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mummey
05-16-2006, 01:13 PM
http://www.apple.com/macbook/macbook.html

http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html

Enjoy!
-b

spmonahan
05-16-2006, 01:51 PM
That's a nice little package.

pixelmonk
05-16-2006, 02:12 PM
*finger twirl*

Kai01W
05-16-2006, 02:51 PM
Ha, finally a black one!
Does still not look as nice as my thinkpad. Not edgy enough and the border of the screen is too big.
But still a step into the right direction ;-)

-k

eric3dee
05-16-2006, 06:27 PM
I had been waiting a few months for these now. My wife is getting one on Thursday :D

tciny
05-16-2006, 06:41 PM
Finally I can have OS X, Windows and Linux on one machine thats really portable, pretty fast, great value for the price and looks neat. Weeee! ;)
Only the integrated graphics chip saddens me, but then again, looking at other 13" notebooks, theres not really much else out there and 15" is to chunky for my likes.

Kai01W
05-16-2006, 07:07 PM
After reading a bit more I'm less excited. Its definately too heavy for a 13". I'm really uncertain about the reflective display too. Usually don't like this at all. The fact that it comes with two 256 memory sticks is stupid cause you cannot upgrade without throwing those away and 512 is not enough. Plus buying RAM (built to order) in applestore is pure insanity.
Last I don't see why to pay so much more for the black one (the 20GB more disc do not justify)

-k

Canadianboy
05-16-2006, 07:12 PM
time to start savin.. that black one is super sexy!

enygma
05-16-2006, 07:18 PM
Cool. My wife has been bugging me to get her an iBook for the past few months. Looks like I might have to grab one of those. Too bad that you can't select black or white for the cheaper model. Don't want to have to go all out and get a decked out MacBook just to get it in black.

zeilstra999
05-16-2006, 07:26 PM
Huh..... A little something I noticed when navigating apple's site to look at this...

The Power PC versions of the macMini and iMac are no longer listed.

So that leads me to this question: When are they going to release a Mactel Desktop?

iC4
05-16-2006, 07:49 PM
So that leads me to this question: When are they going to release a Mactel Desktop?

Intel will release woodcrest at june 19th. So I guess there will be new Powermacs around this date.

The Macbook would be nice if it would be lighter and wouldn't have a glossy display :(

tciny
05-16-2006, 08:03 PM
I really dont know why you're bothered by the weight. I have a 12" PowerBook here which is a approx. the same weight and you really couldn't call it heavy.

Garma
05-16-2006, 09:46 PM
I've been waiting for this for quite a while. Ordered right away, really looking forward to this sweet baby!

macsupremacist
05-16-2006, 10:10 PM
I agree, it's too bad that the black is only available for the top model; it looks great in it.

AjaBogdanoff
05-17-2006, 01:20 AM
What do you guys think about using one of these as a Maya-on-the-go machine? I'm sure it'd be pretty slow, what with Rosetta and the integrated whats-a-majiggy and all, but any guesses if it'd be usable for a little light animation work? :)

maX_Andrews
05-17-2006, 01:44 AM
it does have integrated graphics which makes it pretty useless for CG, but at this price for a coreduo notebook it's great for a tag-along machine which can be used as a render node as well. But don't expect to get any decent 3d performance until at the very least your chosen 3D app becomes a universal application. Battery life is claimed to be 6 hours so it's probably around 4.5 hours of high performance use, which isn't bad at all given the size, weight, and price.

Here's some photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pealco/sets/72057594136649292/
http://amacgenius.com/photos/album/macbook/

It's interesting how usually smaller=more expensive and less powerful, wheras here smaller=just as powerful and cheaper. Nice. I'd buy one but I don't need it.

magan3D
05-17-2006, 07:57 AM
What do you guys think about using one of these as a Maya-on-the-go machine? I'm sure it'd be pretty slow, what with Rosetta and the integrated whats-a-majiggy and all, but any guesses if it'd be usable for a little light animation work? :)

Hey, I don't know about the intergrated graphics, but I run a going on 4 year old mac thats got a 32MB graphics. This would be great to replace my 5+ year old iBook.

Any body gonna try maya on this sucker, on the OS X side?

tciny
05-17-2006, 08:26 AM
When I get mine I'll definately check out the Maya performance. Propably on Windows tho because of the whole rosetta thing.

Kai01W
05-17-2006, 08:48 AM
I really dont know why you're bothered by the weight. I have a 12" PowerBook here which is a approx. the same weight and you really couldn't call it heavy.

I have a 12" thinkpad which weighs almost half of the new macbook (this comparison is a bit unfair, I know). And thats almost maximum I could accept. I'd take a small notebook cause I want to carry it with me all the time (which I do actually) so weight is important.

-k

AjaBogdanoff
05-17-2006, 12:51 PM
Hey Bryan, that sounds like my iBook. :) I could never run Maya on it, though!

I figure it's going to be pretty bad with the double-whammy of Rosetta and the weak graphics stuff, but all I'd really need to be able to do is navigate in the viewport and manipulate light character controls without too much lag. So... we'll see! :)

mummey
05-17-2006, 03:23 PM
I have a 12" thinkpad which weighs almost half of the new macbook (this comparison is a bit unfair, I know). And thats almost maximum I could accept. I'd take a small notebook cause I want to carry it with me all the time (which I do actually) so weight is important.

-k

X Series Thinkpads make Macs look cheap ;)

tciny
05-17-2006, 03:52 PM
Holy crap, my sarcasm-meter just took down half of the room.
But yeah, for half the price, a faster CPU, a built in webcam, a remote with FrontRow etc. I'm definately willing to accept the weight :)

maX_Andrews
05-17-2006, 04:09 PM
Five pounds is a good weight for that size I'd say. Light enough to not be heavy, and heavy enough to not want to throw it around ;-D

Seeriously though, five pounds is a lot less than most books, and would feel like a featherweight compared to my seven pound 1999 powerbook g3 400mhz pismo, which is also black...hehehe.

Here's some first impressions, I'll start a new thread with these as well:
http://blogs.pcworld.com/techlog/archives/002084.html
http://www.macworld.com/2006/05/firstlooks/macbookfirst/index.php

tciny
05-17-2006, 04:13 PM
It's funny how everyone was complaining about how the black one costs 100 bucks more, yet all the photos I saw so far either in reviews or flickr show people with their black macbooks. Looks like a smart move by apple ;)

John-S
05-17-2006, 04:17 PM
Its only 5.2 lbs. There is only one current think pad thats lighter. The thinkpad is a little less then a half and inch bigger but still, its less then a pound lighter. All the other thinkpads are heavier. In fact pcmag did a review on the new thinkpad and the only thing negative about it was that it was way heavier than the competitions. That was a bigger faster thinkpad to compare to a macbook but still......It seems as though this macbook is light : )

maX_Andrews
05-17-2006, 04:36 PM
the cheapest thinkpad x60 with an optical drive is $1899, and it does not have a trackpad! That black macbook is starting to look like a pretty good deal LOL...

