China software still a pirate's game (UPDATE: OT FAKE FERRARI?)

[yinako]

you can not stop piracy in china just like you can't stop p2p, or the internet for that matter, once its there its there to stay.

[tcbcoolscene]

you can not stop piracy in china just like you can't stop p2p, or the internet for that matter, once its there its there to stay.

Thats a pretty hard call, I will see what happens in 5 years before I start saying can't.

[Stahlberg]

It's not just China, or even Asia, it's rampant in most developing and undeveloped countries... for obvious reasons. A guy who only makes a few cents a day is hardly able to pay the same price we do for content, yet he wants it just as badly as we do. There's billions of him and so easy to supply their need - an irresistable market.

And when I say rampant, I mean it's so common you can't find legal copies even if you try.
The more a government cracks down, the more business for the remaining players, and the more lucrative it seems, and new pirates jump in and more officials get bribed etc.
You can try to close the stores, they'll just sell it from vans or bicycles for a while, and then open a new store somewhere else. You can't find the production places because they can be hidden in any small apartment. The general public aren't going to lift a finger to help, obviously if piracy disappears their household budgets would soar and they'd get less entertainment for their buck.

There are only two ways to stamp out piracy permanently.
1. Raise living standards for the poorest up to near industrialised levels, or
2. lower prices on content down to near what the pirate copies cost.
Well, the birdflu might do it too... or maybe not.

[utchamp]

And also the fact that they have almost nothing to lose so they don't have to worry about getting in trouble for pirating games

[MK2]

?

Yeah... these asians have nothing to loose... they dont love their kids and dont have friends or families. So getting executed or going to jail is nothing for them... because they have nothing to loose.

?

[Flog]

I always hate when they say they lose money to piracy. For the most part they did not lose money, cause those same people who bought the $2 version (funny cause they actually BOUGHT IT, not stole it off the internet) would not fork up $249 for Windows, they cannot afford it.

If any software company wants to actually make money in those countries, sell a discounted price at standard of living costs. Sell in bulk. I mean you are talking about a huge market you can sell in bulk.

1 Billion people live in China, just think how much bigger your market is, so yeah you should sell at reduced prices per cost of living in the region.

If you want the money you'll have to make a deal. The Chinese folks buying these copies are not opposed to buying software( they pay for it from pirates) but they are not going to be able to afford it any other way (hence you wouldn't have made a sale anyways)

Everything else from cars, housing, food, GASOLINE, DRUGS/Narcotics etc is a differant price in each country per cost of living, why should movies and software be any differant? If you want their green then you have to play in the market they live in to get that money not be solely based on US pay. Hahaha even the drug dealers know how to play a market.

There are obviously a ton of Asian people buying these products, just not at the price folks want to set. Oh well your loss.

Not that I agree with piracy, but I also agree with playing a market and making things fair for that market or comparable, and stop crying if you don't want to play that market. You were never going to get that money anyway.

It's like selling a house. Whatever market and area that house is in, is how it will be priced. Don't be mad if you price your house at a 100,000 dollars and the neighborhood houses are all going for 50,000, and yours is not selling. Your overpriced for that market

And those big companies that are thinking that way and charging so high in a lower market are just as greedy and evil as the pirates who sell bootlegs.

For the pirates it's all about the bottom line, for the large corporate software company the same holds true.

They are all just greedy people whichever way you look at it on both ends. They are not happy making $4-40 dollars a copy, they want to make $249 a copy.

[charleyc]

I agree that setting prices per a countries financial abilities could be a way to increase legit sales. However, a couple things come to mind. With software, what is to stop people from buying in that country and using elsewhere. If you reduced a $5,000 piece of software to $500, it would be well worth a companies efforts to either buy there and use elsewhere, or make a presence there in order to lower software costs. Another things that comes to mind is this, how does someone making pennies a day afford a computer to use this software on? Finally, if legit sales are reduced, illegal sales will reduce as well. This by itself would not be enough to stop piracy. Especially if there has been no education as to it being wrong. The governments are the ones who initially need to step in and make it known that this is not accepted and if you do so, you are breaking the law.

It should also be noted that in countries that do not perceive this as a major offence, more people are apt to get and spread the illegal software. And with the internet, that means spreading it to countries that could easily afford to buy legit (like the US).

And contrary to what some people think, piracy does cost development companies money. There are MANY cases of non-legit users making money (and many times a living) off illegal software. These people do a number of things that hurt the developer. First, they are seats being properly used that have not been properly paid for. Second, they reduce the overhead of those people/companies giving them an unfair advantage in the market place, which in turn hurts the legit people/companies making it more difficult for them to stay in business and continue to support the developer.

Software piracy is stealing. In no country is stealing readily permitted (except when it comes to intellectual properties). Until it is thought and treated as such, it will not even begin to go away. I truly hope China is sincere in it's desire to combat this within its borders.

