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AdamT
03-20-2006, 05:25 PM
An interesting read here: http://www.cgarena.com/archives/interviews/3daliens/interview.html

Srek
03-20-2006, 05:38 PM
Now how to get that guy hooked on CINEMA for the next port? :)

Cheers
Björn

Ernest Burden
03-20-2006, 08:02 PM
Now how to get that guy hooked on CINEMA for the next port? :)

Cheers
Björn

Try writing to him on company stationary, ask. If he's spent three years defending a lawsuit, I would think he would welcome a new, positive challenge.

seco7
03-20-2006, 09:50 PM
Wow, they really have nice things to say about Next Limit! Doesn't sound like they will be invited to the Christmas party.

Sounds like a great little plugin though ...

Spacelord
03-21-2006, 04:49 AM
Wow ! That was a bit of bitch :)
Not only do Next Limit screw there customers
there employees too.
I'm sure if that link is on the maxwell forums it won't last long.

Besides that, good on these guys, 3dglu looks great, now if they
make there own Maxwell render we would have a great renderer
and great support.
Good to see them bring 3dglu to XSI.

cheers

AdamT
03-21-2006, 01:02 PM
The thread lasted almost an hour at the NL forums before it was locked and the content deleted. I was very surprised it lasted that long. The guy who posted it got his "first warning", meaning he will be banned if he does something NL doesn't like again. I'm sure he'd have been banned straightaway if he didn't own 120 Maxwell licenses (poor bastard).

lllab
03-21-2006, 06:27 PM
i would be happy owning 120 maxwell licenses... i really dont get you guys.

by the way i dont believe this guy more than anybody else. it is really not up to us -having no first hand information, to judge here who is right.

fact is it is "a la mode" to bash nextlimit these days, and forgeting they developed a really nice renderer, it is late , yes...

... but so is brazil2, so is final render stage2 for maya and max, so is vray 1.5, so is modo2.01 etc

and yes they are also not the only one having strange support(see 3dmax,maya, final render, audodesk, archicad, adobe, apple, ms....

you are all spoiled by maxon i guess;-)

my2cent
stefan

Ernest Burden
03-21-2006, 06:42 PM
you are all spoiled by maxon i guess;-)

Stefan

On that we can easily agree.

Maxon makes me angry by refusing to let us know what improvements are in the works, but they've never promised me something and then not delivered it. They have also never charged me before they had the goods to deliver for next day. They also answer my emails.

Its good to be spoiled like that once in a while. I really appreciate it. Especially now.

lllab
03-21-2006, 06:51 PM
"Maxon makes me angry by refusing to let us know what improvements"

yep me too...

-...i guess both methods are not perfect, if there is any perfect. i guess any way you do it you will have some angry buyers. i understand maxon and i understand nextlimit.

i personally would prefer being able to buy a beta cinema4d v10 already and playing with it- to be honest. at least i could somehow guess/know what will be the future of cinema, to be able to make plans, maybe even help to make it better.

same for me for maxwell: it could be all secret under nda's until know- nobody would know it - nobody would have reason to complain- but would you really like this? iam very, very happy to be able to to know maxwell now, before it is a finished product.

i know most of you see it different, but thats "my 2 cent"

cheers
stefan

bobtronic
03-21-2006, 07:10 PM
i personally would prefer being able to buy a beta cinema4d v10 already and playing with it- to be honest. at least i could somehow guess/know what will be the future of cinema, to be able to make plans, maybe even help to make it better.


afaik that wouldn't work simply because of the german law that forces a company to provide support for a product, or something along these lines. and can you imagine how hard it would be to provide support for beta software.

my 2 cents

cheers,
Bob

Srek
03-21-2006, 07:22 PM
afaik that wouldn't work simply because of the german law that forces a company to provide support for a product, or something along these lines. and can you imagine how hard it would be to provide support for beta software.
Correct on both accounts, additionaly the sales of the earlier product would drop even though you can't be sure to finish the next version nearly in time. Also you would have a tremendous additonal organisational heap of work that would need to be paid for.
Then imagine that you have features in the beta version that don't make it in the final version. This is a sure way to disgruntle customers.
Nope, releasing betas is not an option imo.
Cheers
Björn

seco7
03-21-2006, 07:33 PM
i know most of you see it different, but thats "my 2 cent"


Since things seem more civil here at cgtalk, I'll add my two cents as well. Illab, I'm not sure many disagree with you about NL taking their time or even changing direction a bit if technically they had too. My displeasure with NL stems from misleading expectations. When I purchased almost a year ago, I received the now infamous "v1.0 released in a few weeks" e-mail. It seems utterly impossible (given the later developments) that at that point in time NL honestly believed knowing all the technical issues they still faced and lengthy development still to go that this was even absurdly possible. It seems to me that two possibilities exist, 1) they are so bad at software developement that they misjudged between 2 weeks and 1 year + (which we know they are not!) or 2) it was simply misleading marketing in order to generate revenue.

