PDA

View Full Version : Autodesk axes MotionBuilder standard


Beamtracer
03-23-2006, 01:49 AM
Bad news for users of the character animation software, MotionBuilder standard (formerly from Kaydara, and then Alias).

Autodesk has axed it.

Now only the pro version will be available, at a cost of over US $4000.

Quote taken from the Luxology forum:
Some FYI info. I panicked when I heard about them dropping basic Motion Builder. I was just finishing a budget for a TV series and we start the pilot next week. Well I called up to find out what was going on. Knowing what Autodesk can be like I was afraid they were getting ready to drop Maya Complete and increase the price on Maya Unlimited. I talked to a rep for almost an hour and got the low down. They just had a meeting about all this and none of the pricing is going to change for the foreseeable future. The joke was they dropped Motion Builder Basic because they didn't think there was much of a market.

So they claim.

Link to Autodesk website:
http://www.autodesk.com/motionbuilder

Quote from MacWorld review:
"MotionBuilder is priced starting at $4,195."
http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/03/21/motionbuilder/index.php

Larrikin
03-23-2006, 09:41 AM
Well v7 should still provide a good few years of use.
What's the bet MB standard will be incorporated into the next version of Maya?

mister3d
03-23-2006, 09:48 AM
Oh!Why?Whos next?

warpy
03-23-2006, 09:54 AM
wanna bet they have more of these horrible surprises coing up around the corner.

they are opening a big hole for other apps to fill. i can see how other animation software people will definitely try to nail the standart low-mid range priced packages hole they left.

benwatt
03-23-2006, 10:00 AM
I really hope this isn't the case (the Autodesk site doesn't exactly confirm a Standard Edition definitely won't exist). Been using MB since version 4.0 - I'm not going to pay that kind of money just to go from 7.0 Stanard to 7.5 or beyond.

I believe when version 7.0 came out, the Standard Edition wasn't mentioned at first - possibly the same is happening with version 7.5?

Julez4001
03-23-2006, 10:10 AM
wanna bet they have more of these horrible surprises coing up around the corner.

they are opening a big hole for other apps to fill. i can see how other animation software people will definitely try to nail the standart low-mid range priced packages hole they left.

cough* Character Studio** repricing ** cough**

Beamtracer
03-23-2006, 10:15 AM
This post from the Maxon forum:

Hi all, just come off the phone from Autodesk/Alias. I have been trying to upgrade to Motionbuilder standart 7.5 but I was informed that Autodesk is not going to contnue with the Standart and only sell the Pro version.

I'm a bit upset about this.

I bought MotionBuilder standard. I only needed the standard edition. I don't need the 'Pro' features, and am not prepared to pay around $4000 for the pro version.

I wish Kaydara would have held onto it. Their price was low. And if they had a special on you could often get it even cheaper. No more, sad to say.

DMack
03-23-2006, 11:41 AM
Hey Beam, why not look into messiah animate? You can pick it up for a very reasonable price and for Character work it really is VERY good. It's just been upgraded to version 5.4. With Point Oven Pro, it connects really well to Lightwave (and a bunch of others).

colkai
03-23-2006, 11:48 AM
Bad news for users of the character animation software, MotionBuilder standard (formerly from Kaydara, and then Alias).

Autodesk has axed it.

Now only the pro version will be available, at a cost of over US $4000.

Colour me surprised....NOT!

Could see the writing on the wall long ago, that's why I never upgraded. With each revision, the took something out of STD and put it in PRO. Same with the so called FBX standard, except it wasn't, and was blocked left right and center so it only really fully worked with their software. Their forums and support were not a patch on Kaydaras too. I'm sure eventually they'll add a "support" charge to access forums for it so they can stiff people out of even more money.

At least Kaydaras MB5 is good enough for me to continue what I need to do for now.

Alias, taking software out of the masses and putting in the hands of the elite few!

(Can you tell I'm pi**ed off? ;) ).

I wish Kaydara would have held onto it. Their price was low. And if they had a special on you could often get it even cheaper.
You're talking my language there! :)

edit: I notice they now no longer talk about FBX being a standard for working but a native format.

Kabab
03-23-2006, 11:53 AM
Maybe they will put most of standard functionality in Maya.

Jake-L
03-23-2006, 01:32 PM
Maybe they will put most of standard functionality in Maya.

Yeah? In the light of Autodesk policy, a huge price hike seems more likely.
Prepare to get screwed......:eek:

thomaspecht
03-23-2006, 01:42 PM
sucks to hear about MB. but it seemed like it had lost the edge when alias purchased the company and made it part of their product lineup.

wasn't there the rumour (yeah, well, i know) that autodesk would get rid of maya complete or lift it's price noticeably? sounds believable because they sure as hell don't want the film and "high-end" solution to eat into max sales because of the lower license fee.

ah well, back to work...

mummey
03-23-2006, 02:01 PM
You people will believe anything... :rolleyes:

Until Autodesk announces that they are discontinuing support for MotionBuilder Standard (which I doubt) I suggest you leave your pitchforks and torches alone.

