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DMack
05-31-2006, 08:53 AM
Hi Taron,

OK, I'll try and make the two issues of confusion clear. It's not a preference thing, one's a bug and one's a feature request.

A. The dopemaster Thing
Imagine having several objects/channels in the graph editor. When moving (or copying) cells using the dopemaster, we don't want any of the inactive keys for any of the objects/channels to become active as they currently do. It seems like a bug.

B. The Parent In Place Thing
A function that allows you to dynamically parent an item in place for use in animation. So that a character can 'pick up or catch' an item at any time easily. At present there is no function that allows you to do this - a feature request.

Taron, I was joking about the pitch fork and torch! I think you guys are doing a seriously good job! Keep it up and keep up the communication!

Thanks :thumbsup:

timnhe
05-31-2006, 10:47 AM
One more feature request :)

There will be a great feature, the option to change the color of a item. Yes, with groups, change the color is possible, but I think that a right click menu in the item list to change the color of a item is more usable.

I allways use the groups in my rigs, but I donīt like to change the color of my Items doing this.

Thanks!!

maks
05-31-2006, 10:59 AM
After all this nonsense, I have no idea anymore what BUG you are talking about?!?

http://maks.free.fr/temp/dope_master_issue_xvid.avi

fishhead
05-31-2006, 12:10 PM
That does illustrate the problem perfectly :thumbsup: Thanks Maks!
it really can drive you nuts at times always have to work around this problem.
Retiming an animation only using dopemaster could be a matter of seconds, instead you have almost always go the compose-way combined with distorting keyranges in edit...
It would be a great hassle-saver getting rid of this nasty behaviour...

Maybe just "deactivating" the inactive-key-feature by default and/or having a toggle for it in the Key-Editing-Tab would be possible in a future patch?!? Would that make sense?

Maybe its just me, but I cannot recall a single occasion where I really saw advantage in using inactive keys at all...:shrug: But its also that I am just starting again to animate in messiah after almost 2 years now. So what do I know... :rolleyes:

its amazing how much you one can forget in such a short period of time but its actually fun fiddling with the tool again. And a well behaving dopemaster would it make an even greater joy :)

- Lo

DMack
05-31-2006, 03:07 PM
Thanks maks - great way to demo the issue!

Fishead:
"Maybe just "deactivating" the inactive-key-feature by default and/or having a toggle for it in the Key-Editing-Tab would be possible in a future patch?!? Would that make sense?"

That would work for me, can't speak for the others.

Wegg
05-31-2006, 03:48 PM
[QUOTE=DMack]
B. The Parent In Place Thing
A function that allows you to dynamically parent an item in place for use in animation. So that a character can 'pick up or catch' an item at any time easily. At present there is no function that allows you to do this - a feature request./QUOTE]

http://www.animationsnippets.com/plugins/index.html

I have used this before. It works as advertized. . .

maks
05-31-2006, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=DMack]
B. The Parent In Place Thing
A function that allows you to dynamically parent an item in place for use in animation. So that a character can 'pick up or catch' an item at any time easily. At present there is no function that allows you to do this - a feature request./QUOTE]

http://www.animationsnippets.com/plugins/index.html

I have used this before. It works as advertized. . .

Sorry Billy, but this one, while handy in certain situations, doesn't parent *in place* neither, it's rather like the regular dynamic parenting fucntion, but for multiple parents. Imagine a dynamic parent function where the child doesn't change place and orientation while switching parents.

Wegg
05-31-2006, 04:40 PM
The way I used it. . . was to have nulls in my scene that were parented to whatever I needed them to be. Then when I needed it to "parent in place", the frame before the switch was to happen, I would move the null where it needed to be in space/time and then with that plugin, adjusted the channel so that it switched parents on that frame.

No its not an elegant/intuitive solution but it worked for my needs.

maks
05-31-2006, 04:56 PM
Sure, there are workarounds, we do that here too - but a more direct solution, as in most other 3d packages (see my post earlier in this thread about e.g. XSI) would save some (sometimes big) hassle :) Almost every serious CA software has that! ;)

Wegg
05-31-2006, 05:04 PM
Well. . . then. . .

WE SHOULD HAVE IT TOO!

/me grabs his pitchfork.

DMack
05-31-2006, 05:12 PM
Hi Wegg,

Thanks. I've used that but it's limited for day to day use. You discover that when you have all moving items, so for example, a throwing hand (moving), a moving ball (obviously!) and a moving catching hand. With true DPIP you can do this without the parents motions affecting the childs (ball).

I've banged on about this enough. I don't want to sound stale! For day to day CA it would be a tremendously useful function to add. I just don't know how difficult it would be for them though.

:)
First the dopemaster, then DPIP, then I'll be quiet as a mouse for......minutes! Ha ha ha!

ThomasHelzle
05-31-2006, 08:57 PM
Taron: I don't know if you watch this thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=363090&page=1&pp=20

The good, the bad and the ugly:

- Something IS wrong with refraction.
- There is still bad shadow noise through transparency.
- Two of the shadowmap flavours produce completely broken results with transparency.
- Doublesided objects with SSS throw no shadows.
- You already know about the black spots from transparent objects - may be related to the refraction problem.
- Antialiasing still isn't there. See my red glass tori rendering.
- I still get focus jumping when deleting nodes. Very very rare now, but it is still there.
- If Antialiasing is set to "None", soft shadows are rendered in High Quality, so you can't create a fast preview with this.

I'm sure I missed some, but this should be enough for one day anyway.

"The queen wasn't amused"

Cheers,

Lino Grandi
06-03-2006, 01:20 AM
I've found a bug related to Soft Body Dynamics....if you have two objects with SBD effect applyed, only the first in the effects list reacts to collisions. Can someone please confirm this?

Even "Rigid" option for collision objects appears to be broken.

dobermunk
06-03-2006, 10:42 AM
I can confirm and add some weird observations:

- your objects are named 'layer 1", "layer2" etc. If you are working with a multi-layered object, try seperating it into two objects. (Just geussing with this one - its often a source of weirdness.)

