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View Full Version : Endless Rain, Cwb (3D)


cwb
01-03-2003, 09:22 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/galleryimages/12426/Endless_Rain_large_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/galleryimages/12426/Endless_Rain_large.jpg)

hope you like it.

kaktuswasser
01-03-2003, 09:33 PM
wow :beer:

psumo
01-03-2003, 09:39 PM
very talented

Where do you work at?

JuRrAsStOiL
01-03-2003, 10:01 PM
yeah looks great and moody :thumbsup:

btw. I hope you didn't use poser, that would be lame :thumbsdow

Unknown
01-03-2003, 10:02 PM
poser models can't touch that one

terryford
01-03-2003, 10:06 PM
What The *! Somebody needs to get over to China and rub this guy out, he's making us all look bad :)

I like this one even more than the tiger for some reason...:p

MIRVISUALS
01-03-2003, 11:33 PM
What? This can't be 3d? Really awesome picture. I have some problem with the hair, it looks a bit "fuzzy" in some areas, what if it was "cleaner" in some areas? Amazing work! :)

cwb
01-03-2003, 11:45 PM
you can look big size in it

http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/wenbo_cao1.jpg

made with 3dsmax4.2


PC (K7 650 - 256 MB)

Tyvor.com
01-04-2003, 12:18 AM
that looks exactly like a luis royo painting. great job. i'd never guess that to be a 3d piece. imo, cgi that look like paintings are the best kind.

Lyr
01-04-2003, 12:50 AM
Wow, how completely un-original. Why don't you toss some credit to the creative genius behind that image. Luis Royo.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1882931513/ref=lib_rd_prev_1/002-7105601-9341601?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=1#reader-link

psumo
01-04-2003, 12:57 AM
I agree
You should have said it was a copy of luis royo

KingMob
01-04-2003, 01:02 AM
still a sick amount of talent behind the scenes there.

if you put credit in your first thread I will give a 5 star rating, but till then you get a low star from me.

cwb
01-04-2003, 01:26 AM
:> so sorry ! my friend. I forgot it.

I like luis royo painting very much, The woman body is best

nice in this world.

so I do it . finished it for my girl friend .:love:

but she was left me and go to England study.

gmask
01-04-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by cwb
:> so sorry ! my friend. I forgot it.

I like luis royo painting very much, The woman body is best

nice in this world.

so I do it . finished it for my girl friend .:love:

but she was left me and go to England study.

Can you post a wireframe? The fingers look a bit tubey for my tastes. The best thing about it is the general atmosphere it creates but it's too bad it is not an original. You should take these materials and try a new pose and still retains this mood. Like maybe her walking away from the camera but looking over her shoulder and dragging the fur behind..

cwb
01-04-2003, 01:32 AM
KingMob


Thank you for your equity, I Think I will to do best. keep up.

Vladvrz
01-04-2003, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Lyr
Wow, how completely un-original. Why don't you toss some credit to the creative genius behind that image. Luis Royo.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1882931513/ref=lib_rd_prev_1/002-7105601-9341601?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=1#reader-link

I totally agree,you know better no matter where you are from,it's a shame such a nice piece of work is now tarnished.:annoyed: :shame:

KingMob
01-04-2003, 01:55 AM
hey no problem man. I can tell enlgish isn't your first language to, anyways excellent work man!

i just voted for a 5 on it, but i dont know if it will work. But know in your heart I really like it.

CGmonkey
01-04-2003, 02:01 AM
I'm truely amazed by your work, you are awesome! :bowdown:

D. Phoenix
01-04-2003, 02:07 AM
Well modeled and executed image. Looks great.
I too would like to see the wireframe.

Indeed, with a small change, this could easily be made to be an original; simply render at a different angle and different lighting or environment.




-D. Phoenix
www.Phoenix-Archetypes.Com

tvtuna
01-04-2003, 01:53 PM
Think she's more attractive than the Luis one, plumper
cheeks, prettier face, moodier atmosphere. There's
obviously a lot of post work on this, but a wireframe
and different angled shot would be nice.

The middle bone of each finger appears to be too long
and, as said earlier, tubular.

Anyway, Hi CWB :wavey:

Wireframe?
Another Angle?

Chappo
01-04-2003, 02:56 PM
:eek: W@W - NICE A$$ !! :D :applause:

XerC
01-04-2003, 03:14 PM
Apart from the fingers it's perfect!:bowdown:
Great job! Makes me feel bad...:drool:

Greetings,
XerC

forget-me-not
01-04-2003, 04:54 PM
his wireframe like this :

http://www.chinadv.com/bbs/photo/2001127332344323.JPG

Mahlon
01-04-2003, 06:00 PM
Great work! Reminds me less of royo and more of a Mongolian Stevie Nicks. :applause:


Mahlon

HapZungLam
01-04-2003, 06:18 PM
Its done by MAX?!??!?! :bowdown: :bowdown:

my lord

urgaffel
01-04-2003, 06:55 PM
No, it's done by cwb ;)

Ckerr812
01-04-2003, 06:58 PM
wow! this is what makes this forum so great. Amazing artists come out of the wood work. Thanks for sharing cwb...awsome stuff.

KingMob
01-04-2003, 07:11 PM
not JUST max, but Max 4....hehe

Seriously top bar work. looks like I got a new idol in 3d.

I Really lover the arm band thing.

How long did this take from completion? the title leads me to beleive it took a year is that correct?

congrats man, nice work.

j00st81
01-04-2003, 08:17 PM
I think the fingers could use a little bit of extra work, besides that, it's perfect :thumbsup:

proton
01-04-2003, 08:37 PM
Great work....where can we see more of your work!

