The Taming Of Smeagol: Andy Serkis Interview

[gio]

"We lead a very thankless job......but i still have hope that ONE DAY we will be acknowledged by the public for the hard work we put forth!!!
One of my worst fears was realized the other day though....i was with a non-animator friend talking about gollum and talking about how much time and work went into him and she said, but i thought it was just some guy in a motion capture suit acting it all out.
Thats really almost as bad as..........whats so hard about animation, the computer does all the work. "

=====================================


When I think of thankless jobs, I think of individuals who
work as firemen, teachers, garbage men, etc. You make it sound as if we, the unsung 3D folks, should one day be recognized for
the work that we do...work that makes the world
a better place to live in. What other industry lets you wear flip
flops and hawaiian shirts to work while having your daily 3 o'clock
Quake or Unreal break?
You cannot find a larger group of immature and spoiled brats (me
included) under one roof as in a post production/videogame/dot.com facility. Yes, thankless indeed!

I'm sorry, but making 3D jobs more important than what it truly
is kinda gets to me. In the bigger scheme of things, what
we do, albeit VERY fun and cool, is indeed very shallow. I realize that and take it as it is. I try not to worry about getting
props from the laymen regarding how much work I put into
the vertex tweaks I did for a particular CGI character on screen.

Now dont get me wrong and think that I am one of those jaded
industry people who take things for granted. I am in fact
quite the opposite. I still have to pinch myself every single
day to see if I'm really working on cool monsters, CGI, and
all that crazy stuff...I am the ultimate fanboy working on the ultimate job (for me at least). That I guess is what should be the most fulfilling part: to work on stuff that you love to work on. If you want public acknowledgment, try writing a novel
or something?

G

[Gentle Fury]

well i agree and i disagree

i LOVE doing 3D and that in and of itself is a wonderful thing.........but you say what we do is frivolous and doesnt add anything in the grand scheme of things..........

well couldnt the same be said about ANY gear in the film making machine???? Ive never seen an actor pull a baby from a burning building. Nor a director, producer, musician, camera DP, or any other people that are praised and held on a high pedistal every year at awards like the oscars, the emmys and the golden globes.

yes i am very grateful to be a part of something that is so fun its more like playing then working half the time........but we are no more important in the role of entertainment then the film "Heroes" everyone loves and knows by name. True we arent saving the world or anything, but we ARE contributing a BIG role in making it a lot more entertaining.......as big if not moreso then the meat puppets involved.

Everyone sees the pretty CG characters on screen and the most they will reply is......hey, wasnt that character made on a computer? So, in turn, the canvas is all that gets credit for the hard work of sometimes hundreds of artists.

so no, i dont think we deserve the honor and respect of Firefighters and teachers and police officers......but i do think we deserve the same respect and recognition as the other people that are in the spotlite.

I think even an award for best character animation team would be a major step in the right direction.

when its all said and done, it really has nothing to do with the glory or recognition, but wouldnt it be nice??

[gio]

"well couldnt the same be said about ANY gear in the film making machine???? Ive never seen an actor pull a baby from a burning building. Nor a director, producer, musician, camera DP, or any other people that are praised and held on a high pedistal every year at awards like the oscars, the emmys and the golden globes. "
===========

Yes, exact same thing can be said about the other branches
of filmaking. I guess my overall view pretty much
encapsulates the entire filmaking biz -Hollywood.


===================
"Everyone sees the pretty CG characters on screen and the most they will reply is......hey, wasnt that character made on a computer? So, in turn, the canvas is all that gets credit for the hard work of sometimes hundreds of artists.

so no, i dont think we deserve the honor and respect of Firefighters and teachers and police officers......but i do think we deserve the same respect and recognition as the other people that are in the spotlite.

I think even an award for best character animation team would be a major step in the right direction. "
=======================


Yes, you do have a really good point there regarding
us being a part of a really big canvas. I do agree with you
on that. If Andy Serkis as Gollum does indeed get a nomnation
for his role of Gollum, I do think that similar recognition has
to go to the other people that took part in that creature's
creation too. Unfortunately, since the Oscars focuses
much more on actors and less on the technical side of things,
that might never happen. For us 'behind the pixel' technical folks, we'll have
other venues to gain recognition. Theres always SIGGRAPH,
IMAGICA, etc, so its no real big loss if the Academy refuses
to rectify that.

With all the stuff happening in the world today, I guess I try
to put less importance to the things that matter less.
Its true that the gift of entertainment is a good thing. We
are in this business to entertain. Its quite unfortunate that
this very business we are in also exists to drive products sometimes for the main puropose of making money first, and
then entertaining people second.

