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Igors
02-24-2006, 09:55 AM
Beta 1 - first results :)

bronco
02-24-2006, 10:07 AM
great igors!
this is very useful.
i think this is a great example of community driven development. :)

halfworld
02-24-2006, 12:00 PM
Open development like this really makes a nice change ;)

I'm impressed at what you have achieved in such a short time Igors!
Ian

FelixCat
02-24-2006, 03:01 PM
Wow! looks pretty good, great work :bounce:

FelixCat

kevmo
02-24-2006, 03:38 PM
wow that was fast!

looks good.

k!

Vizfizz
02-24-2006, 04:13 PM
Hey everybody.

I've had some discussion with the Igors concerning MrRevolver and its development. We are going to continue making the beta development experience a community effort as much as possible. Granted, there are some limitations. First off, everyone must realize that plugin development does take some time from start to finish. We must be sensitive to the Igors' time table. Next, involving the community doesn't mean we will get whatever we ask for. The programmers have their reasons for approving or denying certain feature requests due to limitations with a specific technology. Certain things may be obtainable, but require a huge investment in time. We must remember that the Igors program for a living. Any community effort to develop a technology for EIAS should be with the understanding that the Igors and their distributors are looking for a way to put food on the table too. Its my goal to make community driven software development a "common" and "desired" occurance for 3rd party developers. I think its important and it contributes to a stronger community. If anything, it also shows potential new users that we are a community that works together. That's a powerful testimony.

So...as we work on this software together. Just remember, there are going to be fast and slow times during the development. Be patient...but ultimately, be excited. :thumbsup: Lets work together to make EIAS an even better software package.

3DArtZ
02-24-2006, 04:44 PM
OH HELL YEAH!
Igors that looks great!
Me pretty excited!


Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com/)

iKKe
02-24-2006, 06:31 PM
Beta 1 - first results :)


As always you added something, this is not a standard revolve!

Great work Igors :thumbsup:

Hans

plsyvjeucxfw
02-24-2006, 06:59 PM
Columns and Widgets and Hats, oh My!

Looks great. This is proceeding along terrific lines, can't wait for the final product.

Igors
02-24-2006, 07:05 PM
OH HELL YEAH!
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com/)

Mike, it's not a hell - see the real hell in the project files (for each posted img) :)

As always you added something

And what is this something? :)
Hint: it's often called as "forth dimension"

Vizfizz
02-25-2006, 01:03 AM
Oh I don't know guys. The project files seem really straight forward to me. Looks pretty simple to operate. I'll be posting some shots of things in action hopefully this weekend.

Eterea
02-25-2006, 10:10 AM
Hey, Igors & Brian: thank you for this new WIP tool! :)

I have been very busy in the latest weeks and I did not saw that development. Today visit this forum and… oh yeah, it is great!!

Congratulations to Igors, Brian and all other people involved on this process.
Thanks to all and best regards.

Igors
02-25-2006, 11:02 AM
Hi, Cristobal

Hey, Igors & Brian: thank you for this new WIP tool! :)

I have been very busy in the latest weeks and I did not saw that development. Today visit this forum and… oh yeah, it is great!!

Congratulations to Igors, Brian and all other people involved on this process.
Thanks to all and best regards.

Thx for good words, but:

1. No subject to congratulate yet :) , it's only a development far away from the final product

2. How about your personal test of this strange revolve/lathe? We would be happy to see you in beta-testers team. Of course, no problems if you are busy and have no time

AVTPro
02-27-2006, 01:58 AM
This would make my Pheonix Project challenge a cinch.

Modeling in EIAS without a dedicated modeller wouldn't be such a big deal.

Vizfizz
02-27-2006, 05:18 AM
Igors,

Hey guys.. question on revolving child objects. What is the best method for revolving child objects. I have a dxf geometric object converted to fact that I'm revolving and its producing some strange geometry. In wireframe, the object looks great, but in shaded mode and rendered, there's some weird polys rendering. I'm assuming its the direction the poly lines were drawn causing normals to point in the wrong direction?

Brian

Vizfizz
02-27-2006, 05:36 AM
In reading the manual, vertex normals are sensitive when drawing within the plugin's internal cross section editor. You state:

Sometimes you see the plug-in generates inverted vertices and polygons normals (use EI Texture Window to view them). An auto-detection of correct (outward) normals direction would be enough complex and time-consuming for the plug-in. Instead just use a simple rule:

If you draw a vertical line in the shader’s graph, then the plug-in generates vertices normals with direction from left to right (in graph’s window) if the line goes from bottom to top (start point is at bottom). And vice versa, the generated normal points from right to left if the start point is at top. The point’s number is shown when you click it. The first point of graph is drawn with blue color.

Does this apply to child objects too?

Vizfizz
02-27-2006, 05:50 AM
Here's a picture of the child model's vertices.

Igors
02-27-2006, 10:05 AM
Hi, Brian

Igors,
I have a dxf geometric object converted to fact that I'm revolving and its producing some strange geometry. In wireframe, the object looks great, but in shaded mode and rendered, there's some weird polys rendering.
Brian
For this question (same as for many others) we've only one standard answer:

"Please minimize your prj up to minimum and send it to us"

Also.. how about to give/publish more info for users, for example, make the plug-in's draft doc available for people? We think no one can be very creative (as we ask) if he sees a few pictures only :)

Eterea
02-27-2006, 10:06 AM
Hi Igors, thanks for your offer on doing betatesting for MrRevolver. But as you say I am very busy now. Sorry :sad:

AVTPro
02-27-2006, 10:21 AM
Hi Igors, thanks for your offer on doing betatesting for MrRevolver. But as you say I am very busy now. Sorry :sad:


PLEASE if this is available for testing, I can start right now.

It would be a perfect solution for the Beak/spaceship. Please contact me if even if it's only temporary beta.

Igors
02-27-2006, 01:16 PM
PLEASE if this is available for testing, I can start right now.

It would be a perfect solution for the Beak/spaceship. Please contact me if even if it's only temporary beta.

Hi, Alonzo

1. AFAIK "beta-testing" means a testing of temporary betas :)

2. The order is: Brian tells us user's dongle, we back him an authorized plug-in

3. Beta-tester can ask for Mac OR PC version of the plug-in (but not both)

Vizfizz
02-27-2006, 04:49 PM
Concerning Betas.

I've been authorized 3 beta positions. One has been taken. If you're interested in beta testing, please private message me with you dongle number.

Vizfizz
02-27-2006, 06:05 PM
Hi, Brian


For this question (same as for many others) we've only one standard answer:

"Please minimize your prj up to minimum and send it to us"

Also.. how about to give/publish more info for users, for example, make the plug-in's draft doc available for people? We think no one can be very creative (as we ask) if he sees a few pictures only :)


Project file sent.

Sorry about some of the delays. Work got really hectic the past couple of days. Planning major Mr. Revolver push this week.

Igors
02-27-2006, 10:40 PM
MrRevolver beta 2 changes:

- fixed bug with child groups (beta 1 didn't process closed contours correctly)

- new option "Invert Normals" is added. The sentence about normal direction rules is removed from draft doc - it only confuses user without any reasons.

------------

All is ready for beta-testers. Here are several (absolute subjective) recommendations for them:

- don't be in hurry, please spend a few time to read the short draft doc and to test posted sample prjs;

- don't be in rush to use "Traveller" feature immediately - this crazy programmers' idea can easily damage your nervous/brain. First imagine a "revolve plan" in your head and only then try to implement it (not near easy);

- don't hesitate to inform about any bugs - only a program does nothing has no bugs;

- remember that a cool image/animation is the best answer/report always.

Good luck, gentlemen :cool:

Vizfizz
02-27-2006, 11:29 PM
I will be distributing beta 2 software by the end of the day. Hopefully sooner.

