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View Full Version : Hardcore Modeling Challenge: David (Full Body)


Rod Seffen
04-19-2006, 10:47 PM
Mickey was kind enough to supply us with the proportions and pose, so I think the best plan is to make it a body part at a time.
So, starting with the right leg...

This will be pure poly modeling, no zbrush, which makes it one hell of a task. The amount of detail in the anatomy is ridiculous.. this half finshed leg took 4 hours so far,
For me, legs with highy defined anatomy like this are the most difficult part of a figure to model, because the mucslce groups and the way they fit together is so complex.

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/davidfinalsmall2.jpg

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/finaltop.jpg

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/orthfinal2.jpg

Hamilcar
04-20-2006, 02:11 AM
Nice start! looks like your getting a leg up on everyone else(sorry bad joke)
are we suppose to post our WIP here? or in the modeling forum?

RobertoOrtiz
04-20-2006, 02:55 AM
Please post it here...

Thanks

-R

habs111
04-20-2006, 03:17 AM
Nice job

I'm working on the eye region right now, its taking forever, the detail is amazing.

Looking great, keep it up.

gaiXyn
04-20-2006, 04:45 AM
damn man! you suck, why you gotta be so good, huh? you make me sick!! Seriously tho, it's looking damn good man, I have alot of work to get mine remotely close to that. GOOD JOB!!

gjpetch
04-20-2006, 06:01 AM
Very cool. I'm seeing a bit of artifacting/pinching around the knee, and to my eyes it looks slightly thicker/shorter than the real thing. And I think you could exagerate the overall curves and definition a little bit more.

Rod Seffen
04-20-2006, 06:21 AM
Very cool. I'm seeing a bit of artifacting/pinching around the knee, and to my eyes it looks slightly thicker/shorter than the real thing. And I think you could exagerate the overall curves and definition a little bit more.

Heh, yeah, I tend to work real messy adding edges as I need them and clean it up as I go along. LW doesn't do triangles very well in subpatch mode, or n-gons until 9, so smoothing it all out to quads is something that I do after I've got the anatomy I want.
It just looks thick becasue it's truncated at the top and bottom, I can assure you it's in perfect relation to my front/side view references)
How defined to make the muscles is where the difficult really lies here, it's hard to really discern it properly until the whole leg has been finished and I light it properly, then I can easily adjust them.
As rule, I always think it's better to make them slightly less defined than you think they are.

gjpetch
04-20-2006, 07:01 AM
As rule, I always think it's better to make them slightly less defined than you think they are.

Really? I tend to go for the opposite and make shapes more defined. My thinking is that soft lighting, translucency and so on will tend to make real world objects look smoother and less defined than they physically are, so standard default lighting and phong shading can be misleading and unatural, its bit like looking at a plaster cast in a black room with a lamp above your head.:) Plus I just prefer over-exaggeration to under-exaggeration.
Anyway, I don't your model needs to be more defined everywhere, mostly just around the lower knee (see the attached screencap from the scanview david).

alshakno
04-20-2006, 07:39 AM
Really? I tend to go for the opposite and make shapes more defined. My thinking is that soft lighting, translucency and so on will tend to make real world objects look smoother and less defined than they physically are, so standard default lighting and phong shading can be misleading and unatural, its bit like looking at a plaster cast in a black room with a lamp above your head.:) Plus I just prefer over-exaggeration to under-exaggeration.
Anyway, I don't your model needs to be more defined everywhere, mostly just around the lower knee (see the attached screencap from the scanview david).

I m agree with the Gjpetch

Rod Seffen
04-20-2006, 07:41 AM
I haven't finished the knee yet (or any of the leg) it's just what I had when I finished modeling last night.
Overall, I think subtlelty works better than exaggeration when doing realistic anatomy. Lighting can makes things look harder just as much as they can soften it out.

elvis75k
04-20-2006, 11:44 AM
Yes, lighting can be crucial in modeling this monster.
Great start! Maybe i'll try too..

Rod Seffen
04-20-2006, 06:19 PM
End of modeling session two. I didn't get the foot finished, mainly becasue I spent about and hour and a half on the big toe, and still couldn't get it right :/

rasmusW
04-20-2006, 07:56 PM
hey oddity!

this is a very nice start. the onlt thing i can pinpoint would be his toes looks too squarish, but as you said yourself, it's only wip. -so good work and keep it up.
hope to start my attempt tomorrow.

-r

JDM3dee
04-20-2006, 11:51 PM
heya oDDity! :thumbsup:

Looking really nice so far, loving the upper leg, but the lower leg and foot, i dunno, dont look quite right... i know you said you haven't finished the foot, but the Achillies Tendon and heel looks slightly odd, especially from behind. This may be one of the areas not yet completed, just though i would add my thoughts! :)

Keep going, im really looking forward to your progress on the torso!

