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Layer01
03-19-2006, 12:15 PM
OK so we have a new version of messiah. we've said our "ooh's" and "aah's".
so lets start by taking it aparts, show them just how fast a public beta could stomp out bugs if we we're given the chance, and on that note this sort of feels like that a bit anyway, as on IRC we've been picking it apart bit by bit.
Lets keep this civil, and constructive. So dont post your rants at how angry you are about a certain bug, do that in your own thread.

Make sure you explain step by step how your bug is occuring, and provide screenshots where possible and if necessary a link to the file you need to get the bug. ( www.filefront.com is a good free file host and www.photobucket.com can be used for img's)

ok lets get started: :thumbsup:

Layer01
03-19-2006, 12:17 PM
I found this by accident when playing around with the doll eyes scene file in 2.4. not sure if its a 2.4 only bug. but its a bug none the less.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/Layer01/Bug_01.jpg

Parsec3d
03-19-2006, 12:22 PM
onion skin for undo ;)?

Layer01
03-19-2006, 12:28 PM
onion skin for undo ;)?
lol. could be onto something there :p

anyway i know the guys in IRC will have a bunch. it will be interesting to see what comes up in here :deal:

Layer01
03-19-2006, 12:43 PM
in the spirit of getting this rolling, i'm going to post a few that have been sent to the mailing list.

this one's from Isobar :)


Hi guys, with the new 2.4 I'm getting a funny crash loading LW objects
that have a UV map asigned.

I made a default sphere, used the Texture Guide tool in LW to make the
UV map, then saved.

crashes;
http://66.180.150.90/temp/test.lwo

works;
http://66.180.150.90/temp/test.obj

That's the same object, saved/exported from lightwave 8.5. It loads OK
in 2.2.



On the plus side, the default untextured surfaces render much nicer!

and in reply this was given


Confirmed crash with that lwo object.
After playing about, it seems that Texture Guide is the culprit. It
leaves the points separate from their given position. Not sure what that
is called, but it happens if you weld points that already have differing
uv coordinates sometimes... at least - taht's what I tip. You know, they
appear as red. Apparently saving out as obj strips this information and
re-saving the obj as a lwo also works in messiah....

Go figure.

also Sil3 in #messiah3d tried loading the rhino object that comes with
Modo, which apparently caused a crash. this is as of yet unconfirmed by other modo users.
Edit: just tested it and it is a confirmed crash


Just to help consolidate bug reports into one place i'm quoting this from svintaj's post
I think I have found one crash-bug and a broken feature so far..

1) ( Crash ) Create a "Particles Effect", in the Particles Surface add a new Particle Shader and connect output-color to RADIANCE.Then go to the Particle Input/Output tab and disable: "Render with Volume Intersection Method", go to some other frame than 0 and hit F9 to render... Crash!

2) ( Copy surface is not working ) Hit F5 and double-click on the StreakedMetal preset, it now appears in the Materials Tray, right-click on it and choose copy now go ahead and paste it on another material, it will not do a proper copy as you can see.

Can anyone confirm this?

/ Svante

Nichod
03-19-2006, 01:00 PM
I'd also like to point this one out:

I think I have found one crash-bug and a broken feature so far..

1) ( Crash ) Create a "Particles Effect", in the Particles Surface add a new Particle Shader and connect output-color to RADIANCE.Then go to the Particle Input/Output tab and disable: "Render with Volume Intersection Method", go to some other frame than 0 and hit F9 to render... Crash!

2) ( Copy surface is not working ) Hit F5 and double-click on the StreakedMetal preset, it now appears in the Materials Tray, right-click on it and choose copy now go ahead and paste it on another material, it will not do a proper copy as you can see.

Can anyone confirm this?

/ Svante

Found here:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=330596

Edit: Hehe. Beat me to it!

dobermunk
03-19-2006, 01:08 PM
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/composeBug.jpg

Well, here's an out-and-out bug, since we're collecting them here... still in 2.4.

Taken from my page of desired small things (http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/index.htm)...

More from the 2.4 as I get time. Psyched!

Layer01
03-19-2006, 01:23 PM
ok while not a show stopping bug, its still a bug.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/Layer01/Bug_02.jpg

svintaj
03-19-2006, 02:57 PM
Undo are still not working on skeleton editing in Setup, like:
Add Bone, Add Child Bone, Realtime Add, Realtime Modify and Split Bone.

/ Svante

MoodyB
03-19-2006, 02:58 PM
When a transparent object has part of its geometry above the horizon line in the camera view, it will show the enviroment material / texture map ' through ' it. This happens even when the background camera material is active.

This doesn't happen if there is geometry behind the transparent object.

MoodyB
03-19-2006, 03:29 PM
Not really a bug, but more of a suggestion :

' Tint to Surface colour ' in the reflection channel should default to 1.0 instead of 0.0, as if you're not aware of it when loading an old scene / material, reflections appear overly bright / strong due to being tinted to white ( I think ) by the default value of 0.0.

The reflection bug fix on black materials is nice though :)

dobermunk
03-19-2006, 06:58 PM
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/composeBug.jpg


Hmm... first time I oipened the setting wasn'[t saved, but after re-saving and opening it seems to be taken care of! Can anyb ody confirm?

Julez4001
03-19-2006, 07:51 PM
Nice to see you guys taking the bug reporting by the horn.

Layer01
03-19-2006, 11:44 PM
Names don't line up with their rows in the dope sheet

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/Layer01/Bug_03.jpg

Layer01
03-20-2006, 12:08 AM
this one's in 2.2 as well i think. but its a bug so here it goes.

the dope sheet needs a LOT of work. its insane atm to select anything in it. Ctrl clicking over groups of keys is broken. the keys that are highlighted deselect and the ones that arn't are selected. only way to get them all is to select them individually.
if you can select them at all :p
high res img if you cant see the marque selections is here (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/Layer01/Bug_04.jpg)
this was done with the butch scene

Edit: seems this is not a bug and more a workflow error on my part. but it does however remind me of the selection problems when selecting multiple keys in the dope. and then trying to deselect them...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/Layer01/Bug_04_a.jpg

DaveW
03-20-2006, 12:58 AM
Layer01, I've found that the keys that don't get selected are keys on a channel other than the current channel for the item. So if you have a box with a key on the x and y channels on frame 10, but on frame 20 only the x channel has a key, if y is the active channel then you won't be able to select the key on frame 20 unless you shift-click it. BTW, shift-clicking would probably be less frustrating in this case than ctrl-clicking, since shift-click will only add to the selection.

A related bug that is still in 2.4, in the same situation as above if you were to select the key on frame 20 (which is a key only on x channel) and drag it to a different frame, the inactive keys associated with it will become active, thus screwing up the motion. It's a real pain in the ass, I was hoping it would get fixed for this release.


On a more positive note, the 84.21 forceware drivers have been working flawlessly with dualcore athlon + messiah in XP32.

Layer01
03-20-2006, 02:05 AM
Thanks for pointing that out dave :)
i was shortly after posting told the error of my ways with Ctrl clicking :p but i'll keep the channel stuff in mind :thumbsup:

there is however one issue i still have with the dope sheet. you can shift select an area of keys, you can ctrl select and sort of boolean select the keys. but you cant deselect an area of keys ..at least not that i know of.

dobermunk
03-20-2006, 11:45 AM
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/animImm_select_Bug.jpg
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/index.htm

dobermunk
03-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Can anyone confirm or deny problems when using mdd's baked with PointOven in the new 2.4? Specifically, they bake fine, but LW can't find them (even when double-clicking them)?

Found the problem. My computer is haunted...

Layer01
03-20-2006, 10:05 PM
Found the problem. My computer is haunted...

lol arn't they all ;)

Labuzz
03-21-2006, 07:36 AM
I get funky renders with obj files (from ZB)...All is good when save those files in LWO.

DE-FBBC-EACADA-D16 gives "good result"...

Suricate
03-21-2006, 08:42 AM
Another Bug: The new render outbut buffers (e.g. depth, radiance etc.) are always saved out to the config directory (i.e. C:\Documents and Settings\YourName\Local Settings\Temp\messiah), even if you have chosen another diretory.

sadicus
03-21-2006, 01:58 PM
noisette not working in DollEyes
i have loaded all three DollEyes Samples in 2.4 and 2.2a

Labuzz
03-21-2006, 03:10 PM
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bug0012iu.jpg
left is the lwo file. I was doing some tests on displacement ( DE-FBBC-EACADA-D16 gives "good result"...export from ZB) maps when I have had this problem .

Another thing control on the intensity of the Gi bounce would be cool....and a way to reduce this noise ( everywhere...) without increasing the Gi samples.
See the lips and the eyes.
http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nouzimav0024oc.jpg

stooch
03-21-2006, 03:47 PM
in the kray box render test scene, select the camera view and then select the camera and try rotating it along the pitch axis while in world coordinates, seems to me the rotations are all messed up. pitch behaves more like bank for some reason.

jgj
03-21-2006, 05:06 PM
You need to set each output buffer's save settings individually by selecting each one in the list. A bit tedious, but provides good control over output, say if you wanted buffers in separate directories, etc.

There seem to be some problems with the buffers themselves though... the shadow buffer is just a shadow = 1, no-shadow = 0 affair, which can't be right (?). The depth buffer appears not to work at all, and the Specular Radiance buffer is, at least in the few tests I've run, pretty dim, and not proportional to the brightness of the specular highlights.

-Jim


Another Bug: The new render outbut buffers (e.g. depth, radiance etc.) are always saved out to the config directory (i.e. C:\Documents and Settings\YourName\Local Settings\Temp\messiah), even if you have chosen another diretory.

kvernon
03-21-2006, 06:06 PM
Another Bug: The new render outbut buffers (e.g. depth, radiance etc.) are always saved out to the config directory (i.e. C:\Documents and Settings\YourName\Local Settings\Temp\messiah), even if you have chosen another diretory.

I've seen this too. It's not so much as changing the path and rendering, to me it's saving the default path in the config file of messiah. I even did like the preview docs stated and created an environment variable. Still every time I change C:\temp\ to C:\projects\3d\, save the file then load messiah it ignores it and writes it back to C:\temp\.


Regards,

Kelly

AlexK
03-21-2006, 07:03 PM
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/animImm_select_Bug.jpg
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/index.htm
Actually I checked that one yesterday and Maya is doing is the same. You cannot select through the manipulator. Which of course doesn't mean we should keep it that way only that one of the "big apps" is no different in that respect. ;)

MoodyB
03-24-2006, 01:27 AM
Depth output in the preview window is different from what is saved to disk. The saved image looks right, but the preview window seems to use it's own values no matter what ' modify output buffer ' is set to.

The depth map also doesn't show transparency mapped objects properly ( they are shown as solid )

IRONIC3D
03-24-2006, 02:48 PM
Hi guys,

I think I have found a bug in the current build. I recently baught Messiah, and been going through the tutorials that comes with messiah. While doing the texturing for monte I couldn't get the maps to map propperly on the object. The images are bieng Planer mapped on the z axis but different coordinates. I opened the already textured scene and the mapping is correct. but if I remove the texture map node and apply another one my self, the mapping problem appears again. I've also noticed that the placement information are not bieng saved or present on the scene that was already made, meaning when you open the Texturing_Monte_biggners scene and look through the mapping transformation, all the fields are zeroed out and to their default setting! I've tried different mapping routine thinking that the mapping list order was wrong, but it's the same.

Can anyone else confirm this?

Thanks in advance

Iyad
Animator

AlexK
03-25-2006, 09:47 PM
I haven't tried the Monte scene, but I (or better Sil3) found another bug. The 2.4 update broke the UV mapping. Anyone who wants to test it can download the zBrush test head from http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=20310 and try to render the displacement.

rush123
03-25-2006, 11:40 PM
AlexK,

I can confirm the displacment problem in 2.4.

But as a work around I backed-up the file 'SH_TextureMap.dll' in the \\pmG\messiahStudio2.4\messiah\modules\shaders and copied 'SH_TextureMap.dll' from pmG\messiahStudio2.2\messiah\modules\shaders into my 2.4 version. Then tried the scene again and it WORKED

Try at your own discretion and your own risk. :bounce:

R

MoodyB
03-28-2006, 02:25 PM
When you clone an object that has a UV map applied and active in the texture block, the UV map is disabled in the UV list for the new clone.

IRONIC3D
03-28-2006, 09:11 PM
Found another bug, When changing the key ediyting group from the viewWorld panel to "All Channels" in the key Editing menu in the Edit panel it gets set to "Extended Channels >11" but if you set it to extended from the little icon to be Extended, it becomes All Channels in the main panel! I think the order has changed! nice :)

Cheers

biliousfrog
03-31-2006, 05:31 PM
I can't even open a file!

I can click on the menu tabs but I can't effectively scroll to where I want to go because the scrolling starts from halfway down the list, to load something I'd need to scroll up rather than down & I don't have the screen space.

This doesn't just happen on the file tab, almost everywhere on the interface it's as if my mouse is in a different place to the pointer....I dragged the timeline up & couldn't put it back down again...click on Play-Size-worldview & it jumps straight to 640x480, I can't select anything else.....Output jumps to AVI file & I can't select anything else....

Every single button is like it, I can't use it at all.

I'm using the mouse with my Wacom Intuos3, works fine with every other app but Messiah ain't having it.

ThomasHelzle
03-31-2006, 06:00 PM
billousfrog: I have that problem for a long time now, it isn't new to 2.4
I almost got used to it...
I sure would miss this reminder of how random life is when it would be fixed...

Edit: it not only happens with the tablet but also with the normal mouse.

Ooooohhhhhhmmmm.... :bowdown:

isobarxx
03-31-2006, 06:20 PM
I can't even open a file!
I can click on the menu tabs but I can't effectively scroll to where I want to go because the scrolling starts from halfway down the list, to load something I'd need to scroll up rather than down & I don't have the screen space.



That is annoying. If you click, let go, and click-drag again in the flyout menu it should work as expected.

biliousfrog
04-02-2006, 05:27 PM
I can click it all day long, it still doesn't work.....it's not a big problem as I haven't really used it since I bought it anyway at version 2.0, I just thought that it might actually be at a workable version but alas......

unfortunately all these bugs have left me with a buggy app that I'm too frustrated with to use & that no-one will buy off me because of all the negative posts on here.....bah!

AAAron
04-02-2006, 05:32 PM
Iīve seen a lot of people sell there licences without problem, do you got a workstation or pro licence?

Julez4001
04-02-2006, 05:35 PM
It only happen for at 2.2b+

My 2.0, 2.2a desn't do that (at least with the mouse).


billousfrog: I have that problem for a long time now, it isn't new to 2.4
I almost got used to it...
I sure would miss this reminder of how random life is when it would be fixed...

Edit: it not only happens with the tablet but also with the normal mouse.

Ooooohhhhhhmmmm.... :bowdown:

AAAron
04-03-2006, 01:51 PM
Found a little bug both in 2.4 and 2.4b, nothing serious since you can work around it:

When you have translucency turned on, adding a matte node kills it even if you havenīt connected it to anything. Turning translucency on in the matte shader fix this.

kvernon
04-03-2006, 11:49 PM
I've seen this too. It's not so much as changing the path and rendering, to me it's saving the default path in the config file of messiah. I even did like the preview docs stated and created an environment variable. Still every time I change C:\temp\ to C:\projects\3d\, save the file then load messiah it ignores it and writes it back to C:\temp\.


In 2.4b, I'm still seeing this bug issue above. Messiah:studio still ignores the cfg file and rewrites everything as c:\temp\

Regards,

Kelly

Taron333
04-04-2006, 03:55 AM
Found a little bug both in 2.4 and 2.4b, nothing serious since you can work around it:

When you have translucency turned on, adding a matte node kills it even if you havenīt connected it to anything. Turning translucency on in the matte shader fix this.

Ah yeah, that's a good one, makes sense. It's a little dilemma, though...risky business. I always havn't been happy about that pesky "transmissive potential" checkbox under the surface tab's object render settings. Having the light go through an object usually requires to turn on this checkbox. Now I really hated the idea to have everyone having to turn this on, if they used the translucency in the material, because dialing in that parameter should already suggest enough. So we've changed it to automatically consider the translucency to be on, if the value is not 0. Now that might somehow have caused it to be turned off at 0, yet, I havn't seen that in the code as far as I remember....good call, for sure! We'll go check into it. Fortunately it's really nothing major and shouldn't keep anyone from working. Curious observation and why didn't I...oh, I hardly add a matte shader, hehehe....that might be part of the reason.