The following indivduals are on the beta team:

Mike Fitz
Alonzo Van Threet
Jedt Sitthidumrong
Ian Waters

Vizfizz
02-28-2006, 04:26 AM
Beta 2 plugins and samples have been delivered to the beta team.

Vizfizz
02-28-2006, 04:40 AM
MrRevolver beta 2 changes:

- fixed bug with child groups (beta 1 didn't process closed contours correctly)

Good luck, gentlemen :cool:



Works great. Geometry looks solid. Thanks.

Vizfizz
02-28-2006, 04:50 AM
Here's an interesting approach to things. By using two copies of the revolver plugin the in project window, one revolver defines the curve that is modified by bezier deformers while the second revolves the result. The final product allows you to modify and shape your revolved object on the fly and animate the surface through deformations.

The Igors included this with the sample files and I just had to share. Brings a nice smile to my face.

Igors
02-28-2006, 06:09 AM
Here's an interesting approach to things. By using two copies of the revolver plugin the in project window, one revolver defines the curve that is modified by bezier deformers while the second revolves the result. The final product allows you to modify and shape your revolved object on the fly and animate the surface through deformations.

Well, maybe there is other way to edit profile interactively in EI windows (also with Bezier etc.). Thinking..

yhloon
02-28-2006, 07:32 AM
Here's an interesting approach to things. By using two copies of the revolver plugin the in project window, one revolver defines the curve that is modified by bezier deformers while the second revolves the result. The final product allows you to modify and shape your revolved object on the fly and animate the surface through deformations.

The Igors included this with the sample files and I just had to share. Brings a nice smile to my face.


:applause:
this is interesting...
but the bezier II is limit to 4 segment control point which is not enough IMHO...

:rolleyes: how about motion path?! but motion path is not animatable...

may be another plugin development call Mr. BezierIII?

regards,
Loon

:applause:

halfworld
02-28-2006, 08:24 AM
Hehehe :)

Well, I'm gonna play with this tonight if I manage to forage for some spare time somewhere, I have a dozen ideas to try ;)

Toodles,
Ian

Igors
02-28-2006, 08:27 AM
:applause:
this is interesting...
but the bezier II is limit to 4 segment control point which is not enough IMHO...

:rolleyes: how about motion path?! but motion path is not animatable...

may be another plugin development call Mr. BezierIII?
:applause:
Our idea is a converter of motion path into a chain of lines (profile)

Igors
02-28-2006, 10:04 AM
Hehehe :)
Well, I'm gonna play with this tonight if I manage to forage for some spare time somewhere, I have a dozen ideas to try ;)
Ian
Our favorite formula is:

optimism * experience = constant value

;)

AVTPro
02-28-2006, 08:35 PM
Here's an interesting approach to things. By using two copies of the revolver plugin the in project window, one revolver defines the curve that is modified by bezier deformers while the second revolves the result. The final product allows you to modify and shape your revolved object on the fly and animate the surface through deformations.

The Igors included this with the sample files and I just had to share. Brings a nice smile to my face.


This is what I'm looking to do. Generate the bezier inside EI or with the help of Illustrator. No modeler or DXF. I assumed it would directly import EPS files from 2D packages or even PSD exported path. I would like to see the plug approach modeling from a 2D line drawing method and not so much 3D modeler.

This application would be for 2D designers.

Vizfizz
02-28-2006, 08:41 PM
This is what I'm looking to do. Generate the bezier inside EI or with the help of Illustrator. No modeler or DXF.

This application would be for 2D designers.


Unfortunately the Igors ruled out EPS/Illustrator input. That's their call. However, they are attempting to create an alternative.

Did you receieve my email with samples and beta software?

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 12:22 AM
Unfortunately the Igors ruled out EPS/Illustrator input. That's their call. However, they are attempting to create an alternative.

Did you receieve my email with samples and beta software?

Yes I did and that's the particular reason I am asking about this. I naturally assumed that Mr. Revolver being a modeler wouldn't need a modeler. So far, I have created points for a revolve and not bezier profiles. This would results in primitive lathes only (?)

Igors make excellent and thorough plugins, I still love Trooper, but omitting EPS should be reconsidered.

I believe the method you used will be enough for me right now.

BTW, I believe the last email you sent of samples. somehow got bounced back.

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 12:32 AM
This will work.

Mr. Revolve and Encage. Two Igors Plugs together. Again, My only concerne is that it takes two to do the job of one. :)

I guess two Igors are better than one.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/Revolver.jpg

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 01:06 AM
I tend to be hard when beta testing, hope I am not overdoing it...least in public.

Feature requests:


•Needs an Undo key for drawing profiles.
•Needs a reset profile button for reusing the same/dupicate plug on another object or,
•Needs multiple profiles, like PSD Paths palette.
•Needs to be able to copy and paste points of a profile.
•Profile lathing areas need to be able to display a pict in the background as a template.
•Grid snapping for points (depressing "X" key) or some type of point alignment snapping.



—Selecting mutliple points and dragging them are very good.

* bug, if you grab multiple points they will change proportions slightly

Creating spiral threads? Not sure how to offset, the lathe line should be adjustable.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/LightBulb.jpg

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 01:08 AM
Oops!! Just remembered the procedure for posting images. Sorry will send it to you first.

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 01:57 AM
This is what I'm looking to do. Generate the bezier inside EI or with the help of Illustrator. No modeler or DXF. I assumed it would directly import EPS files from 2D packages or even PSD exported path. I would like to see the plug approach modeling from a 2D line drawing method and not so much 3D modeler.

This application would be for 2D designers.

Well lets address this.

First off, generating bezier spline curves inside EIAS for modeling purposes is definitely the responsibility of the host program. I absolutely want to see this happen. Unfortuantely, the plugin API has its limitations. The Igors are working finding a way to internally generate spline curves for Revolver's use. Perhaps through animation paths, but ultimately, this is just a patch over a much greater requirement. Unless EITG includes some basic spline generating tools inside Animator itself, plugins like Bebel and Revolver are going to be dependant on limitations of the plugin API. Currently Revolver possess the ability to create cross sections within its graph editor. It needs some work, but we're getting there. Perhaps later versions will be capable of drawing curved lines within the cross section editor. Child objects are the current solution to creating more complex outlines for revolving...but I tend to agree with you. If you have to use a modeling package to make the dxf outline.. you might as well go one step further and make the model. However, by doing so you don't obtain the animation capabilties found within the plugin. Its a trade off.

As for EPS.. I've already posed that arguement. The Igors are opposed to it for technical reasons. Lets take a look at what they're cooking up, and maybe going down that road again wont be necessary.

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 02:03 AM
This will work.

Mr. Revolve and Encage. Two Igors Plugs together. Again, My only concerne is that it takes two to do the job of one. :)

I guess two Igors are better than one.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/Revolver.jpg



Creating smoother profile curves within the cross section editor currently require using more linear line segments. Along with the smooth controls you can create a reasonably smooth curve for revolving. I agree its more difficult and ultimately curve generation in the cross section editor is really important. Until then, child objects for rotation is the only other option.

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 02:08 AM
I tend to be hard when beta testing, hope I am not overdoing it...least in public.

Feature requests:

•Needs an Undo key for drawing profiles.
•Needs a reset profile button for reusing the same plug on a object or.
•Needs multiple profiles, like PSD Paths palette.
•Needs to be able to copy and paste points of a profile.
•Profile lathing areas need to be about to display a pict in the background as a template.
•Grid snapping for points (depressing "X" key) or some type of point alignment snapping.

—Selecting mutliple points and dragging them are very good.

* bug, if you grab multiple points they will change proportions slightly

Creating spiral threads? Not sure how to offset, the lathe line should be adjustable.



Your fine by listing your findings here.

Undo support would be nice.

I definitely agree with a reset profile button. Very important.

