(Maxon R8 V Free Upgrade) to LW

[kiwi]

Try contacting Maxon before you kill your card with LW Chris.



Stu.

[kraal]

i started playing in lightwave at the same time i was playing with cinema ...welll here i am...and realize at the time cinema was real underground and LW was showing really good work

[videodv]

kraal

have you found the expirence worthwhile?.

Chris

[Per-Anders]

i would agree, contact maxon, they should set you straight. and it's an expensive thing to do getting another package.

have you used lightwve before? if not then i suggest at teh very least getting your hands on the discovery edition or whatever the free demo is called and giving that a try, it's not to everyones tastes (though i personally love lightwave just as much as i love cinema). also make sure that you've tried the r8 demo if you've not done so already just so that you can see exactly what the differences are.

whatever you choose good luck :)

[videodv]

OK.

I am Sitting here with my credit card in hand waiting for a reason why I should not change from Maxon (My bad experience) to LightWave.

(I will wait 20mins for a counter argument why I should stay with Maxon).

Chris.

[kiwi]

Because one email or phone call might save you a whole lot of cash.



Stu.

[AdamT]

Your choice, of course, but here are a few reasons that come to mind:

* $1,000;
* Separate modeling/animation applications (sucks, IMHO);
* Illogical, non-customizable interface;
* No procedural modeling;
* No softIK;
* Not as stable.

And there are plenty of reasons to prefer LW as well:

* Better particles;
* Better modeling tools;
* Limited n-gons;
* Better soft-body solution;
* Better volumetric effects;
* Comes with basic hair plugin.

Bottom line, IMO, is that some confusion over your order is not a good basis for a decision. If you like Cinema's features call Maxon and get the order straightened out. If you prefer LW buy it and move on.

[medula]

Ok, for me - Cinema has NEVER crashed in Mac OS 9 or Mac OS X. Really, I kid you not.

Shave and a Haircut only works in Cinema and Maya. http://www.joealter.com/front_page/trybuy.htm

Even better though, the people in this forum are helpful and wonderful! :love:

[videodv]

I will wait until tomorrow to make my mind up,.

I will call maxon first as there have my current order, and possible furtue needs.

If that fails (as I expect it will) I will order LW.

Chris

[AdamT]

Well, Shave actually started on LW, but Joe Alter had some kind of falling out with the LW folks and he's no longer supporting/updating Shave for LW. But in any case, Sasquatch is also pretty nice. I think Shave will be better than Sas once we get the new hair engine.

[kraal]

base you disission on research not our post i have used FormZ electric Image LW InfiniD and Cinema 4d before i decided what package I wanted......actually before I switched i was using pixel3d and loved it

[meloncully]

ummm, AdamT, i hate to break it to you but the lw interface is completely customizable...you just must have not used it enough or something.

teh right click menus are customizable too.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

eh,,.... what do you mean by procedural modeling?

[videodv]

I have tried various demos (including r8 - the only option I have at the moment with maxon)

I must say I would prefer to stay with cinema "BUT" after waiting so long for my current order of r8 (ordered aug 2002), I am getting a bit downhearted!

All I want to do is get on and try and make some good stories - videos!.

I am just starting my first storyboarding project. So I think I can wait a short time before I commit, "BUT" I must be sure that the prog that I use will be the right one.

On a side note I have of various progs. ( ts 5.2, animation master 8.5, xfrog 3.5, turbo cad, blender (used for my first animatin sequence) and yes - (poser (4+propack and version 5) not sure what I will use this for yet but!).

So you see I need a program to pull all the bits and pieces together.

Chris.

[JoelOtron]

If one of your beefs is that you still haven't received R8 yet, call Maxon USA (PhoneÊ+1 805-376-3333, Toll Free: 877-ANIMATE) and speak to Rafi Barbos (ext 5122). Those of us who were to receive the free upgrades seem to have gone to the bottom of the priority pile. I called Rafi and found out she hadn't processed my order since she needed me to pay for shipping and didn't have my credit card info. If I hadn't called, it wouldn't have gone out. A friend of mine had the same experience. I understand the dilemma they were dealing with...but still...