Taron333
04-04-2006, 04:01 AM
...all the negative posts on here.....bah!

You're the only one these days, pal!

Check you gfx board settings. Sounds like you might have some trouble there. Also make you messiah window a bit smaller for testing, make sure it doesn't go over the boarders of the screen. Then maximize it and see what happens.
Just don't be a troll, please, this is very weired. I have never had or even heard of any problems like that. And Thomas just likes to hurt us. He's a full on troll at times, depending on his mood (switches between medium and maximum troll and a rarely but seen spark of "nice and helpful guy" for us poor, helpless and defenceless developers).

So, Frog, just try the above. Oh, what gfx-board are you running anyway?

Taron333
04-04-2006, 04:21 AM
I can click on the menu tabs but I can't effectively scroll to where I want to go because the scrolling starts from halfway down the list, to load something I'd need to scroll up rather than down & I don't have the screen space.

Every single button is like it...

I'm using the mouse with my Wacom Intuos3, works fine with every other app but Messiah ain't having it.

Hmmm...on second thought, I never heard of that being a permanent problem, but I have that occasionally happening at first use of the old style pulldown. I actually never liked that either. I'm sorry if I reacted a bit allergical on the "everything sucks" kind of agenda.

Here's the upshot, the interface, although a vast and largely great construction, does have its weaknesses. We just recently optimized the menu behavior to avoid problems with some gfx-boards, but we didn't get to look at that pulldown strangeness sometimes. I would love for us to get rid of it and finally track that one down to. So we will. I'm a little afraid of that one, because it's this off and on sort of thing. Again, for me that always happened but also always just the first time I use a pulldown. The second time it's always fine. So I'm afraid it might not be something very obvious. Why this happens for you all the time and why the intuos3 appears to be so different I really do not know. Most people don't report that issue. :shrug:

SO, rest assured, we'll take care of it! There had been many things we had to take care of and we did. This won't be any different! :hmm:

Again, I apologize for getting angry with you, but don't hesitate to blame Thomas! (HAHA) :wip:

biliousfrog
04-04-2006, 07:43 AM
lol, don't worry about it Taron.....sarcasm doesn't translate well on message boards (& I'm very sarcastic) & I just say things as I see them, I'm not trying to create a problem just pointing out my problems with the software.

As for the menu problems.....
I posted on the 2.4b thread about that, it seems to be a problem with the Wacom & Messiah together. I found an old mouse in the loft & it all works fine....actually it's great. I finally feel like I've got the app that I bought exactly a year ago....still no auto-rig but I'll get over it, eventually:D

Here's a link to a video showing the menu problems, http://www.biliousfrog.co.uk/wacom_V_messiah/

It's a wmv....sorry....but it's under 2mb, if it's not clear I have a larger version. Hope it helps

Taron333
04-04-2006, 07:58 AM
phewww...man, that makes me so damn happy to hear! Thank you very much!

Wow, you filmed the monitor with a camera...haha, that's great! Oh my god....holy cow that's weired. I never saw that so severe! No wonder you got so freaked out. Looks terribly frustrating!!! Man, we're going to look into the wacom issue. But it'll be tough, because I'm running the intuos2 and it's actually, believe it or not, even more perfect than my mouse...tisk...never noticed that before. Hmmm...shi...I dunno. We'll figure it out!

But thanx, Frog! And, please, take my word, we're getting into all the nittygritty stuff and bring it all in order. I don't know about the intuos3, but hopefully with finding the pulldown weakness, we'll actually solve that issue, too! I will let you test it then. I can't tell you when, yet, though! But you'll hear from us! :beer:

Again, I'm so very glad you're up and running now! There's a lot to explore! And, yes, it's been time!

Taron

Geco
04-04-2006, 08:15 AM
lol, don't worry about it Taron.....sarcasm doesn't translate well on message boards (& I'm very sarcastic) & I just say things as I see them, I'm not trying to create a problem just pointing out my problems with the software.

As for the menu problems.....
I posted on the 2.4b thread about that, it seems to be a problem with the Wacom & Messiah together. I found an old mouse in the loft & it all works fine....actually it's great. I finally feel like I've got the app that I bought exactly a year ago....still no auto-rig but I'll get over it, eventually:D

Here's a link to a video showing the menu problems, http://www.biliousfrog.co.uk/wacom_V_messiah/

It's a wmv....sorry....but it's under 2mb, if it's not clear I have a larger version. Hope it helpshello biliousfrog do you also have this display problems?:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3125/interface9qn.png

please Taron can you help me and the other user that have this problem to find a solution?

dobermunk
04-04-2006, 08:18 AM
I have that occasionally happening at first use of the old style pulldown.

A quick test:
opened an empty scene, clicked command > expression > command list
The active row seemed to be one item off the actual mouse cursor position. Second try confirmed this, it lined up more exactly.
Opened a scene I've been working with, a character and rig. clicked command > expression > command list
The active row was - for a fraction of a second - correct, and then suddenly sprang to a row about 10 rows off. Second try was - as always correct. Closed messiah and confirmed this behavior with mouse (had been using tablet).

Perhaps this fraction of a second delay is a tip-off?

I'm sorry if I reacted a bit allergical on the "everything sucks" kind of agenda.

Personally, I appreciate this apology. That was a dig at Thomas which - in this direct context - was unprovoked. He's been very objective in his critique lately. I know he digs at you too, but just let it go by. Bygones be bygones. There's been so much positive direction recently, soak up those vibes instead. All the stability comments must have you flying! And we all know that, secretly, Thomas loves your nodes.

The irc outcast, David

Taron333
04-04-2006, 08:20 AM
hello biliousfrog do you also have this display problems?:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3125/interface9qn.png

please Taron can you help me and the other user that have this problem to find a solution?

what the'...eeek!!! What kind of graphics board are you running? Fori was mentioning an issue with a certain ATI card and its latest drivers!?! Maybe that's what he ment, but he had a solution!
Dear god, that's like....The Fly, opening the pod with the inverted monkey!!! ARGH!!!

can you at least drag them apart? Haha...shoot...I'll let you know, as soon as I know what this is all about!

Taron333
04-04-2006, 08:28 AM
Personally, I appreciate this apology. That was a dig at Thomas which - in this direct context - was unprovoked. He's been very objective in his critique lately. I know he digs at you too, but just let it go by. Bygones be bygones. There's been so much positive direction recently, soak up those vibes instead. All the stability comments must have you flying! And we all know that, secretly, Thomas loves your nodes.

The irc outcast, David

I pretty openly love his way of making his documentations and if at the time we did have the chance, I would have loved for him (look how bizarre this one is going to get) to actually even come on board to work with us. I, at some point, had to dive under and do some other gigs, but when I came back up, all hell broke loose and I don't even know what on earth was happening. Worst even was, that by that time Fori and I had already been crunching like crazy to get this nice and shiny. We've been working like dogs and picked up on so many things. Then I had to see the terror online. Needless to say that I was mad. Now I'm kinda sad, but that ain't helping. So... ...I dunno... ...let's see what's gonna happen.

Best to keep focused on the real important things and just keep on pushing forward!

Thank you very much, David! I really enjoy and appreciate your spiritual guidance! :buttrock:

Geco
04-04-2006, 08:33 AM
what the'...eeek!!! What kind of graphics board are you running? Fori was mentioning an issue with a certain ATI card and its latest drivers!?! Maybe that's what he ment, but he had a solution!
Dear god, that's like....The Fly, opening the pod with the inverted monkey!!! ARGH!!!

can you at least drag them apart? Haha...shoot...I'll let you know, as soon as I know what this is all about!:)
it's a nVIDIA Quadro FX 3400, it happens also on nVIDIA GeForce 6800GT (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3408567&postcount=191)

dobermunk
04-04-2006, 08:35 AM
what the'...eeek!!! What kind of graphics board are you running?

I've learned to live with this, just don't overlap them...
NVIDIA GeForce Go 6800 Ultra card

On my other NVidia card as well...

Geco
04-04-2006, 08:40 AM
I've learned to live with this, just don't overlap them...
NVIDIA GeForce Go 6800 Ultra card

On my other NVidia card as well...i must live with this too: :sad:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3408246&postcount=18

dobermunk
04-04-2006, 09:00 AM
i must live with this too: :sad:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3408246&postcount=18

Damn, that's harsh...
I've posted the only tips I know in this thread... sorry I can't help further.

Taron333
04-04-2006, 10:23 AM
Well, well, those are great things, too, you know. I like looking at mild catastrophies with this rather derranged appearing attitude that goes: I love to know that something that's good for me now has still so much room left to get even better.
<HAHAHAHAHA> ...shiiih....I'm not even really kidding, just a little. Yes, that's insane to have that happen and we're clearly obligated to see what's behind that, so you don't have to anymore (hoho..hoh...sorry). Wicked. :surprised

Thanx for baring with us on that one... :arteest:

:beer:

(jeeez...I'm still kinda shaking my head) :banghead:

ThomasHelzle
04-04-2006, 04:02 PM
The new copy material function gives me the following result in 2.4 as well as 2.4b:

I copy this material:

http://www.screendream.de/stuff/CopyMaterial_Before.jpg

and paste it onto another material to get this:

http://www.screendream.de/stuff/CopyMaterial_After.jpg

Please don't tell me that I am supposed to reconnect everything by hand?
Is there a special trick involved to get it working correctly?

Thanks,

Nichod
04-04-2006, 04:32 PM
Ok. I won't tell you:)

ThomasHelzle
04-04-2006, 04:41 PM
nichod :thumbsup: Thank you.

BTW. I just checked with 2.4b, on my HP laptop with an ATI Mobility Radeon X600 the "overlapping nodes" issue doesn't show up. The nodes behave properly there.
But on my GeForce 6800GT with latest drivers it looks like it's shown above, with the text from the node in the back visible on top of the node in front.

Regards,

Nichod
04-04-2006, 04:55 PM
YAY! ATI has something! I was wondering why I didn't notice this one. Woot!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

stooch
04-04-2006, 07:40 PM
New scene.

Add a null.

Select the heading handle and drag the mouse to rotate it roughtly 180 degrees.

Now move your hand back to the original position. Look at what its doing and shake your head in disbelief.

This is a huge one folks.

dobermunk
04-04-2006, 08:19 PM
Now move your hand back to the original position. Look at what its doing...

Err, sitting there?
No confirm here. Or have I missed something?

ThomasHelzle
04-04-2006, 08:23 PM
I wondered the same thing? What is happening for you other than a null rotating?

(shaking his head in disbelieve...) ;) :p

Cheers,

isobarxx
04-04-2006, 08:46 PM
Damn, that's interesting. I don't necessarily care, but it's interesting.

Put a finger or something down next to your mouse, so you know where you're starting from.
In perspective mode, grab the camera's heading channel and rotate 180 degrees. Without letting go, move your mouse back toward zero degrees. You'll hit your original mouse position at about 20 degrees.

It doesn't happen when you have Mouse Tracked Rotation Directions checked in Edit->Key/Frame Editing.

stooch
04-04-2006, 09:03 PM
lol for me, the "handle" of the rotation widget keeps on rotating in one direction. so if i move my hand back, the widget keeps on rotating a full 360 degree arc in the original direction.

this happens with any object and on all axes.

isobarxx
04-04-2006, 10:09 PM
Oh! hmm. Are you using a tablet? Does it happen in all coordinate system modes?

svintaj
04-04-2006, 10:17 PM
Select the heading handle and drag the mouse to rotate it roughtly 180 degrees.
Now move your hand back to the original position. Look at what its doing and shake your head in disbelief.

Yes I noted this to!
It's crazy!:cool: :bowdown: :arteest:

/ Svante

stooch
04-04-2006, 10:41 PM
Oh! hmm. Are you using a tablet? Does it happen in all coordinate system modes?

nope just mouse, i didnt try other coordinate systems, i was using the default one however.

jgj
04-04-2006, 11:43 PM
If you turn off "Mouse Tracked Rotation Directions" under Keyframe Editing, it won't do that.

Looks like the actual rotation values are correct, it's just the edit sphere handles which are going the wrong way.

(If I have Messiah set to Mouse Input, the rotation controls go in only one direction regardless of which way I move the mouse. If I have it set to Tablet Input and use my Wacom pen, it keeps spinning on it's own even after stopping pen movement. In fact, I can't tell any difference in the way the interface responds whether I have it set to Mouse or Tablet. It's like it's stuck in Mouse Input mode. Probably a separate issue...)

-Jim

AAAron
04-05-2006, 01:23 PM
A little addon to the translucency matte problem. Nor do it only override the the original surfaces translucency it changes the subsurface color value too. So if you change it on eather the matte or the original surface node the other one changes too. :sad:

ThomasHelzle
04-07-2006, 10:45 AM
Javier Becana on the mailing list found that one:

Create a gradient shader node, go to it's light tab and double click on a light -> the list goes completley crazy. You need to restart messiah to get it working again:

The light list before... :

http://www.screendream.de/stuff/GradientLightList_Before.jpg

... and after a doubleclick on the light:

http://www.screendream.de/stuff/GradientLightList_After.jpg

Cheers,

dobermunk
04-07-2006, 05:18 PM
updating my wish list! Found this one odd, thought hte two were connected:

http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/scriptBar_text.jpg

the text in the script tray is now clean, but the shaders continue to overlap. Any confirms?

ThomasHelzle
04-07-2006, 05:32 PM
Yes, "shader overlapping" is still there in 2.4b with Nvidia.

Also the strange menu/mouse offset still makes navigating a bit random.

Cheers,

dobermunk
04-07-2006, 05:52 PM
Thanks, Thomas.
Taron, is this a tip-off? I mean - both overlap, but one is suddenly fixed....

Taron333
04-08-2006, 12:47 AM
Wohh, hmmm...strange things! I also have two different Nvidia cards and don't have that problem...darned. We'll have to check into that!

And the gradient light thing, holy moly...yes, yes, yes, that's completely bizarre, I have this, too. Thanx a lot! Sorry to have missed that one! :shrug:

Wow, I'm a little shocked...but a coffee or two will get me over that for a moment. We will work this out immediately! :wip: :wip: :banghead: :wip:

Thanx again,

Taron

ThomasHelzle
04-08-2006, 09:47 AM
BTW. I use the official Nvidia drivers 84.21 with pretty much default settings.

My Wacom Intuos 1 drivers (if they are involved in the menu-offset problem) are version 4.93-3. The Problem is there when using the tablet itself with the pen as well as when using a normal microsoft USB mouse that is active in parallel.

Thanks for looking into it!

dobermunk
04-08-2006, 12:56 PM
from my wish list (http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/index.htm):

http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/directoryWierdness.jpg

ThomasHelzle
04-08-2006, 01:18 PM
confirmed about the behaviour of the Project Directory.

I always found PDs acting a bit funky in messiah. Maybe it is because of the "One Load for All"? In Lightwave it behaves clearer. I personally would split the load button into multiple options, so for instance you would be spared the "Replace or Append" Dialogue on every scene load. It could be like this:
- Load Scene.
- Merge/Append Scene.
- Load Items from Scene (with selection Dialogue)
- Load Object.
- Load Object Layer.
- Replace Object.
Then we could also get rid of that weird Dinosaur-Blocks "Add Item" and especially "Multiply Item" on the File Tab.

And yes, a "Last used Project Directories" or some kind of Project Manager ala XSI would be helpful.

dobermunk
04-09-2006, 07:22 PM
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/bug_meltSpread.jpg

This is a wierd bugger. Nothing crucial, but everytime I open my scene, the melt is going a bit nuts. Touching the slider once makes it suddenly disappear, and then its fine. I've checked all the settings in set-up and so I think its a (minor) bug.