[enygma]

Interesting thing. I can't remember the name of the person but he had worked on an engineering textbook that is widely used among schools and such. He had went to visit China and found that the schools there were using unauthorized copies of the book. It seemed like normal every day life to them, like piracy is just a normal thing to them.

It is the same thing with intellectual properties. I think another engineer I had talked to about it when he published the schematics to a product he was working on, he intentionally put a small mistake in it, mainly because he had had schematics ripped off and marketed in China before. Next thing you know, a company in China starts manufacturing buggy versions of his device... :D

I don't think there is really a way to get around it. The country at this point is probably going to feel a wealth of entitlement to be able to do things that around here, are deemed illegal, and have the big boys knocking at your door if you slip up.

[umfridus]

Interesting thing. I can't remember the name of the person but he had worked on an engineering textbook that is widely used among schools and such. He had went to visit China and found that the schools there were using unauthorized copies of the book. It seemed like normal every day life to them, like piracy is just a normal thing to them.

I learnt from a friend in Tsinghua (the most renowned university in China) that pirated software is widely used there as well. Even for production/academic software that everybody needs and uses (such as MATLAB in some engineering disciplines), the university doesn't provide any legit copies and students acquire them from other means.

The Chinese government just claimed that none of its agencies is using pirated software; I find it amusing that it can even put on a straight face. I agree that piracy is somewhat like a way of life for them and taken for granted. Cars and overseas vacations are rapidly becoming common in many Chinese cities so I don't see how it seems that nobody can afford legit software.

[neonneo]

im more worried about them getting oil then getting games.

[Flog]

You said it. LOL. I think China has other things to worry about than software, movies and games.


More like Oil, Food, and Water

[EvilGnome]

This is more a concern when you have to compete with companies which don't have to spend much/anything on software because they're from a country with lax copyright laws.

[Flog]

but it's that same cost of living your going to have to compete with anyways.


When you get paid 3,000 dollars per model, they are getting paid 300 dollars a model. That's why those evil companies outsource your jobs as well. Your going to have to compete with cheap labor at the same time, so I think their software is just a tip of the iceberg for competing with you. It's that labor and cost of living that will get you and get them the job

[JeffB]

You are all forgetting that China is a communist country. They do not have intellectual property rights. All property belongs to everyone. (in theory).

Besides, I have worked for companies here in the states (in game development) that advocated using non-licensed software. Ever work in a company that bought one copy of Photoshop to share between artists?

Jeffrey Baker
Computer Animation Instructor
New Mexico State University

[P_T]

The Chinese government just claimed that none of its agencies is using pirated software; I find it amusing that it can even put on a straight face. I agree that piracy is somewhat like a way of life for them and taken for granted. Cars and overseas vacations are rapidly becoming common in many Chinese cities so I don't see how it seems that nobody can afford legit software.

You should know how it works mate. They presented the government with a budget that covers the real cost of the software then go out and get the pirated copy. Real cost= $300 > pirated copy= $3 > $297 x however many licenses they supposed to get into own pocket.

With better relationship between China and USA, the govt would probably start to really crack down on piracy. I don't really think they can get the small shops but at least China's own government agencies won't be able to get away with it anymore.

[Stahlberg]

how does someone making pennies a day afford a computer to use this software on?
Yeah, I wasn't thinking of business software really, the market for pirated movies and games is much bigger, like orders of magnitude bigger... a big family or even group of neighbours can usually afford a small tv and a simple dvd player, but not cable. So they turn to dvd's or vcd's for their entertainment, some as cheap as 1 usd. Before they can be expected to pay 20 - 30 usd a piece their income has to improve a little. :)

[darkjedi1929]

Firstly, I don't want to anger anybody here or even give the impression that I support software piracy. I am only presenting the view of a person living in India and hi reaction to software prices.

The average income of a decent Indian middle class is somewhere around Rs. 500,000

That boils down to Rs. 40,000 a month roughly.

One copy of Maya complete costs you Rs.90,000, which is two times their monthly income. Maya Unlimited is Rs. 200,000 odd.

You can actually go out and buy a used car for the price of a Maya complete. Now put yourself in this position. All you have is scooter. Your kid has a passion for 3D Animation and wants to buy Maya. You need a car. What do you do?

In fact, the view above is actually of a well off family. A lot of families earn well below that mark. So should budding animators actually give up their dreams? Oh, and before telling me about PLE and Blender, I would like to tell you this: in India, the animation market to a large extent is not artist, but software specific. Everybody wants a Maya or Max Animator, where in reality they should be looking for a 3D Animator. Therefore, more and more young guys get caught in the trap that "if I don't know Maya, I am sunk". And everybody knows you just can't render with PLE, I mean how would you like it if you had a big fat ugly watermark all over your best work, even if it's just a playblast. And believe me, other than Max or Maya, you just don't find any other software being used. XSI, to the best of my knowledge, is limited to an elite few.