DoomGen
03-23-2006, 02:05 PM
I've just had conformation from my reseller that standard has been axed

mummey
03-23-2006, 02:08 PM
Note: Autodesk is in the middle of a transition right now. This has meant that they are moving Alias' site over to their own and still keep as much working as possible. This had already meant that the Community part of Alias' site was down until Autodesk could get it back up again.

Given this, I would give Autodesk the benefit of the doubt, rather than believe Beamtracer and start screaming "The Sky is Falling!!" :eek:

Get a grip people.
-b

RangTang
03-23-2006, 02:31 PM
There just isn't enough money to be made from low end character animation packages.
Look at the history:
Poser- all effort goes into rendering, IK animation features aren't so good and have seen little improvement.
Lifeform- great FK poor IK, has seen little animation improvement (editing of rig has seen features added).
Messiah- most effort now focus on rendering, no support for import/export of rig from base program.
The only programs that have good development of figure animation are the high-end programs Maya and XSI, with Max as a gaming alternative. What makes a program high-end isn't just being listed on highend.com but custom scripting for control of program and animation. What makes the cost high isn't the program cost but the maintenance cost. Max which has a high front end cost is actually one of the cheaper programs when considering maintenance cost. Most people with Maya Complete just skip maintenance and repurchase. For Maya this works because the rigging tools have been so good since version 4.
How many Maya and XSI users purchase either MotionBuilder, Lifeforms, or Messiah? Probably not that many. AutoDesk has kept Combustion as an affordable program because they sell enough copies, MotionBuilder is a niche product that doesn't pay to keep in the lower price range.
I'm not defending AutoDesk, they're corporate shills who care more about the $ than the customer. I saw a presentation of Maya put on by AutoDesk and the difference from Alias was dramatic, very corporate marketing department driven.

deepcgi
03-23-2006, 05:22 PM
I'd say Maya Complete is next, actually. If you get rid of Complete and lower the price of Unlimited you are pushing Maya towards film specialization while still raising the price for the game companies that are using Complete.

richcz3
03-23-2006, 06:38 PM
I don't use Max, Maya, Motion Builder but I can say I feel Autodesk bought Maya to level out the 3D market. Of course if I was a Maya user I would be livid, but this is after all a business.
The costs of development vs the gains in revenue have to add up.

If this news is true this will open up niche markets for new developers to fill the gaps. We've all seen the influx of innovative new modeling packages. Why not character animation? About the only problem I see is pipelines that act/look more like centipedes. Import/export de jour. The word "Integrated" feels so 1990.

pixelmonk
03-23-2006, 08:08 PM
Note: Autodesk is in the middle of a transition right now. This has meant that they are moving Alias' site over to their own and still keep as much working as possible. This had already meant that the Community part of Alias' site was down until Autodesk could get it back up again.

Given this, I would give Autodesk the benefit of the doubt, rather than believe Beamtracer and start screaming "The Sky is Falling!!" :eek:

Get a grip people.
-b

Did you miss the part where someone else said their AD vendor just said it was axed?

Get a pair of glasses, people.
-p

pixelmonk
03-23-2006, 08:09 PM
I'd say Maya Complete is next, actually. If you get rid of Complete and lower the price of Unlimited you are pushing Maya towards film specialization while still raising the price for the game companies that are using Complete.

Gasp... Autodesk wants you to use Max for games!!

:)

colkai
03-23-2006, 08:20 PM
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7028357&linkID=6761598
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=7038402&linkID=6761620

Pretty self-explanatory. Either you have the PLE, or you pay $4000+

Pricing and Availability

Autodesk MotionBuilder 7.5 is now available to MotionBuilder Platinum Members. The software is expected to become available worldwide in late March 2006. Autodesk MotionBuilder 7.5 suggested retail pricing (SRP), including one year of Platinum Membership, remains unchanged from version 7. Autodesk MotionBuilder 7.5 (node-locked) SRP is US $4,195 * and Autodesk MotionBuilder 7.5 (floating) SRP is US $4,795 * in North America. MotionBuilder software is available for both the Windows and Mac OS X platforms.

Note, there is no PRO or STD, only PLE or 'Motionbuilder'. Also note how they cleverly avoid mentioning Std vs PRO in the FAQ, again only PRO vs PLE. Oops, sorry - my bad 'Motionbuilder' vs PLE. :p

rebo
03-23-2006, 08:26 PM
Absolutely no surprise here at all. This was a given once autodesk bought alias. MB technology will be raided and incorporated into max and maya with FBX being an intertransfer file format.

Bael
03-23-2006, 08:28 PM
If they're willing to scrap MB Standard theres no doubt in my mind Maya Complete is next on the chopping block. :/

Kabab
03-23-2006, 11:31 PM
Why would they chop Maya Complete?? I think they will increase the price (justified imho) but why would they axe a product that sells so well?

Larrikin
03-24-2006, 03:56 AM
Why would they chop Maya Complete??

Because Autodesk aren't into multiple tiered versions. They don't do it with Max.
I think just marketing one version of Maya and Max will be confusing enough.

