have know some really talented people who were anti-social, hard incredibly bad breath, generally smelled, allways undermine themselves in interviews or cannot communicate well. I have met a few people who are not talented or even compitent but still seem to beable to talk their way into about any position.

[JDex]

Well I go to school 26 hrs per week, and I have time for an evening job, and two weekend jobs... sounds like you have other priorities. Guess that makes theft okay?

[Bradf0rd010]

You wanna bust your ass, go right ahead.

I did my time at uni, I held down various jobs, I did unpaid work because of various motivations, sometimes went out of my way to help people out and helped the odd old lady across the road. I know what it's like, but it seems you're interested in throwing mud rather than debate.

I could let this descend into an all out flame war, but I think I've made my points. If they've made no effect by now, I think all elaboration will serve to do is bait you further.

KTHXBYE

[Nurb'd]

No one is going to say it is ok to steal Brad no matter if it is some bytes on a screen or something with real world properties.

The time the company invests in r&d on these high end tools are extensive.

You want free access but what if there was? You can say bye to those tools like wings, am, others because why use them?

You know what if I invested in making a application for chemistry. Let us say I spent massive $ and two years of my life. Let me say that my program is much better then a existing program. Should I not benefit when people are going to benefit from my program?

The market dictates price. If people were not willing then you would see companies fold, houses close, and programs like XSI would not be worth making. People pay because the product is a tool some build their entire life around.

What exactly are you saying here? That someone not in school should be able to get a copy for $500 or even cheaper? are you kidding me? If that was the case something like XSI would not even exist.

[ggg]

Originally posted by Bradf0rd010
I said 'IIRC'. Maybe they changed it, but I was probably just wrong. It was about 2 yrs ago.

Sorry, but then why mention it? It doesn't validate any point, quite the opposite as so shows no research in the topic at hand, espcially if its in the past tense. The current facts are nine letters and three mouse clicks away :) but I see you quoted the page yourself.
BTW some school do offer floating licneses and remote access for home users.

Originally posted by gmask
Is that as long as you are a student or as long as you don;t use it for commerical work after you graduate? Sounds like a great deal either way.
It is a permanent license for non-commercial use.

or $495 for essentials peramanent.
"Upon graduation, you will have the choice to keep your student version for non-commercial use, or upgrade it to a full production license. You'll receive a $495USD credit on the list price of the commercial license."

Originally posted by JDex
Where does it say anything about $500 "per year"?

From all of the info I have researched it is $500 period.

If you have seen anything about "per year" please post a link. I am working three jobs at the moment to save for the advanced package ($795) but if it is a per year cost, I may reconsider the purchase.

The per year was misinformation:
eduXSI (http://www.softimage.com/Education/XSI/BuyingSoftware/student_teacher.htm)
The perm license also existed a few months before they put it up on their website last year.
I have a perm license.

[Bradf0rd010]

Shall I recap?
I think I should.

I would love to see freely available versions of up to date software like XSI (with no cuts or compromise) that can be obtained with a strictly non-commercial license, but hey, I know it's not going to happen.

I'd be very happy with the same at a seriously cut down price, with again a strictly non-commercial license and a further reduction for students in full time education. Which I feel is not unrealistic (in most cases).

If someone wants to use a cracked copy for non-commercial use, I'm not going bust them. It's just not worth the effort.

If I find out someone's using a cracked copy for commercial use, that's an entirely different story. I may even go out of my way to bust them myself.

In the case of an actual prosecution for commercial use with no license, I'd like to see not only whatever sentence the judge sees fit to dish out but a mandatory fine on top, the proceeds of which go directly to the publisher/developer.

And just FYI, the last version of Soft on my machine was Experience (it sadly had to go when the resources were needed for other things). Everything I use commercially, I own. Most before I used commercially.

I believe it will not destroy the market for other low cost/free tools. Look at the OS market. Why do people keep buying Windows? It's expensive, it's crap, and Linux is free. Because (the fact that most people don't know any different or need it aside) it's easy. There are different levels of user that different software caters to.

I've actually seen this in action.

[gmask]

>>>Linux is free.

You can get the free distribution of Linux but you want professional support or a qualified system for running Maya (for example) you need to buy a version from Redhat. Still better than windows.

Linux would catch on if more major developers would port to it but whatever reason.. I guess the lack of users willing to pay for proven software... they don't.

[JDex]

Yeah ggg, that's what I had read.

BTW I don't think I'm throwing mud... I work extremely hard to have legitimate access to the things I am interested in and passionate about... I'm glad to bust my ass because it provides far more satisfaction.

If you have other priorities, thats great, I'm happy for you... but don't make excuses for people pirating, there is no justification for it.

If your a hobbyist, pay for your hobby.

If your a student, pay for your studies.

The shades of gray between theft of a car and theft of a license are "bs", because it's not driving with no license, it's driving with a stolen license and trying to pass it of as your own, which is a federal crime.

[steverage]

Im a student studying computer animation at uni, we're studying xXSi as the major 3d package. I kno ppl on here are saying pay for yr licence / education but i am - i *really* am - Im gonna be about £15,000 in debt when i leave!

The uni has about 80 licences and so why is it such a bad thing for me to have copy to practice on at home? Surely its a good thing for Avid - Im learning their software and should I decide to be a freelancer XSi would be my only choice of software and I would of course buy the full product - I want to support Xsi - its so class. Also, people ask what I use - instantly I become a product rep for XSi!!

It comes down to this: Im a student studying and practising in my house what Ive learnt at uni using a top notch piece of software. I cant afford any version of XSi - period. But I will be able to soon.

WAREZ; if you ask me if the ppl using it, who COULDNT afford to buy it, are using it for training purposes then wheres the problem?
Im completely against ppl using warez versions commercially - some poor sod spent ages sorting those prop guides so we can all have our lives made easier - lets back him up :D

[gmask]

>>>WAREZ; if you ask me if the ppl using it, who COULDNT afford to buy it, are using it for training purposes then wheres the problem?

