glass render challenge

[Neil V]

I might start a war here but in my opinion C4D's Advanced render just isn't up to the standard of some of the work posted on this challenge. Take a look specifically at Mike RB's work - I have never seen Cinema render something that good.

And yes, I love Cinema and have used it extensively for a few years.

Neil V

[AdamT]

I might start a war here but in my opinion C4D's Advanced render just isn't up to the standard of some of the work posted on this challenge. Take a look specifically at Mike RB's work - I have never seen Cinema render something that good.

And yes, I love Cinema and have used it extensively for a few years.

Neil V
I've seen plenty of Cinema renders that good, but not specifically glass renders. Main problem is that Cinema doesn't have absorption, which is necessary for best quality, thick, colored glass. You can get it by using SSS in the transparency channel, but render times are glacial.

[e[dub]]

I'm working on it as we speak!

already got some nice glass going on... working on liquids.

anyone else in? I'd like to see a lot C4D renders...

[ThePriest]

']I'm working on it as we speak!

already got some nice glass going on... working on liquids.

anyone else in? I'd like to see a lot C4D renders...

I'm playing around, but I don't know if I'll post my results.

[jsls]

Cinema might not have dispersion built in but there is Spectral Magic 1.0 by Remotion that is very nice, not to mention the thin film shader, and a dispersion shader that makes nice chromatic abberations. I didnt see any thing spectacular in that thread, and Cinema can do a better job, you just need to know how to set up and light a propper "studio" enviroment just as you would when photographing glass objects, not an easy thing to do in 3D and real life!

http://www.remotion.de.vu/

[ThePriest]

']I'm working on it as we speak!

already got some nice glass going on... working on liquids.

anyone else in? I'd like to see a lot C4D renders...

I'm playing around, but I don't know if I'll post my results.



EDIT

*Glitch in the Matrix?? Don't know how it managed to post twice.

[Srek]

']I'm working on it as we speak!

already got some nice glass going on... working on liquids.

anyone else in? I'd like to see a lot C4D renders...
Thanks for this, i was hoping that someone starts to show what is possible instead of telling us why it isn't. I like a positive attitude on problems :)

Cheers
Björn

[dann_stubbs]

Thanks for this, i was hoping that someone starts to show what is possible instead of telling us why it isn't. I like a positive attitude on problems :)

Cheers
Björn

yeah! that is why i posted it - i think C4D could do a fine entry

also that doesnt' mean that a user couldn't use FR2 to try too - if they had it as not many are using the default built in render engines. but i think AR could do a fine job if the user had some knowledge of it.

dann

[danb]

Didn't Janine or Jannis, sorry i always get their names mixed up, make some great glass renders with etching and absorption?

I remember seeing a render of a blue glass vase that had flowers on it.

[AdamT]

Didn't Janine or Jannis, sorry i always get their names mixed up, make some great glass renders with etching and absorption?

I remember seeing a render of a blue glass vase that had flowers on it.
I think that was MJV.

[ThirdEye]

I think that was MJV.

No it was janine's first dvd. That said MJV had some ultracool glass back in the r7-r8 times.

[e[dub]]

I'm working on it as we speak!

already got some nice glass going on... working on liquids.

anyone else in? I'd like to see a lot C4D renders...

[Neil V]

I didnt see any thing spectacular in that thread, and Cinema can do a better job, you just need to know how to set up and light a propper "studio" enviroment just as you would when photographing glass objects, not an easy thing to do in 3D and real life!

http://www.remotion.de.vu/

I honestly don't think Cinema can do a better job than some of the superior ones on that thread. I'd love to see them. Maybe you can show me how much better Cinema can do it?

Neil V

[Simon Wicker]

well i downloaded the obj file and it is a horrible default conversion! i've had a look at the original maya file and it is a lot better but i've had to convert all the nurbs surfaces to polys myself and i'm currently going through checking all the normals, setting correct edge breaks for the phong shading.

at this rate it is going to take me all day just to get the model fixed before i start playing with materials and lighting - can't get decent displacement without a good topology!

cheers, simon w.

[jsls]

I honestly don't think Cinema can do a better job than some of the superior ones on that thread. I'd love to see them. Maybe you can show me how much better Cinema can do it?

Neil V

Unfortunatly I am under a very tight deadline and have not the time, but like I said a good set up with white and black cards, decent lighting and a nice enviroment map should do the trick just fine.

Here is a image that I did 4 years ago, using the same technique....quite an old render!

[Martin Kay]

Cinema might not have dispersion built in but there is Spectral Magic 1.0 by Remotion that is very nice, not to mention the thin film shader, and a dispersion shader that makes nice chromatic abberations. I didnt see any thing spectacular in that thread, and Cinema can do a better job, you just need to know how to set up and light a propper "studio" enviroment just as you would when photographing glass objects, not an easy thing to do in 3D and real life!

http://www.remotion.de.vu/

I agree with you.

Martin Kay

www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[Martin Kay]

Cinema might not have dispersion built in but there is Spectral Magic 1.0 by Remotion that is very nice, not to mention the thin film shader, and a dispersion shader that makes nice chromatic abberations. I didnt see any thing spectacular in that thread, and Cinema can do a better job, you just need to know how to set up and light a propper "studio" enviroment just as you would when photographing glass objects, not an easy thing to do in 3D and real life!

http://www.remotion.de.vu/

Yes, I agree with that!

Martin K

[MJV]

I might start a war here but in my opinion C4D's Advanced render just isn't up to the standard of some of the work posted on this challenge. Take a look specifically at Mike RB's work - I have never seen Cinema render something that good.

And yes, I love Cinema and have used it extensively for a few years.

Neil V

You have got to be kidding? There isn't a single image there I thought was very worthwhile. The whole competition seems in part to be marred by the fact that the glasses are poorly modeled, and mostly all too unrealistically thin.