AlexK
04-09-2006, 08:26 PM
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/messiah_wishList/bug_meltSpread.jpg

This is a wierd bugger. Nothing crucial, but everytime I open my scene, the melt is going a bit nuts. Touching the slider once makes it suddenly disappear, and then its fine. I've checked all the settings in set-up and so I think its a (minor) bug.
I am able to confirm this behaviour. I had similar problems with our panther (which is finished for nearly 1 1/2 months now - if I would only find the time to update the panther thread again to give it closure *sigh*)

dobermunk
04-10-2006, 07:41 AM
if I would only find the time to update the panther thread again to give it closure *sigh*)
Please do! Would love to see what you've done!

Labuzz
04-10-2006, 01:24 PM
BUG
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bugfullshaderunilimit0012xt.jpg

DMack
04-10-2006, 02:03 PM
Tenuous use of the word BUG but....when you zoom into the graph editor it still zooms around the left hand edge making the actual area of interest shoot off to the right!

dobermunk
04-10-2006, 02:59 PM
Tenuous use of the word BUG but....when you zoom into the graph editor it still zooms around the left hand edge making the actual area of interest shoot off to the right!
Yeah... this has been requested again and again for years now. Taron, please, while you're on a roll!

MoodyB
04-10-2006, 11:06 PM
Replacing a metanurbed mesh deactivates metanurbs. It also resets the objects displacement / appearance settings and deactivates any UV maps that might be applied to it.Annoying when you replace an object that has 10+ clones, and you have to redo the settings for each one by hand, as multiselected editing for properties under the displacement / appearance tab doesn't work.

In the Render / Surface tab, you can deactivate multiselected objects with one click, but you can't do the same for lights - need to deactivate each one individually

And lastly, lights dont keep their order in the surface list if you rearrange them. When you go to another part/s of the interface, then back to the surface tab, they've rearranged themselves to some other ( internal ? ) order.

Taron333
04-10-2006, 11:13 PM
Replacing a metanurbed mesh deactivates metanurbs. It also resets the objects displacement / appearance settings and deactivates any UV maps that might be applied to it.Annoying when you replace an object that has 10+ clones, and you have to redo the settings for each one by hand, as multiselected editing for properties under the displacement / appearance tab doesn't work.

In the Render / Surface tab, you can deactivate multiselected objects with one click, but you can't do the same for lights - need to deactivate each one individually

And lastly, lights dont keep their order in the surface list if you rearrange them. When you go to another part/s of the interface, then back to the surface tab, they've rearranged themselves to some other ( internal ? ) order.

Yup, I know, we need to look into that, but what you can do in the meantime is to save your scene and reload it, in case you have the objects you'd like to replace under the same name. Because of that inconvenience I got used to rename old objects as opposed to increasing version numbers on the actual object I'm using. I know it's not proper, but it works very well right now. We'll see what's possible in taking care of that! :wip:

Taron333
04-10-2006, 11:17 PM
Yeah... this has been requested again and again for years now. Taron, please, while you're on a roll!

There are different ways of looking at it, but I should make a poll on this question...
Where would you like it best:

A. zoom with the current location of the time slider as center.
B. with the current center of the viewed timeline as center.
C. with the currently selected key or keys as center.

MoodyB
04-11-2006, 12:12 AM
Yup, I know, we need to look into that, but what you can do in the meantime is to save your scene and reload it, in case you have the objects you'd like to replace under the same name. Because of that inconvenience I got used to rename old objects as opposed to increasing version numbers on the actual object I'm using. I know it's not proper, but it works very well right now. We'll see what's possible in taking care of that! :wip:

Thanks Taron, I realise I could reload the scene, but it's probably quicker to change the settings on 15+ objects by hand than wait on it to reload :p

Nichod
04-11-2006, 01:59 AM
Please guys. Lots of requests, but lets see some cool renders. And lets not hound them to much;) I can't wait to be finished with my "work" so I can do something productive with messiah myself.

ThomasHelzle
04-11-2006, 08:35 AM
A. zoom with the current location of the time slider as center.

A. would be the most flexible and versatile for me since the time slider can easily be relocated. This always worked nicely in After Effects for me too.

Sorry for quoting XSI again: The cool thing there is, that the same things work the same all over the interface:
"A" zooms on the full scene if the mouse is over a viewport. It zooms to all keys if you are over a graph editor. It zooms to all nodes if you are over a shader tree ...
"F" zooms to the currently selected object if you are over a viewport. It zooms to the selected keys over a graph editor and to the selected nodes if you are over a shader tree...

The same is true for the navigation keys. Panning is the same for views, graph and shadertree and the many other views...

If it would be possible to streamline messiah in a similar manner, that would go a long way for usability and fast learning. People always rave about how logical XSI is... ;)

But still many people find it too complicated, so there is your audience :thumbsup:

Sorry, but XSI is the best example I know - they did a lot of things right.

Edit: yes, the below option D. is excelent if you zoom with the mouse and a shortcut. When using the widget, I still think A. makes most sense. And for "automatic" zoom keys, see above.

Cheers,

dobermunk
04-11-2006, 08:37 AM
Where would you like it best:

A. zoom with the current location of the time slider as center.
B. with the current center of the viewed timeline as center.
C. with the currently selected key or keys as center.
D. the current mouse position :scream:
Must be possible, right? Otherwise.... err, time slider.

DMack
04-11-2006, 08:44 AM
There are different ways of looking at it, but I should make a poll on this question...
Where would you like it best:

A. zoom with the current location of the time slider as center.
B. with the current center of the viewed timeline as center.
C. with the currently selected key or keys as center.

NO! Please Taron, NONE of these :eek: All of your options might in certain cases require an additional action before zomming - big no-no. I zoom in using alt-shoft - I assume that most do this rather than using the widget. So, to me, the zoom should centre around where your mouse pointer is. Let's face it, you're zooming in to make an edit generally, so your mouse is over the region of interest. To me by FAR the best option. I vote for option D.

Anyone else? Think about how you use the graph editor and back me up befor it's too late!!!

This is actually how it's done in LW and it works a treat.

Edit: Argh - beat me to it dobermunk! LOL We're both for option D! The only one not listed!

Taron333
04-11-2006, 10:13 AM
A. would be the most flexible and versatile for me since the time slider can easily be relocated. This always worked nicely in After Effects for me too.
...
Cheers,

Hahahaha, already took care of it! Pretty much at least, but that's what we just went for! It's really making the most sense...rest is tynuff (funny translation into english)...

Very cool! :)

Taron333
04-11-2006, 10:15 AM
D. the current mouse position :scream:
Must be possible, right? Otherwise.... err, time slider.


Would be an interesting option, too! It would be exclusive anyway, so why not! We'll have to figure out if there's any other difficulty involved in doing that, but it's a very natural one, too! Good idea. But A. will still be the standart from now on, if you use the little scale gadgets! :p

dobermunk
04-11-2006, 10:25 AM
See? You're on a roll!

(btw this mean mouse will be a custom option?)

DMack
04-11-2006, 11:16 AM
Second Dobermunk on option for system D! I think it's these things that need to be got right. Look at how animation takes place - you scrub through the timeline (why the yellow thing needed to be bigger!), then you zoom in to the area of interest. The way you guys have opted to go means that you'll now have to scrub back through to the area and then zoom in - I don't want to have to do that - the 'over the mouse', option D, IMO is soooooo way ahead of the others from an ergonomics POV.


Why option A? What are the advantages over option D - This seems to be heading in the wrong direction to me.

Edit: Not wanting to sound harsh here - just trying to make sure this part is implemented in the best possible way.....

PaulNewman
04-11-2006, 12:02 PM
I have to dial in my vote of support for option D along with dobermunk and DMack. The other options are not ergonomic, although they should get the job done.

Have any of you worked on the Video Toaster Edit timeline? Talk about an effective way of zooming and panning all in one and relative to current mouse pointer position: hold right mouse and drag horizontal for pan left/right and vertical for zoom in/out or diagonal in any direction to get a combination of actions at once . . .

up = zoom in
down = zoom out
left = pan left
right = pan right
diagonal to top-right = pan right + zoom in
diagonal to bottom-left = pan left + zoom out
etc.

The cool thing is you can easily drag at a slight diagonal to achieve a heavy zoom + slight pan. In other words, dragging in any direction produces a freestyle but controlled effect and there's no keyboard buttons being held down while this is happening.

It takes a few minutes of getting used to and then you FLY, never looking back, super productivity. Since video editing is heavily timeline based, slick navigation is essential.

Video Toaster uses exactly the same technique when navigating in the timeline-based spline editors. Worthwhile checking it out IMO.

DMack
04-11-2006, 01:04 PM
Ok....I'll chip in here (had my lunch so feeling relaxed). I think in essence graph editors should be exactly like modellers (ok bare with me here!)...when you change Keyframes, it's just like editing points on a 2D object. With this in mind, I feel that the graph editor should act like a mainstream modeller - I use LW and Modo so they spring to mind. Awsome ability to pan and zoom around the object...I dold down alt and cntrl to zoom in and out (uses the mouse location to choose centre of zoom) and then if I need to pan a little in any direction, I simply release the cntrl button and I can pan instead of zooming, then back to cntrl and alt and I'm zooming again....it's so quick, easy and intuative - messiah is 99% of the way there - it just needs option D! At the same time, a lot of modeller tools are relevant - stretch, size, pole and all these actions with fall-offs and around a chosen point of reference (mouse, origin, selection) - I don't necessarily think that pop up boxes are necessary - just more clicking. The selection of KF's also needs to be looked at - I'm not sure that it is as intuative or efficient as it could be. This is one area that I really feel needs close attention and fine tuning - it would make a world of difference. I've not got time at the moment but at some stage I might actually look into it and suggest a KF selection system that I feel would be efficient and have people comment - if anyone else feel like having a go - go for it!

ThomasHelzle
04-11-2006, 01:20 PM
Yeah - falloff area for keyframes - very slick idea! Like proportional modeling in XSI. With optional frame-snapping :thumbsup:
Either just Value or Time or both together with a modifier key.

The "2D-modeling" analogy is a good one.
The option to select full curves (click on the line) and not only keyframes would also make sense ("Edges" in modeling). For multicurve view you could establish, that only keys on selected curves can be worked on.

Superb about the zooming. D. is perfect for direct mouse interaction while A. is perfect for gadget interaction. :thumbsup:

Taron, I really thank you for your change of attitude lately.
This can be so much fun if we all work together instead of the uppish "We'll let you know" that drove people away in the dozen.

And you can make people so happy with smaller things - it doesn't always have to be hair ;)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Five thumbs from me!

DMack
04-11-2006, 01:29 PM
OK, may be a bug or I'm not getting something. Can someone confirm :)

Blank scene, create some Keyframes for the camera, on X Y and Z. With Independant Channel set, I can grab keys on say X and with RMB I can move the KF against time - all is well. Now If I grab some KF's from X and say Z and do the same, I'd expect the same effect - moving those two KF's against time but I get erratic results - sometimes KF's are created on every frame for the Y channel as I move the X and Z KF's against time.

Can anyone else re-create this - is it a bug or am I just not geting it?

Edit: I second Thomas on the open and active presence of Taron - it's had the most dramatic effect on this forum that I have ever seen! It's buzzing again with lots of people putting forward cool ideas and suggestions! Just feels so alive after a rather dead period - That alone gives me a LOT of confidence. Thanks Taron for your active and cool attitude!

Five thumbs fro mme aswell!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Labuzz
04-11-2006, 01:41 PM
BUG
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bugfullshaderunilimit0020ge.jpg

dobermunk
04-11-2006, 02:26 PM
At the same time, a lot of modeller tools are relevant - stretch, size, pole and all these actions with fall-offs and around a chosen point of reference

Yeah, I would also prefer to have the keys respond this way. Just select and delete, stretch multiple adjust tension etc. Currently, there are too many settings to adjust before this works. My 2 cents

WesComan
04-11-2006, 03:27 PM
Yeah, I would also prefer to have the keys respond this way. Just select and delete, stretch multiple adjust tension etc. Currently, there are too many settings to adjust before this works. My 2 cents

A really nice thing in XSI is the HLE tool in the motion graph. You create a second curve on top of your motion curve and use it to deform the original curve, very useful for adjusting curves with a lot of keys on them. It's not something that I use often but when I do it saves a huge amount of time.

AAAron
04-12-2006, 09:57 PM
GI light stopped passing trough transparent surfaces in version 2.4 / 2.4b
it still works well in version 2.2.

Anyone to confirm? Here is a small test scene showing the issue, the inner spiral is red in 2.2 but constant black in 2.4 / 2.4b

I will send this directly to pmG to since it is important if you use the renderer.


http://www.savefile.com/files/3389996

stooch
04-12-2006, 10:15 PM
I agree with D as well.

In fact, i feel that everything should be optimized using the general reasoning:

How many times do I have to click to do something? How often do i do this ?

If you perform a function many times over and you have to click 2 times or more to perform it, then there should be some serious consideration as to how one can reduce these actions.

For example, the whole auto scaling setup for the shader node interface require constant adjustment to see all of the field. not just horizontally but vertically as well. In one session the user might have to do this as many as 50-60 times, having to deal with this gets rather annoying rather quick.

Another example of work slowdown is the camera interaction from camera view. Really annoying to navigate when compared to LW or Maya.

Ever tried using the widget on an item while looking through it? notice how when you move it along Z, it just moves you sideways in world coordinates... who would want that? If i click and hold Z while looking through a camera, i expect it to dolly forward or backwards.

etc.

AAAron
04-12-2006, 10:24 PM
Ever tried using the widget on an item while looking through it? notice how when you move it along Z, it just moves you sideways in world coordinates... who would want that? If i click and hold Z while looking through a camera, i expect it to dolly forward or backwards.

There are a nice little workaround to this one use the right mouse button instead.

stooch
04-12-2006, 11:03 PM
well ideally i shouldt even have to use the widget, just use the normal viewport navigation keys to position the item.

MoodyB
04-12-2006, 11:49 PM
GI light stopped passing trough transparent surfaces in version 2.4 / 2.4b
it still works well in version 2.2.

Anyone to confirm? Here is a small test scene showing the issue, the inner spiral is red in 2.2 but constant black in 2.4 / 2.4b


Confirmed here.

Also, if you turn off 'self shadow' on the object, it renders solid. I made a thread about this a few days ago, but not sure if anyone else checked it out....

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=343421

AAAron
04-13-2006, 12:20 AM
Confirmed here.

Also, if you turn off 'self shadow' on the object, it renders solid. I made a thread about this a few days ago, but not sure if anyone else checked it out....

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=343421

Confirmed, but the "self shadow" thing is not new for 2.4/2.4b but exists in 2.2 also.

AlexK
04-13-2006, 08:09 AM
I am not able to confirm those render bugs guys.
Rendered two days ago with 2.4b.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3624/image6gc.jpg
Self-shadowing and GI where enabled. It rendered slow as hell, but worked. If anyone has any ideas by the way how to improve render speed with this image (45 minutes right now) I am all ears. But we should start another thread for this.

I am able to confirm the bug with the scene you posted though AAAron.

MoodyB
04-13-2006, 10:00 AM
What happens to the glass block if you turn off self shadowing Alex ?

ThomasHelzle
04-13-2006, 11:08 AM
Yes, Glass is rendering absurdly slow. Any speed optimizations in that area would really help.
Alex, you could try RayType to give the GI a different material to look at, that renders faster as the Glass - you should be able to get away with just transparency and no reflection and refraction for GI rays depending on your scene and look...
Especially the floor doesn't need to see the full glass, but even for the glass-illumination, a non-glass material may be enough.

And Stooch, your observations about the shader area are definitely valid as well as view/camera navigation. :thumbsup:

Cheers

AlexK
04-13-2006, 12:07 PM
What happens to the glass block if you turn off self shadowing Alex ?
Not much. The image stays pretty much the same.