Because it they are using to train then they are planning to use it for commerical gain. Besides that it is still illegal use of the software regardlss of your intentions. If you want to use it for free then you have to take advantage of what the vendors supply you with for either student prices or their learning versions.

If you wanted to go intot he printing business do you think a printing company would give you the equipement to use for free while you learn? No. Again this comes down to people thinking that software companies owe them use of the software and a dim view of and lack of respect for intellectual property rights. There is very little in this world that comes for free. Just because it is easy to illegally obtain software does not justify it.

[steverage]

I see what you mean - but surely its more beneificialto Avid in the long term as the guy would go on to purchase the FULL version and go on to produce commercial work.

...a dim view of and lack of respect for intellectual property rights.
I completely respect IP rights - thats why Im against it being used for commercial gain - I could never afford to buy it (at the moment) and wouldnt be using it to make money so surley me alone in my own world in my room is not harming Avid?

Let me re-iterate - im completely against Warez stuff being used for commercial gain. But like I said - personally if I could afford any version of the licence Id buy it. When Im making millions for ILM I'll buy 2!!

[gmask]

>>I see what you mean - but surely its more beneificialto Avid in the long term as the guy would go on to purchase the FULL version and go on to produce commercial work.

Noone is doing any software company a favor by using their software illegally. If anything.. since all software ultimately is violated I don't really see how it benefits any company. again this is just an imaginary reason to say that it is okay. No software company is go to say that this is okay with them.


>>>completely respect IP rights - thats why Im against it being used for commercial gain - I could never afford to buy it (at the moment) and wouldnt be using it to make money so surley me alone in my own world in my room is not harming Avid?

There seems to be this assumption that simply having access to software insures that you are employable when it does not. Again I don't think this subject would be a hotbed if people who pirated software ionluy used it for their amusement. What I am saying that justifying under ANY pretext encourages people to go a step further and to cross the line that everybody here agrees upon. Plus few see how this effects all of our incomes. If somebody is talented artiscally I could think of many ways they could prove it without taking something that is not theirs to take.

[JDex]

Maybe in some respects it's more benificial to Avid, however...

You're going to university... you (or your parents) are spending a lot of money for you to go there and gain the skills necessary to be a CG professional.

30,000 kids download the software thru kazaa, spend a lot of time "playing with it" and get good enough to do so things at a mediocre level, then get a job a studio who can polish their skills and pay them a cut-rate salary... to compete with those theifs you have to be willing to do superior work at a lesser price (not as low, but lesser). Eventually the industry gets even more saturated than it presently is and the industry suffers...

Your investment in education is lessened, not in usefulness but definitely in value.

justmy2cents

JDex

[gmask]

Originally posted by JDex
Maybe in some respects it's more benificial to Avid, however...



It's no more beneficial to Avid than another company.. But I think that software companies should consider raising their prices because then it may make it easier to spot who is using the illegal software. Obviously a 16 year old will not have access to software that costs $20k unless they are using the proper learning version.

Since we have been coming back to XSI because it's learning version does not allow you to save. Maya's does.. and I think they have toned down the watermarks. If XSI allowed you to save in a learning version format then there would not be any reason to gripe would there? You get to learn for free and commercial vendors can rest assured that not just anybody can use their software with a self service loan or five finger discount..maybe a mouse click discount is more appropriate.

[JDex]

Agreed... save is mucho importioso...

But they would lose money, because I wouldn't be buying the student edition anytime soon if the public edition could save.

but that's neither here nor there...
:)

[gmask]

Originally posted by JDex
Agreed... save is mucho importioso...

But they would lose money, because I wouldn't be buying the student edition anytime soon if the public edition could save.

but that's neither here nor there...
:)

Well I suppose like the Maya educational version (not the PLE)would allow you use your files in the commerical version.

I see no reason why the free version can't be somewhat limited. Afterall beggars can't be choosers ;-)

[Nurb'd]

You can download the very highly respected houdini (17k) for free and get free online training. It renders at 640*480 and allows saves. It has a very small watermark at the very right bottom off the screen. You can use the FULL application. They have endorsed allowing people to make demo reels with the apprentice learning version to seek emplyment.

That is just one example

I am sorry but I see no excuse

[Soeren Nielsen]

*cough* saint *cough*

BS

[Nurb'd]

How do you enjoy that tech support "keeper of the hair doodles?"

[stefkeb]

I'd like to add a few things ;)

I am an architect and work at the university (department of Architecture) and (partly) teach AutoCAD and 3ds VIZ.
---
Last year, Autodesk had a temporary action for it's student versions: about $25 for AutoCAD (2 year license). We sold quite a few of them (about 40). The regular price for the student version is about $110, which only one student has bought.

This year the pricing was similar ($35 for two years) and now also for VIZ4. I ordered about 30 of them for the students. But I get the feeling that this price is about the most they are willing to pay.

I strongly believe that this is a very fair price and license.

---
A few years ago, I was an independent architect and bought the full commercial version of ArchiCAD. But the year before that, I had used a copy of AutoCAD, from my student days... which was a "copy-from-a-friend".

The fact is, most of the people I graduated with, that became professional architects, eventually bought a commercial license of AutoCAD (after about a year), because that was the tool they knew and had used in school.
So I think the fact they were able to use a cracked copy before had a real influence on choosing a commercial tool! This directly influences sales.

---
There is a very large difference in license pricing between countries. ArchiCAD is about $4000 in the States and about $6500 where I live. And they are usually not cheaper in the poorer countries. I mean, I could afford it (repaid the loan in about two years), but when people earn just a fraction of this, they are never able to buy it.

So I don't think this pricing is fair.

---
Warez are strange:
They are easy to get, yet very few people who have them, actually use them. They "collect" them at most.

I know someone working for a major 3D-company who used cracked versions when doing a demo, because they boot faster and don't rely on cumbersome license servers. The copy protection is often very user-unfriendly!

I now also use a student version of VIZ4 (which uses the so-hated C-Dilla protection) and had to re-register about 4 times in one year. And always when trying to transfer a license to the newly installed PC. I really start to like dongles!