[AdamT]

Dispersion and absorption are two different things--both important for photoreal glass.

[Neil V]

No really, I'm not kidding.

I've seen some very nice renders of glass from Cinema but not up to the standard of 'some' of the stuff on that post. I don't think they're all good - in fact, some of them are downright ordinary.

If Cinema's AR was so good then we wouldn't all be screaming for V-Ray, Maxwell et al.

I'm quite open to be proved wrong though. There are some extremely capable artists using Cinema. I'm just waiting to be shown a render that can compete with some of the better ones shown on the other post.

Neil V

You have got to be kidding? There isn't a single image there I thought was very worthwhile. The whole competition seems in part to be marred by the fact that the glasses are poorly modeled, and mostly all too unrealistically thin.

[ThirdEye]

This one is the best of that thread imo, and it might be quite difficult to get something like this without dispersion, absorption and especially a refraction channel.

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/bot8cc.jpg

[MJV]

No really, I'm not kidding.

I've seen some very nice renders of glass from Cinema but not up to the standard of 'some' of the stuff on that post. I don't think they're all good - in fact, some of them are downright ordinary.

If Cinema's AR was so good then we wouldn't all be screaming for V-Ray, Maxwell et al.

I'm quite open to be proved wrong though. There are some extremely capable artists using Cinema. I'm just waiting to be shown a render that can compete with some of the better ones shown on the other post.

Neil V

Ok, if you say so.

[Martin Kay]

That image third eye just put up is very good, but I'm sure you could get something approaching that in c4d if you tried. I'm sure I could if I had the time and made an effort...
I've some basic glass shaders on my site if anyone wants them as a starting point.
There's so much you can do with what c4d offers if you experiment...

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[Neil V]

To me, that isn't the best example, but of course this is personal perception.

Maybe it's just me, as I've always struggled with realistic glass. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see someone whack a C4D render up there that blows everything else away. But I stand by my own personal opinion (which is just all it is) that I am yet to see C4D produce glass as good as some of the images posted there.

Maybe I'm just a struggling amateur.... ;o)

Neil V

That image third eye just put up is very good, but I'm sure you could get something approaching that in c4d if you tried. I'm sure I could if I had the time and made an effort...
I've some basic glass shaders on my site if anyone wants them as a starting point.
There's so much you can do with what c4d offers if you experiment...

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[Martin Kay]

There's more to glass than just glass. I think the overall effect/impression depends on many factors, like accurate modelling, a good shader incorporating all the many facets/quality glass has, plus the environment you put it in, to say nothing of the lighting. I'm personally against this fashion of 'push button' lighting people are so fascinated with currently in 3D. I think it accounts for the large amount of dismal renderings we see.

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[Neil V]

I agree with that.

Neil V

[chris-mac]

There's more to glass than just glass. I think the overall effect/impression depends on many factors, like accurate modelling, a good shader incorporating all the many facets/quality glass has, plus the environment you put it in, to say nothing of the lighting. I'm personally against this fashion of 'push button' lighting people are so fascinated with currently in 3D. I think it accounts for the large amount of dismal renderings we see.

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

Thank you.... couldn't have put it better myself.

One thing I hate to see being asked on forums is "what's your settings?...", as if there's some secret formula that can be keyed into a piece of software that will automatically produce great results...

[chris-mac]

On another note, i remember seing a render of a bottle of smirnoff ice by iMashination (rendered on Cinema4D)... it was amongst the most convincing pieces of 3d I've ever seen.

I had a look on the 3dfluff site but couldn't find it.

[Martin Kay]

Thank you.... couldn't have put it better myself.

One thing I hate to see being asked on forums is "what's your settings?...", as if there's some secret formula that can be keyed into a piece of software that will automatically produce great results...

Yes, you need to understand the fundamentals of lighting and not just paste a few settings in to the GI options. Obviously lighting is critical with glass, and I don't think some overall global lighting 'solution' will take account of that. More control and deliberation is required. Glass often photographs quite poorly in random situations, like if it just happens to be in the background of some scene. I don't think the pursuit of 'accurate' glass is necessarily going to give the best result in 3D, like sometimes a 'technically inaccurate' render may serve the illustrative purpose better.

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[jondoe0ne]

all talk and no renderings. cut the crap and show what are you guys up to. anybody can do a philosophical thesis on how a glass material should look like, but few can MAKE it...

[Neil V]

That's a nice piece, KawaTaki.
But I do think that illustrates my point quite beautifully.

I enjoy these forum debates far more than the 'How do I create a polygon' topics.

Neil V

I did this one in 2004, however the coca cola didnt come out as I wanted :/

http://www.kawataki.com/filer/gallery-filer/glass_study.jpg

[georgedrakakis]

i didn't go though all the posts (cause i got sloow connection)
but this is a excellent tutorial for creating glass in c4d.
hope it helps.
http://planetpixelemporium.com/tutorialpages/glass.html

cheers,
george

[soccerrprp]

Here's something that I played around with one day just to see what I could do. I'm positive that it doesn't stack up to the types of renders that are expected, but here I thought to myself just how proud I was with this glass render....:D

I know that much more can be done, but I'm still learning. Heck, I'm still pretty darn proud of this wine glass.

[FantaBurky]

Good for you m8 :thumbsup: One suggestion that would make you even prouder of it. Is to make the glass thicker´:bounce:

[Martin Kay]

all talk and no renderings. cut the crap and show what are you guys up to. anybody can do a philosophical thesis on how a glass material should look like, but few can MAKE it...

...that's painfully evident..

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[soccerrprp]

Thanks Kawa Taki,

I'm going to look for the c4d file and do as you suggested and perhaps add additional "objects" to better show-off the details, etc.

Anyway, I think that C4D is capable of creating superb glass. It may take us a little longer or it may be a little more difficult, but we don't try, we won't know for sure.

