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Igors
05-09-2006, 11:17 PM
Hi, gentlemen

Don't laugh too much the attached image :) That's only a naive try to use the combo particles+blobs (PPBasic + MrBlobby). So, if we use better particles and better blobs, then we've a better result? We tried and we think that no. More powerful tools give us more and more options/features and, yes, faster render speed. But IMO principal defects remain same. We could get only "something like water" and only after long, long efforts.

We heard about great RealFlow system but didn't use it. Maybe water effects should be implemented as a specialized plug-in (hmm.. it would be not a cheap plug-in). We see no cons against this opinion. But let's try to investigate why the posted example is so poor. After all, what's so bad we do? Are particle emitters suitable to make fountains? We heard that yes. Are metaballs ok to create liquids? Well, at least it's first what we read about metaballs. We think our problems are:

1. It would be nice if blob's shapes would be variable from sphere to prolonged ellipsoid depending from blob's speed (see "root" of fountain).

2. It would be nice to have a balance of mass. We know that particle systems are able to generate several child particles when hit/collision happens, but if all children are same blobs as original, the result = absurd

3. It's very noticeable that a "standalone" blob-sphere looks ugly and we need rid of it. Increasing count of particles is a very ineffective way, such "brute force" method eats render time but gives a very little progress. We experimented with up to 50K particles but we still have nothing to proud. IMO the right way here is to create 3-4 blobs instead of single one. But it's possible only if we know "which particle is which", otherwise our construction of "mini-blobs" will jump in animation from one particle to another.

This list can be enlarged, but it's already easy to see: we are crashed (see attached image)not because we've bad particle/blob systems, but because we've no any interaction between them. And IMO this "little" detail would give much more valuable effect instead of improving and improving systems that work "for themselves only"

halfworld
05-10-2006, 10:20 AM
Hey Igors,

Well, I do use Realflow, however, it doesn't work with EI for anything but simple scenes (you can bring a simple fountain into EI but you can't bring fountain water splashing into a pool because it is too complex for the Realflow plug-in/EI). I have a feeling this is down to EI not liking live plug-ins that create a million plus polys, a requirement when you want to do the attached with Realflow).

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/rfmovie.mov

Anyway, because of this there is still no practical way to do realistic water interaction in EI.

When it comes to simple fountains (what we use the most) the most useful settings I've found for getting realistic water (and I am no expert) are:

Emitter settings:
Viscosity of liquid
Resolution (size/number of blobs)
V emission random
H emission random

Blob type:
Liquid (the blobs interact with each other / stick to each other a little)
Dumb (the blobs ignore each other)

Daemons:
Gravity
Wind (with scripting ability, I like to attach a sine wave to the wind).
Age (blobs are deleted after 'x' frames).
Noise (fractal wind field to add a small 'random' element).
Lonely (any blobs that are too far away from other blobs are deleted).

Blob deformation:
Speed stretching
Speed flattening

All in all, it's pretty complex!
Ian

Igors
05-10-2006, 12:02 PM
Hi, Ian
All in all, it's pretty complex!Yes, as we understand, RF combines particles system and metaballs engine. On this way there are no problems to pass data from one part to another, but IMO this approach is heavy a bit. Why a water plug-in should re-discover a lot of bicyrcles, like "wind", "gravitacy" etc. etc. if they are 100% traditional options of any partycle system? We think it should be imported (hmmm... like a FACT file :))

halfworld
05-10-2006, 04:39 PM
That's a really good idea, but realflow is a stand alone application...

Are you saying that If there were a water plugin for EI you could attach it to... say... a gravity plugin or wind plugin... and the 'gravity' plug-in would affect the particles (or any particle plug-in)....

Likewise you could add any object to a 'wind' plugin and it would be affected by it?

Very open, very cool :)

WmH
05-10-2006, 06:16 PM
One major reason your fountain looks unconvincing (shape wise) because you are using a cone as the projection method for the particles. Water doesn't form a cone when squirted from a nozzle. Is that the tool or the artist? If you were handed the ubernurb modeler (EIM) and were (only after a long time and with much difficulty) able to come up with a human face that was very flawed, does that mean that the tool is useless to model heads with? The answer is of course no, it is a fine tool for head modeling...in skilled hands.