[mangolass]

China is making a huge amount of progress every year. Millions of people are going to college, and a lot of bright, talented people are starting to write software and start their own software companies.

It might take a few more years, but software in China isn't always something they'll look to the US for and want to ripp off as cheaply as possible ~ it's going to become a domestic industry, and then companies will need to make a profit from what they have created.

LT

[Stahlberg]

China is making a huge amount of progress every year. Millions of people are going to college, and a lot of bright, talented people are starting to write software and start their own software companies.

It might take a few more years, but software in China isn't always something they'll look to the US for and want to ripp off as cheaply as possible ~ it's going to become a domestic industry, and then companies will need to make a profit from what they have created.

Quoted for full agreement. Give it a decade or two or three - sooner or later China will dominate the world with it's entertainment and software, just as the US dominates now. India will probably be a close second. :)

[Lunatique]

Here's another problem though--local talents can't make a living because their softwares are pirated too! Filmmakers, musicians, programmers..etc in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong..etc all have to live with piracy of their products, and as the result, musicians and actors have to take on alternative income to even make a living--for example, do TV commercials, appear on vareity shows..etc. It's always been a tragegic sight to watch a very talented musician to have to appear on variety shows to basically play stupid physical games, get interrogated by the hosts with embarrassing questions..etc just to remain in the public eye--all because they can't sell enough of their CD's even if they are very popular.

[phexitol]

Here's another problem though--local talents can't make a living because their softwares are pirated too! Filmmakers, musicians, programmers..etc in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong..etc all have to live with piracy of their products, and as the result, musicians and actors have to take on alternative income to even make a living--for example, do TV commercials, appear on vareity shows..etc. It's always been a tragegic sight to watch a very talented musician to have to appear on variety shows to basically play stupid physical games, get interrogated by the hosts with embarrassing questions..etc just to remain in the public eye--all because they can't sell enough of their CD's even if they are very popular.

I can think of a few American "musicians" I'd love to see have to do these things :twisted:

What's funny about the whole thing is that Microsoft set up manufacturing facilities in China to take advantage of cheap labor. As the saying goes, turnabout is fair play.

[Glenfx]

Another things that comes to mind is this, how does someone making pennies a day afford a computer to use this software on?

This is funny. If you actually lived in a country like china or any latin country, youll notice that we get "crap" hardware.. hense lower prices. the average home computer is worth around 500 to 600US$ and people pay it in 12 trough 24 cuotes. (thatlll be 25$ a month and its not easy to pay it eather)

Its easy to rant about piracy in poor countries very lightly since your in a very confortable position. Either way i woudnt worry about microsoft loosing money =P

well, have to go, ill rant later

[Michael5188]

So is it right to steal software just because you don't have the cash? Does it suddenly become ok?

[minminxu]

You are all forgetting that China is a communist country. They do not have intellectual property rights. All property belongs to everyone. (in theory).

Computer Animation Instructor
New Mexico State University

http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon8.gif~~~Mr /Miss instructor~~~

Are you a Instructor?(sweat!!).OK!~~~ despite you are a Instructor,I am only a ignorant chinese young girl,I also must tell you:china is a socialism country!! ~~~it is not a communist country~~~(actually if china is a communist country,then chinese all all egality ,no poor,no scramble,no class consciousness, and no pirate!~ ~~ha ha ~~~Yes ,many people are longing for this dream~~but pity,on this community, if want actualize communist that is impossibility)


PS: intellectual property's implement come down to country's diathesis or political factor or economic factor ......china is just a developing country~~it needs perfect various aspects ~~~~if want put an end to pirate,Above all must advance demotic standard of living~~~~~

minminxu(漱花女农）

[JosephGoss]

Firstly, I don't want to anger anybody here or even give the impression that I support software piracy. I am only presenting the view of a person living in India and hi reaction to software prices.

The average income of a decent Indian middle class is somewhere around Rs. 500,000

That boils down to Rs. 40,000 a month roughly.

One copy of Maya complete costs you Rs.90,000, which is two times their monthly income. Maya Unlimited is Rs. 200,000 odd.

You can actually go out and buy a used car for the price of a Maya complete. Now put yourself in this position. All you have is scooter. Your kid has a passion for 3D Animation and wants to buy Maya. You need a car. What do you do?