- When I switch from animate to set-up, the second soft-body wasn't colliding. Oddly, when I switch back, the second soft-body object is frozen on that frame, in the midst of collided distortion. And when I then scrub the timeline, the ball still goes through the object (incorrect), but there is a visible effect that isn't there when the scene is playing.

Lino Grandi
06-04-2006, 08:06 AM
I can confirm and add some weird observations:

- your objects are named 'layer 1", "layer2" etc. If you are working with a multi-layered object, try seperating it into two objects. (Just geussing with this one - its often a source of weirdness.)

I've tried, and looks like multy layered objects work the same as single layered objects. The real problem seems to relay in the fact that different soft objects can't use the same collision object/objects. A little odd beavhior...but at least there's a workaround. I hope PMG is going to fix that.

stooch
06-04-2006, 09:38 AM
aaaah, soft bodies... dont get me started hahaha.

Lino Grandi
06-04-2006, 01:59 PM
aaaah, soft bodies... dont get me started hahaha.

I simply love them.

If I could figure out how to use self-collision and if in Messiah there were tools such as Lightwave's Metalink and Hardlink, they would be perfect.

I'm starting a big project and I have to choose between Lightwave and Messiah for cloth/soft dynamic simulation.

What I really miss in Messiah is the chance to use pre-built math collision spheres. In Lightwave they work very well and are long way faster than polygonal objects.

svintaj
06-07-2006, 06:09 PM
Hi PMG!

I have collected some more WorkFlow-issues during the last days at work.
This is just "tiny things" that in some way leads to frustration, BUT after a long day at work can make you feel: "I have had enough of this!" :banghead:
If you like, you can wash them away, to everybodys pleasant! :wip: :drool:

24) Lights from imported LW-scenes is converted into Null objects, when Messiah should convert them to a Light, with the basic info intact.

25) Please enable "Escape" to abort renderings insted of "F9", this is just confusing and annoying.

26) I can't move the pivot interactively with the mouse, neither in animate or in setup.
(I like to use the editspare for it)

27) When creating a new null it should become a "child" to "the current selected object".
In the current version it become a "child" to the "current-selected-objects parent", and for me it seems like a mistake?
Also, please add a checkbox for creating nulls unlinked(parent to world).

28) I like to be able to refresh/reload "all selected objects", this is needed when models have been modifyed. In current Messiah I use to reload the whole scene(wich often leads to a crash). Or at least: when chooseing Replace, Messiah should have the searchpath to the current object allready set, so you just need to click OK!

29) When renaming objects you can't place the cursor in a ordinary way, by a click someware in the middle of the string! And I have the habbit to highlight the part of the text I want to change, and then just write in some new text, but that can't be done, so this feels annoying and slows me down!

30) Sometimes the view is centered to the selected object despite the "Center view to current object"-button is deactivated, so the user must first activate it and then deactivate it, to have it deactivated.

31) You can't undo if you delete an object!

32) When multiple items is selected you can't select only one of them by click on it. You must first click on an unselected item and then select the object you want to select! ( Think: Work-flow! )

33) Filtering for the surface-list! So we can look at just "surfaces belonging to the selected material", and only view "the sufaces who not yet have a material applyed to them", and "show only surfaces belonging to current-selected-obects", etc. This would speed up the process of applying materials to several surfaces, in current Messiah the surface-list fast gets way to big to be comfortable!

34) I found 2,53 GB of Chunk-files left in Messiahs temp-dir, is this normal?
Does Messiah re-use theis Chunk-files? Otherwise Messiah seems to fail to remove them.

35) The Messiah temp directory are not saved with the config IF I set a temp dir like:"E:\" ( Just a drive and no specific folder ) Hmm, this may have something to do with the problem above(Nr34)?

36) It would be good to be able to right-click on a material and choose: SelectAllTargetSurfaces, so you fast can delete the material from all surfaces and fast add another material to them.

37) When importing a LWO with multiple-layers the layers do not always line up in order in the item list.
I was given this order right now: ( 10,2,1,3,9,4,5,6,7,8 )??? Confusing!( this seems to have something to do with imported obj objects, or maybe parts or point selection sets? )( I can send over the particular LWO causeing this little problem )

38) When I model in LW, I often use MetaNUBS/"Tab" on some pieces but keep other pices "hard"(In the same layer), a layer like this is not possible to apply MetaNURBS on in Messiah, because Messiah will "Smooth" the whole object. When the most of us comes from LW, I think it would be best if this could work as in LW.

39) (A pure feature-request) I sometimes wish I had "Enhanced control of shadow casting/recieving in the whole scene": In some way I like to decide: This object should cast shadows on this object but not on this object, etc.( So not just: Cast shadows On/Off )

Thanks for listening!
Good Luck!
/ Svante

dobermunk
06-07-2006, 06:56 PM
-Metalink
-Hardlink
-pre-built math collision spheres

yes - please!

ThomasHelzle
06-07-2006, 07:13 PM
svintaj:

I like all of your suggestions a lot, only some seem more like a habit/taste thing.

35: I think it makes more sense to use a specific folder for the temp files anyway instead of just the plain harddrive. And yes, I think this may be related to 34. My chunks are always reused.

38: I would go for changing your modeling habits here, since this kind of stuff can be a real pain in the behind if you work with others. It is much better and clearer to have non-metanurbsed stuff on a different layer. XSI and most other apps don't even allow half-subdivided meshes...

39: There could be a lot more of such stuff like object visibility for GI/Caustics/Reflections/Refractions etc, but what objects casts shadows on which other would become rather massive. You would need a huge interface for each and every object to implement that and it may be slowing down rendering in the end. I would prefer being able to render a REAL shadow pass, then you could do most of what you ask for in post easily in combination with an Object ID pass.
Having shadows as a shader would also allow for interesting stuff, but the SDK doesn't give us control over that, if you're not writing a complete material...