Multiple profiles would be cool, but you can save and load your cross sections. Right now, you'll need to build your own profiles. They should be available to share.

Templates would be nice. Right along with grid snapping and adjustable grid resolution.

Spiral threading by offsetting the revolve would be great.


Keep the ideas coming.

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 03:40 AM
Your fine by listing your findings here.



Keep the ideas coming.


Thanks.

Well, fresh out the gate, and in combination with Encage, I'm impressed. Building Geometries directily inside EI has the huge advantage of non-discrepancies with fact file imports and tesselation. What's nice is the two sets for Camera and Animator, like Encage or a proxy model.

I will see what I can do with the cross sections, when I look at this again.



ONLY Mr. REVOLVER for geometry. Encage was use to smooth it.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/Layout.jpg

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 03:43 AM
Fast Occlusion render. ENCAGE

Encage handled the smoothing. It's nice that while modeling you can click APPLY and it update the new changes from Revolver in the EI viewport.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/Revolverlamp2_10.jpg

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 04:14 AM
Nicely done Alonzo.

Looks like Encage is going to be in my purchase list. Its also my intent to convince the Igors to provide additional toolsets...namely lofting tools. When combined with Bebel, we should be able to model 75% of most hard surface things. If we can get a cross section editor within Bebel too..that would be great. That way users will be able to draw items for extrusion....but one thing at a time.

In the meanwhile... if EITG wants to contribute, I have one major request that would go a really looong way. Give us a method to generate modeling curves within Animator. Those combined with Bebel and Revolver/Lofter would go a long way.

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 06:39 AM
Thanks Brian. I understand that is acronym for Application Programming Interface, but that's about it. Can you explain to me the big problem with EIAS's API that everyone seems to complain about. How is it that no one has access to it? How is it that EI development team would limit access to it? And why? It's not like someone can give EI a virus if it was open. I understand that EI could is old, maybe they don't want to show their old code?

When I beta tested for Ramjac's Expressionist, I was intrumental in getting RamJac and EI talking about access by merely getting them to talk to each other. The problem was merely inter-office communication. The right hand didn't know what the left was doing. After they shook hands, all sorts of things opened up for XP users.

I don't get it, I know Matt Hoffman to be and extremely open to anything that makes EIAS more functional. What gives?

When you get time. Thanks.

YES. ENCAGE IS A MUST. also good for Zbrush Displament mapping.
Here's the Lamp without Encage. Same scene.

This is the first time I have modeled this fast. Just a few point and bam. I was done. It was so interactive It felt really different to model so fast. I almost felt like one of these CG Talk Speed Modelers hanging in these forums. LOL

However I did notice some limitation in the amount of points I could use to draw a curve. In most cases, very few points are needed.


Again. this have been a very pleasant relief. I may use this scene for a render test.
You guys keep up the good work

Lastly, I would perfer to see Igor make a fast pelting type UV Editor for EIAS. Something like Headus 3D tools. I know they can do it. Maybe they can rebirth TEXTURIZER.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/same.jpg

Hiddenman.fr
03-01-2006, 06:58 AM
What we absolutely need is a direct .eps import in EIAS. I am asking it for a long time but things don't seem to move. The new Igors purpose to be able to transform EIAS paths in curves readable by Revolver isn't the best solution (but is it a solution that they can implement for their new plug-in, so I understand). As .eps import function was part of the Modeler, why couldn't they add a part of the existing code to EIAS or combined it with Transporter? Open Transporter, select an .eps file, save as .fact and do what you want in EIAS. I think I'm dreaming cause EIAS world is a bit slow to evoluate. Hopefully russians are standing at the corner to make things changing.

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 08:19 AM
Thanks Brian. I understand that is acronym for Application Programming Interface, but that's about it. Can you explain to me the big problem with EIAS's API that everyone seems to complain about. How is it that no one has access to it? How is it that EI development team would limit access to it? And why? It's not like someone can give EI a virus if it was open. I understand that EI could is old, maybe they don't want to show their old code?

When I beta tested for Ramjac's Expressionist, I was intrumental in getting RamJac and EI talking about access by merely getting them to talk to each other. The problem was merely inter-office communication. The right hand didn't know what the left was doing. After they shook hands, all sorts of things opened up for XP users.

I don't get it, I know Matt Hoffman to be and extremely open to anything that makes EIAS more functional. What gives?



I'll try to answer your question, but I'm afraid its probably best left to EITG to answer. I am not a programmer. I just have a lot of experience in using 3D applications. The plugin and Shader APIs are a specific set of tools and instructions that allows third party developers to develop software that can access certain "hooks" into Animator's internal architecture and code. I've seen a number of various advancements in the APIs over the years. Some are cosmetic (like adding slider bars, interactive previews, etc) while others actually affect the way data is accessed to and from the plugins to the host program. What makes the API potentially troublesome is that 3rd party programmers are confined to what the API permits them to do. That is my layman's understanding of what's going on. I would also care to guess that EIAS' infrastructure may still possess code that, at the time, was never intended to be accessed by outside users. (Despite the first major moderization effort which we commonly know as Universe).

Once a particular infrastructure has been put into place, it can be difficult to just simply "open" it up. The fact that EIAS was written over 16 years ago is probably testimony to this. Pull one thread, and you unwind a number of things. Another issue may be, like you mentioned, is a failure to identify a need. When working at ILM, I helped TripleDTools develop Fyreworks. There was a specific requirement that was needed by the plugin to accomplish a specific task. It didn't exist. Like you, when I brought it forward to Matt Hoffman, they were quick to make the changes necessary...but unless we pointed it out, it may have continued to go unnoticed. Its not like EITG was holding something back, it just didn't exist.

Applications like Maya approach the whole process a little bit differently. In addition to having an API, Maya possesses MEL (Maya Embedded Language). MEL allows you to:

create custom effects
write macros
execute MEL commands that lack a corresponding user interface *** Very important
customize the user interface
bypass the user interface
enter exact values for attributes
change defaults settings not included in preference settings
customize Maya for a specific scene

For every call or function done in Maya, the program records a specific event. Its non-programmers way of getting into the program. Take a look:

sphere -p 0 0 0 -ax 0 1 0 -ssw 0 -esw 360 -r 1 -d 3 -ut 0 -tol 0.01 -s 8 -nsp 4 -ch 1;objectMoveCommand;
select -cl ;
select -r nurbsSphere1 ;
move -r 0 0 7.704333 ;
rotate -r -os -65.882413 18.667442 -78.798092 ;
delete;

You can pretty much figure out what's going on. Create a sphere at a specific place and size. Deselect and then select it again. Move it to a new location. Rotate it a certain number of degrees, and then delete it.

In Electric Image, we don't have this much versatility. Xpressionist went a long way to allow us the abilty to tap into animation channel data, so we can affect that, but we have no internal scripting language that allows us to get into the guts of what Animator is doing. I don't know if its even possible without another major overhaul of the program. Maybe during the port to Intel, EITG will add more goodies for v7. However, we all know resources must be carefully utilized. Xpressionist, ultimately, needs to be integrated into the host's internal architecture rather than routing it through the plugin API. Perhaps then XP can be given more tools to tap into functions that users never had access before.

As programs age, they either need to evolve or die. Programs must get reinvented in order to stay fresh. I believe EITG is doing this, one system at a time. There have been multiple advancements in the program...but we all know EITG is a small company. At some point, it falls back on them to take the steps necessary to stay competitive, however, as I've mentioned before...we the users have a responsibility as well. Continue to foster communication with the company. Write them and tell them what you want. It may seem to fall on deaf ears at times, but that's not always true. I can attest to that. As our community grows stronger, EITG grows stronger. This gives them more opportunity to implement new tools and we both benefit.