Cheers, Justin...

fx81
04-21-2006, 12:33 AM
very good start, the knee seems to have more detail than required

appppo
04-21-2006, 01:23 AM
Nice Details :)

Rod Seffen
04-21-2006, 07:18 AM
I agree about the knee, it's looks over complex when I rendered it with lighing. The problem is that studying the sculpture from evey angle in scanview, and changing the lighting a lot, does show up a lot of details, whereas if you just look at a front view with top lighting it lokks a lot simpler.

jorust
04-21-2006, 07:21 AM
Nice start.
No need to nitpick at this stage, and I'm sure there's no reason to when you're finished.
Man, this is a tough one...
Good luck!

Rod Seffen
04-21-2006, 07:49 PM
End of session #3 = 5 hours.
THe leg and foot are pretty much finished. It'll never be perfect, and I've the whole rest of the figure to do, so I can't tweak the leg forever.

rasmusW
04-21-2006, 08:15 PM
hey oddity!

great progress. looking really good.
i haven't got any crits besides, i'll think it's a shame with all this bump, your model would look just fine without, or atleast just tone em down.

-r

rastko
04-21-2006, 11:09 PM
Great work, really great. :applause:

habs111
04-21-2006, 11:41 PM
hey oddity!

great progress. looking really good.
i haven't got any crits besides, i'll think it's a shame with all this bump, your model would look just fine without, or atleast just tone em down.

-r

I agree, unless your doing the modelling with shading then you should just do a shader with no bump. Unless it makes it look better.

alshakno
04-22-2006, 05:43 AM
nice the foot now looks better but is it ur last detail for it or will it be detailed more in zbrush?

gl

Rod Seffen
04-22-2006, 06:50 AM
There is no more detail, apart from a vein which I'e now modeled in. It's not necessary to use zbrush for or such things.
This is a hardcore MODELING challenge, not a hardcore sculpting challenge. The two things are quite different disiplines, so I intend to model everything in lightwave.

gaiXyn
04-22-2006, 07:13 AM
WOW!! Very nice looking foot, great toes!!

zem
04-22-2006, 10:45 AM
Great work on that leg!:thumbsup:
And after only five hours:eek:

Keep it up!

grstovell
04-22-2006, 01:56 PM
Loving that leg! Great details... and awesome lighting.

Not loving your signature that much...I tend to not like it when stones fall on my head =)

Can't wait to see this one finished!

-g

appppo
04-22-2006, 02:53 PM
Great shape and details :thumbsup:
Nice topology, too.
Keep going!

Rod Seffen
04-22-2006, 08:07 PM
Day #4
Lower body mostly done - subject to later tweaking of course..
I mirrored the leg, but had to rebuild most of it anyway becase the topology is quite different from the right leg.

Staszek
04-22-2006, 08:07 PM
greate job - legs are almost done:)
I have question - how did you place the model in the software world ?
Im thinking - the references are in the perspective view - in diferent view(left for example) - perspective makes some of elements closer or far.- shortly - Did you mached the diferent views ? - is the front view and left are mached? did you mesure the FOV ?

Rod Seffen
04-22-2006, 08:11 PM
I have a front and side reference as background templates, apart from that I'm constantly checking the scanview model for proportions, angles and details on all sides.

rasmusW
04-22-2006, 08:25 PM
hey oddity!

looks like you've captured his weight pretty well. would like to see a frontview, though. because it kinda looks like you could give his tibialis anterior (the lower leg bone), a bit more curvature. but, then again it could be pict. angle.
the line over his left buttock is too straight and hard atm.

well that's all for now. keep up the good work.


-r

Rod Seffen
04-22-2006, 08:33 PM
Yes, the left shin could do with a bit more curve. Well spotted.

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/shin.jpg

alshakno
04-22-2006, 09:08 PM
nice legs

just it!

benclark
04-22-2006, 10:09 PM
I really like this model so far its head and shoulders above the rest

You've got the muscle flexing of the right leg perfect. Cant wait to see how you approach the torso, please keep posting the wires!

Bao2
04-24-2006, 12:58 AM
Is looking awesome.
The foot fingers are modelled or sculpted with something like in ZBrush?

fx81
04-24-2006, 05:31 AM
very good progress
for crits,
the left leg shin needs a little bend and the feets might need to be a little bigger/wider.
i made some sketches over your image hope you dont mind
http://www.fx81.com/temp/shin2.jpg

Rod Seffen
04-24-2006, 08:44 AM
Heh, yeah, every time I look at it, I see a few more tweaks that are needed, but I think I'll crack on and finish the rest and then indulge in an overall tweakfest with the remaining time..
I hadn't much time yesterday, just 2 hours so I blocked in the main torso masses and workled a little on a decent render setup.

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/render1.jpg

Erith
04-24-2006, 11:25 AM
Great Topology Man!

Keep it up!

gaiXyn
04-24-2006, 12:39 PM
this is looking real good man, LW seems to be really good when dealing with Sub-Ds. Excellent work! Can you render out and post the front?

Intervain
04-24-2006, 05:36 PM
great progress, you're quite fast with it :) Keep it coming :beer: Can't wait to see the head!

ps. subscribed to your thread :)

jorust
04-24-2006, 06:30 PM
Great progress. I think you're going to nail this one...

Rod Seffen
04-24-2006, 07:15 PM
Heh, I won't get too confident, I'm currently doing the chest and abdomen, and it is without a doubt the most difficult modeling I've ever had to do. Trying to find a poly flow around some of the topology there is a nightmare...

rasmusW
04-24-2006, 07:47 PM
hehehehe... -yearh! know what you mean:) it's sure is a tough one.