Don't you think legal users would prefer a non-protected version?

Let's see that the XSI v3 Experience can save files. I might as well try it again.

[gmask]

>>>The fact is, most of the people I graduated with, that became professional architects, eventually bought a commercial license of AutoCAD (after about a year), because that was the tool they knew and had used in school.
So I think the fact they were able to use a cracked copy before had a real influence on choosing a commercial tool! This directly influences sales.


What influences sales to students who go on to be professionals is that fact that they studied a particular software package in school. Did you have a choice of software .. it seems to be that most schools will focus on one piece of software for a specific purpose.


>>There is a very large difference in license pricing between countries. ArchiCAD is about $4000 in the States and about $6500 where I live. And they are usually not cheaper in the poorer countries. I mean, I could afford it (repaid the loan in about two years), but when people earn just a fraction of this, they are never able to buy it.
So I don't think this pricing is fair.

It would make sense to me that it would at least cost the same no matter what country you lived in. I guess one issue might be currency exchanges.

What exports are cheaper in the countries that they are exported to than the ones they are exported from? Computers and hardware aren't. In many cases they are more expensive if they are imported. Consider also that if the program has to be translated or if support is expected to be given in mulitple languages that cost the developer more. Also if you ship "shrinkwrapped" software to foreign countries where it will retail for less what prevents that same software from being sold back to the country it originated for less than it would sell there retail?



>>>I know someone working for a major 3D-company who used cracked versions when doing a demo, because they boot faster and don't rely on cumbersome license servers. The copy protection is often very user-unfriendly!

I have heard this too...

>>>>I now also use a student version of VIZ4 (which uses the so-hated C-Dilla protection) and had to re-register about 4 times in one year. And always when trying to transfer a license to the newly installed PC. I really start to like dongles!

I think that better and more convienient hardware security protection could be developed.

>>Don't you think legal users would prefer a non-protected version?

Well most software isn't.. we are mainly talking about specialized and high cost software. I think though in not so distant future that we may start to see more program specific hardware acceleration. In that sceneaario you pay mroe for spped and you get hardware.. that solves the problem. Studnet sor enthusiasts will just have to use the unaccelrated version if they can't afford the hardware.. This is speculative but this issue is neutralized when we are talking about hardware.


>>Let's see that the XSI v3 Experience can save files. I might as well try it again.

Since so many have said that being able to get "warez" helps the software companies by allowing potential buyers try it out then if that were true and the software companies agreed then having learning versions that allow you to save and have minimalized water marks will become a standard. The importance here is that the software compnaies need to have those who are seriously interested go through them to get access. This improves their market research and therefore improves their product. They should have the control .. it is their domain to grant access.

[Soeren Nielsen]

you mean preaching, or tech support ?

[ggg]

Originally posted by gmask
[B>>>I know someone working for a major 3D-company who used cracked versions when doing a demo, because they boot faster and don't rely on cumbersome license servers. The copy protection is often very user-unfriendly!

I have heard this too... [/B]
fairly common and even recommended by some support when things like renders stops, or distributed redering doesn't work or # of licenses allowed is less than licensed for etc. its not really a dirty secret.

If licensing gets too complex it could cost too much to support and too much in lost customers due to frustration.
But I do think if cracking can be made more difficult, even if it just takes more time, and is done without more licensing loss and slowed performance then bring it on, I think when XSIs user base expands, that for smaller competing houses that cracks will become a real issue. I am guessing that Mayas entry into the lower markets even with their lower price will ironically cause far more commericial use of cracks to compete.
If no adverse effects or inconveniences, like online registering, are caused by stonger licensing schemes, then I think it should be done. The experience CDs of Houdini Maya and XSI (if ver3 saves) should be enough to attract new users and offer an evaluation and way to learn.
At some point if the user base of XSI grows significantly and the price of XSI doesn't come down, its *possible* the user base may want better licensing.

[gmask]

>>>But I do think if cracking can be made more difficult, even if it just takes more time, and is done without more licensing loss and slowed performance then bring it on


Liek I said before .. we will be moving into an area soon I think where getting realtime performance will require specializd hardware or add-on cards for systems for the very highend and if hardware is required for core operations you can't crack that. I also think that solid state memory preloaded with licensed software may be a solution as well. There will be some extra expense. Current annoyances have to do with the weaknesses of the platform like Windows and it's implmentation of IP addressing etc. Most computers now have USB ports whereas a few years ago there wasn't and many Mac dongle users had a transition period and needed to exchange dongles. There have also been problems with too many dongles and bad connections.

But really something has to be done.. the prices of the software can't just keep getting lower and lower. Somebody has to pay for the R&D.

[ggg]

Originally posted by gmask
>>>But I do think if cracking can be made more difficult, even if it just takes more time, and is done without more licensing loss and slowed performance then bring it on


Liek I said before .. we will be moving into an area soon I think where getting realtime performance will require specializd hardware or add-on cards for systems for the very highend and if hardware is required for core operations you can't crack that.

hmmm... I recall a trick yearsa ago using an amiga on reboot of SGIs and dicking around with the prom to fake clone a system even with the hardware footprint. Who knows, maybe I was fooled into thinking it worked ;)

Originally posted by gmask
>>>Somebody has to pay for the R&D.
agreed and thankfully XSI and Houdini are maintaining their price, I don't want to see our industry commodified and not about cutting edge, or I may as well go back to a trade where I already get just about as much satisfaction and reward, fortunately NV looks like they are now making highend cards...

[ggg]

Originally posted by gmask
>>>
Liek I said before .. we will be moving into an area soon I think where getting realtime performance will require specializd hardware or add-on cards for systems for the very highend
sounds like DS was supposed to be, feature and performance level based on HW, but not after Avid took over :(

[gmask]

Originally posted by ggg
hmmm... I recall a trick yearsa ago using an amiga on reboot of SGIs and dicking around with the prom to fake clone a system even with the hardware footprint. Who knows, maybe I was fooled into thinking it worked ;)


That's not what I'm talking about.. it's not hardware security but that the software is relying on hardware like it relies on the CPU.. you have to have one. If the software is dependant on specialized hardware you'd have to manufacture the hardware to get more than your licensed copy. This is only goign to work with very expensive software.. under a thousand dollars and it won't be worth it.