Just some thoughts, though.

Cheers, :wavey:

Wegg
06-07-2006, 11:10 PM
I'm getting a lot of instability (crashing all the time) when I try and render out an AVI from the Play/Animation Preview/Record Preview - AVI interface.

I hit "Record Preview". . . it locks up for a second. . . and crashes.

Its never been super stable but I was always able to get SOMETHING to work by messing with the color depth and resolution. . .

I need to get some client approval on some things and rendering isn't an option.

Grr. :-(

catizone
06-08-2006, 01:29 AM
Bill,

I just tried it and had no problems. The only scene I had was a single character rig, with a few expressions...but it worked.I'm going to guess you have a much more complex scene.

Could be the scene, or maybe a codec or compression problem? Maybe try something that works like MicrosoftVideo1 at 75% and see if that still crashes.

Another thing to try, just to see if it's the avi, is to render a few frames and see if that crashes it as well. That might help point to a scene problem?


Best,
Rick

Wegg
06-08-2006, 02:19 AM
Its just one character. Not even an environment. I used AVI Uncompressed. I'm able to render it just fine and. . . thats what I have done in order for my client to see what I have been up too. Just notched down all the AA etc.

When I get time I might try playing with it to figure out what is REALLY going on.

Its been a long time since I re-did this machine. XP kind of gets clunky and gummed up after a year or two. :-(

Wish there were a linux port.

catizone
06-08-2006, 03:10 AM
Since it's a test render of sorts, why can't you use compression?

Try some compression...even if its at 90 (or 99) percent...just to see if it works.



Best,
Rick

svintaj
06-08-2006, 12:21 PM
35: I think it makes more sense to use a specific folder for the temp files anyway instead of just the plain harddrive.
Yes it makes more sense, but it should work anyway.:thumbsup:

38: I would go for changing your modeling habits here, since this kind of stuff can be a real pain in the behind if you work with others.
Yes you're absolutely right, I should change my old habit, we and PMG should think more in "3D-standards" instead of "LW-standards"!
Thanks for your input!
/ Svante

svintaj
06-30-2006, 01:56 PM
Regarding my last list and issue nr 34:
Now I know that Messiah does not delete or reuse temporary chunkfiles! (And, yes I using a folder now) I just had a 25h render turn into trash, just because my temp dir was full of chunkfiles from the last weeks renderings!

/ Svante

jbecana
07-06-2006, 07:10 AM
A list I made while working in a recent project. I extracted from a post regarding bugs and workflow http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=377617

I used 2.4b, I haven't install 2.4d yet.

- A strange bug. dragging a keyframe value in motion graph changed the value of another keyframe far away, outside the in and out range. So you think you are changing the value you dragged, but you're really changing another, one that wasn't even selected. You can notice that because the value you dragged in is not yellow marked, and the in or out frame field has changed to include the frame you have changed. Also the current frame field is showing the frame it's been changed. Usually the frame marker moves immediately to the keyframe you select in the curve, so it looks like a bad bug. By selecting another key and then selecting the one you want to change again make it works fine again, otherwise you can keep dragging the value and changing the wrong frame forever. And you still have to fix the one that has been accidentally changed. This happened a couple of times only.

- Previews: frame counter jumps after 100 frames to 1100, 200 to 2000 etc.. I'm interpreting this counter in the wrong way?

- Previews: for short previews all works fine,but when I created a final preview for 900 frames, the result was not synch with the audio. I rendered a raw sequence of frames and the result was synch, but I could not trust the preview ?The avi file showed a 24,390 fps instead of 24 I set, could it be that the reason? if so, why 24,390?

- Audio: offset is lost in the play tab after saving the scene, the audio plays in the correct position but the field is reset to 0, so you'd better to to write this offset down before you close. The audio wave is not drawn properly when offset is used, it is partially cleared (precisely around the frame marker, what a happy coincidence)

- the frame marker delete the wave when it pass through (that's could be a graphics issue I don't know)
- sometimes selecting a value (yellow dot) and dragging with LMB don't work, the point does not move. This also happen when multiselecting several values (blue dots) or curves. Also RMB draging. I think it always happen when you have several channels selected in the item list.
- the item list does not refresh, you have to click on it, maybe a graphics problem
- Spherize has a major bug with the radious percent field, he values in the field don't follow the keyframes created in motion graph, nor the resulting animation does. Using the field minislider to set the keframes breaks it, but also creating keyframes in motion graph by MMB clicking usually don't work (not always, I have 1 success, 3 fails). Strange.

- "all channels" mode dont' work with sliders . You move one slider and not all channels get a keyframe (sometimes). Maybe it's intended that way, but again, it's confusing when your setting is all channels.

- pan button in worldview sometimes is not active and dragging on is interpreted as dragging in the viewport, changing a channel value. This happens while the "center current object" button, the one in the left, is off, of course. By clicking a couple of times in the "center current object" button to switch it on/off makes the other one accesible again.
- Many times Distort key range does not works for all the selected channels (curves) I tried all combinations (visible channels, all chan, etc... but it's the same). Sometimes it changes 2 curves, sometimes just the active channel,..
- Distort key range: if there are negative keyframe values in the curve, although the value axis center is 0 in the panel, it's drawn below 0 in motion graph , and the distortion process move zero values in the curve to the drawn center. I think if the value axis center is set to zero in the panel, it should be drawn as zero, and it should use zero to center the distortion.
- unchecking an object to appear in color buffer does not work.
- nor does the shadow or depth buffers (2.4b)
- render, animation range of 1 frame (200 to 200) does not work.
- Objects with several uv maps can lose their assigment in the texture image node after reloading the scene
- show render progress in window cannot open a window render and you have to restart messiah. This happens if you set preview to window and forget to check progress. After rendering the image the window pops up for a milisecond when the render is finished and won't appear again, no matter you check progress or not.