Come on all you seasoned C4D users!:scream:

[FantaBurky]

Okay, my first try:

http://www.kawataki.com/filer/glass_test01.jpg

I dunno, I like artsy versions more then realism :shrug: No advanced render or anythin like that, that would increase render time by days hehe. Just two spots, and some photoshop retouching which can be used on animations aswell. Setting the scene took a few minutes, like 5. Then rendering took 1 hour and 2 minutes (however I was doing alot of stuff meanwhile, so I would say the rendertime would be like 40minutes if let alone. And photshop retuching took me like 5minutes aswell.

[jondoe0ne]

...that's painfully evident..

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

i thought that you might feel hinted at, but all the bla blas, are of no help. do more, talk less, expresses exactly what i wanted to say. i mean if one holds the secret to achieve nice glass, should show the rest what he is capable of, not brag about it...

[jondoe0ne]

Okay, my first try:

http://www.kawataki.com/filer/glass_test01.jpg

I dunno, I like artsy versions more then realism :shrug: Now advanced renderer or anythin like that, that would increase render time by days hehe. Just two spots, and some photoshop retouching which can be used on animations aswell. Setting the scene took a few minutes, like 5. Then rendering took 1 hour and 2 minutes (however I was doing alot of stuff meanwhile, so I would say the rendertime would be like 40minutes if let alone. And photshop retuching took me like 5minutes aswell.

did you also post it to the glass challenge?

[FantaBurky]

nope, I dont think its realistic, and Im guessin thats what they want. But Im an anti-realism dude :D I refuse tryin to make everything so photoreal in 3D when you got digital cameras for it :rolleyes::scream: I prefer to create pics which are pleasing to the eye :love:

[FantaBurky]

Did a few more changes, and Im happy with it now :P. Would probably do aloooot more work if I competing in the challenge, but I just did this for meself as practise. I especially like the shading of the wine cork, as I didnt use any special types of attributes like SSS. Only special thing is on the glass material which is how anyone would go about doing it, adding refraction and fresnel. The bottle furthest to the right at the bottom must be the one that looked best with the shader applied, IMO.

http://www.kawataki.com/filer/glass_test02.jpg

[handige_harrie]

Maybe someone could share a C4D (optimised) scene - to save others the time of having to fix the meshes?

[AdamT]

I don't know what the objection is to the meshes. You just have to drop the bottle objects in a HN and they look fine.

[Simon Wicker]

I don't know what the objection is to the meshes. You just have to drop the bottle objects in a HN and they look fine.

so the fact that the window glass is a single poly doesn't bother you? nothing is correctly uv mapped? the nurbs to poly conversion was messed up? some of the bottles are not connected correctly?

the meshes are very poor quality, sorry, that is just a fact. dropping the bottles into a hypernurbs does not fix the problems. if i tried to pass these off then they would be sent straight back to be sorted out.

if you want decent surfacing and lighting then you have to start out with decent geometry.

cheers, simon w.

[AdamT]

so the fact that the window glass is a single poly doesn't bother you? nothing is correctly uv mapped? the nurbs to poly conversion was messed up? some of the bottles are not connected correctly?

the meshes are very poor quality, sorry, that is just a fact. dropping the bottles into a hypernurbs does not fix the problems. if i tried to pass these off then they would be sent straight back to be sorted out.

if you want decent surfacing and lighting then you have to start out with decent geometry.

cheers, simon w.
Depends on what you're trying to do with it I guess. Single-poly window glass is not an issue unless you want diffraction, which isn't really significant since the glass is flat anyway. You don't need UV mapping on the bottles if you're just using glass shaders (no labels, etc.). Flat or cubic mapping the rest would just take a sec. Didn't realize some of the bottles weren't connected, but in my quick test I didn't noticing anything obviously amiss.

I see your point if you want to make an award-winning render; I was looking at it more as a test scene for glass shaders.

[laiels]

Hope the author doesn't mind me posting this one. This was done by "Silverwing" in C4d
and posted in the challenge.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5323/bottles26gr8lk.jpg

According to silverwing


This is the Result after 4h lighting and
shadinn in Cinema 4D
I used HDRI for reflections a falloff shader
for the dusty look of the Bottles and
of course some selfmade glass-shaders
for the look of the different bottles.

Rendertime (without caustics) 1h

edit... i dont know if it´s ok but i added
a shutter outside of the window..

I think one stands up pretty good to the competition in that challenge.:thumbsup:

[soccerrprp]

Holy crap! VERY NICE! I never doubted C4D's potential!:bounce:

EDIT: Or the many talented artists that use it!:)

[shakes]

that's just beautiful work!! I shudder to think of the render time!

[Neil V]

Maybe now MJV would like to grab a dictionary and force me to eat those words! ;o)

Beautiful render. Jeez, I must stop being so negative about C4D's abilities. Maybe is just my skills after all..... damn. ;o)

Neil V

[Rich-Art]

Who that is a nice render.


Peace,
Rich-Art. :thumbsup:

[soccerrprp]

Maybe now MJV would like to grab a dictionary and force me to eat those words! ;o)

Beautiful render. Jeez, I must stop being so negative about C4D's abilities. Maybe is just my skills after all..... damn. ;o)

Neil V

Neil,

No acts of violence needed here. As long as you've seen the "LIGHT" [pun intended:) ], all is good.

[Neil V]

I was always prepared to have my negativity disproved. And I'm delighted to see such a beautiful render coming from Cinema.

Neil V

[Byla]

can someome please elaborate on that falloff shader and how to use it? Cinema manual is not extremely helpfull here..

Otherwise I love what people can do with an outdated renderer like AR. Joke, of course.