G

[AJE]

Serkis "It isn't just coming from me - although it is coming from me - it's being massaged by other people, and not just the director. "


This is the credit you are looking for. Although he does seem to take a lot for himself.

I think the even the possibility of giving a 'Best Supporting Actor' Oscar to Andy is rediculas. They'd have to give it to everyone who had a hand in Gollum's performance... which means it would equate to an army of individuals against the other nominees who rely on themselves and possibly an acting coach. It would be unjust to those who act.
(Maybe a 'Best CG Character' award would be appropriate, but there isn't really enough competition in each year yet... and even that would have to go to the entire team...)


Serkis "The way I look at it is: It's an acted role. I created the voice and the physicality and it's not latex stuck all over my face, it's pixels. It's like wearing virtual prosthetics.

Sorry Andy, I'm afraid it's a little more than that...

[Chewey]

Originally posted by gio
"We lead a very thankless job......but i still have hope that ONE DAY we will be acknowledged by the public for the hard work we put forth!!!
One of my worst fears was realized the other day though....i was with a non-animator friend talking about gollum and talking about how much time and work went into him and she said, but i thought it was just some guy in a motion capture suit acting it all out.
Thats really almost as bad as..........whats so hard about animation, the computer does all the work. "

=====================================


When I think of thankless jobs, I think of individuals who
work as firemen, teachers, garbage men, etc. You make it sound as if we, the unsung 3D folks, should one day be recognized for
the work that we do...work that makes the world
a better place to live in. What other industry lets you wear flip
flops and hawaiian shirts to work while having your daily 3 o'clock
Quake or Unreal break?
You cannot find a larger group of immature and spoiled brats (me
included) under one roof as in a post production/videogame/dot.com facility. Yes, thankless indeed!

I'm sorry, but making 3D jobs more important than what it truly
is kinda gets to me. In the bigger scheme of things, what
we do, albeit VERY fun and cool, is indeed very shallow. I realize that and take it as it is. I try not to worry about getting
props from the laymen regarding how much work I put into
the vertex tweaks I did for a particular CGI character on screen.

Now dont get me wrong and think that I am one of those jaded
industry people who take things for granted. I am in fact
quite the opposite. I still have to pinch myself every single
day to see if I'm really working on cool monsters, CGI, and
all that crazy stuff...I am the ultimate fanboy working on the ultimate job (for me at least). That I guess is what should be the most fulfilling part: to work on stuff that you love to work on. If you want public acknowledgment, try writing a novel
or something?

G

So true. Some people need to get a sense of perspective. The average Joe could care less about pixel pushing and the trailing credits.

[Gentle Fury]

Originally posted by Chewey
So true. Some people need to get a sense of perspective. The average Joe could care less about pixel pushing and the trailing credits.

If you read my above post you would see that i already addressed my views on that.

they may not in your opinion care about pixel pushing and trailing credits.......but they sure as hell seem to care about who brad pitt is sleeping with, or wynnona ryder shoplifting, and Angelina Jolie's tits.

to say that the entertainment busniess means nothing to the average joe is simple ignorant.

[Gentle Fury]

Originally posted by gio
"well couldnt the same be said about ANY gear in the film making machine???? Ive never seen an actor pull a baby from a burning building. Nor a director, producer, musician, camera DP, or any other people that are praised and held on a high pedistal every year at awards like the oscars, the emmys and the golden globes. "
===========

Yes, exact same thing can be said about the other branches
of filmaking. I guess my overall view pretty much
encapsulates the entire filmaking biz -Hollywood.


===================
"Everyone sees the pretty CG characters on screen and the most they will reply is......hey, wasnt that character made on a computer? So, in turn, the canvas is all that gets credit for the hard work of sometimes hundreds of artists.

so no, i dont think we deserve the honor and respect of Firefighters and teachers and police officers......but i do think we deserve the same respect and recognition as the other people that are in the spotlite.

I think even an award for best character animation team would be a major step in the right direction. "
=======================


Yes, you do have a really good point there regarding
us being a part of a really big canvas. I do agree with you
on that. If Andy Serkis as Gollum does indeed get a nomnation
for his role of Gollum, I do think that similar recognition has
to go to the other people that took part in that creature's
creation too. Unfortunately, since the Oscars focuses
much more on actors and less on the technical side of things,
that might never happen. For us 'behind the pixel' technical folks, we'll have
other venues to gain recognition. Theres always SIGGRAPH,
IMAGICA, etc, so its no real big loss if the Academy refuses
to rectify that.