One of the largest problems with using particles/blobby for modeling water is that water always maintains a constant volume particle+blobs does not, so the artist must never allow the appearance of fluid expansion or contraction. Also the breakup of the main stream into tiny particles is also, often problematic. But that is what the skill of the operator (artist) is for the goal is not an accurate scientific simulation of fluids but a pretty (and/or convincing) picture or series of pictures.

It would be great to have better tools.... but particle/sphere or particle/blob things done (even years ago) in EI still look fairly impressive even by todays standards.

I think almost all of these were done with the Dante particle generator.

http://www.eridia.com/speciaux_en.html

So, the Artist makes the tool creative, not the other way around

Igors
05-10-2006, 09:05 PM
Hi, Ian, William
So, the Artist makes the tool creative, not the other way aroundWe are not artists, so we cannot debate this definitely classic sentence :)
One major reason your fountain looks unconvincing (shape wise) because you are using a cone as the projection method for the particles. Water doesn't form a cone when squirted from a nozzle. Is that the tool or the artist? If you were handed the ubernurb modeler (EIM) and were (only after a long time and with much difficulty) able to come up with a human face that was very flawed, does that mean that the tool is useless to model heads with? The answer is of course no, it is a fine tool for head modeling...in skilled hands.Your considerations are absolute reasonable, but please agree: an example of head modeling cannot be used/extrapolated for all things. Drop a stone in water and see ripples. Here we can talk only about a tool that makes physically correct ripples or nope. We noticed many times that artistic creativity and physical correctness are going together:)
It would be great to have better tools.... That's we talk about
Are you saying that If there were a water plugin for EI you could attach it to... say... a gravity plugin or wind plugin... and the 'gravity' plug-in would affect the particles (or any particle plug-in)....Oh, no, Ian, we are talking about much more simple things: any particle system assigns attributes: speed, mass and particleID (1, 2, 3 in our post) to any generated particle. And nobody interferes (and it's not a large work) to export them for their further using.

WmH
05-11-2006, 12:32 PM
I see... Then, we agree: it is not an easy thing to get realistic fluid effects out of particles/blobby or particles/spheres. It is often very tedious to get the desired result and sometimes the realization falls short of the imagined graphic (though that is so often true of any component in any 3D package;-) Add to that Blobby is in need of a serious overhaul.

Maya's fluid effects demonstrates that an entirely new approach sometimes works very well (particularly in interaction, efficiency and image detail). Are you talking a completely new approach or a new method or application of particles/blobs?

Igors
05-11-2006, 12:56 PM
Hi, William
Are you talking a completely new approach or a new method or application of particles/blobs?IMO a water task is near to 50/50. Any fountain needs a lot of particle system options, same as a lot of metaballs options. Our proposition is to make a bridge between EI particle/metaballs systems, now they work not in tact each to another. Say shorter, give us some input data and we return your more intellectual blobs.

halfworld
05-12-2006, 11:40 AM
Here is an EI water test.....

It's just over one second, I had to manually convert 27 OBJs to Fact to get this to work (using transporter). I got bored with converting... so ... 27 frames :)

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/rftest-ei.mov

What makes the water look realistic is seeing the specular break up as the blobs fall over the side of the fountain...

Also, the water splashes into a pool at the bottom and causes ripples (you can only just see this because of the short movie).

Ian

plsyvjeucxfw
05-12-2006, 06:45 PM
Very nice.

In addition to the specular break up, there is a pulsing, a sort of in and out, expand and contract to the volume of the water stream that gives it a rythmic quality. The particles just flowing over the edge swell, then break and fall, making the volume pull in. The column of water as a whole waves in and out as it falls.

As the particles fall and break up they do so with very realistic density and weight. Looks terrific.

If and when OBJ2FACT becomes available for a PC you can do batch conversions, much easier.

Igors
05-13-2006, 08:05 AM
Hi, IanHere is an EI water test.....