[Martin Kay]

Some glass I've been messing with. Not quite worked out how to implement falloff with glass yet...

http://www.martinkay-3d.com/tests_1.html


Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[Martin Kay]

Here's another version of the glass, which includes falloff.

http://www.martinkay-3d.com/tests_1.html

Martin K

www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[lllab]

yes Silverwing made the best image so far IMO.

it shows how good c4d can be without GI. it is just 4 lights and a hdri for reflection.
c4d had sooo much potential with up to date GI for those scenes where you need it.

for object like rendering like this it is still top class!
(i really still hope for v10)

at the end alos it shows a lot depends on the artist:-)

congratulations silverwing
cheers
stefan

[Martin Kay]

Had a go at the dust/falloff effect on glass. If anyone wants a copy of the file to take it any further, they're welcome.
http://www.martinkay-3d.com/tests_1.html

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[ombr]

Two small tests :

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2460/glass17gf.jpg


http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5715/glass24la.jpg

[Martin Kay]

My final test with glass. Seperate layer for 'fall off' dust layer.
Same link as previous.

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[ThirdEye]

My final test with glass. Seperate layer for 'fall off' dust layer.
Same link as previous.

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

very nice actually

[Jorge Arango]

Two small tests :

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2460/glass17gf.jpg


http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5715/glass24la.jpg

Very convincing glass. Any details?


Jorge Arango

[tonare]

Two small tests :

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2460/glass17gf.jpg


http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5715/glass24la.jpg

Looks good, but the glass to me seems kind of lightbulbish. Like paper thin.
Good job and your on the right track.:)

[AdamT]

Part of the problem, as Simon rightly pointed out, is that the walls of the bottles are unrealistically thin. Otherwise I'd say that the specs could be tightened up a bit.

[ombr]

The shader is inspired of this tutorial : http://planetpixelemporium.com/tutorialpages/glass.html. It explains how to setup fresnel with transparency and reflection channels.
I use four lights for the lighting (three omni and one spot) and a HDRI sphere with low brightness for reflections.
The bottom of bottles is less convincing to my opinion, it look likes plastic. I agree the bottles are too thin.
Render time with no GI... too long. My computer still works with coal.
And sorry, i have diffculties to write english.

One other test, with same lighting but different shaders :

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2017/glass40iy.jpg

[georgedrakakis]

it's an amazing render, ombr. i'm glad that the tut helped you out.
My computer still works with coal
it's also amazing how many similarities are between French & Greek.
we use the same expression in Greece and (unfortunately) i got the same problem. -> you can get very dusty working with coal!

[nutriman]

Hi fellows,

silverwings rendering is really beautiful, glad somebody came up with a nice
cinema render :thumbsup:

I put quite some effort into this one, hope it shows :shrug:
Took it outside and thought I'd like to read some crit from you guys before posting it into the lighting challenge thread.
No GI but HDRI reflections.
No postwork :D
Sorry for the poor AA... it took foreverrr!

Your comments are appreciated!

http://www.realiez.de/3DPIX/LightingChallenge.jpg

[Srek]

Would you mind terribly to post this in the lighting challenge thread too? It looks realy good :thumbsup:

Cheers
Björn

[ThirdEye]

it shows how good c4d can be without GI. it is just 4 lights and a hdri for reflection.s


GI for glass is 100% useless, it just slows things down. It's a transparent material so all it needs is good refraction and reflection capabilities in the material editor.

[AdamT]

Great job Nutriman! Excellent texture work.

[MJV]

Part of the problem, as Simon rightly pointed out, is that the walls of the bottles are unrealistically thin. Otherwise I'd say that the specs could be tightened up a bit.

I could tell the bottles were poorly modeled from the render samples in the challenge. Only after I downloaded the file did I find that some bottles have no thickness at all, so they come out as solid objects, as well there are misplaced points here and there just completely sloppy.

[Neil V]

That is one fantastic render Nutriman.

Neil V

[Simon Wicker]

Good job Nutriman - I'm going for the outdoors look too but haven't finished texturing my walls yet. Hopefully I'll get something ready next week.

Cheers, Simon W.

[Aurety]

Wow ! Great job Nutriman ! You make me feel sick to stay in front my computer without to try something ! Go, Go, Go !!!

[soccerrprp]

EDIT: Great render, Nutriman! Man, I wish i could get better outdoor lighting renders!

My attempt... not in the same league as previous posts, but I'm happy with it.

http://www.parishepiscopal.org/studio282/IMAGES/glass_challenge_attempt1.jpg

EDIT: After further examination, i think that there's too much residual reflection/brightness going on towards the bottom. Especially at base of orange colored glass bottle. Oh, well.

[Jorge Arango]

Nutriman: Great job. I hope you have the time to render with better AA.

soccerrprp: maybe your image is not the most realistic but it's looking cool!

Jorge Arango

[helluvapixel]

soccerrprp: the biggest issue I see is that there is no reference for the viewer to gauge what is causing the light. Perhaps if you offset the lighting with something beyond the glass to help give reference it will help.

[soccerrprp]

Thanks Jorge. Still working out the nuances of proper lighting to create realism.
Jason: I'm still a work in progress with this kind of stuff. Will be more attentive concerning light references.

For now, my 2nd attempt:

http://www.parishepiscopal.org/studio282/IMAGES/glass_challenge_attempt2.jpg

[Aurety]

Hey !! Soccerrprp, it's a big improvment ! I love the "pastel" way tou turn the glass looking, you know, all the glasses with "fuel spectral" skin.