With all the stuff happening in the world today, I guess I try
to put less importance to the things that matter less.
Its true that the gift of entertainment is a good thing. We
are in this business to entertain. Its quite unfortunate that
this very business we are in also exists to drive products sometimes for the main puropose of making money first, and
then entertaining people second.

G


excellant points and i agree completely :beer:

[Chewey]

Originally posted by Gentle Fury
If you read my above post you would see that i already addressed my views on that.

they may not in your opinion care about pixel pushing and trailing credits.......but they sure as hell seem to care about who brad pitt is sleeping with, or wynnona ryder shoplifting, and Angelina Jolie's tits.

to say that the entertainment busniess means nothing to the average joe is simple ignorant.

The average Joe doesn't care about pixel pushing and the trailer credits. To morph that statement into

"the entertainment busniess means nothing to the average joe"

is intellectually dishonest.(bad spelin too!)

Too bad.

[Gentle Fury]

ok, well then your post was completely off the conversation......i said that the average person doesnt know much about the people that work behind the CG which is now becoming as important if not moreso then the actors.

im saying we deserve the same recognition as everyone else, and your idea of a valid point is just, noone cares about pixel pushers.

that added nothing to the conversation.

please read all that has been said before attempting to start an argument on no ground.

[Chewey]

My point was short, sweet and relevant but alas, there's always someone who doesn't get it and not surprisingly you get the award.

Why do you feel you deserve the so called "same" recognition"? And who is this "everyone else" you refer to? The food caterers?

And why do you include yourself in this as if you personally had anything to do with these productions to begin with?

Do you have a clear and coherant point?
Or is this just a basic whiney, meandering bitch fest?

Nevermind, I really couldn't care less.

;>

[jschleifer]

Actually,I'm rather enjoying Gentle fury's responses.. :)

I think his point is this:

An actor plays a major role in a production. He/she does a fantastic job. People heap praise on the actor saying, wow! great work! I really believed you! That actor feels good about their work.

an actor plays a major role in a production. That role is also played by a team of animators. Both the actor AND the animators (and motion editors and lighters and riggers) create the single character which comes across. They do a fantastic job. People heap praise on the ACTOR saying "wow! great work! I really believed you" That actor feels good about their work.

hopefully, this makes sense to those of you trying to distort his argument.
-jason

[Chewey]

I understand what you've posted Jason, however Furry's post's tend to meander while yours are right to the point. My post was just to agree with and reinforce Gio's post.

I'm sure that the makeup artists and other supporting technical people would also like to get their pats on the back as well. However as in most occupations the guys doing the "detail" work get little if any recognition.

The average Joe doesn't care about the pixel pushing and few bother sitting throught the ending credits.

It's a fact.

[gio]

Originally posted by Chewey
My point was short, sweet and relevant but alas, there's always someone who doesn't get it and not surprisingly you get the award.

Why do you feel you deserve the so called "same" recognition"? And who is this "everyone else" you refer to? The food caterers?

And why do you include yourself in this as if you personally had anything to do with these productions to begin with?

Do you have a clear and coherant point?
Or is this just a basic whiney, meandering bitch fest?

Nevermind, I really couldn't care less.

;>

Please stop fanning the flames. Its not my intention to
go on a full out argument here in this forum. While I do
not agree with Gentle Fury's first post regarding the
"thankless job" thing, I do respect his views. I might
have come across as quite agressive at first, and for that
I apologize. In any case, all that you have said is completely
off base and contributes very little to the current discussion.
This thread is supposed to be for the Andy Serkis article, so I
guess I better shut up and let yall talk about the interview
rather than stretching this on. There, I've said my final piece...
~fin~

G

here be some links:
www.movkup.com
www.psychoform.com

[Chewey]

quote:

While I do not agree with Gentle Fury's first post regarding the "thankless job" thing, I do respect his views. I might have come across as quite agressive at first, and for that
I apologize. In any case, all that you have said is completely off base and contributes very little to the current discussion. This thread is supposed to be for the Andy Serkis article, so ...

end of quote:

Yeah, shame on me for agreeing with what you said
which you now claim to be "completely off base and contributes very little to the current discussion." Wtf was I thinking?

rotflmao!!!

p.s. Very cool sculpture work!

[Gentle Fury]

anyway, its a pretty cool article eh?

and thanx jason for trying to clear up what i was saying.....i got what you meant and you meant what i said i meant you meant......right?

im confused now. :)

peace all.....love ya to pieces!

