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ThePriest
03-26-2006, 10:44 AM
The road to achieving architectural models in a timely fashion can be achieved easily with the robust modeling tools and stable environment of Cinema4D, yes!
I've even converted Max lovers into Cinema 4D enthusiasts with only simple demonstrations.

BUT several equations remain:
From my perspective, it is required that I create all final outputs in VRay and it's a major headache to constantly switch back and forth between Cin and Max.
Isn't it high time somebody bridged the connection between the two? Is it possible?

If a developer proposed to work on it, maybe there would be enough support from users to put down a deposit covering initial development costs. I for one would contribute to such a cause, I wasted enough money waiting for Maxhell Render to put out a worthy engine, why not take a risk with something far more reliable, yet just as strong?
I'm not an expert, so correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm looking forward to some feedback on this subject.

AdamT
03-26-2006, 02:38 PM
I'm not sure what the status is of VRay standalone, but if it's out and there's an SDK someone should be able to code a connection. I'm sure it would be a money making proposition for whoever took it on.

Ernest Burden
03-26-2006, 06:07 PM
At Siggraph last summer I was told conversationally that someone was...and then the someone was pointed to. Picture a guy silently hunched over a laptop on the edge of the Chaos booth. Nothing official, as far as I know. I, too, have been hoping for this. But so far, nothing.

Glyptic
03-26-2006, 06:42 PM
These guys are porting V-Ray to Rhino. Maybe they could be made aware of the interest of Cinema users.

http://www.asgvis.com/

vesalus
03-26-2006, 07:06 PM
we've got a bunch of thread here and there saying since almost 2 to 3 years that cinema user want a vray connection, i think chaos group knows, maybe there are stuffs on the way, who knows...

lllab
03-26-2006, 07:20 PM
Vray for C4d would be definitly a big thing i guess:-)

cheers
stefan

lllab
03-26-2006, 07:24 PM
"put down a deposit covering initial development costs"

...this would be nice for such a development, BUT also would be very close to the thing Nextlimit/maxwell did..very dangerous. i think nobody at this moment would dare to take money for an unfinished development.

cheers
stefan

AdamT
03-26-2006, 08:29 PM
"put down a deposit covering initial development costs"

...this would be nice for such a development, BUT also would be very close to the thing Nextlimit/maxwell did..very dangerous. i think nobody at this moment would dare to take money for an unfinished development.

cheers
stefan

Hyeah, count me out! :eek:

But if someone offered a preorder deal like Cebas had (EB discount--no charge until shipping) I'd probably go for it.

lllab
03-26-2006, 08:41 PM
yes the way cebas did it, is more transparent.
lets see what siggraph brings...

cheers
stefan

RorrKonn
03-26-2006, 09:37 PM
If Rhino n TrueSpace has VRay I'm sure C4D could to.

I don't no much about architectural stuff.
I've seen alot of architects want VRay.
What's VRay do for architectural renders that none of the other render engines can do ?

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

belushy
03-26-2006, 10:57 PM
Any body out there??

JIII
03-27-2006, 03:01 AM
Eh, I am sure a few programers here could handle it, but it's a damn big project, there would have to be significant payoff to do it. I mean sure, I bet that Per-Anders and company could write it, but it would take alot of time and money to code. So basically, one of the larger companies is going to have to handle this, and take the investment risk.

It's a good idea, but it's expensive, and not many individual code writers or small companies can afford to take that risk.

-JIII

michaeli
03-27-2006, 03:37 AM
http://www.chaosgroup.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8949&highlight=c4d

lllab
03-27-2006, 08:56 AM
@belushi:

"any body out there??"

;-)
you have to believe...

ciao
stefan

vesalus
03-27-2006, 09:24 AM
http://www.chaosgroup.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8949&highlight=c4d


sorry but cant access the forum, could you tell us what is the point please ?

Stain777
03-27-2006, 02:57 PM
sorry but cant access the forum, could you tell us what is the point please ?

There's nothing concrete in the thread about anyone developing a bridge. They discuss potential and difficulty, how to get the SDK and process.

"the vray-fileformat is exported from any 3d-application ( if there is an expoorter ) . the vray-format is a new fileformat which , similar to FBX*format or *.max(3d studio-format) , has all needed information inside:

camera-movement, objekt-geometry, UV-sets and texture linking . lights and their information (intensity, color+ special attributes for advanced lightning). skeleton animation , vertex animation, different possibilities for binding objects , "baked" information on dynamic objects. it will be ( i guess ) like a shading-language describing all kinds of happenings in a scene (like a artificial studio) and their materialinformations such as reflectivity of objects and so on.....

you can programm (develope) the plugin for cinema4d , then - of course - you can simply generate a picture by clicking on the render button.

potential coders can ask (i guess) to participate , if they are experienced plugin-coders for their favorite 3d-application ... make this world dream"

Srek
03-27-2006, 05:21 PM
What the posting does not say is that all procedural shaders can not be supported. You are limited to very basic material properties or someone has to reprogram the CINEMA shader system / noises etc. for the specific renderer (like cebas did to a good part for fR2).
Cheers
Björn

Stain777
03-27-2006, 05:46 PM
What the posting does not say is that all procedural shaders can not be supported. You are limited to very basic material properties or someone has to reprogram the CINEMA shader system / noises etc. for the specific renderer (like cebas did to a good part for fR2).
Cheers
Björn

Ouch! I think that Max uses "Vray materials" to define the shaders for the scene. It also has an override if there are any native materials used so that the default Vray shaders are used instead. It's kind of a hastle as you need to know going in that you want to use Vray for the rendering, as going back to standard shaders means reseting them all.

At least that's my limited experience, others may have more insight.

jackb602
03-27-2006, 06:03 PM
It's also worth noting that VRay seems to place a very low priority on developing for OS X, so roughly half of C4D users will be out of luck even if a bridge is developed. Although it's taking a long time, Fr2 for OS X is probably our best bet for a 3rd party renderer. Still, given their long delays, not to mention the atrocious behavior of Next Limit, I'm really hoping Maxon will surprise us yet again at Siggraph so we can keep doing great rendering work within Cinema.

Jack

belushy
03-27-2006, 06:39 PM
Siggraph was allways a place for surpirses so mabe there is somebody out there whois just watching us fellas not believing

cheers
belushy

sketchbook
03-27-2006, 07:32 PM
in my mind the best thing maxon can do to gain a larger following and appease everyone is to update their renderer so that c4d will be capable of competing with vray. i have not followed the AR vs the rest thread much as it's ginormous, but i still think vray is tops without much question.

ThePriest
03-27-2006, 08:24 PM
So there is hope somewhere down the line, by the looks of things not anytime soon.

The process I use is not that difficult, adding additional geometry is a breeze, texturing is easy enough, lighting in Max I knew way before c4d. It's just that extra mile you have to go with CG to get the job done.

A new render engine yada yada, I don't think Cinema needs a new render engine, just updates that make it more compatible with today's needs. The only quintessential feature i'd like to see in a future AR is a light cache mode similar to VRay's. The light cache quickly gives you a noisy but accurate glimpse of what's to come when the render is complete. In less than 30 seconds I know if a light will blow out my scene or if additional lights are needed. As the pro's know, that's not it's actual purpose, but it undoubtedly serves that need.

AdamT
03-27-2006, 08:33 PM
So there is hope somewhere down the line, by the looks of things not anytime soon.

The process I use is not that difficult, adding additional geometry is a breeze, texturing is easy enough, lighting in Max I knew way before c4d. It's just that extra mile you have to go with CG to get the job done.

A new render engine yada yada, I don't think Cinema needs a new render engine, just updates that make it more compatible with today's needs. The only quintessential feature i'd like to see in a future AR is a light cache mode similar to VRay's. The light cache quickly gives you a noisy but accurate glimpse of what's to come when the render is complete. In less than 30 seconds I know if a light will blow out my scene or if additional lights are needed. As the pro's know, that's not it's actual purpose, but it undoubtedly serves that need.
Do you have Sniper Pro? Seems like it would serve that purpose well enough.

ThePriest
03-27-2006, 08:47 PM
Do you have Sniper Pro? Seems like it would serve that purpose well enough.

I don't, but I'm familiar with it.

The light cache can achieve this in 32 seconds

Scene is from evermotion collection
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3586/lightcache11ml.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

You can tweak your lights til your heart's content when you get this quality of preview in such a short time. It would be a huge advantage when rendering in Cinema 4D.

*edit. removed large image

AdamT
03-27-2006, 09:04 PM
Looks kind of like Maxwell's preview render.

Sniper Pro in 27 seconds:

AdamT
03-27-2006, 09:14 PM
GI + 4 area lights with area shadows--70 seconds:

ThePriest
03-27-2006, 10:17 PM
GI + 4 area lights with area shadows--70 seconds:

Nice quick result for 4 area lights, could you do the same at 6"x4" @ 300dpi with glossy reflections in still under a minute?

Of course you have a great option there, but I often need to scrutinize details at a much bigger scale.

AdamT
03-27-2006, 11:12 PM
You can make the window as big as you want, but of course that has an impact on speed. You can also control LOD, whether you want to use AA, and pixelization, so it's really up to you how much detail you want need. The attached scene has one area light and glossy reflections on the floor. The greeble ring also has a reflective material with 5% dispersion. The attached pics took 10, 40, and 157 to render, respectively. You can also see material glow on the middle thingy--so post effects are supported too. And did I mention you also get a set of steak knives? But wait, there's more...!

Ernest Burden
03-28-2006, 12:49 AM
someone has to reprogram the CINEMA shader system / noises etc. for the specific renderer (like cebas did to a good part for fR2).

Not well enough, yet, I'm afraid. Even with the SP1 version of FR2 the noise patterns do not animate and they render at different scale than in AR. When applied at less than 100% strength (as I use them in diffusion) they do not show up (the workaround is to pull down the black to a gray). So Cebas has done a fine job, but it isn't done yet.

And then there's the missing Mac version...

michaeli
03-28-2006, 01:40 AM
Do you have Sniper Pro? Seems like it would serve that purpose well enough.

The light cache isn't the render preview system such as sniperpro or Fprime, it is something which in FR2 called light map. It is a method to calculate GI, if you turn on show calculate process, you will get a picture like ThePriest showed, which mean, that picture shows how a light map looks like but not the final render result .

