How do I get rid of these lines?

[AkaKico]

Changing the phong angle should have done it... perhaps if you post the file? Or at least a small part of it?

[Vilandra]

I'll just post the outer hull since its an object by itself. Link Below. The file was too big to upload.


Click Here for Hull .c4d file (http://www.archive.org/download/Hull_1/hull.zip)

[GruvDOne]

Well at first glance on the file I am not sure. I did try the HN, and when I did, it revealed some flaws in your mesh (hyper NURBS are good for that). I am delving a bit deeper now. see if I can figure out what's up.

[Matariki]

I had a quick look at your mesh and found you have way too many polys for that model. Near 60000. SO, I had a look at your edges and found that under each edge are another three edges. I don't know how you extruded or what you did but these overlapping edges ate causing the shading problems you got. Try Optimize to get rid of those extra edges etc.

[GruvDOne]

OK, well while I still don't know the cause, I did discover it is rectifiable. I deleted some polys from one section, and used the Bridge tool to replace them. When I did that area came out smooth (see attached). I think there may have been a misstep during all of the extrusions that you say you did, resulting in some errant 'walls' between faces....

[GruvDOne]

I had a quick look at your mesh and found you have way too many polys for that model. Near 60000. SO, I had a look at your edges and found that under each edge are another three edges. I don't know how you extruded or what you did but these overlapping edges ate causing the shading problems you got. Try Optimize to get rid of those extra edges etc.


Indeed, I can confirm this. After optimizing the edges, and setting the Phong's Angle limit to 40, about 90% of the issue is resolved.. still a couple of areas that need tiding up, but that will get you the majority of the way pdq

[Rantin Al]

It looks like there are a load of co-planar polygons causing the problem.

Cheers, Al.

[3DKiwi]

Ditto what Rantin Al says. Go into point mode and with no points selected or all points selected run an "optimize" command. You then need to go into polygon mode and fix up all of the reversed normals. After doing this and with a phong tag it should be much improved.

3DKiwi

[Vilandra]

Thanks everyone for the help. If I can remember correctly, I modeled the hull from a primitive cylinder, then I deleted one half of it, and then dropped the extruded modeled half into a symetry object.

About the errors, im sure there are probably alot of them. This particular model was built when I first got C4D, and ive been improving it slowly within the past year.

I'll follow the instructions you guys have given to see how it works.

[sjmcc]

I learned this the hard way too. Whenever you make a primitive editable that has a seperate cap, like a cylinder or a ring, you should run the optimize function. There are always two points where the cap and the sidefaces of the object meet. This has caused me a few headaches in the past when I have forgotten about it.

[Vilandra]

I hate to ask this, but would anyone be willing to take the hull file I posted and try to fix most of the errors?

I went into polygon mode, point mode, and line mode, and ran the optimize feature and all of those lines are now gone, and the hull looks alot smoother, but now since the lines are gone, all of the errors are showing up and ive got squares and triangle shaped dark spots all over the place. I deleted some points and polygons, but that only created a large odd-shaped hole in the hull, and thats not what I wanted.

I really did not want to have to remodel this, as it took me about a week to do it, and I dont have the time to go back and start over again.

I appreciate the help concerning the lines, but would anyone be willing to help with the errors and these new dark spots? It doesnt have to be 100% perfect, but I would like to get rid of the apparent errors. I just have no experience when it comes to fixing errors.

If one side could be fixed, im sure I could mirror it to make the other side, and that should do it.

I appreciate any help or ideas.

[Rantin Al]

I had an attempt at optimizing it but the level it has to be taken to distorts the mesh all over the place. I'd say that about half the mesh still has co-planars and they are a sod of a thing to clear up. It is not just the cylinder itself but the fact that it has a thickness to it as well, and the normals are all over the place.

I'm sorry but I would say the only efficient way to do it is to remodel it.

All I can suggest is try to keep the poly count down and be careful when extruding. I think that is how your original problem developed, zero depth to the extrusion. Also, optimize often. Even if you don't think you need to. Check and fix the normals direction as you go as well.

Sorry to bring you bad news, Al.

[Vilandra]

If you had to remodel this yourself, would you start by using a primitive object, or some splines with a loft or sweep nurb?

The only reason why I really dont want to remodel this, is because at the rear where to 2 large holes are, there is an engine assembly that comes out as the side hatch-door opens to allow them to come out. (Using an expresso user data slider) That itself, was a pain in the butt to set up and get correct, and I really really really really, didnt want to do that all over again. It was just too complex and time consuming.


On a side note, you said that there were alot of co-planars. Excuse my ignorance, but what are co-planars and what are normals?

If I can slowly work on this to fix it, that would be easier on me than remodeling it. To set this thing up again for animation and movement, is something I dont even wont to think about.