[dobermunk]

Originally posted by jschleifer
an actor plays a major role in a production. That role is also played by a team of animators. Both the actor AND the animators (and motion editors and lighters and riggers) create the single character which comes across. They do a fantastic job. People heap praise on the ACTOR saying "wow! great work! I really believed you" That actor feels good about their work.

I think the "ElephantMan" precedent is a good pod for this issue: we're talking about public awareness, after all and most people (even award decision makers) don't understand the steps in the cg process.

I imagine the visual of the Elephant Man as a major element of the figure's emotional presence. But Hurt is nominated, not the designers, the prosthetics-guys or make-up people. A CG Smeagol is interesting because (from what I've read) there is a concrete actor performance and a cg translation. The question in the awards-process is what is being nminated - the creative interpretation and execution of the character or the technical execution (in this case including wonderfully expressive animation).

And also keep in mind: Only recently have script-writers started getting nominations and awards next to the directors!

I hope Smeagol gets nominated for an award, because then the animators and cg artists will also get a bit of the spotlight and the branch will get some overall awareness.

[Jhonus]

Originally posted by jschleifer
hopefully, this makes sense to those of you trying to distort his argument.
-jason

aaaahhh - kneeee - maaay - toooore ?

[Rogue]

I think it would be interesting to see if the same hype were to come from this if there was no CG Gollum and it was all Andy Serkis' performance.

Without seeing his original performance, no one can speculate. However, something is telling me there wouldn't be nearly as much 'talk' of Gollum if he wasn't a CG creation.

And on the note of not getting credit...well, all the animators and effects artists names are in the credits. They just don't get the media push. It's hard to sell 40 faces where as it's pretty easy to sell one.

BTW, everyone I've talked to about the movie has stated Gollum was awesome, not 'Andy Serkis' performance' was awesome. I'd take that as all the credit I needed if I was one of the animators that worked on Gollum. :)

[Gentle Fury]

Originally posted by Rogue
I think it would be interesting to see if the same hype were to come from this if there was no CG Gollum and it was all Andy Serkis' performance.

Without seeing his original performance, no one can speculate. However, something is telling me there wouldn't be nearly as much 'talk' of Gollum if he wasn't a CG creation.

And on the note of not getting credit...well, all the animators and effects artists names are in the credits. They just don't get the media push. It's hard to sell 40 faces where as it's pretty easy to sell one.

BTW, everyone I've talked to about the movie has stated Gollum was awesome, not 'Andy Serkis' performance' was awesome. I'd take that as all the credit I needed if I was one of the animators that worked on Gollum. :)

a very good point :)

[ilasolomon]

same things happen to feature animated films, medias interview the actors who talk as the main characters not animators or designers. everybody knows tom hanks was talking for woody, but who knows who were the key animators or character creators or modelers? :) they also are not in backstage films,
they are ignored, you see only famous faces of directors or voice-actors, maybe sometimes just an animation supervisor!
that's a common thing in the industry, SHOW BUISINESS.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by ila_solomon
same things happen to feature animated films, medias interview the actors who talk as the main characters not animators or designers. everybody knows tom hanks was talking for woody, but who knows who were the key animators or character creators or modelers? :) they also are not in backstage films,
they are ignored, you see only famous faces of directors or voice-actors, maybe sometimes just an animation supervisor!
that's a common thing in the industry, SHOW BUISINESS.



A good point, but the same could be said about ANY animated movie. Think... Lion King, Beauty and The Beast, hell even Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron (sp?), I can name actors in each but animators, designers... uh... nope, not a one (but that's just me, I'm sure someone can.)

My two cents is this:
Andy Serkis does a brilliant performance, with his voice and his body. Anyone who's seen the behind the scenes clip where he rolls through the river after a fish (an imaginary fish for him the actor) can attest to his physical presence in the film.

However, the entire crew of people responsible for creating Gollum, from the motion capture TD's to the lighting design to the rigging to the guy that textured his left index fingernail, did an equally amazing job in creating in my opinion the best cg character in film history hands down, and deserve an equal amount of recognition.

So, yes Serkis should take some credit for the voice, physicallity, and overall performance. But if he gets nominated and wins, he better damn well mention the slew of people that worked on that character just as much as he did.

(on a personal note, this past semester was my first experience with mocap, and GOD, do I have respect for the people that deal with this on a daily basis. Talk about dealing with headaches, holy shit.)