It's just over one second, I had to manually convert 27 OBJs to Fact to get this to work (using transporter). I got bored with converting... so ... 27 frames :)

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/rftest-ei.mov

What makes the water look realistic is seeing the specular break up as the blobs fall over the side of the fountain...

Also, the water splashes into a pool at the bottom and causes ripples (you can only just see this because of the short movie).

IanNice movie (even in its sketch variant). But it's RF, right? So, to create a water we cannot rely on EI plug-ins, we need to use RF (in its "in house" variant :)). Or what? We've no idea that "EI water" should be "absolute best in 3D", we are just looking for a way(s) to make it better as it is now :)

halfworld
05-13-2006, 09:17 AM
Yes, there is no plug-in that can do this in EI. I created that in Realflow, however getting files from realflow into EI is a nightmare.

Batch converting in O2F would be great, BUT, I am told (I don't have it) that you still have to manually rename each file which means I would have to rename 600 files by hand. No thanks :)

If Jens reads this^ Feature request ;)

In Realflow you create a plane and it places a blob at each normal (higher density mesh, more blobs) then you link the fountain to the plane and then they can interact (create ripples). You can then apply defoms to the plane to create waves etc. I don't have blobmaker but I'm sure it could get close... Does it do Speed streaching? I don't think it would take many extra features to get there... Interaction with solid bodies? Okay, that would be VERY hard to impliment :)

Splashes are created with particles btw....
Ian

Igors
05-13-2006, 10:48 AM
Hi, IanIn Realflow you create a plane and it places a blob at each normal (higher density mesh, more blobs) then you link the fountain to the plane and then they can interact (create ripples). You can then apply defoms to the plane to create waves etc. I don't have blobmaker but I'm sure it could get close... Does it do Speed streaching? I don't think it would take many extra features to get there... Interaction with solid bodies? Okay, that would be VERY hard to impliment :)As we know, our particle systems have collision detection. But we think it's untimely yet to talk about interaction with solid bodies if we've not more or less accurate simple water jet :)

halfworld
05-13-2006, 03:31 PM
Kill joy ;)

I am curious, can you share you 50k blob fountain? The biggest attribute when it comes to creating realistic water must be resoluiton (more small blobs). It is certainly so with realflow.

Ian

Igors
05-13-2006, 07:20 PM
Hi, IanI am curious, can you share you 50k blob fountain?Sorry, but no, a promo of BM features is not a goal of this thread. We can say only there is a little benefit from large muscles without a portion of brain :)

halfworld
05-13-2006, 07:26 PM
Okay, fair enough. Going back to your first post, interaction between particles would be the major missing link. Seeing blobs push each other around (force away from the emitter) does the trick.

Not to talk about BM too much, but in the sample movies it doesn't seem to have this ability.

Ian

Igors
05-13-2006, 08:38 PM
Hi, IanOkay, fair enough. Going back to your first post, interaction between particles would be the major missing link. Seeing blobs push each other around (force away from the emitter) does the trick.

Not to talk about BM too much, but in the sample movies it doesn't seem to have this ability.

IanMetaballs have only vertices and facets of linked child groups. That's too few data to organize any pushing :)

NorthernLights
05-14-2006, 03:43 PM
Maybe I missed something in this discussion but I've got a free plugin for importing RealFlow meshes into EI and exporting animation data from EI into RealFlow.

That having been said I'd like to see somebody do something cool in RealFlow and render it in EI with Caustics.

halfworld
05-14-2006, 06:39 PM
Hey Blair,

Yeap, your great free plug-in does the trick for very simple simulations, but anything complex simply crashes the Plug/EI.

I emailed you an example of this a couple on months ago... I can resend if you want...

Basicly, if you want to have a fountain, that's fine, but if you want to have a realwave (for a splash or fluid flowing into a pool etc.) then you're talking over a million polygons per .bin, the plug-in can't handle this (you just go into a terminal loop/spinning beach ball).