WoodyLWG
07-19-2006, 12:43 PM
Is anyone else having this problem? In 2.4d I can't insert the text cursor anywhere...
Say, for example, I want to rename a bone "Man_ForeheadSupport1_R" to "Man_ForeheadSupport2_R". I am currently having to double click the entry, hit the "end"
key on the keyboard, backspace to delete the 1_R entry and retype, instead of simply hi-
liting the number and replacing with "2". This is the most annoying aspect, but it shows
up everywhere except the blocks. Same behavior for Armatures, editing expressions, you name it. It's drivin' me nuts!
Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? :shrug:

catizone
07-19-2006, 01:41 PM
Yes, that's the way it's working. Hopefully, with the next revision, double clicking will place a cursor rather than highlight.Anyone else heard anything?

Best,
Rick

PaulNewman
07-19-2006, 02:40 PM
Is anyone else having this problem? In 2.4d I can't insert the text cursor anywhere...
Say, for example, I want to rename a bone "Man_ForeheadSupport1_R" to "Man_ForeheadSupport2_R". I am currently having to double click the entry, hit the "end"
key on the keyboard, backspace to delete the 1_R entry and retype, instead of simply hi-
liting the number and replacing with "2". This is the most annoying aspect, but it shows
up everywhere except the blocks. Same behavior for Armatures, editing expressions, you name it. It's drivin' me nuts!
Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? :shrug:
Well, in messiah 2.4d I can use the arrow keys to get my cursor somewhere and then edit. I don't need to backspace and retype. And the problem is not everywhere. For instance in the materials list it works as expected. For me at least.

As for future updates, well, I'm versionally challenged, so there's no knowing if the fact that I can't find such a text cursor problem in the future is due to messiah steadily improving or me being uncertain about the future version I may be using in the past. :curious:

WoodyLWG
07-19-2006, 03:11 PM
Exactly the problem fellas. Good to see that I'm not alone here.
So this is an easy fix, right Taron? :)

Double click=place cursor
Triple click=hilight entire line (would be nice)

Taron333
07-19-2006, 09:27 PM
Problem solved already! Comes in the coming patch! I noticed it a while back already and was a bit shocked. When the light list issue came up we thought we found the only problem and solved that, but that fix caused this new problem....tisk...just how we love it. But, yeah, we've got it all working fine now! :thumbsup:

WoodyLWG
07-20-2006, 12:05 AM
:applause: I knew you guys were on it! Thanks Taron. :)

PaulNewman
07-29-2006, 11:39 AM
If you create an AVI preview under the Play tab and check the label frame ON, then it produces an AVI labeled as follows:
frame 0 = 00000
frame 99 = 00099
frame 115 = 001115
frame 263 = 002263
frame 750 = 007750

DMack
08-02-2006, 10:46 AM
I'm just setting up my new machine (ooooh) and just want to know which version of animate to install. There was a flurry of releases a while back, 5.4a - 5.4d and before I update to 5.4d (the obvious choice), I just want to check that it is the best to install. Lastly, I got messiah animate at version 5 (5.0?), does the latest patch update from that or do I need to go to 5.2 or 5.4 first?

Also, Taron, the patch you mention, any ideas as to when that might be out?

Thanks.....

PaulNewman
08-03-2006, 04:22 PM
If I load an image into Image Manager and make it an image sequence and then delete it, messiah does delete it but a reference to the image incorrectly exists in the image viewer popup.

The 2 crossed out images (image sequences) below were deleted but they still show in the image manager...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/SASHOF/gui_04.gif

...while if you look at the image list they are in fact deleted.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/SASHOF/gui_03.gif

Only when I reload the scene, does the image manager's image viewer update the deletions.

PaulNewman
08-03-2006, 05:27 PM
Perhaps someone else wants to also test to confirm this as a bug?

Set up a spot light and in the Light Block select an image which has been set up as an Image Sequence (do this under the Play tab with the Image Manager). Project onto an object or the floor. For me it renders black. Double check by selecting a still image and rerender. For me the still image renders fine through the light projector.

Image pulldown: (Spot only) Choose an image to project through the spotlight, making it like a slide projector-- or movie projector if the image is a sequence.

PaulNewman
08-03-2006, 05:41 PM
Perhaps someone else wants to also test to confirm this as a bug?

Set up a spot light and in the Light Block select an image which has been set up as an Image Sequence (do this under the Play tab with the Image Manager). Project onto an object or the floor. For me it renders black. Double check by selecting a still image and rerender. For me the still image renders fine through the light projector.My final test for this confirms that messiah renders only the 1st frame of an image sequence when applied to a spot light projector. When exactly the same image sequence is texture mapped in the same scene onto an object, it correctly renders the video clip playing from frame 0.

The reason I got black in my previous test was simply because frame 0 was black.

For me this is a confirmed bug.

PaulNewman
08-04-2006, 10:51 PM
http://s3.amazonaws.com/SASHOF/gui_09.png

Simple default scene, a plane for texture mapping, a 1400x1200 image sequence of 476 frames long (specified in the Play Tab under Image Manager).

Map image on plane, set to render from 0 to 475.

At this point the total system memory in use just before render (OS + messiah + scene) was 600MB.

Hit render and watch the RAM run up 5MB per frame, a steady climb in RAM usage until 128 frames later the RAM usage is 1.25GB. I took a screenshot before it crashed. Once the render is stopped, even if not running on virtual memory, messiah does not clear RAM. This test rendered at only 2 seconds per frame - perhaps not enough time to unload? The exact same happens when rendering complex scenes which render at 5 minutes per frame.

The only way to clear memory is to let messiah run till it crashes or to quit and restart the render, picking up where you left off.

Of course anyone is welcome to also test to confirm this bug. I've seen it in production and in a test. For me it is a confirmed bug.