As far as Lightwave goes, --its a good program--one of the best--I'm sure you'll enjoy using it, but when all is said and done, I think its 6 of one, half dozen the other--or whatever that saying is. I think you'll find that each app has its strengths and shortcomings.

C4D XL is my favorite app-- period.

[videodv]

Thanks joelD

will do that when the sun comes up later today.

I really would like to stay with r8xl. Just getting a lot anoyed?

Chris.

[Edak]

I own both Lightwave3D :shrug: and Cinema 4D XL 7:applause: .

My main interests are in painting and photography, all as a serious hobby :arteest:. I use computer graphics currently mostly to complement these, and I have little interest now in animation. Both packages require a good deal of time to master and for purely practical (and financial) reasons, I decided to pick one. I pretty much flipped a coin in the end and decided to upgrade Cinema to release 8 and to sell Lightwave. I also have the Bodypaint program from Maxon. This is integrated well with Cinema, but can also work with Lightwave (though I have not done this personally). Currently, Lightwave seems more "main stream" with a huge user community. Cinema is still somewhat Euro-centric, but seems to be catching up.

Personally, I found Cinema is more intuitive to learn. Both have a
relatively sharp learning curve and will require time and effort to master.
I don't feel willing to invest the time now to master two programs. Both
programs can produce amazing art in the right hands. For animators, most
seem to like Lightwave and dislike Cinema (at least pre-R8). For pure quality of renders, Lightwave can produce qualitatively better images (though this may be splitting hairs for most purposes). Finally, being a Mac person, although Cinema 4D is not Mac-like, it runs the same on PCs and Macs and seems more platform-neutral. You will see that development of plug-ins for Lightwave tends to be more PC/Windows-centric.

Up to a week ago, I was ready to label Release 8 only a cruel hoax or "vapor-ware". But after spending almost an hour last week on the phone with the Maxon USA folks and their director of marketing, we got things squared away about my "free upgrade". Although at first I thought that they shipped it to travel west from California to Maryland, it looks now as though something is really on the way. As of today, a UPS package made as far as Illinois. Although I was frustrated to near the breaking point, I've decided to stick with Maxon/Cinema and anticipate getting R8. I should have R8 within the month.

As for Lightwave, I've offered my license for sale on Ebay . (see item 2086265255, closing in two days, reserve price $800, if you are in the market). If you have the time to master two apps., I think that Lightwave 3D can nicely complement Cinema.

Hope this helps.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by meloncully
ummm, AdamT, i hate to break it to you but the lw interface is completely customizable...you just must have not used it enough or something.

Yeah, my LW experience is limited to a head-to-head demo tryout against C4D a year or so ago. To be honest, I found Cinema so intuitive and LW so unintuitive that I probably didn't give LW a fair shake.

My comment about customizing options was based on a recent review--I think in 3D World. As best as I can recall, the author said it could be customized, but not that extensively, i.e., you can't move/replace those big buttons on the left-hand side, you can't make your own tabs across the top or rearrange stuff in them, etc. But my recollection is a bit dim, so I could be off base there.


Originally posted by meloncully
eh,,.... what do you mean by procedural modeling?

I mean like in Cinema, where you have a loft object, a boolean object, an extrude object, etc. You can go back at any time and change the loft parameters, move the boolean drill around, change the union behavior, that sort of thing--all with real-time feedback. And you can stack these objects as well, within each other and within deformers, which also remain live.

[anobrin]

How much of your life are you willing to spend waiting for Cinema to get film quality effects tools or implement a usuable dynamics system??
Lightwaves Subpatch modelor is head and shoulders above Cinemas modeling tools. and Lscript is much more powerful than C.o.f.f.e.e. in my opinion for automation.Including Auto character rigging!!.

ask yourself this: Could C4DXL Do the CG effects in camerons academy award winning "Titanic" today in 2003?
effects that were done with Lightwave 5.6!!

Could C4DXL Do the CG effects in Star trek Voyager today in 2003??
at some point you have to decide what your immediate and Long term 3D and Cg goals are and deciide what packeg is going top suit yur need as Thorn has done
By Switching to MAX 5 For serious Character work.