-r

leandrop
04-25-2006, 03:46 AM
Looking Great already! Your work is the best one. It seems that you will have time to do a lot of tweaking...
It's nice to see another LW user in the challenge.

gaiXyn
04-25-2006, 04:38 AM
Great progress. I think you're going to nail this one...

agreed!! Your model looks soooo organic so real, just leaving it the way it stands now, and you'll still win. Hands down, :D

V3N
04-25-2006, 12:31 PM
very nice progress, love the knees.. and the render setup seems cool too.
keep up the good work

habs111
04-25-2006, 02:22 PM
agreed!! Your model looks soooo organic so real, just leaving it the way it stands now, and you'll still win. Hands down, :D

I wouldnt rule this project won quite yet, there are other projects that look promising as well. There is plenty of time still left. Personally I believe the guy that uses zbrush will win. Haha. Anyway great job oddity.

Rod Seffen
04-25-2006, 07:43 PM
*wipes brow* this torso is hard work. Two modeling session jjust on the front, I havent' even started the back yet.
I'm not entirely happy with it yet, but it's not terrible.

Gabe
04-25-2006, 08:01 PM
Wow!

Great work

habs111
04-25-2006, 09:23 PM
Looking really nice, I like your rendering setup. Can you give us a brief description of how you got this image beside the modelling?

fx81
04-25-2006, 09:43 PM
you are getting along nice
this should help:
http://www.fx81.com/temp/bodyC.gif

Rod Seffen
04-25-2006, 09:59 PM
Thanks for that, I have background images, but don't follow them as closly as I should.
I can always tweak the shape to perfecton once I'm done, Lightwave has some great tools for doing that.

Viituosity, it's just two area lights, with inverse falloff, one light blue, one light orange, and radiosity using a simple backgound gradient.

edit: just to show how quickly overall proprtions and placement can be tweaked, I did these changes in 2 mintues, which is why I'm not obsessed with folowing backdrop images exactly, since I know it's the work of a few minutes to adjust to perfection it later on when I've all the hard work done..

TimMehmet
04-25-2006, 11:27 PM
Totally fantastic stuff, as much as I love Zbrush work, (and damn do I know how much skill it takes to do something decent in it)... I just personally apreciate SubD work of this caliber so much more, you sir are a genious.
Can you explain a bit on your modeling method, when tweaking proportions in lightwave with dense meshes like this, how do ya go about doing this? do you mess around with the falloff settings etc? Id really be interested to hear as I can sometimes have a hard time manipulating my proportions in LW.
Cheers

Gabe
04-26-2006, 12:21 AM
Soft selection would be my first guess...

Lattice deformers

or

Paint deformer brush, if LW has that.

You can also take a model in to zbrush and reshape it without adding any more detail.

zem
04-26-2006, 05:01 AM
Spectacular work! It's been so interesting to follow your progress.
You work so fast and it still looks stunning.
:thumbsup:

MrPositive
04-26-2006, 05:04 AM
Holy mackarel,

Oddity you got the power! Now bring it home!

Rod Seffen
04-26-2006, 07:15 AM
Thanks. Hard as it is, and frustrating at times, I'm really enjoying this, I can't wait to get stuck in each day.
MadDawg, I use the dragnetwork tool in lightwave to manipulate the proportions. THere are no tedious selections and idiotic manipulator handles in Lightwave, so you can push and pull the topology very quickly by setting the falloff on the dragnet tool on the fly using the RMB.
A for the way I bui8ld the mesh int he first place, the leg for exaple, I make a disc, use extender to pull out the basic cylinder shape of the leg, then use mainly the add egdes tool to draw in the basic topology flow
I try to use as few polygons as possible at all times, you can see the cage is not really that dense except in aras where it's absolutely necessary to get the deformation required, whih makes it easy to tweak later on.
You can also see here why the ribcage area was so tricky - just look at that dense mess of polys that were required to do the work.

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/bodywire.jpg

TimMehmet
04-26-2006, 08:17 AM
:o As completly idiotic as it may sound, I had never use Drag Network before, just the magnet tool which was really fiddly to work right. I just tried dragnet and its working just the way I wanted :o Im SERIOUSLY so greatful for the tip, I feel like such a chump for never using it before,
thanks !

Rod Seffen
04-26-2006, 08:29 AM
THe only drawback of the dragnet tool is that it only affects a contiguous mesh, so if you have two meshes beside each other, you can't drag both at the same time, that's what the magnet tool is for, though it's a lot tricker to use.

olle
04-26-2006, 08:33 AM
This is so beautiful

carlw
04-26-2006, 03:32 PM
Yeah, thats awesome, really nice modelling.

gaiXyn
04-26-2006, 05:30 PM
:bowdown: - U the Man -

I have two questions, what's your polyCount thus far? And do you model from poly face to poly face?

Rod Seffen
04-26-2006, 05:45 PM
The count is 5000, but that's subdivision patches, if I coverted it to polys at the lowest decent resolution, which would make 4 polys for every patch, it would be 20,000.
My method is closer to box modeling for the most part, though I do build up a few difficult areas poly by poly.