You can find more in Vray 1.5 beta help file here:
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/VRayHelp150beta/render_params_lightmap.htm
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/VRayHelp150beta/examples_lightcache.htm

ThePriest
03-28-2006, 06:51 AM
The light cache isn't the render preview system such as sniperpro or Fprime, it is something which in FR2 called light map. It is a method to calculate GI, if you turn on show calculate process, you will get a picture like ThePriest showed, which mean, that picture shows how a light map looks like but not the final render result .

You can find more in Vray 1.5 beta help file here:
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/VRayHelp150beta/render_params_lightmap.htm
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/VRayHelp150beta/examples_lightcache.htm

True. But it can be close enough to spare you rendering 10 x 20min test scenes.
Even with the Light Cache I've seen over bright and underlit spots in my final renders, but it does help.

My company forbids posting any actual client work, I wish I could show you what I mean.

belushy
03-28-2006, 08:12 AM
Sniper is good but not for AR GI it seemed that the output differs so much from the final render that I decided not to use it in this case for GI scenes allthough it would be quite usefull

lllab
03-28-2006, 09:01 AM
yes sniper looks very often very good, - but when rendered in AR it is full of artefacrs and terribly slow, and as belushi said it just looks different from the light. maybe it would be interesting to know exactly what sniper does internally- cause actually it IS using AR.

- FR would be a very nice option if it really would work, but it doesnt, not yet.

- vray is nice, fast, perfect, but not available for c4d, hmmm-.....yet?

- maxon probably is doing a whole new rendercore for GI, but not yet available (i guess siggraph).

- maxwell isnt finished, will be nice probably in future.

....so a lot of not yet available options for us. lets see what future will bring.

cheers
stefan

ThePriest
03-28-2006, 09:28 AM
yes sniper looks very often very good, - but when rendered in AR it is full of artefacrs and terribly slow, and as belushi said it just looks different from the light. maybe it would be interesting to know exactly what sniper does internally- cause actually it IS using AR.

- FR would be a very nice option if it really would work, but it doesnt, not yet.

- vray is nice, fast, perfect, but not available for c4d, hmmm-.....yet?

- maxon probably is doing a whole new rendercore for GI, but not yet available (i guess siggraph).

- maxwell isnt finished, will be nice probably in future.

....so a lot of not yet available options for us. lets see what future will bring.

cheers
stefan

FR is a beautiful waste of time.
It integrates perfectly into cinema, with only minor glitches. But falls short on accurate and believable results.

Come final render in VRay, I personally always opt for QMC. So it's not as fast as I would like, but you can guarantee a result.

And yes, let's hope maxon realizes the importance of rendering, versus all the other tools they're so capable of perfecting and not to succumb to the shortcomings of lightwave and it's age old render engine.

RorrKonn
03-28-2006, 11:39 AM
I remember when caustics was a big deal,Now everybody has it.
AR2.5 Don't have a Viper ?

Anyways u can use Vray with Max,TrueSpace.
I would rather use the stock renderless TS Rendered Engine thou.

SplutterFish use to be a popular Max 3rd party render engine
How come no we want SplutterFish for C4D threads ?

You would think that Vray n SplutterFish would make there Render Engines compatible with all the main app's since there a 3rd party plug.Like C4D did with BodyPaint.
Who noes maybe Max don't want VRay to be a C4D Plug.
I no u going to say but it's a TrueSpace plug.
But I've always suspected Max own's TrueSpace anyways.
Sorta like a Max Lite.

Anyways I'm saving my pennies for CA,Hair,AR2.5.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Ernest Burden
03-28-2006, 12:41 PM
- vray is ... perfect, but not available for c4d...

Then it isn't perfect yet. Its getting there...



Many of us thought that C4Dv9.5 was going to have AR3 and it didn't. It had some improvements, yes, but not what we all were collectively hoping for. So we go back to hoping. fr2 is a very capable engine, and if the DR stability can be addressed it will become a lot more useful. I have a big interior animation I'm doing over the next month and I'm very worried about setting it up for fr2. I think I would be safer going with AR and baking the GI to avoid flicker and long rendertimes. fr2 has no flickering in the architectural animation test I did (posted a while ago). But I can't keep the DR stations up and running. Its like spinning plates.

Stain777
03-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Back to the original question, has anyone done some tests in bringing model from C4D to Max? I'd love to see the results of exporting as .3ds or .fbx in different flavors to see how much comes across and how much work on the other end to make it work. I happen to be heading into this very situation and would like to know how much work I can transport over.

I'm not a programmer, but I'm guessing that the rendering engine is the crown jewel of any 3d package. The fact that you get such different results from each must mean that there's a pile of complexities and trade-offs that define the result. I mean, to say, "Maxon should make their rendering engine like Vray" is akin to guessing at the components of a secret recipe by looking at a picture. Of course this is speculation on my part, but if it were easy others would be copying Vray's recipe wouldn't they?

As the Mac's move to an Intel chip, does it make it easier to port software over from the Win side? The future might be pretty bright if this were the case. The old days of Mac's as a distant last would give way to an easy port over for additional revenue. The best of both worlds.

AdamT
03-28-2006, 03:15 PM
I've used fbx to transfer Cinema files over to Max. It worked pretty well to the best of my recollection.

Regarding AR, I do want to see it improved but I think the future is in third party render engines. There's just no way a small company like Maxon can devote the same time and energy into rendering technology that single-purpose companies like Chaos/Splutterfish/Cebas can.

It's enough that Maxon has to compete with much larger companies in every other area--and those larger companies rely almost entirely on third parties for their render tech.

michaeli
03-28-2006, 03:32 PM
I think the future is in third party render engines. There's just no way a small company like Maxon can devote the same time and energy into rendering technology that single-purpose companies like Chaos/Splutterfish/Cebas can.



Agreed, then a perfect connection is very crucial.

Stain777
03-28-2006, 04:43 PM
I've used fbx to transfer Cinema files over to Max. It worked pretty well to the best of my recollection.

Regarding AR, I do want to see it improved but I think the future is in third party render engines. There's just no way a small company like Maxon can devote the same time and energy into rendering technology that single-purpose companies like Chaos/Splutterfish/Cebas can.

It's enough that Maxon has to compete with much larger companies in every other area--and those larger companies rely almost entirely on third parties for their render tech.

Thanks Adam. When I've used the .fbx format I've gotten mixed results; dropped textures, missing lights...I was half-hoping that someone had delved more deeply into the settings to get some better results.

My understanding is that Autodesk is working on a more universal format that, I hope, Maxon can implement and will be more robust. It's always been the bane of 3d that when you hand off a model to another user, they have to rebuild and texture, reduce poly's, clean up geometry, blah, blah. Why can't we all just get along? ;)

Ernest Burden
03-28-2006, 07:09 PM
I think the future is in third party render engines. There's just no way a small company like Maxon can devote the same time and energy into rendering technology that single-purpose companies like Chaos/Splutterfish/Cebas can.

Hummm. BodyPaint is both a C4D module and a third-party product for other main apps. While I have no reason to believe this is their thinking, what if Maxon were to develop AR3 to be an open module that could be used for other source scene files? Probably not worth the extra developement cost for the extra sales, but an interesting idea.

Srek
03-28-2006, 07:25 PM
Since BodyPaint 3D and CINEMA 4D share an identical core architecture i don't think you can compare this. To connect to other apps like max, LW etc. BodyPaint uses the mechanisms that are included in the core. I can't see a way how making AR available without other CINEMA functionality (like BP stand alone) would help users. You would still have to use the already existing im- export options to transfer the scene data.

Cheers
Björn

AdamT
03-28-2006, 07:51 PM
I don't imagine it would be hugely difficult for a good programmer to code a bridge. NL managed to cobble something together and the guy who programmed the plugin had no previous experience with Cinema's SDK.

lllab
03-28-2006, 07:54 PM
to connect a renderengine to a software is quite some hard work. i dont see this happen AR3 for max, maya etc...

better maxon incorporates all good I/O file formats, so for those whoo want to render with AR can do this through c4d.

it makes sense though for dedicated renderengines like vray or final render,as they exist only this way.

cheers
stefan

flingster
03-28-2006, 09:33 PM
maxons new AR would need to surpass FR in order to 1 sell and 2 impress.
i hope they take up the challenge to be honest...kinda praying...but they really need the will and drive to take it on as its ball buster imo. renderers have moved quite a bit recently and although maxon has a good feature list and some superb implementations things can always be improved...i just hope they don't leave it as long as dynamics. somethings you'll just never get with external render engines...integration been one good example...a good version if Fr and bad version is likely to be anything else i would think

ThePriest
03-28-2006, 11:39 PM
Could Maxon not hire a development team to focus only a render engine?
Or in an ideal world, just buy chaos-group. :buttrock:

Thankfully siggraph is early this year, if we keep our collective fingers crossed, perhaps we'll get what we want. But it's been said before, I do wish Maxon would endulge us once in a while, even just a small piece of information would be a benefit.

Ernest Burden
03-29-2006, 12:22 AM
I can't see a way how making AR available without other CINEMA functionality (like BP stand alone) would help users.

Just trying to get you some more users. A kick-ass AR3 only in Cinema is fine with me. But if it could be 'torn off' then others could use it, too.

sketchbook
03-29-2006, 12:23 AM
maxons new AR would need to surpass FR in order to 1 sell and 2 impress.
i hope they take up the challenge to be honest...kinda praying...but they really need the will and drive to take it on as its ball buster imo. renderers have moved quite a bit recently and although maxon has a good feature list and some superb implementations things can always be improved...i just hope they don't leave it as long as dynamics. somethings you'll just never get with external render engines...integration been one good example...a good version if Fr and bad version is likely to be anything else i would think

i don't know. i am happy on my mac, and would rather buy AR3, if it and FR2 were my options. depends on how well AR3 does i guess. it's built in, seamless, easy, etc. if they are pretty comparable, i think that most would not by FR.

still hoping maxon can pull it off.

thev
03-29-2006, 11:46 AM
Of course this is speculation on my part, but if it were easy others would be copying Vray's recipe wouldn't they?It may not be easy, but they do :-) Look closer at fR and you'll find many similarities with V-Ray, even more in stage-2 than in stage-1; last time I checked, kray had also adopted some of V-Ray's algorithms (the lightmap/lightcache specifically).