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 09:57 AM
Thanks Brian. I think I really understand now especially when you related it to MEL. Now I see that MEL is an interface within itself, and not just a hole to look into Maya's guts.
I understand now, why doesn't exist in EIAS and that though Expressionist has greatly intensified EI's capablity, there's still more it can do.

I have often poked the sore issues in EIAS's code in regards to rigging, Z depth bones, but at the same time, I know they have to be very frugal with programming power.

All the programmers and writers are in my opinion are very talented for always coming up with solutions for keep pace with it's users needs. I do my best to cheer them on as well as blow the whistle things that don't jive. I pretty much found a voice as a beta tester. It keeps me update as well and I try to share my finding to keep other abreast.

One day, I envision an EI where all the 3rd Party developers goal is to buy into EI so their plug can be directly intergrated.

Then all of them will contribute to rewriting the old code and bringing everything up to day so dynamics and more effects are psuedo- Real Time :)

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 09:59 AM
On a technical note, when the end points are on the revolve axis, is the object closed?

I'm attempting my first SSS render and so far, nothing.

Igors
03-01-2006, 10:24 AM
Gentlemen, we want to ask you about more order for the discussion. Now this thread runs far away from MrRevolver. We see a lot of themes in full disorder (typical situation if Alonzo becomes active ;) ).

The limitations of EI plug-ins/shaders API, opening EI for development, rebirth Texturizer and UV's generation etc. - all these are interesting themes, we also have what to say and would be happy to support discussions, but.. in normal order, with a separate thread for each.

Here (in this thread) can we back to profile edit problem? Today we post a simple free plug-in as an alternate way/solution. Soon.

halfworld
03-01-2006, 10:43 AM
I agree!
I switched off for a couple of pages there ;)

With regards to profile editing:

1. Encage is the perfect solution for the smoothing of points, I am having some great fun with this at the moment, i'll post the results later today. It isn't ideal, but it does look great.
2. For the editing of the profile I would really like to see a 'zoom' feature for the profile editor (or a choice of 100% zoom or 200% zoom).
3. If that isn't possible, snapping would be nice :) If zooming is possible, snapping would still be nice.

I think that is enough for now, lets try to keep the posts short and simple! ;)
Ian

Igors
03-01-2006, 11:48 AM
Ok, here is the promised free plug-in. The attached archive contains Path2Line versions for Mac and PC and a draft doc. A role/usability of this utility isn't clear yet. At least it allows to draw a line in all EI windows in 3D space (not a flat cross-section only).

Please take your time for Path2Line and then (with new experience) let's back to internal graph's problems ;)

3DArtZ
03-01-2006, 12:35 PM
I'm so bummed that my schedule hasn't allowed me time to dive into this yet.

Everything you guys are posting looks real good.
Keep it going!
Alonzo, great samples that you have posted!

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com)

Igors
03-01-2006, 01:37 PM
On a technical note, when the end points are on the revolve axis, is the object closed?

I'm attempting my first SSS render and so far, nothing.
No and (maybe) it should be changed. Now the plug-in automatically shifts points are located nearby revolve axis (the tolerance is 5.0e-5). It provides a monotonous topology (quads only). Other possible solution is to weld these vertices. It guarantees "no any holes" but requires quadrangles/triangles mix.

About MrRevolver + Encage. Yes, we also have found this combo is often much more effective than increasing of revolve resolution. But from our side it would be not correct to use this thread for promo of another product :)

halfworld
03-01-2006, 03:36 PM
Here are a couple of images....

A picture frame, aww.
And a light post, made with Revolver and abused by the Catmul-Clark SDS algorithms :)

Ian

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 04:21 PM
Yes.. sorry about the run away thread. However, when certain questions like that become public, I feel its my obligation to at least address them for the sake of the one asking and for the sake of everyone reading. Unanswered questions shed unnecessary doubt about the host program. Although I am not an offical EITG reprsentative, I am an ambassador of sorts. I never want to leave the impression that EITG doesn't give a flip about the customer because that isn't true. Alonzo's questions point to the very foundational issues of why are we making this plugin in the first place. I will work to curtail unnecessary banter and limit the educational factor. :thumbsup:

Igors
03-01-2006, 05:22 PM
Hi, Brian
Yes.. sorry about the run away thread. However, when certain questions like that become public, I feel its my obligation to at least address them for the sake of the one asking and for the sake of everyone reading. Unanswered questions shed unnecessary doubt about the host program. Although I am not an offical EITG reprsentative, I am an ambassador of sorts. I never want to leave the impression that EITG doesn't give a flip about the customer because that isn't true. Alonzo's questions point to the very foundational issues of why are we making this plugin in the first place. I will work to curtail unnecessary banter and limit the educational factor. :thumbsup:
We 100% agree: Alonzo touches a series of interesting and important things. And it's absolute normal if a discussion involves other things (it only means that discussion is actual, not abstract).

But, in our opinion, it's not a good idea to join all in a one single thread - it only makes this thread much harder to read/understand. We personally are very confused with what we should answer - only a few people have "multi-processor" brain ;)

So, Alonzo, how about: "new serious theme == new thread" ? :cool:

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 05:23 PM
Gentlemen, we want to ask you about more order for the discussion. Now this thread runs far away from MrRevolver. We see a lot of themes in full disorder (typical situation if Alonzo becomes active ;) ).

The limitations of EI plug-ins/shaders API, opening EI for development, rebirth Texturizer and UV's generation etc. - all these are interesting themes, we also have what to say and would be happy to support discussions, but.. in normal order, with a separate thread for each.

Here (in this thread) can we back to profile edit problem? Today we post a simple free plug-in as an alternate way/solution. Soon.

Hahah. Igors this is not the first time you have politely told me to "shut up" LOL. Igors tell me I talk too much in my own post in postforum haha. Don't worry about it, I know Igors for a very long time. haha. It could be worst. haha But always with good intent.
Yes, I am the culprit. I will try to stay only on topic, and not dreams about EIAS financial structure. API, and stuff. This is only beta testing for one plugin. I should focus on it and making my posts legible for testing.

It's important to me so thanks Brian but for the purpose of Igors checking info for bugs and feature, I will save the Igors the time of sifting through long posts that they can't immediately put to use. The topics are relevant, but not the task at hand.
Haha. My apologies I get carried away.

And if I need to liason my concerns to other factions of EI, I will do so while Igors are busy programming. :p

(Texturizer...that had to be the last straw) LOL.

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 05:33 PM
2. For the editing of the profile I would really like to see a 'zoom' feature for the profile editor (or a choice of 100% zoom or 200% zoom).

Ian

It really needs a zoom for when more room is needed to draw a profile past the extents of the box. A zoom and/or pan.

halfworld
03-01-2006, 05:42 PM
This is very cool

Attached is my first concept revolve ;)

This was really easy to set up and is a great alternative to having bezier inside the MrRevolve interface.

I'll come up with something more constructive tonight,
Ian

Igors
03-01-2006, 05:43 PM
Hahah. Igors this is not the first time you have politely to told me to "shut up" LOL. Igors tell me I talk too much in my own post in postforum haha. Don't worry about it, I know Igors for a very long time. haha. It could be worst. haha
Yes, I am the culprit. I will try to stay only on topic, and not dreams about EIAS financial structure. API, and stuff. It's important to me so thanks Brian but for the purpose of Igors checking info for bugs and feature. I will save him the time of sifting through long posts.
Haha. My apologies. I get carried away.

(Texturizer...that had to be the last straw) LOL.

Alonzo, we never said you "shut up", but we said (and we repeat again) that your fountain of ideas should be organized well, otherwise, in our opinion, it cannot be effective

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 06:01 PM
Ok...Path2Line does fill a need. This is a step forward. Curves can now be generated through animation paths in EI. Its a little clunky compared to a direct implementation by the host program for curve generation, but it does allow the user to:

1. Use the EIAS windows as drawing area.
2. Users can then snap and resize the grid within EIAS.
3. Use beziers for curve reshaping.

