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kossoolli
01-22-2007, 02:52 PM
I'm willing to trust the people involved in this product bridge. Their reputations suggest we are in good hands and if there was going to be a major roadblock they would tell us the project was in danger.

Yes, that my might be true. I suppose everything is working fine.

LemonNado
01-22-2007, 03:01 PM
Just noticed--over 35,000 views of this thread! :eek:
33,859 from Kosso_Olli ;)

lllab
01-22-2007, 03:18 PM
@kosso olli:
as i said before, most things are running very fine already. one thing with the c4d shader support has to be fixed, we need some help from maxon there about mapping,
some parts have to get finished by Renato like DR & some vrayshader etc., and a last update from chaosgroup we need, for support of physical camera, which is needed for physical sky.
so overall we have 95%+ but the last things also take their time i must say, hope you understand...

@georgedrakakis:
thanks very much:-)

Renato did a very very nice work already, the new c4d shader support we would like to keep, but it also needs some extra work. Vlado is so kind and helping with implementing the DR of buckets. Please keep in mind this is a very big project we run here, and it is done by only a small team. so lets give it the time it needs.

cheers
Stefan
VRAYforC4D.com

kossoolli
01-22-2007, 04:55 PM
Thats exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Thanks very much, Stefan!

RenatoT
01-22-2007, 05:59 PM
Hi All,

yes like Stefan told, when the last sdk will come we'll able to implement the physical stuff and the distribuited rendering. Another things will be to implement if possible the instancing so we can render billions poly without too much ram use.

For sure the other PRIMARY thing to do is the OSX release of the bridge.

Some little things to resolve and the vray bridge will be ready to release.

For sure the Bucket DR will take time to do... but the standard net rendering it's working :)

We are sincronized with chaosgroup for all now so i ask you all a bit patience.

Best all
Renato

Stain777
01-22-2007, 06:14 PM
For sure the other PRIMARY thing to do is the OSX release of the bridge.



I don't want to take ANY time away from your work Renato, but I am curious about the OSX implementation. Is there going to be an OSX version of VRAY or is it going to be slaved to a PC for rendering purposes?

As I have C4D on Mac only this is a point of interest for me. I do have VRAY on PC so either implementation would work.

Thanks!

williamsburroughs
01-22-2007, 06:16 PM
A great many thanks to you guys for bringing us VRay to C4D. I really really really appreciate it.

Keep up the great work. You guys are doing a tremendous thing for our community!

Keep Rocking!

lllab
01-22-2007, 06:53 PM
@stain:
vray is already ported by chaosgroup to native on osx UB:-) so no pc is necesarry to render in vray.

cheers
stefan

Stain777
01-22-2007, 08:19 PM
@stain:
vray is already ported by chaosgroup to native on osx UB:-) so no pc is necesarry to render in vray.

cheers
stefan

Great news! Good work you guys, I'm looking forward to making good use of your hard work. Many thanks.

Jershaun
01-29-2007, 06:35 AM
Hi Stefan and Renato

I know I've asked this before and at the risk of being a pest I'd like to ask again.

1. The Vray 1.5 project started in 2004 (correct me if I'm wrong) so will the release of VrayforC4D depend on the release of Vray 1.5 by ChaosGroup, which could mean another 3 years?

2. Will one be able to see Vray Materials (Maps or shaders) in the C4D OpenGL viewport?

Sorry for any wrong terminology but I hope this makes sense.

TIA, Jershaun

thev
01-29-2007, 06:42 AM
...The Vray 1.5 project started in 2004 (correct me if I'm wrong) so will the release of VrayforC4D depend on the release of Vray 1.5 by ChaosGroup, which could mean another 3 years?V-Ray for 3dsmax has nothing to do with V-Ray for Cinema4d or any other V-Ray version. For example, V-Ray for Rhino is already shipping.

Best regards,
Vlado

Jershaun
01-29-2007, 07:06 AM
Thanks for the reply Vlado, much appreciated.:thumbsup:

lllab
01-29-2007, 08:47 AM
Hi,
vray 1.5 is already available,
we are not directly dependend to the maxversion, only through the sdk, which is final.
rhinoc4d 1.5 par example is already shipping since month.

our project started 2006 and we ship 2007.

chaosgroup is developing very fast, but they do this in minor numbers. so other firms would call 1.5 version 7 or 8 i would guess;-) also the vray-"beta"versions are more stable than others finalversion i want to add, most people i know used the inbetween(1.09, 1.4x,x etc) versions of vray for everyday production. so in fact there had been many many updates very regular.

cheers
stefan

p.s. edit- vlado was faster:-)

shtl
01-29-2007, 08:55 AM
Hi Stefan and Renato

...

2. Will one be able to see Vray Materials (Maps or shaders) in the C4D OpenGL viewport?
...



Hi there.
Since you didn't reply I guess it's obvious, but about the OGL preview in view
port, nothing wrong to signal? Is it working more or less fine ?

I also believe I could wait and see, but I'm still very curious: will it be possible to mix some
Vray features with fot exemple the c4d layer fonction or stuff like that, or will the Vray shader will more behave like old Bodhinut shaders?

Jershaun
01-29-2007, 09:00 AM
Thanks for you reply Stefan. That answers it.

What about No. 2. :D

Thanks, Jershaun

lllab
01-29-2007, 12:12 PM
textures are visible in the viewport yes,
c4d shaders of course too,
vray shaders i cant proimise yet.

you will be able to use either c4d or vray shaders. a mix is not possible due to very different kind of shaders. basicly you have the vray shaders,
and as a new bonus we give the support of c4d and thirdparty shaders. maybe at a later point we can add more mixing capabilities.

cheers
stefan

osxman
01-29-2007, 12:44 PM
you will be able to use either c4d or vray shaders. a mix is not possible due to very different kind of shaders. basicly you have the vray shaders,
and as a new bonus we give the support of c4d and thirdparty shaders. maybe at a later point we can add more mixing capabilities.

cheers
stefan
Maybe a stupid question but do you mean that you can't use both C4D and vray-shaders in one scene or that you can't mix them in one material – like using C4D-noise in vray-materials (I was under the impression that it might be possible)?

Jershaun
01-29-2007, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the reply Stefan. :thumbsup:

shtl
01-29-2007, 01:19 PM
Yop Thanks for reply Stephan.
I thought so since it's logical, but wanted to be sure about it.

Thanks again for hard work to both Renato and you. :thumbsup:

LucentDreams
01-29-2007, 05:29 PM
Maybe a stupid question but do you mean that you can't use both C4D and vray-shaders in one scene or that you can't mix them in one material – like using C4D-noise in vray-materials (I was under the impression that it might be possible)?
I was wondering the exact same thing

lllab
01-29-2007, 05:55 PM
its per material slot...
cheers
stefan

p.s. yes noise in vraybrdf works

osxman
01-29-2007, 09:51 PM
Thanks for clearing that out Stefan :) (although I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "material slot").

I have another possibly stupid question for you:
On the preorder page on VrayforC4D.com there's a text to enter in the e-mail along with my name etc. It doesn't say anything about Windows or Mac OSX versions. Does the product include both (would be great of course) or do I specify?

And while we're on the subject, kind of – have you decided if the Vray/brigde license will be tied to a specific Cinema license (like most plug-ins)? Or are we looking at a dongle or a solution like FR2's?

lllab
01-30-2007, 11:22 AM
the license is tied to your cinema license.
no dongle! :-)

as it is tied to c4d license it is os dependend, as long c4d lisence is os dependend.

material slot means the bump mapping, or color, or transparency etc...
cheers
stefan

shtl
01-30-2007, 11:29 AM
...

material slot means the bump mapping, or color, or transparency etc...
cheers
stefan

ow, I didn't got it that way. Thought it was a full Vray shader, or full c4d shader.
So it means that we'd be able to put a c4d shader with for exemple noise in color, and a Vray function in reflection ?

That could be great!

Jershaun
01-30-2007, 11:37 AM
the license is tied to your cinema license.
no dongle! :-)

That's excellent news. :thumbsup:
Can I buy now? :bounce: :)

Ernest Burden
01-30-2007, 11:57 AM
ow, I didn't got it that way. Thought it was a full Vray shader, or full c4d shader.
So it means that we'd be able to put a c4d shader with for exemple noise in color, and a Vray function in reflection ?

FinalRender2 already works that way, you can mix in as much or as little C4D stuff like noise or the surfaces, BUT...that with their native shader system. AR will not render those materials. If you make a regular Cinema material, fr2 will render it (except for certain effects and unfortunately displacement).

Is that how vray/C4D will work?

lllab
01-30-2007, 01:57 PM
in vray it is similar, vray brdf will not be rendered in ar. the c4d shaders and also most thirdpartyshaders can be used in the vraybrdf material.

so in some way it is the same, in some it is other...
cheers
stefan

osxman
01-30-2007, 03:28 PM
the license is tied to your cinema license.
no dongle! :-)
So there won't be any kind of floating license system either?
Will you perhaps offer something like additional "bridge-only"-licenses (connecting to the renderer)?

lllab
01-30-2007, 03:50 PM
well, hmm, people seem to complain about every license system.

we had so much complain about dongles which where initially planned from chaosgroup, and now have the possibility to make it more c4d like, like other plugins. much people complained about floating license system from cebas, and wanted c4d like or dongles... so what is really wanted?

for what i may ask do you want "bridge only" license?
i will have to discuss this with Renato...

cheers
stefan

lllab
01-30-2007, 04:40 PM
please also understand that somehow the license must be limited.

--either like cebas tight to one computer in the network
--or like c4d to one cinema license- you can use this at any pc on any network! ( just not more than once at the same time)
--or we can have a dongle, cost approc 35.-€ more per license ans can only run where the donlgle physically is.


i really thought we make a good thing doing the c4d way?
cheers
stefan

nycL45
01-30-2007, 04:52 PM
i really thought we make a good thing doing the c4d way?
cheers
stefan

Thumbs up for the C4D way.

Other3DMaster
01-30-2007, 04:56 PM
i really thought we make a good thing doing the c4d way?
cheers
stefan

I agree, I think the c4d way is the best way to go... dongles and the cebas way are a nightmare. Great news that you have chosen the c4d method, Stefan.

Shilts
01-30-2007, 05:02 PM
I will add my vote to that as well. The C4D way for sure.

Keeps everything consistent.

philhoole
01-30-2007, 05:12 PM
Please do it the C4D way with serial numbers. I have FR2 and loathe the network card lock.

Afrowave
01-30-2007, 06:06 PM
I like the C4D-like license system. I normally have a Mac OSX system on an external hardisk which I carry to a render site ( many Macs). My assumption is that Vray doesn't max out at a number of processors like Maxwell.

If it is unlimited render slaves this will be totally C4D-like with the licenses in the ~/Library.

Hmmm.... Nice!

fluffouille
01-30-2007, 06:10 PM
Serials the c4d way is definitely the best for the end user. Least hassle out of any solution.

Ernest Burden
01-30-2007, 06:29 PM
the c4d way is the best way to go... dongles and the cebas way are a nightmare.

I couldn't agree more.

osxman
01-30-2007, 09:47 PM
please also understand that somehow the license must be limited.
Of course I understand this :).


--or like c4d to one cinema license- you can use this at any pc on any network! ( just not more than once at the same time)
OK, maybe I've misunderstood something…
If you have 5 licenses (with 5 serial numbers) of C4D, won't the VRay license be tied to only one of them (and effectively only one computer) so that you'll need 5 VRay-licenses to be able to work on any one of them even if it's not simultaneously?