As the Mac's move to an Intel chip, does it make it easier to port software over from the Win side? The future might be pretty bright if this were the case. The old days of Mac's as a distant last would give way to an easy port over for additional revenue. The best of both worlds.This is part of the reason why porting for Mac is somewhat slow... there is little point of investing in hardware and software porting efforts, when you know that the platform will change and the current hardware will become obsolete very soon.

ooo
03-29-2006, 11:58 AM
This is part of the reason why porting for Mac is somewhat slow... there is little point of investing in hardware and software porting efforts, when you know that the platform will change and the current hardware will become obsolete very soon.

I don't know what you mean. Applications that are written or rewritten as Universal Binaries are for PPC and the new Intel-Macs, so there is nothing obsolete when you port apps to the Mac now. As long as you work with X-code and provide an universal binary, future and past (PPC)macs are both covered. And afaik X-code runs on a G5 so you can already compile for Intel.

odo

thev
03-29-2006, 12:06 PM
I don't know what you mean. Applications that are written or rewritten as Universal Binaries are for PPC and the new Intel-Macs, so there is nothing obsolete when you port apps to the Mac now. As long as you work with X-code and provide an universal binary, future and past (PPC)macs are both covered. And afaik X-code runs on a G5 so you can already compile for Intel.Possibly; I'm not familiar with details; I know this was one of the reasons for people that I know to be hesitant to start Mac ports.

michaeli
03-29-2006, 12:17 PM
It may not be easy, but they do :-) Look closer at fR and you'll find many similarities with V-Ray, even more in stage-2 than in stage-1; last time I checked, kray had also adopted some of V-Ray's algorithms (the lightmap/lightcache specifically).

This is part of the reason why porting for Mac is somewhat slow... there is little point of investing in hardware and software porting efforts, when you know that the platform will change and the current hardware will become obsolete very soon.


Wow, nice to see great Vray's father, Chaos' vlado here. And you have seen how desperate C4D users need Vray ! !

hundredthirtyseven
03-29-2006, 12:45 PM
Sorry guys, but I don't see the point in waiting for AR3. Just take a look at Vray, or FinalRender 2. They have bunch of options, you can tweak almost anything. It would take years of development to have these kind of options in AR. Decent DOF, good SSS, Mitchell or Lanczos type AA, tweakable GI interpolation settings, working GI animation solution, shader tree and so on... For what? We can already have it in fR2. Let Maxon focus on Character Animation.

lllab
03-29-2006, 05:24 PM
is thev Vlado?


well anyway, Vray is for me the ultimate renderengine out there at the moment, specially for architecture. maxon will gain users when vray is available for c4d, vray will gain new users too, so its a win-win situation
...
so i guess sooner or later it will happen, i personally am guessing somebody is already working on it...;-)

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
03-29-2006, 09:13 PM
Sorry guys, but I don't see the point in waiting for AR3... For what?

Stability, for one thing. Predictable noise and procedurals for another. And maybe even a working Mac version.

flingster
03-29-2006, 09:15 PM
Let Maxon focus on Character Animation.

did it ever cross your mind not everyone is interested in CA work who use c4d? not something that would inspire me to upgrade to R10..and since don't feel value for 9.5... i'd have to wait until R11 if ever...Mmmm not sure how happy i'd feel about that in 18months+ time. i supposed the CA guys are screaming we've been waiting ages...but 8 saw mocca didn't it...its probably time for dynamics if we think about it...whatever maxon will invest where they see profit...if they see it more in AR than in CA then thats where development time will go.

lllab
03-30-2006, 09:19 AM
" Let Maxon focus on Character Animation."

please not, there are others that do this better....and we had enough CA-Mocca updates. yes please modern dynamics like cloth:-)
cheers
stefan

jondoe0ne
03-30-2006, 09:34 AM
let me get this thing right.... c4d has CD ik tools... right ? which is good for CA... and CA people can use it and get the job done, both in short time and with ease of use... right? (correct me if i'm wrong)
and c4d has AR, FR2, maxwell and also a free renderer Indigo... right? which are not so good for rendering, at least in production pipeline, due to various problems which i'm not going to tell for a thousand time here... right?(also correct me if i'm wrong)
then what should be developed more? better CA or a better rendering engine? also if the CA people will have a better CA working solution, but no way to render for production pipeline what they animate what's the use of the better CA solution????

RorrKonn
03-30-2006, 09:34 AM
never have enough updates man :)

With all the 3rd party plugs C4D could just sell Basic C4D n throw all the mods away n let V,MB,Z,DT etc etc.cover the rest.not that I want them to.

The 3D Universe is so very young it's just Chaos.
Just think in another 200 years our descendents will be able to set down n make a hour 2 long movie in 2 hours, won't that be kool.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

RorrKonn
03-30-2006, 09:42 AM
let me get this thing right.... c4d has CD ik tools... right ? which is good for CA... and CA people can use it and get the job done, both in short time and with ease of use... right? (correct me if i'm wrong)

" short amount of time " & " ease " Can't be use when talking about Character Animation.
n u half to have morphs for Charter Animation.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Erith
03-30-2006, 10:10 AM
Actually I think taht cinema just needs a better wiewport speed. Think just about the baker in C4d... Render can be real fast and clean

ThirdEye
03-30-2006, 03:28 PM
we had enough CA-Mocca updates.

LOL! CA is by a huge margin the worst area of the app, there's absolutely no doubt about it. If you think rendering is bad try rigging a character.

lllab
03-30-2006, 04:29 PM
well, if AR isnt updated massivly in v10 then it is more or less dead- i cant imagine that....(i mean GI) the rest is very good)

but anyway, as adam said, the future will be at 3rd party renderegines,
cinmea has started to be open for them, and thats a good thing.

cheers
stefan

Stain777
03-30-2006, 06:00 PM
LOL! CA is by a huge margin the worst area of the app, there's absolutely no doubt about it. If you think rendering is bad try rigging a character.

That may be the case, but CA is still a subset of the users (I'd be curious about the %). Every one of us needs a good, fast rendering engine for final output cuz we like pretty pichures.

If it comes down to a choice between CA and rendering which do you think carries more weight? ;)

AkaKico
03-30-2006, 06:07 PM
I was of the opinion that 9.5 mainly focused on rendering if anything. I for one an in the crowd rooting for more CA stuff. I've never had a renderer besides AR, so I don't know any better though. I just know a lot of people ( on this forum if nowhere else ) who would be pretty vocal if CA and the Timeline weren't the focus of R10. There is some nice Vray stuff out there, I would like to see a bridge. But I'm not going to hold my breath. :)

RorrKonn
03-30-2006, 08:11 PM
Instead of THIS vs THAT app.
We now have CA vs AR.

ThePriest
03-30-2006, 08:37 PM
Actually I think taht cinema just needs a better wiewport speed. Think just about the baker in C4d... Render can be real fast and clean

You should try 3D Studio Max, Anything over a million poly's and it really feels like your machine is crunching numbers. I use Cinema to do the bulk of my work, mostly because the viewport can handle high poly counts and is pretty fast. Not quite as fast as Maya, but fast enough.

Per-Anders
03-30-2006, 09:48 PM
Never noticed Maya's viewports as being fast (quite the opposite in fact). The only all in one app that's faster than C4D in my experience is XSI. Make sure you're using similar viewport settings to compare, anything in wireframe mode is going to be faster than another app in full multilayered textured lit and shaded.

ThePriest
03-30-2006, 10:21 PM
I'd seen a demostration of a scene made for a commercial with all the bells and whistles and it seemed pretty quick to me at the time.

sketchbook
03-30-2006, 10:49 PM
what bothers me is c4d is sold in "modules", but the singles price of them all is too high, so you are left buying a bundle. the only reason why they do this in my mind is because some of these things hardly anyone will buy on their own so they make the rest of us pay for them. i do architectural renderings, what do i need with mocca, dynamics, CA, pyrocluster, thinking particles? these are not all bundles, but they get a lot of development.

its useless to argue over what's the most important. all depends on what you need.

if maxon would split things up the way they should and sell them for a reasonable price they would see what % of people really care about what tools. that way they could focus on what people really need.

and i would assume AR would be one of the biggies.

RorrKonn
03-31-2006, 06:32 AM
If it wasn't sold as mods I couldn't use C4D.
I don't have the $$$ for big app's.
saving $ 25 a week would take to long to get $3000 much less $7000.
but I can do one mod at a time thou.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

jondoe0ne
03-31-2006, 08:11 AM
i'm also having this dillema about the modules.... but i think that for arch viz you could use TP and maybe some bits of Pyro like smoke of a tigarette in an ashtray or maybe some distant haze and fog, dunno... but the fact is that tehere isn't a dedicated bundle for arch viz, as the engineering bundle doesn't offer AR (how is this possible!?) not even in the plus bundle.

lllab
03-31-2006, 09:04 AM
"Instead of THIS vs THAT app.
We now have CA vs AR."

...yes the original question was if there will be a bridge to vray.
and this is not against AR or anything else i might add, but a nice option, or addition.

especially us archviz guys would love to have vray for c4d-vray is without any question the most usefull renderengine for architectural space- its only problem is that it runs on max and some people, like myself like cinema4d much more than max.

cheers
stefan

STRAT
03-31-2006, 10:08 AM
For what? We can already have it in fR2. Let Maxon focus on Character Animation.

thats a very closed selfish attitute m8.

what about a huge population of C4D users who dont come remotely close to CA?

i for one want the core AR to be developed equally if not more than C4D's other modules.
i dont want to pay for extra dedicated rendering engines. i want my beloved C4D to cater for me.

maxon must focus all round on their product to keep all their client base happy.

RorrKonn
03-31-2006, 11:00 AM
oh I just thought it was funny that instead of going this vs. that app where going this vs. this the same app.
it just struck me as bloody hilarious.

but I want C4D to get VRay n everything else so every body will be 100% happy.
but I no it's never going to happen
even 200 years from now when u can make a 2 hour video in 2 hours
there still be going this vs. that app n I want what that app has.

n I hope there is such a thing as reincarnation cause I really want to play with those app's to.

but here in this life time I currently just have basic & BP n Cactus Dans plugs so I can render n do character animation all day long.
n Jurassic park ant go nothing on me.
n I'm worken on my universal characters so I can get them ready for the 3D public n hopefully make enough to get a mod or to.
characters just look better with hair n close ;)

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

lllab
03-31-2006, 12:40 PM
" but I want C4D to get VRay...
...but I no it's never going to happen"

why not, what makes you so sure?