Thanks for the hints Thomas. I will definitely try that. :beer:

MoodyB
04-13-2006, 02:39 PM
edit - double post

MoodyB
04-13-2006, 02:40 PM
Sorry, my fault for not explaining it properly. An object using transparency that also has ' self shadow ' turned off will not show polygons that are part of the same object - but not attached to the transparent polygons - through the transparent surface, except for shadows strangely. I've attached the scene file for the images below, as pictures are easier to understand than my explanation :p :


( Both these balls are part of the same mesh. I just moved them apart with bones )

Yellow ball 50% transparent / red ball solid / self shadow on / balls not overlapping

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1115/selfshadowbug01jpg6yd.th.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=selfshadowbug01jpg6yd.jpg)


Yellow ball 50% transparent / red ball solid / self shadow on / balls overlapping

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5255/selfshadowbug02jpg5ae.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=selfshadowbug02jpg5ae.jpg)


Yellow ball 50% transparent / red ball solid / self shadow off / balls overlapping

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3779/selfshadowbug03jpg9oc.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=selfshadowbug03jpg9oc.jpg)

stooch
04-13-2006, 02:47 PM
hopefully these speed issues can be solved. I would love to use messiah as my primary liquid rendering app. A connection to realflow would be sweet too :)

Labuzz
04-14-2006, 07:36 AM
BUG
impossible to output or tweak the focal length or the aperture with expressions.

http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bugfocalaperture0012mx.jpg

feature requests :
* horizontal, vertical and diagonal FOV.
* near and far clipping plane with frustum visibility in viewport.

svintaj
04-14-2006, 03:34 PM
You still can't undo "Parenting":banghead:

And I found a Crash-BUG!
Messiah will crash if you undo after chosen an IK-goal in the dropdown-list.
Fastest way to replicate:
Chose the light as the goal in the cameras IK-settings and undo, Crash!

/ Svante

GCL
04-14-2006, 04:17 PM
I can't even open a file!

I can click on the menu tabs but I can't effectively scroll to where I want to go because the scrolling starts from halfway down the list, to load something I'd need to scroll up rather than down & I don't have the screen space.

This doesn't just happen on the file tab, almost everywhere on the interface it's as if my mouse is in a different place to the pointer....I dragged the timeline up & couldn't put it back down again...click on Play-Size-worldview & it jumps straight to 640x480, I can't select anything else.....Output jumps to AVI file & I can't select anything else....

Every single button is like it, I can't use it at all.

I'm using the mouse with my Wacom Intuos3, works fine with every other app but Messiah ain't having it.

Same problem here same tablet. However, I tried this approach and got it fixed !

Using the pen (since it goes where it's supposed to be)

1) Select CUSTOMIZED tab
2) Select KEYCOMMANDMGR
3) Select COMMAND tab
4) Select INTERFACE (open it up)
5) Find INPUT MOUSE
6) Select from list on right a key(s) to use for mouse input
7) Then assign command (Look below where you'll see it - I used CTRL-M)

Afterwards, no problems with mouse. I still have both 2.2 & 2.4 working. Wanted to be sure that this problem resolved before getting rid of 2.2.
Hope this is a solution to our problem(s).

numberEleven
04-15-2006, 06:29 AM
Paul described how you can navigate within the video toaster, and it really sounds like a perfect ergonomic solution for studio's graph.

This somewhat goes back to what Thomas, me, and some others have said about the interface. If we had a horizontal and vertical control of each workspace, worldview, and graph, node block area, messiah would completely, and absolutely, rip. Its really probubly not all that difficult either, just analyse the code for the current 1,2,3,4 block manipulation and figure out how to set up something similiar to be whole package inclusive.

Imagine working with left hand shifting horizontal/vertical dimensions of the blocks that you need, and the right hand on the mouse, toastery graph editing (while mouseOver of) graph editor, timeline, or node editing.

The only time you would need to move the right hand would be to tap the up/down arrow keys to shift obj element selection, or enter some numbers in a field.

I wouldnt worry about tear off windows, docking stuff, any of that to start with, just look at shifting the data windows in, out, up and down, by 1/3, 1/2, 3/4, and whole. Or maybe just 1/3, 3/4 and whole.

Hey, how about, 1, 2, 3, 4, shifts the currently select block layouts like they do presently, and, Alt1, Alt2, Alt3, Alt4 could shift timeline/graph/node up and down vertically?

I dont know. Some sort of hotkey mixture would work pretty nicely. The toasterlike navigation of just mouse movements sounds like it would compliment things to an almost unbelievable fluidity compared to how it currently is.

The only part in this, that I can't visualize at the moment, is how to implement the vertical control of graph/dope/node seperately? Ideally, they should all shift with the same hotkeys, once you have the one you want to work with, and shifting between them, shouldn't be more than a hotkey, and shouldn't change the current amount of screen realestate that is being used there, does that make sense?

It could work out REALLY nicely, and be much easier to whiz through.

I dont know. Good luck. Just wanted to toss more thoughts out there as I'd like to see this application be the best it can be, and it's very close to being very fast.

Thank you again for the most recent updates.

-Garin

rush123
04-15-2006, 03:08 PM
It seems that it is not possible to turn off shadows by using the object shadow block. This is what I did, I placed one sphere and one area light in a scene and rendered, of course you got the sphere casting a shadow. Then I turned off the ‘cast shadows’ and ‘self shadows’ in the object block, nothing changed. The only way to stop the casting shadows is to turn of at the lights, which I don’t want to do. Any ideas?

R

MoodyB
04-15-2006, 04:09 PM
If the object isn't transparent, give the material a bit ( 0.001) of translucency as this will stop it from casting a shadow.

ThomasHelzle
04-15-2006, 04:14 PM
Now that is weird - thanks for the tip! :thumbsup:
Looks like the refraction switch where 1.0 turns calculations completely off so you need to use 1.00001 or so to make it work...
Not too intuitive so to say.

Cheers,

rush123
04-15-2006, 05:11 PM
MoodyB,

thanks for the tip, I was going to use Thomas' Raytype from his TLHPro shaders (which are great) to resolve my problem. I owe you a beer when you come to London. :thumbsup:

edit. That method caused all types of strange artefacts when rendering. But Thomas' Raytype from his TLHPro shaders worked for me. thanks anyway

R

MoodyB
04-15-2006, 06:18 PM
:) I guess we can use this until pmG fix the shadow problem & makes translucency inactive unless the material has a transparency value / texture set.

svintaj
04-15-2006, 07:43 PM
"Mirror" and "Copy" can't be undone!

/ Svante

Taron333
04-15-2006, 09:29 PM
You still can't undo "Parenting":banghead:

And I found a Crash-BUG!
Messiah will crash if you undo after chosen an IK-goal in the dropdown-list.
Fastest way to replicate:
Chose the light as the goal in the cameras IK-settings and undo, Crash!

/ Svante

I don't get that problem? I've tried it in a couple of ways and don't get a crash or even an issue...undo, redo, no problem! Weired.

Taron333
04-15-2006, 09:39 PM
"Mirror" and "Copy" can't be undone!

/ Svante

Yup, all copy or dublication processes generate new objects that you'd have to delete, which is ultimatively just like an undo, but this compromise, even while it's not a great one, keeps the general workflow faster at this point. However, we've been kicking this one around for some time now, because ultimatively we could arrange for an undo that would save and recall entire scene informations and then none of that would be a problem anymore, but everything would be a little more at the speed of most other applications in that regard. I think I wouldn't mind it all that much, because I actually don't undo that much in messiah...only tweaks if any and there's no problem at all. Strange, I know...hmmm...but, yes, don't worry, this is something we have on our mind.

NOW for the good news:

Shadernode list acts beautifully and straight forward now. If you delete the last shadernode in a material it now stays fine within the material and doesn't jump to the next one.

New particle emitter visualisation is accurately representing the particle emission area.

Lightcone angle is viewable and adjustable in object-view mode (looking through light in this case).

...and more things, I think...can't think of it right now...lot's of stuff.

I'm also adding a new particle force, which is quite fun! :D

I'm grabbing the new stuff you've listed now and see that we go through it, too! :wip:

svintaj
04-15-2006, 09:40 PM
I just tryed it again and yes Crash! It happens all the time for me?:shrug:
Did you try to: Chose the light as the goal in the cameras IK-settings then press Ctrl-Z??

/ Svante

Taron333
04-15-2006, 10:07 PM
I just tryed it again and yes Crash! It happens all the time for me?:shrug:
Did you try to: Chose the light as the goal in the cameras IK-settings then press Ctrl-Z??

/ Svante

Yup, no matter what I do, it behaves perfectly, actually. BUT, I'm working with our latest build, which does have a rather noticable amount of changes and fixes again...maybe that fell under it...hmmm...I still have the previous install somewhere...let's see...
OMG, you're right...the 2.4b version does that...how wicked.
Well...

PROBLEM SOLVED, hahahaha...what ever that was. It probably fixed a whole bunch of hidden treasures like that...hehe...traps...sorry about that! Wow, we're ahead of a problem, that's amazing...too bad we were behind a little by the time we released the last one, argh! :argh:

But, it's prettier already, so the next one is yet again :rolleyes: an important step towards ehh...ehh...per..fec..tion...yes, perfection! But well, a step, of course! :cool:

stooch
04-16-2006, 12:15 AM
haha, was that a bushism?

Taron333
04-16-2006, 02:22 AM
haha, was that a bushism?
hahaha...if you're talking about the "ahead" and "behind" thing...guess that would qualify, except that it's been a choice of words in my case! :p

stooch
04-16-2006, 08:00 AM
an important step towards ehh...ehh...per..fec..tion...yes, perfection!

bushism! hehe

ThomasHelzle
04-16-2006, 09:45 AM
Fantastic news Taron. Thank you! :thumbsup:

One thing I noticed when I did the simple test with EasyGlass and Particles here:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3456622#post3456622
is that the circles in the OpenGL view have no real relation to the rendered Blobs.
While I don't expect the metaball behavior in realtime ;) it would be cool if the circles would be closer to the actual size - right now they are much larger most of the time so it is hard to guess how things will look when rendered. Do you think that's possible?

Thank you and the team for your work. :bowdown:

rush123
04-16-2006, 03:31 PM
It appears that you can only see the effects of ‘Raymarching’ if the camera is facing the ground plane. The test I did was to place a sphere and a single light in the scene, the camera was facing front on, 25% ground 75% horizon. Added SpeedHazer, connect SH output colour to colour, add a noise node value to value of SH. Set SH to ‘Raymarching’ and select ‘solid’ and ‘from object’. Could anyone confirm?

R

MoodyB
04-16-2006, 05:58 PM
Taron posted this in another thread, so I guess it's been fixed.

" It currently only renders against objects or ground and not the background, but the upcoming version renders against empty backgrounds as well... ...just like it should've "

PaulNewman
04-16-2006, 06:08 PM
PROBLEM SOLVED, hahahaha...what ever that was. It probably fixed a whole bunch of hidden treasures like that...hehe...traps...sorry about that! Wow, we're ahead of a problem, that's amazing...too bad we were behind a little by the time we released the last one, argh! :argh:

But, it's prettier already, so the next one is yet again :rolleyes: an important step towards ehh...ehh...per..fec..tion...yes, perfection! But well, a step, of course! :cool:
Cause enough perhaps for 2.4c? :)

rush123
04-16-2006, 06:08 PM
Cheers for that MoodyB,

I’ve discovered that if you deselect ‘from object’ it works, how strange is that? I’m really just fumbling around in the dark; I wish Taron would give even some basic info like he did with the ‘grid & wires’ shader when he released that. Sorry for my rant.

Thanks anyway.

MoodyB
04-16-2006, 06:34 PM
I’ve discovered that if you deselect ‘from object’ it works, how strange is that? I’m really just fumbling around in the dark; I wish Taron would give even some basic info like he did with the ‘grid & wires’ shader when he released that. Sorry for my rant.


:)

We could all chip into a fund to have Taron cloned a few times ? :p

MoodyB
04-16-2006, 09:53 PM
Cylindrical texture mapping still has issues :hmm:


Textures are rendered as though they are flipped on the x-axis ( when mapping around Y ) :

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2696/flippedimage9mu.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flippedimage9mu.jpg)


OpenGL textures dont display properly when you set 'Repeat Height' to a value above 0 :

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1593/opengltexprob8hd.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=opengltexprob8hd.jpg)


That is until you give the heading a v small negative value like -0.001 :

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/779/opengltexprob021ez.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=opengltexprob021ez.jpg)


And lastly, rotating the texture on heading affects pitch, and vice versa :

heading at 25

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2613/headingtexprob3nc.th.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=headingtexprob3nc.jpg)


pitch at 25

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1839/pitchtexprob5bi.th.jpg (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pitchtexprob5bi.jpg)

isobarxx
04-18-2006, 11:04 PM
There seems to be a bug with overlapping particles' edges? Notice the sharp blocky edgges below. Each contrail is stacked above the others on Y.

http://tightzilla.com/temp/smokeclouds_250.jpg

Aside from the weird clipping I must say the sub-paticle detail, self shadowing, and diffusion over time look really nice. Here (http://tightzilla.com/temp/smokeclouds.mov)'s the animation.

Taron333
04-19-2006, 11:10 AM
There seems to be a bug with overlapping particles' edges? Notice the sharp blocky edgges below. Each contrail is stacked above the others on Y.

http://tightzilla.com/temp/smokeclouds_250.jpg

Aside from the weird clipping I must say the sub-paticle detail, self shadowing, and diffusion over time look really nice. Here (http://tightzilla.com/temp/smokeclouds.mov)'s the animation.

AH GREAT! I'm just happy I get to see some more stuff being done with the particles!!! I figure you've used several particle systems? I think I had mentioned that somewhere down the threads and posts, but we're still up for the final solution of all particle rendering, which will have a profound effect on the rendering engine, so I believe at least. It makes the renderer behave with multiple particle systems just like it does right now with a single particle system. This not only will 100% prevent the funny clipping that you've encountered (which I thought was out, I'm just a little bit surprised, but not too much), but also make it all render just as fast as it does with one system alone. What you could do, if you wanted to, you could make something I had done already. Use an object as emitter that has as many single polygons (or geometrie pieces) as how ever many emitters you'd like to have and then animate them using bones for instance. Those geometry pieces or single polygons would then act as emitters for a single particle system. It would act like multiple systems, but keeps the benefit of running just one. I'd be then completely shocked if it would show any funky artifacts! :eek:

VERY COOL, Though!!! I'm still thrilled and it also looks pretty good!!! :thumbsup:

Taron333
04-19-2006, 11:13 AM
And lastly, rotating the texture on heading affects pitch, and vice versa :

heading at 25

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2613/headingtexprob3nc.th.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=headingtexprob3nc.jpg)


pitch at 25

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1839/pitchtexprob5bi.th.jpg (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pitchtexprob5bi.jpg)

Solved! Also the difference in orientation between cylindrical and spherical mapping is solved!
OpenGL texture displace is always a funky thing, for whatever reason?! I wished I knew more about that myself, but then with all the different gfx boards and even the differences between models and drivers, it just has to be a real rear-ache. So, I really can't say anything about the openGL stuff. But the rest is in order now! :wip:

Taron333
04-19-2006, 11:20 AM
Fantastic news Taron. Thank you! :thumbsup:

One thing I noticed when I did the simple test with EasyGlass and Particles here:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3456622#post3456622
is that the circles in the OpenGL view have no real relation to the rendered Blobs.
While I don't expect the metaball behavior in realtime ;) it would be cool if the circles would be closer to the actual size - right now they are much larger most of the time so it is hard to guess how things will look when rendered. Do you think that's possible?

Thank you and the team for your work. :bowdown:

UH, yeah, yessa, yup, that's not only true, but COINCIDENTLY exactly something I was just dealing with. I mean, I'm playing with metablobs righ....no, no I'm not playing, I'm working hard...yes...and..ah...well, so as I said, I'm making some important tests with the metablobs right now myself, also adding forces that would lead towards the use of them. As we've examined the results we also found one other little issue with their shadows, which I believe we have fixed now, I'll check tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure!

Yes, openGL and metablobs...hmmm....I wonder. Maybe there's a "simple" approach in 2d for the openGL display to at least outline them a bit more true to their shape. I don't know, yet, we'll have to talk about that internally. I'm 100% behind that thought, that's for sure. Funny that I have to repeat that in the very next post I'm writing, but I really wished I knew more about openGL to help us out there, too. We'll see. But this one is more than noted, too!

Oh, and thanx, Thomas!!! I really appreciate it a lot! :cool:

Taron333
04-19-2006, 11:45 AM
Taron posted this in another thread, so I guess it's been fixed.