Rod Seffen
04-27-2006, 02:26 PM
Done a bit more work on the back. Arms and hands next...

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/fullback.jpg

gaiXyn
04-27-2006, 05:19 PM
So far so good.


I noticed something in your previous post, David's left foot looks a lil big for the rest of his body. I don't know if you've already fixed this, but thought I should let you know anyway.

Rod Seffen
04-27-2006, 05:50 PM
Heh, well fx81 thinks the feet are too small, so...
*shrugs*

brianclark
04-27-2006, 10:19 PM
lookin really amazing man, renders have a nice feel to them

PSR
04-28-2006, 11:09 AM
What an utterly breathtaking demonstration of modelling skills. It's a pleasure to watch your progress in this.

jorust
04-28-2006, 09:01 PM
Excellent job so far oDDity. Only the hard parts left... ;)

Rod Seffen
04-28-2006, 09:36 PM
Heh, there are only hard parts on this model (well ok, his happysack wasn't that tough)

Did the right arm and hand today. Need's more detail yet like wrinkles and veins. I think I'll make the smaller veins with a displacement map, since the mesh would have to be ridiculously high poly to model them in.
THe left arm is only blocked in ATM, needs a lot of work.

6foot5
04-28-2006, 10:27 PM
he looks a tad leaner than the statue, but thats just nitpicking - superb work! :thumbsup:

Rod Seffen
04-28-2006, 10:41 PM
I know what you mean, the muscles are too sharp and defined in the front of the torso, but I can soften and round those out before the end.

Staszek
04-28-2006, 11:47 PM
im very imprest of your work - looks greate - keep it up!

Fingernail
04-29-2006, 10:40 AM
Sup

good going here

Domarius
04-29-2006, 11:03 AM
Hey oDDity, I remember you saying (a while back now) that you'd never modeled an entire nude model before because you'd never needed to. The statue of David is aiming pretty ****ing high for a first then! And a male is harder to do than a female IMO so yeah, this is pretty amazing.

I was wondering; I've heard that the statue of David was sculpted with a deliberate perspective distortion - the proportions start out at the head too big, and then taper down smaller as you go down the body. The reason was so that when people looked up at it, it seemed to be in correct proportion. (All photos you see of the statue are straight on, so this feature is rarely appreciated)

Would you go for a direct replica, or model it in correct proportions for viewing straight on?

Rod Seffen
04-29-2006, 01:01 PM
Since the purpose of this challenge is to model it as close to the real thing as possible, that's what I'll be aiming to do.
I also think he made the head and hands slightly too big as well.

fx81
04-29-2006, 10:42 PM
i got a lot of crits for your recent renders but may be i should hold that for now since you said that you are gonna tweak it all at the end.
just as a heads up i think the over all shape is close but the details need severe corrections.

Bao2
04-29-2006, 10:58 PM
Please, next renders with some less grain, half than just now and I think it can be
looking even better.
I really like this model. I enjoy so much looking the progress!

Domarius
04-30-2006, 12:48 AM
Hey Bao2 (haha) the grain is the result of a quick render, understandable as these are just previews. I think oDDity likes a bit of "photo grain" on his images anyway.

ts-falcon
04-30-2006, 06:37 AM
holy crap very nice model...less garin and itll be amazing :D gj so far

Rod Seffen
04-30-2006, 07:57 AM
i got a lot of crits for your recent renders but may be i should hold that for now since you said that you are gonna tweak it all at the end.
just as a heads up i think the over all shape is close but the details need severe corrections.

No, go ahead and say what you have to say, it is the point of this exercise to improve ourselves and that requires honest criticism. I see problem areas myself, and am going to do a lot of tweaking with the remaining time, but you've probably seen errors I haven't.
This is, after all, my first full nude male figure, so I wouldn't claim to be an expert on anatomy.
I should point out that I am following the anatomy of the david, and not resorting to generic anatomy at any point. This does make it look odd in places, especially the upper back, but that's the way it is in the statue.

RobertoOrtiz
04-30-2006, 02:44 PM
TWO WEEKS TO GO! (MAY 15th):Hardcore Modeling Challenge: THE DAVID! (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=352022)
Just a reminder

-R

fx81
04-30-2006, 07:10 PM
ok, i circled most of the areas that caught my eye. i had more suggestions but i couldnt find the latest arm renders i saw earlier.

http://www.fx81.com/temp/sd.jpg

i changed the light position of the scanview to match yours for a better comparison.
the transition between the right thigh and shin needs work.
basicaly you may need to sit and compare the muscles individualy with the scan view and change the light position in scanview to see the exact shape of everything.

Rod Seffen
04-30-2006, 10:27 PM
Yep, that's what I'm going to do. I wanted to finish the basic modeling first, and I have now (apart from the hair) I still have 2 weeks to spruce it up and add more detail.

gaiXyn
04-30-2006, 10:36 PM
It's coming along nicely bud.

Rod Seffen
04-30-2006, 11:32 PM
The hair is going to be a total boring pain in the ass. Not hard, just long and tedious.