RockinAkin
03-24-2006, 04:15 AM
:shrug:

I remember at Siggraph 2005's Alias User Group meeting, the guy behind motion builder came out and during his presentation asked for a show of hands of how many people in the audience used motion builder... and only 1 or 2 people raised their hand in the audience of hundreds.

Sucks if you're one of those one or two people I guess. :D

ThE_JacO
03-24-2006, 05:32 AM
I don't use Max, Maya, Motion Builder but I can say I feel Autodesk bought Maya to level out the 3D market.

autodesk DID NOT buy Maya, they bought ALIAS, and they bought Alias because of Studio (where alias made 80% of their cash) and eventually to fiddle with motionbuilder and trying to get a stranglehold on mocap heavy setups, like games using max and... ops... character studio.

Maya is an unfortunate side-product that autodesk probably would have gladly left out of the business if they could get a discount on the whole price.

do you really think the actual all-in-one 3Dapps market makes that mcuh money for autodesk to give a flying damn about it? Tunnel-vision anybody?

Flog
03-24-2006, 05:40 AM
and that is why I hate these programs, making 3d out of the hands of everyone except the well off.

People do great work with it, but I would never touch it. They like to make things more expensive.

Man I remember when motionbuilder was 600 bucks
As soon as they got a hold of it, bam!! 4,000

Bleh, on them.

Kabab
03-24-2006, 05:49 AM
autodesk DID NOT buy Maya, they bought ALIAS, and they bought Alias because of Studio (where alias made 80% of their cash) and eventually to fiddle with motionbuilder and trying to get a stranglehold on mocap heavy setups, like games using max and... ops... character studio.

Maya is an unfortunate side-product that autodesk probably would have gladly left out of the business if they could get a discount on the whole price.

do you really think the actual all-in-one 3Dapps market makes that mcuh money for autodesk to give a flying damn about it? Tunnel-vision anybody?
Go to a Maya event then a StudioTools event and you tell me which event has more users.

BillB
03-24-2006, 06:02 AM
If you live in New Zealand (and probably anywhere else in the world) the price of Maya already went up. We used to be able to buy it for the $US price converted to $NZ, but since the Autodesk aquisition my dealer tells me that's out the door. Which meant a 20% price hike the last licence I bought.

If they killed Complete or hiked the price too far, we'd be on XSI like white on rice. Not that I think they will, they're not idiots.

enygma
03-24-2006, 06:49 AM
If they killed Complete or hiked the price too far, we'd be on XSI like white on rice. Not that I think they will, they're not idiots.
Or are they...

Dun dun duuuuuuuun (in a dramatic tone)

beaker
03-24-2006, 07:55 AM
If they killed Complete or hiked the price too far, we'd be on XSI like white on rice. Not that I think they will, they're not idiots.For new users, sure, but for existing users, it's a little harder. People have time invested in their own training, knowledge and competence in Maya. One doesn't just jump ship. It takes a few years.

Anyways, many of us paid 40k for Maya, so 2k for Complete has been heaven for the last few years. Also if we get the free render nodes for MR like 3dsmax, then only having unlimited isn't that bad. XSI render lics still cost $1k per node($2k for 64 bit node).

One thing I could see happening if they do decide to kill Complete is lower 3dsmax to $2k and lower Unlimited to something like $4-5k. The biggest trouble right now is according to Autodesk, 3dsmax is their "lowend" product for games and Maya is their highend for film. Well in marketing it isn't usually good to have your advertised "lowend" product, costing more then your highend one (max is currently US$3.5k I believe).

char_animator
03-24-2006, 08:47 AM
Go to a Maya event then a StudioTools event and you tell me which event has more users.

How much is Maya? $2000.
How much is Alias Auto Studio? $65,000 Studio? $28750 + Maintenances are more than $4,000/year.


A LOT of people who goes to Maya events are "unregistered" user or "students". The number of people is meaningless.

Alias was originally a "CAD company". Their flagship product always have been Studio Tools not Maya.

If you were a CEO of Autodesk, would you kill "have-been-profitable-my-own-child" or "never-been-profitable-step-child"?

You don't know actual number, but Autodesk knows the numbers. If the number show "loss", Autodesk surely kill the pruduct. If not so, they will keep. They decided to kill MutionBuilder Standard because of "the number". Let's see what will happen to Maya.

deepcgi
03-24-2006, 10:49 AM
Studio Tools prices are higher for a variety of reasons. One of which is because it has fewer but more specialized users that require exacting specs and support - just like the animation business in the 1990s. Maya is still Max's main competitor. Of course they wanted Maya. It's the same reason Apple bought Logic instead of Digital Performer. Logic ran on Windows. They acquired the users and killed a competitor in one shot. Now, Autodesk needs to make marketing sense of the product line or they won't pull in new users. Alias product line stuff for industrial design and film and Autodesk product line stuff for games and architecture is clean. Kill Complete and lower the price of Unlimited a bit and you do just that. If the users start to buy that line, then you can start consolidating the development staff and save a ton of money. It's neither good nor bad, it's just a prediction.

beaker
03-24-2006, 12:09 PM
How much is Maya? $2000.
How much is Alias Auto Studio? $65,000 Studio? $28750 + Maintenances are more than $4,000/year.Well Auto Studio isn't the only Studio Product. The modeling/design only package without all the engineering bits(Design Studio) is only $7500.