Thanks for the honesty and help Rantin Al.

[Rantin Al]

(On your model, have a look at the front open edge, on the halfway step. Turn on X-Ray and select point mode. You can see a mess of overlaps. Try pulling apart a point and you will see how many polys are attached to it.)

Co-planar polygons are two or more polygons which are occupying the exact same 3D position. ie Lying one on top of each other.

If you try and select one polygon, both will be selected. Even with the 'Only Select Visible' option enabled you cannot select one without the other because neither is in front of the other. The only way to fix it is to delete and re-create a single polygon.
Usually you can see them in the editor view as having a 'smeared' appearance when you select (all) polygons.

The Normals are the little central spikes which stick out from the centre of each polygon.
They indicate the 'front face' of a polygon. The Normals usually all face outwards from an editable polygon object. When normals face in and out from an object, running the Align Normals command will point them all in the same direction. Sometimes they will end up all facing inwards. In this case, 'Reverse Normals' will reverse them and return them to the proper orientation.

As far as modeling your ship, I would start with a simple cylinder object with minimum sectors and use the knife and extrude tools to build the detail.

HTH, Cheers, Al.

[Vilandra]

Thanks everyone for the help. Ive been playing around with it for alittle while, and I was able to fix a few of the larger errors and I think I might be able to fix a few more. It might not be perfect, but the larger more apparent errors, will be fixed.

Thanks for the help!

[Vilandra]

Ive got a new problem now with this mesh.

First of all, all of the lines are gone. I was able to fix that easily. But now, when I apply the original material to the hull, there are random places that show up, that have no texure on them. The hull is one object with no selections, so any material applied to the hull should cover the entire object, however, there are small squares and odd shaped areas, where the texture wont show up, but heres the funny thing... when I apply a completely different texure, or shader, the "blank" areas are gone.

What would cause this? I checed the areas that show up grey (blank), and there are no errors or overlapping polys.

[GruvDOne]

Ive got a new problem now with this mesh.

First of all, all of the lines are gone. I was able to fix that easily. But now, when I apply the original material to the hull, there are random places that show up, that have no texure on them. The hull is one object with no selections, so any material applied to the hull should cover the entire object, however, there are small squares and odd shaped areas, where the texture wont show up, but heres the funny thing... when I apply a completely different texure, or shader, the "blank" areas are gone.

What would cause this? I checed the areas that show up grey (blank), and there are no errors or overlapping polys.


Well, it could be a normals problem....with the hull selected go to poly mode, select all polys, and hit U and the A or right click in the viewer and choose Align Normals.

You will know if your normals are out of alignment after you have selected them all. You should see only Red polygon faces.. if you see any blue ones, those are out of alignment and can definitely cause texture problems.

If that turns out not to be the culprit, and easy way of seeing if a particular poly has another overlapping it is to select that poly (live selection -> only select visible elements enabled) and delete it.. if you still see a poly there, then.. well you know. If you don't just perform an undo to get the deleted poly back.

[Rantin Al]

Or, Try deleting the Material and UV tags. Replace the material and then Generate UV co-ordinates from the Texture menu dropdown in the Object Manager.

Cheers, Al.

[Vilandra]

Ok, I tried GruvDOne's suggestion, and that didnt work. I selected all the polys, and then used the "align normals", because there were quite a few blue polys, and the rest were red. After aligning them, they were still blue and the blank areas were still there.

I also tried rantin al's idea, and that didnt work either.

Anyone more ideas what this could be? I'll post the new scene file is anyone want to take a look at it.

[GruvDOne]

Yeah, feel free to post the file... there is definitely something up.

[Vilandra]

Here is the file. There are still a few errors on the object, but they arent anything im concerned with right now. My main problem is the getting the texture to show up on the entire object.


Click here for hull file (http://www.archive.org/download/Hull_texture_problem/hullwip.zip)

[GruvDOne]

Well, I just opened the file, and there are definitely still some overlapping polygons causing you trouble... see the attached pic.

Gonna look a bit closer now...

[dfaris]

Here is the file. There are still a few errors on the object, but they arent anything im concerned with right now. My main problem is the getting the texture to show up on the entire object.


Click here for hull file (http://www.archive.org/download/Hull_texture_problem/hullwip.zip)


I looked at your file also and you have a bunch of coplaner polys and a lot of them dont connect to other parts of the mesh. Its gonna be a pain to fix all of these. I would start over using HN's it would make the mash a lot less confusing. You just need to add edge loops around the parts you want to be sharp.

If you drop your mesh into a HN's object you can see lots of parts that are not connected and holes in the mesh ect ect. I would use some cross sections of that mesh and make a new model. I know you dont want to hear that but it will give you a lot less problems in the long run and could be faster depending on how many ares you have to fix.