Why wait

[anobrin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AdamT
[B], you can't move/replace those big buttons on the left-hand side, you can't make your own tabs across the top or rearrange stuff in them, etc.



Pardon me But i added this particles( Pic) tab for a volumetric tornado scene i did recently. and you can move/change the textbased "buttons"

[anobrin]

BTW this test character animation was seemlessly shared with a MAYA user via the Kaydara Filmbox exporter of lightwave.

[AdamT]

Well, for one thing, I'm not planning on doing big-screen film fx. If I was I would learn Maya, XSI, or Houdini--not LW. But I believe that the shots you mentioned could be done in Cinema with the right operator at the controls. Did you see the intro. to Spiderman? All Cinema.

I agree that LW has the better modeler, but most of what it offers can be had in Wings3D for free--a nice complement to Cinema. And, just to stay current, Xpresso, not COFFEE, is the new scripting system for Cinema. As far as I can tell (still exploring) it's quite powerful for rigging and other purposes. Don't know enough about Lscript to comment.

I certainly agree that everyone needs to assess his or her 3D goals and go with the appropriate package. Just out of curiousity though, why do you continue to troll Cinema forums when you obviously think so little of the program? I mean, I have no great like or dislike for LW, but you don't see me on LW forums ragging on LW as an interface dinosaur with split modeling/animation programs, or asking why if the animation is so great the best LW animators use Messiah....

[AdamT]

And again, Maxon has announced that Cinema will support .fbx.

I don't understand how on the one hand you state you don't have time to rig/animate characters from scratch, so you use Poser, but on the other hand you need a program capable of film-quality fx--fx that generally require a team of artists working for months or even years to complete.

[JoelOtron]

Anobrin,

You assume that the only purpose/use for a 3d app is for the cg film industry.

Basically if the feaures you mention are important, then go with the app that has them.

But the features you listed aren't neccesarily important to everyone. Did you buy both Cinema 4d AND Lightwave? What made you part with the money--which must have been close to several thou for the combined purchase? What features in C4d really hindered you as a professional? Maybe if you are a character animator, C4d might not be the best choice when seeing what else is out there (maya), but I see plenty of quality animation work done in C4d all the time. Basically, a tool is a tool is a tool--I've used other 3d apps before C4d and they all have a place. But C4d fits me like a glove. Love it.

What amazes me is that people who dont even have a background in character animation are whipping up amazing things--and there own creations too--(ie AdamT, MV, and 3d Gary) using the new R8 tools. Thats very exciting.

On another note, Film/CG artist Simon Wicker even sold ILM on XL and it was used on many shots in the last SW film, as well as Gladiator. And who really cares who uses it anyway? If your answer is, "well 90% of the film industry use "blah-blah-bla" so I want to make sure I'm eligible for employment --then what made you spend 1600 of your hard earned dollars (pounds--etc) for it to begin with?

Joel

[JoelOtron]

And if bringing poser models into c4d makes me a "bringer of life/character animator" then I guess I'm one too! Cause thats what I do when I need a figure that moves in 3d space these days. I do it out of necesity and time constraints.

however It never occurred to me that that actually makes me a character animator...

cool.

[DaliFan]

"Could C4DXL Do the CG effects in Star trek Voyager today in 2003??
at some point you have to decide what your immediate and Long term 3D and Cg goals are and deciide what packeg is going top suit yur need"

according to that everyone should stop now and go to Maya then

I read a graph that went over a 5 year span. It was people hired by package. Maya had 43% stomping(it was sad actually) everyone and especially Lightwave. That was for 2002. It was 35% again stomping everyone in 2001. Max came in a strong second at 24% in 2002. The rest of the % was split between Houdini, Lightwave, XSI, and Cinema. That is not one field but all CG related fields. I forget where it was at but I am sure you could find it. Look for CG related job pages.

Best effects according to Industry pages breakdown like Houdini first, Maya a very close second in effects. All of them doing whatever you need.

