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View Full Version : lw 9 impact on messiah.


stooch
03-17-2006, 08:07 PM
so finally, we will have edge support and ngons, what does that mean for messiah? will messiah also support these seamlessly? also, any hints as to when we can see the next updatE?

dobermunk
03-18-2006, 11:30 AM
Here's hoping for word from the pmG:team...
I hope these things are supported - but also UV settings (linear, nurb, edge, etc.)...

stooch
03-18-2006, 05:04 PM
yeah im hoping for word pmg. rather then deathly silence.

Nichod
03-18-2006, 05:45 PM
Apparently you missed the entire thread talking about the update being ready and only one thing needs to be done?

Anyway. Ngons aren't a big deal to me, since using them is just bad modeling. The other items...it would be nice..I agree and I'll guess we'll see.

ThomasHelzle
03-18-2006, 06:20 PM
...since using them is just bad modeling
Exactly, god forbid that and all the other newfangled and peccable stuff like edgeweighting and miniskirts etc.

Sorry, couldn't resist >LOL<

Have a nice weekend! :)

Nichod
03-18-2006, 06:31 PM
Thomas....you know half the time I don't understand a thing you are saying. Nor do I understand why you say half the things you say.

dobermunk
03-18-2006, 07:03 PM
I can't bring myself to use n-gons, either.
Not even on a job using xsi. It was funny, actually - in a nerdy way: I modeled an n-gon and smoothed it. Cool. Unsmoothed it. It worked. Then a shiver went up my spine and I worked the mesh out to quads.

I guess its nice for capping 'hard" objects, but I wouldn't allow that in an organic model.

stooch
03-18-2006, 08:05 PM
Thomas....you know half the time I don't understand a thing you are saying. Nor do I understand why you say half the things you say.

lol, well then you have room for improvement. he was sarcastic.

sure you dont need ngons, but if someone uses ngons and tries to hookup to messiah what happens then? the model dissapears? thats not a very good connection. have messiah triple the offending ngons automatically then...

and what about edge weights? how can you animate a character made with edge weights and its all bloated in messiah ? etc.

Nichod
03-18-2006, 09:43 PM
I'm not saying your suggestions aren't good. I happen to agree with the edge weights. I don't agree with your opinion or the general opinion of the 3d developers accepting the use of poor quality modeling. Why does Messiah automatically need to do it? Why can't your modeler of choice do it? Or fix them manually? Personally I don't like programs automatically changing the meshes of my models.

DaveW
03-18-2006, 10:31 PM
Anyway. Ngons aren't a big deal to me, since using them is just bad modeling. The other items...it would be nice..I agree and I'll guess we'll see.

This is just one of those ridiculously untrue statements that boggles my mind every time I hear it. You're basically saying that someof the top modelers out there, like Steven Stahlberg and Bay Raitt are bad modelers (yes, they have ngons in a lot their models!)

There are tons of situations where having ngons is not a problem at all, and will save time in modeling and sometimes even make the model look better. I find them more useful in hard surface modeling, but there are many situations when they are appropriate in organic models as well. As long as it doesn't mess up deformations then it's not bad modeling.

All this nonsense about ngons being bad or sloppy was just so Lightwavers wouldn't feel about about not having them.

Nichod
03-19-2006, 02:14 AM
I'm not saying that they are bad modelers, just that its not the best idea to use ngons and they should be avoided when possible. Plus the modelers you are specifying are using ngons in there base models (box modeling), so of course they don't care about them, once subdivided they are gone. I can give you many examples where ngons cause problems. The use of ngons still should be on a case by case basis. If you'd like I can direct you to link after link of recent issues with ngons, everything from files that won't import into applications like maya, to issues with animating....for instance in the maya manual it even states to avoid ngons with organic models, that models deform better with quads.

I just think that pmg should focus on things more important then silly ngons. The best solution as stooch said would be to just trible the ngons on import. I'd rather that then them support rendering of ngons. Plus I'm just giving stooch a hard time:)

In regards to LW9. I don't think it will matter to Messiah. LW still doesn't have the best CA tools. And from the people I know using LW9 they say that its not impressive to them. But only time will tell...right?

toonafish
03-19-2006, 11:56 AM
This is just one of those ridiculously untrue statements that boggles my mind every time I hear it. You're basically saying that someof the top modelers out there, like Steven Stahlberg and Bay Raitt are bad modelers (yes, they have ngons in a lot their models!)