In fact, the view above is actually of a well off family. A lot of families earn well below that mark. So should budding animators actually give up their dreams? Oh, and before telling me about PLE and Blender, I would like to tell you this: in India, the animation market to a large extent is not artist, but software specific. Everybody wants a Maya or Max Animator, where in reality they should be looking for a 3D Animator. Therefore, more and more young guys get caught in the trap that "if I don't know Maya, I am sunk". And everybody knows you just can't render with PLE, I mean how would you like it if you had a big fat ugly watermark all over your best work, even if it's just a playblast. And believe me, other than Max or Maya, you just don't find any other software being used. XSI, to the best of my knowledge, is limited to an elite few.


does not matter where you live , i live in the UK, if i asked my dad to buy me maya, there is no way he would ever afford it,
your scenerio is no different to me in the UK,
farthers can no way afford software like maya for thier children
and pirating is no excuse!
if everone took that sort of attitude, there would be no 3D business
get maya learning addition,you don't need commercail packages for your children
we could easily buy a car for the price of maya, same as your scenerio

not every kid in the UK can afford maya, no way!

>joe

[Flog]

and what is funny is most parents won't even know they are buying pirated software, most of the buyers think they are going to the market and buying software.

It's the pirates, not the actual buyers. In the buyers eyes they are actually buying something at a low price.

Yes of course parents from the UK are not just going to go out and buy their kids Maya, but they would probably buy their kid a DVD movie of some kind. The DVD price is a comparable price to the economy. 14-25 USD is about right for a DVD price. And it is something that is affordable, but paying 15-25 dollars a DVD in China is not comparable, it is not a deal by any means.

You have to play in the market you are in. Everyone else does it, why not DVDs, Music, and Software. In China I'm going to get food, drinks, housing, cars, gasoline, and various other products at a cheaper price, why should electronic stuff be any differant.

The same can be said in reverse, why should taking electronic data not be considered stealing. It is stealing.

But why should the same rule not apply to DATA when marketted in another country.

Your in that market so play in that market. Your not in the US or UK market.

And I'm sure alot of those same complaining software companies, dvd companies etc, love taking advantage of the cheap labor. Why don't they pay them more so they can afford more.

No they prefer taking advantage of a lower market with it's cheap labor but love keeping their prices real high when selling in those markets.

Yeah you may not be able to afford Maya's top package at 4,000 dollars, but to some developing countries that 4,000 dollars is like 20,000 dollars.

Piracy is wrong, but many of those folks feel they are buying something and dont' think about property rights. My parents are not even educated on that stuff and we are in a so called "developed" country. All they know is they went to the store and bought something

They don't know about
intellectual property

They go to the store, fork down some money and get a movie.
So in Asian countries they do the same thing, they are not thinking about the legalities of Intellectual property and many are not even aware. Average people are not aware and most folks didn't even think it was illegal to download music till it got to the media. They just thought, cool something from the internet. And you better believe most grown parents didn't know about that either until the RIAA came knocking at their door.

[capin]

It seems to me that China and some other asia countries have no clue what intelectual property is. Percentage of stolen software in there is scary. But a lot more dangerous in my opinion is stealing design and technical solutions. In case of software, the sofware company "just" doesnt sell many copies in those markets. But in seccond case- copied products flood back the countries of origin and really threaten the creators!

[mangolass]

But in seccond case- copied products flood back the countries of origin and really threaten the creators!

Pirated DVD's ~ especially the good ones with color packaging and dobule layer (high quality) ~ they are mostly made in Mainland Chinese factories, even the ones you can buy in markets in Europe or San Francisco. So, right now, they are shipping those all over the world, and the government doesn't raid the factories, they just put on a show of raiding a video store sometimes, and he is usually someone who was unpopular with the local leaders for some reason.

As I said above, all of this will change when there is a domestic reason for it to change, a strong industry developing intellectual property within China that needs to grow, but right now ~ yes, what they pirate goes all over the world.

LT

[darkjedi1929]

What I meant to say was instead of the software companies putting up these HUGE prices, shouldn't they bring down the prices, a la XSI? I mean thats the most affordable package around, if only I had the time (and probably inclination; I am really happy with maya, which by the way is licensed) to learn it. I just don't want to start over again, nobody does.

What I wanted to say was, most guys in India buy pirated software not because they love screwing the software company, but simply because the software prices are beyond their reach. About movie piracy, well, I really don't know what we can do about it, till we don't develop some GOOD copyright laws (which I openly admit that we lack).

[Geese Howard]

Here's another problem though--local talents can't make a living because their softwares are pirated too! Filmmakers, musicians, programmers..etc in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong..etc all have to live with piracy of their products, and as the result, musicians and actors have to take on alternative income to even make a living--for example, do TV commercials, appear on vareity shows..etc. It's always been a tragegic sight to watch a very talented musician to have to appear on variety shows to basically play stupid physical games, get interrogated by the hosts with embarrassing questions..etc just to remain in the public eye--all because they can't sell enough of their CD's even if they are very popular.

No doubt, it's sad when a great singer can't even make a career out of it, they gotta do films and tvshows on the side...