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/sides.jpg

Staszek
05-01-2006, 12:16 AM
yeah - fast work - 2 weeks and you should make it right- for now -you now :)

Rod Seffen
05-02-2006, 12:28 AM
Been working a bit more on the face. I'm quite happy with this now, unless anyone else has something to say.
Now, on to the damn hair...

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/face1.jpg

Bao2
05-02-2006, 12:56 AM
Looks very well.
Yes moving on to the spaguetti plate (hair).

Why so much grain in your renders? Are you rendering with Maxwell or a render the
same style (more time less grain)?

gaiXyn
05-02-2006, 04:44 AM
very good looking face, perhaps David's brother? It looks like David but then it doesn't :shrug: Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Just got home from work and I'm lil tired. I'll look at it more and see what's off about it. But good job tho.


and for some reason, I like the grain. I think it makes it look more realistic, like a photo rather than a render from a computer.

Rod Seffen
05-02-2006, 08:00 AM
Yes, as was mentioned by Domarius eariler, I've always liked grain. I don't know what people have against it. It has no place in certain shots obviosuly, like promotional shots of cars etc, but it has some artistic value for things like this,.

mahmoudcg
05-02-2006, 08:59 AM
hey oddity, your model is just great
i like more the back of the model, good job

TimMehmet
05-02-2006, 03:40 PM
heya,
this is progressing really nice, but theres something about the face that doesnt seem right somehow, I think its a bit on the chubby side going by that last render, and also the ridge on the nose seems a bit on the thin size.

fx81
05-02-2006, 05:24 PM
there are lot of things you need to fix to get the likeness
ill try to point some of them out(i didnt mark them out this time so you can compare it easily)
*the whole anatomy of the nose, the nasal cartilage needs to be wider
*the eyes are open wider or shall i say they are bigger
*there needs to be more space between the hair and the brows
*the shapes between the eyebrows(frontal bone) needs to be smoother and wider
*the corner of the lips to the lower chick need to blend in softer
*watch the hight on the fold on the lower eye lid
*the shape of the nostril
*the overall shape of the jaw
*the lower lips

thats all for now, hope that helps
http://www.fx81.com/temp/h2.jpg

Rod Seffen
05-02-2006, 09:32 PM
Ok, thanks for the feedback. I did some more adjusting. I don't quite trust those scanview images, they suffer badly from perspective diatortion.

Intervain
05-03-2006, 12:59 AM
I like how you're dealing with the hair but the locks on the front of the sculpture are falling down while yours seem to be coming down...
your nose seems to be too sharp around the bridge and the ears are a bit 'flat' in comparison to the original.

great going over all, though...:thumbsup:

fx81
05-03-2006, 02:00 AM
nice render amd lighting. i like the noise too, makes it look more real.
are you using fprime or g2 or something else

gaiXyn
05-03-2006, 06:03 AM
Cool! can you show a wireframe of that?

Rod Seffen
05-03-2006, 07:13 AM
Sure.
I use fprime to speed up the radiosity rendering. Lightwave would take an hour to render this, and fprime does it in a few minutes.

Rod Seffen
05-03-2006, 04:52 PM
The (nearly) finshed piece wth his new face and hair.
Just some final tweaking of muscle topology, and since I have plenty of time left, I will texture and render it as well.

fx81
05-03-2006, 04:55 PM
arent you modeling that thing behind the right leg ? looks odd without it.

one tiny correction, probably gonna take a min
the definition between the pectoral muscles needs to come down at a diagonal and straight:

http://www.fx81.com/temp/ce.jpg

gaiXyn
05-03-2006, 05:39 PM
Sure.
I use fprime to speed up the radiosity rendering. Lightwave would take an hour to render this, and fprime does it in a few minutes.

thx for the wire oDDity, you're a very good modelor. I'm loving the model so far. There some things that are off, but there's still alot of time left. And with fx81 in your corner, there's no telling how much better it'll be.

Rod Seffen
05-03-2006, 05:58 PM
Yup, well, there's just so many places to go wrong with this thing) I've never spent so long on a model before.

Staszek
05-03-2006, 06:11 PM
looks very good now
there is something..wrong in the head -shape- its too much 'bounce' in the upper forehead - from eyes line -- hairs- nice technicue-very nice:) but overall shape its little diferent
generaly looks fine,
for now greate job - keep going and result will be greate!

Rod Seffen
05-03-2006, 10:22 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by bounce in the upper forehead.
Here's some more sides, it's not all about the front.

Staszek
05-03-2006, 10:35 PM
sorry for my english.
upper front part of the head seems to be a little pinched up and forward to much - just sugestion, check it out

Rod Seffen
05-04-2006, 11:47 AM
I know the hair is different, but I'd probably go insane spending 2 or 3 days trying to model the hair exactly the way it is on the statue, it would just be so intensely boring work.
As fx81 said, the hair was pretty arbitrary anyway, Michaelangelo probably didn't even carve most of it himself, he'd have an apprentice to do some of the less important work like that.