[ggg]

yes I knew what you were talking about, thats why I mentioned DS in the 2nd post

[gmask]

Originally posted by ggg
yes I knew what you were talking about, thats why I mentioned DS in the 2nd post

I'm not familiar with DS.. so what happened to it?

[ggg]

http://www.avid.com/products/ds/
http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Discuss/ArchiveList.asp?T=SOFTIMAGE|DS&A=ds
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2002/12_dec/reviews/cw_aviddshd_pete.htm
although it does have 2 levels now, standard and HD, it was supposed to, according to some previously at SI, offer more levels including a fairly affordable entry one, but perhaps the moores law theory hasn't caught up yet enough or perhasp the high end profit is more attractive to avid. dunno :)

BTW the crack of DS was floating around on hotline for while, but of course it would be useless for real editing and RT keying without the DS HW so its likely just another collectors item.(although the HW used to be not that special and now is mostly CPU)

HW emulation or a trick to use other HW could also be a work around for the HW idea although with obvious performance hits, but at 100's a seat some might try it.

I can see it being cool to learn it on a laptop, I have lost all my DS skills over time and lack of availability :( but I still promote strong licensing for $ to advance our products.

[stefkeb]

Originally posted by gmask
What influences sales to students who go on to be professionals is that fact that they studied a particular software package in school. Did you have a choice of software .. it seems to be that most schools will focus on one piece of software for a specific purpose.

We learned AutoCAD in the classroom and it is widely used in our profession, but this leads to people not investigating other solutions. I did and chose something else (after working with AutoCAD at school and then about a year professionally at an architects office), but I'm not the majority...

Now I give a part of these exercices myself (still in AutoCAD ;) ) and try to show the students that it is "just a CAD tool" and that there are other tools, but since they have to do the exercise in AutoCAD, they need it. It's available in the class, but a lot of them do the work at their own place, so they want the software as well. I sell them the student version (I order them with Autodesk and a local distributor) but I know that most of them use a cracked copy... And it is so easy to get...


StefkeB said: There is a very large difference in license pricing between countries. ArchiCAD is about $4000 in the States and about $6500 where I live. And they are usually not cheaper in the poorer countries. I mean, I could afford it (repaid the loan in about two years), but when people earn just a fraction of this, they are never able to buy it.
So I don't think this pricing is fair.
Gmask said: It would make sense to me that it would at least cost the same no matter what country you lived in. I guess one issue might be currency exchanges.


1 $ = about 1 EURO
We have about 21% additional taxes to pay (but the price quoted is without taxes)

ArchiCAD is a European CAD-software (made in Hungary).
The translated Dutch version is not available anymore, as it was too expensive to produce.
The German version is even more expensive (about $8000).
It is not based on "fairness" but purely on the market: they are able to sell it at that pricepoint and that is the only reason.
The price has been about the same for the last 10 years or so.

The cracks for the PC-versions of ArchiCAD are very easy to find, but there are almost no cracks available for MAC-versions.

A lot of the succes of AutoCAD (and max etc...) is because it is so easy to download. Or you can order the demo-version and use a keygen and generate your own license. No cracking, a full version including tutorials, help files, maps etc...

And frankly said, after re-registering VIZ4 the fourth time I was thinking that it would be so easy to use an illegal copy... even when I only use a cheap student version.

[ThE_JacO]

Originally posted by ggg

although it does have 2 levels now, standard and HD, it was supposed to, according to some previously at SI, offer more levels including a fairly affordable entry one, but perhaps the moores law theory hasn't caught up yet enough or perhasp the high end profit is more attractive to avid. dunno :)


DS DID come out with a 3rd and less expensive level :)

it's called HD editor and it goes for about 90k (opposed to the 150k of the normal HD).

and btw if anybody thinks 90+ k for an app is crazy have a look at some of the competition going for pricetags staring frmo 140k :)

[ggg]

hey thats not cheap, I got figures of 16k or even possibly 9k when DS came out as one day possible entry levels, but I agree that compared to other solutions its "cheap" and I do respect the prises required to maintain r&d at that level.

I have heard a few different but incomplete answers. What happened to the idea of merging the 2d/3d pipelines and integrating the their production with DS?

[gmask]

Originally posted by ggg
hey thats not cheap, I got figures of 16k or even possibly 9k when DS came out as one day possible entry levels, but I agree that compared to other solutions its "cheap" and I do respect the prises required to maintain r&d at that level.

I have heard a few different but incomplete answers. What happened to the idea of merging the 2d/3d pipelines and integrating the their production with DS?

So for these prices do you get any hardware? That's alot to ask for just editting software.. like Avid for example you are buying a hardware system and the software.

[ThE_JacO]

Originally posted by ggg
hey thats not cheap, I got figures of 16k or even possibly 9k when DS came out as one day possible entry levels, but I agree that compared to other solutions its "cheap" and I do respect the prises required to maintain r&d at that level.

I have heard a few different but incomplete answers. What happened to the idea of merging the 2d/3d pipelines and integrating the their production with DS?

Altho it's widely ignored DS has always been capable to load 3D scenes straight into its interface.
till now SI|3D scenes, something's gonna change soon anyway, in both directions 2D pipeline and 3D one.

DS has always had the same amount of HW other Avid systems do a BoB, and sometimes an additional board (btw Gmask DS is called Avid|DS since a while now :) ).

and altho it can seem expensive "for a piece of SW" ,and i could maybe agree up to a certain point, it's not a product line selling thousands of copies every year, that market segment is well used to way higher prices, and the return on investments on that kind of product is way higher then it is on more massified things like 3D in general or premiere.
If you want something of the league of DS and its competitors into a market that only will buy that many boxes... that's the price.

edit: re-reading i noticed the post seems a bit sarcastic, that was not the intention.
bear with me and the degradation of my english (it's almost 2AM here)

[gmask]

>>>Altho it's widely ignored DS has always been capable to load 3D scenes straight into its interface.
till now SI|3D scenes, but something's gonna change soon, in both directions 2D pipeline and 3D one.

