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Vizfizz
04-25-2006, 11:20 PM
Hello Everyone.

The Igors and I have proceeded forward to produce more geometry creation plugins for EIAS. Our cooperative effort to produce Mr. Revolver turned out rather nicely, so I've challenged the Igors to produce more.

Trestle and Scrim are two separate plugins which are being designed to help facilitate a plugin based modeling "family" for EIAS. That family so far includes the following plugins from Konkeptoine:

Mrs. Bebel: For simple extrudes and advanced beveling capabilities.
Mr. Revolver: For lathed symetrical objects.
Encage: Sub-d surface generation.

Our new plugins, Trestle and Scrim, are designed to supplment Konkeptoine's offerings by introducing a new 2D drawing hub (Trestle) and a skinning engine (Scrim). We realize that without direct host support of modeling capabilities within EIAS, plugins will remain only a partial solution to the entire modeling requirement at best. However, we believe that plugin based modeling solutions offer the user some major enhancements to EIAS over traditional and simple .fact, .dxf or .obj imports.

Those advantages are:

1. Rapid hard surface geometry construction
2. Animation capabilities
3. Guaranteed compatibility
4. Convience
5. Improved workflow
6. Speed

Trestle will begin by providing the user a method to construct 2D drawing entities within EIAS. Similar to the graph editor in Mr. Revolver, Trestle will also provide methods to construct predefined 2D shapes, more advanced drawing tools, 2D point tracking for control point animation, and we plan to experiment with different forms of spline based drawing tools. The evolution of Trestle will take some time, and I will allow the Igors to expound upon the v1 offering of tools. However, Trestle's end result will provide data that can be fed into Scrim for skinning and other geometry plugins that we have planned for the future.

Scrim is an adaptive geometry generation plugin. It is designed to scan its child entities (provided by Trestle, Path2Line or Revolver) and loft a surface between its children. Each independant child can be scaled, rotated or translated and the Scrim surface will be updated immediately. Scrim's children can also possess their own deformation structure, thus modifying the loft with bends, twists, waves, and so forth. The results are quite impressive.

So.. for those of you who haven't signed up for being on the beta team... time is a wasting!

I also invite the entire EIAS community to participate the production of these plugins by particpating in discussion. Write down your ideas as you see things develop in this thread.

Thanks Again

Vizfizz
04-26-2006, 11:52 PM
The following people have responded to act as beta testers for Trestle and Scrim by providing dongle and platform information:

Ian Waters
Uwe Kerpen
Stephane Crouzet
Brian S. (Sacslacker)

Beta kits will be distributed shortly.

Please private message me your email address where I can email the beta kits.

Alternates: (No info received)
Richard Joly
Joel Ruiz

Vizfizz
04-27-2006, 06:50 AM
Trestle Beta 1 and Scrim Beta 3 has been seeded to the beta team.

Joel Ruiz
Ian Waters
Uwe Kerpen

Stephane Crouzet: Email address required. Please send private message.
Brian S. (Sacslacker): Email address required. Please send private message.

Vizfizz
04-27-2006, 06:59 AM
Here are a couple of quick snapshots of the interface so far. Trestle is still very preliminary.

halfworld
04-27-2006, 12:40 PM
I spent a few minutes this morning familiarising myself with trestle and I like what I see. The 'Edit UVs' button has me intrigued!

The 'replicate' feature is very cool, It would be great if you could offset rotation as well as distance though, so you could have a series of particle lines on a curve.

And out of curiosity, is it theoretically possible to do the exact reverse of Path2Line? By this I mean can you create a motion path from a particle line?....

Just curious,
Ian

Igors
04-27-2006, 04:21 PM
Hi, Ian
I spent a few minutes this morning familiarising myself with trestle and I like what I see. The 'Edit UVs' button has me intrigued!

The 'replicate' feature is very cool, It would be great if you could offset rotation as well as distance though, so you could have a series of particle lines on a curve.

And out of curiosity, is it theoretically possible to do the exact reverse of Path2Line? By this I mean can you create a motion path from a particle line?....

Just curious,
Ian
1. There is nothing intrigued in UV (under construction now). That's absolute standard UV usage: fix topology for animated graphs, similar as a texture is fixed for deformed objects.

2. Replicate feature (proposed by Brian) looked very modest first. But after some playing/experimenting we've found this simple theme definitely interested, the problem is only this feature eats a lot of time (that other features need too) :)

3. A plug-in cannot set desired animation channels interpolation, but plug-in can create/delete keyframes (same as fill frames with data). But, of course, Trestle isn't designed to do so.

Vizfizz
04-27-2006, 05:22 PM
The biggest issue I see with Replicate is any other option other than Z series creates a connecting line between the second and all consecutive replicants. Big problem when skinning between two or more sets of these.

Igors
04-27-2006, 06:03 PM
Hi, Brian
The biggest issue I see with Replicate is any other option other than Z series creates a connecting line between the second and all consecutive replicants. Big problem when skinning between two or more sets of these.Yes, something "not Z-series" is not very suitable as a Scrim's input. But there are other applications

Vizfizz
04-27-2006, 06:59 PM
So... are you telling us that its not possible to remove the connecting line? I understand that when Trestle generates replicants of a polyline shape, the resulting objects are going to be seen by EIAS as a single group. Thats fine for this purpose and I think scale and rotate functions for replication should be implemented. If users want independant objects to individually animate, they will have to use separate non replicant Trestle instances. However, if people activate the replicate function, whether in Repeat/Mirror X or Y, the resulting shapes have to be free standing and not connected by a poly line. Its ok that they are a single group. The whole point of providing replicate functions is to permit skinning between replicant groups.

worx3d
04-27-2006, 08:09 PM
wow, these plugins are really exciting.. I can see the animation possibilities, very cool.

I'm getting some shading artifacts. I made some Trestle polylines and lofted with Scrim, but the resulting body doesn't look right. I'm playing with the shading angle and the steps, but I can't get it to look right. Here's a render and a screenshot:

Joel

http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/scrim01.jpg

Igors
04-27-2006, 08:42 PM
Hi, Joel
I'm getting some shading artifacts. I made some Trestle polylines and lofted with Scrim, but the resulting body doesn't look right. I'm playing with the shading angle and the steps, but I can't get it to look right. Here's a render and a screenshot:
Set "Smooth Angle" = 180. If it doesn't help, then archive this prj and send to us. Thx

Igors
04-27-2006, 08:50 PM
Hi, Brian
So... are you telling us that its not possible to remove the connecting line? I understand that when Trestle generates replicants of a polyline shape, the resulting objects are going to be seen by EIAS as a single group. Thats fine for this purpose and I think scale and rotate functions for replication should be implemented. If users want independant objects to individually animate, they will have to use separate non replicant Trestle instances. However, if people activate the replicate function, whether in Repeat/Mirror X or Y, the resulting shapes have to be free standing and not connected by a poly line. Its ok that they are a single group. The whole point of providing replicate functions is to permit skinning between replicant groups.All other repeats (except Z-series) are designed to produce a single (but complex) polyline from basic graph. Thus there is a connection line. Otherwise we need another replication modes: X(Y) series. But.. we really see no their usability. If a series of closed polylines are in same plane, then.. what rational surface can be created between them?

worx3d
04-27-2006, 09:30 PM
So, if I want hard edges, I will get artifacts? I mean, it only renders fine (well, alomst ;) ) with a smoothing angle of 180, but if I set it low in order to get hard edges, I also get artifacts...

http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/scrim02.jpg

Jo

Vizfizz
04-27-2006, 10:03 PM
Hey Igors,

This is the problem I pointed out to you previously. Surfaces with a decent amount of curvature render out "ok", but the flatter the surface and lower the surface angle, the more artifacting and black spots appear. We should be able to make the surface appear faceted and clean without strange shading occurring.

The immediate fix is to export the resulting model and reimport the results via transporter and have it reset the shading angle. That usually gets rid of the artifacting look for me. However, this of course defeats the overall purpose of the plugin.

Another thing I've noticed is Encage will improve the shading problems. But again.. not the "right" answer.

worx3d
04-27-2006, 10:11 PM
Exactly Brian, we need to have it shade correctly at low smoothing angles. If it doesn't, the usability will be severely limited for these great plugins.

J

Igors
04-27-2006, 10:21 PM
Hi, Brian and Joel
This is the problem I pointed out to you previously. Surfaces with a decent amount of curvature render out "ok", but the flatter the surface and lower the surface angle, the more artifacting and black spots appear. We should be able to make the surface appear faceted and clean without strange shading occurring.

The immediate fix is to export the resulting model and reimport the results via transporter and have it reset the shading angle. That usually gets rid of the artifacting look for me. However, this of course defeats the overall purpose of the plugin.

Another thing I've noticed is Encage will improve the shading problems. But again.. not the "right" answer.Absolute not right. We need a project with artifacts

So, if I want hard edges, I will get artifacts? I mean, it only renders fine (well, alomst ;) ) with a smoothing angle of 180, but if I set it low in order to get hard edges, I also get artifacts...Project please

Vizfizz
04-27-2006, 10:36 PM
Hi, Brian
All other repeats (except Z-series) are designed to produce a single (but complex) polyline from basic graph. Thus there is a connection line. Otherwise we need another replication modes: X(Y) series. But.. we really see no their usability. If a series of closed polylines are in same plane, then.. what rational surface can be created between them?

Since EIAS does not permit plugins to generate multiple independant entities other than nulls, lights, and cameras...and the resulting polylines are grouped into a single object, the user is forced to create multiple Trestle and Scrim instances in order to create any kind of array of surfaces. (Examples of surface arrays: Wooden Planks, house siding, rafters, slats, bolts, pop rivets, or any other kind of repetitive structure)

However, if we can allow Trestle to create 2D arrays of closed polyline shapes, that all exist within the same 2D plane, the user can simply duplicate that single Trestle instance, move it up or down off that plane, and Scrim a surface between the two arrays. Great for architectural purposes and we don't get tons of duplicated Trestle and Scrim hierarchies.

When you connect the closed polyline you create an arbitary surface when you scrim two Trestle arrays together. That connecting polyline has to go... and more 2D repeat functions are required.

I will send up some samples tonight.

worx3d
04-27-2006, 10:56 PM
A couple of animations showing some artifacts:

http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/r1.mov (500k)
http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/r2.mov (500k)

the project file:

http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/Project2.prj.zip

cheers

Joel

Igors
04-28-2006, 12:08 AM
Hi, Brian
However, if we can allow Trestle to create 2D arrays of closed polyline shapes, that all exist within the same 2D plane, the user can simply duplicate that single Trestle instance, move it up or down off that plane, and Scrim a surface between the two arrays. Great for architectural purposes and we don't get tons of duplicated Trestle and Scrim hierarchies.

When you connect the closed polyline you create an arbitary surface when you scrim two Trestle arrays together. That connecting polyline has to go... and more 2D repeat functions are required.
We caught your idea. Ok, let's add X-series and Y-series in Trestle beta 2. However, "loft array" would not work as you write. Example: there are 2 Scrim's children, the first contains polylines 1, 2, 3 and the second 4, 5, 6. The Scrim adds all 6 polylines, but in sequence 1-2-3-4-5-6 (not in 1-4, 2-5, 3-6). So, additional options are required. We've nothing against this potential feature, but how it's usable - that's we don't know. Hmm.. if 1==2==3 and 4==5==6, then it's definitely simpler to re-import Scrim's output and duplicate it twice. At least it would be rendered faster. Your arguments?

Igors
04-28-2006, 12:34 AM
Hi, Joel
A couple of animations showing some artifacts:

http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/r1.mov (500k)
http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/r2.mov (500k)

the project file:

http://www.worx3d.com/forumpost/Project2.prj.zipThx, d/loaded.
1. Animation: "by Position" practically has no chances to be stable in animation. Use "by Indices" that's often suitable for polylines with same number of points (as in your prj). Another solution ("by UVs") coming soon

2. Junk vertices normals - we see it, need time to fix

3. We see another one problem after we rendered your prj. The "Smooth Angle" is not suitable for animation. In your prj: a some point can correspond to "acute angle" in one polyline and to "obtuse angle" in next polyline. If polyline point's are animated, then the angle is also changed. So, now 0 and 180 are only values of "Smooth Angles" that give stable shading in animation.
So, what are ideas/suggestions how to solve this problem?

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 01:08 AM
Hi, Brian

We caught your idea. Ok, let's add X-series and Y-series in Trestle beta 2. However, "loft array" would not work as you write. Example: there are 2 Scrim's children, the first contains polylines 1, 2, 3 and the second 4, 5, 6. The Scrim adds all 6 polylines, but in sequence 1-2-3-4-5-6 (not in 1-4, 2-5, 3-6). So, additional options are required. We've nothing against this potential feature, but how it's usable - that's we don't know. Hmm.. if 1==2==3 and 4==5==6, then it's definitely simpler to re-import Scrim's output and duplicate it twice. At least it would be rendered faster. Your arguments?

Ok.. check out this object. I wanted to create a series of pipes. Here we have one Scrim instance and 4 Trestle instances. The first or base Trestle instance is a polystar and there are 5 X-repeat copies. Its rotated into place on the X axis and positioned. The Trestle instance is then duplicated and moved up on the Y axis 3 more times. The top instance is scaled at the middle thus causing the pipes to bend. A total of 5 plugins are used. The connecting line should not exist because I want 5 freestanding pipes.

If we did this your way, there would be a Scrim Instance for each pipe, and 4 Trestle instances per pipe making a total of 20 plugins used. Each Scrim instance has to be placed by hand along with each Trestle instance.

Advantages of your method: Independant control of each Trestle Rib and each Scrim placement. Plus, no connecting line between pipes.

Disadvantages: 4 x more plugins used. More memory. Potentially slower performance.

Trestle should have the ability to create a single master polyline shape within the editor and place it into any kind of 2D grid with control over distance, rotation, and scale for each replicant within that instance of Trestle.

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 01:35 AM
Joel's sample is certainly an issue, however, I must interject and state that greater care would need to be used when placing and animating control ribs. Right now I can detect several places where the ribs are not properly aligned, misaligned or turned at too great of an angle from the previous rib thus causing geometry to overlap...especially for a loft. This is precisely why we need some kind of sweeping or path extruding capability over lofting for certain types of animation requirements.

As for the 0 or 180 shading angle...This is going to be tricky. We obviously need the ability to set the shading angle accordingly to harden or soften the resulting render, however, experience has shown me in Maya that when things start to flicker like this its due to the lack of geometric resolution and the normals wind up pointing in inappropriate directions to the camera. In our case, as geometry is being generated on the fly, its moving as a result of the changing control points. The user will need to be educated on when animating control ribs are better than saving out a Scrim model, reimporting it, and then skinning it to a set of bones for animation control. At this point geometry will be "locked" and wont change on the fly like it does now. Perhaps we can have a toggle to "lock" geometry so it will act more like an imported piece of geometry.

And as always, Encage helps the situation dramatically. Setting a sub-d level of 1 and 1 for both camera and animator along with a .1 smoothing radius nearly eliminated all traces of flickering except in those areas where control ribs were turned too sharply and geometry began to intersect itself.

Oh and Igors... changing to indices and smoothing angle to 180 certain does make a vast improvement, however, I also see that he's combining uniform and adaptive geometry. Perhaps just a single type is better than combining when animating? I noticed good results by increasing the uniform resolution and removing adaptive resolution. (Since the control ribs were at the same number of control points) and I set my smoothing angle back to 60. Flickering was reduced nearly 95% (save areas of folding geometry)

And speaking of shading angles. Its interesting to note that when you extrude a Trestle Shape within Mrs. Bebel... you get absolutly no shading angle artifacts. Why is that? A scrim surface should be as clean as a Bebel extrude.

sacslacker
04-28-2006, 05:46 AM
Hi guys,
Very cool plugin. If you don't mind I'd like to suggest a couple workflow items. I'm not sure if these are possible but for a new guy, these would help a lot. Feel free to throw tomatoes at me if these are silly suggestions. :eek:

1. It'd be way cool if we could select a number of Trestle objects and while they are selected, have the option to click a button (or something) in scrim to add them to it's "stack" in the order you selected. That seems like it would be a handy feature.

2. Inside of trestle, it would be cool if you could have a button to select adjacent points from the point you currently have selected. This would allow the user to quickly select a ring or expand their selections. Just a thought.

3. Added presets like the star preset. Perhaps sin wave, spirals, things like that. Or maybe a utility for generating these types of patterns kinda like:
http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/cgi-bin/PathGenerator.exe?FONCTION=PAGE&FORME=SIN

I've just got started with the plugins but I have to say, Trestle is pretty darn slick! I hope you don't mind these suggestions/ideas. I know your working hard to add features.

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 05:53 AM
Hi guys,
Very cool plugin. If you don't mind I'd like to suggest a couple workflow items. I'm not sure if these are possible but for a new guy, these would help a lot. Feel free to throw tomatoes at me if these are silly suggestions. :eek:

1. It'd be way cool if we could select a number of Trestle objects and while they are selected, have the option to click a button (or something) in scrim to add them to it's "stack" in the order you selected. That seems like it would be a handy feature.

2. Inside of trestle, it would be cool if you could have a button to select adjacent points from the point you currently have selected. This would allow the user to quickly select a ring or expand their selections. Just a thought.

3. Added presets like the star preset. Perhaps sin wave, spirals, things like that. Or maybe a utility for generating these types of patterns kinda like:
http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/cgi-bin/PathGenerator.exe?FONCTION=PAGE&FORME=SIN

I've just got started with the plugins but I have to say, Trestle is pretty darn slick! I hope you don't mind these suggestions/ideas. I know your working hard to add features.

Thanks for the suggestions.. lets address them:

#1: Great idea, unfortunately that is a "Host" requirement. The method of linking children to parents can either be done by dragging the child to the parent in the project window (multiple children are permitted) or select multiple children and click on the parent button in the project window and then select the appropriate scrim instance. I'm not sure if it will assign them in the order you select them or not. I will have to try.

#2: I like that idea. That's a question for the programmers.

#3: The Star Tool will give you circles, however, I wouldn't mind a few more presets too.

Keep the ideas coming!

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 06:08 AM
1. A true linear drawing tool where the user draws consecutive points to create a shape rather than adding points in a chain and then moving the points. I don't want to get rid of the chain of points method, but the current method still seems so awkward and unnatural to "draw" with.