Rod Seffen
05-04-2006, 11:54 PM
I did a turntable animation of the model. (http://208.49.149.118/TheDarkMod/Ironworks/david.avi) (500kb xvid avi)
Looks pretty cool, even if I do say so myself...
It's helpful as well, because I spotted a few areas that need fixed..

fx81
05-05-2006, 03:07 AM
not a fan of avi, quicktime is the only good format for a turntable i would say since you can scrub through the frames in realtime.
good compressions for quicktime are sorenson or even better H.264

Rod Seffen
05-05-2006, 06:42 AM
Download virtualdub (http://virtualdub.sourceforge.net/), it's free and you can using the arrow keys to scrub back and forth.
Or media player classic lets you do it the same way.
I found making a Quicktime compression to the same file size turns out far lower quality than xvid.

fx81
05-05-2006, 11:38 AM
media player classic doesnt scrub back and forth in realtime, at least it didnt for your file
and even though i have the all the latest codec i couldnt load your file in virtualDub because of divx.

however, i loaded another avi file in virtualDub and you can only scrub forward in realtime but not backward. technicaly that not scrubing in realtime.

your file doesnt have to be quicktime, its your choise but im just saying when it comes to modeling reels and turntables Quicktimes are prefered more than any other format. now the quicktime with sorenson can be like 2mb with sorenson instead of 500kb but thats a small compromise i think.

Pooyag
05-06-2006, 08:20 AM
wow dude....i'm just amazed how Great you can model....it's just awsome....
Keep it up man!:thumbsup:

Rod Seffen
05-06-2006, 09:53 AM
Thank's, it's been a lot of hard work for 2 weeks.
Mashru, I don't know why virtualdub woudn't play the file, since that's what I used to compress it to xvid in the first place. You can definitely srub back and forth using the timeslider in virtualdub (ok the backscrubbing is a little stuttering in places) plus the file size is 3-4 times smaller for the same quality, so I think it is a better option than quicktime.
I think I've finsihed wiht the modeling now, though everyt ime I render I see some other small thing that isn't quite rght...
I am in two minds whether to bother texturing it or not.
I don't think any fo us should be texturing really, since this is a modeling contest and textures tend to make the modeling harder to see, it's best just to let the naked model (pun intended) speak for itself rather than pretty it up with fancy surface details.

PhuongDPh
05-06-2006, 10:32 AM
very nice !
Sorry I have no comments
Good luck !

fx81
05-06-2006, 08:48 PM
only thing your missing is that thing behind his right leg.

Intervain
05-07-2006, 12:33 AM
great work :wip:

Rod Seffen
05-08-2006, 10:31 AM
Ok, I'm going to call this one finished now. I could carry on tweaking it forever, but I've reached saturation point.
I'm not posting an orthographic bottom view, since it just shows a flat grey square (the plinth) or an orth front view, since the main render is already the orth front view.
I definitely learned a lot about anatomy from modeling this, it's the first anatomically correct figure I've done, and I am goign to go on and study anatomy even more in the coming months, until I have it all memorized and can model a character without reference.

edit: see latest render on last page.

gaiXyn
05-08-2006, 12:49 PM
It looks good. I especially like the top view, I think his hair just looks awesome. I think the back view lighting could do with some work. Alot of details seems to have gotten lost. Tho it's not present too much in the scanView model, I like your chisel/hard look of your David.

You said you're not going to mess/tweak with the model anymore, so let me say that your model, lighting and compostion looks good.

Rod Seffen
05-08-2006, 01:46 PM
It should be noted that the scanview model is not entirely accurate, it scanned it down to a few milimetres or something, but a lot of details are chiseled sharper on the real model and look rounded and softer in the scanview copy because the resolution isn't high enough.
I think the best way to see it is the turntable animation

gaiXyn
05-08-2006, 02:50 PM
It should be noted that the scanview model is not entirely accurate, it scanned it down to a few milimetres or something

Ah! I didn't know that, I like the chiseled look anyway, so good work reguardless.

RobertoOrtiz
05-08-2006, 03:07 PM
FYI

ONE WEEK TO GO :The Hardcore Modeling MINI-Challenge #1: The David (MAY 15th) (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=354766)

ROBERTOS BULLHORN: Expanded RULES for the FINAL RENDER (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=354104)

-R

Rod Seffen
05-08-2006, 03:50 PM
What? Only a week to go and so much left to do!

Sercox
05-08-2006, 08:20 PM
Incredible modeling-skills. Almost impossible to see things to fix.
But his neck must be a bit shorter and more fat. Overall the body must be fatter (legs i.e), and the muscles on the stomac must be smoother :)
Some things that I think would be great hehe

-Robert

fx81
05-09-2006, 01:32 AM
What? Only a week to go and so much left to do!

yes, now start being pedantic for Michelageno's sake.

habs111
05-09-2006, 02:39 AM
Can you give us a short tutorial on how you made the hair? For some reason I just cant do it. Thanks.