Max is used in games and that is no mystery. Lightwave is used a lot for TV and some flicks but if you are looking for the real high... it is obvious learning Maya or XSI or Max (gaming) would take you further. So by your words he should avoid both lightwave and Cinema.

The thing that bugs me about Cinema is no support for n-gons. Adam I would not use wings when I paid for a modeling, animation, rendering package. That would be silly. Cinema is no wimpy program though and is coming along nicely.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by DaliFan
Adam I would not use wings when I paid for a modeling, animation, rendering package. That would be silly. Cinema is no wimpy program though and is coming along nicely.

I know what you mean, and in fact I do 99% of my modeling in Cinema. But Wings is nice, free, and supports n-gons. Why not use it if the job calls for it? A lot of very talented modelers who own Maya, Max, LW, etc., do their organic modeling in Wings.

[DaliFan]

wings does support n-gons? good deal

I will check it out. I used Nendo in the past so I should not have a problem.

[ThirdEye]

"How much of your life are you willing to spend waiting for Cinema to get film quality effects tools or implement a usuable dynamics system??"

Have you ever tried Dynamics, Xpresso and Thinkin Particles? OH surely you had... Have you ever read the list of movies in which C4D was used for visual fx? mmm

"Lightwaves Subpatch modelor is head and shoulders above Cinemas modeling tools."

tell newtek to add edge support before talking about modelers

"and Lscript is much more powerful than C.o.f.f.e.e. in my opinion for automation.Including Auto character rigging!!."

Try Xpresso instead of c.o.f.f.e.e.

"ask yourself this: Could C4DXL Do the CG effects in camerons academy award winning "Titanic" today in 2003?
effects that were done with Lightwave 5.6!!"

Already done, as I said before C4D was involved in many production nowadays

"at some point you have to decide what your immediate and Long term 3D and Cg goals are and decide what packeg is going top suit yur need as Thorn has done
By Switching to MAX 5 For serious Character work."

Max 5? No thanks, i don't want to get a job in game industry. I agree with someone who said "Cinema 4D: the most underevalueted software in the world" :rolleyes: Why people don't test programs before opening their mouth? :shrug:

[DaliFan]

I have not used Cinema before R8 so I want to say this

How many people have actually begun to even really test expresso, mocca, tp, and so on? I own the program and I have not even got into 5% of it. It is setup in a very straight forward way. The modelling tools are not the best IMO but it is getting there. The edge support helps a lot.

Early on I tested more then a few programs. The only one I honestly did not like was lightwave. That is not to put it down (I think some of the work can stand foritself) but it is to say that... it just did not work for me. More then the dual system.. it just felt odd and a tad old. Again, this is not a insult just a personal observation. Sure you get skytracer (make nice skies) and a hair plugin but both things can be done without a plugin. The whole feel of lightwave was off ---> for me <---

All the rest I tested were laid out in a way I could at least get around in. Even maya was not that bad.

I have to agree.. when someone has tested R8 and ALL of the NEW modules then they can say what it can and can not do. Since TP and Expresso are new (got node? :thumbsup: I do not think anyone has a real idea. Mocca on the other hand is a huge step in the right way for CA. Laid out great and has soft IK.

Since Cinema seems to really be building up now they can design better then other old packages trying to force it in.

Maxon get N-Gon support :) while it can be worked around and is not needed every time.. it would be nice.

If Cinema had the user base Lightwave or Max did you would see plenty of high quality work. It is more then capable. I think with R8 you will begin to see some very nice stuff.
:beer:

[dAfTiE]

Dalifan,if you've used Nendo, you should REALLY like Wings :)
Actually,I got to try Mirai about 5 months ago,
and IMHO wings has a better modeling workflow than that by now,
and it is still being worked on.