CupOWonton
05-17-2006, 04:37 PM
*finger twirl*
Im with ya man.

mech7
05-17-2006, 05:20 PM
Are they really charging an extra $200 between the middle and top only for a 20 gb bigger hdd :eek:

maX_Andrews
05-17-2006, 05:27 PM
no, you also get black plastic :-D

LiquidMetal
05-17-2006, 07:28 PM
Anyone know how Photoshop runs on Boot Camp Macbook?Really interested in getting it for some 2d work but I dont really know how the integrated graphics will handle 2d programs.

enygma
05-17-2006, 07:38 PM
I don't think Photoshop handles its stuff in the GPU. You would probably expect to see photoshop perform as well in a Boot Camp'd MacBook as it would in a non Mac laptop with the same processor speed.

maX_Andrews
05-17-2006, 08:47 PM
yes, many tests have shown that photoshop runs just dandy under bootcamp. Photoshop is all cpu-based, and does not take advtantage of OSX's coreimage 2d graphics acceleration, so photoshop would run fine even with the shoddiest of gpu's if the system had a decent processor and enough RAM.

jn2art
05-17-2006, 09:04 PM
I would buy one for this reason.

I have 2 macs and 1 PC at home very happy with all of them. But I need a new PC laptop to replace my old one. After searching the web most similarly spec'd PC cost about the same or more.

So I can get a single system PC Windows or maybe linux if I want to put in all the work required or just buy a MacBook that I can Put both XP and OS X on. The choice for me is fairly clear. I like Macs and some PC's but I will get what ever get the job done. Right now

DUAL BOOT MAC! It is literally like having 2 machines that work independently.

Math :
1PC + XP = 1PC running 1XP
1 MAC+ OSX + XP= 1mac Running 1 OSX + 1XP= 1 GOOD VALUE for the Buck

Just My 2 cents. I don't Knock what any one else is using just use what is best for you to get the job done. I use a PC at work.

mech7
05-17-2006, 09:49 PM
lol that explains it :)

no, you also get black plastic :-D

CupOWonton
05-17-2006, 10:01 PM
I would buy one for this reason.

I have 2 macs and 1 PC at home very happy with all of them. But I need a new PC laptop to replace my old one. After searching the web most similarly spec'd PC cost about the same or more.

So I can get a single system PC Windows or maybe linux if I want to put in all the work required or just buy a MacBook that I can Put both XP and OS X on. The choice for me is fairly clear. I like Macs and some PC's but I will get what ever get the job done. Right now

DUAL BOOT MAC! It is literally like having 2 machines that work independently.

Math :
1PC + XP = 1PC running 1XP
1 MAC+ OSX + XP= 1mac Running 1 OSX + 1XP= 1 GOOD VALUE for the Buck

Just My 2 cents. I don't Knock what any one else is using just use what is best for you to get the job done. I use a PC at work.

Not realy considering how very non-upgradable Apple makes their builds.
And the fact that Windows isnt realy being supported as it runs on a MacBook.
And the fact they cost more simply because they say apple. It would be better to run OSX on a PC-PC with Windows Vista later when it comes out.
Also, if hardware breaks down wile running in OSX, its not going to work running in windows, so its not like having 2 machines. Though Mac apparently runs the MAC versions slower than the PC version software of the same kind.

You alwayse see mac fanboys using lame excuses on why an Apple is somehow better like for example :" omg I have to do work to get a PC running". No you dont, go buy it from a good seller if you dont want to build one, which you can if you want unlike Macs. And if you need to upgrade a PC part, all you have to do is check its compatability open the case, swap a card/drive/ram, and load a freakin bios, big whoop. It doesnt involve scripting, or compiling to get a piece of hardware running. And I have yet to plug in a piece of hardware that my PC doesnt recognise by default. Though they run faster when you download a specialised driver for that piece of hardware.

tciny
05-17-2006, 10:22 PM
It's easy to change RAM or the HDD. What more can you expect from a Notebook? Especially of that size.

You cant run OSX on a normal PC. Not legally and not without complications like not being able to used the system update and so forth.

As for OSX being slower on same apps than Windows I guess you're referring to an article by a guy called Sehkon. In which case you missed the debunking (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Debunked%3A_Sehkon_s_Mac_OS_X_Ubuntu_WinXP_Core_Duo_benchmarking_results) :) (In short: He used an optimized memory allocation lib in win and linux but default malloc in OSX)

I guess the point why a lot of people, like myself, prefer OSX is that it really just works. I heared the same from a lot of Windows users, and had the same opinion while still working with Win2k but once you spend a longer time using a Mac you just really dont want to go back. Some of the best arguments for me are the responsiveness of the UI (none of that awfully slow redrawing lag that windows has) and the fact that Apple just really has become the leader in OS innovation (Spotlight/CoreGraphics/Hardware accelerated Desktop/etc.)... looking at the feature list of Vista you cant help but think: OSX does all that stuff already. Looking at the past releases I expect them to continue this with Leopard, which will be shown in August.

Guess it's the usual Mac<->PC dicussion which I first had as a PC user defending Windows and now the other way around :) (Should you care: For me the reason to "switch" was a DELL Notebook I bought before that. Defect Mainboard, HDD, USB-Ports and some defect that caused Windows to cripple its own system files after 5-10 reboots. I know from a number of people that they had similar problems with their DELL PCs. And at least my predudices were proven wrong as you might tell from this posting :))

PS: You mentioned Windows not officially supported on the MacBook. As you see on the website of BootCamp it's still beta and says that it'll later be part of Leopard. So you'll see Windows support later this year with the next system upgrade.

maX_Andrews
05-17-2006, 11:21 PM
To set things straight, here's a legit comparion between OSX and windows apps both running on a macbook pro: http://www.barefeats.com/bootcamp.html

As you can see, some things like rendering were faster under OSX, and gaming was better under windows. The latest patch of OSX has vastly improved OpenGL drivers which surpass even windows in the cinebench hardware render test, which takes advtantage of the new OGL drivers.

In the macbook pro and imac, the processor is socketed, so you can upgrade it to your heart's content. No news on whether the macbook processor is socketed yet, but the RAM and HD are easily user serviceable.

You alwayse see mac fanboys using lame excuses on why an Apple is somehow better like for example :" omg I have to do work to get a PC running".

No offense, but why are you posting this crap in this thread? There was not one comment about apple being superior, nor was there any PC/windows bashing. This is a thread about a computer made by apple, so coming into it with fanboy guns ablazing is only going to make people think the opposite of what you tell them. Everybody knows that you can get a PC for a lot cheaper than some macs. With this model, that is not the case. This actually happens to be an apple computer that is cheaper than anything with similar specs from sony, dell, HP, acer, or anybody. Yeah, apple fanboys are surprised too.

You don't have to like the OS and you don't have to like the comany and you don't have to even like the hardware, and that's fine, but if you are expecting to do anything but start pointless arguments in news discussions, all the while accusing people of being fanboys, well, you have another thing coming.

I probably shouldn't even post this, because it will probably just get worse, but I've never been good at editing myself.

maX_Andrews
05-17-2006, 11:34 PM
By the way, here's a fantastic photoset showing the complete disassembly of the new macbook (a white one): http://www.kodawarisan.com/macbook/macbook001.html

That was fast!

That optical drive is just dying to be swapped out for four SATA drives in a raid config...

jn2art
05-18-2006, 12:14 AM
Not realy considering how very non-upgradable Apple makes their builds.
And the fact that Windows isnt realy being supported as it runs on a MacBook.
And the fact they cost more simply because they say apple. It would be better to run OSX on a PC-PC with Windows Vista later when it comes out.
Also, if hardware breaks down wile running in OSX, its not going to work running in windows, so its not like having 2 machines. Though Mac apparently runs the MAC versions slower than the PC version software of the same kind.