Rod Seffen
05-09-2006, 08:00 AM
I just made a few curls and coped and pasted them around his head, tweaking them into different shapes and positions with dragnet soft selection tool.
It's not accurate to the model, it has the right volume and mass, which is all that matters, I wasn't going to learn anthing by trying to copy that hair exactly.
The reason I stopped is because I'm not going to learn anything more from doing this. Trying to tweak every muscle and joint in the entire body into the exact shape and position michelangleo decided to place them is not really very helpful, it's just tedious and frustrating.
As far as I'm concerned this is all about personal learning, and I've leaned a lot, it' not about mindlessly copying someone elses work. You could build a machine to make *exact* copies of sculptures, it's becomes an empty and pedantic excercise after a certain point.

fx81
05-09-2006, 11:47 AM
The reason I stopped is because I'm not going to learn anything more from doing this. Trying to tweak every muscle and joint in the entire body into the exact shape and position michelangleo decided to place them is not really very helpful, it's just tedious and frustrating.
As far as I'm concerned this is all about personal learning, and I've leaned a lot, it' not about mindlessly copying someone elses work. You could build a machine to make *exact* copies of sculptures, it's becomes an empty and pedantic excercise after a certain point.

well, thats a little hypocritical i would say because copying it is exactly what we all are trying to achieve. its all about observation and applying our observation with our skils. you started copying the bigger things in the statue but when it comes to the smaller details you say its mindless copying? so why did you copy the over all anatomy, just because its easier? if copying the smaller details is mindless, so is copying the entire statue.

Rod Seffen
05-09-2006, 12:25 PM
Well, muscles are more or less the same on every human onnthe large scale, so it's not exactly copying. There are minor differences between what Michelangelo did and what generic anatomy is like, and that's where the artistry shows through, however, you could build a machine to make an exact copy. Making an exact copy of anything, whether it's a sculpture or a building, is not an artistic achievment, it's a cold, technical exercise, and I've already learned as much as I'm going to from this exercise.

Staszek
05-09-2006, 01:02 PM
Your model is good but its not exacly like model of David - looks slimar but not exacly - not just anatomy - proportions, shapes.
Oryginal model have lot musces witch are visible in the different light sets(as you now) - and i think to copy them you need much more time - especially if you want to do this exacly.
Its not important to just add the muscles in the places. In this sculpt whole skill is in the behavior muscles and other organics in this pose. How differenrt is hand or leg in the other position. how gravity works on the mass of organics. how different is distance between muscles in the other position. and all of this is with specially changed proportions from bottom view.
I think you need to use this last week for better overall proportion not details. Detail is not so important when form is wrong. you want to learn - learn

Rod Seffen
05-09-2006, 04:24 PM
The only proprtion difference I can see is, as Sercox pointed out, the neck is too long and the shoulders too low. It just goes to show that I haven't been obsessively modeling against a background photo the whole time. I started off with one, but have been winging it since I got the basic blocked in.

I will fix the neck, and I'm overlaying my model onto a photograph of David in photoshop to check, not relying on screenshots from that scanview model, which suffers from perspective distortion.

rodrigogua
05-09-2006, 05:40 PM
hi there!! awesome model

my only crit would be the right nipple (in front view) i think it is a bit too raised. someone with such pectorals should have it much lower

Rod Seffen
05-09-2006, 06:59 PM
THe nipples on the statue are very high to start with. Too high I would say, but you can't criticise Michelangelo, people will tell you he had a reason for everything he did, even things that seem like errors at first glance.
Anyway, I fixed the neck, and changed the lighting (it's amazing how much changing the lighting makes to this) If you check it against this (http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/david.jpg) picture, I think the proportions are just about identical.

fx81
05-09-2006, 10:36 PM
Rod, if i have your permission i could point out a number of things including proportions that need correction. some of them seems major to me, but its up to you.

Rod Seffen
05-10-2006, 07:10 AM
Lol, you don't need to ask for my permission, go ahead.

maxedwin
05-10-2006, 11:29 AM
hi,

I think you r a bit mistaken about the scanview model, the dissortion on the scanview model is actually very small. It seems like its viewed as a miniature model rather than huge statue.

So actually, the really zoomed out view on the scanview is the closest thing to being orthograph, rather than images from the internet.

Rod Seffen
05-12-2006, 08:47 AM
That's not true.
Take screenshots in scanview from the front and back. Take them into photoshop and overlay them, flip the back shot so it matches the front in silhouette, and you'll see big perspective distortion compared to what you get if you screenshot front and back in orthograhpic viewports.

Anyways...what about this render setup? I think it shows more topology than the other ones.
Full colour or blue tinted?

Rod Seffen
05-12-2006, 09:03 PM
Another render test.
http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/test5.jpg

fx81
05-12-2006, 10:11 PM
Take screenshots in scanview from the front and back. Take them into photoshop and overlay them, flip the back shot so it matches the front in silhouette, and you'll see big perspective distortion compared to what you get if you screenshot front and back in orthograhpic viewports.


that has nothing to do with perspective distortion of the scanview model.
you can take screenshot of any model from back and front with non-ortho cameras and they will never be same. thats simple perspective foreshortening.

if you do a rapid prototyping of the scnview model in the exact scale of the master piece it will be the same except for the places where they couldnt scan properly. i would say scanview model is pretty much identical. otherwise the people at stanford wouldnt go to all that trouble just to make a 3d version thats distorted.

anyways, looking at the silhouette of your model i found some major corrections that you could consider.

http://www.fx81.com/temp/rd.jpg

the proportions of the right foot needs major work

the position of the nipples need work

the right bicep and the transition between the neck and the shoulder also need work

the also seems to be oriented differently. take a look at that.

these are some of the major issues i think needs work before you can call it finished IMO.

but considering this is your first ever human anatomy model this is really impressive work in such a short time.