2. Multiple line segments or closed shapes rather than just one in a single Trestle instance.

3. True Holes & 2D "boolean" functions. (Proabably a v2 request)

4. Grid/array type functions that allow distance, scale, and rotation parameters for each consecutive replicant.

5. Methods to create sets of control points for set driven key type functions.

6. B-spline drawing tools.

7. Arc drawing tools.

More ideas coming.

bronco
04-28-2006, 09:22 AM
hi,
i just got home from some family visiting, nice to see the testing has started.
ok, lets start.
trestle:
first thing is just something visualy:
http://www.o-fx.de/ts/grid01.jpg
second, is there a way to break a closed shape up? if not, i suggest something like shift-backspace to delete a point with both attached edges.

scrim:
nice!
i have a project with only two trestle instances and scrim. if you close the path, garbage will be produced. i guess this is right, because there are only two splines. but rendering this will produce something complete different than whats in animator. it will also take much longer to render.
i have had 3 unreproducable crashes with close path.
there are also shading artifacts -> bad normals.

feature suggestion:
it would be nice if the tesselation settings would be accessible for XP. i guess this could make some nice LOD control. could also produce artifacts when animating.

Igors
04-28-2006, 11:53 AM
Hi, gentlemen

The serious vertices normals bug is fixed (Brian, Joel). Additional details:

1."by Position" practically has no chances to be stable in animationThis sentence is too categorical and should be replaced with: "by Position" is less stable in animation

2. Calculating Vertices Normals is a heart of any model plug-in. Using of other ways (re-import, Encage etc.) is not disabled, but generally they are not able to produce such normals as original plug-in does, cause only the plug-in knows a way of model's building, others - only "some polygons". A plug-in can have or have not more or less features, but correct Vertices Normals is a thing that should be always and absolute. Don't hesitate to report us about any related with it problem

3. Smooth Angle animation instability caused by changing of source polylines. We've no ideas how to solve this (same as how other apps solve this). Any constructive suggestions are welcome

Hiddenman.fr
04-28-2006, 12:58 PM
Just made some fast tests this morning and found the Replicate function really cool in Tresle. Is there any chance that the Copy and Space number become animatable?

Thanks Brian and Igors for what you are trying to fill.

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 03:34 PM
Scrim Beta 4 (artifact bug fix) received... distributing to beta testers today.

Igors
04-28-2006, 03:41 PM
Hi again

First off, thanks for all for your proposition/ideas, many of them are very interested/promised. Let us answer step by step and slowly, we think a discussion of 10 things in one letter is not what we need :)

Ok.. check out this object. I wanted to create a series of pipes. Here we have one Scrim instance and 4 Trestle instances. The first or base Trestle instance is a polystar and there are 5 X-repeat copies. Its rotated into place on the X axis and positioned. The Trestle instance is then duplicated and moved up on the Y axis 3 more times. The top instance is scaled at the middle thus causing the pipes to bend. A total of 5 plugins are used. The connecting line should not exist because I want 5 freestanding pipes.

If we did this your way, there would be a Scrim Instance for each pipe, and 4 Trestle instances per pipe making a total of 20 plugins used. Each Scrim instance has to be placed by hand along with each Trestle instance.

Advantages of your method: Independant control of each Trestle Rib and each Scrim placement. Plus, no connecting line between pipes.

Disadvantages: 4 x more plugins used. More memory. Potentially slower performance.

Trestle should have the ability to create a single master polyline shape within the editor and place it into any kind of 2D grid with control over distance, rotation, and scale for each replicant within that instance of Trestle.

Well, any replication theme always initializes more, more and more options. And it's always hard to predict how usable they will be. Sorry, Brian, but up to now we see no valuable advantages of your "lofter array" idea (of course, we can mistake).

We've only one argument, however IMO it's more important than all others together: INDEPENDANT CONTROL. Really, imagine we've a way to create 100 tubes by using only one instance of Scrim + Trestles in our prj. But.. what user can do with these 100 result tubes? Nothing (or almost nothing) individual for each of them? Same material for all 100?

Also.. standard operations scale, rotate etc. make very different results for "tubes block" and for "individual tube" (different centers, offsets etc.). In other words, if we need a 100 same tubes, then it's a task of Placer Deposit. And if we want 100 different tubes, then it's not clear how we can control their difference cause standard controls look not suitable to do this.

Add an "individual control" into Trestle? Hmm.. it looks heavy and ineffective: "select an instance from list", numerous problems with variable number of instances etc.

In any case we think it's a good idea to implement first a Master/Slave feature in Trestle and see the problem above with new feature/experience.

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 03:54 PM
There are many instances where creating a series of identical shapes in a row or grid can come in very handy, especially for Trestle. Is Placer Deposit a better solution? Absolutely. Nothing will out do Placer when it comes to uniform and random placement. That plugin is amazing. I only suggest providing grid/array type placements in order to keep overhead low from a plugin perspective, not to mention that every modeler I've ever used has some kind of step and repeat duplicate function. If Scrim is generating geometry that has UV coordinates, texturing objects shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Secondly, lets think of other non-geometry creation circumstances where this could be used. Perhaps users would want to use an array of Trestle generated polygons to act as a particle emitter. If we had animation controls over their distances, rotation, and scales, very, very, very interesting surface emmissions could be produced with Trestle!

Did I say very interesting enough?

At least lets work to remove the connecting line from the current implentation.

Hiddenman.fr
04-28-2006, 04:15 PM
Here is a fast test I have made with two Trestle instances and one PlacerDeposit.
http://guetapens.wip.free.fr/trestle_01.mov

Trestle fills the gap, but if replicate number were animatable, let's just dream :)
(That's PlacerDeposit missing too, replication isn't animatable).

bronco
04-28-2006, 04:44 PM
sorry, but beta 4 doesn't work for me.
http://www.o-fx.de/ts/plugin.jpg
both .plm and .rsc are in the socket folder. (double-checked) :)

edit:
uups: eias 6.5 - windowsXP

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 05:02 PM
Here is a fast test I have made with two Trestle instances and one PlacerDeposit.
http://guetapens.wip.free.fr/trestle_01.mov

Trestle fills the gap, but if replicate number were animatable, let's just dream :)
(That's PlacerDeposit missing too, replication isn't animatable).


Your movie was not found on the server. :(

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 05:06 PM
sorry, but beta 4 doesn't work for me.
http://www.o-fx.de/ts/plugin.jpg
both .plm and .rsc are in the socket folder. (double-checked) :)


Hmmm.. working over here. OSX.

Igors?

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 05:12 PM
Oh.. another simple idea for polygon grid arrays in Trestle..a geometry source for radiosity/GI lighting.

Hiddenman.fr
04-28-2006, 05:37 PM
Sorry the file had been accidentally deleted but is now online. So all is ok.

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 05:57 PM
Sorry the file had been accidentally deleted but is now online. So all is ok.

Very cool. I love it!

You realize to that you could animate the shape of the stars over time by manipulating the control points... could be cool to see them morph into a different shape over time.

Hiddenman.fr
04-28-2006, 06:16 PM
Perhaps it is just me but I have some troubles to visualize the horizontal half part of the grid in Trestle. A darker line (but thiner) as in the vertical part would be great.

Igors
04-28-2006, 07:12 PM
sorry, but beta 4 doesn't work for me.
http://www.o-fx.de/ts/plugin.jpg
both .plm and .rsc are in the socket folder. (double-checked) :)

edit:
uups: eias 6.5 - windowsXP

Ops, sorry, Uwe and Brian S., we forgot to patch rsc files for PC
Just re-sent

Hiddenman.fr
04-28-2006, 07:15 PM
New movie uploaded with animated points.
http://guetapens.wip.free.fr/animations/trestle_02.mov

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 07:38 PM
PC plugins resent.

Vizfizz
04-28-2006, 11:32 PM
Igors...

Nice job on the artifact fix. Getting much cleaner shading now.. Woo hoo!

Hiddenman.fr
04-29-2006, 07:24 AM
The limitation of CableCraft is that this plug-in is dramatically slow (so unusable with complex models in most cases) whereas Scrim and Trestle are fast AND interactive (the preview of changes is updated in realtime). So my question : Would it be possible to allow Scrim to apply its magic when adding a Trestle path in the hierarchy too, that the lofting between two polylines can also be made following a path to model perfect tubes.

bronco
04-29-2006, 10:50 AM
thanks Igors, everythings working again. artifacts are gone, great.
scrim geometry is also working great with other plugins. little test with rodeo:
TS02_mp4.mov (http://www.o-fx.de/ts/TS02_mp4.mov)

now, is there a way to map the point coordinates of trestle control points to world coordinates? this would make it much easier to control them with XP.

edit: what exactly is close path supposed to do? i haven't found any workable setting so far. all it does for me is messing the shading up.

bronco
04-29-2006, 11:27 AM
scrim crashes everytime i try to close path with EI Modeler exported wires, taking EIAS with it.
project:
EIM wires (http://www.o-fx.de/ts/Project_TS03.zip)

still haven't figured out the function, but it shouldn't crash. or is close path not finished yet?

Igors
04-29-2006, 12:42 PM
Hi, Stephane
So my question : Would it be possible to allow Scrim to apply its magic when adding a Trestle path in the hierarchy too, that the lofting between two polylines can also be made following a path to model perfect tubes.
Lofting and extuding along path are different things introduced separately in 3D apps. Our opinion is same: they should not be mixed together. In Scrim each child polyline is fully under user control. Adding a path would produce numerous collisions/conflicts cause a child is affected by path AND by user's actions (like initially a child is absolute outside path, what to do?). So, it would be a headache without any benefit.

Igors
04-29-2006, 01:28 PM
Hi, Uwe
scrim crashes everytime i try to close path with EI Modeler exported wires, taking EIAS with it.
project:
EIM wires (http://www.o-fx.de/ts/Project_TS03.zip)

still haven't figured out the function, but it shouldn't crash. or is close path not finished yet?

1. "Close path" is designed for 3 and more childs (located not on same line) We run your prj on PC, yes, for 2 childs "close path" makes absurd results, but EI application doesn't crash, right? How about to make "close" inactive automatically if there are only 2 childs?

2. We seen your experiments with "Circle" + "Rectangle", you've got numerous surfaces overlaps. The cause is the childs topology is not "aligned" well. The details are:

Add Trestle to your prj, click "Import group" button, select "Circle" group and select "Points" radio. The imported polyline starts at right middle point and goes counter clockwise. Now press undo and import "Rectangle" group. It starts from left top corner and goes clockwise.

The Scrim always starts from assigning "U" to each source point. The first (start) point always has U=0, and the last U=1, inside points are calculated based on options. The surface is built between points of neighbor childs that have same U (see UV's in texture window).

Ok, we'll think how to use different EIM imported groups effectively

Igors
04-29-2006, 01:45 PM
Hi, Uwe
now, is there a way to map the point coordinates of trestle control points to world coordinates? this would make it much easier to control them with XP.
Sorry, but no, animation channels points values should be independant from scale, otherwise host will create a lot of keys each time scale is changed. But graph scales are channels too (i.e. they can be XP variables), so we see no problems with multiplying/dividing points' values by scales in XP script

Vizfizz
04-29-2006, 05:12 PM
thanks Igors, everythings working again. artifacts are gone, great.
scrim geometry is also working great with other plugins. little test with rodeo:
TS02_mp4.mov (http://www.o-fx.de/ts/TS02_mp4.mov)



Excellent work Uwe. The ability to animate control points in EI offers a lot of potential. We have a couple of ideas floating around about how to govern the behavior of various groups of control points, but many are limited by Animator's own limitations. But as you know, a little ingenuity goes a long way.

Hey.. any chance of sending me the rODEo manual? I'd love to see what it can do.

bronco
04-29-2006, 05:23 PM
you have mail ;)

FelixCat
04-29-2006, 10:04 PM
...And talking about rODEo... any news so far?
My Credit card is waiting...

FelixCat

Vizfizz
04-29-2006, 11:58 PM
Hey now...no hijacking threads... this is the Trestle & Scrim beta thread... :)

But I can't blame yah.. I'd love to see that plugin go final too. I've got another thread in the CGTalk forum asking about it. Check it out.

bronco
04-30-2006, 05:22 PM
Attention: NO eye-candy, but maybe it gets you thinking.

TS04_mp4.mov (http://www.o-fx.de/ts/TS04_mp4.mov)

there are some serious problems and the setup was a headache at first, but the possiblities are promising.

scrims seems to have some problems with shadows (cast on itself and on other objects).
looks pretty bad.

now the fun:
dear igors, i have noticed that the control points have z position values, which, of course, don't have any meaning.
i completle understand that these values are not editable with the graph editor.
can you make them editable via XP? true 3d wires?
in the example above the use of trestle is somewhat limited because it is only operating on a 2d plane. there is no sideway movement.

now let's dream, shall we?
if trestle would operate true 3d and patrick would get his things together and start on rodeo again, then we would be only a few steps away from, at least, fake soft bodys.
Maybe i am talking bull**** here, but i think the potential is here.
Your opinions?

project file (http://www.o-fx.de/ts/Project_TS04b.zip)

edit: i will investigate this further. right now there is no connection between the sides and middle part, thats why it streches so funny.

bronco
04-30-2006, 05:36 PM
Hi, Uwe


1. "Close path" is designed for 3 and more childs (located not on same line) We run your prj on PC, yes, for 2 childs "close path" makes absurd results, but EI application doesn't crash, right? How about to make "close" inactive automatically if there are only 2 childs?

2. We seen your experiments with "Circle" + "Rectangle", you've got numerous surfaces overlaps. The cause is the childs topology is not "aligned" well. The details are:

Add Trestle to your prj, click "Import group" button, select "Circle" group and select "Points" radio. The imported polyline starts at right middle point and goes counter clockwise. Now press undo and import "Rectangle" group. It starts from left top corner and goes clockwise.

The Scrim always starts from assigning "U" to each source point. The first (start) point always has U=0, and the last U=1, inside points are calculated based on options. The surface is built between points of neighbor childs that have same U (see UV's in texture window).

Ok, we'll think how to use different EIM imported groups effectively

now i get it, thanks Igors. i actually tested it with 5 wires, unfortunatly they were all pretty nicely line up, so there was nothing to see besides bad shading. my bad.
and no, it took EIAS with it.

Vizfizz
04-30-2006, 07:40 PM
Impressive test Uwe. I definitely see your point with the shadowing problems. Needs a little work. Perhaps increasing the Scrim geometry will help that. One of the biggest issues I see using Trestle and Scrim as a cloth animation plugin over being just a geometry generation plugin, is the method in which geometry is being created and modified. (Of course.. I'm no programmer, I'm just an artist).

Here is how I see it:

Scrim generates geometry on the fly through a lofting solution based on the size, rotation, location, uniform or adaptive geometry generation and CV point positions of Trestle or Path2Line wires. This means that at any point, the engine creating that geometry might create an unusual or broken topology if one of those factors is really out of place or whacked out in some way. A cloth simulator's mesh, however, is already "stabilized" or "locked" by utlizing geometry who's topology will not change but has greater control over the position of each individual vertex in the mesh. We don't have that elegant of a solution.

I think adding z position point control would be a great idea for applications like your own. Perhaps in future versions, Trestle's graph editor will be able to work in true 3D space rather than just a 2D plane. In the meanwhile, maybe if you continue to ask the Igors nicely, they might provide a way to tap into each point's Z channel and allow it to be modified by "other forces" like you've exhibited.

The issue we have, of course, is using the plug-in for something other than its intended purpose. We can't officially declare that Trestle and Scrim is a "cloth" simulator/solution, because its not. The public then sees the product with certain expectations and then winds up being disappointed because it doesn't possess all the dynamic forces for doing cloth simulation. (Not to mention users would be reliant on getting Rodeo too).

Now that the "official" stance has been declared...I like what I'm seeing. Trestle and Scrim have enormous potential for creating effects outside of the plugin's intended purpose. Creative people will always discover that and take advantage of it. However, we must state that "mileage will vary" in situations like these. Animating with Trestle and Scrim geometry must be deliberate and properly planned to ensure that the engine creating the geometry doesn't produce something undesireable. Fake softbodies tends to push the limits a bit. :)

I made a test a while back (without Rodeo of course) of 3 Path2Line instances rather than Trestle wires and applied EI deformers to Path2line instances. Made some interesting "cloth like" effects too.

bronco
04-30-2006, 08:50 PM
you are absolutely right, scrim is no cloth simulator, never intended to be. that's why i used the word fake :)
but, i think with a little work, on both ends - programer and user, it has the flexibility to be more than intended. it has limitations, sure.

i guess what i really want to say is this:
make all plugins as open as you can, not just scrim and trestle. give the user the posibility to access all posible animation channels, you'll never know what your own plugin is capable of.

(i am good at pushing the limits :) )

Vizfizz
05-02-2006, 07:48 PM
Hey Beta team...

Hows it going out there?

A new update to Trestle is coming soon.

bronco
05-02-2006, 07:52 PM
ok, last test with this fake-soft-body-typ-of-thing.
it now has high-tech interconnections, so that if one chain of controllers is affected by some force the others will follow.
well, high-tech as in sledgehammer, hehe.

TS04c-mp4.mov (http://www.schikschnus.de/ts/TS04c_mp4.mov)

still no sideway movement, thats why it looks funny at the end.

Please, Igors, make Trestle 3d.

ok, from now on i'll venture into other aspects of trestle and scrim.

Vizfizz
05-02-2006, 07:59 PM
ok, last test with this fake-soft-body-typ-of-thing.
it now has high-tech interconnections, so that if one chain of controllers is affected by some force the others will follow.
well, high-tech as in sledgehammer, hehe.

TS04c-mp4.mov (http://www.schikschnus.de/ts/TS04c_mp4.mov)

still no sideway movement, thats why it looks funny at the end.

Please, Igors, make Trestle 3d.

ok, from now on i'll venture into other aspects of trestle and scrim.

You certainly make a strong case for 3D point capabilities. What do you think Igors? I think at least some kind of indirect z position control or at least an active Z channel would be very worthwhile even if the Trestle graph editor doesn't support drawing in 3D at this time. (Perhaps a future upgrade).

bronco
05-02-2006, 09:34 PM
another thing: when the plugin windows are open, it is not possible to navigate in EIAS viewports. i know this is something that is possible only recently, but i think it would be nice to view the models from all directions when finetunig the settings.
please incorporate the functionality.

Vizfizz
05-02-2006, 10:02 PM
ok, last test with this fake-soft-body-typ-of-thing.
it now has high-tech interconnections, so that if one chain of controllers is affected by some force the others will follow.
well, high-tech as in sledgehammer, hehe.