You alwayse see mac fanboys using lame excuses on why an Apple is somehow better like for example :" omg I have to do work to get a PC running". No you dont, go buy it from a good seller if you dont want to build one, which you can if you want unlike Macs. And if you need to upgrade a PC part, all you have to do is check its compatability open the case, swap a card/drive/ram, and load a freakin bios, big whoop. It doesnt involve scripting, or compiling to get a piece of hardware running. And I have yet to plug in a piece of hardware that my PC doesnt recognise by default. Though they run faster when you download a specialised driver for that piece of hardware.

See first of all I actually do use windows also did you notice that I said I have a windows Machine. Oh you must have missed that. Yhat is OK though. I refuse to submit to the Mac vs PC thing. Which is actually a farse since this argument is now not even based on the hardware any more. BOTH RUN INTEL CHIPS and they are more alike than not. PC Stands for Personal Computer which both machines are.The arguments you are really trying to make comes down to OS and yes I would run OS X over Windows any time just my personal preference but I will use what my employer gives me. Longevity for my machines is important to me and as long as I can do my job with what I have I am cool. Like I said before whatever gets the JOB DONE OS X or Windows.

Final Thought; Even Windows Users (proper term) spend lots of money on their machines to get Top of the Line equipment so why do you guys have such a problem with people who like OS X doing it. I do not See OS X User telling you, Hey that PC cost to much why put all that money into that machine you gonna keep spending money for upgrades. It Comes down to personal PREFERENCE.

CupOWonton
05-18-2006, 12:29 AM
It's easy to change RAM or the HDD. What more can you expect from a Notebook? Especially of that size.
And for the previous mac desktops? Replacing/Upgrading processors and videocards?
I dont expect them to allow the new ones to upgrade to other videocards this time around either even if theyve gone intell.

You cant run OSX on a normal PC. Not legally and not without complications like not being able to used the system update and so forth.
Thats apples own stupid fault.

As for OSX being slower on same apps than Windows I guess you're referring to an article by a guy called Sehkon. In which case you missed the debunking (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Debunked%3A_Sehkon_s_Mac_OS_X_Ubuntu_WinXP_Core_Duo_benchmarking_results) :) (In short: He used an optimized memory allocation lib in win and linux but default malloc in OSX)No, people all over have done their own tests showing the same kind of results. Either a video driver is just way too slow in Mac, or its not processing as fast in a renderer. All standard too, not many running optimisations. I believe some were even conducting their own tests here on CGtalk.

I guess the point why a lot of people, like myself, prefer OSX is that it really just works. I heared the same from a lot of Windows users, and had the same opinion while still working with Win2k but once you spend a longer time using a Mac you just really dont want to go back.
Unless you want to play video games, or render speedily, or use a lot more programs, or upgrade whenever the hell you feel like it.

Some of the best arguments for me are the responsiveness of the UI (none of that awfully slow redrawing lag that windows has)
Hm, occasional slow draw, or a program that completly dissapears from the screen when it crashes... choices choices..
and the fact that Apple just really has become the leader in OS innovation (Spotlight/CoreGraphics/Hardware accelerated Desktop/etc.)... looking at the feature list of Vista you cant help but think: OSX does all that stuff already. Looking at the past releases I expect them to continue this with Leopard, which will be shown in August.
Call me crazy, but a lot of innovational stuff was made by Linux and others as well. Actualy, the best current demonstration of a desktop environment is for linux.
But I could actualy care less, because Windows runs more programs and games natively than Mac or Linux. Doesnt mean Windows is perfect, it just better serves more peoples purposes in using a PC.

Guess it's the usual Mac<->PC dicussion which I first had as a PC user defending Windows and now the other way around :) (Should you care: For me the reason to "switch" was a DELL Notebook I bought before that. Defect Mainboard, HDD, USB-Ports and some defect that caused Windows to cripple its own system files after 5-10 reboots. I know from a number of people that they had similar problems with their DELL PCs. And at least my predudices were proven wrong as you might tell from this posting :))
I cant blame anyone for hating Dell, they made my grandmother cry.They have made my "list". But I dont defent Windows, windows needs to be filled with a lot less junk, I just dont like Apple's hype/elietist advertising and the users who perpetuate it.

PS: You mentioned Windows not officially supported on the MacBook. As you see on the website of BootCamp it's still beta and says that it'll later be part of Leopard. So you'll see Windows support later this year with the next system upgrade.
What I was saying is Microsoft isnt supporting it. They arent going to write drivers for that setup, and they arent going to be directing any help towards it. Apple has even stated that theyll develope bootcamp, but outside of bootcamp itself they arent going to be supporting anything with Windows.

maX_Andrews
05-18-2006, 01:08 AM
I am typing this from a black macbook in the palo altos apple store. The keyboard is amzingly fast and I don't think i've ever been able to type as fast as I am now. The glossy screen, which I had thought would be too glossy, is actually quite nice and seems more usable than the glossy screen on my roommate's vaio laptop. This thing is going to be durable. When looking at the ports, the black plastic is about 1/5 of an inch thick, which is a substantial amount of stuff. This thing will last a while. Opening and closing it is very nice, the magnetic latch has the right balance of strength so that you can open it with one finger without lifting the laptop off of the desk. Temperature-wise, the macbook is warm but not hot, I'll try to do something more processor intensive and see if it gets any hotter. In any case the only warm is toward the back where the hunges are, and the palm rests are only slighty warmer than room temperature.

The main thing I am noticing is that this machine is VERY snappy and responsive, much more so than my dual processor 2.0Ghz G5. Comparing the black and white next to each other, the black is about 15 times sexier. I hate to say it but I would pay the premium just to have it black, it just feels better to use. It also makes the windows pop out a bit more as they are separated from the environment, but on the other hand the black bzel makes the display seem smaller as opposed to the silver bezel on the macbook pros and cinema displays, which is why I have always disliked LCD's with black bezels. But when everything is black, it's sexy.

It's also very functional in terms of it's layout. On the keyboard area there is only the keyboard and the trackpad, plus a flush black power button in the upper right corner. And as I said, this keyboard is meant for typing. Perfect amount of feedback and the keys are very stable. I am confusing ; for ' much less often than I normally do, which is nice because that bugs the hell out of me...it's not my fault I have big fingers!

The ethernet jack has a cool red glow coming from it but I think it might be some alarm system apple has hooked up to keep the macbooks free from a security tether. Everything is very solid, and there is nothing that is wobbling about or rickety, overall I am very impressed and I think I'll buy one after I get my money from my summer job.

And that's that!

Max, signing out!
http://www.3dfightclub.com/~madmax/uploads/Photo%202.jpg
(taken with the built in webcam)

LiquidMetal
05-18-2006, 02:58 AM
I am typing this from a black macbook in the palo altos apple store. The keyboard is amzingly fast and I don't think i've ever been able to type as fast as I am now. The glossy screen, which I had thought would be too glossy, is actually quite nice and seems more usable than the glossy screen on my roommate's vaio laptop. This thing is going to be durable. When looking at the ports, the black plastic is about 1/5 of an inch thick, which is a substantial amount of stuff. This thing will last a while. Opening and closing it is very nice, the magnetic latch has the right balance of strength so that you can open it with one finger without lifting the laptop off of the desk. Temperature-wise, the macbook is warm but not hot, I'll try to do something more processor intensive and see if it gets any hotter. In any case the only warm is toward the back where the hunges are, and the palm rests are only slighty warmer than room temperature.