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
03-31-2006, 12:45 PM
" but I want C4D to get VRay...
...but I no it's never going to happen"

why not, what makes you so sure?

C4D is a great program, but anyone with a sense that the Cg industry is a utopia for creative people has had to develope some pessimism. Good things come to those who wait...but I'm not getting any younger. I may be ready to retire by the time we get vRay for Cinema and a working Maxwell. But now is when I'm working.

ThirdEye
03-31-2006, 02:17 PM
I don't see what's wrong with fR. I'm pretty satisfied with AR, if i had the need for a more powerful renderer i'd buy fR, it seems a good product that can compete with Vray to me... On the other hand if i needed a new timeline, a new fcurves editor, new CA tools, new weighting tools and a new spreadsheet i couldn't buy them from a third party.

lllab
03-31-2006, 02:58 PM
FR is nice in theory, but t crashes and crashes and crashes, and if not it produces inconsistent buckets, or some other mistakes.

i really do hope edwin gives us a service pack that will have less bugs and will be stable so that it can be used also in tight productions.

i had really much hope in FR, at the moment i am not 100% happy with it. sad but true actually i wanted to buy more licenses, but in its current state i better wait what will come and if it gets out of the "version1-bugs".

FR has definitly the potential to be a good product, but needs more refinement.

cheers
stefan

flingster
03-31-2006, 03:48 PM
I was of the opinion that 9.5 mainly focused on rendering if anything. I for one an in the crowd rooting for more CA stuff. I've never had a renderer besides AR, so I don't know any better though. I just know a lot of people ( on this forum if nowhere else ) who would be pretty vocal if CA and the Timeline weren't the focus of R10. There is some nice Vray stuff out there, I would like to see a bridge. But I'm not going to hold my breath. :)

to be honest i don't think anyone doubts the timeline and ca improvements are needed big time and the timeline people have been banging on about for ages and ages and kinda surprised its not been addressed really. i don't think its a CA versus AR thing really i'd be less convinced that people have bought c4d for the ca attributes than the ar attributes though, of course maxon are free to chase that market if they see a return at the end of the day...it probably has some legs no pun intended. still would like to see maxon concentrate on ground up look at ar rather that tweaks release by release which has been happening of late because of peoples AR versus an-other-renderer type observations. this have been addressed but not tackled in my mind...maybe its a perception thing but still feels that ar has a way to go and can be up there given an intensive maxon approach they are so good at...if not i think its likely to be dead in the water by R10.5-11.

Ernest Burden
03-31-2006, 04:49 PM
Something that occurs to me about C4Ds CA abilities--most of that work is done in Maya. Since Autodesk bought Alias, there may be some artists who would be open to jump ship since ADSK is not such a great company (my opinion, based on their historical practices) and Max wouln't help them with that. So that points to XSI and C4D.

For me, better AR is the top proirity but better CA could help pick up former Maya people.

And fr2--breaking my heart. I want to love it, I do. But Cebas forgot to add stability and Mac. Get it together, guys. What do you do for a living? Remember?

RorrKonn
03-31-2006, 09:48 PM
" but I want C4D to get VRay...
...but I no it's never going to happen"

why not, what makes you so sure?

cheers
stefan

I said
"but I want C4D to get VRay n everything else so every body will be 100% happy.
but I no it's never going to happen."

I no every one using C4D is not going to be 100% happy.cause we don't have Advanced,Unlimited etc etc n all the plugs for all the apps build in to C4D.

Don't no if C4D is going to get Vray or not.
but I hope thay do cause alot of folks want it.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

ThePriest
03-31-2006, 11:40 PM
off topic ronnkorr

but why do you say "n" instead of 'and' and "no" instead of 'know'

are you trying to start a trend?

Jorge Arango
04-01-2006, 12:27 AM
off topic ronnkorr

but why do you say "n" instead of 'and' and "no" instead of 'know'

are you trying to start a trend?

Yes, I have to make an effort to read your posts. If it's a little long, I just don't read it. Please take this as a friendly comment.


Jorge Arango

RorrKonn
04-01-2006, 02:39 AM
This is the 100th post like this I've answered.

It's spelled RorrKonn
I always make a effort to spell peoples names correctly

Got my first pent 2 PC in 1998 with TrueSpace 4 n Corel 8.
TrueSpace mailing list patiently educated me how to PC n 3D.
I was not educated enough to read manuals at the time.
I know my grammar suxs but I right all post in outlook n spell check first so all the words our spelled correctly may not be the correct word thou.

"no" "know" I don't always catch the right spelling.
but I did spell no right :)

n,and,& same deference.
Don't care about trends.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Continuumx
04-01-2006, 09:36 PM
i'm also having this dillema about the modules.... but i think that for arch viz you could use TP and maybe some bits of Pyro like smoke of a tigarette in an ashtray or maybe some distant haze and fog, dunno... but the fact is that tehere isn't a dedicated bundle for arch viz, as the engineering bundle doesn't offer AR (how is this possible!?) not even in the plus bundle.

Not really, Storm Tracer is much easier and faster to fullfill some smoke or haze for Arch Viz. I would rather Maxon focus on a well blended package and not individual allstar modules because with the trend going towards specialized programs for specific tasks (ala pipeline friendly) (stand alone render engines, stand alone CA, and so on). The more time spent to develop allstar modules leaves the overall develop of the software into a less than well blended and sophistocated(sp?) application. This example can clearly be seen in the development of MODO. A lot of time is being spent to make a synergistic(sp?) software that is well blended as is the case for MODO 201.

Cinema 4D needs another UI upate as it is now starting to look a lot more technical (3DMAX) and less and less artistic (Zbrush, MODO, Hexagon 2 (Yes, Hexagon 2 has added a uv unwrapper capability (cut along seams [edges]) that makes this something to look at as it starts to mature in a version 3 or 4 release.)

ThePriest
04-01-2006, 11:00 PM
This is the 100th post like this I've answered.

It's spelled RorrKonn
I always make a effort to spell peoples names correctly

Got my first pent 2 PC in 1998 with TrueSpace 4 n Corel 8.
TrueSpace mailing list patiently educated me how to PC n 3D.
I was not educated enough to read manuals at the time.
I know my grammar suxs but I right all post in outlook n spell check first so all the words our spelled correctly may not be the correct word thou.

"no" "know" I don't always catch the right spelling.
but I did spell no right :)

n,and,& same deference.
Don't care about trends.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com/)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

I apologize, it was a poor judgement.

RorrKonn
04-02-2006, 09:00 AM
I apologize, it was a poor judgement.

No problem,all is forgotten.besides I'm on CGTalk parole.so I stay in trouble.
We can't tell one another personalities on this threads.
but I never take anything seriously ever.n to my surprise it drives ya girl friends insane.
one would think thay would like that being thay always say thay want some one to make them laugh.

I do advise not to get on CGTalk parole.
U make a post n it don't get posted till it's been approved.
So if your in a hurry it's not going to happen.
n I have yet to found out how long it last.
Anybody no how long parole last ?

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

jondoe0ne
04-02-2006, 09:16 AM
Not really, Storm Tracer is much easier and faster to fullfill some smoke or haze for Arch Viz.

really??? i had no idea about this... could you point me to a tutorial or something like this where i could see how this works? also does ST work with external renderers (maxwell, FR st2 or maybe the future Vray)? and a final question ... does ST interfere with alpha channels the way fog or visible light do, creating visible planes whaere they should be transparent?

lllab
04-02-2006, 01:38 PM
no st is a plugin and does not work with other renderengines.

cheers
stefan

Continuumx
04-02-2006, 05:36 PM
really??? i had no idea about this... could you point me to a tutorial or something like this where i could see how this works? also does ST work with external renderers (maxwell, FR st2 or maybe the future Vray)? and a final question ... does ST interfere with alpha channels the way fog or visible light do, creating visible planes whaere they should be transparent?

You can do a search of storm tracer from this forum as it is a plugin developed by Per-Anders Edwards and Paul Everett, two very talented developers from Cinema 4D platform.

Storm Tracer ref: http://st45.startlogic.com/~perander/plugins/stormtracer/gallery.html (http://st45.startlogic.com/%7Eperander/plugins/stormtracer/gallery.html)

The Third Party Products (Storm Tracer is one of their products) ref:
http://forum.thirdpartyplugins.com/

jondoe0ne
04-02-2006, 09:21 PM
hey guys, really now, i know what ST is... i just didn't know more deatialed things about it. and about tutorials to make haze with ST belive me i have searched the internet a lot but to no avail... and you still haven't answered my last question.
still i don't want to hijack this Vray thread, so to get back on track i think that vlado or thev should tell us if we should start hoping or start begging, and if vray will be ever
brought to mac, because if not (due to various reasons), then c4d will never have Vray for sure.

lllab
04-02-2006, 11:18 PM
a vray for c4d win would make sense for me.
as vray is mostly for arch-viz etc. windows should be ok, most do have pcs or a mixed enviroment. even on macs you can run winxp at full speed already, and there soon will be a compatibility layer for osx so it runs most win apps.

by the way, chaosgroup will never bring vray to cinema themselves, this is to be dome by someone else.
cheers
stefan

sunmade
04-03-2006, 12:50 AM
I would buy several licenses of Vray for Cinema 4D right now (credit card is ready and burnig a hole in my pocket).

Since some think that Vray will never be developped by chaosgroup themselves (why actually?), who can do such a thing? And how much would it cost?

I mean, if all the cinema 4D users that need Vray would shell out let's say 800$, it would make quite a bit... surely enough to start development. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

After seing what has been done to motivate people into getting WinXP to run on Intel Macs (I'm talking about the competition where a prize was proposed to the first person who succeeds in that task)...well, it worked! Maybe it will work again with another programm (wink wink, starts with V...)

So I hope you see what I mean, and I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts about that.

Or:
If I myself want to build a house, I contact an architect and building company and THEY build my needed project. And I pay a price.

Why not use that logic with our much desired Vray: Ask some programmers to build a bridge or whatever it takes for us to use Vray.

Or, well, as I said, use the "WinXP on Mac Competition" way...

It's late, I'm tired... and I want Vray

Ernest Burden
04-03-2006, 03:42 AM
by the way, chaosgroup will never bring vray to cinema themselves, this is to be dome by someone else.

Where is that taken from? Because its a pretty insulting attitude, if its Chaos'. Whe're not good enough for their attention? Perhaps it was meant as 'we don't have the technical know-how, so better get an expert'?