Teyon
01-04-2003, 08:55 PM
I've seen this before. Loved it then, love it now. Great work.

dzogchen
01-04-2003, 09:12 PM
Truely great work. I would not consider this a copy of Luis Royo's work. Not at all! Just inspire by his work. :thumbsup:

gmask
01-04-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by dzogchen
Truely great work. I would not consider this a copy of Luis Royo's work. Not at all! Just inspire by his work. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately if there was reason for this artist to be sued over this image he would most likely lose. This kind of thing has been tried in court cases and usually the artist does not win but unless the artist in question has made any serious money from this then it won't come to that.

I'm citing the case of Jeff Coons reproducing a post card of puppies as a sculpture. The photographer sued him and won as he used it without permission and even though he was working in a different medium this was not seen as being an original creation and their were no evidence to assign fair usage.

Entangle
01-04-2003, 09:31 PM
wow thats like photoreal.

HieSpike
01-04-2003, 09:49 PM
Very nice work,
Regardless of the fact that it's a Luis Royo mock up...Luis doesn't do 3D. Also, I don't see what the fuss is...sure he should have stated that to begin with, but other than that...it seems that most of the stuff on here that gets the best ratings are nock off of other stuff anyway...Orcs, Dragons, Gulloms....so..anyway,
GREAT JOB....now lets see more beautiful girls!!!!


peace,
Kane
:buttrock:

gmask
01-04-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by HieSpike
...it seems that most of the stuff on here that gets the best ratings are nock off of other stuff anyway...Orcs, Dragons, Gulloms....so..anyway,



You make a good point but when judging somebody's creative abilites originality counts as much if not maybe more than technical prowess.. IMO

It really took it a few notches down for me when I saw that it was a knock off.

Plus if you are developing your reel to say work at ILM they will nto be impressed if your reel mainly consists of Tie fighters and R2D2. There are so many models of those guys floating around how can they be sure you made it?

As others have said it woul dhave been really easy to mak ehtis a different composition but considering he made this fo rhis GF it does not matter but it would have been easier if he had just sent her printout out of the original. What the love lorne will do.

The Magic Pen
01-04-2003, 10:12 PM
Wow nice 3D work !! :buttrock:

tvtuna
01-04-2003, 10:30 PM
um.. it's a painting thats been recreated and realised in CG
(and bettered), give over a bit... it's getting tiresome.

tvtuna
01-04-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by The Magic Pen
Wow nice 3D work !! :buttrock:

That wasn't aimed at you Magic Pen.

gmask
01-04-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by tvtuna
um.. it's a painting thats been recreated and realised in CG
(and bettered), give over a bit... it's getting tiresome.

IMO the original painting is better :applause:

tvtuna
01-04-2003, 10:40 PM
yeh I should have said IMO also :hmm:

flamedevil
01-04-2003, 10:48 PM
Another AWESOME work :surprised

Man what you do is fantastic, i hope we'll see more of your works on the board.

Congratulation :airguitar

Lyr
01-04-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by tvtuna
um.. it's a painting thats been recreated and realised in CG
(and bettered), give over a bit... it's getting tiresome.

Did you look at the painting? aside from the obvious technical defeciencies of the copy can you not see the delicate balance of tension and sensitivity in the original composition that the copy lacks? Do you see that there very well may be blood mixed with sweat? It's alot more than the angle and the pose that make cwb's work a copy, it's the intent. The fact that he did not credit Royo, and probably wouldn't have unless someone called him on it corrupts that intent. Add to it that he chose to copy the cover image of prohibited 1 makes it all the more infuriating. Prohibited contains many of Royo's most personal and revealing works (he reveals things about himself that few others would dare to even face themselves in the privacy of their own thoughts). Choosing to take the cover image of so personal of a creative work and present it as your own is appalling.

If he would have been honest about the creation of his copy from the very start I would be giving him a thumbs up as well. I must add that sticking this image on the front page seems a little dubious to me.

gmask
01-04-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Lyr
I must add that sticking this image on the front page seems a little dubious to me.

agreed :thumbsup:

Lyr
01-04-2003, 11:21 PM
http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/ag-ap382.html Wenbo Cao, Do the right thing and credit the Original as well as posting an appology to Luis Royo.

Vic3k
01-04-2003, 11:47 PM
gmask easy up on the guy. he has done an amazing work. if he can do that he can do her in any other pose. he did this on purpose, if he did it otherwise ppl would still be wowing. originality sure counts but if you composed tubes originally, they are still tubes. it doesn't show that you can actually make something technically dicent other than it being original. i don't think folks at ilm go for originality as the 1s priority, it's technical ablilities. if not they wouldn't be making all those great visuals.
give the guy a proper credit or show us the samples of originality. in today's days its very hard to make somethign original because any one person can always say, "hey that part looks like from...." and another one might say "no but that peice looks from..."

great job!!! truly awesome but i do admit that fingers look abit odd

Ckerr812
01-04-2003, 11:54 PM
With the way he modeled, textured, and rendered that scene so beautiful, I think that definately over shadows were he got the inspiration from. It takes a special person to tweak a scene to perfection like that, so he used a painting, the techniques and artistic skill in 3d is still great, maybe not originality, but if he had passion enough to sit there and tweak for hours and hours to get it perfect like that, then he has my respect.

It's not like he is selling it or putting in on display at the NY art gallery, what's next, are you going to throw paint on it to ruin it?

Still I think it's great work if he made it from scratch, but I do agree, it is very bad etiquette not to give credit to the original artist....I totally see your point, but I don't think it should really over shadow such great modeling, texturing and rendering.