" It currently only renders against objects or ground and not the background, but the upcoming version renders against empty backgrounds as well... ...just like it should've "

Yeah, the threads madness, it's all a little scattered right now...snippits everywhere. And I truely believe that there's very little order and my little attempt to introduce it by adding a "little particle" thread only made it worse... :argh: :rolleyes:

Anyway, thanx so much for the great cross-thread-support there...hehe... :thumbsup:

Yes, the speedHazer is fixed and so is something else we had deep inside the engine, which didn't show much earlier...it's funny how things like that happen. But GREAT! :D


Here are some older clips I had done during the creation of the SpeedHazer...
SpeedHazer_sm01.avi (DivX) (http://www.projectmessiah.com/~taron/Clips/SpeedHazer_sm01.avi) (this one shows solid volume rendering with noisette and basicShader attached for shading the volume!)

SpeedHazer_rm01.mov (Quicktime) (http://www.projectmessiah.com/~taron/Clips/SpeedHazer_rm01.mov) (this is just fog with raymarching and a goofy little robot-leg I did real quick to show a friend..hehe..wicked expressions for the mechanisms, too, but not too careful.)

PaulNewman
04-19-2006, 01:07 PM
Thanks!

Nice examples! :thumbsup:

Could you perhaps post the scenes too?

rush123
04-19-2006, 02:03 PM
Taron,

Thanks for the SpeedHazer examples, and if at all possible an explanation of the inputs would be so helpful.

Again thanks.

R

MoodyB
04-19-2006, 06:05 PM
Solved! Also the difference in orientation between cylindrical and spherical mapping is solved!
OpenGL texture displace is always a funky thing, for whatever reason?! I wished I knew more about that myself, but then with all the different gfx boards and even the differences between models and drivers, it just has to be a real rear-ache. So, I really can't say anything about the openGL stuff. But the rest is in order now! :wip:

Nice :thumbsup: I'm personally not too worried about the OpenGL issues as I hardly ever use them ( came across the display problem by accident )

Thanks for the Speedhazer vids. Good to get a glimpse of that it's capable of ( 1st movie more than the 2nd one )

Taron333
04-19-2006, 11:40 PM
Taron,

Thanks for the SpeedHazer examples, and if at all possible an explanation of the inputs would be so helpful.

Again thanks.

R

Sure, although it will be in the shader docs (eventually, argh), here's a little bit of info:

Opacity - it's what it always is, of course...(overall "alpha" of the shader)

Value - it's now called Density, I've renamed it for the next version. This is where you would hook in the textures, like procedurals for instance (noise, noisette, AoN things, but also any form of density source like meta-effectors or textures...anything)

Shading - this is where you hook in actual shading nodes like the basicShader for instance. When ever the density threshold is reached to determin the shell or surface of your volume, it also generates normals, which will then get passed to the attached node (basicShader) to get shaded by lighting, reflections, anything you'd want it to look like. This is what will make the solid volume appear like geometry. Translucency won't work with it really that well, though, because it still is just virtual geometry, so to say...but extending of the lighting to get part of the translucent effect does work fine...but, uhm, let me know if you find it necessary and I'll see what I can do.

Min and Max - those inputs can modulate (or set) the min and max distance settings for further definition or animation of these values!

Threshold - modulate (or set) the threshold that you want for the density readout. Kind of curious to make that texturable, too...it allows for a different access to the control of the solid volume shape and animation.

Density - now called Global Density...adjusting the overall density through animation or texturing...I am not completely sure why I was even putting that in, but I really figured: why not!

Top and Fade Top just like Bottom and Fade Bottom allow the texturing of these parameters, which could localize different heights and feathering of the volume...tricky one to think about. Using Y mapped texturemaps or meta effectors would be mostly recommendable for that. It's the "control-freak" parameter set...hihi....one for me for instance.

Random - Ah...funny...I guess I made it so you could texture the random offset of the raymarch sampling....why? Hmm...keep it organic under your percisely defined circumstances....more control-freak things! :D

Well, so much for the overview!

The next release is coming closer, so you can savely get used to the new input naming (value-density, density-global density)

rush123
04-20-2006, 07:40 AM
Many thanks Taron.

R

jbecana
04-20-2006, 06:30 PM
Hi,
now that I found this thread want to add a little old timer bug. I don't now how to repeat it, but happened to me a couple of times in previous versions.

http://www.lucesdebohemia.com/JB/Tmp/MessiahBug01.jpg

dispite this funky list, you can select a group, but always the same group, I believe it's the primary group, not sure.

Good luck.

ThomasHelzle
04-20-2006, 10:40 PM
Taron, can something be done to finally get the procedural objects in a working state?
I have no clue what the problem is with them, but if they can't be fixed once and for all, could they be removed from messiah or replaced by simple poly objects?
This is such an old "Trauerspiel" since everybody tries to use them for rendertests and is getting errors like in this thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=347020

Good luck, young skywalker ;)

DMack
04-21-2006, 09:40 AM
I've had that Group, Group, Group list problem aswell. Hope that's been fixed....

Taron333
04-21-2006, 12:06 PM
Taron, can something be done to finally get the procedural objects in a working state?
I have no clue what the problem is with them, but if they can't be fixed once and for all, could they be removed from messiah or replaced by simple poly objects?
This is such an old "Trauerspiel" since everybody tries to use them for rendertests and is getting errors like in this thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=347020

Good luck, young skywalker ;)

HAHAHA, do you have secret microphones hidden in our offices? That's just weired, man!
Fori and I had been talking about that a few weeks ago. We've looked into that section and found some wacky stuff...the mapping for all types appears to exist, but the intersection routines where never written. So we've actually talked about exactly what you're saying to maybe just replace the with polygon objects, which would make them also completely compatible with all the shading, or really just to remove them. Funny.
I really don't think they're necessary unless they are shapes for the metablobs, which would be funny then...but just like that, unless they were working with backsides, there's no use for having them.
It's not the top priority and we havn't yet made a decision, but it's definitely a topic. Maybe we just drop them until we know what we want to do.

Thanx for the reminder, though. But it's really freaky...very strange. :eek:

ThomasHelzle
04-21-2006, 01:05 PM
Great! :thumbsup:

It is good to know that you have the same concerns.
IMO the procedural objects are the most abdicable feature of messiah, especially since they don't really work in the only situation they would be convenient for - fast simple render tests.

The "Ground" surface in the camera is a fantastic timesaver, but the procedural objects have little use IMO.
Replacing them with polygon objects from an "objects" folder in the "modules\defaults" hierarchy could be a nice way to have basic custom objects right at hand, but even removing them completely and never talk about them again would be fine with me ;)

I am very happy that you finally go in with the knife to get rid of the irritations! :applause:

Thank you for your response.

Cheers,

dobermunk
04-21-2006, 02:44 PM
IMO the procedural objects are the most abdicable feature of messiah, especially since they don't really work in the only situation they would be convenient for - fast simple render tests.

I had the impression that they were originally there as shpaed nulls for rigs. They also had some projection mapping funstions. But you're right - they have to work in renders.

Cool to see these things being taken care of.

ThomasHelzle
04-21-2006, 03:13 PM
You are right - now I remember.

For rigs I don't think they are really "important" - don't know, never used them.

The mapping is a different topic. I personally find it absolutely weird to use them for mapping or weighting, since they are "visible objects". From day one I thought this to be the wrong way to go.

- For mapping, a visual cue with a grid in openGL (similar to Cinema 4D for instance) would be way more helpful. I would love to see it implemented in a way, that as soon as a texture map node is active, it's accompanying "texture grid" shows up in the world view (as a plane, a cylinder or a sphere etc.). It should show rotation/scaling and position - direct manipulation would be killer but I could live without it. In Cinema 4D, mapping was so easy since you were able to see your mapping in space and manipulate it like any other object.
The procedural objects try to do the same, but are somehow weird and don't feel right to me - they live in a different "space" from rendering.
I don't think anyone likes them?

- For weighting I find metaeffectors okay, but procedurals weird again. In the end - give me good weightmap support for rigging and rendering and I will be all fine. ;)
Since this feature is needed in messiah anyway to make it a considered tool in games or many other pipelines, it would be a AAA priority for me.
And don't get me wrong - I don't talk about replacing the current "non-weights rigging" with making weightmaps mandatory for everything, but for certain riggs, all games and also rendering, per-point weightmaps are very useful or simply needed.

Just my half a dime :)

Cheers,

dobermunk
04-21-2006, 04:31 PM
- For weighting I find metaeffectors okay, but procedurals weird again. In the end - give me good weightmap support for rigging and rendering and I will be all fine. ;)
Amen. Alone for soft-body effects. you just can't do nooks and crannies with meta-effectors and remain sane.

dobermunk
04-23-2006, 08:20 PM
Not sure if this is a bug or a request:
when you make a preview, the camera aperture is ignored. I know there are codec determined proportion issues for the avis - but could we have at least the greyed in aperture mask in the preview?

David

MoodyB
04-25-2006, 10:00 AM
When using a procedural as a 'tool' mapping type for a texture - i.e as a simple reference object - it will not recognise any motion changes on the object the texture is applied to from its loaded-in position / rotation ( this REALLY tested my patience last night :banghead: )

I've attached an mpj showing the problem. Use these steps to replicate it :

Go to frame 97 and render. Remember where the black box is shown on the road surface

Now rotate the Road object 180 on heading and move it -4 on z ( doesnt matter whether you do this in animate or setup mode, the result's the same ) Now render again. It's still in the same position, nowhere near where the actual procedural object is :hmm:

Taron333
04-25-2006, 11:47 AM
Not sure if this is a bug or a request:
when you make a preview, the camera aperture is ignored. I know there are codec determined proportion issues for the avis - but could we have at least the greyed in aperture mask in the preview?

David
Hmmm...that's interesting. I would see how the frame format could be restricted, but the camera's zoom and/or aperture should at least be covered. I like the idea of an optional mask! Good call!

Thanx! :thumbsup:

Taron333
04-25-2006, 11:59 AM
When using a procedural as a 'tool' mapping type for a texture - i.e as a simple reference object - it will not recognise any motion changes on the object the texture is applied to from its loaded-in position / rotation ( this REALLY tested my patience last night :banghead: )

I've attached an mpj showing the problem. Use these steps to replicate it :

Go to frame 97 and render. Remember where the black box is shown on the road surface

Now rotate the Road object 180 on heading and move it -4 on z ( doesnt matter whether you do this in animate or setup mode, the result's the same ) Now render again. It's still in the same position, nowhere near where the actual procedural object is :hmm:


Was that supposed to work? Are you sure about the whole tool-mapping idea? It doesn't sound exactly right to me, but I saw a mapping section in connection with the procedurals, that's true. I even saw mappings for all the types, now that you mention that. Hmmm...we are currently thinking about tossing the procedural objects until further notice, but the mapping thing...hmmm.... Besides, I need to make a TextureDefrom tutorial, too, because this really allows wicked custom mapping of any texture and works under guaranty with no odd dependency to previously mysterious developments.
In the meantime our clean-up continues and your post now makes me think about looking at the procedurals one more time before we continue with our idea of tossing them. In some odd way, we could do the polygon object replacement concept for rendering them, but retain the mapping tool they may represent. Which then would also definitely make us ensure that it acts correctly as such.

Just one tiny little hint for you what you can do if you want to move around a texture with a reference object. Just use Texturedeform. Hook textureDeform in between your shader and your material, or where ever you had the shader connected to. Just watch out that you really use the same kind of output that you've chosen for an input (color (in) -> color (out), value (in) -> value (out)). I've made them separate for a good reason. You can modify multiple textures with a single textureDeform node. Like a color and a bump for example and so forth....it's rather convenient I found.

I hope that was at least a little bit of a help for you...sorry about the funny and strange corner you maneuvered yourself into there...we'll take care of it one way or another, no worries. :wip:

Taron333
04-25-2006, 12:20 PM
You are right - now I remember.

For rigs I don't think they are really "important" - don't know, never used them.

The mapping is a different topic. I personally find it absolutely weird to use them for mapping or weighting, since they are "visible objects". From day one I thought this to be the wrong way to go.


Yeah, you know, I was kinda surprised to read that anyone even tried that. I had no idea that was the idea...I know that's funny, but I believe that this was one of them weired concepts that we weren't fully aware of. It might have been some kind of general idea for a use of tools within shading or so. It might be interesting, but then, too, what for really...wacky experiments mostly, I would figure. Using the curves for mapping is a lot more interesting, and I do remember that that has worked...but I was never too fond of curves anyway, because they are rather tricky to handle at times (rotational things)....but that's just me.



- For mapping, a visual cue with a grid in openGL (similar to Cinema 4D for instance) would be way more helpful. I would love to see it implemented in a way, that as soon as a texture map node is active, it's accompanying "texture grid" shows up in the world view (as a plane, a cylinder or a sphere etc.). It should show rotation/scaling and position - direct manipulation would be killer but I could live without it. In Cinema 4D, mapping was so easy since you were able to see your mapping in space and manipulate it like any other object.
The procedural objects try to do the same, but are somehow weird and don't feel right to me - they live in a different "space" from rendering.
I don't think anyone likes them?


Yup, like it. It's the whole visualisation issue that we're having ahead of us. It's far more than just this one, but it would go straight to the list of things to remember! While it's exactly this kind of thing that makes me worry about eventual impatience again. We're crunching our way through everything and some things may not happen as early as others. As long as the whole user crew gets to exploit the things we are doing for them, it'll all progress just nicely. I just don't want people to start going: "Oh yeah, I've read about that request, why arn't they doing that, I guess they don't do nothing..." hehe.... you know, that's what I'm worried about. I think it's time to just hold back a little bit or pile up a new secret stash...or just send some of those ideas to me privately. Oddly enough, you're wishes were so far not just next to 100% like mine, but also easily 80% of what we've currently been dealing with. I leave out 20%, because most new visual feedback elements are coming a little later and will have such a great impact on the whole package, despite the fact that Fori was already hooking up some visual helpers for the particle emitters of course...


- For weighting I find metaeffectors okay, but procedurals weird again. In the end - give me good weightmap support for rigging and rendering and I will be all fine. ;)
Since this feature is needed in messiah anyway to make it a considered tool in games or many other pipelines, it would be a AAA priority for me.
And don't get me wrong - I don't talk about replacing the current "non-weights rigging" with making weightmaps mandatory for everything, but for certain riggs, all games and also rendering, per-point weightmaps are very useful or simply needed.

Just my half a dime :)

Cheers,

I recently had some troubles with the weightspot, but in very outlandish circumstances, yet, enough to trigger my desire to look into them a little deeper, too. However, yes, yes, yes and double yes, the weightmap support is a must that we partially had already. I thought we would have it fully in again...not sure...but however, there's a slight potential, as far as i can tell, that we could in theory make some weight painting possible in the nearer future. We (as usual by now) were talking about that already, too, of course, but that's already a few months back and was in connection with a different development we were starting with.

Useful is to me enough of an arguement to claim that it is needed, hahaha! But I actually mean that, too. If something is truely useful, it means that it has a genuine purpose and would be needed to help with a proper workflow. And workflow's almost everything. You can always noodle yourself to death with wicked workarounds, but you don't need any specific software to punish yourself like that. I like the idea a lot and I can totally understand how games actually need it (currently). In the future things will look differently, I can absolutely promiss you that, but it would still make the weighmaps useful. So....good point! Thanx AGAIN! :lightbulb

By the way, after people were talking about their confusion about the "SpeedHazer" and it's ability to deal with solid volume, I've decided to outsource a portion of it and call it "Voxelini", because it does such magical things...hihihi....SpeedHazer still retains the potential and all the same features as it has them now, but the specialized Voxelini will come with a few more specific features. :)

MoodyB
04-25-2006, 12:48 PM
Was that supposed to work? Are you sure about the whole tool-mapping idea? It doesn't sound exactly right to me, but I saw a mapping section in connection with the procedurals, that's true. I even saw mappings for all the types, now that you mention that.

I hope it was supposed to work, as there was no other obvious way of using a reference object to animate a textures position. Anyway I managed to get it to work using weightspot and it'll do for now.


Just one tiny little hint for you what you can do if you want to move around a texture with a reference object. Just use Texturedeform. Hook textureDeform in between your shader and your material, or where ever you had the shader connected to. Just watch out that you really use the same kind of output that you've chosen for an input (color (in) -> color (out), value (in) -> value (out)). I've made them separate for a good reason. You can modify multiple textures with a single textureDeform node. Like a color and a bump for example and so forth....it's rather convenient I found.