I remember back in 1996 or something.. there was a link between Mx and Quantel Editbox where you could manipulate the camera in a Max scene from editorial. Course with Quantel systems you are buying hardware for the most part. They still seem to be in business. I dunno whatever happened to the MAAX link thingy.



>>DS has always had the same amount of HW other Avid systems do a BoB (btw Gmask DS is called Avid|DS since a while now :) ).

Urg.. but you knew what I meant ;-)

[ggg]

Originally posted by ThE_JacO
Altho it's widely ignored DS has always been capable to load 3D scenes straight into its interface.
i recall where the page curls came from
Originally posted by ThE_JacO
till now SI|3D scenes, something's gonna change soon anyway, in both directions 2D pipeline and 3D one.

:)


Originally posted by ThE_JacO

edit: re-reading i noticed the post seems a bit sarcastic, that was not the intention.
bear with me and the degradation of my english (it's almost 2AM here)
I just added The JacO to my ignore user list ;)

[ThE_JacO]

jeez... you people reply too fast, i couldn't even edit the post after proofreading that one reply spawned already (somehow one never notices mistakes while proofreading a preview... i guess it fits somewhere in the murphy's law corollaries).

barely the time to go and slap my dog down the bed and another reply popped out...
do you people ever leave the browser ? :)

edit:
AH ! edited just for the sake of it, and to see if anybody managed to reply in less then 30 seconds.

[ggg]

I have a couple houdini networks cooking on my old PIII 550, "a watched pot doesn't boil" but a process left unchecked might crash so I have to babysit it and browse.

[bugzilla]

Not that this is a defense of software piracy, but many people I know who use 3D packages professionally HAVE to get cracks for the 3D software that they actually own! The liscencing schemes on some of these products are so complex and buggy that in order to stay up and running some people get the crack just in case adding a new graphics card makes Max or XSI stop running.

It's a viscious circle. Still, even though I don't have the numbers to back it up, I feel that these extremely expensive high end apps loose very little revenue to piracy. Broadcast houses, gaming companies, and film animation salons all buy the commercial versions becuse they HAVE to have support and the latest patches. Most of the people who have cracked versions of XSI are probably just practicing with the program or doing little animations for fun. (I'm speaking for the U.S. market mostly. The problem of businesses using cracked software to make money may be more pronounced in some OCONUS countries.)

[Lukashi]

We got Xsi Exp, no need to pirate anymore :)

[ThE_JacO]

Originally posted by bugzilla
Not that this is a defense of software piracy, but many people I know who use 3D packages professionally HAVE to get cracks for the 3D software that they actually own! The liscencing schemes on some of these products are so complex and buggy that in order to stay up and running some people get the crack just in case adding a new graphics card makes Max or XSI stop running.

I won't comment on the warez stuff, but before stating something so strongly i'd advice about studying a bit the licensing systems.

the licensing of XSI is extremely straightforward.
click on generate keys, click on install keys and select the file.
wanna move on another box ? serve the license over the network or just move the dongle, neither the dongle or the license are locked to any unique ID in the box.

if SPM won't run on a box the warezed version, that i'v been said simply relies on an emulator, won't run either.
there is NO EXCUSE to use cracked licenses if you are entitled to legit use, those who do do it out of lazyness or because they didn't renew a MNT or upgraded, and give that reason for a justification of seeing SPM run on a box without a dongle behind.

[ggg]

Actually as mentioned in an earlier post, I was told by support a long time ago a little story about a big studio that kept its dongles in a drawer and that if I wanted distributed rendering to work to do the same, and yes, it corrected it. I could give a lot more directly exprienced, confiremd examples even form the app company, but think its best left undiscussed as it might seem to promote piracy. I agree and am very much against pirating but the point made about stabiltiy, speed and licensing and "alternatives" is accurate.

PS nice website :)

[ThE_JacO]

A long time ago it was flexLM and i could believe that :)
Considering how the licensing works, if your dongle is fine, there's no way that difference is going to take place with SPM.
if it's happening otherwise it's either a placebo effect or the dongle is screwing up (and in that case a customer is usually provided a temp dongle and license inside 12 work hours while the replacement arrives.)

[Wildfire]

Just to add my 2 cents to the whole thing, as a recently graduated student, (with a legal copy of XSI, got it before I left) the whole warez thing is a two way arguement. Without warez then most of the students would not be working that well. I mean we had 20 workstations where I went, they were P3 700, with 256mb RAM and only 300mb Virtual Memory. This was allocated to over 60 students! Also I do know many people who use warez versions of easier programmes to get hold of, ie 3DS MAX. And even though they went to school to learn XSI, because of the unavailability of it, they now use 3DS Max, so in a way it's a way for software companies to spread there wares and entice people to use there software legally, when it comes time for the to use it professionally.

In no way do I support the using of Warez for Commercial gain, but for learning, sometimes there is no other way. If it wasn't for some one getting a CD with MAX 1 on it, I would have never seen it and gotten into 3D.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Wildfire
....so in a way it's a way for software companies to spread there wares and entice people to use there software legally,

I have heard this attempt to explain how warez helps software developers but it is pretty debatable and some developer have definately taken steps to show that they do not approve of the "grassroots" distribution of their software. For the highend and really expensive 3D program most of them now have free to download learning versions or students can get fully functional discoutned versions. Developers like XSI are targetting highend studios and currently are not competing for the freelance, individual and hobbyist market so.. if users have to buy MAX because XSI is too expensive I don't think Avid really cares all that much.. at least not so much that they would like people to have their way with their software in the meantime.

[Paul L. Ming]

Hiya.

if users have to buy MAX because XSI is too expensive I don't think Avid really cares all that much.. at least not so much that they would like people to have their way with their software in the meantime.