I also completely concure about being spoiled by Maxon! :thumbsup:

Steve

p.s. Srek, is it too early to start hounding you for v10 hints?!? :)

Ernest Burden
03-21-2006, 07:44 PM
Srek, is it too early to start hounding you for v10 hints?!? :)

It's never too early. Heck, I've done it already. The problem is, he never gives any! It's that darn consistency thing. Maybe even some integrity thrown in.

Simply put, the experiment of having customers pre-order a software still in early research (and cashing the checks--Cebas didn't do that) didn't work. Now we know better. However the current mess of NextLimit works itself out, I hope nobody ever again thinks that was a good idea. But we make mistakes, the value is in learning from them.

AdamT
03-21-2006, 07:50 PM
Since things seem more civil here at cgtalk, I'll add my two cents as well. Illab, I'm not sure many disagree with you about NL taking their time or even changing direction a bit if technically they had too. My displeasure with NL stems from misleading expectations. When I purchased almost a year ago, I received the now infamous "v1.0 released in a few weeks" e-mail. It seems utterly impossible (given the later developments) that at that point in time NL honestly believed knowing all the technical issues they still faced and lengthy development still to go that this was even absurdly possible. It seems to me that two possibilities exist, 1) they are so bad at software developement that they misjudged between 2 weeks and 1 year + (which we know they are not!) or 2) it was simply misleading marketing in order to generate revenue.

I also completely concure about being spoiled by Maxon! :thumbsup:

Well said, Seco. And that's just one of many *many* examples where NL has clearly mistated (or withheld) the truth for their own gain. IOW, it's not like we don't have any information to judge the credibility of the CGArena article. The article is completely consistent with my own experience with NL.

Spacelord
03-21-2006, 09:45 PM
I've been very quiet on the Maxwell subject for along time. I realised it was alpha/beta product and I'd wait for version 1. My main gripe is I was told there would be an XSI
version, now they have taken it off the list. Victor told me they would have one, so with
this info I purchased a copy. So false advertising.

i would be happy owning 120 maxwell licenses... i really dont get you guys.

by the way i dont believe this guy more than anybody else. it is really not up to us -having no first hand information, to judge here who is right.

fact is it is "a la mode" to bash nextlimit these days, and forgeting they developed a really nice renderer, it is late , yes...

... but so is brazil2, so is final render stage2 for maya and max, so is vray 1.5, so is modo2.01 etc

and yes they are also not the only one having strange support(see 3dmax,maya, final render, audodesk, archicad, adobe, apple, ms....

you are all spoiled by maxon i guess;-)

my2cent
stefan

nycL45
03-22-2006, 12:42 AM
It's never too early. Heck, I've done it already. The problem is, he never gives any! It's that darn consistency thing. Maybe even some integrity thrown in.

Simply put, the experiment of having customers pre-order a software still in early research (and cashing the checks--Cebas didn't do that) didn't work. Now we know better. However the current mess of NextLimit works itself out, I hope nobody ever again thinks that was a good idea. But we make mistakes, the value is in learning from them.

(Teeth gnashing...) True, Cebas did not cash the checks, however, their communications via their forum, etc. is not much better than NL. In a few days, it will be seven months since I bought/ordered fR2 *Mac v.* and no clear timeline or road map or weekly updates as to when it will pop out.

lllab
03-22-2006, 09:23 AM
well, srek yes i understand the technical etc reason, i just said i personally would like to be able to buy pre versions - but i sure understand its not possible and also leads to a lot of problems (see nextlimit)

still i understand both ways, and again i personally are very happy to have maxwell already before 1.0.

at the end it is defintilty better for maxon to not release pre info i guess. that is a lot more save:-)
i must say Maxon support is realy excellentalso !