Other people's decisions--who get's them?

Didgeroo
04-03-2006, 04:47 AM
I guess Splutterfish, mental images and Pixar have 'insulting' attitudes as well then, seeing as none of them are planning a bridge to C4D anytime soon.

RorrKonn
04-03-2006, 06:05 AM
This thread reminds me of the TS4 days when people was wanting better IK's for TS.
I went n got LW.I'm not waiting on no one when it's available today.

If u want Vray now get it n a app that runs it today that way u have Vray now.


RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

ThePriest
04-03-2006, 06:39 AM
Keep it civilized guys, there's no need to get upset with one another.

lllab
04-03-2006, 09:41 AM
"Where is that taken from? Because its a pretty insulting attitude, if its Chaos'. Whe're not good enough for their attention? Perhaps it was meant as 'we don't have the technical know-how, so better get an expert'?"

they would like to but are already doing the maya and xsi connection and of course the 1.5 version. its not arrogant, but i guess to much work at once. But i am sure they would be very happy knowing somebody is doing it.

if you see vray4rhino- it is very much possible to do a connection by someone else- vray4rhino is getting nice along and is done by asgvis.

cheers
stefan

lllab
04-03-2006, 09:43 AM
" If u want Vray now get it n a app that runs it today that way u have Vray now."

...and buy max for 4000$??? and learn it, and struggle with its objectmanagerless interface, and seeing only 20 materials at one time and....well not for me.

rhino would be an option, but it cant animate.

cheers
stefan

belushy
04-03-2006, 10:20 AM
I mean it would be great to have it especially for ArchVis boys and girls. And since I working in this field an see what my competitors do with Vray I'm really thinking to add it to my workflow. to leave C4D is no Question to me but there are a lot of reasons to add this tool to my workflow. but as long as it is quite complicated to exchange all data it does not make seens to go this way. FR2 is quite powerfull in this case but it seems to have difficulties in the dayly routine and Vray seems to be a lot faster, if you know how to operate it and the 'Quality of the light' looks pretty good.
So my hope would be that someone takes the lead and starts to talk and handle to make this happen. I would be willing to invest in such a development, because i did this with the other Renderengines and think that its would bring some enrichment to my work.
So let's find someone who does it and set out a reward.

cheers
belushy

and someone did it already for our 1st april fools

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/5189/wish5sx.jpg
(http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/5189/wish5sx.jpg)

lllab
04-03-2006, 11:09 AM
:-)))

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
04-03-2006, 01:43 PM
The idea of a bunch of interested C4D users pooling some money to hire a bridge-writer has merit. Throwing money into a sinkhole like NextLimit no longer does (thanks to NL's behaviour). Having someone who is working for you on a project is sounding quite good, so thanks for suggesting it!

I do not want to leave Cinema. But using vRay in the architectural market is becoming more and more 'common practice'. I don't care what others do, so long as I can produce work that I and my clients are happy with. BUT... I am exploring the idea of working with a larger studio, and that may very well mean using vRay for rendered output. So the question comes back to whether I have to use Max, which I do not want to do if I don't absolutely have to. So a vRay/C4D bridge would be the best of both worlds for me, and I think for the arch-vis field as a whole.

So who could write it and what would it cost?

lllab
04-03-2006, 01:52 PM
Hi Earnest,
you have a priv. massage from me...

cheers
stefan

Archigraphica
04-03-2006, 02:40 PM
Interesting thread. Here's the first thing that came to mind when I read it: Last fall I contacted 3dAttack about doing a little plug-in for me. That Chris guy they have is an amazing programmer. He made a plug-in that saves me 15min every time I import a new file into Cinema. And I think it took him about 30min to make. Anyway when we were talking about the plug-in we had a conversation about what it would take to remake Net with some extra features. He felt it was a real doable thing from a "programming" standpoint. But Maxon would hopefully get to it so it really wasn’t worth pursuing. My point is it might be something worth taking up with them. The guy definitely has the skills! I know I’d put up a few hundred bucks for development costs.

AdamT
04-03-2006, 03:40 PM
It is an interesting idea. How interesting may depend on the level of integration. It might not be difficult to do a basic connection, given that Cinema has the necessary SDK hooks, but as Srek alluded to earlier, it could be a whole diffferent ballgame if you want/need support for Cinema's materials and procedurals. I'm not familiar with VRay's procedurals; maybe they would be an adequate replacement?

Ernest Burden
04-03-2006, 03:46 PM
it could be a whole diffferent ballgame if you want/need support for Cinema's materials and procedurals. I'm not familiar with VRay's procedurals; maybe they would be an adequate replacement?

Me, either. But let's keep looking at this until we hit a wall.

I have no clue--is this a $5,000 project, a $50,000 or a $500,000 project? I would assume a good coder would expect about US$5,000 per week or more, but how many weeks would it take to code/test?

Srek
04-03-2006, 03:52 PM
I can only guess by using Renderman ports as a hint. It takes only a few weeks to create a working Renderman exporter where you have to create the materials seperately. A fully integrated version that supports CINEMAs lighting and material system to a great extent (like the one that comes with the Production Bundle) takes many months, even for a skilled programmer.

Cheers
Björn

lllab
04-03-2006, 04:32 PM
well a lot of speculations here...

"US$5,000 per week"..???
i wonder if any plugin programmer got that much here anytime? but actually if enough people would buy it, a programmer could get quite some money....

cheers
stefan

wbj
04-03-2006, 05:03 PM
well a lot of speculations here...

"US$5,000 per week"..???
i wonder if any plugin programmer got that much here anytime? but actually if enough people would buy it, a programmer could get quite some money....

cheers
stefan

If you make your assumptions based on the salary poll made by the german IT magazine c't, 500$ per day (8 hours) should be sufficient (only 10% of the participants got more).

Best regards,

wbj

lllab
04-03-2006, 05:10 PM
i should have become a programmer;-)

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
04-03-2006, 05:35 PM
If you make your assumptions based on the salary poll made by the german IT magazine c't, 500$ per day (8 hours) should be sufficient (only 10% of the participants got more)

That's $2500/wk, I guessed $5000. The real question, and Srek addressed it somewhat, is how many weeks? That's the nut.

ThirdEye
04-03-2006, 05:35 PM
i should have become a programmer;-)

cheers
stefan

my same thoughts ;)

Matariki
04-03-2006, 10:17 PM
That's $2500/wk, I guessed $5000. The real question, and Srek addressed it somewhat, is how many weeks? That's the nut.

But also how many actually want vray? How many are willing to pay how much to get a vray c4d bridge. A good programmer who has experience with the c4d SDK and some knowledge of vray's import structures could code some basic (no materials etc) in about 4 weeks. There is also the question of code maintenance and what happen to those who come late to the party? All those who forked out the money for the kick off of the project will probably pay a rather high price if only a few are willing to participate. If those want to recoup some of that initial investment it will become very messy. Who will own the code? The group of people that made the initial investment? How will you manage that?

Another thought is how many of those who are interested could actually cut code and would be willing to contribute to a community project? I know this can be quite tricky but others have pulled it off and paying a coder is not without problems either.

just my 2 cents.

PS: I have coded for more than 10 years, believe me it is much nicer (by orders of magnitude) to do architectural illustrations.

lllab
04-03-2006, 11:07 PM
" PS: I have coded for more than 10 years, believe me it is much nicer (by orders of magnitude) to do architectural illustrations."

have you done archiz for 10+ years??? its all very relative i guess;-)

cheers
stefan

Matariki
04-04-2006, 12:11 AM
have you done archiz for 10+ years??? its all very relative i guess;-)

cheers
stefan

I guess as long as it is a hobby everything is just exciting and fun but once you make it your job it turns sour after a while. It is just a question to what degree.

Now back to the topic...

Ernest Burden
04-04-2006, 01:26 AM
have you done archiz for 10+ years??? its all very relative i guess;-)

I'm at 25+ years, so its relative all right.

Anyway, yes there are a lot of issues with some C4D users hiring a coder to build a bridge. I do not have answers to all that myself, but right now we're just talking, playing with ideas. So if we can't find a good way, nothing happens. But if we do, something wonderful does.

AdamT
04-04-2006, 01:37 AM
It's hard to say for sure, but I would imagine there'd be a pretty big market for a bridge plugin. Look at Maxwell, where Cinema users make up the second largest user group--ahead of Maya, LW, XSI, etc., and second only to Max users.

In other words, if there was someone capable of doing the work it would probably pay off handsomely, whether or not it was funded initially by preorder customers.

If I was that person I'd seriously consider taking preorders as means to gauge interest--without collecting until delivery. That way he or she could drop the project if there weren't enough customers willing to put up the cash. Maybe say, "I'm going to do this thing if I get 100+ preorders @ $100 a piece. Otherwise ... not so much."

Matariki
04-04-2006, 01:45 AM
there is nothing wrong with tossing ideas around, that's how projects start. My intention was not to pure water on the fire. The more render engines are available for cinema the better. I love to have vray, particularly as MR isn't going anywhere soon and the mac port of FR2 has dived below the horizon too.

Matariki
04-04-2006, 01:55 AM
It's hard to say for sure, but I would imagine there'd be a pretty big market for a bridge plugin. Look at Maxwell, where Cinema users make up the second largest user group--ahead of Maya, LW, XSI, etc., and second only to Max users.

Valid point. Although vray is "only" pc, you might loose about half, still quite a lot of potential customers. It appears that there are quite a few cinema users (not only archviz) that are willing to pay for a 3rd party renderer despite the improvements AR 2.5 has brought.

In other words, if there was someone capable of doing the work it would probably pay off handsomely, whether or not it was funded initially by preorder customers.

If I was that person I'd seriously consider taking preorders as means to gauge interest--without collecting until delivery.

We have been burned before :-(

That way he or she could drop the project if there weren't enough customers willing to put up the cash. Maybe say, "I'm going to do this thing if I get 100+ preorders @ $100 a piece. Otherwise ... not so much."

Ernest Burden
04-04-2006, 02:29 AM
Its hard to tell how many people bought fr2. You could fire a canon in their forum and not hit anyone.

ThePriest
04-04-2006, 04:50 AM
There's a lot of emphasis on tight material integration. Max doesn't have it, there's a material wrapper, which is neither stable or useful

Vray materials integrate well enough, but they're by no means advanced.
There's Reflection, Refraction, Glossiness, Translucency, Fog Color and the ability to add diffuse, bump/normal maps and displacement.