Won't tieing the Vray serial number to the C4D serial number (basing the first on the latter) also tie it to ONE computer?
Or am I confusing license for serial number?

Or am I just generally confused :hmm: :)?

If I've got it wrong then I'm definitely all for a numbers-based system.

for what i may ask do you want "bridge only" license?
The idea is to have your VRay standalone renderer license (protected in whatever way you want, just not tied to a specific C4D serial number) and then you can add one VRay-bridge-license per C4D-license, locally (for perhaps €100 - tied to a specific C4D serial number). I believe this is close to how FR2 works – right (called "Translators")? But if I have misunderstood the whole deal then maybe this isn't necessary?

While I agree that the Cebas-way of protection seems like a PITA I also know of other software (like QuarkXpress) that doesn't need a license server to check that specific licenses are not used simultaneously. When you start the app or in this case perhaps a render the network is checked for other running instances.

----
Stéphane

lllab
01-31-2007, 06:57 AM
well of course it is tied to one c4d, as it is with plugins. you also cannot use a plugin on any c4d.

but you can install your c4d on more than one pc and use it where you want it.-one at a time. so whats the problem. if there are 5 people using 5 c4d versions you need 5 vrays.

what you want is either cebas or dongle system, what we will not use i think, sorry.
if you really want to use vray with 5 different c4d`s you have to buy 5 licenses, sorry yes.

the c4d system is really fair i think, but of course it does not allow sharing of one license for many users. that we donnot offer, sorry. it "floats"for one user.

cheers
stefan

kossoolli
01-31-2007, 07:28 AM
Good decision! Cinema's way of handling licenses and plugins with it's key based system is very good.

ngrava
01-31-2007, 08:02 AM
Actually, the C4D way and the license server way (like Cebas and Vray on Max) amount to the same thing. you have to buy a license for each simultaneous use. neither are tied to a computer.

Say you have 2 licenses with the license server. when you install Vray you specify the server machine it's running on and that it. Each time you run Vray inside Max (or C4D as the case my be) it looks to the license server and checks out a license. Then another person runs Vray from another computer and it checks out a license. if a third person runs Vray on another computer the license server will deny access until one of the other users checks back in their license.

Now with the C4D way there is a slight problem. Say you have 2 license in the form of serial numbers. When you install Vray, you plug the number into C4D on one computer. Then, you go to another machine and install with the other serial. Now say you have a third computer and for some reason you need to run Vray on that machine so you plug in one of the other serial numbers and shutdown C4D on the machine with the original serial number. Now, you can run the third machine's Vray but the original machine can't because when you launch it again, it checks the network to see if anyone else is using that serial and finds it. This might not be such a big issue for 3 computers but what if you 6 or 7 and only 3 license of Vray, there is going to be some juggling of license. This setup is actually quite common in small shops. The question of 'who' is using 'what' serial number and 'where' becomes a little irritating.

The problem with the Cebas's license server is that it just works badly. The Vray license server works very well and is the most flexible option not to mention it has saved our butts a few times too. I think it's a unfortunate that we won't be able to use it but I'm sure I'll live. No big deal. I just don't want people thinking that all license servers are like Cebas.

Thanks!

-=GB=-

osxman
01-31-2007, 09:07 AM
Sorry – double post

osxman
01-31-2007, 09:09 AM
I absolutely understand that you can't allow 5 different users to use Vray simultaneously with only one license. That would mean very bad business for you and Chaosgroup.

Since I feel that I have to write things that aren't "public", I've sent you an email Stefan…

I also found ngrava's post very interesting, especially the part with the VRay license server working great! but I'm wondering if the VRay license server is tied to some hardware (dongle or ethernet-card)? If so there might still be the issue with laptops "out on the field"(?).

Of course I understand that incorporating a license server will add to the development load/time (if it's not already in VRay standalone?).

----
Stéphane

lllab
01-31-2007, 09:10 AM
well, the vray 1.5 needs a dongle also on max!
if you want the vrayfor max license server you also need a dongle.

this was very unwanted by most people. if the majority really wants this we might think about it. but it is either or...

dongle is bad in our sight, i hate dongles, so does Renato. i for example work in the office, at home in the train etc...i often do not have a dongle with me, this is too dangerous to loose. with c4d system i am flexible and can easiliy work where i am. with other software i often have to problem that the dongle always is there where i am not.
also a dongle would raise the prise for at least 35.- euros plus extra shipping cost, as it must be delivered physically.

please understand that in one good way we must protect our software, we still think the c4d way is the most flexible, free one, with less problems and still enough protection due to the linkage to the c4d version.

cheers
stefan

jph
01-31-2007, 09:28 AM
Hi there,

As I remember the discussion on the cebas forum,...we were all not to happy of how the license system works. (A good documentation helps...) The pros and cons were listed above...
An Idea that occured on the forum was to link it to some sort of USB-network adapter, instead of to a card. This way it would serve as a dongle. The user would decide..., it is also cheaper.

Would it be to much of a hassle to give the user the choice, whether he would prefer a networklicensing or serial number solution?

A freelancer would go with a serialnumber, an agnencie would use the serial solution...

ciao Jan

lllab
01-31-2007, 09:30 AM
only as example: if you buy advanced render you can also use it "only" on one c4d license.

same with mograph, hair, s&t etc...
so when it is fair for this i hope it is also for our project.

cheers
stefan

lllab
01-31-2007, 09:34 AM
" Would it be to much of a hassle to give the user the choice"

yes to be honest.

we are a small project with limited resources, we cannot implement and handle different protection systems, hope you understand. maybe at a later point, but for now Renato has enough work already.

Stefan

moka.studio
01-31-2007, 09:44 AM
Hi Stefan,
reading up on the Vray info again, it says that it supports 10 render nodes pers license for distributed rendering.
Does this mean 10 Cpu's or 10 stations ( since most nowadays are dual or quad core, this does make a big difference...)
thanks for the info,

lllab
01-31-2007, 09:50 AM
hi moka,
i have to ask this,
i dont know yet how this is in vray.

in FR as you know it is cores not pcs, probably it will be similar,
i personally would like 10 pcs. lets see.

cheers
stefan

moka.studio
01-31-2007, 10:13 AM
hi moka,
i have to ask this,
i dont know yet how this is in vray.

in FR as you know it is cores not pcs, probably it will be similar,
i personally would like 10 pcs. lets see.

cheers
stefan

Yes I know about FR,
I hope this will be rethought in general by developers, since the typical amount of cores has changed on workstations.
By the way congradulations on your website, some very nice work there !
best

lllab
01-31-2007, 10:19 AM
thanks moka:-)

yes we soon have multicore chips, so sooner than later it will be that all have to count sockets not cores...if i can decide it for vray it will be sockets for sure.

cheers
stefan

thev
01-31-2007, 11:43 AM
With V-Ray for 3dsmax specifically, licensing is always per machine, no matter how many sockets or CPUs.

Best regards,
Vlado

kossoolli
01-31-2007, 11:57 AM
Well, why don't we start a poll about the licensing system? I think that would be the best way, because the users can decide what they want.

leed
01-31-2007, 12:57 PM
as soon as you start designing by poll you will end up in trouble.

If you trust, as I do, the people developing the plugin let them decide what is the best way to distribute it.

Lee

Srek
01-31-2007, 01:15 PM
as soon as you start designing by poll you will end up in trouble.

If you trust, as I do, the people developing the plugin let them decide what is the best way to distribute it.
Quoted for agreement

Cheers
Björn

moka.studio
01-31-2007, 01:25 PM
With V-Ray for 3dsmax specifically, licensing is always per machine, no matter how many sockets or CPUs.

Best regards,
Vlado

this is very fair,
thanks for the info

lllab
01-31-2007, 01:48 PM
good!
so it is DR for 10 machines for VrayforC4d too:-)

cheers
Stefan

p.s. that can make 40cpu's with the new intel quads or even 80 cpu with 10 octos, with one license only!!!

georgedrakakis
01-31-2007, 03:08 PM
hi Stefan,
can you estimate (by your own tests) how fast or how slow is vraybridge compared with AR or FR?
and if you load an old scene, is the outcome different ?
( i mean in terms of different scale in bumps, noises, displacement, etc.)

kossoolli
01-31-2007, 03:16 PM
I'd like t know what the AA is like. The AA of FR is crap. AR can get better results in less time. The AA is the killer for animations for me. FR is great for stills, though.

lllab
01-31-2007, 03:34 PM
well, i can only give very personal views,

vray is much faster than AR when using GI. it is built for GI rendering.
FR might be faster in some areas regarding the gi calculation, but is slower in the shading-rendering phase. so i dont know in the end which is faster, both are very fast with the correct settings.

quality wise vray has for me the best image, GI , bumb and AA qualiy beside maxwell.
but also at good speeds, and also for animation.

opening an old AR scene and rendering in vray is not possible sorry. you need the vraybrdf material. for me vray looks lot better(naturally;-).

cheers
stefan

kossoolli
01-31-2007, 04:10 PM
Good to hear!

That has always been the problem with FR: Fast in GI, slower in normal render pass. And the bad speed/quality ratio of the AA. I think Vray perfectly fits my needs.

moka.studio
01-31-2007, 04:18 PM
I'd like t know what the AA is like. The AA of FR is crap. AR can get better results in less time. The AA is the killer for animations for me. FR is great for stills, though.

exactly what problems are you having with AA in FR?
Which algorithm are you using? - Catmull?

lllab
01-31-2007, 04:33 PM
yes AA in FR isnt bad for me either....
cheers
stefan

kossoolli
01-31-2007, 05:54 PM
I tried to render an animation of a car, and I always had problems with the AA at the front grill. I used the following settings: min/max: 1/3, threshold:3, jitter:50%, sinc at 0,7 for x/y. One frame took about 7min to render on my X2 with 2,75GHz per core without the GI pass (GI solution was saved on HD before). Now I rendered it in AR without GI, and it needed around 90sec. per frame. The AA quality is much better, even at the lower rendertimes and the lack of GI is hardly visible. I can post some comparison images later.

lllab
01-31-2007, 06:28 PM
well lets keep it on topic, post this in an extra thread.
without gi Ar is the fastest no question:-)

about AA, sinc is not good for animation i think, i at least use it only for stills.

cheers
stefan

moka.studio
01-31-2007, 07:08 PM
your are right, the thread is not about FR, sorry for the deviation.
Kosso, if you have some issues with the AA and have a exemple scene I can have a look at, I will do so and post an regarding it at the FR betaforum.

ngrava
02-01-2007, 06:09 AM
Wow! Vlado posted here?! He's the developer of Vray for those who didn't realize.

Anyway, I've been using all sorts of renderers for many, many years now. Mental Ray, LightWave, final Render, AR, Vray, PRRenderMan and 3Delight. I very often get the chance to work with people who are used to other renderers and will swear that their renderer of choice is at least as good if not better then Vray. In most cases, I have proven to them that Vray is faster, better quality, and easer to use. The main reason for this is simply that Vlado has optimized the hell out of his basic ray-trace algorithm. This effects the whole system because... well, obviously everything is based on ray-tracing. ;)

Here is just a simple example: When you want a highlight on an object you turn up the reflectivity. Then, you have a parameter for glossiness. as you turn this down the highlight gets wider just as in real life. This is all done with ray-tracing reflected and scattered rays. And, this is actually how surfaces work in the real world. There is no real phenomenon called specularity. Surfaces are either Specular (mirror) or diffuse (Matte) or somewhere inbetween. Some computer scientist made up the algorithm as a way to fake the real effect of reflections on surfaces. A specular highlight is really just a refection of a light source on the surface of an object. So Vlado figured, why not just do it the way it's done in real life; with reflection? Vray's ray tracing in Vray is so fast that you don't even notice that that's what's happening. Try that in AR. On every surface that needs specularity, use reflection and dispersion (not really the right term by the way) and see what happens.