The main thing I am noticing is that this machine is VERY snappy and responsive, much more so than my dual processor 2.0Ghz G5. Comparing the black and white next to each other, the black is about 15 times sexier. I hate to say it but I would pay the premium just to have it black, it just feels better to use. It also makes the windows pop out a bit more as they are separated from the environment, but on the other hand the black bzel makes the display seem smaller as opposed to the silver bezel on the macbook pros and cinema displays, which is why I have always disliked LCD's with black bezels. But when everything is black, it's sexy.

It's also very functional in terms of it's layout. On the keyboard area there is only the keyboard and the trackpad, plus a flush black power button in the upper right corner. And as I said, this keyboard is meant for typing. Perfect amount of feedback and the keys are very stable. I am confusing ; for ' much less often than I normally do, which is nice because that bugs the hell out of me...it's not my fault I have big fingers!

The ethernet jack has a cool red glow coming from it but I think it might be some alarm system apple has hooked up to keep the macbooks free from a security tether. Everything is very solid, and there is nothing that is wobbling about or rickety, overall I am very impressed and I think I'll buy one after I get my money from my summer job.

And that's that!

Max, signing out!
http://www.3dfightclub.com/%7Emadmax/uploads/Photo%202.jpg
(taken with the built in webcam)

Haha great review and pic!Hopefully getting mine in about 2 weeks!

tciny
05-18-2006, 08:34 AM
Great review :)
Makes me want to get mine all the more. And yes... I too might be one of those idiots to pay the extra 100€ to get it black. Damn you Apple.
The webcam pictures seem a bit like the color's distorted tho... guess you shoud've calibrated it first :D

Zarf
05-18-2006, 03:00 PM
And for the previous mac desktops? Replacing/Upgrading processors and videocards?


Both possible with the last several generations of mac desktops.


Thats apples own stupid fault.


Irellevant, he was simply pointing out that OSX-X86 is not suitable for use on generic intel boxes, despite you yourself saying the following:


It would be better to run OSX on a PC-PC with Windows Vista later when it comes out. "


Additionally it is rather amusing that you seem to think it would be 'ok' to run OSX-X86 on an unsupported configuration but the same is apparently not true for windows:


And the fact that Windows isnt realy being supported as it runs on a MacBook


So its ok to run OSX-X86 on unsupported hardware, but not windows? Why?

What I was saying is Microsoft isnt supporting it. They arent going to write drivers for that setup, and they arent going to be directing any help towards it. Apple has even stated that theyll develope bootcamp, but outside of bootcamp itself they arent going to be supporting anything with Windows.

To paraphrase a wise man, 'Thats Microsoft's own stupid fault'.

Hm, occasional slow draw, or a program that completly dissapears from the screen when it crashes... choices choices..


The type of situation you describe is almost certainly the fault of the application developer, and not the OS itself. When this happens, what does the OSX crash handler say? Unless youv'e done some technical digging and can provide details, theres no reason to believe that OSX is at fault. No OS can make up for someone elses poorly written code.

Personally I develop software on OSX, and have never during that time encountered a crash in the applications I was working on that could not be directly traced to a problem in the application code itself.


Call me crazy, but a lot of innovational stuff was made by Linux and others as well.


Your crazy. The Linux kernel itself is just a retread of concepts that are decades old. Not a whole lot of innovation going on there. The rest of what is commonly reffered to as the 'Linux' OS, the GNU tools, are also just retreads of decades old concepts.

Gnome and KDE are hardly innovative, and in a lot of ways are still playing catchup with win32.


Actualy, the best current demonstration of a desktop environment is for linux.


Which desktop enviorment would that be? I assume your not referring to XGL, which isn't really a desktop enviorment at all, just a hardware accellerated X server and a pretty window manager (Quartz Extreme on OSX). A 'desktop enviorment' entails a lot more like GNOME or KDE, neither of which are particularly amazing.


I cant blame anyone for hating Dell, they made my grandmother cry.They have made my "list". But I dont defent Windows, windows needs to be filled with a lot less junk, I just dont like Apple's hype/elietist advertising and the users who perpetuate it.


Sorry, I missed the parts in this thread where elitist mac users were perpetuating Apple's hype?

Regards
Xarf

tciny
05-18-2006, 05:17 PM
I tried not to reply because it's just really a lot of smattering, but I guess Zarf's reply is what a lot of people here are thinking.

Kai01W
05-18-2006, 05:32 PM
Well CupOWanton is right in that those so called "innovations" listed (Expose, widgets, desktop search) had been available on other platforms aswell (sometimes as shareware, etc.) So Apple hardly invented those things.
Plus I never felt Apples GUI more responsive than windows. And I seriously doubt it is. Probably just the other way.

As for the weight thing. My X31 weighs ~1.3 kg which is one kg less then the macbook. I said this comparison is unfair cause its subnotebook, with all its disavantages. But you feel every kilo when you carry it around alot.
For me its either a small and really light one or a big powerful one with at least 15" screen. I hoped the macbook would fall more into the subnotebook category concerning size/weight.

The other issues I mentioned still remain (price of black one / memory update problem) and I'm still not conviced about the glossy display.
It is relatively cheap however.

-k

John-S
05-18-2006, 06:14 PM
nobody I knew ever used expose, widgets etc on a pc. Most didn't know anything like them existed. Plus they would make your pc lag like a mother. Apple integrated all of this into their OS and made them the popularity that they are. If you said widget before nobody had a clue what you were talking about. Now everybody knows. Why? Apple. Sure 3rd party products are available and similar but apple inovated by making them known, useful, an everyday thing that you can't imagine not having (rather then have to search for a 3rd party app that you don't know exists anyways or doesn't work or isn't supported by MS). Now windows has to jump on the bandwagon. Windows users should love Apple, if it wasn't for Apple what would windows have to copy? I know everyone is going to say they can care less about those stupid little things but then when windows pops up with them. Suddenly everyone uses them. Whats funny is that almost every mac user is a pc user also. They just have a preferance to mac becuase they use both on a regular basis and hence they prefer macs. Or they are switchers. As for pc users, most don't have hardly any experiance at all with the mac platform. They don't own an Apple or use one very often to even know the difference (although they will claim they do). There has got to be a reason why Apple becomes a lifestyle for the Apple switchers/users of both OS's? Its not like we just woke up one day and decided to be Apple enthusiasts.

Plus, Apples GUI is far more responsive then windows. Having 5 macs and 5 pc's I have never had a mac have to redraw any desktop icons etc. Not even close. I have multiple monitors changing their desktop pictures every 5 seconds on each, magnify docking on, Maya unlimited running (along with another handful of apps at the same time) widgets "dashboard app" constantly on etc. Not to mention using expose with a million apps running with all of this. Never had to redraw or had the computer stumble. I'm no computer expert but if that has to do with Apples GUI then I guess I'm pleased with it...LOL.Not to mention the differance of how Apple organizes things vs MS. If apple isn't a leader of innovation with their OS then why is the competition following them in such odvious ways? Last time I looked a leader was the person being followed, not the other way around.

beaker
05-18-2006, 06:46 PM
Well CupOWanton is right in that those so called "innovations" listed (Expose, widgets, desktop search) had been available on other platforms aswell (sometimes as shareware, etc.) So Apple hardly invented those things.Apple just takes good ideas and greatly improves on them. They put that last 10% spit polish on it that really makes a product shine.