I would imagine a bridge would only be similar to the integration of maxwell, which is a bare minimum.

Besides a solution for the VRay light & sun, I don't think it's that big of a task.

lllab
04-04-2006, 08:58 AM
well vray for max like integration would be excellent for me!
max is where vray was initially developed for;-)

by the way there is no better integration anyway, and vray materials are very, very highend in result too.

the real question is how deep an initial connection should be at first. i could imagine a connection with support for basic materials(bitmaps in channels) or maybe kind of tags like maxwell for the first thing, and later a deeper development to get it like final render.

cheers
stefan

Stain777
04-04-2006, 02:40 PM
Its hard to tell how many people bought fr2. You could fire a canon in their forum and not hit anyone.

That's very bad news. If that's any indication for how many purchased it, and how active the community is, they're not going to make back their investment. If that's the case it's a difficult argument to make that 3rd party vendors should port over their rendering solutions, or continue to update existing ones.

Ernest Burden
04-04-2006, 02:55 PM
That's very bad news...

I can't tell what it means. First of all, they have not gotten the Mac version working, and if they did they would have more active people. Second, there are some bugs and issues that are acknowledged and waiting for a service pack to address. So I think many people have realized that they just have to wait for that. Also, the rest of it works pretty well, and is so well integrated that maybe there isn't much to talk about. It works. Except for the stuff that doesn't, and talking isn't going to help.

I still want to push for vRay/C4D. If Chaos isn't doing a port, they would simply be able to sell more licences without much effort, and whomever is writing the bridge may have a different standard od what's worthwhile financially. So I remain hopeful.

AdamT
04-04-2006, 03:00 PM
IMO Cebas is primarily responsible for the inactivity at their forums. People post questions and bug reports but rarely get a response. After a while people don't bother to post anymore.

lllab
04-04-2006, 03:33 PM
yes they dont answer to their customers, only some view other engaged customers. pretty much the same as with MW.

i guess after all, that there will be quite a market for vray even if it is win only for the first time. it is a rock solid-very stable renderengine, developed very fast and continously updated- just like everybody wished.

i dont see it as a competitor to cinema, but more a very nice additional option. cinema is getting more and more contact to the pro-renderengines out there, renderman already, FR,MW, and i hope sometime vray. it would be good for the cinema 4d market too.

cheers
stefan

Stain777
04-04-2006, 04:39 PM
If I was that person I'd seriously consider taking preorders as means to gauge interest--without collecting until delivery. That way he or she could drop the project if there weren't enough customers willing to put up the cash. Maybe say, "I'm going to do this thing if I get 100+ preorders @ $100 a piece. Otherwise ... not so much."

I'd be more than willing to put up some money as I'm already going to great lengths to bring Vray in-house right now. An incremental investment in a plug-in wouldn't be out of the question and I wouldn't mind putting some seed money in if a programmer can tell us that he can guarantee results. What & when it would be expected, e.g., a basic interface, "some" material transfer, full-fledged support, textures only, etc.

I have no idea how much you can tell before digging into a project like this. Whether a programmer has to review the hooks and access before being able to say, "Here's what you'll get." It ought to be very, very clearly defined before people begin to lay out money as they have a tendancy to get short-tempered when cash is involved. We've all seen the whining, cry-babies that never feel like they've gotten their money's worth no matter what's delivered. ;)

ThePriest
04-04-2006, 05:57 PM
My $200 initial investment is on the table, another 50 like minds you've got a $10'000 incentive.

Are there any programmers reading this thread remotely interested?

AdamT
04-04-2006, 06:03 PM
After my experience with Maxwell I'd be very hesitant to put down money up front. Maybe if it was a programmer I knew pretty well and trusted. I would preorder for payment on delivery.

Does'nt seem like there are any takers though.

Stain777
04-04-2006, 06:05 PM
After my experience with Maxwell I'd be very hesitant to put down money up front. Maybe if it was a programmer I knew pretty well and trusted. I would preorder for payment on delivery.

Does'nt seem like there are any takers though.

Come on Adam, let's give them another 15 minutes to reply.

;)

Ernest Burden
04-04-2006, 07:58 PM
After my experience with Maxwell I'd be very hesitant to put down money up front. Maybe if it was a programmer I knew pretty well and trusted. I would preorder for payment on delivery.

Does'nt seem like there are any takers though.

First--I would be more willing to put money up front if it was to HIRE someone to do a specific project, rather than to buy something that is being done outside our control. Its a subtle difference, but worth considering. And...there may be ways to get things going off-forum.

If it wasn't clear before, I am quite open to putting up some money, too.

ThePriest
04-04-2006, 08:17 PM
Maxwell works in one way or another, there's great work in the gallery to prove it, it's been a bumpy road in getting to the promised release, but it does what you'd expect.

AdamT
04-04-2006, 08:20 PM
Maxwell works in one way or another, there's great work in the gallery to prove it, it's been a bumpy road in getting to the promised release, but it does what you'd expect.
Don't get me started. :)

ThePriest
04-04-2006, 08:38 PM
Don't get me started. :)

I'm not trying to. I'm implying that there are instances of it working for people who've been willing to use what they have. It's not a false statement.

AdamT
04-04-2006, 08:50 PM
I would say "it does what you'd expect" is a false statement, or don't you expect a modern engine to render sunlight through glass? Support clipmaps? Render print resolution interiors in less than 100 hours? Displacement? Normal maps? Particles? Animation? Motion blur? I guess my expectations are pretty high.

Stain777
04-04-2006, 08:50 PM
First--I would be more willing to put money up front if it was to HIRE someone to do a specific project, rather than to buy something that is being done outside our control. Its a subtle difference, but worth considering. And...there may be ways to get things going off-forum.

If it wasn't clear before, I am quite open to putting up some money, too.

This makes sense to me too. This would tie the programmer directly to a specific group with a defined, contracted list of results. I think this isn't subtle at all; building the bridge for a nameless face with unkown return, or a partner who guarantees payment upon completion.

Adam's 15 minutes are up and we haven't heard from any of the sites programming community. So this might be a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing until we hear from a credible code writer.

lllab
04-04-2006, 08:58 PM
well there are many options, and i must say you cant compare it directly with MW, because in the case of Vray verything is there- working.

"only" a connection plugin has to be programmed, the rest works very well and stable, with a sdk which makes a connection to any external app possible.

cheers
Stefan

ThePriest
04-04-2006, 08:59 PM
Ok, but hasn't stopped these Artists from creating their work, that's my real point:

http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/110.jpg
http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/109.jpg

This looks like sun light through glass?

http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/105.jpg

http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/92.jpg

Stain777
04-04-2006, 09:02 PM
I'm concerned about this thread getting highjacked with a, "Why I hate/love Maxwell" bent. Could we stick with the original discussion and discuss possibilties for a VRay bridge? The Maxwell discussion certainly has merit, but might be better served in a new thread.

What do you think?

lllab
04-04-2006, 09:05 PM
yes please, keep mw to the mw forum- they have their own.

here we talk Vray;-)

cheers
stefan

AdamT
04-04-2006, 09:09 PM
Ok, but hasn't stopped these Artists from creating their work, that's my real point:

http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/110.jpg
http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/109.jpg

This looks like sun light through glass?

http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/105.jpg

http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/92.jpg (http://www.maxwellrender.com/pics/92.jpg)
Oh yeah, there's no question that it's capable of doing some beautiful renders, but it has severe limitations in its current state and it looks like some of the biggest ones won't be resolved until v.2.0. God only knows if or when we might see that.

Regarding sunlight through glass--it's a problem of viewing caustics when there's a dielectric material between the camera and the caustic; in M*R *all* light passing through a transparent material is a caustic. So it's generally not a problem for interiors, though it can be (for example, direct light shining on a glass coffee table, or caustics seen in reflections).

sketchbook
04-05-2006, 12:43 AM
someone has 5k from me.

that's at least what i will be spending on getting a full version of max, a decent pc, and vray.

i would like to see 3dattack get crackin on this!

RorrKonn
04-05-2006, 07:15 AM
Maybe u all our looken for ya coder at the wrong place.
Get the coders that made the TrueSpace,Max bridges n get them to make a C4D Bride. :)

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Continuumx
04-05-2006, 03:35 PM
I'm not trying to. I'm implying that there are instances of it working for people who've been willing to use what they have. It's not a false statement.

I agree, ThePriest. Classic example of half glass filled (Thank you very much for what you can provide at this time" versus, "You promised me a full glass?!?!?!? Where is it?"

AdamT
04-05-2006, 04:14 PM
I agree, ThePriest. Classic example of half glass filled (Thank you very much for what you can provide at this time" versus, "You promised me a full glass?!?!?!? Where is it?"
Absolutely, but as we all paid for a full glass, don't you think we should get it?

flingster
04-05-2006, 11:42 PM
It's hard to say for sure, but I would imagine there'd be a pretty big market for a bridge plugin. Look at Maxwell, where Cinema users make up the second largest user group--ahead of Maya, LW, XSI, etc., and second only to Max users.


yeah and look where that got us...heh heh. not sure c4d plugin is the worst but it ain't stunning craftsmanship either....you'd think they'd be bothered in disappointing us.
:shrug:

Ernest Burden
04-06-2006, 03:12 AM
...you'd think they'd be bothered in disappointing us.
:shrug:

Not much bothers that bunch. So to hell with 'em. vRay, anyone?

jackb602
04-06-2006, 04:44 AM
Hmm, with the announcement of Boot Camp (http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/) today, I'm suddenly more interested in a potential bridge to Vray. I suppose a Mac user could use the bridge to export a C4D scene to (a hypothetical) Vray standalone in Windows, and render from there. This would be much more practical with some kind of virtualization, so rebooting wouldn't be necessary. This means the bridge would have to be available for both platforms. Would this be possible if Vray remains Windows only? And regarding coding, I think the 3d Attack guys would be very good candidates for this.

Jack

jondoe0ne
04-06-2006, 08:54 AM
i think i've heard enough demands for a Vray bridge, but no offer, despite the potential money offer, or other kinds of income... so all the coders, per, tapaul, rui, 3d attack, everybody....??? nobody?

lllab
04-06-2006, 09:13 AM
jack, thats an interesting perpective, maybe this can be possible.