Also someone mentioned eariler that Studio was the money maker not Maya, well that was true 3-4 years ago, but not anymore. Alias' biggest customer was GM, well they haven't been doing too hot the last couple years. Only the Automotive companies buy the $65k version. All the product design companies stick with the cheaper Design Studio.

cem
03-24-2006, 12:24 PM
If you live in New Zealand (and probably anywhere else in the world) the price of Maya already went up. We used to be able to buy it for the $US price converted to $NZ, but since the Autodesk aquisition my dealer tells me that's out the door. Which meant a 20% price hike the last licence I bought.

If they killed Complete or hiked the price too far, we'd be on XSI like white on rice. Not that I think they will, they're not idiots.


Not in Australia the price has always been higher than the conversion rate, I priced buying Complete and Unlimited before even talks of the aquisition hit.
Complete was $3500 AUS compared to about $2700 for the coversion from US to AUS and Unlimited was $13000 AUS compared to about $9800 for the conversion.

I was able to get a couple of stockists down a little bit but they were nowhere near the conversion rates especially for Unlimited. Luckily I managed to to get into a training course only one of the few where I live and so ended up buying a student licence. But I'm dreading when my course finishes this year and I have to buy a commercial version.

ThirdEye
03-24-2006, 04:14 PM
Well Auto Studio isn't the only Studio Product. The modeling/design only package without all the engineering bits(Design Studio) is only $7500.

Also someone mentioned eariler that Studio was the money maker not Maya, well that was true 3-4 years ago, but not anymore. Alias' biggest customer was GM, well they haven't been doing too hot the last couple years. Only the Automotive companies buy the $65k version. All the product design companies stick with the cheaper Design Studio.

Sure but industrial design is surely a bigger niche than 3D, isn't it?

beaker
03-24-2006, 06:08 PM
Sure but industrial design is surely a bigger niche than 3D, isn't it?No I don't think it is. Roughly the same size. Depends if you count archviz.

Anticulturist
03-24-2006, 06:27 PM
I will keep my Kaydara V. 5.5, thank you.

Auto**** can keep theirs . 4k HAHAHAHA, they live on the planet Super-Rich...

opus13
03-24-2006, 07:35 PM
Because Autodesk aren't into multiple tiered versions. They don't do it with Max.
I think just marketing one version of Maya and Max will be confusing enough.

right. the names "flint, flame & inferno" dont ring any bells? multiple levels of revit? autocad LT vs. regular flavor? multiple flavors of land development/civ design?

if you look through their product catalog you'll see tons of tiered options. autodesk is ALL about tiers. it just so happens that max (currently) doesnt fit that plan. maya is a footnote to their product line. they will keep tiers as long as it generates revenue for them.. ince it doesnt, thats when the catalog gets simplified.

talos72
03-24-2006, 08:35 PM
I figured you can break down the Alias market into the entertainment companies (FX/animation houses), companies that buy Studio for product design (car, appliances, etc.), and then you have the end-users (some who post on this forum). Now, you can guess that in actuality, the licenses acquired by the film industry is probably a fraction of licenses bought by companies who use Studio for CAD purposes. We, here are specifically focused on entertainment elements of the CG industry and we assume that is the biggest market for graphics software. In actuality, there is a likelihood that Alias is probably making most of its money from Studio/ CAD users.

No we have the end-user market, the regular folks. My guess is more Maya licenses are bought by end-users versus licenses of Studio. Most end-users can't afford Studio nor are they interested in CAD softwares, unless they are industrial design pros or students (most probably aren't). I don't have numbers to back up my hunches, but it would be cool if there was a chart of Alias market breakdown. I assume such a chart is proprietary.

robcat2075
03-24-2006, 09:22 PM
I'm not a motion builder user but when I go to their site and watch their demos (the things they themsleves are representing as special powers of their program) i have to say to myself "huh? Animation:Master has been doing that with character animation for years. And with a better interface."

It may well be that MB has great power unknown to any other app, but they aren't promoting it well. And if it doesn't... well, what's the point?

Beamtracer
03-24-2006, 10:14 PM
I will keep my Kaydara V. 5.5, thank you.

Auto**** can keep theirs . 4k HAHAHAHA, they live on the planet Super-Rich...
If you plan to keep your old Kaydara 5.5, make sure you archive any updates that you previously downloaded, as they may not be available any more.

Also, keep the computer it's loaded upon. It may be registered to that computer, and Autodesk may not help you move it on another computer. Also, don't update that computer for future OSes, as MB 5.5 may not work on them.

