Far West scene

[Vimmy]

horse picture

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6720/horse15ab.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Andre]

Realy nice, only the horse looks a bit strange to me. a little to fat... and the front legs look a bit strange to. But it is realy going nice!

[EricCartman]

If you look at the horse's head it looks more like a dog. Study some horse photos and you will see the dominant features which will make your head more horse-like.

[Thyriax]

That's a good start, but i think that rigging of the legs have some problem.
Keep going!

[Bryan Y]

At first glance the horse looks pretty good, but there are some problems.

The bridle and bit make no sense. It's barely a snaffle bit, and certainly not a curb bit. Why don't you put a curb bit in his mouth? The bridle should have a strap going behind the ears. Western bridles often don't have nose bands. Look at some Western bridles and curb bits. The Internet has about 100,000 photos of them.

The stirrups don't hang from across the top of the saddle. The saddle's cantle is completely wrong. Look at some Western saddles - specifically roping saddles. If he's roping, he's going to want a heavier saddlehorn - again, look at roping saddles. You'll probably want to put a nice breast collar on the horse. The saddle has English stirrups, which isn't right. Again, look at Western saddles and their stirrups. The rider's boots are too far back. Consult images of Western riding at the canter and the gallop.

The horse's head profile is pretty good, and you did indeed model the facial crest, but it doesn't go into the eye like that - it goes underneath. Consult a horse conformation chart/diagram.

During heavy exertion, the horse's nostril will flare, hence the reasoning behind the inner fold at the front inside part of the nostril.

The joint deformations which need the most work are the knees, stifles and hocks.

The ears could use some loving care in their modeling, and a study of why they orient in any particular way could give you options for realistic behavior.

The inner corner of the mouth is not rearward enough.

All in all, it is an excellent start, but it looks like you should study some references (tack and horse) in more detail, and get the cultural items correct as well.

The overall proportions are good. I like it, but it needs work.

Contemporary reining: NRHA: National Reining Horse Association. (http://www.nrha.com/)

For images of the Old West, consult artwork by the following artists:


Charles Russell
Frederick Remington
Charles Schreyvogel
Frank Tenney Johnson
Olaf Wieghorst

[Bryan Y]

Western bridle (http://www.walkerswest.com/img/SaleHorses/WesternBridle%202.jpg): A brow band but no nose band.

Western bridle (http://www.walkerswest.com/img/SaleHorses/WesternBridle.jpg): A brow band but no nose band.

Western bridle (http://www.calclassics.net/productsservices/headstalls/Cardoverv.jpg): No brow band, but it does have a nose band.

Most of the above are too ornate, designed for show purposes. Focus on the functionality.

Curb bits:
Photo #1 (http://www.mikmar.com/images/horse-show.gif)
Photo #2 (http://www.ushist.com/saddles-tack/inc/images/carrico-curb-bit.jpg)
Photo #3 (http://www.cowboygear.com/spursimg/curb.jpg)
Photo #4 (http://www.acclaimimages.net/_gallery/_SM/0013-0508-1517-4934_SM.jpg)
Photo #5 (http://z.about.com/d/horses/1/0/I/2/sshankcurb.jpg)

Snaffle bits: (snaffle bits operate on a different principle)
Photo #1 (http://www.tackroominc.com/catalog/images/BJPLooseRingSnaffle.jpeg)
Photo #2 (http://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/jpg/A4snaffl.jpg)
Photo #3 (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Epauloliver/Bandit/mcfacemay3003.JPG)
Photo #4 (http://www.equineinternet.com/docatnight/images/dan2-5x1.jpg)

Western saddle stirrups:
Photo #1 (http://douglas-sarpy.unl.edu/4h/imgages/horse_stirrup.jpg)
Photo #2 (http://www.equusite.com/articles/basics/images/basicsWesternSaddle.jpg)
Photo #3 (http://www.rossistudios.com/sad4x4.jpg)
Photo #4 (http://www.valhallafarm.net/WesternSaddle.jpg)

Also, the saddle lacks a tree, and thus makes it implausible. A saddle is composed of two bars, both of which sit on the horse's flanks, and no part of the saddle rests on the horse's withers or spine.
Photo #1 (http://save-me-products.com/smpics/equip/tree.jpg)
Photo #2 (http://lorienstable.com/services/fitting/tree_sizes/western-tree-gullet-size.png)
Photo #3 (http://completerunning.com/Loping-LouBob/wp-content/SaddleTree.jpg)
Photo #4 (http://awarenesshorsemanship.com/trees/westd6.jpg)

[Bryan Y]

Also, even though the bit isn't even in place on the horse's left side, let's assume it is and analyze our cowboy friend's actions.