There are a multitude of other reasons I like Vray but that one's a pretty big deal if you think about it.

About License server: I didn't even think about the issue of Laptops and moving computers around. In that case, a license server can be very annoying. Just thinking about this now I realize that the serial number idea is a much better design. Currently, I have no way to take stuff home and working on it there because I'm out of reach of the license server.

LucentDreams
02-01-2007, 06:52 AM
can't speak for studio environment, but for myself, I use my laptop as my license server for AIR. This way its always with me and if I have to work in a school or studio I can install my set number and have a render farm, then when I'm done and take my laptop, those air installations are useless and can be uninstalled.

rsquires
02-01-2007, 10:04 AM
I don't care if I have to tattoo my serial number to my forehead with two dongles in my ears.

Just bring it on!!


please

regards

rich

lllab
02-01-2007, 10:19 AM
:-)

we try our best, but it is a big project with a lot to do...

cheers
stefan

castroman
02-01-2007, 11:46 AM
I don't care if I have to tattoo my serial number to my forehead with two dongles in my ears.

Just bring it on!!


please

regards

rich



Laughed so hard I almost fell of the chair :))

georgedrakakis
02-01-2007, 02:05 PM
opening an old AR scene and rendering in vray is not possible sorry. you need the vraybrdf material. for me vray looks lot better(naturally;-).
cheers
stefan
thanks stefan for the quick responce.
is switching to vraybrdf material a PITA?

@ rsquires : i love your proposal for the new licence system.
it would be a good idea for a tattoo related contest.

lllab
02-01-2007, 02:48 PM
i can only give my personal brdf has much more controll for me, switching back to something non brdf like is a pita;-)

well, beside joke,
vray is a very mighty and complex "pro"- renderengine. for somebody who has used a lot of engines it is quite easy to learn, for beginners it is better to plan some time to learn it good.

we will give a libary to start and learn materials with it...

cheers
stefan

lllab
02-01-2007, 02:54 PM
...and yes, we will change to rsquires - tatoo-doubledongle license scheme!
;-)
Stefan

jph
02-01-2007, 07:09 PM
...so all shaders in vray are based on brdf?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSDF

Does that mean that I could use the BSDF / brdf data that is being measured from a realworld surface?

p.s. BTW, I just had to reinstall Final render and Ip clamp, the more often I do it the easier it gets..., cause I don't rely on the documentation anymore. If the documentation was good in the first place, nobody would have complained...


ciao Jan

lllab
02-01-2007, 10:40 PM
the brdf material is the main material. shaders are used in the channels.
the material has brdf itself, also volume transparency. no shader needed for that.

cheers
stefan

jph
02-02-2007, 09:18 AM
Hi Stefan,

I just called the folks from Spheron ( http://www.spheron.com ), to ask them how they support the BRDF...
http://www.spheron.com/spheron/public/en/rbv_spheronbrdf/rbv_spheronbrdf.php

So far they only support Mental Ray..., Spheron is not intrested so far to write a translater for Vray (due to some leagal issues...).
So I was wondering if there is an intersted from your side? As far as I have understood there is not standard of measuring and documenting the data so far.

...Are there any databases with brdf data to be used anywhere?

ciao Jan

thev
02-02-2007, 03:43 PM
The main problem with measured BRDFs is that the hardware for scanning a sample material is very expensive and the procedure is complicated. So, if someone has the necessary technology, it is unlikely that they will share the results for free.

There are one or two tabulated BRDFs on the site of the standford University, but beyond that, there isn't much data available.

As far as V-Ray is concerned, it is not too difficult to write a general BRDF plugin that renders a scanned BRDF. Getting the data is a more serious issue.

AAAron
02-05-2007, 11:53 PM
Now I' m part of the arms race too:thumbsup::scream:

tonare
02-07-2007, 04:20 AM
Will this be a plug-in/bridge to Vray(meaning we will have to purchase your's and Renato's product)?
Or will this be the whole package like FR-2 is now?

fluffouille
02-07-2007, 06:29 AM
It's been said several times that it will be the plugin and the application bundled together.

lllab
02-07-2007, 08:59 AM
thanks fluffy;-)

yes it is a full package, you get everything you need inside, all you need is c4d!

the price includes the plugin, which incorporates the latest vrayrenderegine 1.5:-)

as said we workhard - at the moment the physical sky+physical camera (similar to maxwell)-a feature i love is getting implemented.

cheers
Stefan

tonare
02-07-2007, 09:29 PM
It's been said several times that it will be the plugin and the application bundled together.

I don't know about you, but I dont the time to go through 39 pages to find that info lol. Thanks though.:)

@llab
The only reason I had asked is, that on the Chaosgroup site there is no price list, so usually when there are no price list's for products, you can almost be certain that the price will be pretty steep.

Good to know though, and I cant wait for this. :D

LemonNado
02-08-2007, 02:04 AM
Another 'dumb' question... I have more than C4D as 3D Package. Can I use that Vray license also for those? Is there a way to get the other 'plugins'. I am refering to existing plugins for Max e.g.. Or is this particular VRay version limited to the use with the C4D Bridge. Sorry is that's been asked before.
Cheers
Rainer

lllab
02-08-2007, 07:43 AM
no each vray product is separeted sorry.

maybe you can get a reduced price for the other plugins from chaosgroup. i will try to make some system for this with vlado.
but be clear to biggest part of the price is for the plugin, not for the standalone part. so you might save max 200.- euros or so. this is setup so from chaosgroup as the plugins are very much work. the rhino-vray is a totally seperated thing.

hope you understand...
cheers
stefan

rob rhodes
02-08-2007, 12:12 PM
Illab, So sorry if this has been asked before but its such a huge thread...... does Vray do cel shading - kind of like cinemas but with a bit more feature adjustment capability like adjusting line thickness? I like to use cel shading mainly for its line work in an arch viz concept model type thing - we don't have sketch n toon at work and in any case that can sometimes take too long to calculate lines etc. If Vray had a similar function then I would find less need to buy AR and just get Vray for its gi speed for flythoughs.

Cheers

lllab
02-08-2007, 01:39 PM
well i definitly recommend sketch and toon.
this is one of the best cellshaders out there, and it is avaiable for c4d already:-)
it is also very fast if used correctly, at least for me, i use it very often and love it.
especially simpel outline shading is unbeatable fast with high quality.

as the vrayoutput is pixelexact with sketch and toon you can also easily comp them.
vray itself is a deticated highend gi renderengine, no cell shader.

cheers
stefan

LemonNado
02-08-2007, 01:57 PM
no each vray product is separeted sorry.


All good. I just wanted to know. I need it for C4D anyways.
Cheers
Rainer

ngrava
02-12-2007, 05:34 AM
Illab, So sorry if this has been asked before but its such a huge thread...... does Vray do cel shading - kind of like cinemas but with a bit more feature adjustment capability like adjusting line thickness? I like to use cel shading mainly for its line work in an arch viz concept model type thing - we don't have sketch n toon at work and in any case that can sometimes take too long to calculate lines etc. If Vray had a similar function then I would find less need to buy AR and just get Vray for its gi speed for flythoughs.

Cheers

Sketch and toon for Cinema is by far one of the best Cell/NPR shaders out there. I once had to do a butt load of research to find the best toon shader on any platform. I looked at finalToon, Mental ray(via maya and xsi) and vray's built in cell shaders (not even worth it), and several cell shaders from with in Max and lightwave. finalToon is really the only real competitor and has some really nice features. There is another one for Maya that's pretty good called "Tom Cat". It uses Paint effects so there is an amazing amount of control. Unfortunately, it was to difficult for me to use so I gave up on it pretty quickly.

So, to answer your questions, Vray's toon isn't really very useful. It's nothing more then an edge and fill shader. Sketch and toon For Arch/vis stuff is really the way to go. You would be really hard pressed to find a better sketch shader.

-=GB=-

v-empire
02-12-2007, 07:13 AM
Hi,
will third party shaders like the Evermotion shaders for 3ds/vray1.5
be usable?

(Link: http://www.evermotion.org/shop_display_item.php?item=225)

Regards

Holger

lllab
02-12-2007, 08:25 AM
well not directly, those are maxmaterials using vray shaders and textures.
maybe at a later point we can think of a converter of max-vraymaterials, but first the main project has to be done.

but you can transpose them by yourself or we might even do some of the better ones.
the settings are similar as it is the same engine, although we have another interface(more c4d like).

cheers
stefan

Wokka
02-14-2007, 12:04 PM
Just pluggin in to get some notification. There seems to be a lot of guys hanging out for this release and holding off making decision's on FR or wait for Vray, (like me).

Cheers
Warwick
3DE

lllab
02-14-2007, 01:28 PM
Hi Wokka,

we work hard on it, at the moment physical camera, sun and sky get made, also we update to latest vraysdk.

i am not unbiased of course;-)
but to be honest i would suggest getting both FR AND Vray, both are great.
FR is a nice and fast package.
qualitywise i personally think vray is an unbeaten package.
it offers near maxwellquailty with more controll and much more speed.

in contrary to FR we offer a 10 pc-rendernodelicense, that can be rendering with up to 80cpu-cores today with one vray-license:-)

cheers
Stefan

nycL45
02-14-2007, 06:33 PM
...we offer a 10 pc-rendernodelicense, that can be rendering with up to 80cpu-cores today with one vray-license:-)

Now you are teasing us – and laughing! Not fair. Where is my yellow card.

;-)

Shane W
02-16-2007, 02:19 AM
Hi Stefan, you mentioned in a previous post that net render is working with Vray. Can you view the Vray buffer on the clinet machine. One problem I have with AR is if you have a long render running on a client you have no idea of it's progress.

Thanks,

-Shane

RenatoT
02-18-2007, 03:54 PM
Hi Stefan, you mentioned in a previous post that net render is working with Vray. Can you view the Vray buffer on the clinet machine. One problem I have with AR is if you have a long render running on a client you have no idea of it's progress.

Thanks,

-Shane

Hi all,

SHane: the VrayRendering net workflow is exactly like the AR Rendering :)

Cheers
Renato

Ernest Burden
02-18-2007, 03:58 PM
the VrayRendering net workflow is exactly like the AR Rendering :)

Meaning you can't see it or know anything about how it's progressing?

lllab
02-18-2007, 06:10 PM
well we cannot change the way maxons netrender works. if maxon updates it it would be great of course.

at the moment you have two possibilities:

1) you render via DR- this is over buckets with a maximum of 10PC (or 80cpus) per license,
this is good for still images but also for animation, for this you have instant preview of the buckets.

2) you do it the traditional c4d way and render via NET. this is for animation.
it works good, and you see the results of each finished frame finished as you do in c4d itself.you dont see the rendering of the frame itself. i personally think that is not too bad for animation as you normally have a maximum of 10-20minutes per frame for animation.
net is more efficient for huge renderfarms with 20-100pcs or so...

for stills use DR
for animation it is your choice: either DR or NET.

in DR you see each bucket rendering of course...:-)
cheers
Stefan

Ernest Burden
02-18-2007, 06:56 PM
at the moment you have two possibilities:

net is more efficient for huge renderfarms with 20-100pcs or so...


That's quite clear, thanks. I think that's the same way fr2 works. They mention net but I've never tried it.

