Advice on learning/evaluating Maya & Lightwave

[stewartjones]

Ok, so this is for a college yeah?!?!

So, why not ask some students what they would prefer to learn, and what they think would be more beneficial to them?

[antibob]

That’s a good point. We factored that in to the equation and they are split as well.

From a marketing stand point we feel that we will get more people in the door using Maya. Students manly want 3D experience, they don’t seem to care weather its Lightwave or Maya.



Most students surveyed have little experience with 3D so they are sorta clean slates.



Thanks,

ab

[stewartjones]

Ah, bummer! That could have sorted your problem out in no time!

To be honest, any answers that anyone gives you (including myself) are probably going to be a little biased. As you have experience in max, I guess it's just a case of you testing them out for a little while and seeing which package you think will be best suited.

I haven't used Lightwave myself (well, I did for about 5 minutes about 2 years ago), so I can't really judge between the two. Regarding XSI, Max, and Maya, I would have to choose Maya over the other two, but only due to MEL scripting.

Yeah, so I guess you're just gonna have to test them out some! I would think Maya is more widely used in the industry, so that could be a big pulling point (if Lightwave is used more I will be a little shocked, as I don't know of anywhere at the moment!).

Sorry I can't be any more helpful dude.

Cheers


-Stu

[reven]

i am a student at a community college...we have Maya...and i will say that it is really a complex program...i have never used lightwave...and i love Maya as a program...but, it is also my experience that the class (which i am repeating now for the third time) has a huge drop rate due to the amount of time involved in learning it...we only have one class a week( and the rest is up to the student) and the instructor's approach is to start out the first night with thinking about storyboard...and only flies through each class...so, the amount of tutorials and help from cgtalk members that i do makes the difference for me...but, other than getting a brief idea about working in 3d, i am not sure that lightwave would cut it for someone seriously interested in a profession in 3d! i have worked in 3ds max...and i much prefer maya!

[JYoung]

For educational purposes, I'd be looking at which app is used more in the industry. Might be hard to get exact numbers, but even a general estimate would be a good start. The general feeling I've gotten(without getting into an app war), is that lightwave is mostly used in smaller studios being that it's budget friendly, with Maya(and Max for that matter) being used more in larger studios due to robustness and customization.

Maybe look at what other schools are using that offer a similar program? I took my first modeling and animation class at a community college using Maya and it was fairly easy to pickup. We use 3dsmax and Maya at my current school, and most of the schools I've looked into use Max or Maya. Haven't seen a lot of places teaching lightwave, but that may be due to Alias and Autodesk offering greater incentive to use their products.

If you need any help, I use Lightwave at work, Maya for most of my personal projects, and know Max as well. I'd suggest learning one program first, getting an overall feel of how it works, and then moving on to the next.

Edit: Why aren't they considering 3dsMax at all? If anything, Max and Maya are the two largest/most well known programs.

[dunkelzahn]

Same goes for me. I´ve worked with Max and Maya, as well as having a glimpse at Lightwave.

The industry argument is very strong. Maya is very strong and most companies I´ve worked for prefer Maya over Lightwave. However I did an evaluation between Max and Maya for studies two years ago. So I´ll just spill the bare facts of Maya:

Positive:

-Modelling, Animation, Rendering tools very strong
-Artisan and Paint FX tools
-Vector renderer for integration into flash and creation of 2D construction plans
-Great amount of tutorials, shaders and scripts on the web
-MEL scripting language
-Far spread in the industry
-Custom tailored GUI possible

Negative:

-HIGH learning curve for college students
-Long render times
-Uncertain future due to recent merge of Autodesk and Alias
-Great amount of complexity


Now, what I heard and seen of Lightwave (Beware, it is not much, any experienced Lightwave will give you a better judgement, so you´re better off asking them):

Positive:

-Good rendering and modelling tools
-One of the fastest renderers in the industries
-Fast learning curve

Negative:

-Mediocre animation and rigging tools
-Not far spread, i.e. not a lot of jobs nowadays

Well, hope that helped, however better ask some Lightwave people before passing the final judgement. I also remember, that Lightwave is quite cheap ($795.00) when compared to Maya´s price ($2400). So that might be an argument when calculating your possible budget...