Some immediate limitations include:

1. Plugin refresh. Alterations to the motion path requires Path2Line to be updated in order to update revolver.

2. No ability to form closed line cross sections.

3. A little counter intutitive as far as a drawing mechanism. Advancing the timeline in order to draw takes some getting use to.


However, I think it shows promise and can certainly be utilized. If EITG doesn't wish to include modeling tools into Animator, I would simply suggest that they provide a method to generate splines. Splines could then be tapped by a number of plugins by both Konkeptoine and Northernlights.

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 06:07 PM
No and (maybe) it should be changed. Now the plug-in automatically shifts points are located nearby revolve axis (the tolerance is 5.0e-5).

I had a problem with points that were not this close to the revolve axis automatically shifting while dragging.



It provides a monotonous topology (quads only). Other possible solution is to weld these vertices. It guarantees "no any holes" but requires quadrangles/triangles mix.

I hope quads stay and only triangles at the end point when necessary to close for volumetric renders.



About MrRevolver + Encage. Yes, we also have found this combo is often much more effective than increasing of revolve resolution. But from our side it would be not correct to use this thread for promo of another product

Yes, leave that to Mr. Revolver.

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 07:49 PM
No and (maybe) it should be changed. Now the plug-in automatically shifts points are located nearby revolve axis (the tolerance is 5.0e-5). It provides a monotonous topology (quads only). Other possible solution is to weld these vertices. It guarantees "no any holes" but requires quadrangles/triangles mix.

About MrRevolver + Encage. Yes, we also have found this combo is often much more effective than increasing of revolve resolution. But from our side it would be not correct to use this thread for promo of another product :)


Perhaps there can be a method in which the plugin can weld and triangulate a model into a solid closed object, but then it sacrifices its animation capabilities. It could be a user selection button. I think making geometry that is compatible with SSS is important.

Make Weld

AVTPro
03-01-2006, 08:13 PM
What we absolutely need is a direct .eps import in EIAS. I am asking it for a long time but things don't seem to move. The new Igors purpose to be able to transform EIAS paths in curves readable by Revolver isn't the best solution (but is it a solution that they can implement for their new plug-in, so I understand). As .eps import function was part of the Modeler, why couldn't they add a part of the existing code to EIAS or combined it with Transporter? Open Transporter, select an .eps file, save as .fact and do what you want in EIAS. I think I'm dreaming cause EIAS world is a bit slow to evoluate. Hopefully russians are standing at the corner to make things changing.


This is what I mentioned in my first post in this forum, and in it, I mentioned that I was hard on betas, (forwarned is foretold). So at the risk of being redundant, I have to bring this up again as well because without EPS imports, it just doesn't make sense. If a 3D modeler is needed then the plug doesn't succeed as an alternative for a modeler with the use of a 2D draw program. I understand this is Beta, so this can still be yet to come.

Anyone interested in buying Revolver is going to do as I did at the top of my post, assume it imports EPS files directly from Illustrator. Anyone, everyone, and anybody, especially those who have previous experience with INVIGORATOR. It imports EPS and Revolver would be considered a competitive counterpart to this plug.

If Revolver doesn't have EPS imports, then it's going to severly dampen it's gamut among 2D designers, it's appeal and this non-functionality should be reflected in it's cost.

Sorry if this is stark, blunt or exacting, I'm just stating the obvious and being upfront. As much as I love Encage, It was only a patch to a problem that currently exists with Mr. Revolver. All the recent path drawing post (10?) are merely workarounds to a clear expectation, need and omission. Editable Bezier profile curves with corner points to break tangencies whether EIAS has the fundamental architecture or not should be a availabe in the plug. Comparitively, it's common in Inivigorator.

(ducking)

Vizfizz
03-01-2006, 08:55 PM
Ok. Lets put the EPS request on hold for a while. The Igors are firm in their decision not to include it. (at least for now) I side with you Alonzo because I think EPS import is important, particularly for 2D designers...but we are not creating Invigorator 2.0. Perhaps Blair can include eps import in Transporter or EITG can choose to make it happen. But for now, lets respect the programmers' decision and perhaps they can provide us with something better. We're only in Beta 2.

Until then lets remember that this plugin is only a means to generate geometry quickly and easily within Animator without needing to jump into another package.

Our current modeling options are such:

1. Revolver's internal cross section editor.
- Still basic.
- Lacks drawing tools.
- No closed cross sections.
- Grid still requires additional tools.
- No multiple lines.

2. Child objects generated from outside modeling sources.
- Somewhat self defeating in that you need a modeler to model something. However, you forget about the animation capabilities within the plugin which makes this option valuable.

- Supports more complex shapes.
- Supports closed entities.

3. Child objects from Path2Line.
- Addresses some of the limitations from the internal cross section editor.
- Works with the EIAS grid and snapping capabilities.
- Permits limited bezier functionality.
- Can potentially be used by other plugins.


Not a bad start. Matt Hoffman has been reading this thread. So as we discover things, ideas may forming in Matt's head as well.

Igors
03-02-2006, 06:42 AM
1. Revolver's internal cross section editor.
- Still basic.
- Lacks drawing tools.
- No closed cross sections.
- Grid still requires additional tools.
- No multiple lines.

Let us explain our opinion. We've attached the screenshot of line editor (max) that we use often and we like very much. Not all options are shown. Things like zoom, snap etc. are supported from menus. We are fully sure this editor is not redundant and all its options are very usable. Moreover, we would like to see some new options.

So, what to do? Should we've all this inside MrRevolver? Obvious absurd :) Yes-yes, we know: Igors overestimate the problem, of course, such monster is unneeded, but it would be nice to have a lite mini-editor etc. Unfortunately, we know very well what would happen on this way. Be sure: each heavy monster was initially designed as a "lite" and "mini" thing, just "on road" it has got more and more burdens.

Each development requires to be realistic and it's really hard. It's not a pleasure to understand that EI has not any line editor, has not eps import and has not many things that other apps have. "Give me eps import first and then (maybe) I see what is your revolving". That's a classic example of a not-realistic and not-constructive approach that can have only one result: no eps, no plugs, no developers.

A normal plug-in should process anything passed to its input and it's a problem of user (not of plug-in) where the source data created/imported from. Same as a shader is responsible for shading and should not provide a geometry to shade.

MrRevolver input: lines can be delivered by standard import, drawn inside the plug-in, achieved with Pat2Line. Not too bad imho! All ways have their limitations/defects? Absolute yes! But all ways are usable? Yes too

Let us say a strange (in first view) thing: a stupid product has more chances to be sold well than a clever one. True-true. "Ahhaa, people say that Mrs graph is primitive.. Why I need a primitive tool?". But Invigorator is not primitive (cause it has no any profile editor) . Conclusion: need to buy Invigorator instead of primitive Mrs. Be sure, such logic works very often. A stupid product has a great advantage: it produces no questions and problems. So, let's kill graph in MrRevolver beta 3 ?

Summary: gentlemen, we ask you to be realistic and constructive. The time you and we spent for discussion of side things sorta eps/line edit is quite enough to create another one "Mr", sure! New revolve features? Lofting? Other model tool(s)? That's not a fantasy, need only rid of an illusion "the product should do all I want (from import up to make a coffee :) )"

Igors
03-02-2006, 08:56 AM
Attached is my first concept revolve ;)

Oh, we planned very similar example as a tutorial :) Ok, no probs, we'll prepare a spring instead

NOTE: the "AdvancedExamples" prjs contain a lot of keyframes. Our next experiments showed: often it's much more simpler/effectiver to use EI curve editor.