And as for the "I paid for a complete package so I won't use anything else."...
Well,no one package is the best for EVERYTHING...
That's what I use Wings for...It's the quickest damn poly modeler I ever used,
it's just so much more efficient in it's workflow than anything else I've tried.
So if you have a specific problem with c4d (ngons),
and there is a free alternative that can do this (and a couple 100 other things),
then why not at least give it a try?
It won't cost anything, and you might even find it enjoyable :)

And for the LW thing...it's a fine app,just not for me.
It just feels really counter-intuitive and inefficient to me.
It almost reminds me of Blender in a way,
in that you have to memorize this insane list of hotkeys,
or be forever damned to wade through a ton of tabs and icons to do anything.
Not as bad as blender,certainly,but getting there.
There is also the stability thing...seems to crash a fair bit more than C4D does.
(as with almost every program I've used...Cinema is rock stable)

[anobrin]

<i>
"why do you continue to troll Cinema forums when you obviously think
so little of the program? "</i>

Actually I think very highly of cinema for what it can do
Example there is NO reasonable Equivalent of the explosion deformer( great feature!!!) that i can find in lightwave and I like that cinema's floor object is infinate
and Lightwave has no "Instancing" feature in layout( Damnit!!!)

But im not so emotionally attached to either program that i cant be objective in
making an overall recommendation to a prospective new buyer.

<i>"And again, Maxon has announced that Cinema will support .fbx." </i>

WHen??? what about cinema users who wish to share complete scenes with MAYA workflows today??....... Last saturday???

<i>"I don't understand how on the one hand you state you don't have
time to rig/animate characters from scratch, so you use Poser,
but on the other hand you need a program capable of
film-quality fx--fx that generally require a team of artists working
for months or even years to complete."
</i>


Not understanding your camparison :-)
Needing a quick premade somewhat realistic CG human/ from poser For a crime scenere-creation or karate fight does not preclude the need for convincing volumetric shader effects etc.
and it does not take "years" to have a simple long cape/coat <b>REALISTICLY</b> blowing in the wind on a rigged figure unless you are attempting it with C4D's dynamics "solver"


<i>"if bringing poser models into c4d makes me a "bringer of life/character animator" then I guess I'm one too! Cause thats what I do when I need a figure that moves in 3d space these days. I do it out of necesity and time constraints.
however It never occurred to me that that actually makes me a character animator..." </i>

Uhhh...Why not??? :-) WHen you load the Daz Millenium MAN Into poser he just stands there in the default arms out position right? when you use the poser graph editor to make the character move and record the key frames and add secondary motion, arent you the one making him Move or "animating" him???? Methinks So..

But if you just render stills with imported poser Dude /Gals then NO you are not a character animator
Also if you are suggesting that you are not an animator becuase the riggers at DAZ made the model then that would mean that 99% of airline pilots are not true pilots because they Did not Design, Build and "rig" thier own aircraft.

<i>"Have you ever tried Dynamics, Xpresso and Thinking Particles?"</i>

I have the dynamics Package in R7 ...can it now suddenly Do realistc Clothing
on a character in R8??
Honestly can I Comment on Expresso as im still in Version7
and thinking particles Looks decent, Can it simulate fluid dynamics??


<i>"Have you ever read the list of movies in which C4D was used for visual fx? mmm"</i>

You dont really want to compare Visual/movie effects credit lists with Lightwave Do you ??


:shame:

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by AdamT
Well, Shave actually started on LW, but Joe Alter had some kind of falling out with the LW folks and he's no longer supporting/updating Shave for LW. But in any case, Sasquatch is also pretty nice. I think Shave will be better than Sas once we get the new hair engine.

It's also a LOT better integrated with Cinema than it ever was with LightWave.

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by AdamT
And, just to stay current, Xpresso, not COFFEE, is the new scripting system for Cinema.

No, it isn't. XPresso is a front end to COFFEE, not a replacement.

XPresso rocks, but without SDK support, it wouldn't be extensible. Maxon needs to look to the future; if they want to thrive, they have to grow their market share, and extensibility is a big benefit -- because it opens things up for more plugins.

[Srek]

Hi,
XPresso is no front end for C.O.F.F.E.E.
It's a completely different animal. The SDK for Xpresso (and TP) will be available later and writing XPresso nodes will pose no big problem to plugin developers.
Regards
Srek

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by Srek
Hi,
XPresso is no front end for C.O.F.F.E.E.
It's a completely different animal. The SDK for Xpresso (and TP) will be available later and writing XPresso nodes will pose no big problem to plugin developers.
Regards
Srek

Thanks for the correction.