PaulNewman
08-07-2006, 02:00 PM
After having a Motion Dynamics Spring setup and editing the start and end points in the popup lists, the Auto generated rest length is no longer reliable and requires that the scene be reloaded before animating.

Do this as a simple test:

Create a FlexMotion curve with 3 points, each 1 unit apart.
Add Motion Dynamics, SHIFT+select the 3 points, click Make Branch Spring
assuming you had a perfect spring creation with no cleanup you should have 2 springs
click the first spring and look at the Auto rest length - it should be 1.0
click on the 2nd spring and rest length should also be 1.0
now select 1st spring: start should be curve_point_1 and end should be curve_point_2
change end to curve_point_3
1st spring: start should be curve_point_1 and end should be curve_point_3
auto rest length for the 1st spring should now be 2.0, but it's not - it's still 1.0
now save scene and reload
go to Motion Dynamics Springs and check out the rest length now = 2.0!
change spring_1 end back to curve_point_2 and the rest length remains 2.0 instead of 1.0
save and reload scene - fixed!

PaulNewman
08-08-2006, 12:44 PM
Motion Dynamics - Springs - value entry bug.

When you select the first spring and enter values like Strength, Weight, Damping, etc., those entered values are automatically also entered for the 2nd spring. You then need to select the 2nd spring and edit the values back to what you want them to be. This does not affect the 3rd spring.

PaulNewman
08-09-2006, 10:57 AM
With Soft Body Dynamics' Start Time set to 350 everything works fine until I reload the scene and then the Start Time button is by default deactivated, making the simulation start prematurely.

If you had a SB setup done and you reload and hit render, you may find that the results are not as when you set it up!

I did not test release time, but it may suffer the same problem.

ThomasHelzle
08-09-2006, 02:44 PM
messiah not saving parameters has an unbelievable long history... :banghead:

But in your case, I would rather suggest baking the dynamics for relieable rendering and scene handling. All the realtime effects in messiah are better baked out anyway.

Cheers,

PaulNewman
08-09-2006, 08:52 PM
Soft Body Dynamics with collision detection set up on a moving object works perfect in the GUI, but as soon as I hit render, the collision fails completely and the cloth falls through the collision object. I tried exporting the cloth using SaveMorphSequence, but exactly the same failure. All I could do was create an AVI Animation Preview under the Play tab. But that's not a final render. This was collision between 2 subD objects. I also tried making the collision object a frozen mesh, but same problem.

The solution was to forget using collisions, and set up a bone to tie the cloth to the moving object by parenting the bone to the moving object. This worked for this scenario, but most likely won't work for other stuff.

This failure cost me a night's rendering to find out that the cloth just fell through. I have no idea why it does this nor why SB's do not produce the same render result as was setup in the GUI :shrug:

stooch
08-10-2006, 01:05 AM
you should always bake any dynamics before you render. ALWAYS.

PaulNewman
08-10-2006, 01:28 AM
you should always bake any dynamics before you render. ALWAYS.Thanks for the tip stooch. :thumbsup:

I did eventually bake.

PaulNewman
08-12-2006, 06:34 PM
With a spring system setup in my scene, after some time my camera gets "caught up" in the spring system and camera motion gets constrained on the springs regardless of previous camera keys. When this happened the first time I was very alarmed since I had a lot of keying work on my camera. Turns out this only affects the first camera in the scene. I duplicated the camera and the second camera was OK again and never did suffer the same except after the duplication some Bezier handles were mangled and I had to manually edit them again. Although I have not managed to clinically reproduce this problem, it did happen time and again even on different scenes. I did check to see if the camera was not accidentally selected as an object in the spring system, but no. If it was, a spring would have been created from the camera to another object. This problem I'm having is the camera being constrained on the spring's path in 3D space - freaky. So my scenes now have 2 cameras - one messed up one and one duplicated good one. I keep the messed up one else the good one also becomes messed up.

Messed up, huh?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

PaulNewman
08-12-2006, 06:37 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on this?Since my spring system was made from a flex motion curve, could it be that the camera was in fact being constrained to the flex motion path?

But why? And how can it just do this by itself in the middle of nowhere if I did not specify any relationship?

ThomasHelzle
08-12-2006, 07:11 PM
I have no idea, but could it be that this is still some "dirt" left over from that other weird problem with the springs not updating themselves correctly until the scene was reloaded? Maybe there is more to that then an uncleared item list - we had random stuff happening with spline points some time ago (they did mess up their order when switching between setup and animate) so maybe there is something similar going on now?

Just guessing though... :shrug:

Cheers,

catizone
08-15-2006, 05:13 PM
Hey guys, is it me or is this funky? On Flex and adding points, I don't recall in the past having it make the point, then jumping to the Point so I have to reselect the Curve, and then I can add another point. Seems like a real pain to have it kick back out everytime, as opposed to drawing them sequentially.



Best,

Rick

stooch
08-15-2006, 05:18 PM
HAHA, i have no idea whats up but i guess yuo can try baking the camera as well eh ? lol jk. what a weird problem.

DMack
08-15-2006, 05:28 PM
Th graph options to auto fit keys - they should auto fit the curve, including interpolation, not just the actual keys.Does PMG actually read these? Be good to hear confirmation at some stage!

PaulNewman
08-15-2006, 08:16 PM
HAHA, i have no idea whats up but i guess yuo can try baking the camera as well eh ? lol jk. what a weird problem.Baking...LOL :scream:

Weird all right. My workaround seems to be holding just fine though. :thumbsup:

timnhe
08-16-2006, 10:01 AM
Hi,

I have a big problem with the compose module. I have a character with 6 animations tracks and other 5 poses.

The animation is around 2 minutes and I have 2 tracks, the first for the body and the second is for the facial animation, and when I go to the compose module to add a clip to my track or simply change the name of the clip, messiah frezze`s around 85 senconds !! ONLY TO CHANGE THE NAME !!