Lunatique - i totally agree with you, it's been 5 years since i've been to HK/China...so i'm kinda scared to see what the market it like there today. But for a guy who's lived in Canada all his life, my jaw just dropped seeing all the stands/shops selling pirated games/movies/music! "Fanban" stuff was all over the place, i went by one shopping plaza where the WHOLE 2nd floor was just shelves and shelves of CD/DVDs wrapped with the cheap little plasticsleeves with a cheap lasercopied paper cover. But what can u do, u close one down and they'll just relocate elsewhere. Also it doesn't help when selling pirated stuff is a means of making money for local triads.

But I don't wanna just point fingers at the Asian countries. The whole world is kinda guilty, P2P, Torrents, download sites, it's the next phase.

Capin - Intellectual property is something Asia just won't get. As long as the "company" or "artist" is making more $ then the common man, it's no skin off their nose. They'll buy the cheaper pirated copy. Another example, even BEFORE this age of pirated media, Asia was reknowned for making products illegaly with copyrighted characters! Remember the blue-skinned AstroBoys on Tshirts? and the reverse-colored Superman runners? don't forget the Fleshcolored Mickey Mouse purses! same idea, they couldn't care less for the creators. It's just the way of living over there.

[dunkelzahn]

I believe that there is a difference between P2P and Bit Torrent and a government which seems to view the abuse of intellectual property as a good way to fix its financial budget, caring nothing about the individuals who once created it by creating proper copyright laws. And we are not just talking about DVD´s, the chinese are notorious for stealing designs of whole industrial complexes.

Sorry to all the chinese on this board who are law-abiding citizens, but it´s just a bare fact that this IS happening on a big scale

[atzfratz]

They will do it till they they have the knowhow to invent worldwide competitive technology on their own. There`s not much you can do about it. And the goverment surely has no interest in stopping them.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Just to make a point on conterfeits...
"Frattini said that the EU was struggling to curb the illegal imports of goods like pirated CDs, DVDs, drugs and even fake Ferrari sports cars, all made in China, which he said pose dangers to consumers and to legitimate businesses"

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/26/business/piracy.php

[FloydBishop]

You can actually go out and buy a used car for the price of a Maya complete. Now put yourself in this position. All you have is scooter. Your kid has a passion for 3D Animation and wants to buy Maya. You need a car. What do you do?

You but the car and tell your kid to download the Personal Learning Edition. It's free you know.

[P_T]

Damn, if people can be fooled into buying a fake ferrari, it musta been a real good knock off. :D

[Flog]

Hey change the name to Ferbari and market it as a Ferbari and make it all legal. Change the design slightly so that it is not a Ferrari, but now a Ferbari and you got yourself a legit car.

If the government does a crackdown, all they will do is change it up slightly and call it something else and make it all legal. They do that all the time in the US and all over the place. Generic vs Name Brand.

Disney made a fortune off Lion King for doing this. Change the name from Kimba to Simba and you have a whole new movie.

You'll have your Panafonics, your Soni, Bell computer, Ferbari. I would love to buy a Ferbari at 10,000 dollars instead of 100,000. LOL.

Hey when you look at the 3d tools out there, how many have some of the same concepts in it?

I do think they should trying to pass it as real though, just a knock off.

I remember when we went to New York Chinatown and they were selling Louis Vatone purses worth 300 bucks for 30 bucks. Yes they were knockoffs, but were they really. When you think about it, those same people making knock offs of a purse or something were the same people in a US sweat factory making the same person.

Come to think of it, wouldn't that make it authentic? The same people making the knock offs were the same people making the real thing. Hmmmm.....?

[mech7]

LoL I Once got a 4 gb USB memory stick from China a friend bought it for me.. It said it was a Sony nice packaging and all.. Put un some data on it, after few hundred mb it just broke down never worked again... Looked on the internet allot of people bought these things on ebay and all had the same problem.
I Would be scared shitless driving one of those ferrari's underway they must loose a wheel or two :surprised It looks ok from the outside but it's crap on the inside

[JTD]

I got cher* cheap Ferrari here (http://www.extreme-sportscars.com/).:)


* "cher" was purposely spelled like that.

[Kabab]

What I meant to say was instead of the software companies putting up these HUGE prices, shouldn't they bring down the prices, a la XSI? I mean thats the most affordable package around, if only I had the time (and probably inclination; I am really happy with maya, which by the way is licensed) to learn it. I just don't want to start over again, nobody does.

What I wanted to say was, most guys in India buy pirated software not because they love screwing the software company, but simply because the software prices are beyond their reach. About movie piracy, well, I really don't know what we can do about it, till we don't develop some GOOD copyright laws (which I openly admit that we lack).
You know why software costs so much because it costs a fortune to have all the programers, support staff, management, marketing, sales channels, royalities, lawers to make these products that everyone takes for granted.