With animation, you should have a pretty good idea what is expected per frame, so I agree that its less of an issue. NetRender is a problem when you send large stills to different machines and get no feedback as the hours go by, very stressing.

The obvious question is with the licencing. Using C4D net would you be able to use as many machines as your net licence? I have the 'unlimited' one since I bought the 'studio' bundle. I don't actually have very many machines but if I could get 1 million supposedly I could use them all for net. 10 PCs is great to begin with, of course. But unlimited if you use NetRender?

lllab
02-18-2007, 07:03 PM
-- well it is 10 pcs per license with any number of cpus for DR.

-- and for net it is the same as with max and backburner, which is i guess unlimited yes. or as many netclients you can serve with you c4d -netserver. in your case unlimited.

with fr you can render with net in the same way, only it is not included with one license, you need one license per net client-machine.

cheers
Stefan

LemonNado
02-18-2007, 09:52 PM
Well, I thought that the bucket render thing is the coolest thing since the invention of sliced bread. Till I started larger rendering jobs on MR and FR2. The problem is that all the changed scene data (frame by frame) has to be downloaded to the clients. Sad surprise. The result is that you end up compressing and transfering data most of the time compared to rendering. The netrender aproach is better as every system is crunchig along on it's own sequence. The downside is that you do not monitor progress in realtime. but you can look at the last frames with the preview if you render into single images which is the best anyways. I am using the bucket rendering only for tweaking. Then all get the initial download and then render complete sections. There is still a bit simulation time sometimes which is calculated multiple times if you take a global look athte entire render system. But that's still nothing compared to the compress and distribute seizure the system has when bucket rendering.
Rainer


PS:Cmon... release the darn thing! GAHHHH. I'm so excited.

lllab
02-19-2007, 07:27 AM
well dr-bucketrenderingis unbeatable for stills.
i use it for everyday production.

but it also works quite good for animation specially flythroughs, i have made several animation with it.

in the end the user has the choise. for animation it is true that net render is a bit more efficient. for stills DR-bucketrendering is more efficient.

cheers
Stefan

LemonNado
02-19-2007, 12:22 PM
Netrender makes no sense for stills. Except you would like to see the speed difference of several systems regarding that single frame. When calculating animations rendering has to be closely monitored to prevent tht administrative times do not surpass the actual render time. It happened twice to me and when I found out what the culprit was I felt like an idiot. I rendered a still and allocated render time accordingly. Once the render wsa started and I came back to the system at the expected finish time the darn thing only rendered 30% as it was very busy shoving data back and forth. Grrrrrrr. Live and learn 8).
Rainer

Neil V
02-19-2007, 01:49 PM
Just revisited the http://www.vrayforc4d.com site and there looks like there's been some great progress. Those screenshots have been teasing the hell out of me! Looks great.

Neil V

pzdm
02-19-2007, 02:40 PM
Just revisited the http://www.vrayforc4d.com (http://www.vrayforc4d.com/) site and there looks like there's been some great progress. Those screenshots have been teasing the hell out of me! Looks great.

Neil V

It is a mental torture of C4D users only :-)

Pavel

seco7
02-21-2007, 07:49 PM
well not directly, those are maxmaterials using vray shaders and textures.
maybe at a later point we can think of a converter of max-vraymaterials, but first the main project has to be done.

but you can transpose them by yourself or we might even do some of the better ones.
the settings are similar as it is the same engine, although we have another interface(more c4d like).

cheers
stefan

How about a conversion for the Evermotion Archinteriors ... I drool every time they release a new one, even though they are Max/Vray? Does anyone know who produces these and if they would be open to expanding the collection now that vray is a standalone?

Wishful thinking?

Steve

paulselhi
02-22-2007, 01:26 AM
err..that would be Evermotion !!!

vesalus
02-22-2007, 05:56 AM
whilst beeing quite enthusiastic toward evermotion works, it seems that they push the setting rather toward brute force than fine tuning from what i read on chaos group forum...anyway any information will be welcome when the time will come :)


soon? :bounce:

kossoolli
02-22-2007, 07:24 PM
Does the Vray matte material/option work with vrayforc4d? Just curious, because it seems to be a nice feature for compositing

seco7
02-23-2007, 03:56 PM
err..that would be Evermotion !!!

I read somewhere (I cannot find the link at the moment) that another firm actually makes the Archinteriors complete with materials etc and Evermotion just markets them.

SystemofaDown
02-23-2007, 06:58 PM
Will there be VrayBlendMTL? It lets you blend like 10 materials together. You can get realy nice results with it and i think it would be a great addition to this already great plug-in.

Shane W
02-23-2007, 11:59 PM
Hi stefan, will the Vray plugin for Cinema support Multipass rendering to a .psd file?

Thanks,

-Shane

kossoolli
02-25-2007, 07:17 PM
Mmh, no answers? Strange...

belushy
02-25-2007, 08:53 PM
girls and boys

sorry for that

RenatoT
02-25-2007, 11:11 PM
Hi stefan, will the Vray plugin for Cinema support Multipass rendering to a .psd file?

Thanks,

-Shane

I haven't work on this part for now... but i will do :)

Cheers
Renato

Ernest Burden
02-25-2007, 11:44 PM
I haven't work on this part for now... but i will do

Good, becasue multipass is a really useful thing.

Thanks for the post!

STRAT
02-26-2007, 07:13 AM
just make it faster than C4D's ;)

m.p. rendering in cinema can take aaaaaaaaages depending on which/how many layers

kossoolli
02-26-2007, 07:25 AM
When could we expect the thing to be released?

lllab
02-26-2007, 12:49 PM
hi all,
sorry, i didnt answer, because of weekend, and i alos had celebrated my birthday.
so i wasnt in the internet...

Renato answered anyway.

about releasetime, as i said often, i will post when we have a dedicated release date.
all before is just guess and wishing. the project is very far, but also the last 5% take much work, refinement etc...
hope you understand.

cheers
stefan

georgedrakakis
02-26-2007, 09:20 PM
happy birthday Stefan.
did you ever made speed comparison tests among AR, FR and Vraybridge?

lllab
02-27-2007, 08:41 AM
thanks:-)

yes of course i did compare different scenes.
AR can't compete in gi rendering. it is relatively fast though without GI though, bit faster than FR. i love sketch and toon

FR ist fastest if there is only one or 2 lights, gets slower if you have a higher number of lights. the light /GI quality is a lot nicer than AR. it is very adjustable like vray.

Vray is very close speedwise to FR with just a view lights and faster with higher number of lights, also the quality of vray is unbeaten for me, the motionblur, dof, AA, surfaces etc...it is a very professional product with a very even quality through the whole renderengine. also for animation it has good rendertimes with high quality.

i am of course not unbiased;-)
so see this as my personal experience...
cheers
stefan

ThePriest
02-27-2007, 09:10 AM
Lots of question popping up, so I don't want to bother you too much.


Question -
Would it be possible through some kind of compositing tag
to keep original Cinema 4d elements in the scene that are not
going to be able to make the transition to VRay, such as Hair,
Storm Tracer, Pyrocluster? Given matched lighting, or just duplicates
it could potentially be an amazing feature.

I can't believe it's been almost a year since I first posted about the desire to
have a VRay connection to Cinema 4D and now it's close to becoming a reality.
Take your time guys - no pressure here! We'd all prefer a solid piece of software rather than
something half broken.

Keep up the promising work.

AAAron
02-27-2007, 05:38 PM
From the vrayforc4d page:


:::It is planned to make the standard cameras pixel exact matching with the Vray camera, so that we still can have the benefits of great MAXON features like Sketch & Toon, Hair, Vue fusion etc.
If you render them separately in C4d with correct alphas you should be able to match them in a compositing app.

rizon
02-27-2007, 06:18 PM
Some people that work often with vray said it is fast for GI but from the moment you use a lot of objects with reflection it slows down a lot...

How is this compared with AR?
Is vray slower then AR when using reflection or refraction?

Thanks!

Can't wait...

SystemofaDown
02-27-2007, 08:48 PM
Uhh humm. Dont ignore my question please. Will we be able to blend or mix materials together like with vrayblendmat?

ThePriest
02-27-2007, 10:13 PM
Some people that work often with vray said it is fast for GI but from the moment you use a lot of objects with reflection it slows down a lot...

How is this compared with AR?
Is vray slower then AR when using reflection or refraction?

Thanks!

Can't wait...

Glossy reflections will slow things down, non glossy reflections won't touch it,
but you'd be hard pressed to find those kinds of materials in a real life situation,
almost everything has a little blurriness to it.

And certainly no where near as slow as AR, even with it's speed up.

lllab
02-28-2007, 08:13 AM
well as in all engines glossy reflections need a bit more than non glossy, but they are still fast. definitly way faster than glossy reflections (+GI) in AR ,if you use correct settings.

the blendmaterial should be in at the end yes, we soon have a new internal testeversion, i hope it is there already.

i know a lot of you are eagerly waiting for the release, as often said we work very hard on these, but please remember we are a small team and it is a huge project, hope you understand this.

cheers
Stefan

pzdm
02-28-2007, 08:30 AM
well as in all engines glossy reflections need a bit more than non glossy, but they are still fast. definitly way faster than glossy reflections (+GI) in AR ,if you use correct settings.

the blendmaterial should be in at the end yes, we soon have a new internal testeversion, i hope it is there already.

i know a lot of you are eagerly waiting for the release, as often said we work very hard on these, but please remember we are a small team and it is a huge project, hope you understand this.

cheers
Stefan

Hi Stefan
I believe everyone from "informed users" understands you, but I believe that many users can´t wait, becouse projects can´t wait. I told many our costumers "Vray comes soon", in november, in december, januar... I know, it is really huge project for you and Renato, but maybe will be some "progress status report" fine for us. I know you work hard, I don´t want to push you. Sorry and thumbs up!

Have a nice day, Pavel

lllab
02-28-2007, 08:56 AM
yes sure that would be fine.

but software development is too uncertain i learned now to give dates in advance.
so i stopped giving estimates, i will tell when the release is very very near, everything would be just a guess.

be sure we are at the very last points, adding the last extra vrayshaders, the DR(this is sadly some work), physical camera sun&sky(almost done) and we try to cleanup all potential bugs. but exactly those points cost time too and are very hard to plan timewise.

vray will change the way to render in c4d for many of us for the next years and also bring new users to cinema. it is a longterm project. and we want to make it good. we just have togive it the time it needs. be sure i want it final as much as all of you:-)


cheers
stefan

Isugath
02-28-2007, 10:40 AM
Hey! Thank you very much for your great project, and we hope its finished soon! But better take the time it needs to be really good ;)

But i have an important question: How many CPUs will be supported by vray?
And if there are only 4 CPUs or something like this are supported, will there be an unlimeted licence?

Thank you!
David

Shademaster
02-28-2007, 10:51 AM
yes sure that would be fine.

but software development is too uncertain i learned now to give dates in advance.
so i stopped giving estimates, i will tell when the release is very very near, everything would be just a guess.

be sure we are at the very last points, adding the last extra vrayshaders, the DR(this is sadly some work), physical camera sun&sky(almost done) and we try to cleanup all potential bugs. but exactly those points cost time too and are very hard to plan timewise.

vray will change the way to render in c4d for many of us for the next years and also bring new users to cinema. it is a longterm project. and we want to make it good. we just have togive it the time it needs. be sure i want it final as much as all of you:-)


cheers
stefan

Take whatever time you need! Just keep us drooling with some fancy pancy WIP's please :D.