The gui was slow in older versions of osx pre quartz extreme(ie opengl accelerated gui), but as long as you have a modern machine with a gpu in it, the gui is very snappy.

CupOWonton
05-18-2006, 08:41 PM
I am become Mac, eater of worlds, and fanboy of the great and all mighty Apple.

Honestly man, you make a lot of general statements based on nothing but your own opinions. realy. Widgets and all the nice extra features theyre boasting for Vista, realy arent attracting the attention. Infact, a lot of people dont like having the extra crap on their OS's. They just want something that works. If Windows re-tooled their installation programs so they have an optimised version for stable/fast work and play, and an unoptimised version for people who want all that garbage, that would be great.

Its not like we just woke up one day and decided to be Apple enthusiasts.
I think it was a personal issue. Being able to join up with a user base notoriously known for being outwardly uppity/napoleonic/elietist towards PC users simply because they didnt join in the i-mac craze, or dont own every version of the I-pod.

Last time I looked a leader was the person being followed, not the other way around. I guess every small unknown party who actualy developed the programs and additions that both Apple and MS both innevitably copied & encoperated into their OS's are realy the ones " on top" then. :rolleyes:
No, the leader is the one dominating the market. And who would that be?
And who just retooled themselves so they could be on Intell's too just like PC's? Hmmmm.:curious:

maX_Andrews
05-18-2006, 10:41 PM
Honestly man, you make a lot of general statements based on nothing but your own opinions. realy.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...just....AHAHAHHAHA...oh man...wooooooooooo.....LOL

CupOWonton
05-18-2006, 11:31 PM
Edit: Oopse, Edit button was way too close to the quote button.

John-S
05-19-2006, 03:23 AM
This was an interesting statement I found:

"With the introduction of the Apple MacBook, one of the new features offered to end users is the ability for users to replace the internal hard drive. Typically, Apple laptop hard drive replacement has required the involvement authorized technician in the past."

"Both the MacBook's RAM and Hard Drive are accessible through a panel under the battery and the process has been detailed in this Video from MacWorld."

Video Link
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8c6ckjy-gdY

As for warranty....thats undecided......

CupOWonton
05-19-2006, 04:30 AM
What do you mean Undecided? Does it say that in the manual?
" Apple has yet to decide weither replacing internal components withou tthe assistance of a certified Apple technician present will or will not void your warranty"?

Kai01W
05-20-2006, 06:14 PM
nobody I knew ever used expose, widgets etc on a pc. Most didn't know anything like them existed. Plus they would make your pc lag like a mother. Apple integrated all of this into their OS and made them the popularity that they are. If you said widget before nobody had a clue what you were talking about. Now everybody knows. Why? Apple. Sure 3rd party products are available and similar but apple inovated by making them known, useful, an everyday thing that you can't imagine not having (rather then have to search for a 3rd party app that you don't know exists anyways or doesn't work or isn't supported by MS).

Aeh.... This is getting weird. You should then call Microsoft "innovative" for taking those ideas tweaking them a little and put them for use for a wide audience with Vista, cause even today nobody knows about that stuff. Apples marketshare is still very low you know...
Really this is no innovation at all. Apple does innovate in various places, so no need to go too far with praising them.


As for pc users, most don't have hardly any experiance at all with the mac platform. They don't own an Apple or use one very often to even know the difference (although they will claim they do). There has got to be a reason why Apple becomes a lifestyle for the Apple switchers/users of both OS's? Its not like we just woke up one day and decided to be Apple enthusiasts.

I switched from Macs to PCs in 2000 though I still work with macs alot. Never regretted the switch. We should call M$ innovative for coping OS 8/9 and making a really decent OS for a wide audience. Cause really NT/2000 was a pleasure to work with compared to OS 8/9. ;-)

-k

John-S
05-20-2006, 07:00 PM
I believe a company is innovative for improving on existing technologys. I believe the ipod was extreemly innovative and continues to be inovative. The technology was already around, but what company brought them to what they are today? If a company like Microsoft takes the trashcan from Apples OS and includes it into theirs I don't call that innovative. I call it copying. I'm sure both companys copy here and there but Microsoft is a little more famous for it arn't they? I also consider different software innovative....wether it be Apple or someone else. Almost all software released is based off existing software, its just packaged and reintroduced in a better method. Improving on an existing concept (or new) to bring forth new methods to me is innovative! Apple improved existing technologys and packaged them with an OS which hasn't been done ever before as far as I am aware....Thats inovative! A wheel goes back hundreds of years but when they created the tire and filled it with air.....innovative? Its like a tracktor vs a wheelbarrow.

Windows is now however going to copy Apples packaging methods (of their os) to the T....again!

What do you mean "nobody knows about that stuff"? Apple may have only 5% market share or whatever at the time but they are EVERYWHERE! Every Windows user I know could tell you what widgets etc are. Apple is all over the news, commercials, malls, you name it. People are not blind.

BTW....
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_17/b3981413.htm

Also, I'm not sticking up for the OS's other then OS X. I used microsoft then too and disliked Apple. But then when they came out with OS X and Microsoft is still 6-12 months away after all these years to releasing a new OS....I have no regrets! And I do have 5 pc's and 5 macs like I have stated several times prior. I have reasons behind my comments.

Kai01W
05-20-2006, 08:13 PM
You still failed to explain the difference between copying and innovating here...
Instead you use the nebulous concept of "improvements" as difference. Could you please tell me what exactly was improved? And even then, this is no innovation. Actually Mircosoft is blamed for exactly that taking other peoples ideas and incorporating them into their OS. No difference to apple in that very respect.
Innovating is to introduce something new. Not polishing others ideas. Its as easy as that.

And no, widgets, dashboards, desktop search are not much more known then before, despite the media hype.

-k

tciny
05-20-2006, 08:24 PM
And no, widgets, dashboards, desktop search are not much more known then before, despite the media hype.Yet Apple got famous for it because they were the first ones to make it available and usable for a broad audience. So even if you don't want to call them innovative, you'd have to at least admit that they have a good hand when it comes to finding existing technology and improving upon it so it's easy to use and improves the way you work.
The big factor why people refer to Apple as innovative imho is the speed with which they bring new technology to the market. I mean, just look at WinFS...
Where Microsoft makes huge promises, then misses it's own deadline a couple of times and releases a reduced version of the feature, Apple says nothing until they suddenly present this final, working new feature that everybody is wowed by. So without even talking about the quality, Apple just does a lot better at selling their "innvations".

John-S
05-20-2006, 09:16 PM
You failed to mention what other OS comes with those features built into it? You failed to mention why the ipod is considered innovative? If Apple is not an innovative company then why are they know to be the worlds MOST innovative company for the last 2-3 years in so many popular non Apple Magazines etc? Time Mag, Newsweek, etc?

Microsoft is known for taking Apples Features directly out of the Apple OS and Putting them into windows.