But herein lies the rub, so to speak. If Avid doesn't care about some student/learning-guy going out and buying MAX because XSI is too expensive, they why would they care if that person is using a warez versin of their software? They've already decided they aren't getting money (the guy is buying MAX). In actuality, if Avid had a price that was the same/compareable to that of MAX, the person might have bought their software instead...so maybe Avid actual is loosing money by having a price that is too high and not because of warez.

To continue on, lets say that person who bought MAX because it was affordable gets to be fairly experienced with the software and goes on to start a company or get a job. He knows MAX, so that's what he buys...again. Now, Avid is loosing money again because there is money to be spent and it's going to MAX and not XSI because the person doesn't know how to use XSI.

Bring warez versions of both into the picture and you are at a totally level playing field. Now the person can choose the software that fits him better or has the features/stability he wants or needs. Now, when the person gets good at whatever software and starts a business or gets a job, he will be buying a copy of that software...if XSI is better, Avid gets the $. Simple as that really.

I think it's that "level playing field" that most companies don't like. If all software is "warez", then it's easy for people to test and try whatever they want with it, for as long as they need to. If your software just isn't worth $16k when another package with a few plugins can do the same job for $7k...what do you think people are going to do? That's the problem, as I see it, with "high priced" software like XSI and Maya (I'm talking about full blow versions; XSI Advanced or Maya Unlimited, for example). Software nowadays is still moving in leaps and bounds. Prices are starting to even out...but the 'big boys' who were used to being "the bestest with the mostest" are quickly becoming "the expensivest with the same-as-most-others-est". ;) I think in the end, most software of comparable 'power' will be the same price, and that price will be set by the "small fish in the pond", as they will be the ones with the lower price.

Go trueSpace! Go Real3d! Go Bryce! (er...ok, maybe not Bryce...) ;)

[gmask]

Originally posted by Paul L. Ming
In actuality, if Avid had a price that was the same/compareable to that of MAX, the person might have bought their software instead...so maybe Avid actual is loosing money by having a price that is too high and not because of warez.


You missing the point and contradiciting yourself.

For one thing it is very clear that XSI has a lot more to offer than MAX out of the box especially for highend projects. At least that's what I hear. Maya is generally considered better out of the box than MAX and it's cheaper. I'm not trying to start a software comparison but this is the first I have ever heard of people opting for Max because XSI is too expensive. If XSI is everything they say it is then it shall survive because of the work that is created by it's licensed users not the work done by freeloaders.

Bascially you argument boils down to is that they can't prevent their software from being cracked therefore it is okay. Well that's wrong. The software industry in general is trying to set in motion all sorts of law that while heinous demostrate how feed up they are with users taking liberties with their products.

Since you can now get a version of XSI that saves your file there really is no need to get warez copies and no excuse. Unless your intention is to do something that is clearly illegal like make something for profit why would you need the warez version. Avid loses out if you don't use the free version that has a watermark because otherwise if your plan is to only do free art and show it online they are not guareenteed free advertising. They deserve the advertising for allowing anybody to download the app from them.

[ggg]

Originally posted by Paul L. Ming
Prices are starting to even out...but the 'big boys' who were used to being "the bestest with the mostest" are quickly becoming "the expensivest with the same-as-most-others-est". ;)
I have always used Sidefx, SI, and AW apps and occasionally try out some of the other apps, the other apps may even have better feature/price ratios and the same features listed on a website but they just don't compare in actual use.

[Gelfling]

very true ggg

While at first glance it may seem you can do this and that just fine in every app it just does not work out.

I am not going to name application's by name but there is a world of difference when you get down and dirty.

I have myself owned a seat of Lightwave in the past and strides you have to make for something past "simple" is why everything is at the price point it is at. You have to remember most houses (excluding major houses) are only going to buy what they need to get the job done. If you see them using XSI or Maya it is because they feel they need it to achieve that vision and not because they like to give away resources.

[orion 77]

i say amen to xsi exp v3. just what the doc ordered.
i think that xsi isnt too overpriced considering its features when compared to max. its very shakey and dosent have any clear strengths and is more expensive than maya complete.
now thats an example of how companies dont do themselves any favours regarding the topic. Does discreet even have an experience cd?

the demo thing is long overdue. how can a student pass their degree if they cant have a copy at home. its russian roulette really. to expect some guy to get about 25k in debt is naive. when an education costs and then they are expected to buy software on top, not to forget photoshop, premiere and dreamweaver. the whole area has been a problem but at least the 3d companies are making efforts to solve it. Considering adobe hasnt followed suite is really unfair and they are doing themselves harm by ignoring what is taking place.

imagine what it must have been like 5 years ago?

[Vic3k]

i will never buy any software i'm not gonna make profit from. and if i know i'm gonna make profit then i would consider and that would probably require a loan but if i know i will get it back i will take the loan. i will download anything there is if i need to learn something and i wouldn't even blink the eye coz i wouldn't have bought in the first place and i'm not making profit so i have no regrets. now stop this crap. the more you talk about it them more i wanna say now "long live warez!!!"

gmask, do you ever leave cgtalk? do you sleep? do you eat, smoke? are you on crack? or steroids? do you even work? your are like verywhere around this site all the time. you must have lots of spare time, hmm i guess that comes with advancement in the industry? or does it come from unimployment?

[Wildfire]

Orion 77, man I totally agree!! There is no way a student can afford to buy a software package after they have graduated. I am abot £20K in debt at the moment and got my XSI before I graduated, (student price) still this used up the best part of one years student loan.

But I still don't use it for commercial use, just improving my portfolio

[gmask]

Originally posted by Vic3k
gmask, do you ever leave cgtalk? do you sleep? do you eat, smoke? are you on crack? or steroids? do you even work? your are like verywhere around this site all the time. you must have lots of spare time, hmm i guess that comes with advancement in the industry? or does it come from unimployment?