I know I would want to see more of this guys work in the future when he starts to make his own art work, the techniques are there, he just has to work on originality and Artist etiquette.

tvtuna
01-05-2003, 12:01 AM
sorry to that dude a few posts back, guess i'm looking at it as an achievement in CG rather than a work of art, which is unfortunately how I look at all CG pics, and, to me, I also find it more visually appealing. :shrug:

coccosoids
01-05-2003, 12:09 AM
i have some questions: was it modeled in a standard pose & ups.. 'posed' like that after being rigged ? & can you post a low cage wireframe of her ? & finally was it airbrushed or altered in any other way with in a 2d editing program ? thx

nickpappas
01-05-2003, 12:22 AM
geeze you people are being way too hard on this guy!

Luis Royo didn't just throw his paintings together, he has his own "influences" as well. Royo's good but he's not the almighty pioneer that you guys are making him out to be. There was art before Royo. So what if this CG image was inspired by a painting.
You saw the wire-frame! This an amazing 3d model....done with Max 4.2 no less! Great work man!

-nick

AJE
01-05-2003, 12:27 AM
I want to see more renders from other angles...

The first image shows the whole, I want to see the different pieces that make the whole...


And I definitely agree with earlier post, it kinda does look like Mongolian Stevie Nicks... not that that's a bad thing at all.

HieSpike
01-05-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Vic3k
in today's days its very hard to make somethign original because any one person can always say, "hey that part looks like from...." and another one might say "no but that peice looks from..."



I don't think that at all. Those who are doing original work today know that their work is original. Sure there might be other works that resemble them (since it's all animation anyway), but original pieces stand out. However, if you decide to make an animated piece called "Toy Adventures" starying Spaz Lightsaber and Wood-E, we're not going to be fooled.

So IMO...copying is o.k. as long you give credit and its to build skills, otherwise LET"S ALL BE ORIGINAL.


peace,
Kane

Vladvrz
01-05-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Lyr
Did you look at the painting? aside from the obvious technical defeciencies of the copy can you not see the delicate balance of tension and sensitivity in the original composition that the copy lacks? Do you see that there very well may be blood mixed with sweat? It's alot more than the angle and the pose that make cwb's work a copy, it's the intent. The fact that he did not credit Royo, and probably wouldn't have unless someone called him on it corrupts that intent. Add to it that he chose to copy the cover image of prohibited 1 makes it all the more infuriating. Prohibited contains many of Royo's most personal and revealing works (he reveals things about himself that few others would dare to even face themselves in the privacy of their own thoughts). Choosing to take the cover image of so personal of a creative work and present it as your own is appalling.


I totally agree. Very good talent,but no originality,the whole thing is off due to that.I understand influences,but not outright duplication. And without even mentioning the artist he was duplicating. That's so un-fair. If someone had not mentioned this,he would have pawned it off as his own original work. That's unfair,100%.
Create your own style with it's influences from others,that's understandible,but not blatant duplication. This artist has talent,but I am soured by the attempt of duplication without so much as a mention to the great original artist and his work.:annoyed: :hmm: :rolleyes:

[DTZ]
01-05-2003, 12:50 AM
REALLY nice work there cwb! :) I remember seeing this a while ago on 3DArtists... loved it then, still love it now.

You mentioned it was done in max4.2, what was used for the fur/hair? Shag-fur/hair?

Keep up the good work!

[DTZ]

Cogliostros
01-05-2003, 12:51 AM
We are the sub total of our influences...

One could even go so far as to artistically interpret that fact that in Wenbo Cao's "Endless Rain" the women not gripping the fur garment, as in Royo's the women has one hand visible clutching the garment... He has depicted the women releasing the garment in essence releaseing himself from an out right dub of Royo's work.

:drool:

hahah, ok, its obvious he is emulating Royo's work in 3D, and we all should know better then to not credit the original artist in such an obvious situation. Not giving credit cheats viewers who aren't familar with Royo's work such as me, and is highly frowned upon by viewers who are familiar.

Sometimes people honestly don't realize and know any better, but in this case after working on it for the last year, I highly doubt that somewhere along the creative line it wasnt brought up that he must credit Royo...

Many are very right that if he were to choose a different camera angle, mood, and expression it would be a work of his own directly inspired by Royo's work instead of a 3D dub.
(which would usually be done at first as a test, but never exposed as your own finished work)

Kudos for the 3D work though, it looks good.

gmask
01-05-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Vic3k
gmask easy up on the guy. he has done an amazing work.

To be honest I'm still not convinvced that the model itself is not from Poser but the posted wireframe is really hard to read so I won't beg the issue. But I have allways found the hands in Poser modles to be weak and that apears to be the biggest flaw in this model. I know what those wireframes look like when they are not obscured and the the face looks like one of their models. oops I'm begging the issue again.


I still find it irritating that the work was not credited and it is clear that he is posting this image elsewhere as well without doing so.


It would be interesting to see anything else done by this same artist as based on what I know about this image I do find it hard to evaluate the artist and I really do not see it as technically all that amazing. Get Poser model, assign fur to surface, sample color values from original piece of art and hit render. I simplify.. this you will find me annoying .. I apologize ;-)

Moral of the story is DO NOT COPY artwork and not give the artists credit even if this is for practice!

coccosoids
01-05-2003, 01:05 AM
nickpappas : that could very well be an imported model (like some one has already mentioned i think) from... whereever.
i agree on inspiration, tiny amounts of influence but i totally disagree on copying... i don't think i have to elaborate that into pages long posts...
i would seriously consider attaching the original artwork if the 3d version would be posted in portfolio or anything similar...