AVTPro
03-02-2006, 11:36 AM
I agree with every thing you said Igors. The longer you carry a program the heavier it gets This was my main modeler ten years ago. Very primitive but only 724K. Swivel 2.0
One took one click to draw the sphere in the cross section and only took one side (revolve )view to do this.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/swivelmodeler.jpg

Photoshop 3.0 path tool only use one or two modifier keys.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/onetool.jpg

halfworld
03-02-2006, 02:15 PM
It's about time for a new thread :)

Beta 3 is nearly here so lets use this forum to discuss and give feedback on the third beta /request additional features, so while I'm here:

I would like to request the ability to cap partial revolves (see attached pictures).
This sounds simple enough, but what if the source line is non planar? It suddenly becomes horribly complex... So maybe this should only be available when using the internal graph?

Thoughts/ Solutions are welcome on that.....
Ian

Vizfizz
03-02-2006, 04:22 PM
Igors,

I don't believe the general public is asking for you to create a "monster" plugin. We know that the more you pack into the plugin, the more time and energy you put into it. Since this is a public discussion...lets try to finalize a list of features that we wish to shoot for and then reach that goal. I think having modeling capabilities within Animator is a considerably "passionate" and "touchy" topic for a lot of people. Several consider it the very thing that is holding EIAS back. Feature requests start adding up, because everyone wants a "cool" tool to work with. I plan to contact EITG and ask Matt to help resolve some of these problems. Hopefully it will be possible for them to put a basic curve generator into EIAS to help solve some of our problems.

Oh, you mentioned "So, let's kill graph in MrRevolver beta 3".... ummmm no. Bad idea.

Now lets try to finalize features for Mr. Revolver Beta 3.

Current Features:

Inputs: Graph editor and Child objects: Done
Variable resolutions for Animator and Camera: Done
Partial Revolve Angle in V direction: Done
Offset from Plugin Location: Done
Horizontal and Vertical Scale (graph scale): Done
Cross Section I/O: Done
Smoothing and Invert Normals: Done
Traveling feature: Done (Is there any expectation to forward this capability into Camera?)
Path2Line for Child objects: Done

New Features:

Graph Snap
Adjustable Graph Resolution
Graph Zoom and Pan
Closed cross sections within the graph editor
Capping functions for Partial revolves in the V direction
Partial revolves in the U direction (Along the cross section line) - Animatable (I think this is very important for modeling too. It would allow the user to break a model up into parts)
Welding function to close final revolved object for SSS compatibility.
Variable revolve axis (X, Y, or Z)
A line segment drawing tool in the graph rather than placing points along the existing line.

Any other features? Additions, subtractions?

Thoughts Igors?

Vizfizz
03-02-2006, 04:33 PM
I'd really like to keep everything in a single thread for the sake of continuity. I don't want potential readers or EITG to have to jump from thread to thread. This thread will be absorbed into the original Mr. Revolver thread.

Igors
03-02-2006, 04:33 PM
It's about time for a new thread :)

Beta 3 is nearly here so lets use this forum to discuss and give feedback on the third beta /request additional features, so while I'm here:

I would like to request the ability to cap partial revolves (see attached pictures).
This sounds simple enough, but what if the source line is non planar? It suddenly becomes horribly complex... So maybe this should only be available when using the internal graph?

Thoughts/ Solutions are welcome on that.....
Ian

Hi, Ian

We think your request makes a sense. But we don't understand images you posted :)
We see caps generation as:

for each processed line the plug-in closes the controur (by adding an extra segment if the line is opened) and then polygonizes the closed line. Self-intersections and other troubles are possible if the contour is non-planar or if the added extra segment crosses source line etc. - nothing to do, each tool has its limitations. Shading: "smooth along" is used for caps as well

halfworld
03-02-2006, 04:51 PM
Hi Igors,

The images just showed what partial revolve capping was...

I can understand the limits completely, you can't change the laws of mathematics ;)
Mr. Extrude anyone? Just kidding,
Ian

Igors
03-02-2006, 05:15 PM
Hi, Brian


I don't believe the general public is asking for you to create a "monster" plugin. We know that the more you pack into the plugin, the more time and energy you put into it. Since this is a public discussion...lets try to finalize a list of features that we wish to shoot for and then reach that goal.
Fully agree and promise maximal support from our side.

Traveling feature: Done (Is there any expectation to forward this capability into Camera?)
Sorry, but no - we see no ability to force it to work in Camera.

Capping functions for Partial revolves in the V direction
Partial revolves in the U direction (Along the cross section line) - Animatable (I think this is very important for modeling too. It would allow the user to break a model up into parts)
Welding function to close final revolved object for SSS compatibility.
We would accept anything rational for "revolve itself". Please explain more with caps - now we don't understand what to do. The schemes/images would be wanted

Variable revolve axis (X, Y, or Z)
But it's enough to rotate the plug-in group, no?


Graph Snap
Adjustable Graph Resolution
Graph Zoom and Pan
Closed cross sections within the graph editor
...
A line segment drawing tool in the graph rather than placing points along the existing line.


Brian, is it a FINAL list of graph editor new features? If so, our answer is YES. But if it's only a first of 5-10 such lists, then sorry, but NO, we are too young to die ;)

AVTPro
03-02-2006, 08:51 PM
Igors,

I think having modeling capabilities within Animator is a considerably "passionate" and "touchy" topic for a lot of people. Several consider it the very thing that is holding EIAS back. Feature requests start adding up, because everyone wants a "cool" tool to work with.





I have to say Brian, you make a very good forum leader. You clearly understand the concerns without bias and very objective.

Any efforts toward a modeler in EI is going to be passionate and touchy subject.

I have to also say, Mr.Revolver is a very good Plugin and product that does exactly what I need.

As you can see from my table lamp, the curves are perfect with Encage. At this point, for me, bezier curves are really a non-issue. My concerns were for people expecting the same results without Encage. Personally, since I have Encage, if the writing beziers inside the graph editor rose the price, I could do without it.

This is probably the best curves smoothness I have ever had in EI, because I can create them at a low resolution and render they much higher.

Thus far, Mr. Revolver as model lathe plugin is will work for me and is a God-Send for my Pheonix SpaceShip. It generates very smooth models in no time.

I have much more beta testing to do, discovering what features in Revolver that I don't know how to use yet.

Igors, to say Mr. Revolver is not too bad, is an understatement. It's a very good solution that goes a very long way to fill a direct modeling gap in EIAS.

Thanks. Please keep up the good work.

Vizfizz
03-03-2006, 05:37 AM
Fully agree and promise maximal support from our side.



Excellent to hear. :)



We would accept anything rational for "revolve itself". Please explain more with caps - now we don't understand what to do. The schemes/images would be wanted



Working on those now.




Brian, is it a FINAL list of graph editor new features? If so, our answer is YES. But if it's only a first of 5-10 such lists, then sorry, but NO, we are too young to die ;)

Don't worry, I don't think people are requiring you to rewrite Modeler. ;)

Vizfizz
03-03-2006, 06:15 AM
Hey Igors,

Ok.. let's examine the list of feature requests and try to determine why they are needed and if they are possible.

Requested Graph Tools:
-Graph Snap (Really necessary for accurate drawing)
-Adjustable Graph Resolution (Finer graph resolution for drawing more detailed x-sections)
-Graph Zoom and Pan (Important for finer graph resolutions)
x Variable or user defined axis not required. Drop this request.


Requested Drawing Tools:
- A traditional line segment drawing tool rather than command clicking on an existing line. (more natural drawing process)
- The ability to draw closed cross sections. (Necessary for capping)
- Clear or Reset profile button for the graph editor. (Simply Convient)


Geometry Generation Tools:
- Closed planar cross sections in the child or graph editor are permitted to generate caps.
- Welding function to fuse a fully revolved model into a single mesh. SSS compatible.


