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hamed
01-06-2003, 04:50 AM
Hi All,

I want to purchase this new machine for my 3D.
Application : LW or MAX

CPU: AMD Athlon XP 2100+
Mainboard: ASUS A7N266-E
Graphic Card: ATI Radeon 9500 Pro
256 MB of DDR RAM
HDD: 60
----------------------------------------
Would like to have your opinion/suggestion ABOUT above PC?
bandwidth ? Performance also your seggestion about heatsink and FAN and
mainboard?


Thanks for your time.

jsh3d
01-06-2003, 05:14 AM
I'd go with a Asus a7n8x with a lot then then 256mb of pc2700 ram :). I've just bought a comp like this, and this is what I got :).

-Jsh3d

GregHess
01-06-2003, 01:40 PM
I'd second the nforce2 Asus board.

For heatsinks you'll want a thermalright product, either a Thermalright AX7, SK7, or SLK800. Buy an mid rpm 80mm fan to go along with them (these heatsinks don't come with fans).

512 megs of ram is usually recommended as a minimum starting level for doing 3d work. 256 gets eaten up really fast if your running XP.

MadMax
01-06-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
I'd second the nforce2 Asus board.



Make that a 3rd for the nForce2 A7N8X board. Dynamite board. Mine runs almost 24/7.

Oh I would skip the ATI card though. their OpenGL support in 3D apps is pathetic.

GeForce4 Ti4600 VIVO is a perfect match for this system.

GregHess
01-06-2003, 07:43 PM
Speaking of the nforce2 board. Just ordered one for the university. I guess I'll get to see how it runs those dna tests when it arrives later this week from newegg. 125 USD. Awesome price.

(I just got the vanilla version)

MadMax
01-06-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
Speaking of the nforce2 board. Just ordered one for the university. I guess I'll get to see how it runs those dna tests when it arrives later this week from newegg. 125 USD. Awesome price.

(I just got the vanilla version)

Wuss. :)

I had to have the Deluxe. The extras were worth it.

hamed
01-07-2003, 01:24 AM
How about KT333 Chip in Asus A7V333 that included shutoff option?

elvis
01-07-2003, 01:53 AM
i'm a big fan of via chipsets (the ones that work at least). the kt333 isn't a bad one, but it won't guarantee support for upcoming 333FSB athlon chips (unlike the name suggests). keep that in mind if you plan to upgrade your system i the future.

to date i know of only one motherboard with a kt333 chipset to support 333FSB athlons, and that's an MSI motherboard. the kt400 will support 333FSB chips, from what i understand. the nforce2 will most definitely support all 333FSB athlon chips.

one more comment: i notice you've chosen a radeon 9500 pro. these are great cards no doubt, but ati opengl drivers are still quite young, and you may see some benefit in going with a geforce4ti card instead. nvidia opengl drivers are a little bit more mature and solid, and there's always the option of using softquadro as well.

MadMax
01-07-2003, 02:37 AM
You couldn't pay me enough to use anything VIA related.

nForce2 is the fastest and most stable platform available for the AMD processors. Considering the reasonable cost, why ask for trouble?

VIA boards are far to plagued with issues to be worth the time or effort.

elvis
01-07-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by MadMax

VIA boards are far to plagued with issues to be worth the time or effort.

there's a difference between offering alternate solutions and spamming your opinion. if you want to keep going on about via boards, it might pay to back it up with some evidence.

to date i have set up over 100 systems for close friends and personal clients all containing via chipsets, all without incident or trouble, and all performing to the satisfaction of the users (ranging from small business to high-end CAD users, digital artisits and hardcore gamers).

i even own two myself which have remained trouble-free since i purchased them 6 and 12 months ago respectively.

i'm not claiming they're any better than anything out there on the market, just that they certainly aren't as troublesome as you seem to want to convince everyone. if they were as bad as you claim, i doubt there would be any left on the market.

driver problems were an issue 24 months ago, but that's all dead and buried. nvidia had just as many headaches with the nforce boards when they debuted, only to offer fixes over the following months in their software.

perhaps you ought to start your own thread entitled "why i hate via", and just link to it each time to save bandwidth? :p

matty429
01-07-2003, 03:28 AM
Via is the devil in disguise

hamed
01-07-2003, 03:28 AM
Oh,Because I'm complete novice in hardware I really become
CONFUESD. :eek:

Please let me know the best board that I can select with AMD XP 2100+ and 512 Mb of DDR 333 or 400 and 60 Gh of HDD (7200 RPM).Please suggest me a baord that included shutoff mode.
Asus or Giga.

looking for your good news.