TS04c-mp4.mov (http://www.schikschnus.de/ts/TS04c_mp4.mov)

still no sideway movement, thats why it looks funny at the end.

Please, Igors, make Trestle 3d.

ok, from now on i'll venture into other aspects of trestle and scrim.


Hey Uwe...

The Scrim shadows look better. Did you up the uniform resolultion or is this beta 4 of Scrim and the shadows are acting better for you?

bronco
05-02-2006, 10:12 PM
i upped the resolution to 200 and triangulated the stuff. that took care of the shadows, but that's only a workaround. a solid plane should cast a solid shadow.

Vizfizz
05-02-2006, 10:16 PM
Whew.. that's a bit overkill.. yes.. definitely, you're right. As for interactive windows with the plugin still open...I'll check with the Igors.

Igors
05-02-2006, 11:17 PM
Hi, Uwe, Brian
The Scrim shadows look better. Did you up the uniform resolultion or is this beta 4 of Scrim and the shadows are acting better for you?i upped the resolution to 200 and triangulated the stuff. that took care of the shadows, but that's only a workaround. a solid plane should cast a solid shadow.
We d/loaded the movie, but don't understand shadow problems you talk about. Please post a bug prj

Vizfizz
05-02-2006, 11:20 PM
Just look at the shadows of the first Uwe "fake softbody" test. The shadows generated on the surface of the scrim object breaks apart and if you look at the shadow casted on the floor, you can see breaks in the shadow with light.

bronco
05-02-2006, 11:35 PM
hey Igors, you can find the shadow problem in post #54. with project file.
any news on z values? :)

Igors
05-02-2006, 11:51 PM
Hi, Uwe
you are absolutely right, scrim is no cloth simulator, never intended to be. that's why i used the word fake :)
but, i think with a little work, on both ends - programer and user, it has the flexibility to be more than intended. it has limitations, sure.Sorry, Uwe, but we don't share your opinion. It's impossible to be "half-pregnancy", any cloth simulation, from very simple up to very complex, needs absolute concrete things like forces, fibers' resistance etc. The Scrim never will be a cloth simulator simply cause it never was designed to do this

i guess what i really want to say is this:
make all plugins as open as you can, not just scrim and trestle. give the user the posibility to access all posible animation channels, you'll never know what your own plugin is capable of.
(i am good at pushing the limits :) )This story is not a new :) However, we think an artist's creativity should not be used instead of absent physics engine (cloth simulator). The "normal" solution for your movie would be: create a mesh and a animated sphere (just Ubershapes) and run a simulator to solve all rest: collision detections etc. Do you prefer more complex way? :) Of course, it's your affair and you can use plug-in absolute for all you want (count things absolute outside of our imagination). But please agree: it does not mean that a plug-in should be suitable for absolute all you designed :) The Scrim builds a surface between cross-sections, this functionality is clear and guaranteed.

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 12:32 AM
Hi, Uwe
Sorry, Uwe, but we don't share your opinion. It's impossible to be "half-pregnancy", any cloth simulation, from very simple up to very complex, needs absolute concrete things like forces, fibers' resistance etc. The Scrim never will be a cloth simulator simply cause it never was designed to do this

This story is not a new :) However, we think an artist's creativity should not be used instead of absent physics engine (cloth simulator). The "normal" solution for your movie would be: create a mesh and a animated sphere (just Ubershapes) and run a simulator to solve all rest: collision detections etc. Do you prefer more complex way? :) Of course, it's your affair and you can use plug-in absolute for all you want (count things absolute outside of our imagination). But please agree: it does not mean that a plug-in should be suitable for absolute all you designed :) The Scrim builds a surface between cross-sections, this functionality is clear and guaranteed.


Spoken like true programmers. Nothing wrong with that....but guys I gotta tell yah I've worked in nearly every animation environment on the planet and this type of "debate" goes on and on and on between artists and developers. Both sides have legitimate positions.

Igors: You are absolutely right to declare that Scrim is not a cloth sim. I've said it, you've said it. People, I believe, will understand that. I didn't even bring it up. ;) Uwe did what was natural when seeing the functionality of this plugin. Animatible control wires that manipulate geometry! Hmmm.. I bet I could use this to make cloth. What you're attempting to control is the creative process that animators and artists take in order to complete a task. Is a simulation the best solution as you suggest? No, not always. They are certainly more convenient and might also give you the most realistic look, but, they also have their weaknesses. I've been on projects where I've hand keyed clusters in Maya to fake cloth because it was actually easier than trying to set up a simulation. Simulations aren't always the answer. All the users are looking for Igors is a bit of fuzzy logic. Not everything has to be black or white when it comes to animating.

Artists: Try to place yourselves in the developers shoes. They are writing a specific plugin to accomplish a specific task. When the plugin is marketed and sold, if it does what its intended to do its a good thing...but if we try to promote it like its something else, we run into problems with user expectations. Not everyone has Uwe's skill and capabilities with Rodeo. Users will gripe that they can't accomplish the same thing Uwe has accomplished. Rodeo isn't even available. Therefore we ask you to focus on the product's intended purpose. If you can stretch the plugin to do more, that's great. Tell your friends how you did it...but just realize the differences of philosophies here.

What is the solution? Well the only true way to get around situations like this is to truly examine the desired request from a couple of factors:

1. Is the request truly aligned to the plugin's original intentions?
2. Will the request bring unreasonable production times to implement into the code?
3. Can all users benefit from the request rather than just one?
4. Does the request increase the value of the plugin from a marketing standpoint?

Igors
05-03-2006, 12:45 AM
Hi, Uwe

Thx for prj, d/loading now, we've not noticed the link inside other text

now the fun:
dear igors, i have noticed that the control points have z position values, which, of course, don't have any meaning.
i completle understand that these values are not editable with the graph editor.
can you make them editable via XP? true 3d wires?
in the example above the use of trestle is somewhat limited because it is only operating on a 2d plane. there is no sideway movement.Let's try to be "principal" and see things more globally (why we cannot? :) ). So, from this point of view: do we plan a 3D-editor? No. Cause, at least, it needs direct manipulations in all EI windows. Ok, do we plan a 2D editor? Yes. What do you propose? To add "some 3D-functions to 2D-editor ", right? :) So, what we should answer to user if he asks: "is it 2D or 3D editor"? IMO the normal answer is: "it's 2D editor only. You can deform a plug-in's output or use Path2Line to make 3D contours". Imagine another answer: "it's 2D editor with outside Z editing"(?). This answer immediately initializes a series of new questions (that have not good answers) and a critique (absolute deserved), like: "How I can edit Z ?", "Why there is no any interactive Z-editing?", "How can I find a needed point in a large list of animation channels?" and many, many others. What we should to answer, Uwe?

now let's dream, shall we?
if trestle would operate true 3d and patrick would get his things together and start on rodeo again, then we would be only a few steps away from, at least, fake soft bodys.
Maybe i am talking bull**** here, but i think the potential is here.
Your opinions?Well, IMO soft body is not sooo awful as it looks first :) The fake you propose looks much more complex than a normal soft body simulation with techniques that are not a secret long ago. Of course, we don't want to say that a soft body is "a piece of cake", it's a large work, but.. hey, how it's related with our thread? :)

bronco
05-03-2006, 12:47 AM
whoa, you misunderstood me.
i didn't mean that you should make scrim a cloth simulator. i understand that this will not happen.
all i wanted to point out is that if you give trestle the ability to have z values for the control points there is much more use for it. if it is only accessable through XP, so be it. if it takes to much development time, ok, i understand. there are things that are more important (like shadows).

bronco
05-03-2006, 01:02 AM
"How I can edit Z ?"
Xpressionist, it's build in EIAS

Why there is no any interactive Z-editing?"
because it's main purpose is 2d

"How can I find a needed point in a large list of animation channels?"
like all animation channel values, twirll down the little triangle ;)
have you looked at übershapes animation channels? nothing can beat this!

What we should to answer, Uwe?
my answere would be: it's 2d, with a twist :)
all comes down to this: if it is easy for you to add z values (not directly editable in graph editor), so for heavens sake just do it. it's like an easer egg for XP users.
if it is not so easy, than let it go.
path2line has no control points, so different functionality, different setup.

hey, how it's related with our thread? :)
because it is build with trestle and scrim! as far as i know trestle is the first time to have control over a wire via control points in EIAS. this is nice! this is great! it would be even better in 3d. :)

ok, think about it. do what you think is best for the plugin. i will stop nagging about z values. :)

Igors
05-03-2006, 01:19 AM
Hi, Brian

1. Is the request truly aligned to the plugin's original intentions?
2. Will the request bring unreasonable production times to implement into the code?
3. Can all users benefit from the request rather than just one?
4. Does the request increase the value of the plugin from a marketing standpoint?

Let us answer

#1. No, this idea has nothing in common with plug-in's original intentions

#2. The implementation requires some time, efforts and accuracy (same as any work)

#3. Nobody knows how a program (or its part) is usable if it's not written yet :)

#4. We sure that no

Now we've a question :) We don't know is a proposed replication good or bad, but please explain: WHY it's planned inside Trestle and WHY user can replicate this plug-in only? Why it cannot be applied to ANY group?

Igors
05-03-2006, 02:49 AM
Hi, Uwe
hey Igors, you can find the shadow problem in post #54. with project file.
any news on z values? :)Learned, Raytracer doesn't like non-planar quads. Simply check "Triangulate" in the plug-ins interface

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 03:58 AM
Taking my last post into consideration, we need to talk about Trestle's replication feature.

Here's the situation:

We recognize the value of providing cross section replication to help reduce the labor involved in placing mutiple trestle instances. However, because of EIAS' plugin api, Trestle can not create independant replicants that possess their own individuality. If you create 5 copies of a cross section in Trestle, EIAS will generate 5 cross sections, but those cross sections will be considered a single object.

I have suggested to the Igors that they expand Trestle's replication capabilities to include:

1. Replication in a single direction. (To create rows or columns of duplicates)
2. Replication in two directions. (To create a 2D grid of duplicates)
3. Replication in three directions. (To create a 3D array of duplicates)

I suggest XYZ positional values between duplicates be animatible and be either "uniform" or "exponential/additive" distances apart for each replicant.

Additionally, I wish to add animatible "uniform" and "additive" rotational and scale capabilities to Trestle.

The question has been asked... does this have value and does it meet with the original purpose Trestle was created for?

My response is: Yes...and here's why.

1. Creating rows, columns, or grids of 2D cross sections in a single trestle instance can then be manually duplicated in EI and lofted together with Scrim to create fast and easy repetitive geometry. As in the example of a picket fence, or tiles, or architectural support beams... etc etc etc.

2. Activating surfaces instead of wires will allow Trestle to be combined with a particle engine and unique surface emissions can be obtained especially when the surfaces can be controlled with animation functions.

3. Geometry based lighting grids and arrays can be rapidly made for GI/Radiosity.

4. When adding rotational and scaleable animation controls into the equation, unique and precise forms can be made.

5. Plugin overhead is reduced. One plugin can control one to dozens of replicated items. If individual control over every cross section is required, the user can simply use mutiple instances of Trestle instead.

What do you users think? Stephane, I'd like to hear your take on this. How could you have done your animation test differently if you had the ability to animate position, rotation and scale?

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 04:20 AM
Hi, Brian


Let us answer

#1. No, this idea has nothing in common with plug-in's original intentions

#2. The implementation requires some time, efforts and accuracy (same as any work)

#3. Nobody knows how a program (or its part) is usable if it's not written yet :)

#4. We sure that no

Now we've a question :) We don't know is a proposed replication good or bad, but please explain: WHY it's planned inside Trestle and WHY user can replicate this plug-in only? Why it cannot be applied to ANY group?

Ok.. my turn to answer all of these questions.


1. Is the request truly aligned to the plugin's original intentions?
2. Will the request bring unreasonable production times to implement into the code?
3. Can all users benefit from the request rather than just one?
4. Does the request increase the value of the plugin from a marketing standpoint?

1. Adding z position control to Trestle does meet with the plugin's original intentions. Trestle is designed to create wires for lofting and surfaces for extruding. Control points provide the means to introduce animation into the equation. If a control point can not be animated in the Z position, you ulimately limit the animation capabilities of the plugin. So Trestle doesn't permit 3 dimensional positioning of control points in the plugin interface.. so what.. who's to say it wont in the future. I agree with you Igors that drawing curves in the Host's orthographic windows will be the most ideal... but that opportunity may never happen. Uwe is correct. This is the first time control points can be moved within EI and the users have been begging for this for years. What's the harm of including the capability to animate a control point in Z space. Its like saying here's a car for you to drive, but you can only drive in reverse. If Xpressionist can tap into control point's Z channel, then we should give them the opportunity to exploit it.

2. From you answer it doesn't sound like it would take a huge effort to impliment access to the Z channel. Its ok right now that Trestle's editor can't draw in the Z plane... that could change..

3. Well... of course. We don't know how users will use the plugin.. but shouldn't we give them the ability to really take advantage of it? If its just a small implementation.. what harm is it?

4. Will it increase marketability? Well.. z channel point control isn't a HUGE buzz word.. but I think the lack of that ability will limit the program more. Users tend to focus on the obvious exclusions. When 6.5r3 came out.. did I say cool its perfect.. no I stated, "Where the heck is FBX export?" To me that was an obvious exclusion. Seemed strange NOT to include it. We're just talking about a z channel...

As for you question about replicating in Trestle.

1. There are no step, repeat, and duplicate controls in the host program.

2. Replicating within the plugin reduces overhead. With EI we tend to suffer from the "Just use another plugin" to solve limitations within the Host program. Excessive use of live plugins means more computational overhead. My training has always been (as a previs artist) use the most efficient and effective means of achieve a desired effect without bogging down the system. Huge number of plugin instances or using nested plugins reduces effeciencies and EIAS plugin API is taxed enough as it is.

3. I would love it if EITG would provide more advanced replication calls to achieve step and repeat duplication, but it doesn't have it. Since we are creating a new plugin based modeling solution, we need to provide that functionality to the user in the best way we can. Since Trestle is acting as our 2D hub for all other future modeling plugins... replicate functions should be considered absolutely necessary. The only caveat we have right now is: If you need individual control over every duplicated object, you're going to have to use mulitiple hand placed copies of Trestle to achieve the desired results. At least this way, the user has an option.

bronco
05-03-2006, 04:22 AM
additional replication features sound very good to me. i can see some use for this.


on a different note:

it seems that i can't get rid of this pattern, regardless of the settings in scrim:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/pattern.jpg

i tried uniform and adaptive up to 100, triangulated or not, doesn't matter.

Project File (http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Project_TS05.zip)

uwe

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 04:27 AM
I'm curious Uwe...export the model...and bring it back in via Transporter and reset the normals. If the imported geometry renders properly after being "reset" in transporter, then we still have some normals issues in Scrim.

bronco
05-03-2006, 04:53 AM
doesn't make any differents.
i think its just the way straight lines (trestle), b-splines (scrim) and diagonal wave come together.
this brought up another issue:

combinig these values:

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/settings01.jpg

result:

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/position.jpg

same settings with U mode indeces:

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/indeces.jpg

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 05:19 AM
Igors and Uwe...

I see by the screen capture that the plugin reads 1.0b3 up at the top of frame...though b4 has been seeded to the beta team. Is it possible an error was made? The beta 4 plug I distributed definitely improved artifacting problems.. just wanna make sure we don't have a mismatch going on.

bronco
05-03-2006, 06:03 AM
i checked again, this is the updated beta4 you send out. the first beta4 wasn't woking. i guess the igors simply forgot to change the version on fixing it.

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 06:33 AM
Well...I'll have them check just in case.

Hiddenman.fr
05-03-2006, 08:08 AM
Brian, my point of view on plug-ins is very clear. I use them all the time to add some fast models to images or animations, to make special effects, to tweak things, ... PlacerDeposit is the plug I have used the much and I can say that it has been used in 90% of my work, but it is also responsible of 90% of my frustrations. Indeed, you only can use the animated functions which have been included in it, so the animation part of the plug is really limited. The advantage of Tresle is its animations capabilities. Combined with other plugs, it rocks. But I think that all which can be modified by the user in the plug-ins windows should be available to animation channels, even the resolution control in Scrim. A plug-in must do what it has been created for but some time just a little capability added to it and it is a new door you are opening for other plug-ins access. The secret lies in combining plugs. By limiting plug-ins you are also limiting user creation and a plug-in should be designed for new users but also for pro ones.

Igors
05-03-2006, 02:20 PM
i checked again, this is the updated beta4 you send out. the first beta4 wasn't woking. i guess the igors simply forgot to change the version on fixing it.

Yes, it's Igors' fault, sorry for this confusion

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 04:55 PM
Brian, my point of view on plug-ins is very clear. I use them all the time to add some fast models to images or animations, to make special effects, to tweak things, ... PlacerDeposit is the plug I have used the much and I can say that it has been used in 90% of my work, but it is also responsible of 90% of my frustrations. Indeed, you only can use the animated functions which have been included in it, so the animation part of the plug is really limited. The advantage of Tresle is its animations capabilities. Combined with other plugs, it rocks. But I think that all which can be modified by the user in the plug-ins windows should be available to animation channels, even the resolution control in Scrim. A plug-in must do what it has been created for but some time just a little capability added to it and it is a new door you are opening for other plug-ins access. The secret lies in combining plugs. By limiting plug-ins you are also limiting user creation and a plug-in should be designed for new users but also for pro ones.

I agree. Coordinated effort between plugins is very important. However, there must be a fine balance between good coordination and unnecessary over use. EI's plugin API can be somewhat fickle when attempting intercommunication between plugins. Its especially prevalent in a couple of NL's plugins. If the proper parenting order isn't achieved, some of NL's plugins will fail to communicate with each other.

Likewise with nestling several plugins under Encage. After a while, the model will fail to update or even disappear unless you go in and force the plugin to regenerate. Real time interactivity stops. Depending on what combination of things you do...it can become mildly annoying.

I can understand a programmer's point of view of not wanting to duplicate features throughout a number of different plugins.. but without some sort of overlap of features, some users are left out in the cold because they either don't possess the right combination of plugins or the single plugin just fails to possess the exact feature to get the job done right.