Nichod
03-24-2006, 10:19 PM
Big difference between A:M and Motionbuilder. You can take a scene from maya and bring it into motionbuilder. Then take that scene and bring it into xsi and then back into maya. A:M is pretty stuck into itself. Which is the most idiotic thing. If they just opened up a little bit and followed standards just a little bit, then they'd probally be a megarich company. A:M is lightyears ahead in animation then any other application, just can't exchange the data and the renderer is dead slow.

mummey
03-24-2006, 10:36 PM
Can A:M handle motion capture data? MB can handle a variety of system and receive input in many ways that other apps can't.

-b

Anticulturist
03-25-2006, 03:10 AM
Thanks for advice Beamtracer. Yeah MB is keyed on a specific computer, I guess I'll stick with this one for another few years, and by the time when I'll have money to upgrade it, new soft will be on the market. I wanted to upgrade MB before but a lot of ppl said the following versions were having a lot of bugs, 5.5 is working good for what I need.

Beamtracer
03-25-2006, 06:09 AM
Thanks for advice Beamtracer. Yeah MB is keyed on a specific computer, I guess I'll stick with this one for another few years, and by the time when I'll have money to upgrade it, new soft will be on the market. I wanted to upgrade MB before but a lot of ppl said the following versions were having a lot of bugs, 5.5 is working good for what I need.
When they key software to a specific machine, then stop supporting that software, it puts users in a dilemma.

We can always keep a legacy computer around for years to come, just to run MotionBuilder Standard, but it's not very practical. MotionBuilder standard users really have to face reality start looking for some other replacement software.

Messiah is not cross platform.

Luxology this year will be developing a character animation suite that will run on Mac OS X, Windows and Linux. The question is how long will it take them to develop and release it. Something to keep an eye on, though.

Still, I'm very disappointed by the demise of MotionBuilder standard. Having bought it from Kaydara, along with all their training DVDs. I don't think too highly of Autodesk for purchasing it, and then axing it.

Digitalwool
03-25-2006, 08:18 AM
Autodesk should be careful not to price themselves out of the market.

beaker
03-25-2006, 08:59 AM
Still, I'm very disappointed by the demise of MotionBuilder standard. Having bought it from Kaydara, along with all their training DVDs. I don't think too highly of Autodesk for purchasing it, and then axing it.I'm sure they will give you a pretty inexpensive upgrade to Pro if you own standard.

BillB
03-25-2006, 09:20 PM
For new users, sure, but for existing users, it's a little harder. People have time invested in their own training, knowledge and competence in Maya. One doesn't just jump ship. It takes a few years. To be honest, that's a bit of a myth other than for the largest of studios. We switched from LW/messiah to Maya when a project came in that required it, took as long as it took to order the licences (and obviosuly retrain some animators, call it a month). If you're the size of Lucas or Pixar, sure, but if you've only got 20 crew or less, it certainly doesn't take "years", especially if several of them already know the new app. If the new app is more efficient, you end up with a gain (maya was a loss in animation speed, XSI I suspect would be a gain).

beaker
03-25-2006, 09:29 PM
What I was talking about is the decision takes a couple years, not the actual training or moving over. People like using what they know and most people can't and don't just make split decisions on going out and paying another 2k-7k per node when you just bought Maya or whatever your currently on only 2 years ago.

Also depending the work you do and how much in house staff you have, many people are busy with current projects. Not everyone has a month to take off and jump to another package. With your current package you know what works and what doesn't and your much more efficient at it. Moving to a new package, while the initial learning doesn't take much time, its all that other stuff inbetween that slows you down. Speed and knowing what buttons to push and which ones will bug out on you is just a matter of time. This is why when XSI and Maya first came out, it took 2-3 versions before most of the old Soft3d and Alias PA people moved over.

3DDave
03-25-2006, 10:34 PM
MB 6 standard is still currently being supported by Autodesk for installation onto a different computer.

Arcon
03-26-2006, 01:37 AM
If they killed Complete or hiked the price too far, we'd be on XSI like white on rice. Not that I think they will, they're not idiots.


I'm not so sure ;) Alias have done some nasty things to Complete customers in the past and I wouldn't put it past other companies like Autodesk to do the same. Obviously there'd be a huge amount of resentment towards Autodesk if they did axe Complete... so many smaller studios using it, yeah there'd be suicide bombings at local resellers.

Sux to hear about the licence prices here in NZ :(

the best thing that could happen IMO, that would keep Autodesk's users happy, is if they continue both product lines as they are for 2 years tops, while developing a super-cool >>> 64bit <<< 3D app which combined the best of both packages, kinda like Alias did with Maya coming from PowerAnimator/Dynamation (was that the Wavefront app..?). then maya AND max could fade into 32bit obscurity, as they should by 2008. I think XSI is technically superior to both products in a lot of ways... i just can't stand that interface.

Autodesk might want to try properly integrating a renderer into the next-gen product, hopefully some flavour of 64bit MR. Alias never quite got there with MR, and their native renderer seriously sucked. One good thing about the Maya's product coming to an end is seeing the back of that renderer :)

Kabab
03-26-2006, 11:37 AM
StudioTools is a NICHE tool....