:beer:

matty429
01-07-2003, 03:42 AM
Id go with an N-Force board....a Ge-force card...and as mutch ram as I could get my mits on ...preferably 1 gig

I stay away from via....I tried real hard to like them I Probably had 5-10 via boards since for a while, they were the best choice for a Athlon...with the nforce 2 out with alot of the bugs hammered out from the n-force 1 ...it should prove to be the best out there for single cpu configurations.plus, thats less people involved in your computer...soo theres less compatibility issues.

If your seeking stability over speed ....look at intels stuff

My favorite Motherboards are MSI's...This is based for the most part on opinion...Asus is awesome too...I've just had better expierences with MSI

Just make sure you get the right motherboard..any other part is simple to replace...

GregHess
01-07-2003, 04:32 AM
If your seeking stability over speed ....look at intels stuff

AMD systems are as stable, if not more so then Intel ones. Intel's released two faulty chipsets in just the past few months. First the i845PE which had issues running PC2700 DDR in more then one slot, and still does when running all three slots at 333. And lately the E7205, the Single DC-DDR chipset for the P4. (This board was delayed due to slight errata in the AGP 8x).

I won't get into the 3.06 HT P4 chip...lowest throttling temp of all the P4's, and quite possibly the hottest chip currently available on the market. (Hot as in Degree's Celcius)

Saying one is more stable then the other, is like debating which animal can carry more...a donkey..or an ass.

matty429
01-07-2003, 04:49 AM
Thats chicken feed compared to all the amd bugs...even the first nforce had the same type of memory problem....not to mention the whole via kt266..then kt266-a...thats jacked up
or agp 4x
or all the power supply issues
or trying to use a geforce card on a kt 133
Sound blaster live issues....

cmo'n ...a big reason amd is remotely stable is because of all the common users going through hell for via to purchase products worthy of a beta status and bringing issues to the surface

They should call it kt266 beta...and then kt266...etc


I have 3 AMD machines Love em....

and 1 slower more stable Intel machine....Never lets me down

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing

GregHess
01-07-2003, 04:57 AM
I'm not arguing. I'm just stating facts. Your original comment made it appear that AMD systems are not as stable as Intel ones. Thats entirely false. So I returned a comment showing that Intel isn't exactly mr happy super #1 fun guy either.

Remember Via is not AMD, their just systems which support AMD cpu's. Your comment was targeted towards AMD systems in general, not just specific via chipsets.

I will slap down anyone who says that AMD is less stable then Intel, and then point out thousands of instances of entire organizations relying primarily on AMD processors to do insane amounts of workloads, all perfectly stable and with zero issues or problems.

You can't just claim that one cpu manufacter is more stable then another. Thats a giant festering load of bs.

hamed
01-07-2003, 05:14 AM
Dear Greg,

Could you please suggest me a TOP board for Athlon XP 2100+ with
512 Mb of DDR 333 or 400,preferably Asus with C.O.P mode.

GregHess
01-07-2003, 05:32 AM
http://usa.asus.com/mb/socketa/a7n8x/overview.htm

matty429
01-07-2003, 05:39 AM
Ok answer me this ....What was the first amd system you started with...we will start there....

elvis
01-07-2003, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by matty429

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing

hardly. anyone who supports a multitude of desktops will tell you the same. you are blaming a CPU on a series of chipset makers who are totally unrelated.

hamed
01-07-2003, 05:54 AM
Many thanks.
Can I use this system for min 2 years ?
Because I dont want to update my system every year.

matty429
01-07-2003, 05:57 AM
No im not....im totally blaming it on via.....you know ..intel makes chipsets also

elvis
01-07-2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by matty429
Ok answer me this ....What was the first amd system you started with...we will start there....

socket A (socket 462): amd760, sis73X and viakt133 (all for myself and various clients).

all good, solid chipsets, with no stability problems. none of them were good overclockers, but that's not the discussion. (certainly, real workstation users would never overclock a system if stability and reliability were their primary goals).