And a quick question: Will the XPresso and TP SDK's include COFFEE and C++ versions?

(This is more out of curiosity than anything else, since I finally got myself a copy of VC++ .NET.)

[flingster]

don't bother with lightwave....questions on a cinema 4d forum IMHO.

personally i agree maxon has handled R8 pretty poorly from what i can see....i also went for R7-R8 upgrade path you talk about i am yet to see R8....after 3 calls to maxon uk.....

however we are talking small company here, and the reason my copy has not arrived...."we ran out of manuals"....as some other r8 users in the uk have got there copies i can only assume that R8 is very popular which is a good thing.

Maxon really need to get a grip with this for future releases which no doubt they will do. In the mean time, what is wrong with calling customers who have not received r8 and letting them know there is a delay. This is called proactive customer support, if this can't be done then why not issue an apology to the forums?
there are obviously a number of users out there including myself who are unhappy with a wait and see approach to delivery schedules!

[Srek]

Originally posted by Thalaxis
Thanks for the correction.

And a quick question: Will the XPresso and TP SDK's include COFFEE and C++ versions?

(This is more out of curiosity than anything else, since I finally got myself a copy of VC++ .NET.)

Hi,
COFFEE and R8 C++ SDK are already available. Please have a look at Plugincafe (http://www.plugincafe.com)
There is also a forum to provide developer support.
Xpresso and TP will be mainly accessable via C++, but ways and means to use COFFEE with XPresso are planned.

Hope this helps
Srek

[Jonathan]

All of this arguing and bag piping over program when the only one true thing remains. If you can't learn to model and animate well in one program, chances are, you're not gonna be any better at it in another. I myself am a lightwave user. I see many myths and misunderstandings about it in this thread and I have been using it since version 4.0 But that's not important. Credit goes to the author of images and animations while the tools used are renown for giving the artist the ability to bring those projects to light. I've created entire characters with just 3 tools in Lightwave but, what's that matter? What matters is that I can create the characters. If someone threw C4D, max or maya in my face, after a while of learning it, I'd do the same thing in it because I am a capable artist. That's what counts. These forums are supposed to be about sharing methods etc... not some gang war on which software is better than the other. If you want to know about Lightwave? drop into the Lightwave forum. If you want to know about C4D from a user perspective, drop in here. I drop in forums outside of Lightwave often to learn new things that I had not thought of using Lightwave. It helps be to be more eccentric in my creations. C4D, Lightwave, Max, doesn't matter! If you can't learn to create good content in one, chances are you probably are not going to be any better the other and are just using the software as an excuse for lack of creativity.

Long before there was bones and IK, people were morphing to do character animation. Try that tedium on for size.

[JoelOtron]

BRAVO

Anyone remember (the much referenced) Rustboy?

[AdamT]

Well said Jonathon. Every package has its strengths and weaknesses. Even inexpensive/free packages like trueSpace and Wings do *some* things better than high-end apps.

[JoelOtron]

Your "avatar" cracks me up Adam!

Awesome!

[videodv]

First off I would like to thank you all for your comments.

I think after a hard week at work I was feeling a lot more negative than I usually am, so I was getting a bit fedup with maxon's seeming lack of interest in us "free upgraders".

I think as been said a word or two on the forums would have been usefull, and I and others would not have felt so isolated.

Well would just like to close by saying once again thanks to you all, and I will be staying with maxon, (at least for now).

Chris.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by JoelD
Your "avatar" cracks me up Adam!

Awesome!

:) Thanks! It was kind of an accident when I was working on face/head poses and forgot to disable renderning on the eyes and teeth. I almost spit up when I came back and looked at the render. :eek:

[DaliFan]

"Long before there was bones and IK, people were morphing to do character animation. Try that tedium on for size."


:surprised

yeah Rustboy is legendary, now that has character all over it.. and done complete in infini-d

http://www.rustboy.com/

[gidgit]

Haha, actually this has been a great reading thread, and I for one am glad that it has been allowed to go this far....