On top of all this people always demand for more innovation and lower costs.

If you look at the cost of products of Maya, XSI, etc compared to comparable CAD packages they are WAY under priced so be happy with the pricing now cause in realilty it should be higher.

And to be honest no one is going to have sympathy for you guys to have lower software costs because it just opens up another avenue for Indian/Chinese companies to under cut companies in more developed nations.

[capin]

I remember when we went to New York Chinatown and they were selling Louis Vatone purses worth 300 bucks for 30 bucks. Yes they were knockoffs, but were they really. When you think about it, those same people making knock offs of a purse or something were the same people in a US sweat factory making the same person.

Come to think of it, wouldn't that make it authentic? The same people making the knock offs were the same people making the real thing. Hmmmm.....?

I think this is very good point.
I personally got recently cought in between these two wheels.
I want to buy a new biketrials frame. I really like this nice french frame (made in china) it costs $1000. But then there is this Chinese brand - perfect copy of french design. Some chinese guy started to crank out these copy-frames in the the same factory as "french" ones are beeing made! The price of the "chinese" frame is $500!

So now, I dont know who I should hate more...

The PRODUCT DESIGNER in me hates that chinese guy who pirates and parazites those who spent lots of time creating that thing.Stealing their money
...THE REGULAR CUSTOMER with tight budget in me- on the other hand- hates those arrogant French who are, as many others, making it somewhere in China and selling it for such a rediculous prices!! Trying to steal my money :-)

[Stahlberg]

And to be honest no one is going to have sympathy for you guys to have lower software costs because it just opens up another avenue for Indian/Chinese companies to under cut companies in more developed nations.

Give it 30 - 60 years or so, the situation will eventually reverse. China and India will be to the world what North America and Europe are today. Mandarin might well replace english as a world language. Creative energy and culture will move mostly from the East to the West instead, and westerners will be copying trends, software and asian brand names.

So stop acting confrontational, and like it's possible to do anything anyway. These are historical forces we're talking about...
and you could spare a little sympathy for people who have a fraction of what you do. It's free.

[Kabab]

Give it 30 - 60 years or so, the situation will eventually reverse. China and India will be to the world what North America and Europe are today. Mandarin might well replace english as a world language. Creative energy and culture will move mostly from the East to the West instead, and westerners will be copying trends, software and asian brand names.

So stop acting confrontational, and like it's possible to do anything anyway. These are historical forces we're talking about...
and you could spare a little sympathy for people who have a fraction of what you do. It's free.
I am sympathic about their living conditions etc... but i have seen soooooo many job losses here as a direct result of this.. I've seen companies that have gone from 140 people to 14 people as a direct result of outsourcing that type of thing makes its hard for me to be sympathetic when someone complains that Maya costs to much.

I just hope we are all here in 60 years :)

[Flog]

I am sympathic about their living conditions etc... but i have seen soooooo many job losses here as a direct result of this.. I've seen companies that have gone from 140 people to 14 people as a direct result of outsourcing that type of thing makes its hard for me to be sympathetic when someone complains that Maya costs to much.

I just hope we are all here in 60 years

It is those same evil companies who love shipping your job overseas for cheaper labor, but not cutting the cost of software for your or for them.

They are just as evil and greedy as the software pirates.

What they ultimately want is piracy gone, but to ship your job off to another country at the same time. They love the cheap labor but no cut for the reduce in price to create.

High prices and outsource jobs. They've taken advantage of Chinese, Indian, Mexican cheap labor for years. Chinese and Asian's just know how to market in their own country. Sell at low prices per the economy.

If corporations want to compete they could, but they are not happy. They are not happy there bonus is only 10 million instead of 11 million.

I think piracy and knocking stuff off is bad, but at the same time I have no sympathy for the large corporations, especially folks like Maya who keep 3d out of the hands of the common man, and don't give me a beef about the "WATERMARKED Learning Edition"

It's like the Pirates of the Caribbean sticking it to the theiving Imperialistic British and Spainards.

You play the market you are in. It's marketting 101.

[noisewar]

It is those same evil companies who love shipping your job overseas for cheaper labor, but not cutting the cost of software for your or for them.

They are just as evil and greedy as the software pirates.

What they ultimately want is piracy gone, but to ship your job off to another country at the same time. They love the cheap labor but no cut for the reduce in price to create.

High prices and outsource jobs. They've taken advantage of Chinese, Indian, Mexican cheap labor for years. Chinese and Asian's just know how to market in their own country. Sell at low prices per the economy.

If corporations want to compete they could, but they are not happy. They are not happy there bonus is only 10 million instead of 11 million.

I think piracy and knocking stuff off is bad, but at the same time I have no sympathy for the large corporations, especially folks like Maya who keep 3d out of the hands of the common man, and don't give me a beef about the "WATERMARKED Learning Edition"

It's like the Pirates of the Caribbean sticking it to the theiving Imperialistic British and Spainards.