elvis
01-07-2003, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by matty429
No im not....im totally blaming it on via.....you know ..intel makes chipsets also

yes, and they also have the same stability problems early in their lifecycle, usually fixed by decent driver and software support later on. just like via, sis, etc, etc.

dvornik
01-07-2003, 06:08 AM
I've had problems with both Intel and Via, Intel was on a larger scale. My personal machines are both VIA now (one AMD and one Intel) and they are not too troublesome. Not any more than Intel and AMD chipsets at work. "Intel Application Accelerator" is a nightmare in it's own right, at least it was for me.

2 years is a long time for any system, but I guess you can do it.

matty429
01-07-2003, 06:54 AM
Do any of you guys Preaching AMD have aP3 P4/or Xeon Based machine...you don't want...

ill trade an athlon xp 1800 and a msi nforce

Or a soyo k7v dragon

or a Abit kt133 raid

dvornik
01-07-2003, 07:19 AM
If you lived in NYC I'd go for it. I have a nice 1 GHZ PIII setup (VIA though, but very stable under XP, trust me) but I would love to get an 1800+ instead. Are you really that pissed off with it? I'm not preaching AMD but I don't think it's worse than Intel.

[edit] By the way i think that cheap-ass VIA Apollo Pro 133 T Shuttle Spacewalker PIII board is one of the best and problem-free boards I've ever had. It was like $50 or something. It even has nice rounded RAM holders or whatever they are called.

MadMax
01-07-2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by elvis
there's a difference between offering alternate solutions and spamming your opinion. if you want to keep going on about via boards, it might pay to back it up with some evidence.

An opinion was asked. If you have a problem with the answer then I suggest you find somewhere else to post.


VIA-chipsets slow down PCI cards
Posted by Fish3669 on Saturday 22 December - 00:50 - Source: tecChannel

We all know Via's chipsets problems, ranging from the sound corruption bug to the file corruption bugs. Well, it so happens that tecChannel investigated the PCI implementation of the Via Southbridges and found that Via has slower PCI I/O than Intel, SiS, or ALi. So devices that use a lot of PCI bandwidth, like IDE and SCSI, will be restricted from it's maximum utilization.

Just one easy to find quote there.....
Try doing a search on Google for VIA problems. We'll see you in a couple of months.

VIA hardware compatibility with industry standard components is also a well known issue to professionals. DPS Cards like Perception, Velocity, Hollywood etc. Video Toaster, a number of SCSI cards and on and on and on.....

to date i have set up over 100 systems for close friends and personal clients all containing via chipsets, all without incident or trouble,

......long winded babble snipped......


Ah yes, the obligatory bragging and chest beating. Not very impressive when you are unaware of issues that VIA admits to.........


i'm not claiming they're any better than anything out there on the market, just that they certainly aren't as troublesome as you seem to want to convince everyone. if they were as bad as you claim, i doubt there would be any left on the market.


Yes they are. VIA's sales PLUNGED like a rock when the nForce2 boards shipped.
VIA dropepd something like 20% for the quarter.

The problems with VIA are too numerous for the scope of a simple thread on a new computer build. Many people like your "happy customers" wouldn't even know they had a defective product, blaming the horrendous slow speeds on the network, or other issues, never knowing it was a chipset bug.

I guess you are not experienced enough to understand that a bug doesn't mean that a system doesn't work. Or that it has to be obvious to still be a bug.

driver problems were an issue 24 months ago, but that's all dead and buried. nvidia had just as many headaches with the nforce boards when they debuted, only to offer fixes over the following months in their software.


Dead issue? wrong.

nVidia has just as many headaches? strike 2.

No they didn't. nVidia debuted with a far more stable, reliable and secure system right out of the gate, far fewer problems etc. than VIA, who had been making AMD boards for over 2 years already and still had trouble getting it right.

Oh, and one of the largest nForce problems was the defective USB 2.0 VIA controller chip that was used on some of the boards. It was found that you were better off disabling the VIA controller as it impacted system performace too severely.

And while they were not 100% perfect, they were leaps and bounds ahead of VIA and were compatible with ALL of the hardware that VIA couldn't run.