Chris

[frontjibi]

I've used Lightwave for a month when i got into 3d. The thing about lightwave was at that time is that it was too dam hard. I couldn't figure it out. I tried so hard yet couldn't get it in my head. It was bunch of nonesense. So i switched over to Maya because i heard so many good things about it and the industry uses it well. When i got into Maya, the light shined up for me. Things started to make much more sense. I loved Maya at the start. It was perfect. It was exactly what i needed.I would say Lightwave is a pieace of crap. If you are new to 3d and learning Lightwave, better get ready to be disappointed and discouraged. That software will look like some kind of science/math stuff instead of 3d.

I would highly recommend Maya even for a beginner. Very usar friendly and not really hard to learn. People just exagerate this part. Don't be shy if it's a complex program. It's an excellent program that you would enjoy working with.

[Venkman]

What caused me to switch to Maya recently (from Cinema 4d) was the character animation tools. I saw a solid demo of Maya 7, the integration with MotionBuilder, and the new Full body IK. I couldn't wait for Cinema 4d to maybe someday catch up in terms of CA.

Also, the availability of Renderman for Maya and multiple choices of render engines, the sheer amount of training available (DVDs, classes, books) compared to other programs made a huge difference. If I were independently wealthy and didn't have to work for a living, it would still take me years to go through all the training materials available in Maya. And it comes out faster than I can learn it. There is a massive, active community and many jobs list it as a requirement or at least as a plus on job descriptions.

Type in Lightwave 3d on some job search sites, then type in Maya. See what you get!


Also, try to learn just one 3d program first, whatever it may be. Once you grasp the concepts in one program, you can jump between programs easier and learn others faster. Spreading yourself too thin too early will make you a jack of all trades and master of none.

[Venkman]

Well, hope that helped, however better ask some Lightwave people before passing the final judgement. I also remember, that Lightwave is quite cheap ($795.00) when compared to Maya´s price ($2400). So that might be an argument when calculating your possible budget...


I got Maya for much less than that- $1900. Free shipping and no tax.

http://novedge.com/Alias_MayaComplete_Win.asp


But yes, Lightwave is cheaper, and the renderer is pretty sweet! And fast... :drool:

[siproductions]

They are both good packages. I have used both of them in a production pipeline. But if it is for students who want to work on films, do them a big favor and go with Maya. It is used much more in the film industry than Lightwave. Before you LW guys yell at me let me say: I know lightwave has been used on lots of movies but the majority of the work is normally done in Maya or proprietary software.
Cheers,
Simon

[Lique]

we are building a 3D modeling & animation program

If its got character animation in the plan, choose maya. I've been using lw for more than a few years, what I can say is, it is not good for character stuff.

If you only plan on doing simple animation like flying ships, then you may find lw is more than enough. I'm not sure about lw as a fast renderer, especially if you turn on anti-aliasing, motion blur or enable the radiosity, the speed will just drop drastically.

and yeah I agree with fast learning curve for lw.

[Emiliano]

We have been teaching LW to formerly MAX users.
It was very easy for them to learn, and it's very powerful.

Personally I think that Character Animation is beyond the tool,
Students can apply the theory in Hash, Max, XSI, Maya, C4, LW or blender...

So ... maybe the easiest software to learn can be the best option just to not make an obstacle in the "high step learning curve"

Then each user can move to the next level, and choose whetever software suits bests

(Anyway I have to admit that I want to learn Maya in addition to Lightwave :) )

Bests

[T.S. Cosky]

Here is the deal bob. Ultimately it's going to boil down to how well you can teach the program and the techniques to the students. Since your primary understanding is in MAX I would recommend they go with MAX. It has a higher cost for the educational licencense but it is established in the industry. It's also has a lower learning curve than Maya, but isn't as flexible as Maya. There is plenty of info out there for Max as well.