This is what I have managed to get from this thread thus far for my own personal point of view...

1) C4D, though not quite there as of yet, is certainly poised to be... go Maxon go... :D

2) StudioMax is the gaming app

3) Lightwave, though having a large and very faithful following is losing ground to newer apps in all areas... largely due to persistance in having but one GUI, as in apposed to providing a more modern icon based GUI for it's new potential user's while still having the "classic" look option for those used to such... and it would seem to be lacking a few other modeling and FX stuff which will probely be included in the next version and/or will be included in some third party plug in...

4) Maya/Houdini/SoftImage are the leaders in the film industry

5) That I am not the only one who see's that it is better to learn more than one app in any graphic's area... 2D or 3D

6) I am not the only one who was in awe of the little fellar known as "Rustboy"

7) I think the person who suggested that if you cannot model with one app then chances are you can't model in another app either... dude... you are totaly wrong with this attitude...

four laws of the universe are... attraction/repulsion/persistance/change...

... to which the moral is... practice, don't give up, keep going... and never listen to anybody who says you can't do it... unless of course your life is at risk for obvious reasons... then do what comes natural... that one is called survival instinct... otherwise known as common sense........ [grin]

8) perspective in closing... ya does what ya can with what ya got... if what ya create is so good that it has extended life ahead then perhaps someone will take notice and assist you along the way... with an app, or a job or, better yet a big cheque ... no? You don't think so... back to "Rustboy" :D

and... if this was done with Carrara's little brother just imagine what could be done with C4D...

cheers

[Jonathan]

:airguitar

I don't know why I even bother. Oh well, cya! back to the Lightwave forum with its fading ground to other apps. hehehehe!

Well keep on trying to run fast in Nikes while running ever faster in reeboks because the laws of the universe permits.

[gidgit]

You bother because that's your nature... who you are

also, your example/analogy re- two different types of sneakers is nothing short of rediculous... albeit humorous :D

I suppose the new manipulation handles that trueSpace is sporting in version 6 are actually not required and serve little purpose... other than saving time and cross screen travel that is...

I suppose the newer UI that C4D has adopted since v6 was done only because the good folks at Maxon needed something to do... haha, even I had to laugh while typing that one... :scream: :scream:

oh why do I bother.... maybe because it is also my nature... hahaha

seriously though... did you know that some people who had used Windows for years, and were digital artist's of a very high caliber, were having trouble installing and running Linux... same computer, but different setup screen, and to some degree even the terminology was different... mount what? ... f- that they said, and back they went to Windows... but... some actually managed to stick with it for reasons of their own person, and still to this day, use Linux...

but the funny part of this story is really in how the Linux installation GUI has changed so much, in ease of use... much friendlier approach these days... hahaha... read between the lines here bud... by golly it is a much more realistic "sneaker" type story... and has every thing to do with how people have been trained via icons and how a certain company refuses to believe it, while other, much smarter groups, have recognized the obvious and made changes to accomodate the new user groups... :)

na, that's not it... you and one company are completely right while the majority are all wrong....hahaha, too funny

geez, I won't even bring up a certain paint app and something so little as the lack of sliders to be found... ****ing things only get in the way anyways... right? maybe they have changed this, but then again maybe not... I don't know, as I found the interface not quite to my liking and thus moved on to another app... to which I am able to work just fine... must just be me...

I happen to think that Maxon and few other companies are on the right track when it comes to GUI design ... but, then again, probably just me... probably because I wear no-name sneaks.... hahaha

geez, and here I thought I was over my bad hair day...

[DaliFan]

:thumbsup:

[Jonathan]

One thing I have learn about common sense, is that it's quite uncommon!

:beer:

[medula]

I wonder if the person who started this thread had an epiphany after reading all these comments and decided it would be better to go into a different field. (joke)

:eek:

[flingster]

in addition to my earlier comments...i have an update.

after my last call to maxon with them stating they would have r8 shipped by monday/tuesday of last week (as they had run out of manuals)....i found myself ringing maxon uk again this friday only to be told they had rang the printer who states they would be arriving with them this next week. All i can say is i don't know how the rest do it (lightwave, maya, xsi etc) but it can only be better....maxon don't on the surface seem to be learning....customers are paying a large amount for this product in a rather competitive market place....and customer service/sales on this front is well frankly "failing".....its getting past a joke....i'm fed up with it....and i want to see R8 soon!