Here's my first attempt. I'm not happy with my reflective map and the " too dark" edges with the fresnel for some bottles. I will try something else but any crits or comments before are welcome.

for now 5h25 to render. ( Advanced Render - C4D 9.6 - Mac Quad - No GI, No caustiques, 2 area-lights, one infinite... and dof in post-prod ).

http://www.lev-communication.fr/images/stories/porfolio/3d/bottles1_cgtalk.jpg

[Srek]

I'm seeing more and more realy nice work here :)
Please guys, make the effort to post in the lighting challenge thread too
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=356958

Cheers
Björn

[Martin Kay]

Nice scene Nutriman, but I think your image succeeds not just because of the glass, but because of the overall more creative and convincing ambience and feel. Ombre's image with the coloured glass looks better than the earlier plain glass versions for the same reason.

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

[nutriman]

Thank you everyone for the kind words, I'll do some tweaks and post it over there :)
Aurety, i like that fresh feeling of your composition!!
I second what srek says, let's go and wave the c4d flag :bounce:

[rhinotic]

Here's my try with FR2
10 minutes with GI and a skylight and some PS'ing.
Not up to par with the above images(great works guys!) but hey took me only 30 min setting up and rendering and retouching:D

[lllab]

very nice aurety!

cheers
stefan

[ombr]

Thanks gdrakakis ;o)
I don't have any more time but i have posted my last attempt in the challenge thread.
Different Lightning for less reflection and other minor changes.

Nice work soccerrprp and Aurety. :)

[Aurety]

Thanks for your kind words my friends ! This is my final picture, the week end is over and tomorrow too much work.... Snif...

I would something between dry and wet, sandy and greeny atmosphère, something "baroque"... I'm happy and proud with this render even there's too much to do to join the great entries I've seen here or CGTalk challenge thread.

Thanks again for the gentle comment so now I wait about yours readers ! :thumbsup:

http://www.lev-communication.fr/images/stories/porfolio/3d/bottlescgtalk2.jpg

[Jorge Arango]

Very good Aurety. The green ambient light is very realistic. And it has mood.


Jorge Arango

Thanks for your kind words my friends ! This is my final picture, the week end is over and tomorrow too much work.... Snif...

I would something between dry and wet, sandy and greeny atmosphère, something "baroque"... I'm happy and proud with this render even there's too much to do to join the great entries I've seen here or CGTalk challenge thread.

Thanks again for the gentle comment so now I wait about yours readers ! :thumbsup:

http://www.lev-communication.fr/images/stories/porfolio/3d/bottlescgtalk2.jpg

[Aurety]

merci Jorge !

[lllab]

well aurety thats better than most others on the challange, do post it there!

very nice image:-)
cheers
stefan

[Rich-Art]

Great Aurety, very nice render.
I still have to learn a lot is see...

Peace,
Rich-Art. :thumbsup:

[nutriman]

Aurety, that's just beautiful!
How long did it take to render?
I guess my pic will be finished this evening (after 10hrs :eek: ),
AA is killing me...

[Aurety]

2h30 for rendering instead the 5h30 for the first attempt. I changed many thing with my old lightsetup. Thanks for all the sweet comments here !

[brammelo]

Pas mal, mon pote, pas mal... ça doit être déserte sur l'hauteur ou tu te trouves :thumbsup:

Tu me donne envie de l'essayer moi-même. Hélas, le temps me manque :sad:

(just to say I aprreciate Arety's and everyone else's renders. Too bad I don't have time to participate - I would have loved to see if I could get somewhere near their ankles with my results :D)

Ciao,
BaRa

[Aurety]

Merci Bart, I will love to see one of yours mirrific rendering ! I hope to see you this year at the villa if it's possible this time.

[tcastudios]

I did make a try yesterday, and looking at it today it turned out ok, I think.
One "Straight" single material for the bottles, two parallel lights and a HDR background to get it somewhat over overexposed. Turned out more painteraly than real. Desaturated in PS.

Cheers
Lennart
http://homepage.mac.com/tcastudios/tempfiles/bottlecoll02.jpg

[brammelo]

I did make a try yesterday, and looking at it today it turned out ok, I think.
One "Straight" single material for the bottles, two parallel lights and a HDR background to get it somewhat over overexposed. Turned out more painteraly than real. Desaturated in PS.


Looking good, but could it be your refraction values are a bit low?

[maikukai]

Here's my first test. I'm happy with it so far, now I need to texture the widow frame, etc...

The glass is from this tut, (with a little tweaking)
http://planetpixelemporium.com/tutorialpages/glass.html

For the reflections, I'm using the kitchen.hdr from here...
http://www.debevec.org/Probes/

1 Area light w/ hard shadows (85%)
No GI, No AO, AA Best, 640x480 - 15 min on a Quad G5

I'll post this on the glass challenge as soon as I'm done.

[Martin Kay]

Very nice final render Aurety!


Martin K

[nutriman]

Here's my final for an evening outdoor scene.
No GI but HDRI reflection, AR 2.5 and some tweaking in PS.
Hope you like it as much as I enjoyed this! :thumbsup:

http://www.realiez.de/3DPIX/LightingChallenge4.jpg

[Martin Kay]

Nice job nutriman!

Martin K

[Aurety]

Thanks Martinkay ! Nutriman, as I said on the challenge forum, It's gorgeous and I love the mood. Great picture ! Thanks for this inspiration stuff for me. :thumbsup:

[vid2k2]

[QUOTE=nutriman]Here's my final for an evening outdoor scene.
No GI but HDRI reflection, AR 2.5 and some tweaking in PS.
Hope you like it as much as I enjoyed this! :thumbsup:

Congrats, beautiful work. Your attention to window and bottle detail
is noteworthy. I can't fault that portion at all.Looking at the render as a judge "may"
look at it, I have some minor points that may mean a lot ..........

What I don't understand is..... and I don't know the deadline:

- why did you leave the board straight and with that rounded edge?
Your clever and detailed "aging" around window frames etc is great.
The shelf board may have had a bit more age as with everything else ... no?

- the barn wood siding is wonderful, except for the lower right hand corner
where it tiles.