Vladvrz
01-05-2003, 01:08 AM
I agree with Gmask. As I too have mentioned above,duplication is fine if practicing your skills,and if you give the proper credit to the person you are copying from.
That does look like a Poser model. Now that Gmask has planted this seed it really makes me wonder. The real problem with this model is the hands,and Poser is horrible when it comes to hands in my opinion.
Let us see some real "CLOSE UP WIRES" clearly,then at least that subject can be addressed.
And give the real artist credit already,here and everywhere else you have posted this.
:rolleyes::shrug:

LucentDreams
01-05-2003, 01:32 AM
whats this guy on trial for. He should have given credit, apologised that he didn't whether or not he would have corrected himself is complete heresay.

As for whether or not the model is a poser model doesn't really matter, if it is then i wouldn't give him praise for being a great modeler, if it isn't then I would give hime praise as a modeler, since I'm not sure myself it doesn't matter to me.

Question I wonder is if he made her hair blon used a dark blue bg and rendered it from a downward angle more to the front would you have cared as much?

I give the artist praise for the simple fat that he did such a nice job of replicating the image, who cares if he used a poser model to do it,maybe his skills lie in lighting and rendering, maybe in texturing. the thing is he saw the image decided to recreate it in 3D and did a pretty good job of it. Maybe he doesn't deserve the worship some people have given him as is often giving to anyone on cgtalk, but give him some praise where its due, he's got some skill to do such a great job.

Or are you going to accuse Bay Raiit and the other Artists at Weta along with peter Jackson and the bunch of knocking off gollum's design from Ralph Bakshi's horrible animated film. We know thats not the case, but with your behaviour thats how you should be treating it.

Lighten up its been pointed out he didn't give credit, he admist and apologized for it leave it be go somewhere and quite hassling the guy

ACFred
01-05-2003, 01:34 AM
It seems people are a little touchy. The guy's guilty until he proves his innocence, huh? While it would be fine to do a little policing if this were an obvious fraud or infringement upon someone else's copyright, this falls into a VERY gray area and doesn't deserve the few witch-hunt attacks it's received.

You guys make sure you dot your own i's and cross your own t's. I realize that we have to be wary of copyright infringement, but why don't you just ask the guy nicely for a wireframe instead of demand it as proof that he's not a liar, cheat and con?

The guy was nice enough to share some excellent work, whether it was "inspired" by another artist or not. The fact that he didn't write a complete bibliography of his sources isn't enough to warrant the attack -- and it is an attack, whether you realize it or not.


That's it.

Alec

lildragon
01-05-2003, 01:37 AM
Incredible job you did here, to me it's *almost* a flawless piece as far as the subject matter goes, the only thing that bothers me is the right hand, the deformations look a bit *crumpled* for a better choice of words, but the overall piece is very well deserving.

You have received the CGtalk choice award . Please feel free to display this image anywhere you like! Congrats again.

upon receiving this award, it guarantees you a spot in the cgtalk gallery hall of fame - when it becomes available

http://www.cgtalk.com/plug_award/award_jan_2003_2.jpg

P.S. if you need a different background, please send me a PM with the RGB values.

salud

Jenner
01-05-2003, 01:42 AM
:drool: :drool: Whos that girl?.. Shes ur girlfriend?.. If not, THEN GIVE ME HER NUMBER!!! :bounce:

man, seriously that is awesome man!

gmask
01-05-2003, 01:44 AM
>>>Or are you going to accuse Bay Raiit and the other Artists at Weta along with peter Jackson and the bunch of knocking off gollum's design from Ralph Bakshi's horrible animated film.


Actually I thought they successfully took the Gollum character in a new direction and less reptilian an dnot a knock off of the Animted version...check out the CineFex article they talk about this alot in there.

>>I give the artist praise for the simple fat that he did such a nice job of replicating the image

Compare the two images side by side.. the original emotes a level of pain and anguish and those important details if the goal was to reproduce were left out.. details such as the piercings and the sweat. the skin has no tonality.. look the original's knuckles.. they ar etense.. the hands themselves say pain. In this one the hair looks like a bad wig.

I just didn't realise that copying works of art could be given such high praise but maybe all people care about is technical demostrations and therefore end justifies the means...

most importnatly this would all be moot if the work had been titled "ode to Royo".

HieSpike
01-05-2003, 01:44 AM
You can get an award for copying someones work and not crediting them? Wow.


Kane
:shame:

lildragon
01-05-2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by HieSpike
You can get an award for copying someones work and not crediting them? Wow.


Kane
:shame:

Say what now? Am I missing something? :surprised

gmask
01-05-2003, 01:53 AM
>>>While it would be fine to do a little policing if this were an obvious fraud or infringement upon someone else's copyright, this falls into a VERY gray area

I think this is a valid issue for discussion and this image has brought the issue to the foreground.

Here is a very relevant article on art , copyrights and fair use.

http://culturalpolicy.uchicago.edu/conf1999/landes.html

Personally I find it offensive that the author of this image did not and has not given credit to Royo. It may have been out of naiveness on his part which is very likely and there really is no harm done but it should be clear that if you want to copy something give proper credit.

In regards to this image.. I doubt that it will effect Royo's sale of his book but he may not appreciate it if this guy starts selling posters of it on Razzle or for that matter copyrighting as he has on Raph.

I cannot speak for Royo but I wonder how any of you would feel if you saw a knock off of your work being posted around the net without credit? They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery but only if those who are impressed know who is being flattered.

gmask
01-05-2003, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by lildragon
Say what now? Am I missing something? :surprised

Lil, did you read the thread?

lildragon
01-05-2003, 01:57 AM
No actually read the first page and skimmed thru it, but I'm reading it now.

salud

Ckerr812
01-05-2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by gmask
[B
Personally I find it offensive that the author of this image did not and has not given credit to Royo. It may have been out of naiveness on his part which is very likely and there really is no harm done but it should be clear that if you want to copy something give proper credit.