He's pulling hard on the left rein, which, if it was a snaffle bit, would be a signal to the horse to yank his head around to the left and turn to the left, and give up speed to boot.

If it was a curb bit, then the idea of pulling hard on one side is just plain bad riding. Curb bits aren't hinged in the mouth, and require mostly even pulling from both sides of the mouth. To turn the horse when using a curb bit, you "neck rein", which is to gently lay the rein across the side of the neck opposite the direction you wish to turn.

With regard to the cowboy's left leg, he appears as though he's about to dismount on the right side. Is this his intent? Otherwise, he's really off balance and out of control.

[Bryan Y]

Our cowboy is leaning out to the right, and working his rope. but he has not yet roped the animal that he is attempting to rope. If it's a calf, he might indeed dismount while the horse is still in motion, so once the calf is roped, his left leg will indeed begin to take the position it is in.

But he has not yet roped the animal (whether it's a horse, bull or calf, I don't know). He is leaning out to the right, and balance is important, but so is a good riding posture and stance. Let's look at some imagery of roping in action:

Image #1 (http://www.coloradocathouse.com/ATGRWO.eps_Roping%20a%20Wild%20One_AF.jpg)
Image #2 (http://www.shutterfreaks.com/albums2/bestofshutterfreaks/TNeal_Roping_0831.jpg)
Image #3 (http://www.benbrookstables.com/roping.JPG)
Image #4 (http://www.1plus1ranch.com/learning_roping/roping.jpg)
Image #5 (http://www.americanroundup.com/Double%20e%20roping.jpg)
Image #6 (http://www.avitalranch.co.il/Pics/Roping.jpg)
Image #7 (http://www.horsecanyon.com/SBCC/g-images/summer-drive/roping-lg.jpg)
Image #8 (http://corbettite.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/roping.jpg)
Image #9 (http://hsc.unm.edu/about/features/images/cowboys_Roping05.jpg)
Image #10 (http://www.blantonhorses.com/images/cc%20roping.jpg)

[Bryan Y]

I would also encourage you to study the compositions, subject matter, and details of the works by the Cowboy Artists of America, an exclusive organization of highly respected and established artists dedicated to portraying the West both today and yesterday.

Each artist in the organization is a ripe keyword for Google.

Cowboy Artists of America link. (http://www.cowboyartistsofamerica.com/)

Another artist worth looking at is Robert Shoofly Shufelt (http://www.studio-w.com/shoofly/). His pencil sketches are amazing. (They are not photographs).

Also visit the Altermann Galleries (http://www.altermann.com/) and the Legacy Gallery (http://www.legacygallery.com/).

And you would do well to study the works that have been auctioned off over the years at the Santa Fe Art Auction (http://auctions.altermann.com/auctions.asp).

Had enough? Or do you want me to keep it coming?

[Gremlin]

I understand you're only trying to "help" but I would say you're going a bit overboard and pretty much telling him what he should be making--it's his creative process, he's most likely looking for technical critiques like "that looks lumpy" or "those are some sharp edges" not... "you should have him taking his leg off, because in reality he'd probably be taking his leg off right about there, because he's supposed to wrangling a calf." You actually sound almost offended.

My critique however, is the legs on the horde look sort of rubbery--but overall, it looks nice!

[Bryan Y]

I understand you're only trying to "help" but I would say you're going a bit overboard and pretty much telling him what he should be making--it's his creative process, he's most likely looking for technical critiques like "that looks lumpy" or "those are some sharp edges" not... "you should have him taking his leg off, because in reality he'd probably be taking his leg off right about there, because he's supposed to wrangling a calf." You actually sound almost offended. Actually, "that looks lumpy" is also an infrigement on the creative process. My crits are technical - they are an education with regard to the subject matter. I don't seek to change the artist's medium, style of working, nor overall material.

What I provide is information with regard to the subject matter he is modeling - which is exactly what an artist needs when his subject demonstrates innaccuracies. If anything, my criticisms don't tell him what to model - they tell him how his subject matter behaves, appears and works in the real world - the foundations upon which art is built. Where an artist takes that information from there is entirely up to them - but they are more informed for having the information. Education never stifled art.

When I want to create something - tell a story, create a picture, build something 3 dimensionally, I, and most all artists, want to know how the subject works, what it is composed of, what isn't correct, and the detailed elements with which it is comprised of. All good art starts with a fundamental understanding of the subject matter.

"That looks lumpy" is precisely the opposite of what any artist needs with regard to becoming a better artist. That is merely pushing the artist's own paintbrush. I'd rather prefer to know "why" something looks lumpy - is it because of some fundamental misunderstanding with regard to the underlying bone structure, and so on.