Animation Tools:
- Partial revolve settings along a line segment's U direction. This should be an animation feature. It can also be used to accurately divide a revolved object in specific sections. Massively beneficial feature for both modeling purposes, texturing purposes, and animation effects.

Igors
03-03-2006, 11:06 AM
Hi, Brian

Requested Graph Tools:
-Graph Snap (Really necessary for accurate drawing)
..
-Graph Zoom and Pan (Important for finer graph resolutions)Clear, accepted


-Adjustable Graph Resolution (Finer graph resolution for drawing more detailed x-sections)
Not clear, please explain details


- A traditional line segment drawing tool rather than command clicking on an existing line. (more natural drawing process))Hmmm.. yes, more natural, but please remember - graph points are transformed into vertices, i.e. it's a discrete set. A smooth curve line itself corresponds to nothing yet - need extra options to define its tesselation etc. Thus we think a traditional drawing would bring more problems but less benefits.


- The ability to draw closed cross sections. (Necessary for capping)
- Clear or Reset profile button for the graph editor. (Simply Convient)
That is already achievable: press 'H' to set a same position for all selected points. Press 'A' (select all) and then Backspace (delete selection). Ok, in any case the graph toolbar is planned for beta 3 and these options will be there as buttons too.

Geometry Generation Tools:
- Closed planar cross sections in the child or graph editor are permitted to generate caps.
- Welding function to fuse a fully revolved model into a single mesh. SSS compatible.Clear, accepted


Animation Tools:
- Partial revolve settings along a line segment's U direction. This should be an animation feature. It can also be used to accurately divide a revolved object in specific sections. Massively beneficial feature for both modeling purposes, texturing purposes, and animation effects.Clear overview, let's specify details:

1. Now "U" is "revolve angle", and "V' is a length along path. In your images it's vice versa. Let's swap U-V? (it's always better to have names/terms are compatible with other apps)

2. You showed that caps are disabled for non-planar contours. We think it's practically simpler to generate caps always if they are required in the plug-in interface, and let user be responsible for all non-planars and/or self intersections

3. A dividing revolved object in a series of sections (together with caps) is an interesting idea. It requires additional parameters, like: Section Angle and Sections Count, isn't it?

Vizfizz
03-03-2006, 04:15 PM
Igors,

Ok.. lets see.

1. Graph resolution: Allow the graph to subdivide. Meaning the smaller the subdivision, the more grid squares we see. Its like the EIAS grid. Defines how many granger units to be in size. It would allow the user more grid squares to draw with.

2. Line segment tool: If we can get it.. that would be great. I'm mainly asking for it out of convience to the artist. Like I said, more natural for drawing. I believe its the same thing you're already doing, but instead of adding points to an exisiting line by command clicking, the artist just simply draws the cross section.

3. Capping. If you can get non planar capping, great. Works for me.

4. U & V partial revolves. Ok, I'm used to dealing with Maya. Any NURBS curve that is drawn possesses its own U direction. When Maya revolves a curve you can create a partial revolve. This will generate a Subcurve node which possesses two values. Min and Max. This allows the artist to specificy where along the U direction of the curve to actually generate geometry. Min and Max range from 0 to 1. Need more explaination? I could screen capture a movie or more stills to illustrate the process.

Igors
03-03-2006, 07:39 PM
Hi, Brian

1. Graph resolution: Allow the graph to subdivide. Meaning the smaller the subdivision, the more grid squares we see. Its like the EIAS grid. Defines how many granger units to be in size. It would allow the user more grid squares to draw with.
Clear now! Accepted


3. Capping. If you can get non planar capping, great. Works for me.

4. U & V partial revolves. Ok, I'm used to dealing with Maya. Any NURBS curve that is drawn possesses its own U direction. When Maya revolves a curve you can create a partial revolve. This will generate a Subcurve node which possesses two values. Min and Max. This allows the artist to specificy where along the U direction of the curve to actually generate geometry. Min and Max range from 0 to 1. Need more explaination? I could screen capture a movie or more stills to illustrate the process.
Also clear and accepted


2. Line segment tool: If we can get it.. that would be great. I'm mainly asking for it out of convience to the artist. Like I said, more natural for drawing. I believe its the same thing you're already doing, but instead of adding points to an exisiting line by command clicking, the artist just simply draws the cross section.
Hmm... how? All is simple and clear if we draw "raster" lines, but it becomes very blurred/unclear for a poly-line with discrete set of points. Now it works as: "mouse down" is detected, then:

- check if a graph point is picked (delete or drag it if so)
- check if a hit is near to an existed line segment (and insert a new point if so - we know destination segment, so we know where to insert)
- drag selection rectangle otherwise

Your scenario/algorithm? (note: algorithm is not a programming yet, so imho our question is correct :) )

halfworld
03-04-2006, 08:38 AM
:)
I don't really want to interrupt, everything seems to be going really well at the moment, just waiting on the next beta.

Brian, you've been doing an ace job of translating our unreasonable feature demmands into workable additions to the plug :) Good man!

Igors... you're actually doing it! :buttrock:
Ian!!

Vizfizz
03-04-2006, 09:25 AM
Hmm... how? All is simple and clear if we draw "raster" lines, but it becomes very blurred/unclear for a poly-line with discrete set of points. Now it works as: "mouse down" is detected, then:

- check if a graph point is picked (delete or drag it if so)
- check if a hit is near to an existed line segment (and insert a new point if so - we know destination segment, so we know where to insert)
- drag selection rectangle otherwise

Your scenario/algorithm? (note: algorithm is not a programming yet, so imho our question is correct :) )

Hmmm.. this seems to be a language barrier thing again. Let's see.. how to explain this. I'm not asking you to exchange "raster" lines for "poly-lines" as a source. What I am asking for is the method in which points and line segments are drawn on the graph editor to change. Currently we command click on a single line segment. This adds a point. Need more points? Command click again. Once you have a point, you then drag it into position. To me, this is counter intuitive and isn't like any other piece of drawing/cad/3D software out there. Its ok to use that method to add points later if necessary, but the typical method of drawing a line segment in nearly every 2d and 3d software package I've worked with is by clicking one point after the next in a linear progression. Is that more clear?

And oh.. by the way.. if you were to sneak in lofting into this plug via child objects and path2line... no one would complain. Right guys? :bounce:

AVTPro
03-04-2006, 10:11 AM
Hmmm.. this seems to be a language barrier thing again. Let's see.. how to explain this. I'm not asking you to exchange "raster" lines for "poly-lines" as a source. What I am asking for is the method in which points and line segments are drawn on the graph editor to change. Currently we command click on a single line segment. This adds a point. Need more points? Command click again. Once you have a point, you then drag it into position. To me, this is counter intuitive and isn't like any other piece of drawing/cad/3D software out there. Its ok to use that method to add points later if necessary, but the typical method of drawing a line segment in nearly every 2d and 3d software package I've worked with is by clicking one point after the next in a linear progression. Is that more clear?

And oh.. by the way.. if you were to sneak in lofting into this plug via child objects and path2line... no one would complain. Right guys? :bounce:



Raster would be a lot of problems for artist who draw the lines. To make a nice line with raster would be very difficult by hand in the computer. Artist would need a stylist pen and tablet for control. Users without this extra equipment would have to use a mouse. A mouse is a poor line drawing tool. With only a mouse, a curve can be perfect with beziers by clicking and adjusting tangency handles for a smooth resolution independent curve.

The straight vector line that Revoler has is nice, but would be impossible to do smooth lines without Encage. Again, the SDS smooths the rough points. Maybe Revolver can have a menu to switch line like EIAS animation curves, flat, hermite, bezier or fcurve algorithmns? Then artist can choose the interpolation method.

I like Encage but there's lots to consider when using it for smoothing, especially when it comes to textures. Subviding a surface can cause wrinkles in UV textures.
With a bezier line, maybe there is still problems defining the resolution, or number of polygons but at least, once the polygon resolution have be created, the object may not need to be subdived again.