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
03-22-2006, 11:57 AM
(Teeth gnashing...) True, Cebas did not cash the checks, however, their communications via their forum, etc. is not much better than NL. In a few days, it will be seven months since I bought/ordered fR2 *Mac v.* and no clear timeline or road map or weekly updates as to when it will pop out.

I feel for you on that. I get a little hit of guilt when I switch on FR2 and think of my Mac friends.

And I am also getting frustrated with not having some bugs I found fixed yet...or any real word on when they might be. The real superhero on Cebas' forum is Fluffy, who is very helpful, but not a Cebas person (as far as I know). The bugs, plus the lack of Maxon-like stability in DR has made FR2 not all that usable in production for me. I keep setting up to use it, then at the last minute have to fall back on AR2 to get my work out.

Maxwell isn't even on the radar for me with production. I know Stefen is using it with success, but I haven't had the time to figure out all the shortcomings, and between pre-released version the settings and methods have changed, so I really do not have re-learning time just now.

lllab
03-22-2006, 12:20 PM
yes i like both, i am working in FR and maxwell, on the save side in FR. but last week i almost lost a project due the bugginess of FR, MW is far more stable for me.

still i wished an AR with the qualities of maxwell, vray and final render combined. lets see for v10:-) or what future will bring.

i guess it will be that i will work with all 3(4) of them in future, as there will never be a "perfect" product- as long as my host application is cinema i am happy.

cheers
stefan

ChrisCousins
03-27-2006, 03:56 PM
As an interested outsider to all of this - I don't own Maxwell or RealFlow - I came across an interesting link to an official NextLimit tutorial for setting up dynamics in Lightwave:

http://www.nextlimit.com/realflow/html/download/lightwave/dyn2lightwave.html

Amusingly, when they browse to the Lightwave base folder there are a couple of additional files in there - the two ssg-*.exe files - which apparently are cracks :argh:

Made me laugh...

C

BeccoUK
03-27-2006, 09:52 PM
The lesson I have learned from the Maxwell fiasco is not to buy into a pre-order offer with a company that has no experience of developing the chosen software. It would be easy to cast a blanket negativity of all software companies based on the Maxwell experience but that view is moderated by Maxon's recent Hair module. I pre-ordered that and the software arrived a few days later. Equally as important was the fact that Maxon didn't take my money before sending out the module. Next Limit, on the other hand took the money and are still running with it without the goods being delivered.

From what I can assertain the final version of Maxwell will have features left out that induced me to buy in the first place.

The contrast between Maxon's good customer relations and Next Limits' customer no relations couldn't be more vivid.

olbo
03-27-2006, 11:08 PM
As an interested outsider to all of this - I don't own Maxwell or RealFlow - I came across an interesting link to an official NextLimit tutorial for setting up dynamics in Lightwave:

http://www.nextlimit.com/realflow/html/download/lightwave/dyn2lightwave.html

Amusingly, when they browse to the Lightwave base folder there are a couple of additional files in there - the two ssg-*.exe files - which apparently are cracks :argh:

Made me laugh...

C

Wow, ... what an interesting movie. :eek: :hmm:


take care
Oleg

Carl007
03-28-2006, 07:48 AM
Yes, very interesting movie....NOT

So, what features are scraped for MR v 1.0?

lllab
03-28-2006, 08:10 AM
edit- sorry srek:-)
wasnt important anyway...

cheers
stefan

Srek
03-28-2006, 08:24 AM
Please no discussions on warez usage etc., otherwise the thread will be closed
Thanks
Björn

AdamT
03-28-2006, 02:40 PM
Yes, very interesting movie....NOT

So, what features are scraped for MR v 1.0?
Most importantly, v1.0 won't have the ability to render caustics seen through glass. Doesn't sound so bad, but remember that *everything* rendered through glass in M~R is caustics. So, if your camera is outside of a building, you won't be able to see sunlight *inside* the building. Unbelievable, huh?