It is an example to my scene (http://perso.wanadoo.es/tim_nhe/ejemplo.zip). Any of yours can verify this bug?

thanks!!

catizone
08-16-2006, 11:41 AM
Only had a moment to try it before I left for work. I tried to change the name and froze. Tried it by double clicking on the clip name...also tried changing it in the naming box...both froze. I see the scene length is over 3,000 frames! Are the motion clips very long as well?

Also, altho' probably not the reason I froze, I see the warning that it can not find your temp directory folder on my system (of course)....but I doubt that is the problem. HAven't had time to look thru the whole scene.

Best,
Rick

timnhe
08-16-2006, 01:28 PM
Thanks for your time Rick,

is possible that my scene is corrupted, I donīt know, but Iīll like to know if any of yours ussually works with non linear animation in compose and have been this troubles before.

Thanks!

catizone
08-16-2006, 03:20 PM
I don't know if it's corrupted as much as having something fighting to calculate, perhaps? Not able to try it at the moment.

If you have the content from messiah, I believe there was a sample scene for compose. Try loading that, and try renaming the clip to determine if it is some problem in the new version.

Best,
Rick

PaulNewman
08-21-2006, 03:51 PM
This possible bug was discussed in Gary's superb SSS thread and I'm linking to the posts for the record:

my tests showing unexpected behavior (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3799326&postcount=240)
Thomas' insightful reply (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3799395&postcount=241)

stooch
08-22-2006, 07:02 PM
really annoyed with the Object point of view in messiah. Im trying to aim lights and cameras using this view and it goes berserk on me. my items end up flying off screen and my rotations get screwed up. I align my povs with all the clunkiness (weird rotations on bank, feels like my item isnt even in world coordinates but some kind of other coordinate system that isnt aligned with world) and then when i switch to perspective, my object isnt even pointing the right way!!! WTF is up with this? In general its super awkward to navigate in item views, why cant this be more like LW?????

chikega
08-22-2006, 07:13 PM
This is a long standing bug. I was dissapointed to still see it there after a year of half absence. I like to aim lights at objects as well and the manipulator doesn't work on Local within the Viewport ... it only translates in World axis.

I tend to use the Target expression tying the Camera to a Null. It may even be useful to use an Armature to make the Null easier to select since it's usually embedded within the object that you're rendering.

stooch
08-22-2006, 07:14 PM
This is a perspective view. Notice the light objects edit sphere isnt even aligned to world (its rotation is zeroed out)
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/2258-1/fup1.jpg

So i move on Z by pressing SHIFT / ALT and RMB. As i dolly forward the edit sphere all of a sudden flies in from above! Something tells me that this is partially responsible for the horrendous interaction problems im suffering from!

http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/2260-1/fup2.jpg

In general, the navigation in messiah is making me angrier by the minute. why do i zoom in with ANY view with ALT CTRL LMB drag?
why would i want to zoom in with a light? a box? a bone?

I expect to DOLLY with that command with anything OTHER then camera...

I could go into long tirade on how the current navigation sucks, but ill make it short by saying that LW does it right. thats what i would expect from messiah as well.

selecting an item and then having the widget appear in the middle and trying to move that item by clicking on the widget (even though alot of times i just end up clicking on other crap under the widget) and then trying to move my item constrained to an axis only to find that my pivot is somewhere in outer space and my view is orbiting it is frustrating to say the least!

ThomasHelzle
08-22-2006, 07:30 PM
In general, the navigation in messiah is making me angrier by the minute.
For my person that makes it about ~3,153,600 minutes. Can you tell I'm steaming? :twisted: :banghead:

Cheers,

stooch
08-22-2006, 10:49 PM
For my person that makes it about ~3,153,600 minutes. Can you tell I'm steaming? :twisted: :banghead:

Cheers,

hey have you tried CA in XSI? i just installed the free trial to see how that stuff works.

ThomasHelzle
08-22-2006, 10:57 PM
I just start with that part, but what I've seen so far was very nice.
Better ask David, he has actual production experience and seems to have encountered some bad stuff.

But at least you should love the navigation.
Moving the camera is exactly the same as moving a perspective view.
It just works intuitively.

Cheers,

stooch
08-23-2006, 02:00 PM
I just start with that part, but what I've seen so far was very nice.
Better ask David, he has actual production experience and seems to have encountered some bad stuff.

But at least you should love the navigation.
Moving the camera is exactly the same as moving a perspective view.
It just works intuitively.

Cheers,


haha, well i cant say i LOVE the navigation, the bastards make me use O, S and Z to do things that i normally do with just ALT??? wtf. Yes i know all about the option in the camera tools to make ALT the navigation shortcut, but then you compromise other tools... that and its weirdly setup, i would expect to orbit with left mouse button and pan with right mouse button and zoom with mouse wheel but i guess thats just something ill have to get used to.

I gotta say though, XSI is pretty neat, it feels sooo polished and sooo well organized. LOVE the history stack! HATE the modeling flow! LOVE the speed and stability!

so far I am impressed, im doing the tutorials that come with the program and its coming along nicely. I can see how i might stick with XSI down the road, although its a tossup between xsi and maya from where im sitting.

havent touched on the CA toolset yet and that is going to be a deal breaker for me if it isnt as fast as messiah... damnit PMG!!! when are you guys going to realize that badass animation tools are in short supply and make yours BULLETPROOF! Forget the rendering for now...

ThomasHelzle
08-23-2006, 02:28 PM
Well, I use only "S" for navigation.
After I've gotten used to it, I have to say that I prefer it over all the other solutions I know.
It is crazy to throw away a full modifier key for just navigation IMO.
XSI uses Shift, Control and Alt for a very impressive workflow - especially for modeling. (This is the part I love most actually ;-) )

BTW. Softimage seems to be working on that CA speed. I read on the mailinglist that on Siggraph they showed a 16,000,000 poly character playing back realtime. You can't even load that in messiah ;-)

But I haven't done any CA projects with it so I can't really give any educated comments.
For my design and illustration work, it is a clear winner.
Price for value is absurdly good.