[Vilandra]

My goodness, its a never ending supply of polygons! I could have swore I cleaned things up. Looking back on modeling this, I have no idea how I screwed it up so badly.

I do however appreciate the time you are taking to help with this.

[dfaris]

My goodness, its a never ending supply of polygons! I could have swore I cleaned things up. Looking back on modeling this, I have no idea how I screwed it up so badly.

I do however appreciate the time you are taking to help with this.

As long as you learn something its all good.

I still think using HN's would be better and would make for a much much lower poly count.

[Vilandra]

I just noticed something.....

In the image you just posted of the overlapping polys, there are yellow lines and dots in the middle of each selected polygon. When I make selections, those yellow dots and lines dont show up.

Is there somewhere I can turn them back on?

[dfaris]

I just noticed something.....

In the image you just posted of the overlapping polys, there are yellow lines and dots in the middle of each selected polygon. When I make selections, those yellow dots and lines dont show up.

Is there somewhere I can turn them back on?

In your mode/view settings make sure normals is checked under display.

[JIII]

Those yellow lines are the normals that everyone has been telling you about.

-JIII

[Vilandra]

All this time, and I JUST NOW figure it out. Thanks for telling me.


About remodeling it, I dont have the time or the patience to sit and remodel it, just for the simple reason that there is alot more to this ship than just the hull I provided. I have a complete ship with engines, doors, lights, weapons, etc. The rear doors and engine are all set up with a Xpresso slider (which was a pain in the butt to set up)

Going back and remodeling this ship would mean having to set it all up again, and I really want to avoid that. But if I can take alittle time and fix the errors on the hull object, ill be happy with it.

[JIII]

I reccomend remodelling it. Remodelling things, especially when you are first learning, is a damn good workout for the brain, and your 3D skills. I used to remodel eveything 4-5x, I still do occasionally.

-J3

[GruvDOne]

I reccomend remodelling it. Remodelling things, especially when you are first learning, is a damn good workout for the brain, and your 3D skills. I used to remodel eveything 4-5x, I still do occasionally.

-J3


I agree with J3. I have been looking at your file even more, and yes, lot's of co-planar polys, and as stated before, many of them not connected to the mesh. I have attached 3 pics. One showing that front section of the hull after I repaired the polys, you can compare it to the first shot, a render of that section, so you can see that it did indeed solve the issue in that section with the textures, and another showing a close-up of the front corner where you can see the disconnected mesh, and a co-planar poly branching off it.

I think if you had a go at fixing this mesh, it would take longer than a re-model. And, you might be surprised at how much faster the process goes with more experience under your belt. Even going through the XPresso set-up again will help re-enforce and strengthen those skills (though you likely could apply the same XPressions to your new objects)

[Vilandra]

GruvDOne, The more I think about it, the more I just might go back and remodel it, and if I can remember correctly, the xpresso settings should be able to swap over to the new model.

In the past few minutes in between the posting, I was abot to go and delete some polys in the front sections as you did in the posted images, and I just created some new polys in the empty space, and the problem was solved.... just like you said.

Im going to try to go back and find the other coplanar polys and overlapping/disconnected polys and fix them, (which fixing the ones earlier was easy), and see how it turns out. If it looks like its going to be a long time consuming job, then ill just remodel the ship. Sometimes, I like to be able to fix my own errors instead of starting over, but like what was said earlier, its a good workout for the brain, and ive had my fair share of remodeling, retexturing, and some more remodeling.

Thanks for the help everyone. I have certainly learned something new here, and I hope I dont make this same mistake again.

[JIII]

Defintely man, the fact is that somethin that takes you 5 hours to model, can probably be done in 15 minutes once you are used to doing it, back when I made my first human head it took me an entire month, I swear, and it sucked. But after that I was able to make one in something like 30 minutes, not photo-real, but yeah.

Also, when I have a ****ed up mesh it's ALOT easier to rebuild it, ALOT. Fixing a really messed up mesh is like trying to remove bricks from an already standing building or arch, it's possible, but only worth your time for small repairs.

-JIII

[Erik Heyninck]

Ditto here. May I add that doing quick renders regularly can help a lot? They show all problems before it gets too complicated. What I also do from time to time is delete a larger poly to see what's hidden by it. Undo brings it back, so there's no work to be done.
Another helper can be the atom array. Set it to very thin lines, and you can see where your mesh is a mess.
Here I set to 0.5 for spheres and lines, and added a 100% white luminance material. This way you clearly see where those blue meanies are hiding.

[kiwi]

Try this also - Select all,unhide all...make sure you havent also got hidden polys...{if that has not been suggested}



When you extrude make sure "create caps" is not active unless you want it that way,thats how you got your extra edges I would say.



gl

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