I hope that was at least a little bit of a help for you...sorry about the funny and strange corner you maneuvered yourself into there...we'll take care of it one way or another, no worries. :wip:

Thanks Taron this should help quite a bit.

rush123
04-25-2006, 01:03 PM
" By the way, after people were talking about their confusion about the "SpeedHazer" and it's ability to deal with solid volume, I've decided to outsource a portion of it and call it "Voxelini", because it does such magical things...hihihi....SpeedHazer still retains the potential and all the same features as it has them now, but the specialized Voxelini will come with a few more specific features."

Taron,
As someone who has been wrestling with ‘Speed Hazer’ and struggling to get solid volumes from it, I can at least attribute some of my problems to using the procedural shapes, which made testing quick but inconsistent and floored (my bad!). I’ve being trying unsuccessfully to produce a shape out of haze. But this might be possible in ‘Voxelini’ is this the case?

Cheers
R

MoodyB
04-25-2006, 02:28 PM
This might be a gfx card driver issue rather than a Studio bug, but right clicking on the icons for diffuse / specular in the lights block of a surface does disable the diff / spec, but it doesn't change the icon to the ' ghosted ' version.

stooch
04-25-2006, 06:49 PM
Some hugely annoying bugs, alot of them are old news and are long overdue for a fix:

-If im working on setup mode, and have a null selected, i cant select a bone in perspective view until i click on another bone in the item list.

-why is it that when i move my mouse over items in animate mode, they highlight allowing for precise selection, but in setup mode they dont, often resulting in wrong items being selected. The fact that then i cant re select an adjacent item because of the widget makes things even worse!

-cant click on bones under the widget. speaking about the widget, how about adding a handle for scale, in general id love to see very clear handles for move, rotate and scale. the middle handle should always allow freemove/rotate (think silo). Currently the widget is very awkward to operate on, im also not seeing the new fangled highlight features when moving my mouse over the various widget elements.

-when i have my widget enabled, its elements should always hve the top priority, currently if i have an adjacent armature near or under the widget, the armature takes precedent. I feel that the widget elements should have the precedent at all times! (im not talking about the shaded circle either, that should be transparent as far as selection is concerned)

-i can replicate the stupid list scrolling bug that forces you to scroll to the bottom of the list. Try replacing an item with a layered object, when it pops up the prompt to select a layer, it will always forcibly scroll you to the bottom of the list the first time you click on it.

-selecting items in the lists is also a pain in the ass because they are unsorted alphabetically. In fact, the whole selection scheme should be rethought, instead of dragging through hundreds of items i would love to have a search string input and automatically have it highlight the closest matching item name string as you type it in. Huge time saver here.

-when i type in a space in an item name, it automatically inserts an underscore. the expression editor however lacks this feature, can i ask what the reasoning behind this is? i mean, chances are if im typing it an item name, i would want it to match an existing item name, which will always have an underscore instead of a space.

-if you scale down the item list, the tabs on the bottom get overlapped. What does "blocks autofit" do? I have yet to see this feature in action.

-cant search and replace in expressions.

-reloading the same scene still causes a crash.

-sbd collision detection is broken.

WesComan
04-25-2006, 10:54 PM
Some hugely annoying bugs, alot of them are old news and are long overdue for a fix:

-If im working on setup mode, and have a null selected, i cant select a bone in perspective view until i click on another bone in the item list.

Strange, I don't have that problem.

-why is it that when i move my mouse over items in animate mode, they highlight allowing for precise selection, but in setup mode they dont, often resulting in wrong items being selected. The fact that then i cant re select an adjacent item because of the widget makes things even worse!

Have you turned on Animate Immediate In All Modes (right click Animate tab)? To select items within the edit sphere you can use the old method of middle click.

-cant click on bones under the widget. speaking about the widget, how about adding a handle for scale, in general id love to see very clear handles for move, rotate and scale. the middle handle should always allow freemove/rotate (think silo). Currently the widget is very awkward to operate on, im also not seeing the new fangled highlight features when moving my mouse over the various widget elements.

Selecting bones as above...middle click. The handles for scale are turned off by default ('cos they aren't animated very often), all of the channels can be hidden/unhidden by right clicking the little 'key' circle on the motion block (but to be fair, unhiding the scale handles doesn't help much, it especially conflicts with Animate Immediate). Highlighting on teh edit sphere is turned on in Edit->KeyFrame Editing->Edit Sphere


-selecting items in the lists is also a pain in the ass because they are unsorted alphabetically. In fact, the whole selection scheme should be rethought, instead of dragging through hundreds of items i would love to have a search string input and automatically have it highlight the closest matching item name string as you type it in. Huge time saver here.

Move the cursor over the list and type the first letter of the item you want to find. If there are multiples it will step through each one alphabetically.

Hope these little tips help :)

stooch
04-25-2006, 11:00 PM
ok that does help tremendously. i guess the biggest bug here is the lack of documentation,
and why the F are the options for the edit sphere in the EDIT block??? what about customize? not very intuitive.

kvernon
04-26-2006, 11:32 AM
I've been having an issue with distant lights and raytracing. Can anyone confirm this?

It seems that it doesn't want to cast a shadow or pass light when going through glass. Example... If there is a room with a window, the light doesn't pass through the window. I have to hide the window object for light to pass through the area.

Sincerely,

Kelly

MoodyB
04-26-2006, 12:17 PM
I'll check this for you in a bit

Kind of related I suppose, I have had M:S go funky in the scene I'm working on when I have 10 raytraced lights ( distant and point ) active and casting shadows. When rendering, the memory useage goes through the roof - climbs from the scene's normal 1.3gig to over 2gig in about 10 to 15secs - then it either crashes with the usual Windows error box or disappears from my desktop. I'll need to try and recreate the crash in a smaller standalone scene.

I've also had Studio crashing when I try to save after clearing multiple layered objects ( 10+ ) from the same scene, so it could be something funky in the way I have it set up that's causing the problems :hmm:

AAAron
04-26-2006, 12:51 PM
I've been having an issue with distant lights and raytracing. Can anyone confirm this?

It seems that it doesn't want to cast a shadow or pass light when going through glass. Example... If there is a room with a window, the light doesn't pass through the window. I have to hide the window object for light to pass through the area.

Sincerely,

Kelly

Transmissive shadows turned on for the window object in the surface tab?

kvernon
04-26-2006, 06:56 PM
AAAron,

Good idea. I'll double check when I can get back to the project to see if the windows are set to transmissive shadows. I'll report back later on that.


UPDATE:: I checked it out, and AAAron, you were right. Thank you very much!


Warmly,

Kelly

ThomasHelzle
04-27-2006, 09:32 AM
Taron, thank you very much for the feedback. :thumbsup:

I see your problems and concerns, but it makes all the difference for me to see you think out loud about them.
You have quite a lot on your plate to clean up and it will not be possible to do that to everybody's liking in a short time.
Yes, there will be some complaints but they have been there all the time anyway.
IMO, you have nothing to loose, but a lot to win.
I personally enjoy reading about your thoughts and internal discussions and feel a lot more insured that messiah may become the piece of software it always earned to be.
Not tomorrow, maybe not this year, but I'm in no hurry as long as it is done right and I can see and understand what's going on.

The old way didn't work, that's for sure.

Alles Gute beim Ausmisten der Ställe des Augias ;)

Best Regards,

stooch
04-27-2006, 04:13 PM
Shnell!

lol thats the only word i know in german.

Geco
04-27-2006, 04:30 PM
Shnell!

lol thats the only word i know in german.Schnell! :)
Alles Gute beim Ausmisten der Ställe des Augias means: best wishes with the clearing of this very dirt place

ThomasHelzle
04-27-2006, 04:42 PM
Well, actually it is one of the adventures from the hercules saga, when the hero has to clean out those stables of the ancient king Augias...

Cheers, :wavey:

Geco
04-27-2006, 04:50 PM
so i was not totally wrong :)

back to the bugs:
can someone take a look at this?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=351042
thanks

THUR
04-30-2006, 09:24 AM
anyone felt like the rotation of a object,bone or null is acting strange when changing direction? ( since editsphere extra ) Weird and verry frustrating when animating a entire day! Forced to do some of the rotations in the graphic editor by grabbing the keys on the curve helps ... but a silly and timeconsuming workaround! concidering I worked with messiah way before the stand alone version arrived and never before found such a frustrating bug!

help!
:-)
THUR

ISeeTheStars
04-30-2006, 03:18 PM
hey

maybe a bug, maybe not
but image sequence aplied as image in spotlight (projected image?) doesnt show a sequence .. only first frame

Cya

Taron333
04-30-2006, 06:19 PM
anyone felt like the rotation of a object,bone or null is acting strange when changing direction? ( since editsphere extra ) Weird and verry frustrating when animating a entire day! Forced to do some of the rotations in the graphic editor by grabbing the keys on the curve helps ... but a silly and timeconsuming workaround! concidering I worked with messiah way before the stand alone version arrived and never before found such a frustrating bug!

help!
:-)
THUR

Well, it certainly is putting you close to the edge, I can tell! :argh:
What's happening exactly?
I noticed some challenges in the new behavior myself...while in some cases it's just great, in other cases it's just weired. One of which is the strange pro/con situation, that bone handles are now in priority over the editSphere. As a result, if you happen to have a bone that points exactly along the viewing direction (length handle lines up with center of ES), grabbing the center appears to be doing nothing, while in fact it is adjusting the length of the bone.... ....that's no good and will have to be different. We're currently thinking about additional hotkey support for adjusting things, so you can better define what you want to do.
The other thing I noticed is that sometimes when you grab a rotationhandle you are required to scrub into a direction that may make sense, but it feels unclear why another direction would not work just as well. This other direction then may even cause funny ES behavior, if only for the moments you're trying to force it that way.

But go ahead, please, describe what your problems are with it! :hmm:

DMack
05-01-2006, 05:23 PM
I was using 5.4 (admitedly not 5.4b) the other day and I had that issue of dollying in and out in perspective mode taking an absolute age (loads and loads of pen movement to get little change in distance from the area of interest) with a pen. Can anyone else conform that this is also still giving them problems. I know there was significant debate over this issue so I was expecting some change when 5.4 came out. Am I still doing something wrong or is this a sw issue that needs ironing out?

Taron, any comments?

Taron333
05-04-2006, 08:42 AM
I was using 5.4 (admitedly not 5.4b) the other day and I had that issue of dollying in and out in perspective mode taking an absolute age (loads and loads of pen movement to get little change in distance from the area of interest) with a pen. Can anyone else conform that this is also still giving them problems. I know there was significant debate over this issue so I was expecting some change when 5.4 came out. Am I still doing something wrong or is this a sw issue that needs ironing out?

Taron, any comments?

I can only guess what you mean by that and still don't know if I'm right?! :eek:
You're saying you need to move the pen over and over in order to shove an object into the position you want?! :shrug:
I can't really confirm it, because although I do have a pen, I only use it for painting and zbrushing and therefore also have it set to absolute coordinates as opposed to relative, like a mouse for instance. So I really prefer the mouse for all animation and other editing situations. Besides that I'm also using Studio at it's latest version. But I'm afraid that has nothing to do with your issue?!

Sorry, if I don't have anything better to say... :sad:

But you should see me working with mouse and pen, it's very natural...not that it should be a must, I'm just very comfortable with it....give it a try, why don't you! :bounce: :arteest:

THUR
05-04-2006, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarron

But go ahead, please, describe what your problems are with it! :hmm:



Hey Tarron,

-well, rotation always worked super fine in all previous messiah versions ... is it possible 2 fix it back? :-)

Another question is: will the keypopup (with multiple options like: selected, al items, ect ... = like in lightwave ) ever return? It is allready several versions of messiah missing.
It's a very helpfull option for a animator.

Last question: I once send you a file ( hairsimulation with spherize & softbody ), if you remember? Did something grow out of that? ( just curious )

Grts,
THUR

DMack
05-04-2006, 08:04 PM
Thanks for the reply Taron. I'll work on it a little longr and may get back to you - it seems to be behaving rather well all of a sudden (or I've got better settings??)

Anyway - thanks for the reply.

stooch
05-10-2006, 02:11 PM
2.4c realflow object sequence problems:

ok, i just tried loading a realflow lwo sequence and everything seems fine except no meshes show up when i scrub??? I enabled lock object to frame and turned on object replacement mode. any ideas?

p.s. my mesh sequence starts with 1001, but i made sure to scrub around frame 1000 in messiah, in case the object sequence name affects where its placed...

here is a snippet of the object sequence im trying to play with, i tried to load this snippet as well and i didnt see anything:

http://www.stooch.net/misc/Sequence.zip

AAAron
05-10-2006, 03:58 PM
2.4c realflow object sequence problems:

ok, i just tried loading a realflow lwo sequence and everything seems fine except no meshes show up when i scrub??? I enabled lock object to frame and turned on object replacement mode. any ideas?

p.s. my mesh sequence starts with 1001, but i made sure to scrub around frame 1000 in messiah, in case the object sequence name affects where its placed...

here is a snippet of the object sequence im trying to play with, i tried to load this snippet as well and i didnt see anything:

http://www.stooch.net/misc/Sequence.zip

Got it to work but no lock object to frame, just object replacement mode turned on. My licence is rendering right now but Iīll send you my file later tonight

maks
05-10-2006, 04:21 PM
Works fine here. Slow, but meshes show up when I scrub, and the "Lock Sequence To Frame Numbers" button works as well - when unchecked the sequence plays from frame 0, otherwise from 1001. :)

ThomasHelzle
05-10-2006, 05:40 PM
Has anyone got Caustics to work (or at least do show up at all)?

I remember testing them years ago when they were very buggy but at least something happened - now I get nothing but "calculate Photons" in the commandline - the image is absolutely equal to the image without cuastics, equal how high I turn Caustics Intensity or the other parameters.

Basically it is a scene with a glass and a spotlight that I try to debug for rush123...

Thanks for any hint.

:bowdown:

rush123
05-10-2006, 05:57 PM
Thomas,

I've sent you a caustic file that I’ve used for testing that appears to work.

R

stooch
05-10-2006, 05:58 PM
Got it to work but no lock object to frame, just object replacement mode turned on. My licence is rendering right now but Iīll send you my file later tonight

yeah well its not working for me. so clearly there is an issue.

can you outline the steps you took to get it to work? maybe im doing something wrong.

rush123
05-10-2006, 06:10 PM
stooch,

A file was posted in the thread below:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=342742&highlight=caustics

R

AAAron
05-10-2006, 06:12 PM
Imported your seq, added a dmorph in setup mode, turned on replacement object, got in to animate mode and started scrubbing. Could it be a video card issue? Are the files on a local or network drive? What operating system are you using, I use XP service pack 2 with a gforce 5200.

stooch
05-10-2006, 06:25 PM
Imported your seq, added a dmorph in setup mode, turned on replacement object, got in to animate mode and started scrubbing. Could it be a video card issue? Are the files on a local or network drive? What operating system are you using, I use XP service pack 2 with a gforce 5200.

i did the same thing. i know that its not working because messiah doesnt look like its doing anything. No slowdown or any effort whatsoever.

the files are stored on my C drive. my project folder in on d drive. but i didnt htink that would makea difference?? also its windows xp sp2 with a Quadro FX 4400xgl

ThomasHelzle
05-10-2006, 06:41 PM
Thomas,

I've sent you a caustic file that I’ve used for testing that appears to work.

R
You are right: After half an hour I found our that the disk size of the light can't be zero - otherwise you don't get caustics :banghead:

It is working now...

Thank you Ray!

Thomas

stooch
05-10-2006, 07:11 PM
ok i got the object to show up. im not sure how i did it, but i did add a search path into file tab that points to the mesh folder.

now i have another problem. its horribly sslow. SLLLLOOOOOWWWWWW.. unusably slow.

why? it seems that messiah runs extremely fast with much heavier geometry then my sequences, so why is it so slow to even navigate around the viewport??? I have like the fastest video card on the market too.

stooch
05-10-2006, 07:30 PM
got the mesh to load. but if i scrub the playhead a bit and hit F9, i get the following:

actually scratch that, load scene - hit F9 - crash.