[/B]

I totally agree, but he is rather young, so I would guess that it is out of being niave rather then trying to take credit for it. Most young artist start out by copying other styles to make there own. (but that is why thier not professionals) I think your just being a little hard on him. *just me 2 cents* :)

ps.- he did say he copied it from Royo on the first page. I think the problem is he can't speak english to well.

lildragon
01-05-2003, 02:06 AM
hmm ACFred made a good point on the bottom of page 4, I mean it's heavily influenced yes and he should've gave credit where it's due, but you can't deny it's a great piece of work.. hmm I'm also thinking about the highend judges over at Raph's, those gents aren't so keen on placing any art on the site, matter of fact they're extremely tough and picky... I'll look into this further, but if you all are getting hot and bothered over the fact he didn't credit Luis Royo, let's wait and see what he has to say in his defence. Rest your pitchforks and torches down for a bit, let's hear him out first yah?

salud

HieSpike
01-05-2003, 02:09 AM
I agree that he did a great job....and Raph is a hard site to get on. Oh well......cest la vie.

Just one thing....You guys consider 24 to be young?


peace,
Kane
:)

[DTZ]
01-05-2003, 02:35 AM
Whoa! this has really kicked off a bit!

Anyway, from the first page of this thread..

Originally posted by cwb
:> so sorry ! my friend. I forgot it.

I like luis royo painting very much, The woman body is best

nice in this world.

so I do it . finished it for my girl friend .:love:

but she was left me and go to England study.

..now maybe I'm reading/interpreting this differently to everyone else, but I'd say he's said here that he likes the Luis Royo painting and 'so I do it'.


:shrug:

Anyway, still love it, :p

[DTZ]

LucentDreams
01-05-2003, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by [DTZ]
Whoa! this has really kicked off a bit!

Anyway, from the first page of this thread..



..now maybe I'm reading/interpreting this differently to everyone else, but I'd say he's said here that he likes the Luis Royo painting and 'so I do it'.


:shrug:

Anyway, still love it, :p

[DTZ]

Not sure how your reading it but seeing as how this persons english isn't 100% I take it to mean he was inspired by the image and tried to recreate it. And a terrific job he did

cgjie
01-05-2003, 03:04 AM
where is cwb?

Rudity
01-05-2003, 03:09 AM
cwb your work kicks ass.
I like your tiger better though.


To the people who are attacking cwb for not crediting the artist who inspired him I think you should ease off a bit.
He's from china and the copyright laws there are almost none existant. (or so I have heard, correct me if im wrong) Now this isn't an excuse for him, but I think I'm bringing another point into this issue that should be looked into.

I feel im going to get flamed for this.


:)

Later
Rudity

eliseu gouveia
01-05-2003, 03:11 AM
Thatīs rather good! :)

201
01-05-2003, 03:14 AM
Looking at his posts, I think he can't speak/understand english well. This might be the reason why he did not give credit to the original artist. He probably intends to but has trouble typing it up. And if China does not have copyright laws, then that's another reason why he may be a bit naieve. Anyway, I think he's got skillz and most definitely has the capability to create his own original pieces.

WarAngel
01-05-2003, 03:28 AM
very nice recreation!

slooper
01-05-2003, 04:02 AM
My statements go beyond "IMO" and border on fact. For those who feel the need to attack in order to justify or defend the self-percieved elevated positions that you have attained (or wish to attain) within the industry and this online community, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Your words are those of schoolyard bullies wanting to make sure that another student knows his place in the heirarchy. And although you may percieve yourselves as "industry professionals" your lack of tact, sensitivity, and perception drives me to prayer that I never find myself supervised by the likes of you in any company I work for.

My compliments to those who have attempted to offsest those here who are so quick to judge and scrutinize. It is no wonder that many non-Americans see us as self-righteous, condescending blow-hards. With the way CWB has been treated thus far, I would not disagree with him if he came to the same conclusion. Gmask, if anyone is owed an apology, it is CWB and the CgTalk community; an apology from you.

Sean Looper

Grgeon
01-05-2003, 04:38 AM
Well said Slooper...
cwb, great job man! Can't wait to see more :)

George

ricktu
01-05-2003, 05:03 AM
I second that... well said Slooper.

Gmask.:: did this guy come bursting in saying he did all that from scratch ? taking full credit for the design ? .... Nope he made a few bare comments in a language he's obviously not all that familiar with... okay .. so by all rights he should have stated what inspired and it was an obvious mistake for him to omit it... now does that mistake warrent your reaction ? To me you look like your trying to start a witch hunt on the guy. Making assumptions about the model and his intentions based on a couple of lines of broken english ????

Now unless you know something about him not obvious from his two posts then I honestly think you owe him an apology..

Richard.

BlueCougar
01-05-2003, 05:13 AM
I agree Slooper. Good effort on the image study. Which from what I can tell is what this is, an image study. How to do the effects and modeling that looks like....this. Now he can say he knows it and can prove it. Keep up the good work cgw.

Kenn

Stimpy
01-05-2003, 05:24 AM
some people bitch at him for copying the image and other bitch at him for not copying it closely enough...

muahhahahaa...

i dig the sensual atmosphere in the 3d version more than the tension in the 2d one.

gigatron
01-05-2003, 05:32 AM
I remember seeing that a long time ago somewhere, its quite good ya

Soeren Nielsen
01-05-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by cgjie
where is cwb?

He probably didnt want to post in here anymore, cause instead of focusing on the art achievement some in here keep babbling about giving credit to this and that.. leave it be, you wont achieve anything by this, clearly he allready excused that he didnt credit the painting, and he was sorry.

As to what I think myself, I think it is a great piece of art, whether copied or not. Stop beeing so jealous about the mans work, he is obviously very good at what he does, and doest deserve to have this thread ruined by envious people.