Good luck!

lllab
02-28-2007, 11:15 AM
as often said here- unlimited cpus per machine...
for dr 10 machines per license, that makes up to 80 cpus with dual quad intels or opterons with one license,
cheers
stefan

pillemann
03-01-2007, 12:09 AM
cant wait :cry:

AdamT
03-01-2007, 12:16 AM
as often said here- unlimited cpus per machine...
for dr 10 machines per license, that makes up to 80 cpus with dual quad intels or opterons with one license,
cheers
stefan
It's worth noting that this is a huge advantage over fR-2, which requires a full license for each network machine. You can bucket render with more cpus, but that's not a good solution for animation (the scene has to be "prepared", "compressed", and sent over the network every frame).

sketchbook
03-01-2007, 06:57 AM
dang, i am so ready! thanks for the heads up!

Isugath
03-01-2007, 08:57 AM
Sorry for asking this question again.. Thank you lllab! Really great..
We preordered yesterday ;)

DanieleF
03-01-2007, 11:35 AM
Just to answer some of the questions: lllab already talked about the supported number of cpus and machines, so no need to repeat (and I think that for a single license this a huge rendering power, isn't it?); for the OSX version don't worry, it could be released in the same time of the windows version or shortly after. We are working (Renato and me) hard to release a great product to make you able to use this amazing rendering engine. Just wait some more and then...

Cheers

osxman
03-01-2007, 12:49 PM
Just to answer some of the questions: lllab already talked about the supported number of cpus and machines, so no need to repeat (and I think that for a single license this a huge rendering power, isn't it?); for the OSX version don't worry, it could be released in the same time of the windows version or shortly after. We are working (Renato and me) hard to release a great product to make you able to use this amazing rendering engine. Just wait some more and then...

Cheers

Hi Daniele and welcome to CGTalk! It's very nice to finally "meet" the third member of the heroic VRayForC4D-group.

Couldn't agree more about the rendering-power per license being top-notch!

About the OSX-version; I can certainly understand why Mac users (like me) are skeptical about the "promised" time frame when thinking of FR2 for Mac which is a similar product with similar capabilities. The thing here is that while FR2 has to be created from the ground up for the MAC. VRay for Mac OSX is already finished (even though most of us haven't seen any REAL proof of this, only screenshots?) and you're "only" connecting it to C4D.

In that perspective it would be very interesting to know how long it took to bring VRay to the Mac. Any chance you could share that info Vlado?

Now I'll go back to waiting for my preorder to materialize. Although it's sometimes a "tough job" it's probably a breeze compared to the hard work you are doing for us C4D-users. Just know that it's appreciated!

Cheers,
Stéphane

lllab
03-01-2007, 12:58 PM
yes as Daniele says,

we are very far, but there is still DR to finish, and we have to test.
my mailboy just exploded;-)
please have some more patience, as i said when it is realy close i will post it here and elsewhere, be sure;-)

cheers;-)
stefan

lllab
03-01-2007, 01:03 PM
vlado said it was very easy for him, dont know if this is days, weeks or whatever;-)
but he is a crazy good developer....

for all, win and macrelease pleeease some more patience, it will come, sooner than later...

cheers
stefan

lllab
03-01-2007, 01:50 PM
as i am testing finished physical sky at the moment i can say you will love this:-)

it is directly linked with c4d sun, just type in date and time, turn on gi and render beautyfull outdoor scenes almost realtime:-)
the camera works with ISO, shutter speed and real dof if you want, white balance like a real world camera....heehe -i love this!

daniele did a excellent job with this!

have to test further:-)
cheers
stefan

fluffouille
03-01-2007, 02:06 PM
Oh, you're such a tease :)

STRAT
03-01-2007, 02:21 PM
as i am testing finished physical sky at the moment i can say you will love this:-)

daniele did a excellent job with this!

have to test further:-)
cheers
stefan

can i have a test too? please?

bmd3d
03-01-2007, 02:32 PM
as i am testing finished physical sky at the moment i can say you will love this:-)

it is directly linked with c4d sun, just type in date and time, turn on gi and render beautyfull outdoor scenes almost realtime:-)
the camera works with ISO, shutter speed and real dof if you want, white balance like a real world camera....heehe -i love this!

daniele did a excellent job with this!

have to test further:-)
cheers
stefan

Sounds very good !
Do you also test this on Mac or only PC ?
In other words: is the mac version developed simultaneously ?

An important feature of C4D is being able to render a multipass psd
From what i read here, Vray is also able to do this.
Is there a website with more info about what kind of layers Vray writes out ?
(checked with the chaosgroup website but can't find anything about it)
Does the C4D4Vray-connection support this multipass psd option ?

Thanks for doing this and keeping an open communication about it

kossoolli
03-01-2007, 03:19 PM
That sounds nice!

You have to promise that there will be delivered a carpint mat together with the bridge, that's what I need most :)

There will be a car paint preset, right?:shrug:I don't want to mess around with various max prestes to put the paint together in C4D.

vid2k2
03-01-2007, 05:49 PM
I eagerly volunteer to be a mac beta tester :)

ngrava
03-01-2007, 10:13 PM
Anyone care to write up an FAQ? Could solve a lot of the "It's already been mentioned here" issue. This thread is huge!

-=GB=-

e[dub]
03-01-2007, 10:30 PM
yeah, can I get a synopsis of the last 44 pages, please? ;)

lllab
03-02-2007, 09:38 AM
i try to sum up the most important things:

::vrayforc4d is a fully integrated highend renderengine for cinema 4d 9.6+&v10+ macosx and winxp+32+64bit, it can work as your default renderengine
::it will have vrayshaders AND most c4d shaders supported, also most 3rd party shader you have will work. so it has more powerfull shaders actually than the maxversion-best from bothworlds;-) we will also add shaders in updates
:: one license serves for unlimted cpus per machine and for unlimited NETrender
:: one license allows for distributed rendering over 10 machines, each having unlimited cpus. that would allow 10 octocore (= 80!cpus) pcs with one license, or also 20 pcs with 2 licenses etc...
::vray has a physical sky and sun system and camera similar to maxwell, but you can move the sun as you want. the camera has real motionblur, and reacts with iso, fstop, shutterspeed. that means you can adjust the overall lightness of the scene by iso or shutterspeed by example. or the real DOF or motionblur. both have very good quality. the physical sky and sun can be used with cinema sun easily.
:: vray has a lot of highend GI features for your choise and produces also animations with GI in reasonable time, you can choose and even mix biased and unbiased methods.
:: vray has a highend material description the vray brdf materialsystem. the vray brdf material is integrated into cinema userinterface and behaves just like any normal c4d material. you have to use vraybrdf for vray renderings. it has much more controll than c4d materials.
:: in the vraybrdf material you can use vrayshaders AND c4d shaders like the layershader, all noises, surfaceshaders etc. Renato also has ideas to support proximal etc in updates...
:: vray has very nice real subdivision displacement, which is also fast.
::vray has vrayproxies that will be supported either in v1 or in an update (1.1) afterwards. vray proxy is good to render a million highpoly cars or trees( awood p.e.) etc. it is what is called "real instances", they save a lot of memory and speed.
:: vray has a wide choise of very good colormapping algorythms for your choise
:: you can output hdri and you can also directly adjust the unclamped rendering while render is running in the vrayframebuffer. this is with curves like photoshop, but without loosing any quality.
:: you can output passes, this will probably be in in v1 or in v1.1. these passes offer things c4d has not yet like material ID which is very very nice for postproduction.
:: if you use a normal camera the output matches the c4d output, so you can comp it with sketchandtoon or other effects.
:: vray will get regular updates with updates from chaosgroup and also for the pluginconnection directly
:: vrayforc4d uses the exact same rendercore vray for 3dmax uses. the quality is equal:-)

for more info about vray you can visit outr page vrayforc4d.com, this site will also be updated with release, there are links to chaosgroup too. there will be a vrayforc4d specific forum for soon on this site too:-)
hope i havent forgotten too much,
cheers
stefan

v-empire
03-02-2007, 09:55 AM
Does "for Cinema 4d 9.6+" explicitly exclude or include Version10.
In other words will there be trouble with c4d 10?

Regards
Holger

leed
03-02-2007, 10:12 AM
If you are looking for any mac beta testers, my hand is in the air.......

Ok worth a try...... : )

Getting excited.........

Lee

lllab
03-02-2007, 10:16 AM
v10 is best of course!
i dont even have a 9.6 installation anymore...

cheers
stefan

arkitekto
03-02-2007, 01:16 PM
Are there any notable differences between vrayforc4d and the max version? What are the features missing or exclusive in either versions?

JoelOtron
03-02-2007, 01:29 PM
Sorry to jump on the bandwagon, but another willing mac guy here if the beta slots are still open.

Continuumx
03-02-2007, 03:18 PM
v10 is best of course!
i dont even have a 9.6 installation anymore...

cheers
stefan

I do not know about that (uninstalling 9.6) there are still some good little plugins that only work up to 9.6.

lllab
03-02-2007, 03:47 PM
@architekto:
technical there is no difference.
it might be some shader or workflow things that differ because of the different app interface of c4d and max. maxversion uses some special maxshaders, c4dvray uses most c4d+3rd party shaders. as there are many procedual shaders for c4d this might be a plus for the c4d version.

there are a view vray things that might not be in the first 1.0 release(vray proxy p.e.), but those that dont make it in 1.0 will come in 1.1 and 1.2. also extra c4d specific enhencements;-)

for netrendering in c4d we have c4dNET not backburner, so this is a bit different than max. C4d has not the same kind of uvw mapping functions so this is a bit different, but we have bodypaint built in, a plus too:-)
overall it is exactly the same under the hood, the interface is differnt a bit. more c4d like...
optional it renders in exact the same vray buffer window you might know from maxvray.

@continuumx: yes sadly not all things work, but most plugs i use do work on10, so i deleted my 9.6 version, hope this wasnt a mistake? i am a very visual guy and it hurted really to open v9 interface;-)

@ all potential mactesters: sorry i cant handle this via cgtalk. if you feel you are really a "pro" mail me;-) some of you i know already so it might work;-)

cheers
stefan

scanmead
03-02-2007, 05:19 PM
Personally, I have always been of the opinion that, right before releasing new software, it should be tested by the most inept, clueless, blundering fool you can find. For that I humbly submit my name: scanmead of "if it can be broken, I'll find the way".

I'm joking, of course. :) Checkbook and plastic at the ready...

Zendorf
03-03-2007, 01:58 AM
Hi Stefan...reading that summary list is very drool inducing!

A few questions if I may...

-Since I have FR, I was wondering how the DOF compares? The FR DOF is amazing for stills but way too slow for animation and usually too grainy. Is the Vray dof a 3d raytraced DOF or post type, and how fast is it?

-I have found that using the cached GI solution and motion blur in FR to be problematic. Will GI and MB play nicely together in Vray?

-How is the displacement speed in Vray as compared to FR or C4D?

-Is the passes system tweakable like in XSI, where you can setup different materials on objects for different passes or just a predefined template style one like C4D?

-The "real instances" setup sounds very exciting...can you share any details? Will it be able to work in conjunction with Mograph clones? (or am I dreaming about that one)

Any info would be much appreciated:)

VICCHEN
03-03-2007, 05:19 AM
One question.

Can Vraybridge net render across platform ( both PC and Mac ) with one licence?

Would like to use Vray right now.....cannot wait.:)

LemonNado
03-04-2007, 01:56 PM
Will those materials work?
http://www.vray-materials.de/all_materials.php
Rainer (nearly fainting)

lllab
03-05-2007, 09:30 AM
@VICCHEN: i cant say yet, we are working on dr still, technically from vray itself it should not be a problem, but it might be networkwise between mac & pc. lets see...