ThomasHelzle
05-10-2006, 07:37 PM
It is extremely slow here too. But it didn't crash.

Cheers,

stooch
05-10-2006, 07:50 PM
im working with 400 mesh objects rather then a small snippet. maybe the larger number of meshes causes instability? also, can the speed issue be addressed with caching to ram?

jgj
05-11-2006, 06:08 PM
Here's something that's been around for a while.... I'm still not sure if it's merely due to the recent changes in M:S, or a real bug, or what. Since 2.4c still does it, I wanted to mention it again in the hope I can find out either how to correct the problem, or if it's a bug, so it doesn't perhaps get overlooked in all the other developments (which are most impressive and great to see, btw.)

The two attached images and .mpj show the issue......

-Jim

ThomasHelzle
05-11-2006, 10:11 PM
May that be related to the disk size of your light? This was introduced in 2.4b I think - the size of your light has an influence on the look of diffuse and specular lighting (and on caustics).

I haven't looked at your scene though.

Cheers,

jgj
05-12-2006, 12:46 AM
Changing the light size(s) does alter the shape and size of the bloomed-out area, but does not effect the hard edge (which appears in the A-A pass, btw.)

(Thanks for suggestion to check that -- one of the settings I hadn't tried yet. :)

-Jim

May that be related to the disk size of your light? This was introduced in 2.4b I think - the size of your light has an influence on the look of diffuse and specular lighting (and on caustics).

I haven't looked at your scene though.

Cheers,

Geco
05-12-2006, 08:32 AM
Here's something that's been around for a while.... I'm still not sure if it's merely due to the recent changes in M:S, or a real bug, or what. Since 2.4c still does it, I wanted to mention it again in the hope I can find out either how to correct the problem, or if it's a bug, so it doesn't perhaps get overlooked in all the other developments (which are most impressive and great to see, btw.)

The two attached images and .mpj show the issue......

-Jimhello Jim,
try to disable GI or reduce the light intensity.

ThomasHelzle
05-12-2006, 10:44 AM
hi jgj

Fully confirmed your problem.
I now tried your scene and this is really completely wrong.
It is similar to the overblow I have seen in many scenes introduced by the AA pass - in my case often when using HDRI environments - but in such a simple scene it is hard to work around.

A major one for 2.4d :-)

Cheers,

AAAron
05-13-2006, 08:46 PM
Replacing objects makes Messiah (2.4c) crash, works normaly in (2.4b) Anyone to confirm?

Taron333
05-13-2006, 09:15 PM
hi jgj

Fully confirmed your problem.
I now tried your scene and this is really completely wrong.
It is similar to the overblow I have seen in many scenes introduced by the AA pass - in my case often when using HDRI environments - but in such a simple scene it is hard to work around.

A major one for 2.4d :-)

Cheers,

Yup, no doubt! We need to figure out what causes that...I'm still a little uncomfortable with the GI intensity in the first place...but that blowing out is a giantic "no no", so we'll iron it out! :buttrock:

Taron333
05-13-2006, 09:17 PM
Replacing objects makes Messiah (2.4c) crash, works normaly in (2.4b) Anyone to confirm?

Can you describe the circumstances a bit more, like what kind of effects you have attached to it before you replace the geometry? I can't confirm that with simple replaces, even with bones attached and such... ...some funny special case? :shrug:

(btw, sorry to hear of any crash!) :cry:

kvernon
05-13-2006, 09:22 PM
I think I have a bug here. I can't seem to turn on and off the diffuse and specular for each light on a surface basis as it describes in the docs. This is for 2.4c.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3542749

sincerely,

Kelly

AAAron
05-13-2006, 09:46 PM
Can you describe the circumstances a bit more, like what kind of effects you have attached to it before you replace the geometry? I can't confirm that with simple replaces, even with bones attached and such... ...some funny special case? :shrug:

(btw, sorry to hear of any crash!) :cry:

Nothing funny like effects and such just plain loaded obj files both locally and on network, last time was a simple one surface character, the weird thing is it works great in 2.4b.

BTW. Thanks for the rest of the 2.4c, like the dmorph update, :bounce:

Taron333
05-13-2006, 09:54 PM
I think I have a bug here. I can't seem to turn on and off the diffuse and specular for each light on a surface basis as it describes in the docs. This is for 2.4c.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3542749

sincerely,

Kelly

The odd thing is, everything works fine for me here...I'm running Nvidia Gforce 5600 and quadro FX1100...both no issue...I dunno...we'll have to find a way to check it out! :wip:

Taron333
05-13-2006, 09:56 PM
Nothing funny like effects and such just plain loaded obj files both locally and on network, last time was a simple one surface character, the weird thing is it works great in 2.4b.

BTW. Thanks for the rest of the 2.4c, like the dmorph update, :bounce:

very odd...have you installed 2.4c correctly?! I mean, we've had someone report funky issues like that until it turned out, that he installed over top of the old version and ran into some trouble.... sounds as odd as some of the things he had reported. :shrug:

kvernon
05-13-2006, 10:15 PM
Taron333,

I'm running 78.01 drivers for a geforce 6800 ultra.

Thomas resolved it, they work, but the icons don't represent what is shown in the manual. I just see the on state, so I just kept click all over the place trying to get the icon to do something. Taron, do your icons show the on and off states?

regards,

Kelly

P.s. thanks for looking

AAAron
05-13-2006, 10:58 PM
very odd...have you installed 2.4c correctly?! I mean, we've had someone report funky issues like that until it turned out, that he installed over top of the old version and ran into some trouble.... sounds as odd as some of the things he had reported. :shrug:

I`ll give it a try with a fresh install.

Another question wich is OT in this thread, but would it be hard to implent realtime viewing of animated texture sequences (if it possible with alpha) in the viewport on objects? Just like the background viewing works with image sequences.

Taron333
05-13-2006, 11:20 PM
Taron333,

I'm running 78.01 drivers for a geforce 6800 ultra.

Thomas resolved it, they work, but the icons don't represent what is shown in the manual. I just see the on state, so I just kept click all over the place trying to get the icon to do something. Taron, do your icons show the on and off states?

regards,

Kelly

P.s. thanks for looking

Well, yes, they should. On both of my systems they appear when on and disappear when off. Not sure what happens for you guys...we'll definitely look into it! Thanx a lot! :wise:

Taron333
05-13-2006, 11:24 PM
I`ll give it a try with a fresh install.

Another question wich is OT in this thread, but would it be hard to implent realtime viewing of animated texture sequences (if it possible with alpha) in the viewport on objects? Just like the background viewing works with image sequences.

Well, depends on what you mean by animated textures. If you mean an image sequence, that should be possible, if it ain't already. If you mean by animating your textures through nodes with keyframes or other actions, this would require a complete evaluation of the shader tree for each frame and could cause severe slowdown....ironically or coincidentally we are already talking about the option to do such a thing in terms of displacement/bump. But at this point this is only talking, you know. We'll see what's possible! It would be really fantastic, no doubt! I know that there's always the big "but games can do that, can't they" type of thought for some (which occasionally includes myself, too), but it's just such a tremendous difference between a preset system and a system that the user can completely customize and pump up with what ever he/she pleases to! That's the main difference...but well...one day we'll all look back at this and go... " HAH, HAH, HAH, do you remember when...." :argh:

AAAron
05-14-2006, 12:03 AM
[QUOTE=Taron333]If you mean an image sequence, that should be possible, if it ain't already.[QUOTE]

Thats what I mean, I donīt think itīs implented I canīt get it to work anyway. It would be of great help when putting in filmed clips of stuff in a 3d envoirement and a great complement to the background seq viewing.

Anyway I think I localized the replace problem, fresh install didnīt help, BUT if I replace an .obj file with a .lwo file the problem doesent occur. So it should have something to do with objs.

BTW. the other stuff seem really cool :bounce: the future....

Taron333
05-14-2006, 05:08 AM
Here's something that's been around for a while.... I'm still not sure if it's merely due to the recent changes in M:S, or a real bug, or what. Since 2.4c still does it, I wanted to mention it again in the hope I can find out either how to correct the problem, or if it's a bug, so it doesn't perhaps get overlooked in all the other developments (which are most impressive and great to see, btw.)

The two attached images and .mpj show the issue......

-Jim


Problem solved! :bounce:
And it was all my fault...I'm trying to keep the benefits of the change, which optimized AA ironically for blown-out sections, but I guess it wasn't exactly perfect. The current fix appears to keep the optimization and certainly removes the blow out, but we have to run a few more tests! I have no idea how I didn't notice that thing happening. A little - by the way - it has nothing to do with specularity or reflections or HDRI, it's simply how it deals with anything already blown out! :scream:

Thanx for the project file, too! Helped a great deal! (made it easier!) :thumbsup:

DMack
05-14-2006, 10:55 AM
Hi Taron,


Here's something I posted in another thread, it's been confirmed by someone else.....

I have a group that contains some specific item channels (not items), for example objectA:xpos and objectb:heading etc. Now when in animate mode, if I filter on this group, I'd expect to see those channels appear in the list....but they don't. Does this type of group filtering only work for items as opposed to channels? If so, I'd like this changed. It'd be hugely useful to be able to set this type of group up and filter on it.

Any chance of a fix/change on this front?

Taron333
05-16-2006, 11:42 PM
Hi Taron,


Here's something I posted in another thread, it's been confirmed by someone else.....

I have a group that contains some specific item channels (not items), for example objectA:xpos and objectb:heading etc. Now when in animate mode, if I filter on this group, I'd expect to see those channels appear in the list....but they don't. Does this type of group filtering only work for items as opposed to channels? If so, I'd like this changed. It'd be hugely useful to be able to set this type of group up and filter on it.

Any chance of a fix/change on this front?

Good idea, I like it! I don't think it was made with that in mind and I'm not sure what depth this kind of change will have in terms of alterations into the core, but we will certainly talk about it and see what's possible! I really think it's a good idea! Hmmm....not sure how much that would also change the kind of management one would want to have for it...it could be a classic can of worms. Yeah, I think it would really require a whole new section for the grouping and a whole new set of internal lists that would have to be maintained...hmmm....I think that's a rather involved thing and definitely a professional feature....hmmm....hmmm...hmmm....We'll see!

Thanx, again! :thumbsup:

stooch
05-17-2006, 06:06 AM
nice. that does sound like it would come in handy.

kvernon
05-22-2006, 12:16 PM
(version 2.4d)

I'm having a serious issue with moving keyframes in the dopesheet, and I feel it's a bug too. It's been around in messiah for quite a long time.

Basically everytime I move keframes, and they have inactive keys on them messiah turns those inactive keys into active keys.

Here is the forum I posted this on so there is a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Forum title: how do you move active keys only in dopesheet?
Link: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3568006

Sincerely,

Kelly

stooch
05-22-2006, 02:56 PM
Im having crashes when attempting to render scene with a realflow sequence. Anyone else? seems to happen with a window preview??

p.s. Seems to happen with motion blur... interpolated especially?? not sure though can someone verify this?

Another possible culprit is photon emissions, seems to be mor stable when i changed the caustics to approximated.

DMack
05-22-2006, 03:04 PM
Taron,

PLEASE look into the issue Kelly raises regarding inactive keys becoming active when dope master cells are moved! (couple of posts up)

I'd really appreciate that! I thought it was one that had been tackled in ver c???

:thumbsup:

chikega
05-23-2006, 03:59 PM
This is a long standing bug ... not being able to translate an object (camera, light) in local in the respective viewport. So, if the viewport is in Camera mode and I try to move it along it's local Z to dolly, it translates along the world axis. If I try to translate a light in "O" (object) view mode along local Z, it simply rotates ... it doesn't even translate. :shrug:

stooch
05-23-2006, 08:02 PM
This is a long standing bug ... not being able to translate an object (camera, light) in local in the respective viewport. So, if the viewport is in Camera mode and I try to move it along it's local Z to dolly, it translates along the world axis. If I try to translate a light in "O" (object) view mode along local Z, it simply rotates ... it doesn't even translate. :shrug:

ill confirm that one!

DaveW
05-24-2006, 05:11 PM
Taron,

PLEASE look into the issue Kelly raises regarding inactive keys becoming active when dope master cells are moved! (couple of posts up)

I'd really appreciate that! I thought it was one that had been tackled in ver c???

:thumbsup:

Agreed, this one really drives me up the wall.

I think 2.4c and d were good updates though, I've had far fewer crashes with these patches. And with all the updates to the renderer, I decided to finally give it a try and I have to say I'm really impressed. I understand now why Wegg and Taron are always gushing about it. I was going to render my short in LW but now I think messiah would be a better choice.

kvernon
05-26-2006, 11:44 AM
Also,

There seems to be another bug in regards to animating with all but the parent coordinate system. Rick found that when animating with 1 channel (even usining I, independant channel), messiah will make active keykrames for similar channels. For example, lets say you animate on the Y axis, messiah will also create active keys for X and Z.

You can find it in the same thread/issue I reported earlier about the active and inactive keyframes.

Forum title: how do you move active keys only in dopesheet?
Link: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3568006

Regards,

Kelly

Taron333
05-26-2006, 12:24 PM
Also,

There seems to be another bug in regards to animating with all but the parent coordinate system. Rick found that when animating with 1 channel (even usining I, independant channel), messiah will make active keykrames for similar channels. For example, lets say you animate on the Y axis, messiah will also create active keys for X and Z.

You can find it in the same thread/issue I reported earlier about the active and inactive keyframes.

Forum title: how do you move active keys only in dopesheet?
Link: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3568006

Regards,

Kelly

Curious, that should only happen for channel groups, if that method is chosen. I'll check it out and we'll look at it! It's those funny things that recently all pop up, probably because finally you all get active, too. So those bugs are kind of like pimples and you guys are kind of like a special soap? HAHAHA....or something like that. So what happens is, now that you are applied, the little bugs come out so we can wipe'em off! :bounce: :argh: :drool: (kinda looks like hurling, doesn't it?!)

Alrighty, thanx again...we're on it! :wip:

Taron333
05-26-2006, 12:29 PM
Agreed, this one really drives me up the wall.

I think 2.4c and d were good updates though, I've had far fewer crashes with these patches. And with all the updates to the renderer, I decided to finally give it a try and I have to say I'm really impressed. I understand now why Wegg and Taron are always gushing about it. I was going to render my short in LW but now I think messiah would be a better choice.

I think that was just in regards to moving the key in time within the motiongraph's curve stuff...guess it wasn't generic enough to cover the dopesheet, too. Sure, good call! That sort of stuff makes me feel like a waiter or barkeeper at a 50's diner, taking orders and sticking them on those white postits and spin it over to Fori and Dan, hahaha.... :D

But I'm getting ready with a big, big can of worms for me to open by you guys, hehe...nice stuff, but it certainly makes me a cook again, too! :rolleyes:

ThomasHelzle
05-26-2006, 12:44 PM
It's those funny things that recently all pop up, probably because finally you all get active, too. So those bugs are kind of like pimples and you guys are kind of like a special soap?
Well, many of those things are there for a long time but you finally gave us back hope, so posting bugs is back in the "making sense" area and a productive task instead of being "on the list" ;)

Oh man - that pimples analogy could be taken quite far, but I better resist >LOL<

Hey Taron, thank you very much for your fantastic spirit lately! :thumbsup: :bounce:

This is how I always thought messiah should be developed :thumbsup:

Joy!

svintaj
05-26-2006, 02:10 PM
Ok here is a little list of things that could been inproved in Messiah!
I made this list yesterday when I was working on a real project in Messiah:Studio 2.4d
Some bugs but mostly workflow issues:

1) You can't delete the active camera of two cameras. Messiah should automatlicly delete
the active camera and just activate some other camera! Or bring up a requester asking you
to chose wich other camera to use as active.

2) (Important!) Often when copying objects and objecthierarchies the meshes disappear!

3) We need a way to change settings for all surfaces with the same name at the same time, now you have to select all surfaces (Can be plenty of them) Think of LW feature: Surface by Object or by Scene!

4) When merging a scene I would like a requester so I can choose wich objects or lights or
cameras I like to import. Think of/look at, how 3DsMAX Merges scenes!