Rant over..

gmask
01-05-2003, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by ricktu
To me you look like your trying to start a witch hunt on the guy. Making assumptions about the model and his intentions based on a couple of lines of broken english ????


Oh yeah I got the torch in hand and the angry mob to follow me.. Spare me the drama. jeez you guys would fawn over any image that has a glimmer of talent in it.. that is my opnion and I'm sticking to it. I have seen far better work here IMO.


Reread my posts.. I acknowledged that he probably doesn't know any better. But if don't want to hear me reply to your comments in return do not direct them to me as I will respond.

ggg
01-05-2003, 05:46 AM
I am thankful for people like Gmask that question the validity of something. If you put something out in the public especially meant be to be art, expect critisism and be prepared to answer it.

You are asking of peoples time and consideration of what you are expressing by posting an image. In any decent art class this image would be torn to shreads just for its content and more seriously if credit for the inspiraion was not given would recieve at least from me a failing grade as legally required by any accredation board as plaguarism.

Thank you gmask, I could be wrong but it looked like poser to me too. So often on this site it is proven very often that a model is a poser model, uses others textures without credit, or just looks good from one angle because its retouched significantly. Thankfully many including myself have questioned the "creator". It is amazing how much work here that required little of the creator is praised as "kick ass". Try it in an interview and it will be over immediately.

Even amonst friends not revealing an obvious source would be immoral and frowned apon and teased or joked about. In a situation where the parties familiarity with each other decreases the critisism will increase, as an audiences right.

Like many artistic forums this is a public place like a gallery, expect questions. If credit is not given to a source it seems obvious to expect some to question ones ethics and the validity of any other parts of the work. Sometimes I think critisim can go too far, but not here, especially considering the frequent posers here.

As a study its quite good and some teachers give it as an assignment. I find the award odd but if they stand up to scrutiny, good, nice looking image.

If you want praise only, hang your work with fridge magnets.

Lunatique
01-05-2003, 05:52 AM
Let me shed some light on this situation here:

1)In a country like China, copyright infringement, pirating, palgiarizing..etc are done as common practice. People don't even give it a second thought. If you asked them point blank about it, they'll probably say it's wrong to do it, but in everyday life, no one gives it a thought.

2)Copying artwork is a common thing seen on Chinese CG websites. I've seen it countless times. Some are even blatant cases of art theives taking artwork by western artists and doing some photoshop manipulation and then call it their own. Of course, sometimes these guys are caught red-handed by other Chinese artists who are well versed in the Western artists.

3)It's a difference of attitude. The Chinese simply don't take copyright infringement nearly as seriously as we do. If you've been to China, you'll understand how entire businesses are built on copyright infringement here in China. It's everywhere you go, and as common as seeing McDonald everywhere.

I think cwb just didn't understand how serious the Westerners take the copyright issue.

And I want to bring up a point for everyone to think about:

If cwb's posting was of a low quality piece of CG--the kind produced by newbies with no art training, and with glaring mistakes in anatomy, color harmony, texturing...etc, he would've gotten crucified here when people pointed out it's a copy of Luis Royo's painting. But, now, because he's a skilled artist, it all of a sudden makes a huge difference?

Does the display of talent all of a sudden rise above moral standards for everyone?

ggg
01-05-2003, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Lunatique

I think cwb just didn't understand how serious the Westerners take the copyright issue.

Does the display of talent all of a sudden rise above moral standards for everyone?
No it does not. And any Chinese artists I know may recognize and often accept their countries violation of copyright but would not accept an artists unethical copying of something without credit given unless as it was an honest oversight.

suicidal
01-05-2003, 06:05 AM
i don't post anything here becuse people just end up getting bashed and yelled at over nothing.

Originally posted by gmask
jeez you guys would fawn over any image that has a glimmer of talent in it.. that is my opnion and I'm sticking to it. I have seen far better work here IMO.

A GLIMMER OF TALENT. HAHA this my friend is not a glimmer of talent this is a tremendous amount. this guy is very talented and this is by far one of the greater peices of art work i have seen here. Why don't you just shutup about the whole thing. so what if it's not origional. This is truly amazing, i love it.:love:

I think that cwb has more than a glimer of talent. He sure has a lot more talent then me and you gmask. How could you bash something this buetiful. The poor little guy doesn't even know how to speak english for christs sake. If i knew you i would kick you ass gmask. You have no right to go on about this guy and say he has just "a glimmer of talent." and that you have seen way better. Well imho this is one of the best. when i first saw this i was blwn away by how truly buetiful it was. It's not my fault if you can't see true buety. You wanted a war well here it is.

KingMob
01-05-2003, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Gmask

Oh yeah I got the torch in hand and the angry mob to follow me.. Spare me the drama. jeez you guys would fawn over any image

Im not angry.... :scream:

(see cause my name is mob? so i used that to twist his words, I am clever like a fox!)

Rudity
01-05-2003, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Lunatique
Let me shed some light on this situation here:

1)In a country like China, copyright infringement, pirating, palgiarizing..etc are done as common practice. People don't even give it a second thought. If you asked them point blank about it, they'll probably say it's wrong to do it, but in everyday life, no one gives it a thought.

2)Copying artwork is a common thing seen on Chinese CG websites. I've seen it countless times. Some are even blatant cases of art theives taking artwork by western artists and doing some photoshop manipulation and then call it their own. Of course, sometimes these guys are caught red-handed by other Chinese artists who are well versed in the Western artists.

3)It's a difference of attitude. The Chinese simply don't take copyright infringement nearly as seriously as we do. If you've been to China, you'll understand how entire businesses are built on copyright infringement here in China. It's everywhere you go, and as common as seeing McDonald everywhere.

I think cwb just didn't understand how serious the Westerners take the copyright issue.