You play the market you are in. It's marketting 101.


I hope you kneejerk protectionists have thought out thoroughly what the world would be like if there were no globalization. For all their sins, these evil multinational corporations have done more for modernizing and moving people out of poverty across the globe than all the centuries preceeding the last fifty years. Are you really ready for a non-globalized world? Here you go:

- Soaring domestic prices.
- Worse working conditions in industrialized nations, no work at all in developing nations. Scratch developing.
- No incentive for domestic workers to improve skills and be more competitive than cheap outsource.
- No technology trickling into 3rd world countries.
- Less empowerment of first world countries to help others.
- Less money for R&D.
- Less energy for growth, soaring energy prices. You think it's bad now?
- No vehicle for the spread of democracy and basic civil rights.
- No domestic concern for the fates of emerging economies we aren't dependent on.
- More terrorism.


No one likes what China is doing, but there is no right or wrong about it, it's simply a factor of their culture, their worldwide accountability, and their economic situation. Address these three properly, and give them redress for centuries of instability in which the selfish family unit was honestly the only safe haven for trust, and then you begin to make progress. Judging them by our standards here is as silly as it is correct. By correct, I mean to us.

Trust me, I grew up hating Confucianism, but there is a very good reason it exists in China.

[Kabab]

I would just like to seem them pay and play to the same rules as we do..

Is to much to ask them respect copyright and IP ?

[isoparmB]

Now that everyone has talked about the negative impact of piracy on the companies making the actual legit software, let's consider for a minute the possible positive aspects piracy may have for the 3d industry in general.

I'm not talking about studios using pirated software. Consider for a moment all the talented artists who come from developing countries. Not all of them had the same opportunities some of you may have had, or the resources to improve themselves through education or training with legitimate software. But they have the same drive as anyone else in their craft, and they have their families to think of as well (contrary to what some people might think). In short, there might be a large talent pool of creative and driven individuals who come from developing countries, many of whom are working in animation or vfx, who would never have had the opportunity to enter that career if they had never been able to learn software skills which are otherwise economically beyond their reach. And let's face it, industry benefits from these individuals.

Again, software piracy is wrong. But it's a reality. Just like war, greed, poverty, injustice and the occasional lousy president is reality. But let's look at it from all the possible angles. Moralizing is pretty easy, it's when you get into the reality of things that you begin to understand that it isn't such a clean-cut world we're living in.

[Samo]

Despite periodic crackdowns on piracy, China's has a voracious appetite for cheap, unauthorized copies of software and other digital products.


Capitalist globalisation will forgive this little sin of his predilect son (and some others).

[pearson]

I hope this doesn't come across as a bash, but the East has very different values from the West. Simple things like waiting your turn in line, or what it takes to be honorable, are seen differently. It will take quite a change to reduce piracy in Asia.


I think that the eagerness of western companies to do whatever China wants for a chance to get a piece of the China market isn't helping at all. On the import side we've tried the begging and pleading bit, (hi2u Most Favored Nation status:rolleyes: ) and they have just taken advantage of us. It's about time to slap some hefty tarrifs on all Chinese imports until they stop rigging their currency.

I'm sure it's not that simple...sigh. We must have cheap beads for Mardi Gras, of course! Carry on! :/

[noisewar]

Now that everyone has talked about the negative impact of piracy on the companies making the actual legit software, let's consider for a minute the possible positive aspects piracy may have for the 3d industry in general.


Exactly the right frame of mind to adopt. Radio, TV, print, film, internet, EVERY ONE OF THESE MEDIA has faced "earth-shattering" piracy phases. But the desire for cheap or free content has always driven better forms of content protection, better ways to distribute, and by extension of the latter, ultimately, better content.

One could argue that Napster gave birth to Kazaa, giving birth to iTunes and other systems where artists could get onto a level playing field for distribution instead of fighting for shelves at retailers. They can market themselves. They can even e-commerce themselves, merch themselves, communicate with fans, etc. :buttrock:

Should we stop fighting piracy? Absolutely not. But we can and should learn from it, and adapt around it, not against it.

[Njen]

It's about time to slap some hefty tarrifs on all Chinese imports until they stop rigging their currency./

That will never happen. At least not for a while. You do know that the USA owes close to US$10 trillion to other countries in debt, and a huge proportion of that to China. If the US even looks at China the wrong way, China could bring the US government to it's knees by the debt that they hold.

Youi know how much $10 trillion is? that's $90,000 for each US family. China is the new superpower now...believe it.If I was American, I would be viciously writing to the government and demand them to stop putting the US in debt to China, this would probably mean to stop the "war" in Iraq, which would save the US billions of dollars every month. Then you Americans could start to get your economy on track and not owe China so much money.