I'm afraid you need to stop questioning me on this and start questioning the rest of the world (meaning the media etc) that is claiming that Apple is the most innovative company in the world right now. Apparently, I'm not the only one here who believes this......

tciny
05-20-2006, 09:39 PM
I'm writing this from my PowerMac, will be getting my MacBook on monday, so it's not like I'm not convinced how well OSX works and how much good stuff it offers, but I feel like you need to see things more critical.
I mean, deskop search has been done before. Just like Konfabulator was there way before Apple introduced Widgets. It's not like these are Apple inventions. (Wheras Exposé is afaik)
So if you praise them for those features it shouldn't be because they were the first ones to pull it off, but because they were the first ones who got it out there working, easy to use and built into OS seamlessly.
Also, I think you need to give MS some more credit for the stuff they do. Of course, Microsoft ripped a lot of ideas from Apple, and that's why they wanted this option to do it legally for 5 years in exchange for Bill's live saving investment, but things like desktop search are definately not part of that. Again, just look at WinFS. I mean, it's still not delivered, after 12 years in development, and Microsoft will most likely not bring into Vista what they first announced, but the idea was their own... or at least not ripped from apple :)

CupOWonton
05-20-2006, 10:43 PM
You failed to mention what other OS comes with those features built into it? You failed to mention why the ipod is considered innovative? If Apple is not an innovative company then why are they know to be the worlds MOST innovative company for the last 2-3 years in so many popular non Apple Magazines etc? Time Mag, Newsweek, etc?

Microsoft is known for taking Apples Features directly out of the Apple OS and Putting them into windows.

I'm afraid you need to stop questioning me on this and start questioning the rest of the world (meaning the media etc) that is claiming that Apple is the most innovative company in the world right now. Apparently, I'm not the only one here who believes this......

Only 8% of the computer market believes that, and even that's questionable.
What APPLE is is succesfull with a Hardware/Software locked elietist image they get to toat about, which has greatly deminished now that theyve dropped down to using PC's unning Intells and a MAC OS. They arent inovative, theyre succesfull at forcing their hardware and software down peoples throats with meaningless advertising and insulting their compedators on TV as much as possible. Theyre usualy the first to start -integrating- what already existed elsewhere, doesnt mean theyre innovative, just means theyre the first of the 2 popular OS's to integrate it.

What apple has is image, and not much else, but people will cater to that as long as they get to be a part of that image. Like buying clothes from Louis Vitton. Doesnt mean the clothes are good, just popular and elietist based because so few can afford it on any given day.

What the news says isnt alwayse the truth.

archerx
05-20-2006, 11:30 PM
I agree with CupOWonton 100%

I use macs almost 5days a week and really don't see what's so special about it... (please some one tell me....) infact it gets quite annoying really fast....

John-S
05-21-2006, 01:46 AM
Ok first off I'm not trying to argue with you tciny. My last post was not aimed at you. However I think we should clear up this whole widgets thing. Before people take credit away from Apple for them remember that they work off of different technologys and are argued to be part of an original idea from Apple since 1984 "desk accessories". I encourage you to lookup pictures of the desk accessorys if you haven't seen them anybody. Here is a statement out of an encyclopidia....

"Dashboard vs. Konfabulator"

"Dashboard has been widely compared to Konfabulator (now Yahoo! Widget Engine) as a copy to it, due to the similarities between their graphical aspects and that they both use the term “widgets” to describe the objects that operate within their environments. Although Konfabulator was released before Dashboard, supporters of Dashboard argue that it is based on Apple’s Desk Accessories, first released in 1984 with the original Macintosh. Desk Accessories, similar to widgets, were small mini-applications that operated on a user’s desktop, but disappeared in later versions of Mac OS. (in fact, the Calculator desk accessory remained in the Mac OS up until OS 9, 17 years without an update). The code bases for Konfabulator and Dashboard are also different; whereas Konfabulator uses XML and JavaScript to generate Widgets, Dashboard uses HTML, CSS and JavaScript."

Plus they are activated into its own expose styled layer and are run though Apples Safari browser in a different manner then 3rd party widget engines.

Here is actually a picture of them and a story:
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Desk_Ornaments.txt

Here is a statement from the same encyclopedia on expose:

"Exposé was introduced with Mac OS X v10.3 ("Panther") in October 2003. Since then, several applications for Microsoft Windows and X Window System (i.e. Unix/Linux) have duplicated its functionality. A new feature in Microsoft's upcoming Windows Vista operating system, "Flip 3D", also bears a slight resemblance to Exposé. Similar features are also available on Unix/Linux systems with Komposé, an Exposé clone for KDE, and Compiz, which contains built-in Exposé functionality which can be activated by pressing F12."

Plus I can't recall any programs that will stand up to or look much like Automator, ichat 4 way confrencing with h.264, or spotlight. Yes I believe this was a breakthrough, I can search any of my pc's and find results on the network faster with expose on my mac then any search app you can find available on the pc by far. Spotlight is absolutly instant! I don't even navigate to find an app or song anymore I just enter the first letter or two and its up and running befor I could think of navigating too it.

Digit
05-21-2006, 02:00 AM
I agree with CupOWonton 100%

I use macs almost 5days a week and really don't see what's so special about it... (please some one tell me....) infact it gets quite annoying really fast....

Archerx, Can you explain what you dont like about them?

I have never used a mac but am thinking of getting one as Im not crazy about windows generally and Vista is looking pretty awful to me whereas Mac OS looks pretty cool!

beaker
05-21-2006, 02:01 AM
What APPLE is is succesfull with a Hardware/Software locked elietist image they get to toat about, which has greatly deminished now that theyve dropped down to using PC's unning Intells and a MAC OS. They arent inovative, theyre succesfull at forcing their hardware and software down peoples throats with meaningless advertising and insulting their compedators on TV as much as possible.Yea, they haven't done anything good or innovative with any of the software they bought. FCP, Motion, DVD studio, Shake, Itunes, Automator, etc... all suck ass. Zero good stuff has come of them. People only buy them because Apple misrepresents them and says all other software sucks.

Also god forbid they make software that sucks ass and only runs on the machines they manufacture or only operating systems that you don't run. Cough.....Sgi, Alias, Wavefront, Studiopaint,.......Quantel........Cough....... Cough....... Discreet......Davinci. What a horrible company.

John-S
05-21-2006, 02:05 AM
LoL........

CupOWonton
05-21-2006, 02:44 AM
Yea, they haven't done anything good or innovative with any of the software they bought. FCP, Motion, DVD studio, Shake, Itunes, Automator, etc... all suck ass. Zero good stuff has come of them. People only buy them because Apple misrepresents them and says all other software sucks.

Also god forbid they make software that sucks ass and only runs on the machines they manufacture or only operating systems that you don't run. Cough.....Sgi, Alias, Wavefront, Studiopaint,.......Quantel........Cough....... Cough....... Discreet......Davinci. What a horrible company.

But Microsoft didnt HAVE to buy Macromedia or Adobe to get them to put good products on their machines, Apple however had to start buying software because of lack of interest and the threat of losing other companies support like Macromedia and Adobe. Infact, FC was bought from Macromedia and then turned into an Apple only app, and Adobe's products arent realy that over powered by FC's abilities. I-tunes is a joke to suck the money out of idiots who fall for that kind of marketing pc or mac, and all it is is a Meda Player + I-tunes store UI. The list goes on.

But still, the additional software is not the OS.
Their OS is not 'innovative' they just integrated some already created software into their OS before microsoft did, big whoop. Their only real exceptional decisions were when they first started creating MAC which was to start with security first, and then work on everything else. And using a GPU enhanced system to take the load off of the CPU, which now vista will be using. Though I dont expect Vista's to be as stable since it is it's first incarnation.