@lemonado: (havent you asked this already often?;-) those are maxmaterials using vray and maxshaders. i told you i will try to convert some. but no you cannot open max or maxvray materials directly. you can rebuild most of them by yourself though...with exeption of materials that use maxspecific shaders, we "only" support vray and c4d shaders,
as said, we will think about the possibility of converters when the rest is finished...
and we will make our own material exchangeplace at out webpage.

cheers
stefan

Continuumx
03-05-2007, 08:02 PM
@VICCHEN: i cant say yet, we are working on dr still, technically from vray itself it should not be a problem, but it might be networkwise between mac & pc. lets see...

@lemonado: (havent you asked this already often?;-) those are maxmaterials using vray and maxshaders. i told you i will try to convert some. but no you cannot open max or maxvray materials directly. you can rebuild most of them by yourself though...with exeption of materials that use maxspecific shaders, we "only" support vray and c4d shaders,
as said, we will think about the possibility of converters when the rest is finished...
and we will make our own material exchangeplace at out webpage.

cheers
stefan

Are the maxshaders a 3dsmax file or something else? If something else, then these could surely be converted through some kind of script.

ngrava
03-06-2007, 04:22 AM
Are the maxshaders a 3dsmax file or something else? If something else, then these could surely be converted through some kind of script.
No they are Max files. But rest assured that those who use Max and Cinema will eventually convert some of them by hand. As Stefan has noted yet again, once Vray for C4D is out they can concentrate on other things like a possible material converter.

OK. I'm working on a real FAQ.

lllab
03-06-2007, 09:32 AM
thanks ngrava for help:-)

please lets finish us step1 before we go into additional workflow things like converters.
i promise we will look into this after the main thing (v1) is done. as this is a maxfile is is not absolutly trivial to convert those directly, but maybe via the vrmesh file format, lets see...

cheers
stefan

brammelo
03-06-2007, 02:45 PM
All this fan mail makes me wonder, Stefan: do you still have time for your visualisation work? Or are you now full time busy with the plugin?

lllab
03-06-2007, 02:58 PM
:-)
in fact i am rendering at this moment a nice building. as i have to run my office, feed my kids, pay my appartment , etc. i do all at once;-)

no, for sure the vray work is quite a bunch, but it makes a lot of fun too, it is a project that makes me very happy. sure the mails and answers get very very much at the moment, but hey-thats a good sign i think:-)

also the testing is a joy as the latest internal release is a big good step again, Renato and Daniele did a great job already.

i try my best to answer all question and mails, but please forgive if i oversee some mails, and please understand i cant answer all kind of quesions yet.
so have to go back to render...
cheers
Stefan

LemonNado
03-06-2007, 03:43 PM
"@lemonado: (havent you asked this already often?;-)"
Nope, I think I only had one or two questions here.
But thanks for the information!
Rainer

lllab
03-06-2007, 03:50 PM
ok, then i mixed that up, it was somebody else, sorry...
it is already buried in this long thread here.
cheers
stefan

Zendorf
03-07-2007, 01:24 AM
Hi Stefan,

Sorry to bump this, but if you could answer any of my questions on the previous page I would appreciate it! And yes I have pre-ordered :thumbsup:

lllab
03-07-2007, 07:28 AM
hi zendorf,

i try:)

i am no dof and mb specialist, but both are said to be excellent in vray and yes of course they are no posteffect they are 3d and the render with GI correct. dof can be used also with physical camera, it plays together with fstop etc like areal cam. but you can also adjust it by hand.

displacement is much faster and better in vray, yes. you can really use it. p.e.: for gras, carpets, ocean, water, plants, zbrush etc...also with gi of course. the vray people use it a lot. i like it much.

multipass interface has to be finished yet, i cant say exactly, but i think it doesnt work like xsi. but it has handy things like material id, which i love. overall it supports more layer types than c4d.

vrayproxy is vray capability to render objects as real instances, they dont need more memory in rendering unlike in c4d. this is to speed up things like hundred detailed cars, or millions of trees etc. it might be that we add that in an update, renato has a good idea for nice implement them;-)

cheers
stefan

Zendorf
03-07-2007, 11:24 PM
Hi Stefan....thanks for the reply!

Hopefully the 3d dof is faster than in FR and can be used in animations...will have to wait and see.

Maybe you could suggest to Renato, when he gets around to the instancing update, to have an option to have instances tie in with the Mograph clone function. This would get a lot of love from many users :thumbsup:

lllab
03-08-2007, 08:37 AM
yes i will see.

but please lets not forget, we are a very small 2 people development team, with very lightweight budget. i am already amazed what Renato and Daniele have made, this s much more than the initially promised bridge. so for the first step we have to concetrate our energy on the main features and on the both plattforms(osx & win) to get finished for v1.0.

over time we try to add all nice things that are possible, we also have to looks how far mograph and such things are supported by the sdks. vrayforc4d will get updates, Renato and i have many ideas, and we collect all your suggestions...:-)

so first we bring out v1.0 and then it can evolve step by step, there is also soon a vrayforc4d forum where you can add suggestions for v1.1:-)
cheers
stefan

Simon Wicker
03-08-2007, 10:36 AM
hi stefan,

just a couple of quick questions. i'm looking into getting something a little bit more integrated than maxwell for my matte paintings, can't use FR2 as i need mac and pc, maxwell looks great but isn't integrated enough for my tastes (although i did buy it and every few months i do a test, get bored and close it again).

so:

1) will vray support camera mapping from cinema with multiple projections layered through alpha channels?

2) are there any galleries that show of the real power of vray? i know you consider vray to be near maxwell quality but the examples shown on the main vray site look very much in the style of AR and FR2 - nice and smooth but without that ultimate stamp of quality you get if you check out the examples in the maxwell gallery.

cheers, simon w.

lllab
03-08-2007, 11:26 AM
hi simon,

i will look into the camera mapping, it should support all c4d does. but i havent l tested this yet.

there are lots of images over all the net.
i dont save those links as i already have problems managing my bookmarks...

i would try to look through the forums (not the gallery images)at evermotion.org, specially the russian and polish guys are very good at evermotion. then of course all the good archviz people out there, most professional studios use vray today, maybe look at cgarchitect. also richard rosenman or neil belvin use it i think, belvin also has a huge link collection etc. artefactory a huge paris archizfirm doing images for herzog de meuron and jean nouvel and oma, there are so many out there...

normally when i see a picture i like it is done in vray or somtimes maxwell. i have a huge personall collection here, but i just saved them from the net, and dont have the name of the artist or the permissions to post them.

actually the high qualitiy of vray is quite out of question among most users or studios out there, of course as we know a good renderengine doesnt make a good artist automaticly, so you will find also many bad images of course. every new renderengine, also maxwell gets compared to vray these days, that might also be an indicator. so vray is the "standard" to match. (maxwell quality is of course great and probably the most real overall, but at high cost to time and workflow, also hard for animation, a lot of maxwell users are also vray users by the way)

best you search for highend 3dmax users, it is quite likely they use vray...sadly nobody has done a good vraycollection site yet.

vray is definitly better integrated than maxwell though;-) it is more like FR, with the last builds i personally even prefer the integration of vray to FR,
cheers
stefan

lllab
03-08-2007, 11:56 AM
made a fast test camera mapping seems to work for me,
but what do you mean with the multiple projections with layered alpha channels?

cheers
stefan

Simon Wicker
03-08-2007, 12:31 PM
made a fast test camera mapping seems to work for me,
but what do you mean with the multiple projections with layered alpha channels?

make a second projection camera and then project another image over the first but using an alpha channel in the material so that it is patched over the first texture.

in a matte painting you often have to have multiple cameras projecting onto the same geometry to patch over areas where the initial projection is bleeding through or smearing.

these problems always appear when you are rendering with an animated camera.

cheers, simon w.

p.s. thanks for the info, i'll have a look on the web and see what vray images i can come across.

lllab
03-08-2007, 12:39 PM
do you meaqn stacked materials?
that is sadly a c4d specific thing that no external renderengine supports.

but you will be able to choose different projections per channel if that helps or maybe this is also possible via the vrayshader for mixing materials(each material having its own projection.

i will talk to renato about this...
cheers
stefan

Simon Wicker
03-08-2007, 02:23 PM
stacked materials as in if you had a cube with a luminous red base texture and then added a luminous green texture with the checkerboard shader in the alpha channel you would end up with a red and green checkered cube.

so vray cannot mix textures in this way?

cheers, simon w.

lllab
03-08-2007, 03:19 PM
no sadly not,
also not FR or maxwell or any other engine i know for c4d beside AR.

most renderengine do such a thing in one layered material, like in max p.e., not in more stacked materials.

as i said i think it can be done via the mixing shader in one material in vray, the result should be the same. the workflow is a bit different (like it is in max), i have to check this.
max has a superior workflow in this i think, there you can have different mappings and uvs per shader...but renato also has an idea for this;-)

i will talk with renato about those thing as i said...

cheers
stefan

Simon Wicker
03-08-2007, 03:33 PM
hi stefan,

thank you for testing that out. without being able to try these things out for ourselves we are of course all relying on you to satisfy our curiosity about vray.

cheers, simon w.

Per-Anders
03-08-2007, 03:49 PM
I seem to recall that fR did manage stacked materials, provided they're Cinema materials.

lllab
03-08-2007, 04:01 PM
Hi per, really? i havent managed to do that. maybe fluffy knows this...

hi simon, i will have a look into that, sadly not all parts can be done e exactly the same way as you are used it in cinema. hope you can try yourself not too far away;-)

we will also show all concepts of work, with screenshots and so on on our site when things are 100% done...

cheers
Stefan

p.s. if you are very very interested in vray you can download the max and the vraydemo, they both work for 30 days i think. the functions, the quality and possibilities are the same, it's 100% the same engine, we "just" intergarte it into beloved cinema-interface;-)

p.s.s. here is also the online vray manual for max, for those who are interested:
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150R1/
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150R1/examples_vrayphysicalcamera.htm
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150R1/examples_vraysun_sky.htm
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150R1/tutorials_pathtracing.htm

georgedrakakis
03-08-2007, 08:00 PM
p.s.s. here is also the online vray manual for max, for those who are interested:
and if you wanna taste a little bit of Vray you can download Vray beta for Sketchup + Sketchup demo.

lllab
03-09-2007, 09:14 AM
ah yes this is a good recourse, also a lot of examples and tutorials:

http://www.asgvis.com

you have to register, but then you have tons of pages and pictures about vray:-)
they have a simpliefied materialinterface which is a bit different, but the functions are all the same...very very informative:-)

there is vrayfor rhino and sketchup. it will give you a goof overview about the capabilities of vrayforc4d. what they dont have yet is DR, physicalsky and camera, or net rendering.

here is another recourse for tutorials and info:
http://www.aversis.be/extra_tutorials/00.htm

cheers
Stefan

Neil V
03-14-2007, 11:17 AM
Any news on a possible release date for VRay? I ask because I'm about to get embroiled in a 3 month architectural project that will require a high degree of realism. The project won't be ready to start for another month or so.

If the release is imminent then I'd be only too happy to whip out the old credit card. Thanks in advance.

cristiantumiati
03-16-2007, 09:24 AM
If the project is near or ready to april i have two works very big and more important......so......i'd like render these with v-ray

lllab
03-16-2007, 09:44 AM
i send you a message neil...

cheers
stefan

kossoolli
03-16-2007, 11:28 AM
Mmmh, could you send the mail to some other people waiting for vray for ages???

osxman
03-16-2007, 11:46 AM
Mmmh, could you send the mail to some other people waiting for vray for ages???
Yes, that would be nice! :love:

My next project would certainly benefit from access to VRay (just as my previous one would have ;)).