I make $100 an hour to argue with you doody heads ;-)

[AmbientLight]

So what is worse: using software illegally or reading forum at your employer/customers expense? :D

[gmask]

Originally posted by AmbientLight
So what is worse: using software illegally or reading forum at your employer/customers expense? :D

Using warez and reading these forums at your employers expense.. I think that would be pretty bad.. but I wouldn't know.

[AmbientLight]

That is great you're an honest person. Look, most people are adults here. And if anybody has distorted ideas about what is right and what is wrong, there's nothing you can do about it. The only way to combat piracy is by teaching kids that is just as bad as stealing anything else. You can't change anybody's mind and/or their believes after their grow up. So what is the point?

[gmask]

>>>The only way to combat piracy is by teaching kids that is just as bad as stealing anything else.

Yeah that is my point exactly and I have been repeating this over an over again and I will continue to do so as long as there are those who misundertstand the concept of intellectual property.

Most warez users really seem to take offense to the suggestion that they are stealing. Many think they are even doing the software companies a favor by using their software illegally. Somebody just stated that because they have no intention of buying the software that the software company is not losing money and therefore it is okay they that they have a warez copy of the software. Does this make sense? In no other part of your life can you getaway with this kind of logic.. it is only because of the nature of software that this kind of logic is possible. But does it make it okay or right? It certainly does not make it legal. Is it stealing? Everyone seems to agree that earning a profit while using "warez" is stealing. Even though educations typical cost money is it okay to use warez if you are only using it to learn? Of course many people want to learn it to make money. Then there is the "I'm an artist who has no intention of making money but deserves the best software available but for free". If artists were given this much credit in general I'd live off welfare and make pretty pictures for the rest of my life.

Anyway... making justifications is fine.. I doubt many will have the chance to try their's out in court and that's a good thing because in the face of the law they won't get very far.

[orion 77]

in that case. educational institutions should insist work is done in the learning editions from now on. ie exp 3. and ple.
thus the warez situation would decrease i bet. thats the problem.

as wildfire stated, he is also in debt to the tune of 20k.
now its not his fault if his uni insist on xsi now is it?
the subject is just as much the educations fault as it is the users and software companies.
in fact if the uni insists xsi then they are to blame.
or the company who hires people, they wont take a person on if they dont have knowledge of a package (usually max).
wheres the fairness there i ask????
Whereas if blender was the standard then we wouldnt be having this debate now would we.

[gmask]

Originally posted by orion 77
as wildfire stated, he is also in debt to the tune of 20k.
now its not his fault if his uni insist on xsi now is it?
the subject is just as much the educations fault as it is the users and software companies.
in fact if the uni insists xsi then they are to blame.


I'm not really sure what your point is.. I would expect that a persons choice to go to a particular institution is that they teach a particular software. Plus considering that the student license is well under a grand and it is fully functional and does not expire .. it is perfect for somebody who wants to get hired as an XSI artist. It's really not that huge of an extra expenditure and well worth it if you are serious about pursueing this career.

The thing I sense is that many poeple don't want to buy the software because going into this field is a risk. But if you go to vegas with counterfeit poker chips wether you win or lose if the Casino catches you then you are going to be in trouble.

If you are not serious enough to take the risk then what difference does it make if that means you have to use free software? Does it make the hobbyist feel like they are in the bgitime to have an illegal copy of the most expensive software on the market? Probably but that does not make it theirs to take... No.. that doesn't make sense. You have to pay to play.

I think that if you are really serious about getting a career in this field and it is hinged on a perticular piece of software that your chances for success can be measured by your wllingness to do things the right way. If you have to cheat to get there then maybe you should consider your dedication to your goals.

[orion 77]

someone who is going to a school for the software they use is narrow minded and frankly stupid. its just not feasable to specialize in a package as you are limited.
you would do that after a course in animation or multi-media surely.
so if u had spent 20k on an education could you really afford to attend a 5k course on maya. what a waste!!!
one thing i have observed is the cg scene is fickle and changes fast. to be very employable, one would have to be handy with 2 packages. now say it was xsi and maya. well you are payin out big time.

i just think that the companies have a duty to the industry, students and themselves to cater for the students ie the demo cd's. now i just hope adobe and macromedia follow suit.
and i dont mean a 30 day trial neither.

[Paul L. Ming]

Originally posted by gmask
I'm not really sure what your point is.. I would expect that a persons choice to go to a particular institution is that they teach a particular software. Plus considering that the student license is well under a grand and it is fully functional and does not expire .. it is perfect for somebody who wants to get hired as an XSI artist. It's really not that huge of an extra expenditure and well worth it if you are serious about pursueing this career.


Hiya.

I think his point was that there are virtually no schools of any quality that teach software that isn't Maya or XSI. Take Vancouver, for example. How many good 3d schools teach with MAX, Lightwave, or Cinema4D? The answere is...basically none. As a matter of fact, I can't think of one that uses something other than Maya or XSI as its 'main teaching platform'. The last somewhat decent looking cirriculum I saw for MAX in Vancouver was at Capilano College. I think they've switched to Maya and XSI, however.
That was the point. If schools gave an actual *choice* of software, concentrating on the skills and not the "Push Button A to do this in Maya"...things might be a _bit_ better. If a student (like I was) forkes over huge sums of cash, and then if basically forced to use Maya or XSI, the two most expensive apps out there, is it any wonder why so many student use warez? My tuition bill was just over $30,000....and my "educational software" purchases bumped that up another $3800 because I actually *bought* the software. I was, more or less, laughed at because I spent the cash by my fellow peers. I don't blame them, really. But $3800 for "educational software you can't use for commercial gain" is a HUGE sum of money to a student with no income for 2 years.

Anyway, just saying that I see his point. There needs to be more variety in schools. They need to stop agreeing to those restrictive 'licencing deals' (you know; 'Well, if you only use XSI, we'll knock the price down to $200 per seat...but if you use another software, you pay the full price'; that sort of thing).