@jondoe0ne: let see what tif "eastern rabbit" not only brings eggs this year?
cheers
stefan

sunmade
04-06-2006, 10:12 AM
I'm on a Mac aswell, so Bootcamp or later Virtualisation is very welcome...Cinema 4D and Vray Vray Vray!

I'm looking forward to the Easter Rabbit...

Ernest Burden
04-06-2006, 01:13 PM
I'm looking forward to the Easter Rabbit...

Easter is about renewal, hope, and salvation.

Stain777
04-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Easter is about renewal, hope, and salvation.


??!! What about pretty eggs and big chocolate bunnies?

Ernest Burden
04-06-2006, 02:56 PM
??!! What about pretty eggs and big chocolate bunnies?

I was just trying to stay on topic.

Stain777
04-06-2006, 04:32 PM
I was just trying to stay on topic.

Just a little levity, didn't mean to offend.

Follow my last statement with a ;)

Stain777
04-11-2006, 02:04 AM
Bump

Just wanted to find out if anyone had thought about writing code for this or if anyone had contacted a developer.

I did contact 3d Attack and got the impression that they're too busy at the moment.

jondoe0ne
04-11-2006, 06:42 AM
my impression was that we're just talking about how nice it would be to have a brige, people offered money, but to no avail... it seems that we'lll have to wait.

lllab
04-11-2006, 09:27 AM
hmm, is it eastern already?

cheers
stefan

jondoe0ne
04-11-2006, 09:36 AM
r u a beta tester?
u know someting we don't and we should?
just a puny hint?

lllab
04-11-2006, 09:39 AM
"r u a beta tester"

..NO
;-)

jondoe0ne
04-11-2006, 09:41 AM
man you're killing me!!!
and which easter r u talking about? the catholic, or the orthodox one ?

lllab
04-11-2006, 09:41 AM
hmm, good question:-)

belushy
04-11-2006, 09:56 AM
something is gonna happen here i can feel it

Ernest Burden
04-11-2006, 12:52 PM
something is gonna happen here i can feel it

In my bones...if not my wallet...

ooo
04-11-2006, 04:13 PM
something is gonna happen here i can feel it

Yes there will be eggs and easterbunnies all over the place!
is that great or what? :-)

odo

JIII
04-11-2006, 08:26 PM
My mom already sent me my easter candy :-) (in college). Is there any substantiation behind these easter theories? Or is this bally ho all for naught?

-J3

AdamT
04-11-2006, 08:31 PM
My mom already sent me my easter candy :-) (in college). Is there any substantiation behind these easter theories? Or is this bally ho all for naught?

-J3
No, there is no God.

Oh, you mean the VRay thing! Not sure.... :)

ooo
04-11-2006, 09:06 PM
No, there is no God.

Oh, you mean the VRay thing! Not sure.... :)

Here we go again...

But Adam, it's almost eastern now and I noticed you still wear this X-mas thing on your head. Don't you think it's time for something a little more eastern-style? ;-)

odo

sketchbook
04-12-2006, 09:06 AM
No, there is no God.

easter bunnies and eggs are one thing, but come on.

i just don't understand statements like this in a c4d forum. whether you think it will or not, it will offend many people. you must know this. it doesn't matter what your intention was.

for someone to make a statement like this in a setting like this shows a complete lack of respect in my view.

please keep it professional. read the posting guidelines.

ThirdEye
04-12-2006, 10:41 AM
keep it quiet folks

sunmade
04-12-2006, 10:50 AM
<my 2 cents>
wow...

so no freedom of speech here??

too bad, political correctness all over the place...

I don't think AdamT wanted to offend anyone, he was refering to an earlier post...

and made a joke (not a bad one IMHO)

a rather innocent one as well.

I'm ready to be flamed ;-)

sketchbook, your statements can offend people as well !! very important!!

</my 2 cents>

Now back to VRay for Cinema 4D...

ooo
04-12-2006, 11:28 AM
I also cannot imagine why someone would be offended by this. But whatever people think about this kind of issues, it's better to keep this forum free from any political or religious comments, because there is always somebody offended and it leads always to unpleasant threads. If it's 3D or C4d related it's another story in my opinion.

So today I crushed an enormous chocolate eastern-bunny I got from a friend. So no choice but to eat all the pieces. I feel like an egg :sad:

odo

sunmade
04-12-2006, 11:36 AM
I will crush my choco bunny on purpose, that way I can eat it earlier ;-)
I'm addicted to chocolate... ;-)

btw, odo, of course you are right. This is a tech forum, not reli. or poli., and it should stay that way.
The point on those "...could offend someone" phrases is, that EVERYTHING can offend someone. Where do we start and where to stop????

Sorry for also being of topic, but it is so tiring... I'll stop now.

Now, all politics and religion topics aside(allthough it NEVER was one, jeez), and back to what really interests us...

peaceful 3D

ooo
04-12-2006, 11:49 AM
Ok back on topic then:

If there indeed will be some kind of VRay-bridge for C4D, what does one need to use it. I imagine you have to buy a standalone VRay licence (costs?) wich will be PC-only I guess. I have seen beautifull VRay renders indeed so that might interest me. Can it be used in animation too and how about renderfarms? I mean to say I'm an VRay-noob and would love to know what happens if a bridge comes true. It's not the same as with MW or FR, is it?

odo

Now was that OT or what?

Edit: Kind of boring post now.
Ok I'll add that I have to admitt that I intentionally crushed my bunny so I could eat the chocolate. Phew, that feels better! :)

ThirdEye
04-12-2006, 12:01 PM
Please stop all the religious/political comments, they're not allowed here. 2nd warning.

Ernest Burden
04-12-2006, 01:05 PM
Please stop all the religious/political comments, they're not allowed here. 2nd warning.

Sorry, I think I started it.

ThirdEye
04-12-2006, 01:43 PM
Sorry, I think I started it.

no problem whoever started it, let's get back on track from now on :)

Continuumx
04-12-2006, 03:18 PM
If you want a bridge to Vray there are more productive ways to get things moving in that direction than endless wishes. Send a letter and petition to Chaos Group. Form a collective of some kind and approach a couple of C4D developers. Work out a plan or formal contract of some kind that shows how serious you all are about bringing a bridge to C4d.

Back in the day a long time ago, people did this kind of thing in the music scene to bring DJs to their towns, cities, and warehouses, and it continues to this date.

It does work.

Ernest Burden
04-12-2006, 04:41 PM
If you want a bridge to Vray there are more productive ways to get things moving in that direction than endless wishes.

If those things were in the works already, the people doing them may not want to write about it until there are concrete results. So posts may lag procedures.

Stain777
04-13-2006, 12:02 AM
If you want a bridge to Vray there are more productive ways to get things moving in that direction than endless wishes. Send a letter and petition to Chaos Group. Form a collective of some kind and approach a couple of C4D developers. Work out a plan or formal contract of some kind that shows how serious you all are about bringing a bridge to C4d.

Back in the day a long time ago, people did this kind of thing in the music scene to bring DJs to their towns, cities, and warehouses, and it continues to this date.

It does work.

This is exactly the kind of thing that I was hoping to put together along with the help of some of the other folks here. Which is also why I approached 3dAttack to see if they'd be interested in the development of the bridge.

You have some good suggestions and I will take them to heart. It may be that Chaos group is already working on something that we can use, but we won't know until it's released. In the mean time, it would behoove us to go forward with some of the kinds of things you suggest.

Those who are interested in pursuing this, email me so that we can begin to form a coalition and approach Chaos Group or other avenues.

sketchbook
04-13-2006, 02:35 AM
go jason! you have a big company behind you so you should be able to get somewhere. i am interested in helping you out as needed.

sunmade
04-13-2006, 07:32 AM
Hey guys, re-read Ernest's last Post...

relax...wait...drink some tea...

It's Easter very SOON... wink wink

sketchbook
04-13-2006, 07:55 AM
shutting mouth

lllab
04-13-2006, 09:46 AM
hey guys, just a view days and you will get some info that might interest some of you:-)

cheers
stefan

ThirdEye
04-13-2006, 10:40 AM
hey guys, just a view days and you will get some info that might interest some of you:-)

cheers
stefan


getting interesting ;)

chi
04-13-2006, 10:47 AM
getting interesting ;)

indeed, I"m keeping my eyes on this thread and my ears very open.

kossoolli
04-13-2006, 11:02 AM
I hope we are going to get some nice easter eggs :-) And I hope it isn't just a joke.

Rich-Art
04-13-2006, 11:57 AM
If it is what I think or hope,....................................:scream:

Peace,
Rich-Art. :thumbsup:

moka.studio
04-13-2006, 07:54 PM
hey guys, just a view days and you will get some info that might interest some of you:-)

cheers
stefan

he he ;)......

Continuumx
04-14-2006, 04:29 AM
Very nice!

AdamT
04-14-2006, 05:28 AM
Cool--more and more excited about a VRay port, especially now that I (and Ernest) have been booted off the Maxwell forums.

ThirdEye
04-14-2006, 08:57 AM
Cool--more and more excited about a VRay port, especially now that I (and Ernest) have been booted off the Maxwell forums.

rotfl, booted after you gave them money

Ernest Burden
04-14-2006, 12:37 PM
rotfl, booted after you gave them money

I accept that as a 'customer' of NextLimit I am now the laughing stock of the industry. But when will NextLimit figure out that it's really them? Adam and I were exiled for asking one of their employees to be more respectful to the customers on their forum. The whole thing is laughable, so don't feel bad about laughing at our situation, not one little bit. We deserve it, really.

ThirdEye
04-14-2006, 01:03 PM
We deserve it, really.

It's not you, you just had faith in them. It's THEM and no one else. If there's a thing i love about Maxon is they're among the most serious and professional people i've ever met when it comes to their software.

Ernest Burden
04-14-2006, 02:01 PM
If there's a thing i love about Maxon is they're among the most serious and professional people i've ever met when it comes to their software.

Just before being banned I had pointed to our Srek as an example of how their people should behave on a public forum.

Srek
04-14-2006, 03:15 PM
Just before being banned I had pointed to our Srek as an example of how their people should behave on a public forum.
Thanks for the nice words, but my job here is much easier. For one, CG Talk does not belong to Maxon so my position on the board is rather different and secondly i'm lucky to work for a company that takes a different approach on some things. Additionaly here on CG Talk there are Admins that are not involved with the application specific problems, to wich we forum leaders can fall back for the realy problematic stuff.
Cheers
Björn

Ernest Burden
04-14-2006, 03:20 PM
Björn,

The examples set by NextLimit among others, has only served to show us how professionally and respectfully we are treated by Maxon, and by you. It is appreciated.