Private Beta for those with preorders perhaps? :applause:
Or are we too many?

But I guess I'm out of luck anyway since you're currently only working on the Windows version (right?).

Hopeful,
Stéphane

Neil V
03-16-2007, 12:33 PM
Thanks stefan.

I'll PM you in due course.

Thanks again!

i send you a message neil...

cheers
stefan

lllab
03-16-2007, 12:48 PM
well i told him that vray is soon but not imminent and i cant promise a date,
and i also discussed some FR (non-vray) things that do not belong in this thread, here about things neil ask somewhere else. so nothing special....sorry.

we do work hard on it, i know you all are waiting for a final release, including myself, but it makes no sense to push it, we already do as fast as possible.-) please understand....

thanks,
cheers,
stefan

as much as i understand your wish, please dont ask for paid beta, i really dont want to step into the "things" that happended to NL.

georgedrakakis
03-16-2007, 12:49 PM
Thanks stefan.

I'll PM you in due course.

Thanks again!
i think we have an official buyer here :).

edit: oops sorry Stefan, i missed your previus post.

btw, i think i am the only one without stress about releasing day.
i fact this delay is for my best interest cause i have only once in a lifetime to get a render engine, so i am waiting for AR3, FR sp3, Fryrender, and so on.

leed
03-16-2007, 02:03 PM
btw, i think i am the only one without stress about releasing day.
i fact this delay is for my best interest cause i have only once in a lifetime to get a render engine, so i am waiting for AR3, FR sp3, Fryrender, and so on.


YES, A bit of reverse psychology, that might work.....

I am not really bothered anyway.... either way.... I can wait a bit longer..... : )


Lee

osxman
03-16-2007, 02:58 PM
well i told him that vray is soon but not imminent and i cant promise a date,
and i also discussed some FR (non-vray) things that do not belong in this thread, here about things neil ask somewhere else. so nothing special....sorry.

we do work hard on it, i know you all are waiting for a final release, including myself, but it makes no sense to push it, we already do as fast as possible.-) please understand....

thanks,
cheers,
stefan

as much as i understand your wish, please dont ask for paid beta, i really dont want to step into the "things" that happended to NL.No problem – I know you're as eager as the rest of us and working hard to finish this.

Just a jealous streak that jumped to the surface ;). Didn't want to miss out on anything.

I also understand the fear of the "paid beta" circus but if we don't need to pay until it's finished and the beta is time limited... OK I know I'm probably asking for too much but you can't blame a guy for trying. :)

ngrava
03-20-2007, 03:57 PM
Oooooo... The quiet before the storm? god I hope. I have a short film that I'm just starting up on and I'd love to use Cinema ;)

I just had a thought; Vray with Cinema's "Interactive Render Region"... Oh my god. I wonder if it works? I'm totally geeking out! :applause: :bounce:

osxman
03-20-2007, 06:24 PM
...I just had a thought; Vray with Cinema's "Interactive Render Region"... Oh my god. I wonder if it works?...Yes, I believe that this has been said to work by both Renato and Stefan. :)

edit: Posts #321 and #322 say yes!

ngrava
03-20-2007, 06:46 PM
That ... is... going... to... kick... ass!! :bounce: I can't wait!:cry:

DanieleF
03-21-2007, 08:53 AM
Yes guys...
The Interactive Render Region is fully supported and much more ... Just wait a bit more...
Cheers

shtl
03-21-2007, 09:28 AM
.../... Just wait a bit more...


Is that a clue ? :D

ok sorry couldn't help ^^

Keep up the good work guys, take your time, we'll be waiting ain't we ?

All thoose news are so cool, it helps me wait :bounce:

lllab
03-21-2007, 10:00 AM
Hi all,

yes as daniele said, of course interactive renderer works fine:-)

this engine is already very very powerfull, fun to work with...

renato is working on the DR,
and Daniele is improving the material layout to make it better in workflow, the current system might be a bit too complicated for the average user. it will be more maxvray like now. but this are more cosmetic changes...

i was asked for imagelinks made with vray. here at evermotion in the gallery are some relativly nice ones:

http://evermotion.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=344
http://evermotion.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=318

cheers
stefan

LemonNado
03-21-2007, 04:34 PM
Omg.... I have a problem:
http://www.onesmall.com/stuff/vray.jpg
Do something... quick 8))))

Rainer

franz78
03-21-2007, 05:07 PM
we should wait an i want wait because i want vray works very fine.
for me Stefan and his teem need some time for this.
and we should wait.

stop with presure please.

Franz

www.realitystduio.it (http://www.realitystduio.it)

Ernest Burden
03-21-2007, 05:24 PM
Is it possible to have vRay/C4D read displacement from a C4D material? Probably not, but I might as well ask.

FR2 does a great job of rendering C4D mats (even better with bump) but cannot read the displacement channel. So you have to re-create the entire material as a fr2 shadertree mat, which AR cannot render. So that sucks.

What about our vRay?

Continuumx
03-21-2007, 08:02 PM
Hello Renato, Daniele and Stefan,

I would be interested to know if the bridge will work with Vue Xstream 6?

As it stands now, Vue Xstream works with Cinema 4D native renderer through viewports, render region, Interactive renderer as Xstream renders the vue portions and cinema renders the cinema scene portions.

Since vray4cinema 4d will operate as another renderer instead of an post effect, should then Xstream be able to continue rendering its scene portions and then be able to allow vray for cinema 4d to render the cinema 4d scene portions in the same manner?

If this works, this would be another interesting point to know.

Thanks!

ThePriest
03-21-2007, 08:17 PM
I believe that task would be difficult and down to both developers.

You would need an integrated system for VRay that says handles compositing more adequately, ie, allowing for hair/particles etc and ultimately external pluggable apps like XStream.

Also, Vue compositing options need to be more flexable to allow for external render engines.

But you're talking about a 3 way communication system, which is rare in any application. Although Max supports Vue for both it's standalone render engine and Mental Ray, which at the moment is the easiest route to take when using XStream.

The idea alone is exciting and many uses come to mind, but the stability is an issue and still not a practical solution unless you don't mind lots of disappointment's. :D

LucentDreams
03-21-2007, 09:32 PM
no I don't think its possible vue xstream is running its renderer inside of cinema as is vray theres actually two non cinema renderers both plugging in I doubt without a lot of work on all three developers parts that you could have two work together inside a 3rd app.

dan22
03-21-2007, 10:56 PM
Apologies if this has been covered,- I expect it has, but I'm too tired to crawl through 48 pages - but will Multipass rendering be supported?

Continuumx
03-22-2007, 12:14 AM
I believe that task would be difficult and down to both developers.

You would need an integrated system for VRay that says handles compositing more adequately, ie, allowing for hair/particles etc and ultimately external pluggable apps like XStream.

Also, Vue compositing options need to be more flexable to allow for external render engines.

But you're talking about a 3 way communication system, which is rare in any application. Although Max supports Vue for both it's standalone render engine and Mental Ray, which at the moment is the easiest route to take when using XStream.

The idea alone is exciting and many uses come to mind, but the stability is an issue and still not a practical solution unless you don't mind lots of disappointment's. :D

Vue Xstream already does this using Cinema 4D native render. If VrayC4D works like what Stephen has suggested, it should work in theory.

Re: With the plugin, you can switch between C4D native renderer or VrayC4D as your render engine.

I may have it completely incorrect about what Stephen said, I'll check back through the thread to confirm.

lllab
03-22-2007, 09:16 AM
"Vue Xstream already does this using Cinema 4D native render. If VrayC4D works like what Stephen has suggested, it should work in theory."

hi continuumx: well no this is not going automaticly as xstream uses a lot of hacks to mix with Ar. as far as i understand it it also depends on how c4d sdk works with current external renderengines. vue had enough problems make it run with ar.
so i would not count that it works directly.

you might be able to use the geometry of course, and its uvw data.so

Earnest: vray needs vraybrdf material to be used so it works with c4d shaders not with c4d native material. displacemnt works with a simpel tag you will love it! it is much better than the one in AR or FR. it is great for grass, bushed trees oaceans, thick carpets etc. and it is fast also with gi! vray material is very nice and you will like that one too i am positiv:-)

we might make a script to convert c4d materials automaticly to bredf vray materials in an update to make translation and usage even easier. i have some ideas for that.

cheers
stefan

lllab
03-22-2007, 09:20 AM
"Apologies if this has been covered,- I expect it has, but I'm too tired to crawl through 48 pages - but will Multipass rendering be supported?"

yes, vray supports many multipass layers, more than ar actually. it will have its own multipass interface, not the c4d one.

cheers
stefan

osxman
03-22-2007, 09:29 AM
...Earnest: vray needs vraybrdf material to be used so it works with c4d shaders not with c4d native material. displacemnt works with a simpel tag you will love it! it is much better than the one in AR or FR. it is great for grass, bushed trees oaceans, thick carpets etc. and it is fast also with gi! vray material is very nice and you will like that one too i am positiv:-)

we might make a script to convert c4d materials automaticly to bredf vray materials in an update to make translation and usage even easier. i have some ideas for that.

cheers
stefanNow you're both teasing AND spoiling us!:bounce:
Please don't stop. ;)

dan22
03-22-2007, 01:17 PM
One more question(which has probably already been asked too, sorry): Will you need to have AR in order to run VrayforC4D?

I have it anyway, but wondered if it would still be neccesary in the future?

Cheers,

D.

Ernest Burden
03-22-2007, 01:34 PM
displacemnt works with a simpel tag you will love it! it is much better than the one in AR or FR

Good, because the displacement in both AR and FR are very good. My only issue is the one about having to completely re-write the shader to use FRs disp.

My main use of displacement is 3D RGB noise in world space applied to trees so each one is different, even though they're all Instances. I'm hoping I can adapt my technique to vRay/C4D.

Thanks as usual for the response.

machmirdenlukas
03-22-2007, 02:46 PM
Hi lllab,
what about RPC and ies-lights support?
Cheers

LemonNado
03-22-2007, 03:11 PM
Quick question.... When I render with MR in XSI then I can save the render job on a MR file format and then have MR render the image wihtout XSI running. Just MR. Gives MR more memory etc. Is it possible to save the data for the job in C4D as well in that fashion, so that VRay can chew it up stand alone?
Rainer

lllab
03-22-2007, 04:21 PM
Ar is not necessarily needed for vray, although it doesnt hurt to have;-)

hi Earnest, i dont understand 100% your workflow, but it sounds very straight forward. why do you use rgb noise-is that colored? does the color do anything for displacement inAR?
you can definitly use c4d noise for displacment

rpc support maybe in updates later, ies will be there yes, in 1.0 or 1.1.

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
03-22-2007, 04:46 PM
Earnest, i dont understand 100% your workflow, but it sounds very straight forward. why do you use rgb noise-is that colored? does the color do anything for displacement inAR?
you can definitly use c4d noise for displacment

Yes, the color is RGB=XYZ, so a green area of noise pulls your surface up, while purple would pull down, or any mix of color moves things around in all three axis. Its great! FR2 calls it 'vector' but its the same thing. So working in world space means every object gets treated a little differently even if it's one of a million Instances of a single model.

lllab
03-22-2007, 05:03 PM
i see,
well this is not in my beta, i ahve to talk to renato or vlado for this.
looks like a good feature.
cheers
stefan

edit: it works in max as there you can have a mapping with object or world xyz. this can be used for displacment there. in c4d we dont have such a mapping directly available, but it seems to be there as it is here for displacemnet. i will ask renato to see that we can have this option for the displacement mapping. cant pronise but i think this should be possible.