A possible solution is to export .objs from Realflow instead of .bins and convert to .fac and fact cycle in EI, unfortunatly batch conversion from .obj to .fac doens't exsist in Transporter and isn't practical in OBJ2FAC (yet!). This would be the prefered method because .bin files don't contain normals, but once converted to .fac you have normals, so renders are several hundred percent faster.

I'll do you a movie with caustics this week ;)
Ian

Igors
05-14-2006, 07:02 PM
Maybe I missed something in this discussion but I've got a free plugin for importing RealFlow meshes into EI and exporting animation data from EI into RealFlow.

That having been said I'd like to see somebody do something cool in RealFlow and render it in EI with Caustics.We talk not about RF but about how to coordinate particles+blobs in EI to make "RF here". Accurate and step by step (no loud declarations)

FACT FORM linked to particle plug with 'SETD'
The tags are:

- 'SPED' - speed - 3 floats per point
- 'MASS' - energy - 1 float per point
- 'PRID' - unique ID - 1 ulong per point

That's enough for our first adagio with blobs

halfworld
05-19-2006, 02:56 PM
Blair,

I'm afraid this is a bit rough and not at all pretty, yet, but here you go :)
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/watercaustics1.mov

Ian

FelixCat
05-19-2006, 04:25 PM
Ian
Your water looks like very frozen vodka (yum!) and the caustics looks good. The liquid looks a bit like sirup, i think... is RealFlow?
Nice
I hope, someday we will can to import huge flows to EiAS... The Bryan plugin is a big help BTW.

FelixCat

halfworld
05-19-2006, 04:40 PM
Hey FelixCat!

Can you even freeze vodka? :)

It's supposed to be water!? The liquid is far too viscous but the simulation times get prohibitive (I'd have to leave it overnight to do it properly).

Yeap it's realflow, what impressed me the most is that this simulation previews in realtime in openGL WITH transparency preview enabled. Very impressive :)


I'll improve it if/when I have time,
Ian

Igors
05-22-2006, 09:31 PM
Hey FelixCat!

Can you even freeze vodka? :)

It's supposed to be water!? The liquid is far too viscous but the simulation times get prohibitive (I'd have to leave it overnight to do it properly).

Yeap it's realflow, what impressed me the most is that this simulation previews in realtime in openGL WITH transparency preview enabled. Very impressive :)


I'll improve it if/when I have time,
IanFrom what we've read here we understood: we should not think about "EI water", our particle systems are busy with other, more important things/tasks and such little interior details as fountains etc. are out of their attention. Instead we must learn how to use RF. Ok, thx, clear

BTW:Vodka freezes below -30 (one of Igors is from Siberian).

bronco
06-02-2006, 11:13 PM
hi igors, all,

i have read all of this with interest.

take a look at this:
Schwall02_mp4.mov (http://www.orangefx.de/rodeo/schwall02_mp4.mov)

please pay attention only to the motion of the spheres as a whole. it is a dirty hack, sure, but i wonder how this looks with blobmaker. mr. blobby is crashing, btw.
a setup similar to this would solve the volume problem. well, it would need lots and lots of small spheres, but i am sure some genius mind can take the idea and make something more workable out of it, he? :)

Igors
06-03-2006, 09:26 AM
Hi, Uwe
take a look at this:
Schwall02_mp4.mov (http://www.orangefx.de/rodeo/schwall02_mp4.mov)

please pay attention only to the motion of the spheres as a whole. it is a dirty hack, sure, but i wonder how this looks with blobmaker. mr. blobby is crashing,Impressive movie! BTW: we heard iphysically a jet's behavior is very similar to rigid body. But liquid needs more "basic spheres/units" (not too much but we cannot hope for something rational with 100 blobs only). Of course it's possible to replace each sphere with set of blobs (how about to use WM to check this?) but it would be as "march of separate water parts" :) Water needs a particle system, IMO that's unavoidable

bronco
06-03-2006, 10:00 AM
right, water needs particles, but the particles need some form of self-collision so they keep their volume and affect each others movement. imho, thats the main reason particles systems perform so poor (or hard to handle/setup) right now.