There are tons of situations where having ngons is not a problem at all, and will save time in modeling and sometimes even make the model look better. I find them more useful in hard surface modeling, but there are many situations when they are appropriate in organic models as well. As long as it doesn't mess up deformations then it's not bad modeling.

All this nonsense about ngons being bad or sloppy was just so Lightwavers wouldn't feel about about not having them.

I was about tp reply, but you said it all.

Parsec3d
03-19-2006, 01:20 PM
please don't ask them to auto triple ngongs that would be worse than not suporting them.
specialy for organic shapes...

ngons are part of a totally diff kind of smooth surfacing method and not an extencion of
metanurbs, that is in LW in MAya in MOdo or in XSI and yes they become quads
once subdivided , again inside their own particular method, i.e. Catmull-Clark


look no tris:

http://symbolcraft.com/graphics/subdivision/

DaveW
03-19-2006, 06:37 PM
I'm not saying that they are bad modelers, just that its not the best idea to use ngons and they should be avoided when possible. Plus the modelers you are specifying are using ngons in there base models (box modeling), so of course they don't care about them, once subdivided they are gone.
Of course they're using them in their base models. That's what is imported into messiah, and messiah won't subdivide the base model if it has ngons in it. That's the reason we're asking for ngon support in messiah.


I just think that pmg should focus on things more important then silly ngons. The best solution as stooch said would be to just trible the ngons on import. I'd rather that then them support rendering of ngons. Plus I'm just giving stooch a hard time:)

It's not the rendering of ngons we're after, it's metanurbing them. Messiah can already render ngons. Adding this to messiah (along with edge and point weighting) is no more a waste of time then adding UV support or particle rendering. It's a basic feature that's been missing for too long.

stooch
03-19-2006, 07:47 PM
I'm not saying that they are bad modelers, just that its not the best idea to use ngons and they should be avoided when possible. Plus the modelers you are specifying are using ngons in there base models (box modeling), so of course they don't care about them, once subdivided they are gone. I can give you many examples where ngons cause problems. The use of ngons still should be on a case by case basis. If you'd like I can direct you to link after link of recent issues with ngons, everything from files that won't import into applications like maya, to issues with animating....for instance in the maya manual it even states to avoid ngons with organic models, that models deform better with quads.

I just think that pmg should focus on things more important then silly ngons. The best solution as stooch said would be to just trible the ngons on import. I'd rather that then them support rendering of ngons. Plus I'm just giving stooch a hard time:)

In regards to LW9. I don't think it will matter to Messiah. LW still doesn't have the best CA tools. And from the people I know using LW9 they say that its not impressive to them. But only time will tell...right?

hey if YOU cant handle ngons and your models look like crap with them, then thats your problem. dont go around making such sweeping generalizations. I can handle my ngons just fine with no problems at all. if you cant then thats on you and i shouldnt have to compromise because of your deficiencies. no one is forcing you to use ngons even if they are included with the software. you seem to be happy without ngons, so why even share your unneeded opinion with us? anyway not trying to make this a pissing contest or give anyone a hard time, my simple question was how messiah would integrate with lw9. im not here to argue as to what messiah SHOULD or SHOULDNT have.

ThomasHelzle
03-20-2006, 10:59 AM
From the videos on the Newtek website (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_demos.php), I would say they seem to have done a fantastic job with integrating the node based texture editor in LW9 (if it works as advertised that is).
You still have the old interface and it's speed for easy tasks, but if you want, you can open the node editor and decide per parameter if you want to use nodes on it or not. If you connect something to a parameter, it will be greyed out in the old interface...
Simply beautiful.

This will make it very easy for people to grow into nodes at their own speed.

Since the node feature set looks rather complete, messiah isn't needed anymore for the flexibility of nodes.

There was no video so far about better/faster radiosity, so this may still be a point for some people. But Kray and Fprime are better integrated.

The new adaptive subdivision and displacement functions in LW look interesting too... messiah keeps loosing grounds here.

Basically my impression from the features shown so far is, that messiah is still much better/faster for Character Animation compared to LW9, but rendering in messiah will be of even less interest to most people.

So creating a flawless CA tool would be the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

Just my two cent.

Cheers.

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