Igors
05-03-2006, 05:36 PM
Hi, Brian
3. Geometry based lighting grids and arrays can be rapidly made for GI/Radiosity. We don't understand this sentence, please explain, it can be important

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 05:51 PM
Hi, Brian
We don't understand this sentence, please explain, it can be important

Its a simple task. But I've noticed a lot of times that people using Radiosity/GI will use geometry to act as a lighting source rather than using regular EI lights themselves. In photography, photographers commonly use light boxes and grids of lights to illuminate an object. Right now, we have a great cheat with Domus... we even have Lightrig to ultilize EI lights in a grid like fashion.. this feature request for Trestle would complete the lighting possibilities by creating custom shaped 2D surfaces, as drawn by the user, that could be arranged in row, grid or array like order, deformed with deformers, and placed within the scene to act as either a lighting source or even as a reflection source for reflective items.

Custom shaped, 2D light pannels, that can be placed in a row, grid, or array, that can be affected by deformers, and have their position, rotation, and scale animated... hmm.. sounds tasty to me.

Now imagine that same scenario.. but apply it to surface emission particle systems... cool

Hiddenman.fr
05-03-2006, 05:57 PM
Don't know if it is just me but I think the Snap to Grid option in Trestle should be activated when you first open the window. And Igors (and others) what are you thinking about an half darker horizontal line added to the graph editor?

Could the Scrim plug-in have a check box to automatically close a loft between two Trestles and by closing I don't speak about the actual Close Path option, I speak about an End Caps one?

Igors
05-03-2006, 06:20 PM
Hi, Brian
Taking my last post into consideration, we need to talk about Trestle's replication feature.Our opinion is: a replication plug-in is quite possible, but we are fully sure: it should be a normal standalone plug-in, not a set of Trestle options. Our reasons are:

1. We've read your recent posts several times, but, sorry, Brian, for us it's still not clear why it can be applied to Trestle only, not for any group in project. Should a potential replicator know anything from what's going inside Trestle? Looks like absolute not. We understand a deficite of many things inside EI, that's why user wants to have more and more features in one product. But technically "2 plug-ins in one body" always comes to crash, and at the end we would see no one normal plug-in, but a strange "hybrid" that has nothing to answer for a classic user's question "What does your plug-in do exactly?"

2. IMO your proposed replication features are more "sketches", not a "final list". For example: Create 1D/2D/3D arrays? Not a big problem to implement. Same as to add any number of animation channels. But, unfortuinately, it does not mean that user can select an instance in EI windows (for EI it's always one group). So, how it would be usable - that's absolute not clear. And IMO the best check would be to write a draft plug-in and see.

Another one: need some "variability" for instances placement, same as for instances themselves. And it's already fully clear: that's much more than 1-2 options only. And no one of them is clear up to now.

Summary: in fact the proposed replication is an attempt to start another one new plug-in.
It can be a good or bad idea - we don't know yet. But we know very well: mixing all things together makes impossible any progress. Let's call things with their names, let's discuss replication aspect separately, maybe even in a separated thread. We would be happy to support such discussion (we've a little experience in replication area)

Igors
05-03-2006, 06:22 PM
Hi, Stephane
And Igors (and others) what are you thinking about an half darker horizontal line added to the graph editor?Added today morning (same as Z-coordinate control :) )

Igors
05-03-2006, 06:27 PM
Hi, Brian
Custom shaped, 2D light pannels, that can be placed in a row, grid, or array, that can be affected by deformers, and have their position, rotation, and scale animated... Aha, clear now - for lights placement. Thanks

Igors
05-03-2006, 06:54 PM
Hi, Uwe
it seems that i can't get rid of this pattern, regardless of the settings in scrim:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/pattern.jpg

Clear now (after several hours of learning :)) . It's not a bug, but a problem that can be named as a "deficit (or missing) of U-subdivision". Just set all steps/substeps to zero in Scrim's interface. Turn triangulation OFF. Now in your prj you see enough large quads. The vertices normals are calculated based on both: U and V directions. In Scrim you can smooth V. But not U. Open Trestle graph and imagine a some red arrow for each graph point - its normal U vector, perpendicular to graph's line direction. If a difference between these normals is big enough, then phong shading produces artifacts. And V-subdivide cannot help cause for graph view it works exactly as Z-changing you proposed :)

Looks like "subdivide U" should be added to Scrim, it's not realistic to require from user to make graph enough smooth each time a point is moved

P.S. How about to change "beta-models" a little? (just something other than fabric planes :) )

Vizfizz
05-03-2006, 07:19 PM
1. We've read your recent posts several times, but, sorry, Brian, for us it's still not clear why it can be applied to Trestle only, not for any group in project. Should a potential replicator know anything from what's going inside Trestle? Looks like absolute not. We understand a deficite of many things inside EI, that's why user wants to have more and more features in one product. But technically "2 plug-ins in one body" always comes to crash, and at the end we would see no one normal plug-in, but a strange "hybrid" that has nothing to answer for a classic user's question "What does your plug-in do exactly?"

2. IMO your proposed replication features are more "sketches", not a "final list". For example: Create 1D/2D/3D arrays? Not a big problem to implement. Same as to add any number of animation channels. But, unfortuinately, it does not mean that user can select an instance in EI windows (for EI it's always one group). So, how it would be usable - that's absolute not clear. And IMO the best check would be to write a draft plug-in and see.

Another one: need some "variability" for instances placement, same as for instances themselves. And it's already fully clear: that's much more than 1-2 options only. And no one of them is clear up to now.

Summary: in fact the proposed replication is an attempt to start another one new plug-in.
It can be a good or bad idea - we don't know yet. But we know very well: mixing all things together makes impossible any progress. Let's call things with their names, let's discuss replication aspect separately, maybe even in a separated thread. We would be happy to support such discussion (we've a little experience in replication area)

#1. I'm not suggesting that Trestle be the only source of replication for objects within EIAS. Obviously, the correct answer would be:

- The host program should impliment a step and repeat duplication feature.

- EIAS plugin API should be capable of producing individual entities rather than lumping everything into a group.

However... that being said we must work with what we have. Lets take it to the lowest common denominator for Trestle's main function. Creating wires to loft between. Providing step and repeat duplication functions within Trestle is important for the purpose of creating repetitive geometry. It does not matter that the resulting repetitive instances are lumped into a single group for this purpose. Creating a row or grid of 2D objects in a single Trestle call can then be manually duplicated and positioned in EI and lofted between with Scrim. I've given several instances of how this can be used..especially for architectural examples. Beams, slats, rivets, tiles, flooring, fences, anything that requires multiple placements. EI's limitation of grouping all the instances into a single group actually becomes beneficial because 1 Trestle call can create dozens of objects. 2 Trestle calls of the same thing can create a loft, and 3 Trestle calls can create a loft and a front or back cap.. now imagine if you had to do this manually! If a fence row had to be created, you would need 4 trestle calls for each post! 2 to loft and 2 to cap. That adds up!

I completely agree with you that we should produce a separate duplicator that can benefit all objects within EIAS. However just realize that it means more overhead. Why use a plugin to duplicate dozens of other plugins (Trestle) when you don't need it!

Trestle is going to be revolutionary to EIAS users. I think its absolutely essential to put some for replication function within the plugin for both the purpose of geometry generation and animation functions. Trust me, trust me, trust me.. it will be well utilized. And no connecting lines!

#2. If a user requires individual control over a single object then the user will cease using the internal duplicate functions within Trestle and either:

- Duplicate and place the instance by hand.
- Use Placer Deposit.
- Use Igor's new step and repeat plugin that we will have to dream up.

But by doing so...the user must realize that creating a hundred copies of Trestle is going to create a performance hit...and what happens if the user desires to propogate several individual Trestle calls and then wants to change the shape of the 2D form and have that change modify all of the other Trestle calls. Unless that's the point of your Master/Slave function.. he can't do it.

The replication calls I'm asking for within Trestle make sense. They do not solve every problem. That's ok. Variation could be the great marketing point for an upcoming duplicator plugin. But given the extra bonuses of using replication in Trestle for light placement, particle surface emissions, and geometry creation.. it seems like an obvious inclusion to the toolset.

bronco
05-04-2006, 10:22 AM
Hi, Uwe
Clear now (after several hours of learning :)) . It's not a bug, but a problem that can be named as a "deficit (or missing) of U-subdivision". Just set all steps/substeps to zero in Scrim's interface. Turn triangulation OFF. Now in your prj you see enough large quads. The vertices normals are calculated based on both: U and V directions. In Scrim you can smooth V. But not U. Open Trestle graph and imagine a some red arrow for each graph point - its normal U vector, perpendicular to graph's line direction. If a difference between these normals is big enough, then phong shading produces artifacts. And V-subdivide cannot help cause for graph view it works exactly as Z-changing you proposed :)

Looks like "subdivide U" should be added to Scrim, it's not realistic to require from user to make graph enough smooth each time a point is moved

that would be cool. i guess real beziers, nurbs or b-splines are out of question for version 1.0. but some subdivision between control-points would make a huge differents.
only problem i see is that simple averaging between control points can alter the wire/scrim surface in unwanted ways.
but i would say that is something the user/artist should consider when using that feature.

did i understnad you correct that z-value editing will be posible? great news! thank you!!!


P.S. How about to change "beta-models" a little? (just something other than fabric planes :) )

i know, i know. but i wanted to understand the ins and outs of the plugins first. i usually start very simple. next thing will be more pleasent, promised! :)

Igors
05-04-2006, 12:19 PM
Hi, Uwe
that would be cool. i guess real beziers, nurbs or b-splines are out of question for version 1.0. but some subdivision between control-points would make a huge differents.Splines is the first in list of Trestle 2.0 features. But now we want to add a U-splines to Scrim, and there is no any contradiction here: the Scrim is intended to work with any appropriate child groups, not with Trestles only
only problem i see is that simple averaging between control points can alter the wire/scrim surface in unwanted ways. Splines and linear interpolation are different things, sure :)
did i understnad you correct that z-value editing will be posible? great news! thank you!!!Yes, but it's undocumented feature (for advanced users only :) )

Igors
05-04-2006, 12:47 PM
Hi, Brian
I think its absolutely essential to put some for replication function within the plugin for both the purpose of geometry generation and animation functions.
Please "finalize" the list of options/parameters for replication in Trestle.

1. We propose:
- Series X (count, space)
- Series Y (count, space)
- Series Z (count, space)

(no "connection lines")

We see no problems to add them to the Trestle, it's usable no matter it can be done with others ways/tools.

2. Animation channels for replicated copies. What channels do you want to see? Give us a list please. Also count the following notes:

NOTE 1: EI plug-in can rebuild its animation channels, BUT it ultimately requires an opening of plug-in's interface.

NOTE 2: Any changing of replication count kills all animation of previously replicated instances.

NOTE 3: Replicated instances cannot be selected interactively in EI windows. To change their scales etc. user should go to animation channels list and rely on channel's name (like "Instance 2")

NOTE 4: Please think carefully do you really need such feature that, in our opinion, would bring more problems/misunderstanding, not benefit. We never shared an opinion "more channels = better"

Vizfizz
05-04-2006, 05:47 PM
Hi, Brian

Please "finalize" the list of options/parameters for replication in Trestle.

1. We propose:
- Series X (count, space)
- Series Y (count, space)
- Series Z (count, space)

(no "connection lines")

We see no problems to add them to the Trestle, it's usable no matter it can be done with others ways/tools.

2. Animation channels for replicated copies. What channels do you want to see? Give us a list please. Also count the following notes:

NOTE 1: EI plug-in can rebuild its animation channels, BUT it ultimately requires an opening of plug-in's interface.

NOTE 2: Any changing of replication count kills all animation of previously replicated instances.

NOTE 3: Replicated instances cannot be selected interactively in EI windows. To change their scales etc. user should go to animation channels list and rely on channel's name (like "Instance 2")

NOTE 4: Please think carefully do you really need such feature that, in our opinion, would bring more problems/misunderstanding, not benefit. We never shared an opinion "more channels = better"

1. Position:

- Series X,Y,Z (count,space) is good. Add a checkbox to allow either absolute spacing or relative spacing.

- Space value should be an animation channel.

- Add a checkbox for "Generate per instance position channels" causing Trestle to generate X,Y,Z position channels for every instance created and deactivating the universal spacing animation channel. This checkbox will help keep the huge channel list down to the minimum if per instance position channels are not required.


2. Rotation:

- Series X,Y,Z rotation should be added. Add a checkbox to allow either absolute or relative rotation between instances upon initial creation.

- Provide a single universal X,Y,Z rotation animation channel that will rotate all duplicates at their local centers by the same amount. This channel controls all instances at once.

- Provide a check box called "Generate per Instance rotation channels" which will cause Trestle to generate x,y,z rotation channels for every instance created and deactivate universal rotational control.

3. Scale:

- Series X,Y,Z scaling should be added. Add a checkbox to allow either absolute or relative scaling between instances upon initial creation.

- Provide a single universal X,Y,Z scaling animation channel that will scale all dupliccates at their local centers by the same amount. This channel controls all instances at once.

- Provide a check box called "Generate per instance scale channels" which will cause Trestle to generate x,y,z scale channels for every instance created and deactivate universal scale control.

I believe users will realize the limitation of altering the number of duplications will regenerate and "erase" any previous animation channels. They have to deal with the same limitation with the number of control points for the cross section.

Having these additional position, rotation, and scale controls for duplicates will provide yet another bonus to those who use XP.

A seperate duplicator plugin is still worth exploring for non Trestle users.

Igors
05-04-2006, 06:23 PM
Hi, Brian

We've read your list of proposed features. It can be formulated as: create channels (global for all instances, and local per each instance) for: offsets, scales and rotations. Your propositions are clear. Please confirm this list is FINAL for Trestle 1.0. If ok, requested tons of channels arrive this Monday :)

Vizfizz
05-04-2006, 07:34 PM
Hi, Brian

We've read your list of proposed features. It can be formulated as: create channels (global for all instances, and local per each instance) for: offsets, scales and rotations. Your propositions are clear. Please confirm this list is FINAL for Trestle 1.0. If ok, requested tons of channels arrive this Monday :)

Well.. as far as replication goes..it should be. I'd like to look at Trestle 1.0b2 before saying the list of features is "complete". Need to see how some of your other tools are being implimented.

I would probably say that it would be nice to have a true line segment drawing tool mode in addition to the current chain of points method.. but that could potentially wait until v2.

Beta team? Any other ideas?

bronco
05-05-2006, 12:04 AM
the list looks fine to me. off hand i can't think of any other useful, easy to implement animation channels that are missing.
of course, that may change once i use the new features.

Igors
05-05-2006, 08:06 AM
Hi, Brian
Well.. as far as replication goes..it should be. I'd like to look at Trestle 1.0b2 before saying the list of features is "complete". Need to see how some of your other tools are being implimented.

Sorry for our "error in formula". Of course, we are talking about "final list of replication features". Ok, implementing...

Hiddenman.fr
05-05-2006, 08:33 AM
Hey Igors, I don't know if it is too late but it seems to me that the Stars Tool should remember your parameters. Indeed, when you want to create a star you aren't sure at the first time the form you want, so you have to make lots of tests to find the right one. The problem now is that you must remember all your last parameters to make some changes, and re-enter them all, with some little changes, to update your star. It would be could to only change the parameter you want, no more 4 parameters to remember and put in the good boxes. Thanks.

Hiddenman.fr
05-05-2006, 08:45 AM
The last problem for me on Trestle is the fact that when you scale the window, the graph editor deforms itself. We should be able to scale it to raise the graph editor resolution without deforming it. Indeed It should be constraint to scale horizontally and vertically at the same time and by the same proportions. Thanks.

Igors
05-05-2006, 09:39 AM
Hi, Stephane
Hey Igors, I don't know if it is too late but it seems to me that the Stars Tool should remember your parameters. Indeed, when you want to create a star you aren't sure at the first time the form you want, so you have to make lots of tests to find the right one. The problem now is that you must remember all your last parameters to make some changes, and re-enter them all, with some little changes, to update your star. It would be could to only change the parameter you want, no more 4 parameters to remember and put in the good boxes. Thanks.
The last problem for me on Trestle is the fact that when you scale the window, the graph editor deforms itself. We should be able to scale it to raise the graph editor resolution without deforming it. Indeed It should be constraint to scale horizontally and vertically at the same time and by the same proportions. Thanks.
Both are rational requests. Accepted. We propose: resizing window with pressed Alt key saves graph proportions 1:1

Hiddenman.fr
05-05-2006, 10:21 AM
The QuickTime way seems more convenient to me. The proportional scale should be the basic way to resize the graph editor and add (press) a key (SHIFT on QuickTime, ALT if you like) to resize the window in a none proportional way. Betateam?

halfworld
05-05-2006, 11:04 AM
I'd welcome that :)

The replecator features appear to have been nailed and they are exactly what I want to see. So far as drawing is concerned, I still feel that the 'insert point' method is slightly un-natural... Perhaps down the line (v2) we could get a chain system? First things first though.

Ian

Igors
05-05-2006, 11:13 AM
The QuickTime way seems more convenient to me. The proportional scale should be the basic way to resize the graph editor and add (press) a key (SHIFT on QuickTime, ALT if you like) to resize the window in a none proportional way. Betateam?Ok, done in QT style

halfworld
05-05-2006, 11:17 AM
I had a little wrestling match with Trestle and Scrim this morning ;)

I think the motion designers amongst us are gonna love these tools!

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/tres-pre.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/scrimntrestlewretsle.mov

Ian

Vizfizz
05-05-2006, 05:23 PM
Neato...

Do more

halfworld
05-05-2006, 05:27 PM
Yes sir, sorry sir ;)

Kinda waiting for b2 now though (as the Igors have changed so much).

Anyhoo, I'll do some more movies over the weekend.

Igors
05-06-2006, 11:29 AM
Anyhoo, I'll do some more movies over the weekend.Now "abstract" or "surrealistic" tendention is fully dominated in beta-testers' images/movies we seen. More realism, please

Vizfizz
05-07-2006, 07:15 PM
Beta team.....lets focus on showing some hard surface models. Lots can be created with lofting tools. Additional materials are being sent to help you out. :)

Igors
05-07-2006, 10:42 PM
Hi, gentlemen

Trestle beta 2 is here

--------------

Trestle b2 fundamental features:

1. Slaves & Masters
2. Replication
3. UV's

------------------------

Trestle b2 misc. features and fixed bugs:

1. Fixed bug in complex contours polygonization
2. window resizing is changed (Stephane)
3. Star dialog remembers previous settings (Stephane)
4. Z-coordinates of graph points are available for editing in Project
Window (Uwe)
5. Uniformed/Adaptive option is added to "Insert Points" tool
---------------

Known bugs and problems:

1. "Absolute" rotation, scale and position has no effect yet
2. Scrim (beta 4) does not "understand" UV's yet
2. Scrim (beta 4) does not "understand" replicated instances yet
(need to add extra options to Scrim)

--------------

Our plans are to concentrate on plug-in's stability and bugs finding/fixing.

bronco
05-07-2006, 11:46 PM
little test, don't know if this qualifies for hard surfaces... :)

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_banana.jpg

edit: great work so far, Igors!
EIAS crashed once for me, but i can't reproduce it, so no project file this time.