Maya is great too and students can get the free educational license to practise with. However Maya has a very high learning curve when you get past modeling. It won't be so much of a problem IF you can teach things like mental ray, shader nodes, deformations, fluids etc... with skill. YOU need to understand the program well and you won't be able to do it by dinking around with the program for six months. You WILL have to get the training dvd's from digital tutors, The gnomon workshop, 3dbuzz, as well as a few books such as rendering with mental ray to get a good understanding of the program. You will also find yourself frequenting these boards as well. (max is looking pretty good right now doesn't it?)

Personally I believe if you can teach maya well to your students they will be much better off learning that program due to the work available for it. Otherwise go with MAX.

Another good program to consider is over lightwave is cinema 4d. This program is fairly easy to pickup (easier than Max, Maya, or Xsi) and is more capable in certain areas than lightwave is. It's only real weakness is its rendering engine, though 3rd party renders should be available soon for it. Cinema 4d is also getting a following in the industy as well.

Our School teaches both Max and Maya and we have some XSI licenses for those that are interested. We got rid of Lightwave two years ago. It's limitations, unconventional ways, and lack of market penetration were strikes against it. Also students that do understand what they are getting into will wonder why you didn't choose one of the more well established programs.

In the end I would ask the advisory board to reconsider on teaching MAX. If your platform of choice is Macintosh then go with Cinema 4d since that is the most stable 3d app on the Mac. (also the graphic designer types will probably like using cinema4d more than the other programs)

[siproductions]

http://www.3drender.com/jobs/jobcount.htm

It's a slightly older link but still very true. Just from a numbers stand point Maya takes the cake as far as jobs go. Not saying it's a better package in all aspects. Just saying more studios use it. Why train in something easier to learn when your students will most likely have to make the switch to another software when they get a job anyway. At least with Maya they will have a great starting point to get off of and a wide variety of jobs available to them. Whereas I must say to the gentleman before me with all due respect that Cinema 4D may be a good program but practically it is as useful in landing a job at a major studio as Blender 3D is. Please don't take that as an insult to Cinema 4D (or blender). I agree with you that it probably is better than LW in some ways. It just simply isn't used as much.

That said this is coming from more of a feature film type of angle. If the teaching is geared toward a television or game type of production the playing field widens quite a bit as far as what package gets used the most.

[T.S. Cosky]

siproductions, no offense taken. I simply recommended it due to the fact it plays nice with the Mac (I'm not much of a mac user though, but the softwares track record of stability is better than others on that platform) and I felt that it's tool set is more inline with what max, maya, and xsi have to offer while offering a lower learning curve but giving the student to make the transition to Maya/Max/XSI easier. Where as Lightwave is has become something unconventional and archaic in alot of ways which would be counter productive to students looking for 3-d jobs at a studio. Frankly Lightwave should be the last choice on the list. True the market penetration is not good for cinema4d and it is used more as a secondary tool rather than primary but it is still a good generalists tool. Not everyone will end up doing film and the market for 3-d for architecture, games, and product visualization is pretty huge (another reason to use Max since these arena's are heavily dominated by Max not saying that Max is better or anything).

It is probably more important the the students learn the art for now rather than bog themselves down with the technical. Maya is a good choice and option so long as the teacher can teach it well. Otherwise you just end up with a bunch of fustrated students that spent way to much time figuring out how to eliminate artifacts in a render rather than create a great illustration. But that is just one lowly students opinion.

[whooosh]

I teach at two southern california schools as well as working as full time Environment Artist at a game company...here are my opinions;


College students aren't dumb, give them complexity (Maya) they'll learn it and benefit in the long run. The industry is either Max or Maya, lightwave is used, but primarily as a modeling tool. Old school pro's use lightwave to model, than import into Maya for everything else.

I've used Maya for 2 years, switched to a Max house...took me about 2 weeks to learn Max to a decent level. The question really comes down to...do you want your students to be able to get a job when he/she graduates, or do you want them to learn a tool that not everyone uses?

Working in the industry,two questions comes up when hiring new grads.
1. Do I want to hire this person that knows the tool already?
2. Do I want to hire this person that I have to pay them to learn a new software?

Keep in mind that hiring new grads already means that they have to learn the rules of the industry...combine that with having to learn a new tool, it's too risky.

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