In a typical design place they will have 1 seat of Studio for 3 seats of Solidworks or similar CAD system.

In the Automotive world Studio is used mainly as a conceptual design tool, GM and a few other use it for A-Class but particulary every other company uses icem.

All the big automotive companies have direct deals with Alias/Autodesk so you can bet they ain't paying that full price tag either.

Studio falls into industrial design / automotive..

Maya falls into more markets then i can list its not a niche tool anymore which was what the $2k complete stratergy was aimed at doing.

mummey
03-26-2006, 05:01 PM
StudioTools is a NICHE tool....

In a typical design place they will have 1 seat of Studio for 3 seats of Solidworks or similar CAD system.

In the Automotive world Studio is used mainly as a conceptual design tool, GM and a few other use it for A-Class but particulary every other company uses icem.

All the big automotive companies have direct deals with Alias/Autodesk so you can bet they ain't paying that full price tag either.

Studio falls into industrial design / automotive..

Maya falls into more markets then i can list its not a niche tool anymore which was what the $2k complete stratergy was aimed at doing.

Heh, you're fooling yourself.

There's ALOT more money in Studio Tools than in Maya. In fact, some consider Studio Tool's ability to import directly from Solid Works the primary reason Autodesk bought Alias (Solid Works competes directly with Autodesk Inventor).

lukep
03-26-2006, 07:19 PM
Heh, you're fooling yourself.

There's ALOT more money in Studio Tools than in Maya. In fact, some consider Studio Tool's ability to import directly from Solid Works the primary reason Autodesk bought Alias (Solid Works competes directly with Autodesk Inventor).

Still, Studio tools is a very minor actor in the CAD market. the estimation of 1 studio tools for 3 solidworks is imho very optimistic. All small to medium companies wont even consider it when choosing their CAD package.

and the fact inventor failed to attract customers is due to lack of Autodesk giving what their customers wanted in time. Now they have switched it is too late.

Solidworks, Pro/E and Catia (the latter mostly in europa) have now such a stronghold of key customers that were previously in autodesk hands, that there is very little chance Autodesk will return to the former glory of Autocad times. Other actors like Missler Topsolid are ahead too in specialized markets.

To make things worse for studio tools, Solidworks change its format at each release (1 per year) and its mother company (Dassault systemes) is also the editor of Catia which is a more direct competitor of ST in Automotive and Aerospace industries. So i wont bet the hability of ST to read native SW format is here to stay.

colkai
03-27-2006, 08:19 AM
If you plan to keep your old Kaydara 5.5, make sure you archive any updates that you previously downloaded, as they may not be available any more.

Also, keep the computer it's loaded upon. It may be registered to that computer, and Autodesk may not help you move it on another computer. Also, don't update that computer for future OSes, as MB 5.5 may not work on them.
Alas, I have to agree on all these points.
Given the route taken, seems to me that this is bound to be a case of "forcing hands" in the future. Of course, one of the side-effects will be to force peoples hands into dumping MB all together. Which is a shame as it IS a good package, just greedily marketed. :(

pixelmonk
03-27-2006, 03:07 PM
Alas, I have to agree on all these points.
Given the route taken, seems to me that this is bound to be a case of "forcing hands" in the future. Of course, one of the side-effects will be to force peoples hands into dumping MB all together. Which is a shame as it IS a good package, just greedily marketed. :(

better that AD's "Character Studio"

colkai
03-27-2006, 03:26 PM
better that AD's "Character Studio"
In all honesty, couldn't say as never used it. All I can say is it is very flexible and a doddle to use. Must be, I can use it! :p ;)

Flog
03-28-2006, 09:39 PM
Can A:M handle motion capture data? MB can handle a variety of system and receive input in many ways that other apps can't.

-mummey



It sure can, and it animates like a dream. It is easy, and I mean very easy to use and in some cases just as powerful as Maya and Motionbuilder.
Easy to animate with, captures motion if you want it, has hair, cloth and at a cheap price that any artist can afford. What more could you want? I think if it wanted to it could beat Maya except one thing....


Big difference between A:M and Motionbuilder. You can take a scene from maya and bring it into motionbuilder. Then take that scene and bring it into xsi and then back into maya. A:M is pretty stuck into itself. Which is the most idiotic thing. If they just opened up a little bit and followed standards just a little bit, then they'd probally be a megarich company. A:M is lightyears ahead in animation then any other application, just can't exchange the data and the renderer is dead slow.

-Nichod



Nichod hit it on the head. It does not work well with others. They believe everyman is an island or something. It's a nice island, but I hate modelling in splines, it is tooo sloooowwww!! What takes me 4 hours to model in A:M takes me 20 minutes in Zbrush, Wings, Modo, Hexagon 3d, Wings3d, etc. If you are using A:M you do not have options like with all the other programs. You pretty much just have to use A:M for everything!! That is the only reason I left this wonderful program. I don't want to model in it, it wastes my time. Great program but don't tell them to put polygons or a converter in their program or they'll get mad and tell you to go to MAYA or something. (Personal experience, learn from my mistakes, don't ask or complain about wanting to model in another program and better import options, splines are the only way for them.)