rodeo is obviously not the right answere to this in its current state, but it is leading in an interesting direction.
my idea would be a specialized rigid body solver that is optimized for "virtual" spheres (no need for polygons, so it can handle way more of them) together with a blob generator that is
capable of dealing with more than a few hundred particles (maybe some form of adaptive meshing).
thinking of it: the rigid body solver could be adaptive, too. if one particle is surrounded by other particles, they all act as one (keeping the volume). more to the edges they break into pieces until a user-definable threshold is reached (again keeping the volume). the blob generator somehow knows about the volume of each particle, so small blobs are possible until they again reach a user-definable threshold, after that only particles are rendered as spray.
sounds good?
i am sure there are more things to be considered (like gravity and all that stuff), but i think a system with this attributes would make very nice fountains (and other, more dramatic, things).

Igors
06-03-2006, 12:29 PM
my idea would be a specialized rigid body solver that is optimized for "virtual" spheres (no need for polygons, so it can handle way more of them) together with a blob generator that is capable of dealing with more than a few hundred particles (maybe some form of adaptive meshing).
thinking of it: the rigid body solver could be adaptive, too. if one particle is surrounded by other particles, they all act as one (keeping the volume). more to the edges they break into pieces until a user-definable threshold is reached (again keeping the volume). the blob generator somehow knows about the volume of each particle, so small blobs are possible until they again reach a user-definable threshold, after that only particles are rendered as spray.
sounds good?
i am sure there are more things to be considered (like gravity and all that stuff), but i think a system with this attributes would make very nice fountains (and other, more dramatic, things).Uwe, a sentences like "a specialized rigid body solver" sound really awful :) cause they are associated with something "big, solid and needs months of work". We think in real practice the things are much simpler. Look at water splashes for example. Each dropped blob generates a circular wave, these waves should interacts with "secondary" (reflected) blobs. Complex task? Well, not "a piece of cake", but IMO absolute realistic and interested for us. However, the problem is that before starting we must to write a big part of particle system: emission, numerous particles options etc. etc. And all becomes to be hard, big and heavy :sad:

fahl5
06-03-2006, 03:26 PM
1) by the way, everyone is talking about rf, which undenieable has its strength for fluids and dynamics, but has anyone tested the Blender 2.4 fluids and the possibility to get them into Eias, as far as I know the comunitys of most of major apps, already tried or figured out to make plugs to use those opensource fluids in their own Program.

2) Hi Uwe, for me as an softwaremaking ignorant all you think about the potential of rodeo sounds quite promissing to me as the the rodeo-demos-movies do.

rodeo is obviously not the right answere to this in its current state, but it is leading in an interesting direction.
....i am sure there are more things to be considered (like gravity and all that stuff), but i think a system with this attributes would make very nice fountains (and other, more dramatic, things).

Thinking on the announced RF4 here is another (as it seems to me desperate) need for Eias, RF4 would cover if ever we could use it for more complex-simulations:

Since we have Fiber-Forge which has alot for a real nice animated 3d-Hairs, until now those Hairs don't have any real dynamics and collission detection.

Might this be one of the "other, more dramatic, things" rodeo will do one time?
Steffen

Igors
06-03-2006, 05:23 PM
Since we have Fiber-Forge which has alot for a real nice animated 3d-Hairs, until now those Hairs don't have any real dynamics and collission detection.We are not familiar with Fiber Forge to discuss what it can/cannot do. Our attempt in this area was Trooper. From our experience we can say: we would be happy to have accurate and fast hairs/fur WITHOUT any real dynamics and collision detection. Unfortunately it's IMO impossible with phong render.

Same for water: all these cool liquid physics look too big, and, IMO, too far away from EI. Our proposition was to have a normal simple fountain first.

bronco
06-06-2006, 08:12 AM
hi igors,

please take a look here:

Thread at ramajc Forum (http://www.ramjac.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=42)

in theory, is something like this possible from your point of view?