- last, I'd have liked to have seen some cracks in the bottle glass

It would be a very hard choice to choose between you and Aurety...
both are fabulous! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:for each of you:)

[Aurety]

Oups Lennart, I've just seen yours ! Good job, especially for the paint rendering and saturate colors.

[MJV]

Wow a great showing by Cinema so far. I was inspired by some of the colored bottle renders so here's my go at it.

http://www.mvpny.com/BottleCollection38m6AEsB.jpg

[Aurety]

Impressive looking MJV ! I love the background, vey urban an quiet place I love to live. :thumbsup:

[FranOnTheEdge]

That image third eye just put up is very good, but I'm sure you could get something approaching that in c4d if you tried. I'm sure I could if I had the time and made an effort...
I've some basic glass shaders on my site if anyone wants them as a starting point.
There's so much you can do with what c4d offers if you experiment...

Martin K
www.martinkay-3d.com (http://www.martinkay-3d.com)

Well I'm just playing with the bottles - way too new to Cinema to be ready to post anything, but if the offer is still open I'd really like to have a play with the glass I saw on your site - I'd like to try them all but I particularly liked the one called "glass - ramp".

[ThirdEye]

Impressive looking MJV ! I love the background, vey urban an quiet place I love to live. :thumbsup:

am i the only one who can't see Michael's image?

[MJV]

Impressive looking MJV ! I love the background, vey urban an quiet place I love to live. :thumbsup:

Thanks Aurety. The background is from the Dosch HDRI Extreme Hires collection (http://www.doschdesign.com/products/hdri/Extreme_Hires_DVD.html). It's one of my favorites as you can see I used it here too:

http://www.mvpny.com/FordA30Comp8.jpg

[RickardAx]

I was just trying to post an image but i get the reply that i can´t post bigger files than 97kb?
Is there a way to post bigger files?
Cheers Rickard

[MJV]

am i the only one who can't see Michael's image?

Odd. Maybe refresh your browser? If that doesn't work, here is a direct link (http://www.mvpny.com/BottleCollection38m6AEsB.jpg). (http://www.mvpny.com/BottleCollection38m6AEsB.jpg)

[Martin Kay]

Nice job MV, one of the best. Glass looks spotless though...


Martin K

[Martin Kay]

I was just trying to post an image but i get the reply that i can´t post bigger files than 97kb?
Is there a way to post bigger files?
Cheers Rickard

I could never figure that one out either...

Martin K

[Martin Kay]

Well I'm just playing with the bottles - way too new to Cinema to be ready to post anything, but if the offer is still open I'd really like to have a play with the glass I saw on your site - I'd like to try them all but I particularly liked the one called "glass - ramp".

Send me your Email address.

Martin K

[RickardAx]

Hi
This is my render to the Challenge.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/Rickardax/Glasenklar.jpg

I thought i post it here first to get some C&C.
Cheers
Rickard

[Aurety]

Nice lighting and render RickardAx !!... but not fan about your background map who disrupt the lines and repeat the trees inside the glass with the refraction. But it's just my feeling, if you're happy with it, so there's no problem.:scream:

[RickardAx]

Hi Aurety
Thanks for the comment. Well im never that happy that i dont want it too kook better:-)
Do you meen that the map is to cluttered to make the glas look good? I have one hdri map outside the window and one map on the inside to simulate the room.
Thanks
Rickard

[Aurety]

I will change the exterior map or rotate it a bit, just to place the trees present in the map outside the bottles refraction because your sky is empty and It's ( for me ) difficult to understand why they're so many lines in the bottles, especially the first green bottle in front... Sorry I'm not clear, this is due to my limitation with english...

[RickardAx]

Hi
i agree with you, it's to "turbulent". I will try to lower the map so that i get more of the sky and less trees. But i have the scen at home so i cant render it until i get home.
Thanks again
Rickard

[RickardAx]

Hi
Here is an update of the render. I changed the map and i think it's better.
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/Rickardax/Glas3.jpg
Cheers
Rickard

[ThirdEye]

Hi
Here is an update of the render. I changed the map and i think it's better.
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/Rickardax/Glas3.jpg
Cheers
Rickard

Why so much noise?

[RickardAx]

Hi
I added the noice in PS to get a more filmlook but i guess it didn't turn out the way i wanted it to. Maybe it looks more like a maxwell render:)
Rickard

[ThirdEye]

Maybe it looks more like a maxwell render:)

rotfl, that's for sure

[imashination]

And dont use the monochrome option either.

[nycL45]

...Maybe it looks more like a maxwell render:)
Rickard

None of the attempts over at MWR are as good as yours. To you, well done.

[Triker]

My attempt at an old dirty look. Thanks to SilverWing for the Falloff sample file, though I modified it quite a bit.

[RickardAx]

Thanks for the comments.
Mash your right the monochrome option was checked, i will change that or skip the blur in the next render.
nyc45 thank´s for the kind words.
Triker thats really looking good, like an old postcard.
Cheers

[Martin Kay]

My attempt at an old dirty look. Thanks to SilverWing for the Falloff sample file, though I modified it quite a bit.

That looks very nice!

Martin K

[nutriman]

That looks very nice!

Martin K

...indeed, might even look well in sepia, have you treid it ;)

[Triker]

...indeed, might even look well in sepia, have you treid it ;)

Thanks for the comments. I did try it in sepia, but it looked a little too contrived, if you know what I mean.