And I want to bring up a point for everyone to think about:

If cwb's posting was of a low quality piece of CG--the kind produced by newbies with no art training, and with glaring mistakes in anatomy, color harmony, texturing...etc, he would've gotten crucified here when people pointed out it's a copy of Luis Royo's painting. But, now, because he's a skilled artist, it all of a sudden makes a huge difference?

Does the display of talent all of a sudden rise above moral standards for everyone?

Well said, better than what I said about the China thing. :)
Words aint my fortay.

slooper
01-05-2003, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by slooper
My statements go beyond "IMO" and border on fact. For those who feel the need to attack in order to justify or defend the self-percieved elevated positions that you have attained (or wish to attain) within the industry and this online community, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Your words are those of schoolyard bullies wanting to make sure that another student knows his place in the heirarchy. And although you may percieve yourselves as "industry professionals" your lack of tact, sensitivity, and perception drives me to prayer that I never find myself supervised by the likes of you in any company I work for.

My compliments to those who have attempted to offsest those here who are so quick to judge and scrutinize. It is no wonder that many non-Americans see us as self-righteous, condescending blow-hards. With the way CWB has been treated thus far, I would not disagree with him if he came to the same conclusion. Gmask, if anyone is owed an apology, it is CWB and the CgTalk community; an apology from you.

Sean Looper


It appears more circling buzzards have been attracted to the carcass. GGG, rather than rephrase what I have already stated, I simply repeated myself above. Being a SCAD professor nor a Master's student does not give you the right to make the sort of personal judgements that you have made, especially considering the EXTREMELY small amount of information presented here.

ricktu
01-05-2003, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by gmask
Oh yeah I got the torch in hand and the angry mob to follow me.. Spare me the drama. jeez you guys would fawn over any image that has a glimmer of talent in it.. that is my opnion and I'm sticking to it. I have seen far better work here IMO.


Man what is your problem ? If you think this image took only a glimmer of talent to produce , even if it is a recreation of another image, then you have impossible standards. Okay, so there may be significantly better pieces of artwork displayed on this board but how does that diminish this piece ? And why did you bother even saying that ? what was the point of it ?

Anyway you look at it this guy has some talent and knocking it the way you are just makes you look bitter and obnoxious.

Originally posted by gmask
But if don't want to hear me reply to your comments in return do not direct them to me as I will respond.

Huh ? where did this come from ? Who said anything about not wanting you to respond ? I think you need to cut back on your caffiene intake.

HieSpike
01-05-2003, 06:52 AM
O.k.....
We've established that it's a good work of art.
We've established that he should have given credit to the 2d artist.
We've established that it could be either max or poser.
We've established he's chinese.

Can we move on.......
there's more art out there and in this site that we need to examine like this.

Peace,
Kane
p.s. it has been fun though!!
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

ggg
01-05-2003, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by slooper
It appears more circling buzzards have been attracted to the carcass. GGG, rather than rephrase what I have already stated, I simply repeated myself above. Being a SCAD professor nor a Master's student does not give you the right to make the sort of personal judgements that you have made, especially considering the EXTREMELY small amount of information presented here.
I have made two judgements, that the image was unoriginal which is unrefutable and that it looks like a poser model in the wireframe and if I'm wrong, as was said at the bottom of my post if its stands up to scrutiny, good, as it is a good image.

Of course I have the right to make these judgements and make the statements I made in support of questioning the validity of an image as well as any reasonable critisisms, just as you have a right to say I have no right but obviously legally and moraly I have the right to do so and question source. The only legally questionable statement so far in this thread was Originally posted by suicidal
If i knew you i would kick you ass gmask.
Sloopy, as to you refering to my personal history, whatever, I have degrees coming out of my ears, and their status is not my basis for my opinions, but rather the experience with fellow artists during the achievement of those degrees, anmd my excellent students helped forge my opinions on credit and originality.
My comments here are in general about submitions of artwork to anything. If the work is original, as I said, it is a good image. I understand one can forget to credit a source as was the case here. My comments are in support of gmask and others that question the vaility of an image as is their right especially considering the amount of lack of credit given a this site by new posters.

Do a search on it, there was lots of stuff here passed off as totally orginal, and if it wasn't original in most situations I know of it would be an issue of misrepresentation, such as at a job interview(it would bring to question ones ability and morals so not hired), class assignement(fail due to plagurism required by accredation or else other students could demand grade changes for not adhering to a school wide policy), art competition (copyright issues that could be sued over) etc etc.
Why should a website that seems to represent artistic as well as some technical achievement be different in standards and why should any of us respond differently?

Neural Riptide
01-05-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by HieSpike
O.k.....
We've established that it's a good work of art.
We've established that he should have given credit to the 2d artist.
We've established that it could be either max or poser.
We've established he's chinese.

Can we move on.......
there's more art out there and in this site that we need to examine like this.

Peace,
Kane
p.s. it has been fun though!!
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

Yeah.. what he said. :)

gmask
01-05-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by suicidal
You wanted a war well here it is.

I fart in your general direction :airguitar

ggg
01-05-2003, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by HieSpike

there's more art out there and in this site that we need to examine like this.

exactly like this? ;)



PS sorry Slooper, typo'ed sloopy in my last post

LucentDreams
01-05-2003, 07:19 AM
speaking of accredation boards lets talk as people who are or were students, who didn't take an arts course where you were required to study and reproduce something else, Film students often reshoot a scene from hitchcock films for studies, painters paint van gogh's starry night or sunflowers, student composers do arrangements of beethoven before doing their own, and who here that draws haven't drawn or even worse traced and image before in his life. Fact is his image is a study and nothing more. As someone teaching workshops in a highschool I know serious plageurism is taken in schools and yet we also show the importance of studies. If he was to sell this piece or work then he better pay some royalties and make sure he has permission but otherwise he is showing a study he did.