Also, SGI filed for bankrupcy didnt they? People several years ago finaly realised the specialised machines werent all they were cracked up to be when new PC"s were starting to rival them. So what Discreet is on PC only, you can still install it on the next pc when it comes out. It just means they chose wisely.
As for Quantell and many other video and audio editing devices that run on their own hardware, thats their own issue. They run exceptionaly fast on specialised hardware, like having a card for rendering, or a card for calculating physics. Sometimes its just better to have a dedicated software/hardware setup for sertain services. Doesnt mean its cheap to replace though. Those devices are realy meant for large buisnesses that make enough income to replace those once something bigger, badder, and better comes along.

Also, why list Alias/Wavefront?
#1, Alias was bought by Discreet.
And
#2, are you saying they dont release software for mac?
http://www.macworld.com/news/2001/09/19/maya2

beaker
05-21-2006, 02:48 AM
They arent inovative, theyre succesfull at forcing their hardware and software down peoples throats with meaningless advertising and insulting their compedators on TV as much as possible.

Pepsi, Budwiser, Coke and Carl's Jr. said in commercials that I would get hot chics if I consume their products. BMW says their cars are the ultimatte driving machine and Mazda says their cars go zoom zoom zoom but I can't even hear the engine on my friends Mazda 3. Mountain Dew make me think that I can headbut a Ram. Sony said a few years back that there is a PS9 out there that implants in my brain.

Commercials should never make jokes or be creative because we are all brainless morons who take everything they see on tv literally.

I'm suing budwiser damnit!

John-S
05-21-2006, 02:54 AM
"Mountain Dew make me think that I can headbut a Ram."

You mean you can't??? DANG'IT!!!
(LOL)

CupOWonton
05-21-2006, 03:00 AM
A fictional battle between a Coke can and a Sprite doesnt equate to Apple insisting PC users *who are 90+% of the market mind you* are dull/stupid people for using PC's.
A car company toating that they got an award for crash safety doesnt equate to that either.
MountainDew's commercials are satire on 'extreme' freaks. Are 'extreme' freaks their compedators? No, theyre actualy some of the people theyre trying to cater to with comical advertising. Foods advertising is notably ficticious when it comes to well any product, but thats all common sense. We know cars cant transform into monsters, except Truckzilla. But one PC compedator insulting the largest user base and making claims about a compedator wile lying and trying to state that they themselves have no faults, which any user would know to be a complete lie, is well, lying.

So, again, Apple OS hasnt realy been innovative lately, neither has Windows, so dont go claiming otherwise.

John-S
05-21-2006, 03:01 AM
"Their OS is not 'innovative' they just integrated some already created software into their OS before microsoft did, big whoop."

deja-vu for the first GUI for the Personal Computer....LOL

Microsoft always seems behind doesn't it....then there OS is released with a stricking resemblense to Apple....

beaker
05-21-2006, 03:02 AM
But Microsoft didnt HAVE to buy Macromedia or Adobe to get them to put good products on their machines, Apple however had to start buying software because of lack of interest and the threat of losing other companies support like Macromedia and Adobe.I seem to remember Microsoft buying Softimage and porting all their software to Windows and then sold the company to Avid. Then and only then did all the other highend 3d software packages port to Windows. Nothing highend ran on windows before that!

Also, SGI filed for bankrupcy didnt they? People several years ago finaly realised the specialised machines werent all they were cracked up to be when new PC"s were starting to rival them. So what Discreet is on PC only, you can still install it on the next pc when it comes out. It just means they chose wisely. First, only 10% of Sgi's market was computer graphics. 90% of their money was made in government, education, scientific fields. So them going belly up has nothing to do with it.

As for discreet it is still a specialized machine even if it uses an AMD processor. You can't install it on the next pc when it comes out. It only runs on a specific config with over 50-200k of additional hardware that goes with it. They are turnkey setups, not a $1000 dells. Actually a linux box running FFI costs the same as an SGI.

Also, why list Alias/Wavefront?
#1, Alias was bought by Discreet.
And
#2, are you saying they dont release software for mac?
http://www.macworld.com/news/2001/09/19/maya2I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that Alias made software that was Sgi only and that was their right.

beaker
05-21-2006, 03:29 AM
But one PC compedator insulting the largest user base and making claims about a compedator wile lying and trying to state that they themselves have no faults, which any user would know to be a complete lie, is well, lying.Oh god, they insulted people by calling the other 90% dull. Lying bastards, we do not perform dull little tasks!

Sue them dammit! I sue everyone who makes fun of me because I'm a pussy who gets easily offended. Say "dull" again, I dare you, I double dare you!


You know how dumb this whining sounds? Get a life and bitch about something real. I don't get my panties in a bunch about Dell, Intel, or Microsoft commercials that say similar "lies" as you call them.

CupOWonton
05-21-2006, 05:08 AM
I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that Alias made software that was Sgi only and that was their right.

Ah, ok, I didnt even realise Discreet had their own hardware boxes. NM. I thought you were just naming companies you thought didnt have software on MAC, that makes a lot more sense now.
Still, yes, within their right, But again, that has nothing to do with Apple not being innovative.

Zarf
05-21-2006, 05:15 AM
A fictional battle between a Coke can and a Sprite doesnt equate to Apple insisting PC users *who are 90+% of the market mind you* are dull/stupid people for using PC's.

I find it funny that you are so ready to crucify Apple for insulting PC users yet you yourself are willing to make some horribly prejeduical and nasty comments like this:


I-tunes is a joke to suck the money out of idiots who fall for that kind of marketing pc or mac,

The irony of it all.

Regards,
Xarf

CupOWonton
05-21-2006, 07:35 AM
I find it funny that you are so ready to crucify Apple for insulting PC users yet you yourself are willing to make some horribly prejeduical and nasty comments like this:



The irony of it all.

Regards,
Xarf

Thats actualy just my opinion of any company trying to charge you for cheaply compressed music up to a dollar or more for 1 song.

The only music ive bought lately has been on CDs actualy, I like having a physical copy thats printed into something solid and reliable.

Realy I just have a distaste for how the music industry shafts most of their artists whenever they get the chance, so I usualy buy from artists i just REALY like, or know that the money is going more towards their pockets rather than to 30 middle men who make millions each year off of other peoples work.

Zarf
05-21-2006, 07:47 AM
Thats actualy just my opinion of any company trying to charge you for cheaply compressed music up to a dollar or more for 1 song.

I don't take issue with your opinion of Itunes or Apple in this case, but rather calling Itunes users 'idiots', which seems highly hypocritical given the nature of your protests concerning Apple's 'getamac' ads. Not sure what I wasn't clear on, but if any more clarifcation is needed I would be happy to provide it.

Cheers,
Xarf

tciny
05-21-2006, 08:32 AM
Dear lord this thread is going down the drain :D
CupOWonton: So the basic concept here is that people either share opinion or they're idiots (EDIT: see the use of this word as a quote :)) for falling for a company that basically recruits its customers from elitist assholes that sell shit for gold?
I cant help but think tho, that all this hype about Apple, regardless if you read the newspaper, sites like digg.com or slashdot, must have some good reason apart from good marketing. Because while marketing works really well in a lot of cases, it rarely ever works for a nerdy crowd such as slashdot. If there weren't some real good arguments that speak for OSX, they would've ranted about it this much, for that long a time. Don't you think?

John-S
05-21-2006, 08:58 AM
Man, the word idiot sure gets thrown around alot here....LOL
I could care less about being called something as imature as a fanboy (makes me feel like I'm in gradeschool again) etc....but idiot?