(fed up with the fob off.....an excellent product let down by unnecessary failings in support....its time they become far more proactive....certainly in the UK). I'm more than happy to talk to maxon employees UK who are willing to correct me on this? but they need to bear in mind this is one customers experience so far....how many others are there out there experiencing similar service!:thumbsdow

[medula]

I believe the problem is the manuals. Here' s why. The initial shipments of Cinema 4D 8 manuals became unbound in less than a couple of days. This is not Maxons fault, it's the fault of the binder. So, Maxon had to replace everyones manuals. New orders are suffering as a result because Maxon is pulling all the manuls to replace them with ones that are not defective.

Hence this is a big and costly mistake that I'm sure Maxon is eating in more than way.

I just thought I should mention the reality of it all . . .

[flingster]

if thats the case then full credit to maxon for biting the bullet.

however why don't they just inform people of that when they call up, call the customer and inform them, or inform forums admins and disseminate the info that way....instead of myself and others having to get arsey on forums with something that is in essence avoidable.

[JoelOtron]

Not to invoke jealous stares, but I just received my 10 lbs of Maxon on Thursday. This is 4 days after settling things with Rafi in USA. I really needed it a month ago, when I had the time to insatall and learn it--now it will sit in the box for a few weeks.... But at least I FINALLY have it.

Being xtra cafeful when turning the pages in the manuals though.

[DaliFan]

can not argue with that flingster

If I was in your place...

the r8 studio bundle is 2400, lightwave with all kinds of help is roughly 1k US... maya complete (the one under unlimited) is 2k and 3dsMax5 will run you $3,195.00 with rumors of them cutting soon

it is a VERY competitive market.. getting even more so

[JoelOtron]

For those having doubts about C4d as a CA tool, check out what users are doing here:

http://www.postforum.com/forums/read.php?f=6&i=67642&t=67642

and here:

http://www.postforum.com/forums/read.php?f=6&i=67345&t=67345

Both were posted on Postforum. Both show that Character animation (and character modelling) is a talent and skill --3d apps are just tools. This isnt the stuff of walk cycles and motion capture import.

And for those who haven't seen Mantis from a few years back--here is he link (though it seems slow as I try to check it out now)

http://www.pocketmovies.net/detail_142.html

[Tronam]

I hadn't seen these before and it's nice to see some CA done with C4D. Thanks for the links. After reading through this thread though, it's ironic to find out which app the guy who created Mantis switched to shortly after making it. :)

-Tronam

[danb]

well i just wanted to add an interesting fact that i got from kaydara recently. a few days ago i recieved an email asking if i wanted to buy motion builder 5 from kaydara. i replied to the email saying i would buy it once the plugins for cinema were completed. kaydara then informed me that maxon is working on the plugins now and kaydara said that the plugins should be released in november. well i guess we'll just wait and see huh?

i wanted to post this because a few people were concerned with character animation in cinema 4d. maybe this will help some people decisions?

[AdamT]

Originally posted by danb
well i just wanted to add an interesting fact that i got from kaydara recently. a few days ago i recieved an email asking if i wanted to buy motion builder 5 from kaydara. i replied to the email saying i would buy it once the plugins for cinema were completed. kaydara then informed me that maxon is working on the plugins now and kaydara said that the plugins should be released in november. well i guess we'll just wait and see huh?

i wanted to post this because a few people were concerned with character animation in cinema 4d. maybe this will help some people decisions?
I guess the December cutoff should give Kaydara extra incentive to give Maxon all the help they need. :)

I just got my 5.0 upgrade the other day but haven't had a chance to play with it yet. Looks very very cool though--as if v.4 wasn't cool enough!

[gfx@rt]

Nobody cares what application you use if you design high quality 3D images that are rated high by everyone...



...and those who do care... no comment.

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread is being closed.

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