Cheers!

DMack
08-23-2006, 02:44 PM
But at least you should love the navigation.
Moving the camera is exactly the same as moving a perspective view.
It just works intuitively.

Cheers,

NOOOOOOOO! This is what Luxology have done with Modo and it drives me CRAZY! The best camera navigation, IMO, by far far far is Lightwave's - no question about it for me. The only thing I'd change is to have a qualifier key to jump between moving the camera and rotating it. The perspective system is fine for spinning around an item for modelling but for actual camera movement/framing shots etc it is a GIANT pain in the butt! It is the only thing in modo that drives me mad! The dollying gradually slowing down as it reaches the point of interest/spin axis - man that drives me mad! NO NO NO No NO. Copy lightwave's camera navigation and perspective navigation - don't look anywhere else! Rant over!

ThomasHelzle
08-23-2006, 02:55 PM
LOL aren't humans fun LOL

Cheers,

DMack
08-23-2006, 03:08 PM
Yep! :) Which is why sw needs to be super customizable!

That 'perspective' camera navigation is awful for doing work where the camera moves around a lot.:banghead:

dobermunk
08-23-2006, 08:59 PM
My major gripe: a known motion blur bug (that rendered falsely even to a vectormotion pass) being denied by support, 2 weeks before a patch was released that squatched it...


Other things (CA):
- morph deformation is handled seperately from bone deformation and there are (or were) discrepencies in their use as clips. Drove me ***ing mad.
- curve management is -err- a subjective issue. I don't like the way the software tries to edit with me. I just want to grab the keys and clean up bezier points manually
- try to get a little mini-dope sheet running parallel to your curve editor. Holy buh-jeezus! Scale one and the tediously lined-up pair is off-skew once more. I found one after much research using some alternative options (if I recall, RV something-or-other) which worked great - but only for one object!!!

I also have to say that my general experience was dampened by project specifics. Once the incredible AndyAlias came on board, things like uncontrollable curves and things were resolved as my inexperience. The above things are the stuff I recall as particularly annoying and beyond Andy's knowledge as well. My overall impression of XSI remains positive. Still selling my copy of advanced, but... positive.

stooch
08-24-2006, 04:32 AM
good to hear your side of it.

how would you rate messiah, xsi and maya in CA terms? i have much experience with maya but the whole rigging part proved a pain in the ass. Messiah is just oh so nice.

motion builder? any thoughts? i need something with good SBD and would love to have hair, that kinda leaves only maya, C4D and xsi, i heard that c4d has pretty shitty CA though.

Suricate
08-24-2006, 09:03 AM
i need something with good SBD and would love to have hair, that kinda leaves only maya, C4D and xsi, i heard that c4d has pretty shitty CA though.

Hair and cloth are quite nice in C4D, but the general CA is pretty awkward: tedious setup, very slow replay and no proper dope sheet. So maybe a combination of C4D and messiah might be something to think about ...

dobermunk
08-24-2006, 09:19 AM
how would you rate messiah, xsi and maya in CA terms? i have much experience with maya but the whole rigging part proved a pain in the ass. Messiah is just oh so nice.
XSI and maya are both really capable - imo too capable. While XSI is more accesible, both seem - let's say - team-oriented. They can ultimately do more. Also worth mention here, they have large communities where you can find resources and assistance. Think of all the auto-riggers available for maya... I like Maya's key / curve management, though messiah's could be better with a bit of attention. You have to be a bit careful with the XSI bunch - they tend to scalp newbies, imo - and there's an air of arrogance akin to once-mighty empires. Think of France insisting that computer-english be frenchified. (Okay - come skewer me! I'm in a fightin' mood!) That said - they are a damned talented bunch.
I agree with you - messiah is the ONLY software that invites me to experiment. With all other software, I feel like someone is peering over my shoulder, waiting for me to mess up and then - everything's broken. I can rig with messiah - and I am a -ahem- limited td. More important, a capable td can work with the things. Messiah is unique in that it accomodates both.

motion builder? any thoughts? i need something with good SBD and would love to have hair, that kinda leaves only maya, C4D and xsi, i heard that c4d has pretty shitty CA though.
I have no experience with mb. Never loloked into it after hearing that you can't really customize rigs. Good SBD - I've seen good stuff with messiah, though its certainly not an intuitive part of the programme. I wish Taron would finally come out and share his knowledge. He's let a few gems fall already, though - probably enough to figure it out.
Hair is only a reason not to render in messiah. You can export curves and generate fur anyway. If you're bringing it to LW for sasquatch, be aware that Sasquatch fur doesn't "read" the motion from messiah. It needs a bone deform for that. My experience: so what. Longer hair with splines, or export a null and have the hair object on that. Works fine.
Hmm. /me wants to try something like this. One thing after the other. Let me know if you go with messiah.

stooch
08-24-2006, 09:26 AM
ummm... you know ive been using messiah for quite a while right?

im just exploring new avenues...

dobermunk
08-24-2006, 10:11 AM
ummm... you know ive been using messiah for quite a while right?

Yeah - love what I've seen, too. Sorry if it came across otherwise. Just reacting to your exclusion of messiah because of haior in the project. Keep us up to date with your decision!

PaulNewman
08-24-2006, 03:00 PM
In the DMorph block, I can't type in values in the Offset and Pause fields. I can place my cursor there, but can't type anything. I can use the spinner to enter a value...but the spinner stops at 255...huh? OK, this sucks. I'll have to use SaveMorphSequence and export from 0 rather than from 350. Then there's no offset required.

At least DMorph detects the number of frames in the sequence automatically and Offset seems to work like you would imagine, although I didn't test it. The difference between how DMorph handles file sequences and how Image sequences handle them is completely contrary to the "learn once" ideology. Anyway that was discussed extensively in previous posts.