Maybe to the insanely trained ear can you tell the difference of compressions but I sure as heck can't. I love being able to support my favorite bands by purchasing my favorite songs (itunes or whichever) for a fair price that I can't tell the difference of a cd or download. I like some bands and want to support them but I don't care to support them enough to buy their album that I will only enjoy 1 or 2 songs on. So now with downloads I can actually buy a song and support them instead of not buying the album at all. I think they win there. Not to mention I actually do know people that stopped doing the filesharing as soon as individual songs where available at a decent price, and available whenever they felt like purchasing them on the internet.

Plus, TV shows. Nice to miss an episode or something and be able to purchase it for $1.99. Not to mention Podcasts and short films. - Pixar : ) -

I must be an idiot : ( but a happy one : )

archerx
05-21-2006, 09:05 AM
Archerx, Can you explain what you dont like about them?

I have never used a mac but am thinking of getting one as Im not crazy about windows generally and Vista is looking pretty awful to me whereas Mac OS looks pretty cool!

It's little things that add up; like no right clicking on the standard mac mouse, I actually prefer explorer to finder, you can't see photos in thumbnails in finder (if you can please tell me, i've tried with no luck), clicking wrong in photoshop sends you to the desktop, the shortcuts in ps have changed to incorporate that stupid apple key so now i have an extra key to worry about, safari is pretty unstable so i have to use opera and other things like that.

maX_Andrews
05-21-2006, 09:08 AM
Just so you know, songs on the itunes music store can be downloaded in lossless format instead of mp3, and then converted later. The lossless format is about half the size of a .wav file but uses sophisticated algorithms that cut the file size without doing anything to the actual data. So you could buy an album in lossless from the itunes music store, and burn it to a disk which would have exactly the same fidelity as a store-bought CD.

http://www.neilturner.me.uk/2004/May/09/apple_lossless_encoder.html
http://aroundcny.com/Technofile/texts/mac060204.html

maX_Andrews
05-21-2006, 09:16 AM
It's little things that add up; like no right clicking on the standard mac mouse, I actually prefer explorer to finder, you can't see photos in thumbnails in finder (if you can please tell me, i've tried with no luck)

The mouse that comes with all new macs is a multi-button mouse with a scroll ball, they started this last year: http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/

Here you go for the previews:
http://www.3dfightclub.com/~madmax/uploads/viewoptins1a.gif
http://www.3dfightclub.com/~madmax/uploads/viewoptions1.gif

Here's some keyboard shortcut hints:
http://www.3dfightclub.com/~madmax/uploads/keyshortcuts.gif

John-S
05-21-2006, 09:21 AM
I don't wanna invade your post archerx becuase you are entitled to your opinion but the finder is rumored to be completly redone for the Leapord OS due out in dec-jan I think. The finder is a weakness I believe but it should be alot better soon. Having spotlight though I personally never use it.

Alot of the computers are shipping with the Mighty Mouse now which is a great mouse and is four button. Plus pressing the control key isn't that hard but if it bugs you.....Not to mention Apple isn't forcing you to use their mouse. Every PC I buy comes with a cheesy stock mouse that I replace with a better one most the time anyways. Heck you can plug in you favorite pc mouse that you already have into your mac and get to work : ) At least the Apple keyboards (non-wireless) have 2 usb ports on them. Thats a hany feature : )

Clicking off screen to and the Application dissapearing ends up being normal to most people and frustrating on the PC when it doesn't. You have expose and the dock to bring it back its not like its lost and gone forever. Moving around windows on a mac is a far advantage then moving around windows and resizing them on the pc.

Is one more button to learn really a downside to an OS. How long does it take to learn it? Apple users have to learn the windows buttons the same way.

Safari is the most Stable Browser I've used Period! (mac or pc) Others are just as advanced (although i think safari's is easier to use the advanced things then other browsers) and some things are not compatable for safari as well as other Browsers (although the same goes for all browsers) but stability is the highlight of Safari. 5 macs and I never have it crash. Honestly! I've had others crash (especially the explorer for mac) but not safari. I use Safari and Firefox the most now. I found these to be the most stable : )

**********added***********
BTW, since you mention photoshop, did you know that spotlight will search the layers of you photoshop documents for text that matches? Pretty nifty, Just found that out a little while back : ) (I know its not a showcase feature but for those who didn't know that and use Macs and Photoshop, it might prove handy)

beaker
05-21-2006, 09:35 AM
Ah, ok, I didnt even realise Discreet had their own hardware boxes. NM. I thought you were just naming companies you thought didnt have software on MAC, that makes a lot more sense now. Discreet uses a standard highend IBM workstation box but with a few additional oem hardware that discreet wrote their own drivers for.

Still, yes, within their right, But again, that has nothing to do with Apple not being innovative.If you read up to my original response look at what response of yours I was quoting. It was the whole part where you said that Apple was shoving the hardware/software down peoples throats.

I already gave my opinion on page 2 about Apple's "innovation". They just take ideas that are so so, polish them up and make them work all smoothly. Turn the gui from crap to something nice that is intuitive. Make something that takes 20 clicks in windows, only 2-3 clicks in osx. Like google's stuff. All the google technology isn't anything new, but they take ideas and make them work really well (gmail, gcal, picasa, gnotes, etc.....).

Doing things better then everyone else is still innovative. There are no truely original ideas anymore. Look at the Nintendo Wii. Moving a controller around in the air is nothing new, but compare the grace and the way it integrates into the system to the way Sony is doing it with the PS3 (crap half assed added last minute feature because Nintendo has it). The Wii is pretty damn cool and everyone is calling that innovative. Food for thought.

John-S
05-21-2006, 09:45 AM
"Doing things better then everyone else is still innovative." - Amen (LOL)

These days its really tough to make completly new things for an Operating System. Mostly all they can do is add features or improve existing ones. What do you expect them to do with an OS, drive you to work? If you have an OS that has been years ahead of another as far as features go....At some point you will have to consider them leading. Maybe not market share but in technologys. Even the little things like being able to access over 1.7 GB's of ram for our 3D programs. Windows? Don't think so, not without modifying your OS's settings that causes instability. Apple, Access almost the 4 full gigs no problem : ) No adjustments needed. Who's the one crashing when they try and open that big file???

maX_Andrews
05-21-2006, 10:00 AM
Innovation is very different from invention. Invention is where you create something new. Innovation is where you think "outside of the box" and figure out a new way of doing something so that it works better. Apple does both, (as you can see by their 2000 or so patents), but innovation is what we as consumers benefit from the most.

But innovation also requires a bit ofinvention to work. You can't just slam a bunch of good stuff together and call it innovation, the magic is in the fabric that holds these things together. This is very apparent when you compare a macbook pro to an acer. They both may have the exact same components, but the acer, although it works fine, is just a mash-up of parts. The macbook is innovated. It is a system of parts that are thought of on a holistic level, from case the processor to display to gpu to the features in the OS to the magsafe power connector. And innovation is the spice that makes the whole "it just works thing" go round.

And this is why although vista may have most of the current "parts" that OSX has right now, like indexed searching, live previews, "gadgets," blah blah whatever, they will not "just work" because they were added, not innovated. And this is why vista is taking so long to actually come out, because I'll bet a ton of the stuff they added just isn't feeling good. Things like spotlight in OSX (instant full-content indexed searching) are great because they work everywhere. There is a spotlight search bar in the upper right corner, you can spotlight search in system preferences, and each finder window has a spotlight search bar. This is the innovation of it, it's what makes it transparent and easy to use and helpful.

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