[ChrisCousins]

Hi Richard - congrats on the fine image. When adding noise to a render to mimic the look of an old photo, try using 'Overlay' at low opacities rather than the 'Normal' apply mode; this more closely resembles the way film grain would affect an image.
Cheers - Chris

Thanks for the comments.
Mash your right the monochrome option was checked, i will change that or skip the blur in the next render.
nyc45 thank´s for the kind words.
Triker thats really looking good, like an old postcard.
Cheers

[Mojomatrix]

1 omni light, no GI. Total time 55min

[MJV]

Here is an update. Probably my last. Added some frost and grape bunch embossing to the grape glass, and some dust to the glasses. Increased the contrast some and added a little glow in post.

http://www.mvpny.com/BottleCollection38m6B3AE1.jpg

[RickardAx]

Hi MJV
Nice render. The part with the green glass and the grape bottle in the right corner is beautiful. But if looks kind of hard with eternal depth of field. Its a good map but it takes the focus away from the bottles.
Cheers
Rickard

[dann_stubbs]

Hi MJV
Nice render. The part with the green glass and the grape bottle in the right corner is beautiful. But if looks kind of hard with eternal depth of field. Its a good map but it takes the focus away from the bottles.
Cheers
Rickard


it does look very nice. the bee and ring though seem unnecessary - it is a glass render challenge and yours look fine - you don't need to toss in a herring to try to make it better.

i've got to check back in on the challenge - is there any nice responses to the C4D entries there?

dann

[MJV]

@Martin Kay: Thanks for the feedback. I tried to make the glass a little less spotless in my next render, but could have carried the idea much further that's true.

@RichardAx: Thanks. I knew from the start that using a background was the most difficult option, which somehow made it the most appealing. In the past I've done glass renders like the one below on black backgrounds which is easier but this time I wanted to challenge something more.

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/Glass.jpg

Using a sunny day background, I knew that if I took a photo of glasses against a window like this, they'd be much more silhouetted. I tried to suggest that some direct sunlight from the window we see reflected on the left is hitting the base of the glasses to counter the rear light. Still it's a bit unnatural still. Time and skill limitations conspired against me. ;)

@Dann: The bee was added for composition. I wanted to make an interesting image besides merely fulfilling the requirements of the challenge, though I agree that its imperfectness is ultimately probably more of a distraction than a help. I did a lot of things in this image to make things harder on myself than they needed to be because there were things I personally wanted to challenge. I liked how the wings represented another kind of glass like transparency, and how they caught the light. Similarly, the ring was added to have some diamond glass in there and show the ring caustics.

[FranOnTheEdge]

Here is an update. Probably my last. Added some frost and grape bunch embossing to the grape glass, and some dust to the glasses. Increased the contrast some and added a little glow in post.



Very nice glass, I particularly like the purple one, I keep trying to make glass like that - without much success.

[RIP2004]

One of my first glasses ever made. I did it with the demo of cinema 8.x ... so i have no scene.
Ugly background ;)

http://rz-home.de/~jkreis/bild01.jpg

[nycL45]

Time and skill limitations conspired against me. ;)

IMHO, it is damned good, MJV. And that goes for your comments about the thought process, too.

[ThirdEye]

One of my first glasses ever made. I did it with the demo of cinema 8.x ... so i have no scene.
Ugly background ;)

http://rz-home.de/~jkreis/bild01.jpg (http://rz-home.de/%7Ejkreis/bild01.jpg)

veeeery convincing :)

[FranOnTheEdge]

Well I'm not sure about posting this, but here's how far I've got with this challenge. I'm not totally happy with all the glass as I can still see quite a few problems but I'm not sure how to cure them now.

I'm afraid I even seem to have ruined Martin's lovely "Glass Ramp" material. I don't like those nasty jagged bits on the closest glass - but nothing I do seems to help it... So I seem to be stuck now.

[dann_stubbs]

Well I'm not sure about posting this, but here's how far I've got with this challenge. I'm not totally happy with all the glass as I can still see quite a few problems but I'm not sure how to cure them now.

I'm afraid I even seem to have ruined Martin's lovely "Glass Ramp" material. I don't like those nasty jagged bits on the closest glass - but nothing I do seems to help it... So I seem to be stuck now.


change your AA to best - it seems it is on geometry. the geometry only smooths edges and will not smooth through transparency. (it will make the render time go up too just FYI so might only want to use on final renders)

dann

[Martin Kay]

Well I'm not sure about posting this, but here's how far I've got with this challenge. I'm not totally happy with all the glass as I can still see quite a few problems but I'm not sure how to cure them now.

I'm afraid I even seem to have ruined Martin's lovely "Glass Ramp" material. I don't like those nasty jagged bits on the closest glass - but nothing I do seems to help it... So I seem to be stuck now.

All shaders will need adapting to the final useage- they won't always work successfully in every case. Certain elements, like bump and dirt layers may need scaling to suit the object. With objects like glass, lighting can make or break how it looks. You may not want to change the lighting, so you'd have to adapt the shader.

Martin K

[Martin Kay]

Well I'm not sure about posting this, but here's how far I've got with this challenge. I'm not totally happy with all the glass as I can still see quite a few problems but I'm not sure how to cure them now.

I'm afraid I even seem to have ruined Martin's lovely "Glass Ramp" material. I don't like those nasty jagged bits on the closest glass - but nothing I do seems to help it... So I seem to be stuck now.

With ref to rendering glass, one thing you do need is DENSE mesh- it smoothes out the refraction patterns and makes them more realistic and less zig zaggy. Of course it depends on how close to the camera the glass is. I might use at least 120 divisions in a lathed object.

Martin K

[mogh]

I think im wormed up now to test these bottle scene.
I think a second hard reflex would be great, but i cant manage to get 2 reflexes on the glas, i have to try some of the special shaders, perhaps.
Just wanted to make the glases everybody here in Europe knows.

http://www.defcon-x.de/mogh_forum_files/ikea_glases.jpg

[FranOnTheEdge]

Okay, I've changed the glass flask thingie - it now has 31232 polygons.

I also changed the AA to Best - and it does look much better, I only changed the flask model not anything else in the image but other things look better too, including the chrome of the window frame.