And I like stimpy's comment "some people bitch at him for copying the image and other bitch at him for not copying it closely enough... " because oddly enough gmask has done both :)

Is Paul Hitchenson a bad artist simply because he made 3 images inspired by 2D works which he recreated in 2.5D? Seems to me he got a lot of praise, and while I like his images, they don't compare to cwb's image. http://209.132.69.82/user-gallery/getthumbs.shtml

On the issue of poser, I'm not a big fan of it myself have not and will not ever use it, but that doesn't remove it from being a possible artists tool check out http://www.earthcurves.com/
I wouldn't say will Kramer is a bad artist simply because he used a poser model. Its like concept artists complaining about others using circle guides, or a classical animater complaing about 3D artists for using a computer. Its simply another tool its how its used that makes the difference, unfortunately poser puts 3D in the hands of the laziest hobbyists which give it a really bad rep, but look what a good artist can do with it.

I agree with you GGG about to many artist getting absolute worship for okay or decent artwork, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve some praise, There are better artists out there capable of far more, but fact is this is an amazing piece of work done by a good artist While I don't think he the best there is because of it I note the skill he has and make sure to acknowledge that to him.

typeA
01-05-2003, 07:26 AM
<snipped by admin> <watch your language> :shame:

lildragon
01-05-2003, 07:27 AM
People, dangit lay this to rest, no more fist fighting in regards to this thread, I'm getting sick and tired of all this frickin battle of wits everytime art is questioned, it's a vicious never-ending cycle. The last thing I need on my plate is members carrying on like this, If this doesn't stop I'll put an end to it, this is NOT the place for this type of behaviour.

chill out for petes sake!

CGmonkey
01-05-2003, 07:31 AM
yeah.. you shouldn't question art in the first place. Art is there to enjoy.

Lyr
01-05-2003, 07:33 AM
Inspired, study and copy are all very different things. In an inspired image the subject matter would be similar, but reflect opinions and ideas from the artist bieng inspired. A study is a purposeful educational exercise. In all the studies I did in art school they were compared directly to to the master work. If they were not compared directly master work what exactly then would be the purpose of a study? IF this piece were a study the artist would have made a point of it. He did not. He posted in the manner that one would post original creative work. This image even bears his copyright at http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/ag-ap382.html If that doesn't disgust you on some level what would? Does he have to profit moentarily for you to draw the line?

LucentDreams
01-05-2003, 07:47 AM
Lil dragon is right and I apologize for my behaviour and this last comment from me, but it should be noted that he didn't copyright it, raph 3d does that for all images posted. once it got into raph then it was their fault not his.

ggg
01-05-2003, 07:47 AM
I agree it can get out of hand. ATM questioning originality or questioning that question just seems to be the best method to get the award for being involved in the most locked threads, but the question begs to be asked, and I actually think not asking would be irresponsible and condone it.


Kaiskai even the earthcurves site art has a taint to it though, and I'm not sure a fully completed model is a tool but I can see how as a found object it can be used for art.
I know what you mean about highschool workshops and plaguarism, its a tough call where or at what age to point it out, I agree studies are definitely a valuable part of the learning process.

Kaiser_Sose
01-05-2003, 08:01 AM
Did anyone run a few messages from the board where the wire screen shot was posted in a translator ...

roge12576
01-05-2003, 08:23 AM
Excellent job cwb (if you are reading this)


The arrogance seen posted in this thread is sad. :thumbsdow

animalsp
01-05-2003, 08:56 AM
talking about copy, what do u call this?

Jimstein
01-05-2003, 10:53 AM
Hehe... You are not the only one to question royos "art"

slooper
01-05-2003, 04:22 PM
omg ROFL

THAT IS ROYO'S ART! I couldn't tell what the writing said!

Hoohoo that's rich!

gmask
01-05-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Kaiskai
once it got into raph then it was their fault not his.

yup. but would they want to be sued (if that were an issue) because they did not know. Anyway if it came to that they could just remove the image.


From Raph >Unlike most other galleries, the standards to be accepted in this gallery are very high.

Feel free to hate me for my opinion everyone has one one just like every one has buttholes. When I first saw this image I was not impressed and it made me wonder why people liked it so much. I figure because it's got a neked woman in it.. whoo hoo.. I bet you could post just about any piece of poser porn here and as long as it was lit well people would be "amazed".. again this is just my opinion.. The only reason I did comment on this is because the image turns out to be a reproduction, copy, ode to or whatever to Royo and still the first post says nothing about this.. so everybody who comes in and sees the first post and does not realize what it is.

I have said nothing to deserve threats of violence and those who would do so do it because they are incapable of defending their point of view or leaving it alone.. what difference does it make? Unless you live in the US and want the FEDs at your door?

So art is no longer about originality how sad. I guess art is now more about technique.. I guess Andy Warhol is truly the quintessential modern artist.

Peace out :thumbsup:

king of tartine
01-05-2003, 07:09 PM
absolutely fabulous, just fabulous...

levin
01-05-2003, 07:16 PM
his intent was to make a replica of an artwork,
he did not say that the idea was his.

if you make a render of the statue of liberty or the chrysler tower or the mona lisa or spiderman for that matter, should you be shunned too?

i see a lot of moria orcs here dudes.... don't tell me it all sucks


maybe an inset of the original reference to the final render would settle things

Vic3k
01-05-2003, 07:32 PM
pointless anyway. most thread i see end up just about the same with gmask present. sorry gmask, just a short observatioin.
you should smoke a doopie or something, it's like law and order here. what levin said...

SheepFactory
01-05-2003, 07:36 PM
<closed>