Strike 3.


perhaps you ought to start your own thread entitled "why i hate via", and just link to it each time to save bandwidth? :p


Maybe you should take your own advice. Or better yet, add something useful to the thread instead of flaming.

GregHess
01-07-2003, 02:52 PM
Ok answer me this ....What was the first amd system you started with...we will start there....

Abit KT7, Via KT133 chipset. Followed by an Iwill KK266, which was a KT133A chipset, followed by a KT266, KT266A, KT333, Nforce1, Sis ###, AMD 760, AMD 760MPX (I skipped the MP's). Just purchased a Nforce2 for the dna lab, so we'll see how that does probably on wednesday. (Newegg rules). I also have experience with AMD's socket 7 setup, and even the slot A Athlons.

On intel's side, I've used everything from a 286 to a Dual 2.8 Xeon.

Both the Iwill KK266, and Abit KT7 are STILL running. I actually sold them to the university before I started working there. The abit is going on...2 years now? I don't even know anymore, and its running a gigahertz tbird, with 512 megs of Mushkin PC133 2-2-2. Still a snappy fast system on win2k. It hasn't had a single crash at the university since it was installed...running 24/7.

The Iwill KK266 was upgraded to a 1900+ XP, and is probably around 6-8 months newer then the KT7. It does mainly graphical work on the 3rd floor, haven't had a single complaint, mainly compliments since it was moved to its new location.

Remember...even though certain chipsets have quirks (As MadMax pointed out...btw elvis and madmax shouldn't be allowed to talk about via or nforce2 in the same thread :)), stability usually comes down to one of the big three. Power, Ram, or cooling. If there is a flaw in any one of these three (Due to generic or piss poor parts), ANY system will be unstable.

Its a proven fact...too much heat causes instability. (Intel or AMD)
Its a proven fact...Ram errors can make using a computer miserable. (Intel or AMD)
Its a proven fact...a piss poor powersupply can reduce performance, reduce stability, and reduce longevity of components.

Do any of you guys Preaching AMD have aP3 P4/or Xeon Based machine...you don't want...
ill trade an athlon xp 1800 and a msi nforce
Or a soyo k7v dragon
or a Abit kt133 raid


I have a 2.66B Pentium IV system, a 1900+ XP system, a Dual 1900+ XP, and an arriving dual 2.8 Xeon. So no, I won't trade. :)

GregHess
01-07-2003, 02:54 PM
Ok answer me this ....What was the first amd system you started with...we will start there....

Abit KT7, Via KT133 chipset. Followed by an Iwill KK266, which was a KT133A chipset, followed by a KT266, KT266A, KT333, Nforce1, Sis ###, AMD 760, AMD 760MPX (I skipped the MP's). Just purchased a Nforce2 for the dna lab, so we'll see how that does probably on wednesday. (Newegg rules). I also have experience with AMD's socket 7 setup, and even the slot A Athlons.

On intel's side, I've used everything from a 286 to a Dual 2.8 Xeon.

Both the Iwill KK266, and Abit KT7 are STILL running. I actually sold them to the university before I started working there. The abit is going on...2 years now? I don't even know anymore, and its running a gigahertz tbird, with 512 megs of Mushkin PC133 2-2-2. Still a snappy fast system on win2k. It hasn't had a single crash at the university since it was installed...running 24/7. PSU is a sparkle 350, and cooling is a ...er...thermaltake chrome orb. (Yes I know...bad greg)

The Iwill KK266 was upgraded to a 1900+ XP, and is probably around 6-8 months newer then the KT7. It does mainly graphical work on the 3rd floor, haven't had a single complaint, mainly compliments since it was moved to its new location. Interestingly enough, its running mushkin PC133 2-2-2 in a 512 meg dimm too...hmm :). Psu is a 400 Sparkle. Cooling is a Alpha 8045, machine lapped. Temp's 36C Idle. (Ya buddy)

Remember...even though certain chipsets have quirks (As MadMax pointed out...btw elvis and madmax shouldn't be allowed to talk about via or nforce2 in the same thread :)), stability usually comes down to one of the big three. Power, Ram, or cooling. If there is a flaw in any one of these three (Due to generic or piss poor parts), ANY system will be unstable.