Jens C. Möller
05-09-2006, 03:08 PM
I had a little wrestling match with Trestle and Scrim this morning ;)

I think the motion designers amongst us are gonna love these tools!

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/tres-pre.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/scrimntrestlewretsle.mov

Ian

Wow! Exactly what I need - how did you do that? Maybe I could also apply for the beta? Brian?

Greetings from ramjac Software

Jens

Vizfizz
05-10-2006, 01:50 AM
Hi Jens...

That was some of Ian's doings. I'll let him explain his process. However, generally speaking, it shouldn't be to hard to reproduce. He could be deforming the position of the individual Trestle wire locations, thus twisting the resulting surface of geometry..but I'll let him give us the run down.

As for beta testing, I'll get in touch with the Igors. We are staffed up right now, however, your experience with Xpressionist would go a long way to helping us out on certain "issues" that we talked about earlier.

Vizfizz
05-10-2006, 04:43 AM
Ok...

One of the requests I had for replication was to allow duplicated instances of Trestle to loft between one another. Right now, if you repeat a closed shape, Scrim will immediately think its supposed to loft between the them. The only method that works is to replicate in the Z direction.

Right now, repeat/mirror still produces a connecting line between each object. I understand why this is being done and why closed shapes are not effective with this tool, but for Replicate, closed shapes should be supported and treated like independant objects to Scrim, despite being grouped as one object in EI.

One of the major points of replication is to permit lofting between replicated Trestle objects. See the examples below. What we should see in image 3 is three tubes... instead Scrim tries to loft between the first 3 wires horizontally along the X axis and then back to the next 3. There is very little value, from a geometry generation perspective, for replication if lofting between 2 replicated instances of Trestle doesn't work.

Igors
05-10-2006, 09:48 AM
Hi, Brian
One of the major points of replication is to permit lofting between replicated Trestle objects. See the examples below. What we should see in image 3 is three tubes... instead Scrim tries to loft between the first 3 wires horizontally along the X axis and then back to the next 3. There is very little value, from a geometry generation perspective, for replication if lofting between 2 replicated instances of Trestle doesn't work.Scrim beta 5 (preparing to send) has a new option to work with child groups with 2 and more polylines. The choice is:

- process as Error (multi-lines groups are disabled)
- process as Sequence (as it works now)
- process as Array (works as you want)

Hiddenman.fr
05-10-2006, 11:52 AM
Hi Igors, I have a question for you : Why the Star tool is limited to 60 points? It prevents me to model what I wanted to test. Any possibility to raise that number?
Thanks.

Igors
05-10-2006, 12:18 PM
Hi, Stephane
Hi Igors, I have a question for you : Why the Star tool is limited to 60 points? It prevents me to model what I wanted to test. Any possibility to raise that number?
Thanks.No problems, will be increased up to 360 in next build

Hiddenman.fr
05-10-2006, 12:30 PM
Would it be possible to add a round tool in the Graph Editor, for example to round a star a bit after created it, to round the node?

Igors
05-10-2006, 01:06 PM
Hi, StephaneWould it be possible to add a round tool in the Graph Editor, for example to round a star a bit after created it, to round the node?We understand your request, but we think it should be solved with splines in v2

Hiddenman.fr
05-10-2006, 01:58 PM
I was knowing the answer before posting and understand you. Here is a test I am working on. Do you know how to prevent the visible arrows to appear. I have tried to raise the V options but it breaks my model and the U options smooth angle but it doesn't work cause the model becomes too smooth.

http://guetapens.wip.free.fr/images/trestle_03.jpg

Thanks

bronco
05-10-2006, 02:01 PM
rounding would be great, but splines in v2 would be even better.

saying this, this little WIP would greatly benefit from splines:

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car01.jpg

as you can see, there are some shading problems, some of them are already resolved with better control-point placment, but there are still some spots that won't go away.
one of them is the tire reflecting on the hood. shouldn't be there.
all trestle and scrim, btw. i know that the tires and rims would be far better handled by mr. revolver, but scrim does also a nice job on those.

edit: of course, the goal of this little test is a complete car modeled only with trestle and scrim inside EIAS, woooha!

edit02: some things i noticed working on this:
clicking apply sometimes changes the graph scale in trestle, another click on apply and everythings back to normal. this is random.
random number appear in the replication values.
when duplicating someting like this:

scrimA
trestle01a <- Master
trestle02a <- Slaves
trestle03a

you get something like this:

scrimA
trestle01a <- Master of A and B
trestle02a <- Slaves
trestle03a

scrimB
trestle01b <- Master, but no children
trestle02b <- Slaves of trestle01a, NOT b
trestle03b

for better understanding i named them A and B.

halfworld
05-10-2006, 02:48 PM
Stephane is right on the money, I have had the same problem he describes (geometry bulging).

I also have some other issues i'll bring to light when I remember to bring the screenshots into work with me :)

Also, how about a way to input an exact scale value?
Ian

PS. Jens, it was very simple, I made a star shape, replicated it in Z, used a twist deform to ... well.. twist it, and then used a large rotating twist deform to animate the object.

bronco
05-10-2006, 07:06 PM
update:

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_rim.jpg

i have to say, there seems very little you can't model with trestle and scrim. sure, there are limitations, but it is really great to model in EIAS. easy and fast.

Vizfizz
05-10-2006, 07:46 PM
Scrim Beta 5 has been seeded to the beta testers.

Vizfizz
05-10-2006, 08:01 PM
Igors..

Great job on Scrim beta 5. Looks very promising and featured filled.

Igors
05-10-2006, 08:20 PM
Hi, gentlemen
Sorry for delay, all day we've internet probs, now connection is restored but mail doesn't :sad: work

Scrim beta 5 features:
- processing arrays of lofted shapes for multi-line child groups

- the plug-in can use UV's of its child groups

- specific scales U/V are added

- U-subdivision is added to make automatically a smooth curve from rough
source poly-line with several points only

Our plans are to concentrate on plug-in's stability and
bugs finding/fixing. Writing more in next post..

sacslacker
05-10-2006, 08:46 PM
Sweet! Things are really looking good.

If you don't mind, I have another feature request for trestle. I hope you don't mind the suggestion but I think it'd be really nice to be able to import an image into the Trestle plugin viewport so you could use that image as reference to model against. If this already exists, please excuse me, but I couldn't find a way to do this.

Anyway, I'm excited to use the new updates!

sacslacker
05-10-2006, 08:51 PM
Ewe, that is really looking good man! If you have time and don't mind, could you share a little bit of how you set up that tire model in Trestle. I tried a tire rim and ran into a few issues that your image seems to resolve. Particularly where the rim "spokes" meet the rim. Yours just blend so nicely.

Oh and by issues, I mean issues with my brain not grasping the concept of how to do this properly, not issues with Trestle which seems to be extremely stable for any beta I've used! =)

Great stuff guys!

Igors
05-10-2006, 09:01 PM
Hi, Stephane, Uwe

Let's consider shading artifacts you wrote. As we wrote in past, the vertices normals have absolute priority for any model plug-in. A question like "fix normals bugs or nope" cannot be discussed, all v-normals related problems should be fixed up to full, whole and deep satisfaction. So:

1. Re-check your prjs with beta5

2. Please start your shading problems reports with image AND prj (minimized as possible), this way is simpler and faster

3. Let's back to artifact Uwe showed (we answered #92). Scrim beta 5 has a promised U-subdivide, but the artifact is still here. Let's consider details: to create a smooth curve an artist intuitively adds more and more points in graph editor. However, normals to such curve are not near so smooth as to splined one. The normals' jittering, produced by manual points placement, is emphasized by the phong specular model, so we see what we see. Note that other tools (Encage, re-import etc.) also don't create smooth normals to this model.

Solution: do not add extra points just to make your curve(s) more smoothed. Use U-subdivide that inserts such points automatically

bronco
05-10-2006, 09:08 PM
now we are talking, beta5 rocks! great work, igors.

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car02.jpg

the problems that are still in there are just not clean enough work from my side.

for the rims, just take a look at the project: ;)

RIMS PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_Rim.zip)

have fun!

Igors
05-10-2006, 09:10 PM
Hi, Uwe
clicking apply sometimes changes the graph scale in trestle, another click on apply and everythings back to normal. this is random.
random number appear in the replication values.Known bug, still fixing..

when duplicating someting like this:

scrimA
trestle01a <- Master
trestle02a <- Slaves
trestle03a

you get something like this:

scrimA
trestle01a <- Master of A and B
trestle02a <- Slaves
trestle03a

scrimB
trestle01b <- Master, but no children
trestle02b <- Slaves of trestle01a, NOT b
trestle03b

for better understanding i named them A and B.Hmm.. yes, and draft doc even has a picture illustrates this :) That's we cannot fix cause there is no any info about what's duplicated: a block of plug-ins or just group by group. Not a big problem we hope

bronco
05-10-2006, 09:12 PM
no, it's no big deal. and yeah, i am not much of a manual user :)

Igors
05-10-2006, 10:17 PM
Hi, Brian S.
If you don't mind, I have another feature request for trestle. I hope you don't mind the suggestion but I think it'd be really nice to be able to import an image into the Trestle plugin viewport so you could use that image as reference to model against. If this already exists, please excuse me, but I couldn't find a way to do this.No, it doesn't exist yet, maybe it will be in v2, maybe no. This one is really big: images loading, scaling, offsetting, colorizing etc. etc.

Vizfizz
05-10-2006, 10:52 PM
ARGH!!! My dual 2.5 G5 decided to die. Had to take it into the Apple store for repairs. Initial tests show motherboard and processor failure. Not now, not now, not now!!!

Hmmm.. maybe they will replace it with a quad proc mac. ;)

sacslacker
05-11-2006, 04:54 AM
That totally sucks! Hope you recover quickly and get a better box to boot!

halfworld
05-11-2006, 11:24 AM
So, array doesn't work as I'd expect it to....

Or am I missing something? Can you manually input the nth frame?

Igors
05-11-2006, 12:57 PM
So, array doesn't work as I'd expect it to....

Or am I missing something? Can you manually input the nth frame?

1. "Loft array" works between 2 (and more) instances of Trestle that are 2D arrays (not inside 3D array of a single Trestle)

2. Please start your shading problems reports with image AND prj (minimized as possible), this way is simpler and faster

Vizfizz
05-11-2006, 02:31 PM
So, array doesn't work as I'd expect it to....

Or am I missing something? Can you manually input the nth frame?


Yup..it can do this now..

Thanks for the array loft Igors!

halfworld
05-11-2006, 02:55 PM
It's not hard surface realism, but I'm posting it anyway because it's cool (apparently ;)

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/scrim3.mov

Ian

FelixCat
05-11-2006, 04:35 PM
Cool, Ian. I can´t understand how you do this, but it´s very impressive and looks beautiful. I disagree with the Igors; this aplications of the plug are very appealing too! for me at last... nice!!

FelixCat

bronco
05-11-2006, 07:30 PM
very, very nice Ian!!!
looks like trapcode shine is involved, right?
great plugin, btw.

halfworld
05-11-2006, 10:01 PM
Without trying to go off topic, yes, I did use Shine, It has unfortunatly become one of those plug-in effects you can instantly recognise (I see shine on TV so much!). I had edge outlines turned one to give it the inside out look.
I love all the trapcode plugs, and as I've said to Brian, I see Trestle as being Echospace for EI, amongst other things. This will be huge for motion designers.

More to come! I've brought audio/video into the equasion for my next one...
Ian

Igors
05-11-2006, 10:27 PM
It's not hard surface realism, but I'm posting it anyway because it's cool (apparently ;)

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/scrim3.mov

IanCool this or nope - that's not our affair to judge. But this movie doesn't answer for questions sorta "what this plug-in can/cannot do", and "how can I rely on this plug-in in my work" - be sure each romantic user thinks about this too :)

bronco
05-12-2006, 10:04 AM
hi,
two little things:
1. i can't stress out enough how cool non-modal windows would be for trestle.
as you know i try to model a car with trestle and scrim. the process is to first lay out some rough trestle wires, add scrim and then fine-tune the control-points. it really bugs me to always close the plugin window to check the flow of the surface from different directions.

2. can you add a shortcut to zooming in trestle? like the standart ctrl-spacebar? don't know how often i tried to use this without effect.

Hiddenman.fr
05-12-2006, 10:13 AM
I totally second that! Indeed Trestle and Scrim have Apply buttons which work as update ones. So preventing to close the window should be great.

Igors
05-12-2006, 03:52 PM
Hi, Uwe, Stephane

Note: Scrim child groups can be reordered in project window (without making one a child of another). It requires a "precisious" dragging and result isn't re-generated automatically, but it works.

2. can you add a shortcut to zooming in trestle? like the standart ctrl-spacebar? don't know how often i tried to use this without effect.Please specify concrete keys and a short, but concrete description of their functionality


1. i can't stress out enough how cool non-modal windows would be for trestle.
as you know i try to model a car with trestle and scrim. the process is to first lay out some rough trestle wires, add scrim and then fine-tune the control-points. it really bugs me to always close the plugin window to check the flow of the surface from different directions.I totally second that! Indeed Trestle and Scrim have Apply buttons which work as update ones. So preventing to close the window should be great.There are "little" things that have big, very big consequences. A modeless is one of such things. Please be more serious and don't hope that host's plug-ins' ideology can be changed easy, painless and just cause we want

bronco
05-12-2006, 05:32 PM
Note: Scrim child groups can be reordered in project window (without making one a child of another). It requires a "precisious" dragging and result isn't re-generated automatically, but it works.
wow, never seen this. whoever build this into eias made the targetarea much to small. you have to a sniper to get it to work, but hey, it works. hurray!!! :)

Please specify concrete keys and a short, but concrete description of their functionality
on pc press spacebar + ctrl key, click left mouse and drag left, right to interactive zoom in or out. try the same keycombo in one of EIAS ortho-views to see what i mean.

There are "little" things that have big, very big consequences. A modeless is one of such things. Please be more serious and don't hope that host's plug-ins' ideology can be changed easy, painless and just cause we want

i am serious. this works. in eias. i have seen it.
i am no programer and i don't know nothing about eias api, but it is possible. i can't say if this is a serious hack (read: not documented in the api) or a real pain to implement, but if you are interested and need info about it, please contact Jens/Patrick. i know you know them :)
if this feature is to big/complicated to build in, ok. i understand.
finishing v1 and polishing the current feature-set is more important.

edit: little update on the car. i am very pleased with scrim beta5.
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car03.jpg

Igors
05-12-2006, 07:50 PM
Hi, Uwei am serious. this works. in eias. i have seen it.
i am no programer and i don't know nothing about eias api, but it is possible. i can't say if this is a serious hack (read: not documented in the api) or a real pain to implement, but if you are interested and need info about it, please contact Jens/Patrick. i know you know them :)
if this feature is to big/complicated to build in, ok. i understand.
finishing v1 and polishing the current feature-set is more important.Ok, we hope our little OT below would be quite pardonnable :) Here is a class of workers (very narrow) that's named here as "stayers" (very rough translate). They are typically very weak programmers, BUT: any programmer (even very cool) is really happy if he works together with a good stayer. They are elite over programmers elite. They are prophets, experts, their work is to analyze principal solutions in view of their perspectives/future. The typical confusion that's "a knowledge of specifics/context is absolute enough to give advices to programmers". That's true but in very little bounds. For normal programmer an implementing of this or that feature is just more or less time to implement. But what would be the eventual effect of this feature - positive or negative - that needs a special talent to predict.

Ok, modeless window. How to "settle" it? It would be absolute natural (maybe) if a plug-in activate its window if it's selected in project window? It would be "self-clear" if this window disappear automatically if a plug is deleted from prj? And if undone? If user opened 10 plugs step by step? All this headache is a work of stayer.

Please understand where you try to enter in.

Vizfizz
05-12-2006, 08:00 PM
wow, never seen this. whoever build this into eias made the targetarea much to small. you have to a sniper to get it to work, but hey, it works. hurray!!! :)


on pc press spacebar + ctrl key, click left mouse and drag left, right to interactive zoom in or out. try the same keycombo in one of EIAS ortho-views to see what i mean.



i am serious. this works. in eias. i have seen it.
i am no programer and i don't know nothing about eias api, but it is possible. i can't say if this is a serious hack (read: not documented in the api) or a real pain to implement, but if you are interested and need info about it, please contact Jens/Patrick. i know you know them :)
if this feature is to big/complicated to build in, ok. i understand.
finishing v1 and polishing the current feature-set is more important.

edit: little update on the car. i am very pleased with scrim beta5.
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car03.jpg

Uwe...

You never cease to amaze me. Nice work. You're work will inspire several to realize that even though the fancy 3rd party external modeling programs are nice, you can produce fantastic stuff with just the basics. The fact that you've produced this car body with only lofting tools speaks volumes to your skill. As Trestle, Scrim, Revolver and potentially other plugins evolve, EIAS will have new powers and capabilities that its never had before. Imagine what you'll be able to do when all these plugins start talking with each other and XP. There wont be much you won't be able to create.

Vizfizz
05-12-2006, 08:05 PM
By the way.. I'd love to hear more about your process and how you are finding the workflow within the plugin and EIAS. Are you satisfied with the workflow? How about the plugin's speed? What is it like for you to be able to model within EIAS?

(Just me milking it a bit....but seriously, I'm interested in your experience using the plugin.)

bronco
05-13-2006, 08:17 AM
thanks brian.
well, i am very pleased overall. workflow is as smooth as it can get with the current feature-set.
with the 2 things i mentioned earlier (shortcut for interactive zooming and the ability to navigate EIAS viewport with open plugin window) workflow will be even better. it's all about visual feedback. i hope i can get the igors to this point.
splines in v2 will be a major benefit, too.

right now there are 193 plugins in this project (5 übershapes, 15 scrim, rest trestle and nothing else), but no noticable slowdown so far.
it took me about 6 hours so far, spread over a few evenings, and 3 of them were just playing with different forms. so, believe me, with a little planning beforehand it would be very much possibel to build a complete car within a workday, in EIAS. and i am not that great modeler.

the process is very simple. for each panel i start with a trestle wire at one end, give it about 7-10 control points and build the profil. i duplicate this wire 2 times and add scrim. this way i have better feedback. then starts the shaping. all additional wires will also be duplicates. always only for one side of the car. the other side is made of mirrored slave wires that follow my main wires (very cool feature!). the only tricky part is getting nice rounded gaps at the start and end of scrim surfaces. that is why the whole body is one surface right now, without doors :)

modeling in eias is soooo great. for anything that can be done with trestle and scrim ( and i guess thats also true for revolver and bebel) this is a real timesaver. no more constant re-importing of changed models.

if there is interest i will compile a little tutorial (complete with project file) for the release of trestle and scrim. nothing to fancy, because i suck at this, but maybe it will help someone.