[ggg]

Originally posted by Paul L. Ming

Anyway, just saying that I see his point. There needs to be more variety in schools. They need to stop agreeing to those restrictive 'licencing deals' (you know; 'Well, if you only use XSI, we'll knock the price down to $200 per seat...but if you use another software, you pay the full price'; that sort of thing).
Sorry Paul I don't want to offend a fellow CDN especialy from the Yukon, but that's not accurate excopt for perhaps someone not knowing any better and getting taken by a rep trying to make points in their territory.
In one of the only two times someone acted this way (I had a rep once try to say I didn't qualify for a higher status,) I made one call to another rep I knew at the company and it was fixed.

At one point years ago I "purchased" or recieved more seats of the three high end apps than any other school in North America according to those companies. The most I ever had to do for one 3D software company in regards to another was give them a lengthly report of student/class/seat/level use ratios. None of my friends that run CG/3D departments have ever experienced this and if they did, like me they'd know it was a personal sales persons BS trying to succeed in their territory and we'd just go over their head.

If you know of rep that said this to a school, name them. Training centers are different story but there is no policy like this for schools.

PS
I am impressed you bought the student software, so did for my masters, but $3800? you must have purchased way back when SI was 995 edu and others were higher too.

[ggg]

Originally posted by orion 77
someone who is going to a school for the software they use is narrow minded and frankly stupid. its just not feasable to specialize in a package as you are limited.
you would do that after a course in animation or multi-media surely.
i agree if it your first edu in 3D then go for the best edu not package, but if you already have some edu and a 3D app under your belt then I understand going to a school based on app, I tried to but could not find a masters program in the US 3 years ago REALLY using/teaching XSI :( just to bring it sort of back on topic

[gmask]

Originally posted by Paul L. Ming
My tuition bill was just over $30,000....and my "educational software" purchases bumped that up another $3800 because I actually *bought* the software. I was, more or less, laughed at because I spent the cash by my fellow peers.

You could look at this another way.. You could have taken one course at a local community college and still gotten the software for the edu prices then you woud have only spent $4000 instead of $33,800. You chose to go to a school to be taught the software. Hopefully your were successful in being taught.

But I have heard from many other people that even spending $4000 for a truckload of legimate software minus the formal education is too much for them. These people will never beable to start a business because you have to invest in yourself to expect to get anything in return.

How many programs did you buy? Based on edu prices I know of you could get XSI, Photoshop and a compositing program for much less than that.

I'm sorry your friends laughed at you for doing the right thing. You deserve some congratulations for showing some personal ethics. That is something that I think younger people these days should have more of.

[Paul L. Ming]

Hiya.

Softimage|3D 3.8 + upgrade to XSI. $1700 at the time
3DS MAX 3.1 $ ?? Can't remember. $1000?
Photoshop 6 (upgraded from v3). $600
DarkTree Textures (Full licence here) $500

+Oxygen GVX1 Pro (certified for Softimage). $1400

VERY expensive. I tried like hell to come up with another $1500-ish to grab Maya, but it just wasn't going to happen with me and my wife both going to school (CDIS; Me in 3D, her in Multimedia/Web). So I did use a warez version of that one while I was there. Pretty much 99.9% of the people there use warez verions. IIRC, I was easily pointed out to people as "That guy who actually bought Softimage!"... *sigh*...

[gmask]

Originally posted by Paul L. Ming
Hiya.

Softimage|3D 3.8 + upgrade to XSI. $1700 at the time
3DS MAX 3.1 $ ?? Can't remember. $1000?
Photoshop 6 (upgraded from v3). $600
DarkTree Textures (Full licence here) $500

+Oxygen GVX1 Pro (certified for Softimage). $1400

VERY expensive. I tried like hell to come up with another $1500-ish to grab Maya, but it just wasn't going to happen with me and my wife both going to school (CDIS; Me in 3D, her in Multimedia/Web). So I did use a warez version of that one while I was there. Pretty much 99.9% of the people there use warez verions. IIRC, I was easily pointed out to people as "That guy who actually bought Softimage!"... *sigh*...

Hmm i think I would have spent my money differently but ..why did you get a copy of MAX and XSI? What is darktree textures and why not make your own? You could have bought a cheaper video card?

I suppose the www.BSA.org could start sueing schools for encouraging piracy ..just kidding ;-)

[AmbientLight]

DarkTree: Procedural shaders authoring: http://www.darksim.com/

Too bad they don't have Maya or XSI plugins, I'd definitely buy it.

[gmask]

Here's a list of very interesting articles on the issue of software and music piracy ..

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-980274.html?tag=lh
http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18151.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_piracybill020731.html
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,32616,00.html
http://www.lanpartynation.com/comments.php?section=1&index=142
http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19991106piracy2.asp
http://legacy.eos.ncsu.edu/eos/info/computer_ethics/intellectual/piracy/study.html
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,2576,00.asp
http://www.kheper.auz.com/resources/computers/security/piracy.htm
http://semlab2.sbs.sunysb.edu/Users/pludlow/highnoon.html
http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,5687213%5e15306%5e%5enbv%5e,00.html
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,91744,00.asp
http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-kazaa28jan28001443,0,2705239.story?coll=la-headlines-technology
http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?page_id=technologyfirmsbat1043676439&area=news
http://www.legalday.co.uk/current/piracy.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/05/07/kazaa.software.idg/
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103807/stories/2002/05/20/solvingTheMp3PiracyIssuesByAddingResponsibilityToTheMix.html
http://www.computingjapan.com/magazine/issues/1996/may96/piracy.html
http://au.playstation.com/piracy/index.jhtml
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.05/police.htmlv
http://ecommerce.wipo.int/meetings/2000/regional/jordan/presentations/rechardt2/sld008.htm

[BartW]

Originally posted by Atyss

If you really want to contribute to stop it, I guess to report the people who distribute the softwares would be the best you can do.


Distribute ? LOL ! How about going after the people at your own company (in general, not yours specifically) and the official distributors that constantly leak software to cracking groups ?

If those two 'parties' aren't around there wouldn't be anything to download in the first place.

Besides, who gives a damn about these jerks. Once they get a job in design or 3d, they'll soon experience themselves how it is to be screwed by their own clients :scream:

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