5) I wish improved filtering for the item list and the wievport, sometimes I just want to
see my Lights, only bones or just objects!

6) I would like to be able to group objects, so I can have a "package of items" under just
one item, see grouping in 3DsMAX!

7) I vote for instancing as a alternative to copy, again se 3DsMax: When you do a copy you get a requester asking you if you want to do a copy or a instance!

8) I want to be able to save the last rended picture from the preview window! And also a feature to switch between the last render and the previous! And the ability to see the alpa
in the prewiev window!

9) You can't delete all selected surfaces under one or more surfaces, in the surface list.

10) This would be handy: If you doubleclick on a "MaterialBall" in the material tray, that
material could get applyed to the current selected surfaces!

11) The preview settings aren't saved with the scene, very time-consuming when jumping
betwen different scenes!

12) Control-drag limeted-region often "jumps away" from the mouse-pointer and the
interaction is slow and clumsy?

13) If the same material and suface name exist in two scenes, then after merging one scene into the other, you got a duplicate of the surface, not so handy if you like to edit the surface! For object import this works grate when Messiah makes no duplicates!

14) When using limeted-region I like to have the prewiev-window to get the size of the
limeted-region! I use this often to tweak the rendering quality of hires-pictures, and I
hate when a BIG-black windows cover my whole screen!

15) If the preview window is to big to fit on the screen the window size should be scaled
to fit the screen. And it should be scaleble!

16) If I deactivate say Pitch on an item, I still can rotate in pich if I'm using the "r"
on the edit sphere!? Not what I want! I want that pitch-channel Deactivated! This is true
for all deactivated chanels..

17) It would be handy if we could save multiple selected objects as one mesh/object, I
often need to do this to check the position of things from the scene when modeling.

18) The current active camera should stay active when merging another scene, cause they do not in current Messiah!

19) I like to be able to: right-click on an object in the item list and choose: Replace!

20) It would be good to have a little handle in the midle of the limeted-region so you can
reposition the whole region in one click and drag!

21) You can't undo delete material.

22) I miss a weight-painting-tool or support of weightmaps, this is the main thing I miss
in Messiah and still keeps me going Maya or LW for character work!

23) And... (yes I added this now...) FreezeTransformation, to zero-out the setup position of items!

Keep on working!! The new Messiah 2.4d works better than ever, I just had one chrash at work yesterday! :wip: :thumbsup:
/ Svante

stooch
05-26-2006, 02:28 PM
another little annoyance, the * b utton is used to clone objects.
it is also used to clone expressions....
but try using it on armatures and you find that it does nothing!
but when you switch over to your item list....you see a bunch of copies of a bone, or worse a higherarchy!

DMack
05-26-2006, 08:25 PM
REALLY glad to hear that you'll let the gys know about the inactive keys becoming active when moving dope master keys - That really would be one cool bug to remove!

Taron333
05-27-2006, 04:55 AM
wowee...big list! I'll look through it a bit later tonight, just a quick note to the two "bugs" about keyframe moving and creating...

I can't confirm them, but I can explain:

- if you move an object along it's local coordinates, it actually is only a helper for you to move it, while in fact this kind of motion could require the translation of more than one axis! If an object for instance is headed and pitched, a local motion along X would in fact move the object along all axis and needs to create X Y Z information in a key, therefore creating a key for all these channels. It's actually logical and can not be changed if you want to continue taking advantage of the "on the fly" ability to switched between local and world coordinates! Trust me, when I say this, but you most likely wouldn't want to have it differently. Having it differently would be an equivalent of making a Null object as a parent to the object you want to move and key on only one axis, while rotating it only through the Null. This would simulate the procedure a lock to local coordinates would amount to!
SO ... not a bug!

As for the doopsheet timeshifting of keys, I can not confirm that it would activate inactive channels of a key. Works perfectly fine here! So I don't know what you're really doing, but I hope you are running 2.4d!!! :shrug:

Again, I'll look through the big list in a moment!
But THANX already for making it!

Taron

Taron333
05-27-2006, 05:39 AM
Damn, that's a fantastic list! Looks all right and applicable! That certainly puts us to work for quite some time, hahaha. We should make a poll on us focusing on making all of this work as opposed to doing anything else, hahahaha. No really, it's a fantastic list. What I like about it most is the fact that it really highlights things that we've neglected and in some cases have simply forgotten. It all sounds familiar though and best of all it all makes sense. Just the instancing thing I'm not sure about, because it's more of a radical addition, I think. Out of experience I'd say, this would probably be the last list item we'd take care of, but that's just my feeling. Wouldn't be the first time that I'm completely wrong and it turns out to be among the first things, hehe, but yeah...

List filters sounds like such an ordinary thing, I'm all for that one, too.
The surface and material list management really needs some work, that's for sure!
Well, I shouldn't even start with an item by item reaction, because it mostly would read like this: Yes, excellent, totally, right, I'd want the same, thought about it already, sure thing...etc..etc...

SO: GREAT, we'll examine the possibilities for a short term realisation and what would take longer to do! :wip:

Here's a big: :thumbsup:


Ok here is a little list of things that could been inproved in Messiah!
I made this list yesterday when I was working on a real project in Messiah:Studio 2.4d
Some bugs but mostly workflow issues:

1) You can't delete the active camera of two cameras. Messiah should automatlicly delete
the active camera and just activate some other camera! Or bring up a requester asking you
to chose wich other camera to use as active.

2) (Important!) Often when copying objects and objecthierarchies the meshes disappear!

3) We need a way to change settings for all surfaces with the same name at the same time, now you have to select all surfaces (Can be plenty of them) Think of LW feature: Surface by Object or by Scene!

4) When merging a scene I would like a requester so I can choose wich objects or lights or
cameras I like to import. Think of/look at, how 3DsMAX Merges scenes!

5) I wish improved filtering for the item list and the wievport, sometimes I just want to
see my Lights, only bones or just objects!

6) I would like to be able to group objects, so I can have a "package of items" under just
one item, see grouping in 3DsMAX!

7) I vote for instancing as a alternative to copy, again se 3DsMax: When you do a copy you get a requester asking you if you want to do a copy or a instance!

8) I want to be able to save the last rended picture from the preview window! And also a feature to switch between the last render and the previous! And the ability to see the alpa
in the prewiev window!

9) You can't delete all selected surfaces under one or more surfaces, in the surface list.

10) This would be handy: If you doubleclick on a "MaterialBall" in the material tray, that
material could get applyed to the current selected surfaces!

11) The preview settings aren't saved with the scene, very time-consuming when jumping
betwen different scenes!

12) Control-drag limeted-region often "jumps away" from the mouse-pointer and the
interaction is slow and clumsy?

13) If the same material and suface name exist in two scenes, then after merging one scene into the other, you got a duplicate of the surface, not so handy if you like to edit the surface! For object import this works grate when Messiah makes no duplicates!

14) When using limeted-region I like to have the prewiev-window to get the size of the
limeted-region! I use this often to tweak the rendering quality of hires-pictures, and I
hate when a BIG-black windows cover my whole screen!

15) If the preview window is to big to fit on the screen the window size should be scaled
to fit the screen. And it should be scaleble!

16) If I deactivate say Pitch on an item, I still can rotate in pich if I'm using the "r"
on the edit sphere!? Not what I want! I want that pitch-channel Deactivated! This is true
for all deactivated chanels..

17) It would be handy if we could save multiple selected objects as one mesh/object, I
often need to do this to check the position of things from the scene when modeling.

18) The current active camera should stay active when merging another scene, cause they do not in current Messiah!

19) I like to be able to: right-click on an object in the item list and choose: Replace!

20) It would be good to have a little handle in the midle of the limeted-region so you can
reposition the whole region in one click and drag!

21) You can't undo delete material.

22) I miss a weight-painting-tool or support of weightmaps, this is the main thing I miss
in Messiah and still keeps me going Maya or LW for character work!

23) And... (yes I added this now...) FreezeTransformation, to zero-out the setup position of items!

Keep on working!! The new Messiah 2.4d works better than ever, I just had one chrash at work yesterday! :wip: :thumbsup:
/ Svante

mkovacic
05-27-2006, 12:28 PM
(version 2.4d)
I'm having a serious issue with moving keyframes in the dopesheet, and I feel it's a bug too. It's been around in messiah for quite a long time.
Basically everytime I move keframes, and they have inactive keys on them messiah turns those inactive keys into active keys.

I really want to see this issue adressed, but I'd like to point out that keeping these keys inactive is not what you actually want 90% of the time. If you're working on timing in the dope master, moving a key in one channel without altering the other channels can alter your animation, not just the timing, because the channels will go out of sync.

I find that most of the time the problem is not that they get activated, but that they don't get activated to a value they had while inactive, but to a value they had when last active. If you purposely inactivated them to smooth out a curve or whatever, they will snap back to their original (wrong!) value when they get activated by dragging keys in dope master.

I'm not sure if my explanation is clear enough, please tell me if there's any confusion and I'll put up some screenshots to illustrate better.

Anyway, what I'd really like to see is a "key activation rules" dropdown, so we can select between the way it is now, no activation whatsoever, and sort of "activate in place" option
that would _create_ a key in channels that don't have it instead of just activating it (the same thing I'd get if I pressed create button in that channel). So if I dragged a key in dopemaster it would _first_ create a key on all channels, then move them to a different position (creating a key after moving would get me the same thing as not activating them at all).

stooch
05-29-2006, 01:16 AM
22) I miss a weight-painting-tool or support of weightmaps, this is the main thing I miss
in Messiah and still keeps me going Maya or LW for character work!


Ill second and third this one!

Also, it seems that alot of people (including myself) run into this issue: To parent in place, you have to go into tools and select parent and check some boxes to enable the parenting in place and then click another button - after selecting the objects to parent. It would be great if there was a universal PIP toggle that always showed up on the screen (an armature like the ones we have already), this way you could toggle parent in place or keep rotations quickly. Most importantly though - messiah would respect this setting even with drag and drop parenting..

ThomasHelzle
05-29-2006, 01:22 AM
yes, Drag-and-Drop Parent-in-Place is a must - equal in what mode you're in.
Pretty high up on my list... :thumbsup:

Cheers,

maks
05-29-2006, 08:31 AM
Ill second and third this one!

Also, it seems that alot of people (including myself) run into this issue: To parent in place, you have to go into tools and select parent and check some boxes to enable the parenting in place and then click another button - after selecting the objects to parent. It would be great if there was a universal PIP toggle that always showed up on the screen (an armature like the ones we have already), this way you could toggle parent in place or keep rotations quickly. Most importantly though - messiah would respect this setting even with drag and drop parenting..

No drag and drop, but a PIP armature button is already possible - just create a handle and assign the parentInPlace command to it. There are some other parent/unparent commands as well.
Now we just need that dynamic parent in place solution *hint hint* ;)

DaveW
05-30-2006, 05:06 AM
I really want to see this issue adressed, but I'd like to point out that keeping these keys inactive is not what you actually want 90% of the time. If you're working on timing in the dope master, moving a key in one channel without altering the other channels can alter your animation, not just the timing, because the channels will go out of sync.


I don't mean to sound like a dick, but how do you know what *I* want 90% of the time? I made those keys inactive for a reason. They should stay that way until I decide to activate them again.

mkovacic
05-30-2006, 06:05 AM
I don't mean to sound like a dick, but how do you know what *I* want 90% of the time? I made those keys inactive for a reason. They should stay that way until I decide to activate them again.
Chill out, I was just pointing out that the issue is more involved then just activating or not activating. If you right-click-drag a key in graph editor while in All Channels mode, it will activate your inactive keys on other chanells too, but they'll stay in place, not snap back to where they were when last active. I'd prefer to have this behaviour on the dope master. Obviously, having a dropdown to select what behaviour you want would be perfect.

BTW, middle-clicking on the dopemaster while in All Channels will not create keys in channels that already have an inactive key in them, they'll just remain inactive. Pressing the "Create" button will create them. That sucks, too.

DMack
05-30-2006, 01:44 PM
Hi mkovacic,

I disagree with your 90% comment. Personally I find that I always want my inactive keys to remain inactive when I drag in the dopemaster. When you have multiple channels it's way too dangerous to have keys becoming active without you knowing. I've also got a setup where I have some useful keys pushed off to the right and I want to be able to drag copy them to any part of my timeline. With the inactive keys becoming active that simply isn't possible. I can't think of a single time I've wanted it to work the other way round.

Not wanting to start an argument - just my take on it. :)

ThomasHelzle
05-30-2006, 02:43 PM
Inactive should stay inactive regardless of moving keys around. Period.
Everything else sounds horrible to me.
You can easily get your "activate in place" by just creating a key on top of the old inactive ones, so the functionality is there already I think.

Just the bug has to go. Don't make it more confusing as it has to be ;)

Cheers.

maks
05-30-2006, 03:14 PM
Absolutely agreed here. We're running constanty into this issue here, and this is something that has bugged me for a long time. Have keys on different frames for different channels, on multiple items, and you want to shift those keys in time in the dopemaster, with the channel edit set to e.g. Motion, or Object - you get a complete mess because new keys are created/activated all over the place. Setting the channel edit to individual and multi-selecting the individual channels in the list isn't really an option, when you want to edit multiple objects at once this is way too tedious. You can use the Distord Key Range to some extend, but it's isn't by far as flexible and straight forward as the dope master would be, especially if you just want to edit certain parts of the animation, or a certain object selection. This is an issue where all the benefits of the dope master get lost :sad::banghead:
Please, please, please, can we this fixed!

DMack
05-30-2006, 08:29 PM
I've got my pitch fork and I'm lighting a torch.:twisted:

The only way to placate me now is to fix the dopemaster bug and then dangle dynamic parent in place infront of me. :D

stooch
05-30-2006, 08:37 PM
UMMM. DRAG AND DROP PIP!!!

With easy access armatures please!

Taron333
05-30-2006, 09:11 PM
I've got my pitch fork and I'm lighting a torch.:twisted:

The only way to placate me now is to fix the dopemaster bug and then dangle dynamic parent in place infront of me. :D


After all this nonsense, I have no idea anymore what BUG you are talking about?!?
The dynamic parenting thing remains a good one, because I'm not really happy with our existing dynamic parent set myself...it works, but it's really a little patchy for my taste, too.

My brains are a little numb today, so I can't get too much into the whole "everyone wants things a certain way"-thing and the "it's-tough-if-not-impossible-to-please-everyone-by-default"-thing, either! :argh:

Instead I'd like to say that a good workflow, once it's established, should be subject to adaptation by all the users, you know. If you can achieve your goals with a great fluent and fast type of procedure, even if it is not the way you were thinking it would work, it is still good or even fantastic. Every software has a certain style and certain ways to approach things. Explore the possibilities and don't hesitate to do what you might consider and extra step at one place, because it most likely takes away a lot of other extra steps at other places! (e.g. making a key for all channels if you want to offset the current position of them in time as opposed to an automated solution!) By the way...you can always right click on "create", which should do the job...I work like that a lot!

Coffeetime for me...

Wegg
05-30-2006, 09:41 PM
Often times when I'm learning a new package I get so caught up on not being able to do one specific thing the way I was used to doing it before. . . that I miss out on all the other great things that package has to offer. For years I lothed Lightwave's modeler. I was so caught up on not being able to select edges that I just couldn't bring myself to use it. But over the years I have slowly gotten used to how things work and now find it invaluable.

With Messiah I often wish it worked like Animation Master. I found A:M to have the most intuitive workflow. Especially in the way it deals with re-usable actions. But slowly I have learned to love motion clips and appreciate the way Messiah thinks.

Taron, you guys are really doing a great job of nailing a lot of "annoyance" bugs and I hope you don't stop getting rid of them. There are a lot of things in Messiah that feel like kludges instead of real nice elegant "good workflow" solutions. But at the same time. . . I hope others realize that the more you ask for these little things. . . the slower the big mind blowing things take to develop.

<Translation> --- QUIT LISTENING TO THESE FOOLS AND GIVE ME FUR DAMN YOU! :twisted: --- </Translation>

Adam-Han
05-30-2006, 11:56 PM
A hair/fur solution is my main request as well! :)

Taron333
05-31-2006, 12:05 AM
Yes, yes, yes...fur...hair...the order is placed! :D