Vizfizz
05-13-2006, 06:18 PM
if there is interest i will compile a little tutorial (complete with project file) for the release of trestle and scrim. nothing to fancy, because i suck at this, but maybe it will help someone.


Oh yes..because you suck so horribly....right. Come on now Uwe, surely you don't think that.

And yes.. a little tutorial showing your wireframe setup would be great. I'd appreciate that very much.

plsyvjeucxfw
05-14-2006, 06:34 AM
Excellent thread, this one and the previous Mr. Revolver thread.

Makes me chuckle when I think back on the "Should there be Modeling Tools in Animator" poll from some months ago.

Should there be? Of course. Are there? There are now!

bronco
05-14-2006, 08:27 AM
Oh yes..because you suck so horribly....right. Come on now Uwe, surely you don't think that.

And yes.. a little tutorial showing your wireframe setup would be great. I'd appreciate that very much.

at least that's what my wife says when it comes to me teaching things. but maybe that's only because she is a university lecturer and has an other level understanding what it takes to teach something :)

Igors
05-14-2006, 02:35 PM
Hi, Uweon pc press spacebar + ctrl key, click left mouse and drag left, right to interactive zoom in or out. try the same keycombo in one of EIAS ortho-views to see what i mean.But it looks like press and drag the zoom button left/right in Trestle, no?

Igors
05-14-2006, 02:45 PM
Hello, gentlemen

In context of Scrim plug-in we are thinking how to give user a convenience way(s) to round corners in different variations. Your propositions/ideas are welcome

bronco
05-14-2006, 09:47 PM
Hi, UweBut it looks like press and drag the zoom button left/right in Trestle, no?

yes, same funcionality, but isn't it better to keep the shortcuts as close to hosts as possible?
it's allready hard to switch between apps, a plugin should stay consistent to host. thats what i think. besides this, you have to aim for the icon, which breaks the workflow (a little).
it is second nature to me to use this shortcut in ortho-views, so i try to use it in trestle as well, but nada.

In context of Scrim plug-in we are thinking how to give user a convenience way(s) to round corners in different variations. Your propositions/ideas are welcome
any examples? i am not sure if i exactly know what you mean? corners between U and V direction or U edges?

Igors
05-14-2006, 10:29 PM
yes, same funcionality, but isn't it better to keep the shortcuts as close to hosts as possible?
it's allready hard to switch between apps, a plugin should stay consistent to host. thats what i think. besides this, you have to aim for the icon, which breaks the workflow (a little).
it is second nature to me to use this shortcut in ortho-views, so i try to use it in trestle as well, but nada.Ok, so:

- if cmd-space (Mac) or ctl-space (PC) is pressed, then a "lens" cursor appears

- if in this mode user presses and drags mouse in graph area then the graph is zoomed (right = more zoom in, left = less zoom)

- btw: in host the zoom's center is a screen's center. We think it's more intuitive if it's a point where mouse was pressed

We would like to get instructions like that :)

Igors
05-14-2006, 10:43 PM
Hi, Uwe
About smooth cornersany examples? i am not sure if i exactly know what you mean? corners between U and V direction or U edges?Both. U: enough often a user needs something like attached example. It's not a creative procedure to surround each point with 2 neighbors + this construction has zero flexibility. Even a future splines in Trestle (v2) are not a best soluition IMO: the "global mimics" should be controlled in Scrim, not in each child.
V: no example, but if it's true for U, it should be true for V too :)

bronco
05-14-2006, 11:02 PM
Hi, Uwe
About smooth cornersBoth. U: enough often a user needs something like attached example. It's not a creative procedure to surround each point with 2 neighbors + this construction has zero flexibility. Even a future splines in Trestle (v2) are not a best soluition IMO: the "global mimics" should be controlled in Scrim, not in each child.
V: no example, but if it's true for U, it should be true for V too :)

i see. most flexible (from user point of view) would be true bezier. most of the users are familiar with illustrator or freehand and know how to use beziers. but i have no clue how this would work in V diection.

another idea: i know that you are familiar with 3d studio max.
try this: make a line with 3 segments, go into point edit mode, click on fillet, drag from point outwards. of course max uses bezier for the resulting points ;)
ok, i'll try to think about some other solutions till tomorrow.

Igors
05-15-2006, 01:29 PM
Hi,

Trestle beta 3 features are:

1. "Absolute" animation channels work for replicated instances (see zero activity of XP gurus though)

2. Added zoom with Cmd+Space + drag (Mac) or Ctl+Space + drag (PC)
Added points' deselection (Shift+Cmd + select rectangle)
Added commands to change countour's winding and set head/tail

3. Misc. bugs are fixed

Vizfizz
05-15-2006, 03:17 PM
Trestle Beta 3 seeded to beta testers.

Have at it!

bronco
05-15-2006, 04:07 PM
nice! the zooming is now much better.

the master/slave manager is not really suitable for projects with loads of trestle groups.
two ideas:
- multiple selection with shift key

or

- don't reset the window after link/unlink operation. meaning it should stay put at the last used listitem.

Igors
05-15-2006, 05:13 PM
Hi, Uwethe master/slave manager is not really suitable for projects with loads of trestle groups.Motives/reasons/considerations? Or we should kill this feature immediately ? :)
- multiple selection with shift keyPlease be more concrete (see #161)
- don't reset the window after link/unlink operation. meaning it should stay put at the last used listitem.Uwe, it's another one try to have a modeless behavior for modal plug-ins :) It will not work, sure. We can explain more details why (if they are interested)

cjberg
05-15-2006, 06:16 PM
Please do not read the lack of feedback as no movement from myself. I have looked at the plug-ins and evaluating how they work first, then I can come up with good ways to integrate XP.

Cj

Igors
05-15-2006, 06:26 PM
Hi, CharlesPlease do not read the lack of feedback as no movement from myself. I have looked at the plug-ins and evaluating how they work first, then I can come up with good ways to integrate XP.Ok, clear: the solid, fundamental approach :) BTW: z-coordinates of graph points aren't editable in Trestle's interface, but accessible as channels. We heard an opinion about great advantages if use them with XP (hmm... we personally aren't sure though :) )

bronco
05-15-2006, 06:37 PM
Hi, UweMotives/reasons/considerations? Or we should kill this feature immediately ? :)
Please be more concrete (see #161)
Uwe, it's another one try to have a modeless behavior for modal plug-ins :) It will not work, sure. We can explain more details why (if they are interested)

ok, all this is about the master/slave manager NOT modal or not!

please do not kill it! :) it is very usefull, but not so much when you have around >200 trestle groups listed. i'll try to descriebe the problem as good as possible... or try it yourself:

PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Project_100.zip)

- open the project. around 100 trestle groups included.
- try to link the last 7 trestles to the one named Trestle_Master in Master/Slave Manager
- now you see the need for multiple selection
(if you don't see it: you have to constantly scroll down to the end of the list over and over again, that's kinda frustrating if you have to relink 35 duplicated slaves to a new master on a loooong list)

instructions: (in master/slave manager of trestle)

- hold shift (mac & pc)
- left click to select trestle group
- left click to select second trestle group
- go on to select as many as you like
- click "link" (or "unlink")
- click to select master (all selected objects are slaves of this master)

ok?

now modal:
that was not about modal or not. that was about the master/slave manager listing jumping to the top of the list after every action.

instructions: (in master/slave manager of trestle)

- scroll down a long list of trestle groups
- select one (or more, see above) trestle group(s)
- click "link"
- click to select master
- listing of trestle group stays so that the selected master is still visible, not jumping to start of list.

ok?

on a sidenote:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car04.jpg

Igors
05-15-2006, 09:02 PM
ok, all this is about the master/slave manager NOT modal or not!

please do not kill it! :) it is very usefull, but not so much when you have around >200 trestle groups listed. i'll try to descriebe the problem as good as possible... or try it yourself:

PROJECT FILE (http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Project_100.zip)

- open the project. around 100 trestle groups included.
- try to link the last 7 trestles to the one named Trestle_Master in Master/Slave Manager
- now you see the need for multiple selection
(if you don't see it: you have to constantly scroll down to the end of the list over and over again, that's kinda frustrating if you have to relink 35 duplicated slaves to a new master on a loooong list)

instructions: (in master/slave manager of trestle)

- hold shift (mac & pc)
- left click to select trestle group
- left click to select second trestle group
- go on to select as many as you like
- click "link" (or "unlink")
- click to select master (all selected objects are slaves of this master)

ok?

now modal:
that was not about modal or not. that was about the master/slave manager listing jumping to the top of the list after every action.

instructions: (in master/slave manager of trestle)

- scroll down a long list of trestle groups
- select one (or more, see above) trestle group(s)
- click "link"
- click to select master
- listing of trestle group stays so that the selected master is still visible, not jumping to start of list.

ok?

Ok for both ok, clear now. From your previous letter we've not understood that you talk about m/s manager window (we thought about graph :eek:).

bronco
05-15-2006, 09:55 PM
igors,
interesting picture. how are the holes made? seperate trestle/scrims or a nice new feature? :)

Igors
05-15-2006, 11:29 PM
Hi, Uweinteresting picture. how are the holes made? seperate trestle/scrims or a nice new feature? :)No new features, just a little secrets :)
Ok, we've a question for you: how often you use which mode: "by Position", "by Indices" etc.? (no-no, we've no plans to kill "by Position", just today we fixed a couple of problems with it)

bronco
05-16-2006, 06:15 AM
i use "by indices" almost everytime, it just looks better, or cleaner, to me.

edit: i just looked into my car project. the above statement is not entirely true.
some panels of the car look better with "position". for this project the ratio is about 70:30 in favor of "indices" so far.

bronco
05-16-2006, 11:18 AM
hey igors,
as i understand eps import is out of the loop. ok, fine with me.

as trestle can import wires that are already in EIAS, how difficult would it be to include direct fact import? (this would require support for multiple lines in one trestle group.)

the workflow right now:
- export wires out of EIM or formZ as fact
- import into EIAS
- for every wire (and that can be a lot for, lets say a long word or sentence):
- open one trestle instance
- import one wire
- realign trestle group (location and scale), because the imported wires always take the whole graph) <- this breaks the whole workflow for everything but the simplest shapes. it's just too much hassle.

suggested workflow:
- export wires out of EIM or formZ as fact
- open trestle in EIAS
- click import fact (opens only facts that contain ONLY wires, all other will be ignored)
- boom, all wires in one trestle group, perfectly aligned, ready for scrim or some other operations.

don't panic, this is NOT a feature request, but maybe an idea for v2 or 3.

Igors
05-16-2006, 12:19 PM
Hi, Uwe
the ratio is about 70:30 in favor of "indices" so far.That coincides almost exactly with our experience

hey igors,
as i understand eps import is out of the loop. ok, fine with me.

as trestle can import wires that are already in EIAS, how difficult would it be to include direct fact import? (this would require support for multiple lines in one trestle group.)

the workflow right now:
- export wires out of EIM or formZ as fact
- import into EIAS
- for every wire (and that can be a lot for, lets say a long word or sentence):
- open one trestle instance
- import one wire
- realign trestle group (location and scale), because the imported wires always take the whole graph) <- this breaks the whole workflow for everything but the simplest shapes. it's just too much hassle.

suggested workflow:
- export wires out of EIM or formZ as fact
- open trestle in EIAS
- click import fact (opens only facts that contain ONLY wires, all other will be ignored)
- boom, all wires in one trestle group, perfectly aligned, ready for scrim or some other operations.

don't panic, this is NOT a feature request, but maybe an idea for v2 or 3.Of course, such fundamental things are only for next versions.

First we see no way to align imported group perfectly (EI group or FACT as well) - any conversion from 3D to 2D can miss data. But ok, imagine a "boom" is here :) and we see, say, a 10 poly-lines inside graph editor. Obviously we need much more controls, as minimum to select/activate/move a whole poly-line. But what constructive a user can do with our multiply wires - that's absolute not clear. "Multi-scrimming"? Hmm.. we never trusted that's a super-powerful way. Maybe (and sometimes) it can give interesting results (we seen no one example though :) ). What are "some other operations" you write? IMO it's always better (and much easier) to start a plan with concrete things that are apparently interested and usable.

Ok, we back to rebuild of Scrim splines.

bronco
05-16-2006, 02:56 PM
Of course, such fundamental things are only for next versions.
as i said. v2 or even later. but let's just talk about ideas.
when v2 is on it's way into beta, who knows if i am on the team to bring this to your attention.
if i continue likes this, maybe you don't even want me back on the team :)
but here it goes:

First we see no way to align imported group perfectly (EI group or FACT as well) - any conversion from 3D to 2D can miss data.
as it is now, sure. i can see why.
but these wires have information on them where they are in world space. i imaging this could somehow be translated into graph values (with automated graph size change to incorporate values like x: -1500 y: 2567).
for z values there are 3 possible scenarios:
- ignore them (project to 0 -> 2d)
- require the user to only use 2d wires (reject other wires)
- use the z values. in graph editor only x,y values can be edited, but z values can be edited in XP or spread sheet mode.
again i am no programmer and do know nothing about math :)

But ok, imagine a "boom" is here :) and we see, say, a 10 poly-lines inside graph editor. Obviously we need much more controls, as minimum to select/activate/move a whole poly-line.
select polyline = double click on point or edge to select the whole polyline
move = same as now, move what's selected
activate/deactivate = maybe a little window like master/slave editor or rename childs with a list of all wires. with checkboxes to activate or deactivate.
how about a rotate tool for selections with more than one point?

But what constructive a user can do with our multiply wires - that's absolute not clear. "Multi-scrimming"? Hmm.. we never trusted that's a super-powerful way.
hmm, the reason is the same as "why trestle at all?"!
everything that trestle and scrim does can be made outside of EIAS, sometimes even better and more flexible. but the mainreason trestle and scrim are so great is that they are fast, have great workflow and are animatable to the core.
if you have to wrestle with 10 or 20 wires that form a logo or something, then the current approach is not fast and has no great workflow.
AND that would lead a "possible" way of eps into EIAS. EIM imports them, formZ too i think. Export as wires, open with trestle. voila. personally i don't have much use for this, but many people do.

Maybe (and sometimes) it can give interesting results (we seen no one example though :) ). What are "some other operations" you write? IMO it's always better (and much easier) to start a plan with concrete things that are apparently interested and usable.
other operations refer to brians comment that trestle should be the 2d hub for other things that are (might be) comming.

as always these suggestions are coming from hands-on project work. give me a little time and i try to put a stripped down project online. but i hope you understand what i mean. english isn't my mother-language, so i try to describe the things as good as i can.

Igors
05-16-2006, 11:45 PM
as i said. v2 or even later. but let's just talk about ideas.
when v2 is on it's way into beta, who knows if i am on the team to bring this to your attention.
if i continue likes this, maybe you don't even want me back on the team :)The life is a long song :)

Well, about Trestle v2 - it's a long way and, IMO, it's not always rational to see so far ahead. Some things are clear (like Beziers v2), some others are blurred sketches, ideas - it's normal. Note that a lot depends from usage of Trestle, not from the plug-in itself. If a concrete plug-in would require some wires, then it would be clear how to adjust Trestle for concrete needs. Without this our plans are a bit "abstract" :)

halfworld
05-17-2006, 09:10 AM
Hello!

The builders woke me up at 6am today (woe is life ;) so I thought I would do something useful...

XP + Trestle (it works!)
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/trestlexp.mov
The one in the middle has had too much coffee...
It's only simple, but oh my, the possibilities!

On a related matter, the replicator seems to be broken, when you try to create animation channels for JUST rotation or scale, all the replicated instances disappear....
Can someone confirm this?
Ian

bronco
05-17-2006, 09:25 AM
On a related matter, the replicator seems to be broken, when you try to create animation channels for JUST rotation or scale, all the replicated instances disappear....
Can someone confirm this?
Ian

yep, same here.
maybe related: if the position channels are set to absolute, changing the offset values doesn't always work.

bronco
05-17-2006, 09:53 AM
dear igors,
please take a look at this project:

TS08 Project File (http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Project_TS08.zip)

in animator everythings looks like it should, but take a snapshot render. all messed up.

halfworld
05-17-2006, 11:17 AM
That's knackered! I can't even seem to move the trestle plugs....

However, when I create exactly the same thing in a new project, it works as expected.....

Very strange....
Ian

Igors
05-17-2006, 01:51 PM
please take a look at this project:

TS08 Project File (http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Project_TS08.zip)

in animator everythings looks like it should, but take a snapshot render. all messed up.Fixing........

Igors
05-17-2006, 05:01 PM
Hi, gentlemen

Scrim Beta 6: splines, splines, splines :)
See all details in new doc

Vizfizz
05-17-2006, 06:12 PM
Scrim Beta 6 has been seeded to the beta team.

Go go go...

bronco
05-17-2006, 09:03 PM
uuuh, nice update with splines.
unfortunatly some little problems:

merge factor 1 - ok:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/merge01.jpg

merge factor 0 - not ok:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/merge02.jpg


another problem:

"by indices" - ok:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/halb_in.jpg

"by position" - not ok:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/halb_po.jpg


PROJECT FILE for this. (http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Project_b6.zip)

Igors
05-18-2006, 02:50 AM
Hi, Uwe
uuuh, nice update with splines.
unfortunatly some little problems:Fixed in beta 7 (coming soon). Such detailed reports as yours make our work much easier. Thank you and don't hesitate to inform more bugs :)

Vizfizz
05-18-2006, 03:22 AM
Scrim beta 7 .plm file has been seeded to the beta testers.

Vizfizz
05-18-2006, 05:19 AM
Scrim beta 7. Invert normals does not work. Matter of fact, none of the general options seem to be working.

bronco
05-18-2006, 07:43 AM
so far, everything seems to work on my end. maybe a problem with the mac .plm file?

cjberg
05-18-2006, 06:34 PM
ok, I have finished going through what the plug's do, and have run a few XP tests... which work just fine. I still have more tests to run.