It took 2 to 3 hours to render, I didn't check it before closing the picture viewer, but at about halfway through it had taken 1hr 28 mins.

The other version only took 45 mins to render. Does that sound about normal?

[FranOnTheEdge]

I think im wormed up now to test these bottle scene.
I think a second hard reflex would be great, but i cant manage to get 2 reflexes on the glas, i have to try some of the special shaders, perhaps.
Just wanted to make the glases everybody here in Europe knows.



Well since everybody else seems to have left the building and I'm the only one still looking at this thread, I'd say that (looking at the image you posted) apart from the model that's lying down the others look more like plastic to me. Not totally sure why that is, but it may have something to do with the faint dusty look the material has, so if there's noise causing that I'd remove it or at least greatly reduce it.

Perhaps it's more something to do with the refractive index? Someone posted a list of the different refractive indexes and the things they relate to... maybe it was in this thread or if not it might have been in the original challenge thread. (I can't tell while I'm typing into this reply box)

Hopefully one day someone who knows more about this stuff will come back and answer both your and my questions...

I found the refractive index list:
Alcohol - 1.329
Crystal - 2.00
Emerald - 1.576
Glass - 1.51714
Glass, Albite - 1.4890
Glass, Crown -1.520
Glass, Crown, Zinc - 1.517
Glass, Flint, Dense - 1.66
Glass, Flint, Heaviest - 1.89
Glass, Flint, Heavy - 1.65548
Glass, Flint, Lanthanum - 1.80
Glass, Flint, Light - 1.58038
Glass, Flint, Medium - 1.62725
Ice - 1.309
Mercury - 1.62
Plastic - 1.460
Ruby - 1.760
Water (gas) - 1.000261
Water 100'C - 1.31819
Water 20'C - 1.33335
Water 35'C (Room temp) - 1.33157
It was in the original thread and came from a tutorial in the texturing forum by Leigh, here: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74444

I'm going to have a look at that tut myself.

[Martin Kay]

I'd say that (looking at the image you posted) apart from the model that's lying down the others look more like plastic to me. Not totally sure why that is, but it may have something to do with the faint dusty look the material has, so if there's noise causing that I'd remove it or at least greatly reduce it.

Perhaps it's more something to do with the refractive index? Someone posted a list of the different refractive indexes and the things they relate to... maybe it was in this thread or if not it might have been in the original challenge thread. (I can't tell while I'm typing into this reply box)



Its nothing to do with refraction, that just determines how much/by what angle the light rays are bent by the glass or what have you. Plastic generally is much more opaque than glass, and has less defined highlights. To construct convincing glass requires in the first place accurate modelling of all the subtle ridges, lips and ridges, because these will help portray all the refractive and reflective qualities of glass. If you construct a 110% accurate common or garden plastic cup from a vending machine and give it the most accurate glass shader in this galaxy and the next galaxy, it will tend to look like a plastic cup, because of shape association. That's why a poorly modelled bottle with a mediocre glass shader will still look like a bottle- shape association. The better your modelling the more likely you are to convince.
To get reasonable looking refraction you do need a very dense mesh. Look at the glass object on the extreme right of your image and see the zig zaggy refraction pattern- this is because of low res mesh.

Martin K

[FranOnTheEdge]

[QUOTE=FranOnTheEdge]I'd say that (looking at the image you posted) apart from the model that's lying down the others look more like plastic to me. Not totally sure why that is, but it may have something to do with the faint dusty look the material has, so if there's noise causing that I'd remove it or at least greatly reduce it.

Perhaps it's more something to do with the refractive index? Someone posted a list of the different refractive indexes and the things they relate to... maybe it was in this thread or if not it might have been in the original challenge thread. (I can't tell while I'm typing into this reply box)

QUOTE]

Its nothing to do with refraction, that just determines how much/by what angle the light rays are bent by the glass or what have you. Plastic generally is much more opaque than glass, and has less defined highlights. To construct convincing glass requires in the first place accurate modelling of all the subtle ridges, lips and ridges, because these will help portray all the refractive and reflective qualities of glass. If you construct a 110% accurate common or garden plastic cup from a vending machine and give it the most accurate glass shader in this galaxy and the next galaxy, it will tend to look like a plastic cup, because of shape association. That's why a poorly modelled bottle with a mediocre glass shader will still look like a bottle- shape association. The better your modelling the more likely you are to convince.
To get reasonable looking refraction you do need a very dense mesh. Look at the glass object on the extreme right of your image and see the zig zaggy refraction pattern- this is because of low res mesh.

Martin K

Thanks for replying, I thought everybody'd given up posting on this.

So 31232 polygons is low res? What would you call high res then? I ask because this has been smoothed 3 times more than the original at 2047polys - yet bottle10 is only 1176, and that's after I smoothed it in Wings3D not how it arrived from the challenge thread with 290 polygons.

This is a serious question - I really want to know what is generally - and in this case specifically for such a glass container - what is considered low poly and what high poly.

Please?:)

[Martin Kay]

Thanks for replying, I thought everybody'd given up posting on this.

So 31232 polygons is low res? What would you call high res then? I ask because this has been smoothed 3 times more than the original at 2047polys - yet bottle10 is only 1176, and that's after I smoothed it in Wings3D not how it arrived from the challenge thread with 290 polygons.

This is a serious question - I really want to know what is generally - and in this case specifically for such a glass container - what is considered low poly and what high poly.

Please?:)

I note that you say 'smooth'...I'm not quite sure what this 'smoothing' process does.It's not the same as creating a lathed object from scratch and selecting a high number of divisions. Example, take a cube. It has twelve edges. You only need 6 polygons to describe it. Adding more subdivisions or polygons won't change its cubic nature.
I suggest you construct your own mesh in c4d and experiment with various mesh densities, when the object is still editable.

Martin K

[FranOnTheEdge]

Right... I'll look into that.

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