Continuumx
03-22-2007, 06:47 PM
"Vue Xstream already does this using Cinema 4D native render. If VrayC4D works like what Stephen has suggested, it should work in theory."

hi continuumx: well no this is not going automaticly as xstream uses a lot of hacks to mix with Ar. as far as i understand it it also depends on how c4d sdk works with current external renderengines. vue had enough problems make it run with ar.
so i would not count that it works directly.


cheers
stefan

Thanks Stefan for the respond.

I would not call what E-On is doing with Vue-Xstream hacks. From my test, Vue 6 Xstream is so far flawless when it works in concert with Cinema's native renderer and its AR engine. I have had no stumbles, it just works very well.

If it does not work, it is still not too much of a hassle for workflow as the two can still be made to work together through post.

lllab
03-22-2007, 07:27 PM
hi continuumx,

i dint mean functionwise and hacks are not evil. i meant code and sdk wise. it is not a simpel task to mix 2 renderengines-this needs some kind of "hacking" also in a positive creative manner. but it makes i difficult to add a third engine as the connection between to 2 is already not trivial.

good to hear it works fine, i own vue5 infinite and might update to xstraem sometime.

cheers
stefan

Continuumx
03-22-2007, 07:48 PM
hi continuumx,

i dint mean functionwise and hacks are not evil. i meant code and sdk wise. it is not a simpel task to mix 2 renderengines-this needs some kind of "hacking" also in a positive creative manner. but it makes i difficult to add a third engine as the connection between to 2 is already not trivial.

good to hear it works fine, i own vue5 infinite and might update to xstraem sometime.

cheers
stefan

Hello Stefan,

Thanks for your explanation. I am still reviewing Vue6 Xsteam. So far, I have been very impressed. I was on Vue 4 before I went Cinema 4D. I see some great promise in using Cinema, Vue, and external render engines.

Your project with the bridge is great news and by the signs of this thread is meant for immense success. Continued success!

lllab
03-22-2007, 10:37 PM
thanks:-)

yes i also can see intresting combinations with vue. i love the automated populating and variation of things line cars, plants and trees or whatever in vue p.e. but i havent exlpored all power yet, not even in v5.

well after this is finished maybe i have sometime...
cheers
stefan

howzit
03-28-2007, 06:31 AM
hi,
hey everyone, I have been out of the loop for a month or two, just wanted to see if V-Rya ever made it to MAC OS.

there seems to have been a lot of chatter which is very exciting.
However, is there a secret club V-Ray has decided to form for C4D users? I was ready to buy it when i noticed that there is nowhere to buy it? I went to V-RayForC4D and it just askes for an email for "preorder"
I would love to join the club... any secret handhsake i need to learn?

is it only available as a Beta for Uber users right now? sorry for being out of the loop.. but this is really great news if this is actually available to the public!

lllab
03-28-2007, 07:57 AM
hi howzit,
no secret club but it is still in development:-)
you can wait until release and buy it then, or preorder if you want to help us and get a reduced price when buying(dont have to pay now).

cheers
stefan
vrayforc4d

howzit
03-29-2007, 12:08 AM
hey, thanks for the reply. cool... cant wait!

cgrick
03-29-2007, 05:55 AM
Ar is not necessarily needed for vray, although it doesnt hurt to have;-)


But are there functions in AR that are not in VRAY? so buying the C4D standard bundle (with no AR) and use only Vray will work?

lllab
03-29-2007, 08:36 AM
well of course there are some functions in ar that dont work with external engines as the other way around. each renderengines has its pros and cons. one plus for ar is that it is 100% integrated and works with all parts and modules of cinema, also with things like vue xstream directly. also it is easier for beginners. vray has more power on the other side and some highend functione that are not in ar. specially its gi light and surface quality-speed ratio is superb.

i love to use ar for fast non realistic rendering, i love sketch and toon for advanced line work (but i think for that you dont need ar), forthose who work with after effects or fcp the direct link with ar is fine etc...

soo, if you live from 3d work i would say get both;-)

cheers
stefan

choppir
03-29-2007, 09:24 AM
I think Vray will be awesome!

Just a few questions i have:

I do Architectual stuff and constantly need to make grass.
I wanted to buy the hair module of cinema, but haven't yet.

1) Is it better to buy VRAY to make grass, hair etc etc with that?

2) If i buy VRAY v1, will i pay extra for 1.2, 1.3.... and so on, or are there always a free upgrade?

I am looking SO forward to this program! :-)!!!

Cheers

choppir

lllab
03-29-2007, 11:06 AM
hi thanks,
we work hard to get it done...

most vray guys make rather good grass with a mixture from phototextures and displacement.

for longer grass you might use hair if that is transformable to polygons, but that will be very much polygons. or you migth render the hair as extram pass in ar and composite it.

yes 1.1, 1.2 & 1.3 will be free, this will be updates short after first release where we will also have things that we might not have in 1.0. these updates will be all this year. as bug fixes and feature addons....and free for existing 1.0 customers.

only bigger updates will be paid.

cheers
stefan

MrBraun
03-29-2007, 12:27 PM
For the Hair, great are Fast&Fur Renato's plugin ! ;)

choppir
03-29-2007, 01:24 PM
so you recon this is better than the hair module?
Is it easier to work with and cheaper?

So, maybe then VRAY + Renato's hair module can be the way forward :thumbsup:

lllab
03-29-2007, 02:00 PM
yes of course fastfur is very nice and works as polygon in vray too:-)

it has not all functions of hair of course but is faster and cheaper, i use it...
cheers
stefan

Per-Anders
03-29-2007, 05:42 PM
I wouldn't say faster, but it is cheaper for sure and offers enough functionality for most users.

Both will work with external render engines, F&F generates polygonal geometry only, HAIR can be set to generate polygonal geometry of various types including full instances, however if you want to make use of HAIR's own faster volumetric/post based rendering rather than polygonal you would have to render it in a seperate pass as post effects do not work with external render engines (post effects are an inherent part of a specific render engine, so that's just a limitation I'm afraid).

Using either should work excellently, it's just down to your needs, budget, and workflow.

lllab
03-29-2007, 06:57 PM
i meant faster/easier in setup not rendering. i know maxon did an superb job for hair in renderspeed...

as i said before with polygons both should work.
cheers
stefan

lllab
04-02-2007, 01:12 PM
some quite nice vray(max) images from evermotion i just saw...

http://evermotion.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=58359

here vray displacement is in heavy use for grass and bushes:

http://evermotion.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=10460&d=1172433868

cheers
stefan

choppir
04-02-2007, 02:50 PM
wow, those images are just something different! its awesome!

You recon VRAY and Cinema will be able to render out something like that?

i'm trying my best to make up my mind to pre-order VRAY, but for me it's quite pricy i must say.

anyway, i'll let you know when i've made up my mind.

choppir

helluvapixel
04-02-2007, 02:51 PM
some quite nice vray(max) images from evermotion i just saw...

http://evermotion.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=58359

here vray displacement is in heavy use for grass and bushes:

http://evermotion.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=10460&d=1172433868

cheers
stefan

would probably mean more to see it coming from c4d ;)

Neil V
04-02-2007, 03:02 PM
would probably mean more to see it coming from c4d ;)

I agree although they are pretty spectacular renders.

lllab
04-02-2007, 05:43 PM
" You recon VRAY and Cinema will be able to render out something like that?"

well for sure, it just depends on your skills-vray gives you all tools you need for that;-)
vrayfor c4d is the same engine, so it can produce the same image quality...

same code, same quality, same functions

in this images actually only vray basic things are used- physical sky and sun, some good materials (with vray brdf-alsi in vrayforc4d) and displacement....(and a good artist).
so all available in vrayc4d;-)

cheers
stefan

cristiantumiati
04-02-2007, 07:04 PM
- the files will be supported also .IES in the lights vray?

ThePriest
04-02-2007, 09:56 PM
Very nice work from the evermotion link!


I plan to release an inexpensive DVD
that will detail such techniques in full,
accompanied by complete scenes and explanations.

It will sell for around $40 or less

I'll provide a site with full information
by the end of this week.

pillemann
04-02-2007, 10:48 PM
is there a chance to see a ss of the materialeditor?

sunmade
04-02-2007, 11:17 PM
Good to hear that ThePriest!

I am in for a buy as soon as there is more info.

Keep it up....and us informed

cheers
chris

lllab
04-03-2007, 08:27 AM
"the files will be supported also .IES in the lights vray?"

yes ies data supported by vray. if it doesnt make it in v1.0 we bring it in 1.1 about short later...

@the priest- great sounds good:-)

cheers
stefan

leed
04-03-2007, 12:01 PM
"the files will be supported also .IES in the lights vray?"

if it doesnt make it in v1.0 we bring it in 1.1 about short later...

@the priest- great sounds good:-)

cheers
stefan


Stefan

sound as though you have fixed a date for launch. .... ?.....

just wondering, do not have to know what it is.... just have you a date in mind?


Lee

Ernest Burden
04-03-2007, 12:12 PM
ies data supported by vray. if it doesnt make it in v1.0 we bring it in 1.1 about short later...

On the one hand I don't want to suggest delaying the launch, but on the other I really want IES lights in the C4D/vray bridge. C4D doesn't have them, and in fr2 they don't cast shadows properly yet (unresolved bug).

A client just emailed me about updating a rendering I did a few years ago, but I had done it with Lightscape. At first I thought no problem, I'll just bring my old model into C4D, but remembered that I had made custom IES shapes for the lights. Its either start over with those or go back to a program I haven't used in a long time...

IES is really important for arch-vis work.

lllab
04-03-2007, 01:01 PM
"but on the other I really want IES lights in the"

yes me too...

"On the one hand I don't want to suggest delaying the launch"

..and thats the other part...

we have to balance both things i guess. i am planing with Renato at the moment how and when to release 1.0, we will decide on dedicated feature list 1.0 soon.

nevertheless if there are some features that will not make it in 1.0, i promise we bring them REALLY SHORT afterwards in update 1.1 & 1.2. this updates will be something like 4 weeks and 9 weeks after first release...( we will give an exact plan for this in time to all customers)

so if ies (this is depending at the moment from the sdk) is probably not in 1.0 it will be available a short time after in 1.1. this is an important feature no question and works very well in vray.

cheers
stefan

georgedrakakis
04-03-2007, 10:04 PM
"the files will be supported also .IES in the lights vray?"

yes ies data supported by vray. if it doesnt make it in v1.0 we bring it in 1.1 about short later...

tnx Stefan,
that answers my question :).
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=176&t=349805&page=12&pp=15

Garin
04-04-2007, 04:11 PM
How long we will wait for it?:shrug:

ngrava
04-05-2007, 05:57 AM
Did you guys see that Apple release a new Dual, quad core MacPro? 8 Cores total!!! I know other computer manufacturers have similar machines but this is the one that I'm personally excited about. It's like having your own mini render farm in a single machine. Best thing is, I think my work will to get one for me pretty soon. So I hope I can start Vray'ing in Cinema on a V8 pretty soon! :D We have a pretty large render farm here at work and I'm often using DR with Vray in Max. It's really something to see 20 or so little buckets zipping around the screen in pursuit of quality, ;) Man, I am so ready to do this in Cinema.