1 thing that would help, and Jens & Patrick would have to help with this also, I am sure... but it would be helpful to know how many points a trestle plug-in has. Either as a test or as a static variable.

Second, I would love to hear some ideas on how people would like to see XP control. it has point control, and works fine with scrim, so it has potential. I am stuck with the thoughts of jellyfish movements, randomizing points, passing waves through points, and similar simple tasks. I see what was done with the car & button, and it is clear that others in the beta have a better understanding of how it can be used and I would love to hear some brain storming.

One thing I did notice is that scrim does not allow motion blurring of the point movement? Which is similar to other plug-ins.

Cj

Igors
05-18-2006, 06:53 PM
Hi, Charles, glad to see news from you
1 thing that would help, and Jens & Patrick would have to help with this also, I am sure... but it would be helpful to know how many points a trestle plug-in has. Either as a test or as a static variable. So, it would be helpful to add an auxiliary channel "count of points"? Please confirm/concretize and we'll add it tomorrow
Second, I would love to hear some ideas on how people would like to see XP control. it has point control, and works fine with scrim, so it has potential. I am stuck with the thoughts of jellyfish movements, randomizing points, passing waves through points, and similar simple tasks. I see what was done with the car & button, and it is clear that others in the beta have a better understanding of how it can be used and I would love to hear some brain storming.Hehe, Charles, work would be much easier if we've a "bank of ideas" and think only about how to implement this or that. But in real life a developer should propose an idea and people support it (hmm... maybe :) )
One thing I did notice is that scrim does not allow motion blurring of the point movement? Which is similar to other plug-ins.CjRight, all blur of original point movement is ignored. It's always a problem which blur (inherited from childs or self) should be counted.

halfworld
05-18-2006, 10:17 PM
Igors,

The animation channel bug is still there (from a post a couple of pages back).

If you replicate, then create either/or scale/rotation animation channels, all the replicated instances dissapear. You have to create position animation channelsalong with scale/rotation to get around this.

Also, space bar doesnt work as the 'apply' shortcut like it does in Revolver, Bebel etc etc.

Cheers!
Ian

Igors
05-19-2006, 09:10 AM
Hi, Ian
The animation channel bug is still there (from a post a couple of pages back).

If you replicate, then create either/or scale/rotation animation channels, all the replicated instances dissapear. You have to create position animation channelsalong with scale/rotation to get around this.Preparing Trestle beta4 (today later or tomorrow)

Also, space bar doesnt work as the 'apply' shortcut like it does in Revolver, Bebel etc etc.spacebar is busy with "scale rectangle". Unfortunately, F8 (same as all "F" keys except F1) is not supported by plug-ins API for PC platform, we need to add a piece of native PC code. Not all at once, Ian :)

halfworld
05-19-2006, 09:33 AM
Okay, whoops, I got confused, the last beta was Scrim not Trestle, so of course the bug isn't fixed :)

My mistake.
Ian

bronco
05-19-2006, 10:49 AM
Hi, UweNo new features, just a little secrets :)


do you care to share this little secret with us? i have tried some things with different setups, but can't find a way to generate this kind of geometry. really curious! ;)

halfworld
05-19-2006, 11:45 AM
It's the standard hole procedure as described in the manual...
There are two scrim objects, one for the outsides of the button, one for the insides.

Take a look at the screenshot. I tried to do holes with a different method but apparently the way I tried was 'unlucky' eh Igors ;)

bronco
05-19-2006, 12:35 PM
Hehe, Charles, work would be much easier if we've a "bank of ideas" and think only about how to implement this or that. But in real life a developer should propose an idea and people support it (hmm... maybe :) )

sooo, you want some ideas?
you know, i still have some up my sleeves ;)
all of this is for future versions, of course. and yeah, i know, i am a pain in the *** ;)

1. Animatiable surface coverage for Scrim. like so:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/coverage.jpg
pretty self-speaking, i think.

2. (a little bit more advanced) Projected Trestle Wires
this means that if you link some geometry to Trestle, you can project the control points in +/- Z diection on this geometry. for better understanding i build a little mockup:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/projection.jpg

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/projection_set.jpg

the options:

direction: - none
- positive Z
- negative Z

Offset: the offset the resulting wire keeps from the child geometry in GU. positive or negative values. 0 is on surface

Distance: the distance Trestle looks for Geometry. if no geometry is found to project on within this value, the control point is not moved. maybe better called treshold.

updated: (this is where the fun begins) this checkbox keeps Trestle LIVE (like in Maya).
Trestle looks for every frame if the child geometry is moved or otherwise animated. even if the X, Y values are changed in graph editor, trestle updates the Z values, so the projected wire always stays connected to the geometry. this will allow some pretty nifty animation setups.

ok, i hope you understood my ideas so far.

halfworld
05-19-2006, 01:14 PM
That would be cool, it would allow you to build patches between objects.

Good thinking Uwe... If it can be done ;)
Ian

Igors
05-19-2006, 01:25 PM
Hello, gentlemen

Trestle Beta 4:

1. Animation channels bugs are fixed

2. Auxiliary channels are added for XP

3. Graph: Cmd (Ctl for PC) + mouse click (but not drag) = add a new point to end

Igors
05-19-2006, 01:29 PM
do you care to share this little secret with us? i have tried some things with different setups, but can't find a way to generate this kind of geometry. really curious! ;)Sure, Uwe, but the project is 107K in zip, cannot be attached here.

Ian, please "publish" Button(simplified).prj if possible

Igors
05-19-2006, 01:53 PM
sooo, you want some ideas?
you know, i still have some up my sleeves ;)

1. Animatiable surface coverage for Scrim. like so:

pretty self-speaking, i think.Yes, but, unlike MrRevolver, here the same thing needs more efforts (splines needs points outside output range).

2. (a little bit more advanced) Projected Trestle Wires
this means that if you link some geometry to Trestle, you can project the control points in +/- Z diection on this geometry. for better understanding i build a little mockup:Clear-clear, BUT: why "Projected Trestle Wires", not just "Projected Wires"? Or, even more, "Projected (flat) Shapes"? Let Trestle prepares a wire (or a flat shape) and let another one plug-in "projects" it in different ways. It can be interested.

And, of course, we've a classic question: for what it can be usable for?

bronco
05-19-2006, 03:20 PM
if it can be done with another plugin, fine.
it just adds another layer of complexity, good for more flexibility, bad for more plugins stacking on each other -> more possible errors/slowdowns/linkage troubles etc.

so, what is it good for?
- always conforming contours. no need to use deformations to "eyeball"-align a wire to another object:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/tire_gap.jpg

here you see the gap between tire and frontpanel of the car. right now trestle is bend with deformations. now imagine that the tire wasn't just round, but some more complex form. or, for some reason its form would even be animated. you wouldn't have much chance to achive a proper gap with just deformations. X and Y values are needed to define the profile of the panel, so the easiest way would be to project the z values of the control points, add an offset and you are ready to go.

if you want to extend external models (read: not build in EIAS), this will be huge time saver, because you don't have to eyeball the contours.
add deformations, morphs or even skinned geometry in the mix, and this will be pretty impossible.
i am sure there are much more applications for such feature, this is just a simple example.

halfworld
05-19-2006, 03:21 PM
Well, Uwe is a much better modeller then me, so he WILL come up with better examples ;) but I just did this test really quickly in FZ.

Projected lines (or lines of intersection) would allow you to do this kind of thing
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/fzloft.png

It would let you do things like attach a plane wing onto a fuselage to make them look 'welded' together. That kind of thing....

Also, for Uwe, here's the button hole project: http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/button.zip

Ian

EDIT: Okay, Uwe beat my post by 1 minute :)

bronco
05-19-2006, 03:38 PM
good example Ian. blending objects together is an pretty common task. a sphere is quite simple, but try something more complex, lets say a human figure. now you're out of luck.

sidenote: to keep animation and hierarchies simple, is it possible for a plugin to read the geometrie of something that is NOT its child? does the api allow this? i guess not.

edit: thanks Ian for the button! :)

halfworld
05-19-2006, 03:57 PM
Yes, but would you really be modelling a human with trestle!?

Go on, i dare ya ;)
Ian

bronco
05-19-2006, 04:15 PM
err, noooo ;)

i was speaking about conforming wires TO human shapes! ;)

Vizfizz
05-19-2006, 04:34 PM
Trestle Beta 4 seeded to beta team.

Igors
05-19-2006, 06:39 PM
Hi, Uwe

Very interesting theme (even OT a bit), sure.
if it can be done with another plugin, fine.
it just adds another layer of complexity, good for more flexibility, bad for more plugins stacking on each other -> more possible errors/slowdowns/linkage troubles etc..Uwe, thx for your tactful, but your worries are fully understandable (see "WaterBlobs" thread about how different tools work together. Grr...)

However, engineering laws are same strong as physical laws (as minimum). We would come to crash very soon if we try to violate them. We should not settle several souls in one body, it's a way to numerous conflicts only (unfortunately (for us) we've checked this many times in our practice). The right way is to combine plug-ins as Stephane pointed out (btw: where is he?)
so, what is it good for?
- always conforming contours. no need to use deformations to "eyeball"-align a wire to another object:That's we understand well (btw: it fully corresponds to maya's ideology :) )
here you see the gap between tire and frontpanel of the car. right now trestle is bend with deformations. now imagine that the tire wasn't just round, but some more complex form. or, for some reason its form would even be animated. you wouldn't have much chance to achive a proper gap with just deformations. X and Y values are needed to define the profile of the panel, so the easiest way would be to project the z values of the control points, add an offset and you are ready to go. From this explanation we understood something, but (we guess) not all. Please explain again, more simplified schemes/examples would be wanted. Let's switch to private discussion if it needs more time/details.

Igors
05-19-2006, 06:46 PM
Hi, IanIt would let you do things like attach a plane wing onto a fuselage to make them look 'welded' together. That kind of thing....Hmmm.. we heard this request from 3dsmax guys at least 15 times. Looks like they are very greedy to pay onlly $0.4K for Power Booleans :)

Igors
05-21-2006, 06:38 PM
"Block" example (Scrim + Trestle)

Vizfizz
05-22-2006, 02:56 AM
Path2Line v1.5 ultility tool seeded to beta testers.

Igors
05-24-2006, 01:28 PM
Trestle example

bronco
05-24-2006, 06:05 PM
Scrim example: ;)

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Scrim_Teapot02.jpg

yeah, i know. it's dirty, it's ugly and it's a teapot. :)
but i really love the beauty of chaos!

Igors
05-24-2006, 06:14 PM
Scrim example: ;)If you want to show a caricature, please do it well too, otherwise it's not a fun but only heavy and confused

bronco
05-24-2006, 06:19 PM
If you want to show a caricature, please do it well too, otherwise it's not a fun but only heavy and confused

this was no caricature. and it is actually scrim generating this geometry.
so, sorry if the headline was to similar to yours, but i don't understand why you seem so upset. ???
screenshot:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/teapot_screen.jpg

Vizfizz
05-24-2006, 06:54 PM
Very, very interesting Uwe.. ala Meats Meier. :) Are you having Dante emit Trestle objects from a teapot surface emitter and then scrimming between everything? If there was only a way to get rid of that one connecting surface between the spout and the top of the teapot.

Igors
05-24-2006, 08:18 PM
this was no caricature. and it is actually scrim generating this geometry.
so, sorry if the headline was to similar to yours, but i don't understand why you seem so upset. ???Cause we appreciate this as an irony at samples we posted. Ok, we are just programmers and amateur artists. You can do better than we are? Ok, very well, show us and we would be happy to provide more features for you. But if you post such images, so.. where we are: inside Artists or in cheap show-booth? If you post an image please think it should be better at least what poor programmers can do. Clear?

bronco
05-24-2006, 08:28 PM
Cause we appreciate this as an irony at samples we posted. Ok, we are just programmers and amateur artists. You can do better than we are? Ok, very well, show us and we would be happy to provide more features for you. But if you post such images, so.. where we are: inside Artists or in cheap show-booth? If you post an image please think it should be better that should be at least what poor programmers can do. Clear?


hmm. i don't really know what to say.
FIRST: this had NOTHING to do with what you posted! are you ok with this?
SECOND: i was pointing out something that i just tried. out of curiosity i linked Dante to Scrim. Bingo. Nice surface spanning over particles. 5 minutes later and this is what you see. a fast test of something i just discovered.
if you don't want me to post tests, ok. i'll stop. i am done with this.

btw: i think this is a nice feature , maybe not something you'll use very often or at all, but in my opinion it really shows some of the great flexibility. but thats just me. sue me.

Vizfizz
05-25-2006, 02:40 AM
Gentlemen..

Focus please.. there is no reason for anger.

Uwe: Please continue your tests. The idea of using particles as the foundation for geometry generation is interesting. I wish to see more of this. (More on that later). However, for future tests, any unorthodox method of using scrim should come along with a detailed explaination of the process. The Igors need more "literal" implimentations of the plugin for testing purposes. However we are here to explore and push the plugin to its limits. Remember too Uwe that its impossible to read voice inflection in an email.

Igors: Trestle and Scrim are amazing products. They are going to be revolutionary for the EI community. I don't believe anyone is critcizing your artistic talents. Certainly not Uwe. It does not seem indicitive of any of his previous behavior. We've got two non english speakers trying to communicate in english and in text format.. ugh.. very difficult.

Everyone has a different approach to art whether it be realistic and literal or abstract and lateral. Both have their place. Lets continue to work together to provide strong tools for our community.

Oh..and here's a Trestle and Scrim image by Ian Waters!

sacslacker
05-25-2006, 06:05 AM
Definitely guys, I think all of those images are very cool! These plugins are indeed awesome. They are a way to create geometry that I've never ran into before. Not to mention how stable the plugins are even when being used for something completely unexpected! Great work if you ask me.

Igors, I don't think you give yourself enough credit. That image was very nice and even though you may not consider yourself artists, it's apparent that there is an artist in you! =)

halfworld
05-25-2006, 08:23 AM
A wee project to make a bridge using replication....

Only Trestle and Bebel in this very, very rough test.

I need to improve the pattern... and everything else... and get a reference photo :)
Ian

Igors
05-25-2006, 09:18 AM
i was pointing out something that i just tried. out of curiosity i linked Dante to Scrim. Bingo. Nice surface spanning over particles. 5 minutes later and this is what you see. a fast test of something i just discovered.Let's talk a little about experimenting. Scrim is not near easy plug-in. Yes, it's powerful, but.. it requires a concrete planning of shape, careful preparing of source curves etc. A distance to final result is longer than, say, with MrsBebel. That's just a lofting nature. A motive/reason of many experiments is: avoid all this careful work and find a way to achieve results instantly. Maybe it's possible, that's we don't know. But in practice it starts and ends with results like teapots above. There is a thing an experimentator often forgets: a goal of any experiment is a nice image. "Experimenting for experimenting" never has an usable output.

And another one: we are preparing samples/images for Scrim's gallery. How about to help us with absolute normal, "orthodox" images/movies ? (yes, they require much more time/efforts than experiments)

bronco
05-25-2006, 11:45 AM
hi igors,

by now i understand that you are more drawn towards the "realism" aspects of 3d. and i can understand that this is more desired when it comes to putting together a gallery for marketing purposes. ok, understood, but my "taste" is different. actually, i think the teapot looks very interesting, maybe not totally refined, but very interesting.
below you can find two new car renders you can use, if you wish. all trestle and scrim, all your babys.

BUT let me tell you this: this car was developed out of experimenting! that's the way i usually work, when not working for clients. are you clients of mine? no.
"Experimenting for experimenting" never has an usable output.
so, i guess the car is not usable for you....
ok. this is your show, not mine.

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car13.jpg

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car14.jpg

yhloon
05-25-2006, 12:08 PM
Scrim example: ;)

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/Scrim_Teapot02.jpg

yeah, i know. it's dirty, it's ugly and it's a teapot. :)
but i really love the beauty of chaos!

:bounce:
this is interesting, remind me Maya splash screen...
these Trestle & Scrim looks interesting & promising :)

lets see what else these plug-in can do...



Loon

Igors
05-25-2006, 12:41 PM
Hi, Uwebelow you can find two new car renders you can use, if you wishWe defintely wish. If it's possible, please do more renders of this model in different views.but my "taste" is different. actually, i think the teapot looks very interesting, maybe not totally refined, but very interesting.We don't understand why you need to discover "something special and elite" (and absolute unnatural) instead of just use tools normally with nice results as you showed with your cars. Thank you.

bronco
05-25-2006, 12:58 PM
We defintely wish. If it's possible, please do more renders of this model in different views.
ok, i'll do.

We don't understand why you need to discover "something special and elite" (and absolute unnatural) instead of just use tools normally with nice results as you showed with your cars. Thank you.
that's the problem. you don't understand why. example:
if you would develop an audio sequencer software, would you tell your beta-tester not to make punk music with it? just because you don't like it, or don't understand why other people like it?
so, you want mozart instead of punk-rock?
ok, so be it.

yhloon
05-25-2006, 01:00 PM
OK! Slightly off topic...

I didn’t read the whole thing with my previous post, just want to add something...

I've follow this thread on the very beginning... Trestle & Scrim is a very interesting tool, especially the animated features that halfworld has shown, together with revolver and Mrs. bebal, modeling in EIAS is no longer a dream.

BUT I don't think I'll need it at the moment :) , at least no in my "must have" list, because most of my work are still image, and I use EIM and silo for most of my modeling work. Except Trestle & Scrim can do something that other modeling package can't (or difficult to do)

Uwe's image do make me interest in Trestle & Scrim, it shows the potential these two plug-in, and how it combine to others (nice teapot)...

Uwe, you have done an excellent job as a beta tester (IMHO)

And Igor, congratulations, you’ve create another monster plug-in… I hope I’ve the money to purchase the entire modeling plug of yours, you are a genius!!

Edit: Igor what do you think about this image?
http://meats.cgsociety.org/gallery/199121/


peace?
Loon

halfworld
05-25-2006, 01:37 PM
Uwe,

Stunning renders. Great work!
And loon, you're right, that's exactly what came into my head when I looked at it; the 'Wicker man'.

Ian

PS. for loon > http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/screq.mov
simple reactive animation of the replication offset, not a 'normal' use for the plug-in I grant you. Just some Thursday fun ;)
PPS. More normal things to follow! Promise!