I'm hoping that the Chaos people will be as good as the Maxon people are. There's more to being successful in this industry than just code.

AdamT
04-14-2006, 04:06 PM
Srek is way too professional to work for a company like NL. He'd figure out what's going on over there on day one, and offer his resignation on day two.

Regarding the NL forums, it doesn't surprise me at all that they've cracked down on negative posting. It's obviously not good for their bottom line. What's disturbing about the latest action is that it had nothing to do with criticism of NL. Rather, it was a personal response by a moderator and NL employee who was called out for acting unprofessionally. His first response was that he didn't represent NL, even though he's employed by them and moderates their forums. His second response was to ban the persons complaining, without any warning or explanation.

ThirdEye
04-14-2006, 06:12 PM
Adam consider yourself banned. :D

AdamT
04-14-2006, 06:24 PM
Adam consider yourself banned. :D
That is the most unprofessional thing I've ever seen! :)

ThirdEye
04-14-2006, 08:09 PM
That is the most unprofessional thing I've ever seen! :)

Why, i even gave you a warning :D

LucentDreams
04-15-2006, 05:29 AM
That is the most unprofessional thing I've ever seen! :)

meh I think its very deserved, I mean you haven't even changed your avatar, which is insane, I mean even I changed mine last week :D no seriously I figured its easter so it might be about time to get rid of the christmas hat, had to update the sig anyways.



Have to say NL is really kicking themselves in the butt with how they treat their customers and such. Its one thing to see quite a few companies late on delivering gods they promised, but NL is defintiley trying to outdo everyone in the poor customer service.

Definitely reassures me on my defense that maxon keeping secrets about production being a good thing though. I'd always rather see a post ranting abotu maxon not spoiling secrets rather then maxon not delivering.

AdamT
04-15-2006, 06:35 AM
Its one thing to see quite a few companies late on delivering gods they promised
Hey ThirdEye, Kai's bringing god into it again. If I'm banned then Kai should be too! :D

ThirdEye
04-15-2006, 09:53 AM
Hey ThirdEye, Kai's bringing god into it again. If I'm banned then Kai should be too! :D

no problem ;)

Ernest Burden
04-15-2006, 01:40 PM
So Chaos is famous for slow delivery, as well. Has anyone here been a customer of theirs, and how are you treated as compared to Maxon and NextLimit?

moka.studio
04-15-2006, 02:29 PM
regardless of how good the M~R renderer may one day eventually be, it is such things that will keep me from buying, as I have no interest in supporting a company that shows such a laughable attitude towards its customers. But let's not get deviated by bringing M~R into this. We have heard it all before.
jp

Other3DMaster
04-15-2006, 03:30 PM
... as I have no interest in supporting a company that shows such a laudable attitude towards its customers.
jp

"laudable" is actually a positive word, it means "worthy of high praise"... i think in terms of NL's treatment of its customers you meant to say laughable... ;-)

moka.studio
04-15-2006, 03:36 PM
"laudable" is actually a positive word, it means "worthy of high praise"... i think in terms of NL's treatment of its customers you meant to say laughable... ;-)

right! thanks for that, their attitube is anything but Laudable. Laughable.
cheers

lllab
04-15-2006, 06:45 PM
"So Chaos is famous for slow delivery, as well. Has anyone here been a customer of theirs, and how are you treated as compared to Maxon and NextLimit?"

well actually not ( not slow). they give its users regular updates, bugfixes every month etc. actually sokmething i wished we would get from maxon too. also you get almost instant answer from vlado in the chaosgroup-forum.

of course the version 1.5 is also late, but it evolved, and even chaosgroup cannot make wonders. but the users are able to work with a version 1.47.xx, which is almost at version 1.5.

i would say you cannot even compare to NL, but it is also a bit different to maxon of course, overall chaosgroup might be on the same friendlyness & quality-level as maxon.

cheers
stefan

sketchbook
04-16-2006, 07:06 AM
hey, isn't it time for the news! eagerly awaiting.

kossoolli
04-16-2006, 09:54 AM
Me too! Where are the news?

ThePriest
04-16-2006, 09:58 AM
Nice to see the thread going strong, I've been too preoccupied to keep up with some of it.

I discovered a work associate is quite well acquainted with a guy from the chaos camp and I'm hoping atleast to open a line of communication there if possible. If not only to drop a few words of wisdom on why a bridge/port would be mutually beneficial.

I'll support any petition you have going on, just tell me where to sign up.

kossoolli
04-16-2006, 10:05 AM
That is all? That were THE news? Damn, I expected more...

ThePriest
04-16-2006, 10:13 AM
That is all? That were THE news? Damn, I expected more...

I don't know about any news.

ThirdEye
04-16-2006, 10:43 AM
That is all? That were THE news? Damn, I expected more...

please calm down.

jondoe0ne
04-16-2006, 11:40 AM
hey llab, i'm still waiting for an answer... the catholic easter or the orthodox one?

Ernest Burden
04-16-2006, 12:34 PM
hey llab, i'm still waiting for an answer... the catholic easter or the orthodox one?

When is orthadox Easter, by the way?

lllab
04-16-2006, 12:41 PM
hey all.

sorry for the unclearness, i have intended to give the info by tomorrow evening, on what we call easter monday here, not sure if this is in all countries the same thing. it is meant vienna/europe time.

today is time for my family, and i also have to clear one or two technical things. hope all is cleared by then.

the info/ annoucement is simpel, but will hopefully make some of you happy.

nice eastern in the meanwhile:-)

cheers
stefan

sunmade
04-16-2006, 02:23 PM
thanks stefan.

looking forward to the announcement.

Have a nice easter with your family.

chris

sketchbook
04-16-2006, 04:12 PM
thank you stefan. have a good day with the family.

jondoe0ne
04-17-2006, 08:34 AM
When is orthadox Easter, by the way?

next sunday

Stain777
04-17-2006, 02:27 PM
When is orthadox Easter, by the way?

Easter is not only a movable holiday (http://www.factmonster.com/spot/movablefeasts1.html) but a multiple one: in most years Western Christian churches and Eastern Orthodox churches celebrate Easter on different dates: in 2006, for example, Easter (http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/society/A0816577.html) is celebrated on April 16 by Western churches and April 23 by Orthodox churches.


Doh! Another week of this agony!!!

ThirdEye
04-17-2006, 02:47 PM
Doh! Another week of this agony!!!


another week? llab said this evening, didn't he? :shrug:

lllab
04-17-2006, 04:42 PM
Hi all,

no i intended to release an info today in the night, but i must admit i can happen that it will be delayed for 1-2 days. i cought i kind of influenza and feel rather bad, not the best condition in writing and checking everything.

now i start to understand why some people dont give out dates before;-). hope you understand me.

i try to finish it today, lets see, but i really cant promise, please have some patience.

cheers
stefan

jondoe0ne
04-17-2006, 04:47 PM
sorry double post... i thought i'll never do this but here i am....

sunmade
04-17-2006, 04:48 PM
hey stefan
don't worry, we are ready when you are.
get well soon.

Thanks for letting us know.

chris

jondoe0ne
04-17-2006, 04:48 PM
oh, i just hate all this mistery! i hope it's worth it... get well soon and tell us what is this all about!
happy easter!

kossoolli
04-17-2006, 06:01 PM
i try to finish it today, lets see,

Hhmm, maybe we got a secret vray-bridge writer. That would be awesome.

Elentor
04-18-2006, 02:32 AM
I'm not rich, but whatever money is needed, I'll gladly give up a month of work for it.

michaeli
04-19-2006, 07:27 AM
Any news ?

kossoolli
04-19-2006, 10:19 AM
Yeah, any news? Maybe he is ill, I think he said something like that :-(

kossoolli
04-19-2006, 03:45 PM
I dont know what some people here are working on, but if you nedd help, I would be the first one to say I'm in.

jondoe0ne
04-20-2006, 08:39 AM
maybe this sunday....
stefan how are you feeling?

castroman
04-20-2006, 10:47 AM
the suspense is killing me.:scream:

kossoolli
04-21-2006, 02:41 PM
When do we get some news? I can't stand this anymore.

belushy
04-21-2006, 03:02 PM
vrayforc4d.com

interactiveBoy
04-21-2006, 03:54 PM
vrayforc4d.com




I'm not sure that the owner of that domain was ready to share that just yet.

lllab
04-21-2006, 05:00 PM
arggg.. Florian..sowas...

i feel guilty and sorry, its not yet finished, -at least i am cured, but i had to finish an arch competition too, (finished right now)...

pleace some more patience,
(i know how bad this waiting is, as i am a user normally myself.)

cheers
stefan

kossoolli
04-21-2006, 07:11 PM
Wohhoooo, that sounds really great. I'm so excited.

P.s: Nice that you are feeling better, llab!

If you ned help, I would be glad to help you.

AdamT
04-21-2006, 07:19 PM
We all appreciate your efforts, Stefan. Don't stress yourself out!

chris_b
04-21-2006, 08:01 PM
Hmm.... this is extremely intruiging. I am clamping onto this thread.

Stain777
04-23-2006, 03:33 PM
Happy Eastern Orthodox Easter everybody!

I'm hoping for some good news today.
:)

feel3d
04-24-2006, 08:44 AM
Pffffff.... after 17 pages of reading for this promising thread, i would like to know whats going on!!! Patience...

lllab
04-24-2006, 02:03 PM
very soon more!!!

cheers
stefan

sketchbook
04-24-2006, 02:06 PM
no worries. it's always better to have something before you tout it as opposed to the other way around. we have seen that before.

Stain777
04-24-2006, 02:20 PM
no worries. it's always better to have something before you tout it as opposed to the other way around. we have seen that before.

Come on Sketchbook, you know us Americans. Instant gratification isn't fast enough.

;)

sketchbook
04-24-2006, 02:47 PM
true.

wow. over 1000 posts. that's crazy. i must really like it here.

lllab
04-24-2006, 04:39 PM
Please see the new thread about the annoucemnt:-)

cheers
Stefan

sunmade
04-24-2006, 06:24 PM
Here's the Link to the announcment, just in case...

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=349805&page=1&pp=15#post3483589