And, no clip maps, no procedurals, no particles, no displacement.... No 2-point perspective.... That's all I can think of at the moment. Doesn't seem like there will be much speed improvement either.

seco7
03-28-2006, 03:41 PM
It is defenitely tough for them to catch up on years of development from other engines, not to mention technical limitations of their particular method (caustics through glass, etc). Or maybe they are just bugs... :)

What surprised me though was the large number of "unbiased" render engines out there. Very few are commercially ready or ever viable, but still. I even ran across a few that had Cinema plugins! I'll look for the links when I get back to work. I think most all concede the same render time drawback though. I have had renders run for days on Maxwell that haven't cleaned up. Makes it kind of tough for any sort of production pipeline for me. I'm still in the testing for fun stage, but even that is painfully slow! Add in the high degree of trial and error and wow.

nycL45
03-28-2006, 04:33 PM
...Makes it kind of tough for any sort of production pipeline for me. I'm still in the testing for fun stage, but even that is be painfully slow! Add in the high degree of trial and error and wow.

Try nine CPUs.

seco7
03-28-2006, 06:33 PM
I guess my pipeline is more of a trickle ... :cry:

dann_stubbs
03-28-2006, 10:09 PM
Try nine CPUs.

i was under the impression that the network rendering did not work yet in the current RC1 - there was a teaser they sent out that showed the "working" network rendering but i was unaware of that actually being available? or did i miss something...

dann

AdamT
03-28-2006, 11:12 PM
The current available release is RC5 and it doesn't have network rendering.

dann_stubbs
03-28-2006, 11:33 PM
The current available release is RC5 and it doesn't have network rendering.

that is what i thought - so that is why i was confused about the "use 9cpu" comment - besides isn't maxwell sold as "fours" so how do you get 9? i've got two licenses and only have 8CPU total

dann

seco7
04-07-2006, 02:32 PM
Just thought I would mention for those who have not already seen it, NL announced the release date for Maxwell 1.0 as April 26th.

AdamT
04-07-2006, 02:38 PM
Just thought I would mention for those who have not already seen it, NL announced the release date for Maxwell 1.0 as April 26th.
They've also offered an additional license to anyone who preordered--as a "thank you for your patience" gift.

seco7
04-07-2006, 03:52 PM
Better than a T-shirt or coffee mug. :)

I wish their announcements had some details in them. There are so many unanswered questions about what this release will / will not do.

dann_stubbs
04-07-2006, 05:23 PM
They've also offered an additional license to anyone who preordered--as a "thank you for your patience" gift.

hmm... that is better then nothing - but is it one free license for one pre-order - or one license for each pre-order.

i can just see the complaint of someone who bought one gets one free - where someone who bought 10 gets 1 - not so good a bonus...

well it will be interesting to see if they make the date - also was there any mention of limitations? (adamt i think said no caustics through glass previously? or network rendering working?)

dann

tikal26
04-07-2006, 06:35 PM
I don't know if you bought ten, but if you bought 2 you get 2 free liscences which is sweet.

AdamT
04-07-2006, 06:51 PM
I don't know if you bought ten, but if you bought 2 you get 2 free liscences which is sweet.
Where did you hear that?

tikal26
04-07-2006, 07:24 PM
People are confirming that on the Maxwell forum.
They are posting thing like this
I just got confirmed that since I have 2 licenses I`ll get 2 extra for free, thats not bad:)

but people are still complaining about not wanting another liscence. I sent my e-mail and as soon as I get a reply I would let you know

AdamT
04-07-2006, 08:22 PM
Hm, I haven't seen anyone confirm it; just a lot of speculation.

Venkman
04-10-2006, 01:53 PM
hmm... that is better then nothing - but is it one free license for one pre-order - or one license for each pre-order.

i can just see the complaint of someone who bought one gets one free - where someone who bought 10 gets 1 - not so good a bonus...




Come on, stay positive. A month ago you guys would have been happy with full working software, no? I think everyone should accept the olive branch with a smile.

Any word on if the 1.0 release will be worth pre-ordering for? It looks like I can still get it for $500.

AdamT
04-10-2006, 02:07 PM
I'll take the olive branch in my bared, snarling teeth! :)

I'd say it's still risky investing in Maxwell, but it depends on what you hope to do with it. It's probably still going to be painfully slow for interiors and it still won't render light through glass or in reflections in certain situations. That limits its usefullness for production archvis work.

Plugin integration is also quite up in the air. The current plugin works, but there are some major limitations (no material selections, no animation, no motion blur, no material preview, no instances, etc., etc.). These limitations have been in place from day one, so I'm skeptical that they'll suddenly be fixed for v1.0.

OTOH, Maxwell does have some unique abilities and it can produce stunning renders in the right hands ... if you throw enough time at it.

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