Igors
05-25-2006, 02:43 PM
that's the problem. you don't understand why. example:
if you would develop an audio sequencer software, would you tell your beta-tester not to make punk music with it? just because you don't like it, or don't understand why other people like it?
so, you want mozart instead of punk-rock?
ok, so be it.You can play 4/4 (DP), 4/4 with syncopes (LZ), 7/4 (Yes), you can play punk, classic, waltz and absolute anything you want. But there is no music without measure, there are common rules of harmony that all styles follow by. Otherwise it's a noise, not a music. So, we would ask our audio sequencer beta-tester to play music (any music he wants) but not a noise.

Vizfizz
05-25-2006, 04:22 PM
Ok..time for the moderator to step in. I've suggested that everyone play nice, but we're getting off topic here and we're attacking each other's positions. I'm going to say my final words here and then we're going back to beta testing.

CGTalk is a professional forum. It is about advancing the understanding of using computer graphics as an art form. In this forum, we've selected EIAS as our paintbrush. As we are all aware, art is a matter of subjective opinion. What is beauty to one may not be beauty to another. However, we can all agree that our mutual goals is to produce professional level works of art.

The Igors are obviously left brained thinkers. Art has rules, structure, form and order. We must consider that their position on this is likely culturally based and personally formed. Uwe however prefers a lateral, right brained and experimental process to creating art. Is he disrespecting those rules? I do not believe so. He may break rules in order to find new ground. Is one better than the other? No. Art's subjectivity is what makes art so wonderful. We are all diverse, creative beings and it is reflected in what we create.

I support the Igors in their desire to place limitations on what they wish to see from their plugin for beta testing purposes. If they only desire realism results from their beta team, then please provide them with that. That is their right. However I challenge the Igors to consider what potential clients/customers they might not obtain if more experimental, graphic based applications of their product is not explored. The modeling market is rather saturated and any extra edge that these plugins can provide that is unique and different can be seen as a marketing plus...both for themselves and for EITG.

Judgement calls on the subjectivity and experimental nature of art should be left to one's self. However, positive critque and constructive criticism is encouraged. If a 5 minute experimental technique can lead to even greater works of art then that should be explored.

What the CG Society discourages, is the complete lack of originality through the use of preconstructed models and "canned" effects. This is using someone else's art and models in leu of your own...particularly if its the main subject matter and is promoted as being your own unique work. So, understanding that, I'm not going to tolerate these boards being filled with lots of bad art. In Uwe's case I do not see that as a pattern. Uwe has created excellent works of realism, therefore we know he has a command of the software. Uwe's teapot is simply a process of discovery...it just does not "fit" into the Igors' request for works of realism.

So...let us continue to move forward.

FelixCat
05-25-2006, 06:20 PM
Hi
I had follow this thread with great interest. And i want to add a little opinion. I think this plug in its amazing for modeling inside EiAS but, as designer, i was more interested in the OT experiments of Uwe and Ian... if i need to model a car, i feel i will use a more complete modelling solution, like EiM, SILO or Modo, but the Uwe/Ian tests show me another path that i can´t do with EiM, SILO or Modo. And THAT it´s very interesting.
Keep the amazing work.
This Plugin looks fascinating

FelixCat

(sorry for my poor english)

Igors
05-25-2006, 06:49 PM
BUT I don't think I'll need it at the moment :) , at least no in my "must have" list, because most of my work are still image, and I use EIM and silo for most of my modeling work. Except Trestle & Scrim can do something that other modeling package can't (or difficult to do)Loon, your big "IF" and "BUT" tell us: you are not familiar with our conception. Let us explain (of course you can accept it or refuse as you want).

Ok, see attached "b1". Of course, it's not a great modeling :). Of course, it can be achieved with any way you want - and it's absolute not hard and not unique. Now look at "b2" and "b3". Absolute same. So, what is a sense here? Simply b2-b3 can be achieved from b1 in few seconds only. During a minute you can modify and observe 10-20 variants (depending from speed of your fingers) and select what you like. And it's already inside your scene. Of couse (no doubts) you can do all this in modeler. But how long you would jump between here and there? It's like a "competition" between hiking and bicycle, how do you think who will be a winner? We just propose you a good bicycle (no matter you persistantly affirm you don't need it :))

Edit: Igor what do you think about this image?
http://meats.cgsociety.org/gallery/199121/ (http://meats.cgsociety.org/gallery/199121/)
We think it's cool and 100% classic image

Vizfizz
05-25-2006, 07:01 PM
Rapid alteration to an existing model using replication is definitely a nice feature. Taking the same steps in an outside modeling program would take considerably longer.

bronco
05-25-2006, 07:04 PM
Hello Gentlemen,

if i offended someone, please accept my formal apology.
I did not want a fight and i did not want to be offensive/defensive.

I simply didn't get the message that experimenting wasn't desired and only final ART should be posted.

http://www.orangefx.de/ts/TS_car18.jpg

Vizfizz
05-25-2006, 07:12 PM
Uwe..

You have no reason to apologize. Your expirements are appreciated. This is simply a case of misunderstanding. Personally, I find your expirements of particle based geometry generation very interesting. I actually thought of it myself, but never got a chance to put it into practice. (Way too busy) Any method to place Trestle instances along the surface of an existing piece of geometry poses some cool applications especially for providing that subconscious detail. Experiments with Trestle, Placer Deposit, and Scrim would also be interesting too look into. Animated greebles anyone?

Thank you for your beautiful car rendering. Impressive.

Igors
05-25-2006, 11:00 PM
if i offended someone, please accept my formal apology.
I did not want a fight and i did not want to be offensive/defensive.Uwe, one Igor disagree with another Igor absolute every day. But they work together recent 13 years. A some misunderstanding and some conflicts are unavoidable if people do a real work.
I simply didn't get the message that experimenting wasn't desired and only final ART should be posted.Brian and we sent you a series of betas (we don't remember how many exactly). Yes, they are all buggy, but: do you remember any one that is not for real testing but for "our debug" only? We think that no. Our debug is our problem. Experimenting.. but, Uwe, there are facts and assumptions. You modeled a car in EI. From now it's a real FACT, not an assumption. What? It's not perfect, there are more completely model solutions etc. etc. Let theoretics discuss what they want, that's their affair. But the song remains the same: now EI is able to create a car without any side help. And it's good and right. But, Uwe, what to do with your irresponsible experiments? "Maybe rain maybe snow, maybe yes maybe no" Or what? No facts but only a lot of assumptions ...

Vizfizz
05-25-2006, 11:52 PM
Well.. if the door is open for a rational discussion here.. lets examine Uwe's experimental project and see what it could be used for. Here's my observations:

1. With a little effort, the illusion of three dimentional wicker, straw or twigs could be produced. The teapot base sort of looks like a bird's nest. Imagine trying to do that by placing individual sticks and twigs yourself. Very time consuming. Uwe accomplished 90% of the effect in 5 minutes.

2. The geometry could easily be given a metal texture to produce woven wires.

3. Maya possesses a technology called paint fx. We have nothing along those lines of modeling capabitlities or visual tricks in EI. If particle systems could be controlled to deliver multiple Trestle instances lofted together by Scrim...is there a possibilty of creating something like a particle rope cannon? Think about it. Add turbulence, gravity, and other dynamic factors influencing the position of the Trestle particle instance..and viola... But wait.. even more ideas.. lets add deformers into the mix. Suddenly you could deform the particle group and bend and modify the traveling particle to influence its direction. Scrim's spline functions should be able to accomplish a smooth transition for this with very few Trestle particles. Hmmm....as long as the Dante delivery is simple.. it could work.

4. Combining this ideology with Placer Deposit could result in a new method to generate animatible greebles along the surface of an object. I see lots of benefits for that.

Ideas and assumptions are where facts are born.

bronco
05-26-2006, 01:34 AM
well, some time ago there was a discussion about this wicker stuff over at the postforum, so there seems to be interest in the community. -> LINK (http://www.postforum.com/forums/read.php?f=9&i=40471&t=40471)

and i am glad that my little experiment got you thinking about what can be done with it, brian. the mission is a success :)

just to keep you thinking:
igors, in theory, is it somehow possible to force camera to smooth facets over several groups? lets look at the suggested hierarchie:

trestle - provides wires
scrim - spans surfaces over wires
commissure (?) - stiches several scrim groups together and allows patch modeling.

i know this is a little far fetched. all i want is that you stop a second and think about it. would it be possible?

Vizfizz
05-26-2006, 01:39 AM
Well.. I got a quick and very simple particle rope cannon to work. Only spent a little while on it. Dante seems to work better at it than PPPro...

Both particle systems are capable of generating geometry in OpenGL, but I can't seem to get a render out of camera that works. PPPro renders a black frame, while Dante only renders a portion of the geometry and the particle trestle objects. Looks like Animator isn't passing something along to Camera. Plus I need to spend some time massaging the Dante particle emission. For some reason, I can't get Dante to emit equidistant particles. This isn't horribly crucial.. but it would be nice. Easily accomplished in PPPro. Gotta check my settings. Probably something really easy.

In another experiment, I've also placed a deformer on the Dante and/or scrim group which effectively modifies the resulting geometry. Again.. no luck on getting a render. Perhaps my Scrim settings are wrong.

Edit: Uwe.. you're on a PC right? I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I can't get Camera to render any geometry even though I can see in Animator.. strange

Igors
05-26-2006, 09:28 AM
Hi, Uwein theory, is it somehow possible to force camera to smooth facets over several groups?EI Model plug-in is responsible for vertices normals calculation (that define smoothing). A plug-in can calculate them as it wants: by using one or all child groups. lets look at the suggested hierarchie:
trestle - provides wires
scrim - spans surfaces over wires
commissure (?) - stiches several scrim groups together and allows patch modeling.

i know this is a little far fetched. all i want is that you stop a second and think about it. would it be possible?Possible, but, IMO, in absolute different way. For basic primitives like wicker/straw we see no sense to use Scrim engine, they can be modeled much simpler. Generally, modeling of a single wicker is not a problem. But the problem is: how to "settle" multiply primitives on specified surface, how to control their orientation, density and many other things. Don't forget about self-intersections. From your sketch plan it's absolute unclear what tool would do this (main) part of work. Particle systems? Looks not convincing.

bronco
05-26-2006, 10:10 AM
Again.. no luck on getting a render. Perhaps my Scrim settings are wrong.

Edit: Uwe.. you're on a PC right? I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I can't get Camera to render any geometry even though I can see in Animator.. strange

no luck on my side either. dante generated line-particles work fine as wires for scrim, but trestles or EIM wires emitted as particles just don't work.
in all the fuzz yesterday i missed the fact that the render and the screenshot are a few minutes apart. sorry.
so, back to the problem:
i don't know if blair is reading this thread, but i think he should be informed.
igors, are you looking into brians project, too? whats your take on what is going wrong?

bronco
05-26-2006, 10:15 AM
Possible, but, IMO, in absolute different way. For basic primitives like wicker/straw we see no sense to use Scrim engine, they can be modeled much simpler. Generally, modeling of a single wicker is not a problem. But the problem is: how to "settle" multiply primitives on specified surface, how to control their orientation, density and many other things. Don't forget about self-intersections. From your sketch plan it's absolute unclear what tool would do this (main) part of work. Particle systems? Looks not convincing.

sorry, but this was not about wicker things. it was basicly about NURBS-modeling. well, not really NURBS, but the workflow. stiching together several scrim surfaces, make them blend into one conplex surface. and i am not even saying that this is what i need. i just wanted to know if this would be possible with the current api.

btw: Very nice birds nest! how did you do it?

edit: a plugin which fills a volume (child_A) with some other objects (child_B, child_C,...) (in user controlable density - per child and no intersections) would be nice. :)
i am aware that this is a very specific task and right now i can't think of any other application that would benefit from such plugin.

Igors
05-26-2006, 10:35 AM
igors, are you looking into brians project, too? whats your take on what is going wrong?All is ok in Animator and Camera (Mac, Dante30), for PC - can't check, we've no Dante
sorry, but this was not about wicker things. it was basicly about NURBS-modeling. well, not really NURBS, but the workflow. stiching together several scrim surfaces, make them blend into one conplex surface. and i am not even saying that this is what i need. i just wanted to know if this would be possible with the current api.Hmm... don't understand what is a "stiching together several scrim surfaces". It depends from algorithm of stitching/merging, not from API. Please explain more details, without them we've not what to answer

BTW: we've a new experimental idea (a bit similar to yours). Rendering/writing..

Igors
05-26-2006, 11:44 AM
Hello, gentlemen

Here is an experimental idea for your consideration. The "key" is: find a way to build source wires automatically. The steps are:

- create ubershape sphere
- "scale and push" its polygons (we use Mrs to do this)
- in Transporter transform polygons in wires

- repeat steps above for several spheres
- use them as array in Scrim

This scenario is a bit heavy (need Mrs + jumps in Transporter). It can be simplified with auxiliary plug-in. But does it make a sense? (i.e. how it's usable?)

bronco
05-26-2006, 11:58 AM
All is ok in Animator and Camera (Mac, Dante30), for PC - can't check, we've no Dante

hmm, wierd. this is how it looks for me:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/dante01.jpg

brian has the same problem, and as far as i know, he is on a mac.


Hmm... don't understand what is a "stiching together several scrim surfaces". It depends from algorithm of stitching/merging, not from API. Please explain more details, without them we've not what to answer

BTW: we've a new experimental idea (a bit similar to yours). Rendering/writing..

imagine two scrim surfaces aligning properly on the U side (they "virtually" share one wire). master/child setups of trestle would make it easy to grand that they line up even when animated. in this case the new plugin would simply smooth the normals across the edge and provide a texturespace that spans acroos both surfaces.
the tricky part is alingning two surfaces that are in different directions. U edge to V edge. and keeping them together even when animated.
i have no clue how this would be doable, but you are the wizards :)

this would allow for nurbs-like patch modeling. i am sure you know the concept.

Igors
05-26-2006, 02:04 PM
hmm, wierd. this is how it looks for me:Please save Dante output as Fact and send usimagine two scrim surfaces aligning properly on the U side (they "virtually" share one wire). master/child setups of trestle would make it easy to grand that they line up even when animated. in this case the new plugin would simply smooth the normals across the edge and provide a texturespace that spans acroos both surfaces.
the tricky part is alingning two surfaces that are in different directions. U edge to V edge. and keeping them together even when animated.Aha, clear now. As we understand, a merge of U-edge with V-edge of surfaces would be much more interested/usable. Note however that just smoothing/averaging normals is not what we need. IMO the correct solution is to add one step more to U-spline (by using adjacent V-surface) and do vice versa for second surface. Technically it's possible but we can't imagine this "conceptually" (now we understand your interest to API). Need to select several Scrims and "coordinate" them. Also we don't know technique for 3 and 4 surfaces (need to read theory). In any case it's too big and complex to be just a Scrim option(s). So, sorry, no way in near future.

Vizfizz
05-26-2006, 02:55 PM
hmm, wierd. this is how it looks for me:
http://www.orangefx.de/ts/dante01.jpg

brian has the same problem, and as far as i know, he is on a mac.


Yup.. this is what I got too. Dante fires out a Trestle Object particle and everything works correctly in Animator. I can affect the particle results with various forces and deformations and get some really interesting variations... I just can't get it to render in Camera. Interesting to know its not a Mac vs PC thing. The first trestle instance above dante is used as a lofting base or anchor. All the Trestle particles are then fired off and lofted as a sequence. Looks great in animator.

The same experiment with particle lofting in PPPro actually renders, but for whatever reason the resulting loft is twisted. I'll try to post something soon.

So Uwe.. just so I understand, you used Dante Wires to loft between with Scrim to achieve your effect? It looks like its emitting trestle particles and lofting between them. How exactly did you achieve what you got if Trestle particle sequence lofting doesn't seem to work for you now...

bronco
05-26-2006, 05:10 PM
the dante output saved as FACT works. (???) attached below.

Aha, clear now. As we understand, a merge of U-edge with V-edge of surfaces would be much more interested/usable. Note however that just smoothing/averaging normals is not what we need. IMO the correct solution is to add one step more to U-spline (by using adjacent V-surface) and do vice versa for second surface. Technically it's possible but we can't imagine this "conceptually" (now we understand your interest to API). Need to select several Scrims and "coordinate" them. Also we don't know technique for 3 and 4 surfaces (need to read theory). In any case it's too big and complex to be just a Scrim option(s). So, sorry, no way in near future.

well, the smoothing across would be a first step as i see it. of course there would be much more work involved.
and i know that this is no simple addition to scrim, therefor the new plugin name -> commissure. or whatever :)
____________

some time ago we discussed the possibilities of multiple wires inside one trestle group.
so, again in theory, would it be possible to introduce Y-shaped forms with this?
imagine the lower end of the Y as one trestle circle and the upper end as two circles inside one trestle graph. all connected via scrim, of course.

a little note to all my suggestions:
i don't want to squeez as much features into trestle and scrim as possible... ok, i do :)
but the main reason for all of this is: it is a pleasure to have modeling capabilities inside EIAS and i think with Trestle and Scrim we have a great foundation on which many different workflows and other plugins can be build. just don't stop here.
____________

So Uwe.. just so I understand, you used Dante Wires to loft between with Scrim to achieve your effect? It looks like its emitting trestle particles and lofting between them. How exactly did you achieve what you got if Trestle particle sequence lofting doesn't seem to work for you now...
sorry, i mixed up screenshots. i made the render only with dante wires, posted it. then i wanted to test trestle, the discussion started and i simply didn't render the project after that, but only made a screenshot to show that indeed Scrim was involved in generating the surface. i should have removed trestle to stay consistent with the posted render. again, sorry for the confusion.

Vizfizz
05-26-2006, 05:25 PM
I'd take a look at it, but I ran off to quickly this morning and left my dongle behind..

So.. you're saying if you export out a trestle particle object and its resulting scrim geometry and re-import it will render... hmm that's unusual. Tells me that Animator is actually generating geometry but something isn't getting properly passed along to Camera. I don't know if its Scrim's fault or if Dante is forgetting something. I'm tending to think that Scrim is getting confused because of the plugin api but I'm no programmer.

I'd really like to see this get fixed. I've also tried creating geometry with Placer deposit, Trestle and Scrim and the same problem occurs. I can place Trestle instances all over a surface and loft between them but I can only see the resulting geometry in OpenGL not in camera... So.. either Blair has a routine that is being mimicked in Dante and Placer that doesn't pass the info to camera or Scrim, being the top node is missing something.