Sincerely,

Neal Holman

[Gentle Fury]

(on a personal note, this past semester was my first experience with mocap, and GOD, do I have respect for the people that deal with this on a daily basis. Talk about dealing with headaches, holy shit.)

exactly!

and for some reason, most people that dont know about it think its the easiest way to animate!! lol

[twidup]

GF,

lol, man I wish you could talk to our art directors sometimes....

"you wanna capture 3 guys at the same time , with 2 of them fighting and the other breaking it up????? ok yeah sure, it will be ready in a week"

mocap, while being a HUGE time save on somethings, is also a huge waste of time on others. The art directors and lead animators REALLY need to know whats going on, whats involved, and then determine if that shot would be faster to hand animate or mocap.

ugh, oh well, I am out of here soon ;)

-Todd

[derelict]

can anyone tell me where to get good pizza?

[MosaFacku]

Broadway Pizza.

Orlando, FL.

:xtreme:

[jtothec]

i'd like to give a unique perspective if i may. by day i'm an architectural viz person, by night i'm an off-broadway actor with 13+ years of experience.

i've been following this discussion with a great deal of curiosity as i think it's fair to say that with Gollum we are all being presented with a CG character that ceases to be a CG character within minutes of his being onscreen. and that's a new thing. it just hasn't happened before. the rules are changing before our eyes.

yes, there is realistic talk of Andy Serkis being nominated for his portrayal of Gollum and rightly so in my humble opinion. it's easily one of the best performances of the past few years.

my take on this is that we've arrived at a new place where the actor and the CG artists merge to create something that for the audience is a living, breathing character.

i think on some level we may be underestimating the audience in this instance - we're blown away by the humanity of Gollum AND we're blown away by the visualization of Gollum.

the modern audience is quite savvy when it comes to visual fx - we are the post Star Wars generation after all - and i think they are able to appreciate the artistry inherent in fx that transport.

my gut tells me that if Andy Serkis is nominated - and that's a real long shot, let's not forget that the academy is a very conservative institution primarily made up of actors - well then, Mr. Serkis will no doubt acknowledge and probably laud all those involved in the creation of Gollum.

LOTR is a different beast folks. it's a marriage of high tech and the time-honored traditions of classic theatre... and it really works! from everything i've read from people who worked on the films this was a truly unique production - thousands of people united for a LONG time on a common goal.

that's a rare and beautiful thing and frankly rarely happens in any creative endeavor.

Gollum is Andy Serkis's and Jason's and Bay's and a bunch of other people and my gut tells me that all of those involved in Gollum's creation know that and are probably smiling just a wee bit to see us hash this out

anyways... my .02

the movie was brilliant

[DotPainter]

I think that one of the primary reasons that Mr. Serkis is getting credit is because of the fact that without him, Smeagol would not have had the personality and lifelike character that he had in the film. It is almost like saying that CG animation is not to the point where you could do something like gollum completely by hand. 3d is more than a sock puppet, driven mainly by the efforts of an offscreen actor as puppeteer. However, if used in such a fashion, the accolades will always go to the actor since the perception is that the actor is 90% of the performance AND for the academy, a human. Of course, it is hard to say why they chose to go mocap route, workflow issues, time constraints or technical issues, but the fact the used an actor speaks mounds actually and puts the technology (and the team who used it) on the back burner. If they were to make such a creature like this without a MOCAP actor, then CG would get the credit it deserves. Then again though, somehow I doubt that the credit would be in the form of an award for acting.... :scream: I think as someone else said, that the director and head honchos behind a production have to have the confidence that CG alone can produce the character of something like gollum, without any help from a human actor. I also think, that this was a watershed event for CG and 3d effects, in that with or without MOCAP, it will determine whether CG characters can and will be regarded in terms of acting or purely in terms of technical merit, ie the difference between an acting nomination versus a special effects nomination. However, I think that the fact than Mr. Serkis got nominated means that the CG part will only be honored in terms of FX and never in terms of acting, unless a human actor is involved.

[Gregwid]

Nice interview. Pay and most importantly self satifaction for your deeds on personal projects within group projects is enough reward. :thumbsup:

[derelict]

The question was on him and his experience. The key word here is him. Maybe someone else might like to interview him and redirect the questions on deep deep technical issues?

In short, get off his case.

If not happy, maybe someone else would like to interview the mocap people?

[pearson]

Originally posted by derelict
The question was on him and his experience. The key word here is him. Maybe someone else might like to interview him and redirect the questions on deep deep technical issues?

In short, get off his case.


You also have to remember that, at this point, he is fighting for that nomination. Every chance he gets, he's going to make a case for why he deserves to win. He can't afford to spread the credit around now, but hopefully he will, if he wins.

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