[noisewar]

That will never happen. At least not for a while. You do know that the USA owes close to US$10 trillion to other countries in debt, and a huge proportion of that to China. If the US even looks at China the wrong way, China could bring the US government to it's knees by the debt that they hold.

Youi know how much $10 trillion is? that's $90,000 for each US family. China is the new superpower now...believe it.If I was American, I would be viciously writing to the government and demand them to stop putting the US in debt to China, this would probably mean to stop the "war" in Iraq, which would save the US billions of dollars every month. Then you Americans could start to get your economy on track and not owe China so much money.


You do know that China itself is in massive debt too right? You seriously think China could bring the US to its knees atm? The only reason China has had the money to grow its economy is because its surplus has generated tremendous amounts of credit, much of which is marginally reliable. Where does that surplus come from? Give you a hint. Someone with far too much consumption. The scheme both the U.S. and China are pulling is the same one Japan was involved with. The ones who will get hurt? The little folks.

[Flog]

I hope you kneejerk protectionists have thought out thoroughly what the world would be like if there were no globalization. For all their sins, these evil multinational corporations have done more for modernizing and moving people out of poverty across the globe than all the centuries preceeding the last fifty years. Are you really ready for a non-globalized world? Here you go:

- Soaring domestic prices.
- Worse working conditions in industrialized nations, no work at all in developing nations. Scratch developing.
- No incentive for domestic workers to improve skills and be more competitive than cheap outsource.
- No technology trickling into 3rd world countries.
- Less empowerment of first world countries to help others.
- Less money for R&D.
- Less energy for growth, soaring energy prices. You think it's bad now?
- No vehicle for the spread of democracy and basic civil rights.
- No domestic concern for the fates of emerging economies we aren't dependent on.
- More terrorism.


No one likes what China is doing, but there is no right or wrong about it, it's simply a factor of their culture, their worldwide accountability, and their economic situation. Address these three properly, and give them redress for centuries of instability in which the selfish family unit was honestly the only safe haven for trust, and then you begin to make progress. Judging them by our standards here is as silly as it is correct. By correct, I mean to us.

Trust me, I grew up hating Confucianism, but there is a very good reason it exists in China. Oh no, quite the contrary. I was just pointing out how large corporations love taking advantage of a cheaper labor force, but then expect that cheaper labor force to pay full price for things.

They love the advantages of those things, but when it comes to selling things back to them, they are stubborn to keep their high prices and blame them of stealing.

Globalization is cool. Outsourcing in moderation is also cool. In fact I have outsourced to differant countries for some of my works to get done.

I just say if you take advantage of them by cheaper labor don't get mad if they make knockoffs.


I would just like to seem them pay and play to the same rules as we do..

Is to much to ask them respect copyright and IP ?


Actually the rules are the same in this world, everyone for themselves. Not that it is good, but that is the rules.

The powerful feed on the weak the weak live off hte powerful. Greed and money reign supreme. People are not happy with a billion dollars, they want 1 billion 500 million. Money they'll never spend, but need to have obviously (GREED)

there is the have and have nots. Tis the way of the world, it's wrong but it does exist that way.

And honestly if your in someone elses market trying to sell products, it's a rule of business, you play in that market to compete. I think Warner was doing this by starting to sell commercial DVDs for 2 dollars in china

You know why software costs so much because it costs a fortune to have all the programers, support staff, management, marketing, sales channels, royalities, lawers to make these products that everyone takes for granted.

On top of all this people always demand for more innovation and lower costs.

If you look at the cost of products of Maya, XSI, etc compared to comparable CAD packages they are WAY under priced so be happy with the pricing now cause in realilty it should be higher.

And to be honest no one is going to have sympathy for you guys to have lower software costs because it just opens up another avenue for Indian/Chinese companies to under cut companies in more developed nations.

But why does one software cost more than the other? Or why are video games not 5000 dollars to buy. Why are there robust good software for 400 dollars and not 5,000 dollars

Look at Photoshop, Flash, ZBRUSH, Animation Master, Messiah, Silo 3d. They are high priced but not 4-5k.

Alot of research went into them but why are they not costing 1,000s? Just a thought.

[pgp_protector]

Saw this yesterday,

Not only do they copy software, And Cars :D, but whole companies
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060427/0940246.shtml

[P_T]

Uggh... some of the comments in that page just sound like rantings from uneducated hillbillies, which makes me wonder why they're reading a tech website. :D

How many people (westerners/western born asians) here have actually lived for an extended period of time in China or other asian countries? and not just being a tourist/backpacker. I'm just curious coz there are posts about eastern values/honours/way to do business etc.

[leishman]

LOL.....Yes ,The pirate's game and software DVD ect many many in China.. I'm sure ,But many man buy licence game and Software.
I think have not user pirate game and software in any country in World.

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