[Gremlin]

I disagree--when you look at something for too long, you're eyes start to become use to it and you stop noticing things that normally catch people's eye who are first viewing the piece; visual critiques such as "that's lumpy" or "those edges look rather hard" are completely valid--and I'd imagin desired much more than a 6-post essay about why it's not accurate and how it should look. "why" is relative in art, because we can create anything...you seem so constricted, and determined on ultimate-realism... I'd imagin you don't just model the boy, you model the mother too just so the boy had an origin.

I don't think it's so much what you're saying, but the level to which you're going on and insisting upon it--okay, you made your point that it doesn't have authenticity to maybe a "real" cowbow, but proceeding to tell him he modeled the wrong stuff and the horses nose should be flared and the ears should modeled differently is a bit overbearing. I'm sure he's looked at reference images, so he probably chose to use the stuff he liked.

I think what a lot of artists enjoy is that we can create what we want and deviate from reality if our creative vision pushes us to--I can model a human being with a HUGE nose, and people may say hey the nose isn't supposed to be that big...but that's the freedom of art.

Also, completely dominating his thread was questionable too--granted now I've taken part in it, but I'd say next time PM him if you want to write him an essay. :shrug:

[Vimmy]

Well thank all! Yes i think they have a some probleme, on the horse character specialy on the legs and the shape of the face lool like more dog. I will modifie it. Also thank for the reference photos:thumbsup: Bryan Y. personally I think the most part of your comment are objective Bryan:)

[Bryan Y]

Vimmy, Thank you. I thought my information was objective as well.

[Bryan Y]

Also, completely dominating his thread was questionable too--granted now I've taken part in it, but I'd say next time PM him if you want to write him an essay. :shrug:Just for the record everyone - please, if you are knowledgeabe with respect to any subject matter in any thread where an artist is seeking information or help, then please DO provide essays and all the info you've got, for everyone to see, especially if you know the subject matter. Don't stifle the flow of information - it's very hard to learn this stuff on your own! Share all that you know!

[Vimmy]

you are some good comment but your glance be hard.Gremlin have reason for some point.


sorry for bad english

[Gremlin]

Just for the record everyone - please, if you are knowledgeabe with respect to any subject matter in any thread where an artist is seeking information or help, then please DO provide essays and all the info you've got, for everyone to see, especially if you know the subject matter. Don't stifle the flow of information - it's very hard to learn this stuff on your own! Share all that you know!
Bryan, I already said I understand you're just trying to help--it just seemed a bit unusual and out of place to be so lengthy in your criticism, regardless of how informative.

I come here to critique it visually, maybe offer some suggestions here and there but I have faith the artist is portraying what he wants and that he just wants to know if anything looks off--I don't care if he modeled the "wrong" sadle, I just tell him the sadle looks lumpy... I don't find it my place to do much more than that unless directly asked by the artist about authenticity or whatever.

[Bryan Y]

Bryan, I already said I understand you're just trying to help--it just seemed a bit unusual and out of place to be so lengthy in your criticism, regardless of how informative.Yes, it is unusual that people would spend a great deal of time providing information and resources. Rare and unusual, but out of place? No, it just seems so because it is a rarity.

[Bryan Y]

Vimmy,
Do you have a bind pose for your horse? If so, I'm sure myself and others would like to see it. There are several horse models underway right now in these forums, and we all like to see what's going on with the other horses.

Mine is taking forever, as are most everyone else's.

[Vimmy]

yes i have a bind pose on my model, I'm set de low polygone pose in maya and after I'm go to zbrush.

[Bryan Y]

Vimmy,
As Grermlin has pointed out, I was a bit rough in my initial posts, but mostly because I wanted to get right to the point and show the things which were wrong with your model that you likely weren't aware of but probably would've wanted to know about. I'm sorry for sounding the way I did. But I won't apologize for providing the information, as Gremlin thinks I should.

As soon as you are able, if you could show us the bind pose, that'd be great.

[Vimmy]

ok i done th gun for my cowboy :)

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4373/gun6ym.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Gremlin]

Bryan: I never said I think you should apologize, as I said I know you were trying to help I was just trying to point out it seemed a bit in excess and the "conversation" got out of control.

Vimmy: The gun really looks great, looks like you're making some nice progress! :D I wish I wasn't procrastinating on my own model--I've to model the ear and I'm dreading the amount of I'm time I'm going to have to put into it hehe

[Vimmy]

thank Gremlin!

[dagann]

Nice work so far.


I like the guns and the horse.

About the discussion with Bryan Y, i just want to say he helps me a lot with my horse and all people modelling horses. He loves horses and know them very well.
He devotes hours helping people. Yes he writes a lot because he is a horse lover, but only to help :)
I don't know a lot people who spend so much time to help other people.
So the best is to take it how it is: help and advice.
Keep what you think is relevant and leave the rest.

Anyway i hope to see update soon.
keep it up.

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