Its a proven fact...too much heat causes instability. (Intel or AMD)
Its a proven fact...Ram errors can make using a computer miserable. (Intel or AMD)
Its a proven fact...a piss poor powersupply can reduce performance, reduce stability, and reduce longevity of components.

Do any of you guys Preaching AMD have aP3 P4/or Xeon Based machine...you don't want...
ill trade an athlon xp 1800 and a msi nforce
Or a soyo k7v dragon
or a Abit kt133 raid


I have a 2.66B Pentium IV system, a 1900+ XP system, a Dual 1900+ XP, and an arriving dual 2.8 Xeon. So no, I won't trade. I just wish the asus was a rev 1.04, so I could drop some 2400+ MP's in there.

elvis
01-07-2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by MadMax
Ah yes, the obligatory bragging and chest beating. Not very impressive when you are unaware of issues that VIA admits to.........

The problems with VIA are too numerous for the scope of a simple thread on a new computer build. Many people like your "happy customers" wouldn't even know they had a defective product, blaming the horrendous slow speeds on the network, or other issues, never knowing it was a chipset bug.

I guess you are not experienced enough to understand that a bug doesn't mean that a system doesn't work. Or that it has to be obvious to still be a bug.

via admits to? horrendous slow speeds? bragging and chest beating? flaming? (points at "strike 1" and "go somewhere else to post" style comments).

there's an old saying: believe none of what you hear, and half of what you read. i can search the web for via problems and find just as many sites with nforce problems. the inherent problem with an open market is hardware incompatability, and it plauges everyone.

however, to sit there and write off an entire company's worth of chipsets is a little close minded.

i'm happy with the hardware i own, use and set up for other people. it has yet to fail me. i use a large variety of equipment from a group of manufacturers i trust, including intel, amd, nvidia, sis, via and many others. i have no favourite other than what meets the needs of myself and my clients the best. for some it is raw performance with no concern of cost, for others it is a cost to performance ratio. at any rate and any time i have a firm idea in my mind of what suits who and when. today it might be via, tomorrow it might be intel, the day after it might be nvidia. horses for courses.

as i've said (and it doesn't seem to impress you, so i'm not terribly sure why i'm bothering here) of the hundreds of via boards i've installed, none have had the problems you mention. certainly the older apollo chipsets weren't rearly as good as the then intel BX chipsets and the like (going back a few years now), but that was a fact that was obvious when you compared the prices of each kind of board to the performance you needed for the application. today i'd choose a via or an nforce2 over an sis or ali chipset if my client wanted raw speed on an AMD platform, but it would depend on what they wanted to pay for a board. remember also that some people buy 1000 machines at a time, and a $50 saving per machine can result in a big cost difference to your company. TCO and all that corporate bullshit talk.

anyways, this (as many threads in public forums do) has gracelessly degenerated into two human beings bickering over a topic, with no hope of resolve.

i graciously accept the fact you dislike via, and freedome of speech entitles you to go on about it as long and as hard as you like. as for me, there's not much more i can say other than a "yes" to each of your "no"s, which depresses me when i think i could be somewhere else helping someone else (which is why i joined this forum in the first place).

goodnight, and happy system building.

elvis
01-07-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
btw elvis and madmax shouldn't be allowed to talk about via or nforce2 in the same thread :)

you're not wrong there, mate. :)

*elvis runs for the hills*

hamed
01-08-2003, 03:07 AM
Ok,What is the difference between ASUS A7N8X and ASUS A7N8X Delux ? Are the same? :)

MadMax
01-08-2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by hamed
Ok,What is the difference between ASUS A7N8X and ASUS A7N8X Delux ? Are the same? :)

the Deluxe version has additional built in features like Dual lan vs. 1 lan port, Firewire etc.

hamed
01-11-2003, 12:01 PM
HI,
Yes,It seems "nForce2" is the best chip for Athlon XP.Many peopel like Greg,
suggest me ASUS A7N8X main board But I think that Leadteck K7NCR18D-PRO
is the very decent Board than A7N8X .Check It also :

http://www.leadtek.com.tw/www/Web_Leadtek/mainboard/k7ncr18dpro.asp


want to hear your opinion.

matty429
01-11-2003, 05:34 PM
MSI K7N 2L (http://www.msicomputer.com/product/detail_spec/product_detail.asp?model=K7N2-L)

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