Rod Seffen
05-12-2006, 10:38 PM
Ok, I've got the weekend to make final adjustments, thanks for pointing them out.

gaiXyn
05-13-2006, 05:15 PM
personally I prefer the last set of renders you got on page 8, but I guess this is a challenge about modeling the David as close as possible and not about your own style/version of him.

habs111
05-13-2006, 07:14 PM
I actually prefer the last render to the plain renders on page 8 I've never really seen a render quite like this one. But actually the very first render on 8 is my favorite.

Side by side the biggest difference is his face, and his neck. Everything else looks very good.

Rod Seffen
05-14-2006, 09:15 AM
Ok, I think I've finally nailed down the final model and render I want.

habs111
05-14-2006, 03:11 PM
Wow thats a really good render. I think you need to increase your aliasing settings, or final father settings because there are bumps and artifacts all over your images.

Rod Seffen
05-14-2006, 03:33 PM
That's mostly a dirtmap I put in the specular channel. ALso it's quite a low res jpg to save bandwidth, so there are artifacts from that.

fx81
05-14-2006, 04:16 PM
well one can only do so many corrections, so i think this is ok for the moment.

however, some areas like the silhouette of the left hip(right side) needs to have a smoother transition; the hip to waist area i marked on the above image.

also one thing i forgot to mention is that the big toe on his left foot isnt in the right pose.

Rod Seffen
05-14-2006, 04:28 PM
Heh, well, those couple of things will have to stay, because I can't be bothered doing all the front/side/closeup renders again, the phototshop colour/level tweaks, etc, and I'm currently halfway through rendering the new turntable animation.

Rod Seffen
05-14-2006, 06:58 PM
HEre we go again, but I'm really finished this time) I'm not posting an orthographic bottom view, since it just shows a flat grey square (the plinth) or an orth front view, since the main render is already the orth front view.
I definitely learned a lot about anatomy from modeling this, it's the first anatomically correct figure I've done, and I am going to go on and study anatomy even more in the coming months, until I have it all memorized and can model a character without reference.

This is all pure poly modeling, no zbrush, no displacement or bump maps were used in the making of this model.

Link to 1600x1200 image. (http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/davidfinalbig.jpg)

Link to turntable animation (http://208.49.149.118/MOG/LOG/david_turn.avi)

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/davidfinalsmall2.jpg

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/finaltop.jpg

http://www.pixelwerks.be/pictures/orthfinal2.jpg

Fingernail
05-15-2006, 11:49 AM
You've outdone yourself, it's breathtaking.

As to whether you'll win... you're up against some stiff competition. The weakest point is that you didn't do the hair "properly" but it still looks pretty good.

Otherwise, it's a great entry, and very accurate.

Rod Seffen
05-15-2006, 12:34 PM
Hehe, yup, laziness always gets me in the end.
Anyway, good luck in Gateshead on Saturday. You're probably glad they're not broadcasting it live on TV, it's edited and shown later. I'd be as nervoius as f**k if it was live.

LAV
05-16-2006, 10:23 PM
Loud songs of triumph for you! I see now your model and I think it's one of the best tribute to David I can imagine.
Congrats

Rod Seffen
05-16-2006, 10:48 PM
Thank you. I guess it means more coming form an Italian)
*ahem* the voting thread is just below this one *cough*
:D

cesarmontero
05-17-2006, 03:44 AM
I normally don't post on CGTalk to give critique, and normally don't give critique about modelling since I believe I am not that expert to critique it. I'm amazed by the model and how you did not used zbrush in order to learn modelling. You dealt with critique in a positive way. Congratulations! It is a really great piece!

RobertoOrtiz
05-17-2006, 03:47 AM
You should post more often with us your thoughts and ideas.

We have a very cool community running here.
:)

-R

Rod Seffen
05-17-2006, 07:14 AM
I normally don't post on CGTalk to give critique, and normally don't give critique about modelling since I believe I am not that expert to critique it. I'm amazed by the model and how you did not used zbrush in order to learn modelling. You dealt with critique in a positive way. Congratulations! It is a really great piece!

Thnaks.
I'd like to thank the critics actually, especially fx81 who gave me a lot of detailed analysis and made me see things and change the model for the better.
I need a perfectionist like that looking over my shoulder every time I make a model, because I tend towards laziness)

3mm
05-22-2006, 05:06 AM
Congratulation!

it so good ,my only crit is the head of David and the mouth.

anyway it's one of the best.:)

RobertoOrtiz
05-22-2006, 12:22 PM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/robertoortiz1/cgtalk/17.gif

Congtraz!

-R

toonafish
05-22-2006, 11:53 PM
wow, congrats !! I saw just stumbled upon this thread and I'm impressed, that's some impressive modeling, inspiring stuff.

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