Igors
06-06-2006, 09:27 AM
Hi, Uwe
please take a look here:

Thread at ramajc Forum (http://www.ramjac.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=42)

in theory, is something like this possible from your point of view?We are familiar with XP-server and the first XP-client plug-in (ParametricSurface) is already on our surgery table
particle system emits some particles (maybe even some more, hehe).
XP can read the position and velocity values and pass it on to rodeo.
rodeo turns them into virtual spheres and does its magic.
the final output would be particles for use with some blob generator(it's a quote from other forum)
We cannot see how XP and Rodeo can help here. Inside particle system it's only 1-2 hours of work to create an external block of data in format we described in this thread. But in other ways it's practically inaccesible: how to "read velocity"? How to know which point is which at previous frame? Creating "another one particle system" and duplicating numerous particle options is a thing we try to avoid (without luck though :) )

bronco
06-06-2006, 09:46 AM
Hi, UweWe are familiar with XP-server and the first XP-client plug-in (ParametricSurface) is already on our surgery table uhh, great! :)

We cannot see how XP and Rodeo can help here. Inside particle system it's only 1-2 hours of work to create an external block of data in format we described in this thread. But in other ways it's practically inaccesible: how to "read velocity"? How to know which point is which at previous frame? Creating "another one particle system" and duplicating numerous particle options is a thing we try to avoid (without luck though :) )

doesn't the "data block" contain some form of ID for each particle? isn't the velocity the difference between the current frame the one before?

in my little mind game the particle system would only supply the initial steps needed (particle distibution, speed and direction). this would be feed into rodeo (via XP-server). rodeo turns the particles (internal) into spheres and does the dynamics and collisions.
nice and easy (for the user :) )

i am just thinking how to get the best of both worlds together without the need to build all into one plugin (a paradigma that you planted into my mind) :)
XP-server just seemed to fit into this picture.

and i like the idea of more 3rd party developers working together with their individual strengths.

edit: of course all of this would require a joined effort of you and jens/patrick.

Igors
06-06-2006, 01:00 PM
doesn't the "data block" contain some form of ID for each particle? isn't the velocity the difference between the current frame the one before?That's a very rough velocity estimation :)
in my little mind game the particle system would only supply the initial steps needed (particle distibution, speed and direction). this would be feed into rodeo (via XP-server). rodeo turns the particles (internal) into spheres and does the dynamics and collisions. nice and easy (for the user :) )Hmm.... we've serious doubts that manipulations with thousands of spheres is sooo easy for user :) And (even more important) rigid body dynamics cannot help for liquids dynamics, they are very "different dynamics".

i am just thinking how to get the best of both worlds together without the need to build all into one plugin (a paradigma that you planted into my mind) :)
XP-server just seemed to fit into this picture.EI plug-in can pass data to other plug-ins/shaders, so there is no any necessary to use much more complex XP-server mechanism. But overview you are on right way, sure :)

BTW: we notice "a strange effect of Rodeo" - looks like anything should come WITH collision detection, physical engines etc. etc. Otherwise - it's too little and doesn't deserve our attention (we think only globally). But do you really need such cool physics? Your movie (last posted here) is very impressive, but let's imagine a water stream instead of balls. Uwe, do you plan a "Titanic-2 film"? :) If so, you need a specialized tool with price like $10K as minimum (don't forget us if it happens). But how about more modest, more practical, utilitarian water effects? And (also important) with cheap price. Who said that "collision detection" is the center of this universe? A year ago we observed carefully all movies that EI artists done with RF. It's very noticable: all is going perfectly and amazed in closed volume, like water/juice fills a glass/cap. But in "architecture area" (fountains, waterfalls etc.) successes are much more modest. Thus we aren't sure RF should be an etalon to copy.

bronco
06-06-2006, 01:42 PM
That's a very rough velocity estimation :)
what should i say? me = math genious! ;)

Hmm.... we've serious doubts that manipulations with thousands of spheres is sooo easy for user :) And (even more important) rigid body dynamics cannot help for liquids dynamics, they are very "different dynamics".
in my imagination this should be exactly as easy as every particle generator with thousands of particles.
and to be honest, i don't know the differences between rigid and liquid dynamics and i don't really care. for me it has to look and feel right.

the only reason i brought this idea up here, was this little rodeo test movie i showed you. the movement was close enough to liquid to get me thinking how this could get better and, first of all, better managable.