PaulNewman
08-25-2006, 10:43 AM
DMorph at times looses reference to the folder where the object sequence is in. Once when I reloaded messiah did not know where the object files were and the morph deformation was not applied. To solve I simply reselected a frame in the sequence in the correct folder. Now here's the weird bit... messiah also manages to loose this reference without reloading. In other words, let's say DMorph was set up and working OK in the currently loaded scene, and then I browse in another folder for a texture map, then DMorph looses reference and the deformation fails. When I go to DMorph to reselect the file sequence, it defaults to the last folder I was in - the texture map folder.

I have not tested this exhaustively, but this is happening all the time. It's not a show stopper if you are mindful of it, but it could trip you up rather badly.

I suggest that anyone using DMorph always first scrub the scene to check if the expected DMorph deformations are being applied, specially before hitting render.

stooch
08-28-2006, 07:02 PM
while working on the lightbulb lighting test - i stumbled upon a crash.

I have a fresnel gradient on the base of the bulb for the steel look.

I opened up the preset shelf and loaded the ShinyTest2 preset and assigned it to the same surface, keeping my original fresnel node material hooked up. When i hit render, messiah immediatelly crashes.

stooch
08-28-2006, 08:28 PM
another one. i assigned an HDRI to the environment surface and i cant turn the damn thing off! even if i go and select NONE for image! I also cannot change the texture to anything else, the preview sphere updates but the render seems to be using my original texture!

also, how the hell do you delete images?

svintaj
08-28-2006, 08:57 PM
Probably not a bug, but I like to have this changed:

It's not possible to use stiffness for the anchor in a IK chain.
Its rotation is always "loose" and not stiff at all.
So the user should be able to control the anchors stiffness. :thumbsup:

/ Svante

Stooch, you can delete images from the dropdown-menu in the Image Manager.:thumbsup:

PaulNewman
08-28-2006, 09:03 PM
also, how the hell do you delete images?Click the Play tab, then popup to the Image Manager, then select the required image, and on the 2nd popup with the image title on, select Delete Image.

This can also be done in the image manager while editing the texture map, although doing it under the play tab allows image management with less mess.

stooch
08-28-2006, 09:06 PM
This can also be done in the image manager while editing the texture map, although doing it under the play tab allows image management with less mess.

you mean the little popup? i havent figured out that one... none of the shortcuts seem to work.

p.s. does anyone else find it mind-boggling that the image manager is in the play tab? Instead of ... oh i dont know ... the render tab?

seems that most of the time I would want to manage my images while texturing ....

svintaj
08-28-2006, 10:05 PM
Also not a bug, but...

If you choose "ACTIVE EDIT: All Items" for creating keyframes, then you suspect to set keys on all items in the scene. But Autokey will only create keys for the current selected item, bad, if I want that I would instead like to swich to "ACTIVE EDIT: Current Item".

So Autokey should set keys like the choosen "ACTIVE EDIT"! :thumbsup:

/ Svante

PaulNewman
08-29-2006, 08:14 AM
p.s. does anyone else find it mind-boggling that the image manager is in the play tab?Makes perfect sense to me. That's where I go to play with my images! :)

stooch
08-29-2006, 09:34 AM
the options for renderview (window, viewport, text) doesnt get saved between scene loads. also the checkbox for saving preview image always gets unchecked by default. feature or a bug?

ThomasHelzle
08-29-2006, 01:28 PM
I haven't tried it recently, but what works for me for some of the things you mentioned is to rightclick on the render tab and select: "Store all render params as defaults".

There is a similar right-click item on the Render->Settings subtab, there it is called: "Use current settings as defaults".

Maybe they are thought as global parameters?

Cheers,

DMack
09-01-2006, 02:41 PM
Perspective view doesn't seem to keep it's position and orientation when going between views. So I set the perspective view to see what I want, go to the camera view, do some changes and then go back to perspective view and wham, it's looking in a different direction to when I left it! V frustrating!!!

ThomasHelzle
09-01-2006, 05:57 PM
On an similar area:
Single, Double and Quad views store fully different views.
I'm sure this was done with good intentions, but 100% of the time I would prefer if it would work like in other software where you basically can single out one of the current quad views.
Or at least that a perspective view is the same across all three flavors as well as the planar views - that would make switching much more usable for me.

Thanks,

PaulNewman
09-02-2006, 09:40 AM
When an item is HardLocked (red lock in margin) I would expect not to be able to delete it... but I can.

Bug or feature?

PaulNewman
09-02-2006, 10:49 AM
Deleting items from the scene which have expressions on them causes messiah to crash. Crashed right while I was saving and corrupted the file - fortunately not much work lost. I must sort of guess in which order to delete stuff so that messiah does not mess up dependancies and crash. It would be cool if this was not as volatile and just handled gracefully.

ThomasHelzle
09-02-2006, 12:59 PM
This just stirs up one of my requests that I wasn't able to bring across yet:

Safe Save

Many programs do it already: When hitting save, they first save a temporary file with an arbitrary name. Then they rename the original file that you want to overwrite with something like scene.bak, then they rename the recently saved temporary file with the original name like scene.fxs.

This way, you always have a working scene, even if the program crashes in one of the stages - either the old scene is untouched or the new one is already in existence. The original is kept as backup (optionally) or deleted after the save was successful.
Nothing is ever really overwritten physically on disk.

In earlier versions of messiah I saw many "crash on save" cases which killed quite some scenes for me, they were only half written and therefore unusable afterwards. It happens less often now, but since the solution is so simple, I would really really recommend implementing this in messiah finally.

Cheers,

sadicus
09-18-2006, 11:23 PM
anyone else having trouble rendering particles?
i was trying out the Bubbles_Large that Taron posted:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=341051&highlight=particles

the render i get looks like white sprites.

rush123
09-18-2006, 11:37 PM
No problems here: :)

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/5826/particles01xe1.th.jpg (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=particles01xe1.jpg)

This is from the file posted in the link, it works here fine.

R

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