This problem is only my perception though, I think there is a weakness in modelling, but once modelled in splines, splines are great to animate with. That is where A:M shines. In the world of Animation, but unfortunately is it no also MODEL MASTER, it is Animation Master, but once you get to the animation part it is a breeze. But don't go in expecting to model in silo zbrush wings 3d, etc and move it to A:M. It just won't happen that way. But if you want a powerful program, don't mind modelling in splines, then this one is as powerful, in my opinion to Maya.

mummey
04-04-2006, 09:57 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=331081&page=2&pp=15

Beamtracer
04-04-2006, 10:46 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=331081&page=2&pp=15

Here's part of the quote from Autodesk:
"Discontinuing the MotionBuilder Standard product was not intended to alienate the MotionBuilder user base. Rather, the intent was to align a product configuration that’s sustainable and provides focused resources to develop new, innovative and exciting additions to the MotionBuilder product.


"With this change, we are extending a migration program to existing MotionBuilder Standard users who wish to upgrade to MotionBuilder 7.5. The program will be open to all users of MotionBuilder Standard versions 5, 5.5, 6 and 7. The cost of this migration program is $1995 and includes one year of Platinum Membership (a $695 value) which qualifies you for upgrades of the product at no charge. Platinum Membership provides you with a number of services, including Hotline support, access to training materials and Interactive Training Sessions. This migration program will run until August 18, 2006."

I'm not sure if that will attract many MB Standard users. It still costs multiples of times the price of what it used to be before Autodesk acquired it.

You people will believe anything... :rolleyes:

Until Autodesk announces that they are discontinuing support for MotionBuilder Standard (which I doubt) I suggest you leave your pitchforks and torches alone.
...
I would give Autodesk the benefit of the doubt, rather than believe Beamtracer

BTW... how long has it taken to get some kind of official word from Autodesk? If I had delayed posting this thread until an official Autodesk announcement, it would have been weeks.

It seems Autodesk has only bothered announced something after users became outraged.

Flog
04-05-2006, 04:40 PM
Wow what a great deal they are offering. That floors me when I see it, they act as if they are being so generous.

You know what if your going to be an evil greedy company just say so. I mean dang at least let people know what you are doing and that you don't care what they think.

We want more money, here is our crappy deal, hey it's better than 4 grand so be happy with it.

Yes they knew they were going to alienate the Standard user's, it wasn't their intent to do so, their intent was to make as much money they can before they die, but hey your poor and if you can't buy it who cares. We just wanted to make more $$$. It's not personal just business.

We at Autodesk like money, it's plain and simple. We do not care if we take CG out of the hands of common people. It should be only for big studios who can pay us a lot of money the first time.

Just be aware all, let's hope the big bad Boogie Desk keeps away from your beloved software.

Adobe Photoshop 4,000 oh wait but you can update it for 1,995

Zbrush what a wonderful tool it's worth 7,000 but act now and you can get it for 4,000

Silo 3d where slashing prices, get an update for only 1,000 dollars that's a saving of 2,000 dollars off the retail price of 3,000
Here at Autodesk we are slashing prices. Won't you be glad when we buy all the software companies.

It almost sounds better if Microsoft bought all the companies instead of them. Well that's cool, I don't like any of their products, MB excluded. I've always hated their business model and prices. I just hope they stay away from the products I use. I feel for some of you who got stuck with them after the buyout.

For MB users, you do have a "Messiah"

Tex3D
04-06-2006, 04:25 PM
Still, Studio tools is a very minor actor in the CAD market. the estimation of 1 studio tools for 3 solidworks is imho very optimistic. All small to medium companies wont even consider it when choosing their CAD package.

and the fact inventor failed to attract customers is due to lack of Autodesk giving what their customers wanted in time. Now they have switched it is too late.

Solidworks, Pro/E and Catia (the latter mostly in europa) have now such a stronghold of key customers that were previously in autodesk hands, that there is very little chance Autodesk will return to the former glory of Autocad times. Other actors like Missler Topsolid are ahead too in specialized markets.

To make things worse for studio tools, Solidworks change its format at each release (1 per year) and its mother company (Dassault systemes) is also the editor of Catia which is a more direct competitor of ST in Automotive and Aerospace industries. So i wont bet the hability of ST to read native SW format is here to stay.

Quoted for Agreement.. You basically just said everything I was thinking. Thanks for saving me the typing :cool:

DoomGen
04-07-2006, 10:06 AM
Just bought Motion Builder 7.5 as we want to do motion capture and Autodesk now only sell it with maintainence which puts another 455 on!!

almux
04-07-2006, 10:28 AM
sucks to hear about MB. but it seemed like it had lost the edge when alias purchased the company and made it part of their product lineup.

wasn't there the rumour (yeah, well, i know) that autodesk would get rid of maya complete or lift it's price noticeably? sounds believable because they sure as hell don't want the film and "high-end" solution to eat into max sales because of the lower license fee.

ah well, back to work...