BTW: we notice "a strange effect of Rodeo" - looks like anything should come WITH collision detection, physical engines etc. etc. Otherwise - it's too little and doesn't deserve our attention (we think only globally). But do you really need such cool physics? Your movie (last posted here) is very impressive, but let's imagine a water stream instead of balls. Uwe, do you plan a "Titanic-2 film"? :) If so, you need a specialized tool with price like $10K as minimum (don't forget us if it happens). But how about more modest, more practical, utilitarian water effects? And (also important) with cheap price. Who said that "collision detection" is the center of this universe? A year ago we observed carefully all movies that EI artists done with RF. It's very noticable: all is going perfectly and amazed in closed volume, like water/juice fills a glass/cap. But in "architecture area" (fountains, waterfalls etc.) successes are much more modest. Thus we aren't sure RF should be an etalon to copy.

well, it's like christmas: you play with the new toy and think of ways to use it until it breaks and the next big toy comes around :)
and no, it's not the centre of the universe, but it is fun and interesting enough to keep me thinking in what direction this could be used, besides the obvious.
throw something shiny in my direction and i will bite :)

there was a time when 3d was dominated by huge, expensive SGI maschines. then came the desktop with flexible and cheap software. you know the rest of the story.
igors, i don't want you to be cheap, but very flexible :)

and again, this is just an idea we are discussing, nothing more.

Igors
06-06-2006, 02:59 PM
Hi, Uwethe only reason i brought this idea up here, was this little rodeo test movie i showed you. the movement was close enough to liquid to get me thinking how this could get better and, first of all, better managable.

well, it's like christmas: you play with the new toy and think of ways to use it until it breaks and the next big toy comes around :)When we see your movie, the first our mind was: smoke explosion! The balls' behavior is quite "exponential" (as explosion needs). Also: explosion (unlike water) doesn't require tons of blobs, often several tenth (or less yet) are absolute enough. And again: 90% are really done (like Brian wrote), but, alas, we've no solutions for rest 10% :sad: The "smoke blobs" should ultimately come together, joined, a "separate blob" momentary ruins all composition. And that is what rigid body dynamics wont do.
So, yes, the movie is interested, but.. the distance to final goal is same long :)

halfworld
06-06-2006, 03:20 PM
Blair/ Igors,

How about that data packet then?? :)
Ian

PS. Uwe, what you are describing sounds very much like 'dumb water' which looks fine for very simple stuff (not too detailed/ distance shots). It's much quicker to calculate this kind of fluid in RF (sorry to bring up RF again ;) i'll do a couple of simple sims tonight to show the difference between what you're proposing and 'fluid dynamics'.

MagicEgger
06-28-2006, 11:47 PM
Hey Guys,

Ok, first, let look the best fluid simulator these days:
http://www.flowlines.info/gallery01.html

second,
I did this simulation to one of my Beerís TV adv. with RealFlow, for us.. poor FX artists which dont have acess to simulators like Flowline... RealFLow is really good... waiting realflow 4.

http://homepage.mac.com/tegger/iMovieTheater7.html

In the Other side, I agree with Igors when they are trying to add the basic water simulation to basic effects in EIAS, but like in one of the answers here.. if Igorís water plug-in could work in layers with other plug-ins.. we could make our simulations more complex.
The Uwe animation in a artistic point of view using Rodeo is close to a splash of water in a hall, but I agree with Igors, the simulation need more elements to be a realistic fluid simulation.
We (EIAS users) need complex fluid simulations, SURE, Why? in my case.. any new TV adv today want the best of FX saw in feature films.. TV adv is a mirror of Films.
I almost get a complex job 2 months ago which I wanted to help Blair in improving his Free RealFLow Plug-in with no luck.. the client denied the TV adv. idea, but I still waiting the chance to improve it, adding a option to RF plug-in import to EIAS the Individual Particle Data, so, then you could link a Blob plug-in or a Ubershape Sphere, making a wave of sand or in my case a wave of a Clean Product.

Thankssss
Tomas

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