Oh gosh... until now i was gathering monney to by Maya complete... but since Alias has been bought by a rather Mac non-friendly Autodesk... I wonder if I'm not gonna turn to C4D...

beaker
04-07-2006, 06:39 PM
Just bought Motion Builder 7.5 as we want to do motion capture and Autodesk now only sell it with maintainence which puts another 455 on!!You never have to buy maintainence, sales people like to make it sound like you do. Its a good idea though because then you get the upgrades with it (pays for itself).

charleyc
04-07-2006, 07:12 PM
Oh gosh... until now i was gathering monney to by Maya complete... but since Alias has been bought by a rather Mac non-friendly Autodesk... I wonder if I'm not gonna turn to C4D...

Right now (an for the near future) Autodesk is running off of the pre sale-development of both Maya and Max. I seriously doubt anything significant will change for the worse with these products in that time. Also, Autodesk is not Mac non-friendly per se. They do make products that work on Mac's. They do not make a version of Max that does. However, with the dual boot stuff that has just been announced, technically any win app will now have a Mac version. The AME Max forum has already stated they ran Max8 on a Mac running windows. I don't see anything that would scare me from purchasing either Max or Maya at this point. The worse case scenerio (given the fact that Autodesk will not alienate either group of user) will be a single future product that will seamlessly fit into either products pipeline as a replacement for both. In which case everyone wins.

However, if you are not in a hurry to purchase, I would wait a little longer this year and see what kind of deals Autodesk may have up their sleeves. I can't imagine them not giving some kind of deal with an aquisition like this.

almux
04-09-2006, 09:35 AM
Right now (an for the near future) Autodesk is running off of the pre sale-development of both Maya and Max. I seriously doubt anything significant will change for the worse with these products in that time. Also, Autodesk is not Mac non-friendly per se. They do make products that work on Mac's. They do not make a version of Max that does. However, with the dual boot stuff that has just been announced, technically any win app will now have a Mac version. The AME Max forum has already stated they ran Max8 on a Mac running windows. I don't see anything that would scare me from purchasing either Max or Maya at this point. The worse case scenerio (given the fact that Autodesk will not alienate either group of user) will be a single future product that will seamlessly fit into either products pipeline as a replacement for both. In which case everyone wins.

However, if you are not in a hurry to purchase, I would wait a little longer this year and see what kind of deals Autodesk may have up their sleeves. I can't imagine them not giving some kind of deal with an aquisition like this.

Thanks for your hint.
Well... I've been working so far on Pixels3D a Mac only 3D app wich helped me much to go into Maya learning. At the Multimedia school i followed last year, C4D and Maya where both well represented. I will wait a little because i can still do a lot with the actual (since 4 years) gathered material on compositing and adding funny stuff with Apple's FC and Motion. But I attend to finish a project where a higher 3D creation is desired... and Maya would just be THE app to use for it! So it's a little painfull waiting going on...

jbradley
04-10-2006, 02:49 PM
They do not make a version of Max that does. However, with the dual boot stuff that has just been announced, technically any win app will now have a Mac version. The AME Max forum has already stated they ran Max8 on a Mac running windows.

The fact is that you still have to run Windows.

3DDave
04-10-2006, 05:41 PM
Ok, the upgrade to 7 was $200 BEFORE Autodesk bought Alias, now it is $2000. Does Autodesk think we are turnups or what! I don't need the pro features that's why I bought the standard version, duh!

mummey
04-10-2006, 06:00 PM
Ok, the upgrade to 7 was $200 BEFORE Autodesk bought Alias, now it is $2000. Does Autodesk thing we are turnups or what! I don't need the pro features that's why I bought the standard version, duh!

Right now I'm looking at Autodesk's store, and they have 7 Standard priced at 995 new and 250 for upgrade from MB5 or MB6.

GoranNF
05-03-2006, 09:56 AM
Guys,have you noticed this from autodesk's website?



*There will not be a Personal Learning Edition offered for Autodesk MotionBuilder 7.5.



So,that means that the PLE will not be supported anymore?

colkai
05-03-2006, 11:09 AM
This is me, not looking surprised.
PLE edition, what, you mean, don't shaft folks for every penny you can get, sorry, not company policy. :twisted:

Als
05-03-2006, 11:14 AM
Right now I'm looking at Autodesk's store, and they have 7 Standard priced at 995 new and 250 for upgrade from MB5 or MB6.

Can you post a link please.

Thanks


Als

dunkelzahn
05-03-2006, 01:09 PM
Just received an official letter from Autodesk and in it they make a very strong point about continuing Max, Maya as well as Motion Builder, as well as making MB the official mediator between Max and Maya.

Steve Green
05-03-2006, 02:02 PM
I think a lot of this will depend on how the market reacts to it. I remember when Autodesk nearly doubled the price of combustion, which lasted for a few months, then the price dropped to below $1000, less than the initial price before the price rise.

Maybe the price of Pro will come down, who knows.

- Steve

CGTalk Moderation
05-03-2006, 02:02 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.