Considering EIAS doesn't display bezier curves geometry, I can see how this is a big problem to program.

Right now, I like be able to create smooth curves with Encage, but bezier are more modern and standard way to work.

Maybe, you just need to cut and paste the resolution controls from Encage into Mr. Revolver? :)

halfworld
03-04-2006, 10:13 AM
And oh.. by the way.. if you were to sneak in lofting into this plug via child objects and path2line... no one would complain. Right guys? :bounce:

Right.
:drool:
That would really be great! But lets leave that for later...

No harm in dreaming though ;)

Igors
03-04-2006, 12:28 PM
... but the typical method of drawing a line segment in nearly every 2d and 3d software package I've worked with is by clicking one point after the next in a linear progression. Is that more clear?
Sorry, Brian, but not, still not clear. Add points to the line end? But what to do for insert a new point between 2 existed? Or to add a new one to the line start? Need to "switch draw mode" etc. Looks long and not elegant

We propose to "replace" this feature with 2 others:

- multiply undo for graph drawing
- eliminate the points count limitation (50 now)

That's a good exchange, agree :D

And oh.. by the way.. if you were to sneak in lofting into this plug via child objects and path2line... no one would complain. Right guys? :bounce:
Oh, no, there is a lot of work with new features. We'll start tomorrow or day after and need approximately 8-10 days (interface always eats a lot of time)

Vizfizz
03-04-2006, 06:14 PM
Sorry, Brian, but not, still not clear. Add points to the line end? But what to do for insert a new point between 2 existed? Or to add a new one to the line start? Need to "switch draw mode" etc. Looks long and not elegant

We propose to "replace" this feature with 2 others:

- multiply undo for graph drawing
- eliminate the points count limitation (50 now)

That's a good exchange, agree :D


Ok... I'll give. Your proposal sounds good. I guess what I was trying to describe was the manner in which photoshop or illustrator draw lines with their pen tools. Its one consecutive click after another rather than inserting between points and moving. But I understand now that your method combines both the drawing function and the point selection function in a single tool. My way would require a drawing tool and a selection tool. I guess I'm just a creature of habit. What do you think guys?


Oh, no, there is a lot of work with new features. We'll start tomorrow or day after and need approximately 8-10 days (interface always eats a lot of time)

Ok... I was just dreaming. :) We'll wait for v2.

Vizfizz
03-04-2006, 06:26 PM
I sent out an email to Matt Hoffman that read:

"...I realize that EITG isn't going to disclose whether or not EIAS will eventually possess its own internal modeling tools or if it will continue to rely on 3rd party programs. However, there is one thing in particular that could really help out the 3rd party plugin effort. Is there any way that Animator could possess the ability to draw 2D bezier or bspline open and closed line entities? Or even permit Animator to import .eps files? This would go a long way with plugins like Bebel, Revolver, Cable Craft, Pathfinder, etc... It could open up a huge number of plugin options for geometry generation and CV level animation. Blair and the Igors have devised methods to extract line entities from the animated path of a locator, but this is so unintuitive for the user. Advancing the timeline line in order to place a point on a curve is backwards from a modeling perspective. By simply adding 2D curve generation to animator, you can bet that it would be taken advantage of".

Matt's Response was:

"Its certainly is possible, technically. I think realistically, we are going to be heavily involved in the Mactel port for a while and can not consider this feature at this time."

To which I responded:

"That's kind of what I figured and that's ok. If its not possible to add it to the 6.5r3 release, then please consider it for the v7 release and the Mactel port. Thank you."

Personally, I think this is a good sign. Its obvious that the Mactel port must take priority. However, Matt doesn't sound opposed to the idea and this is good. I will continue to remind him over the months. ;) So until then, looks like we're heading down the right road with our efforts.

halfworld
03-04-2006, 06:27 PM
My way would require a drawing tool and a selection tool. I guess I'm just a creature of habit. What do you think guys? .

I've been thinking for a few posts now that I'd need to try this new modified version of drawing on the graph to comment on it... It sounds good (and the removal of the 50 point limit is a GREAT help).

I wasn't entirely put out by the current plugin 'front end' but it really does need making more natural, so yes, lets try out the the new Igor-tastic method :)
Ian

MagicEgger
03-12-2006, 03:56 PM
Hi everybody,

I’m working a lot and appeared today to see How EIAS new Forum is going and I’m realllllly surprised with this forum and How users are dealing with developers to make excelent new tools!

Congratssssssss

Tomas Egger

Vizfizz
03-12-2006, 03:58 PM
Well hopefully this week we'll have beta 3 of Revolver... should provide some much needed additions. Stay tuned.

Igors
03-15-2006, 12:32 PM
Hello, gentlemen

MrRevolver beta 3 is here. New features:

1. Sections feature (repeatable revolve)
2. Caps U/V are added
3. Animated RangeU feature
4. Improved graph editor (zoom, pan, grid, multiply undo etc.)

Fixed bugs: error in vertices normals calculation, beta 3 produces "smoother" results if a few revolve steps are specified

Notes for beta-testers:

- sorry, beta2 projects should be re-created, in view of numerous changes we cannot support betas compatibility

- please read (at doc bottom) details how animation channels works

- new samples - only one (attached image). The project is available (without large textures though)

Waiting for cool images/movies from you :)

Vizfizz
03-15-2006, 03:58 PM
Just woke up and saw the great news. I'll send it out today when I get into work.

AVTPro
03-15-2006, 05:14 PM
Awesome. Will be done with a project and back on the scene to put it to use shortly.

Vizfizz
03-15-2006, 06:23 PM
Revolver beta 3 has been seeded to the beta testers. Get to work gentlemen.

Vizfizz
03-16-2006, 06:15 AM
Just a picture of the beta 3 interface for those interested.

Vizfizz
03-18-2006, 07:50 AM
Hey Guys...

Just a couple of things on Beta 3.

First off.. nice job guys.. this is so helpful. This is gonna be a great addition to EIAS.

Revolver + Bebel + Encage = Happiness.

The idea of using Revolver as a mini line/surface editor with its "secret" function (Steps at Zero) is a wonderful idea. Now you can draw a shape in Revolver's graph editor and feed it into other plugins. (Either another Revolver or into Mrs Bebel) Suddenly Bebel and Revolver are properly working together. :thumbsup: It would be nice if Bebel could eventually get its own cross section editor, but this certainly works for now. Great job. However...there's one little thing I don't like about your implimentation about this feature.

Revolver's graph editor is divided into two parts. A light blue and light purple side, with a line drawn down the middle representing the revolve axis. When revolving, this is obviously necessary.. however, I wish to use revolver to generate surfaces to extrude in Mrs. Bebel. Right now, you have to draw on just one side of the graph or the other. If you draw a cross section that breaks the axis, Bebel's extrusions wind up going in two opposite directions. I bring this up because if someone wants to draw a cross section for Bebel to extrude...they're going to want to use the entire drawing area.. not just one side.

If you could include in the "secret" function a Mrs. Bebel compatibility mode button where the axis line in revolver can be ignored...well.. that would be great. Otherwise, you have to move the cross section to one side of the axis or the other in order to obtain an extrude in a single direction and then the object's pivot point is then either left or right of the object. No good.

Next, is it possible that when Revolver is first launched that the graph editor be a true square aspect ratio rather than stretched on the vertical? I always find myself adjusting Revolver's graph editor back into a square aspect ratio in order to draw.

Finally..I'd like the ability to increase the cap's mesh resolution for deformation purposes. The only way this can be done right now is to insert more points along the user defined cross section's curve. This is logical and works well enough. However there is no method to insert these points quickly or evenly without snapping to the grid. (Thanks for the adjustable grid by the way.. very nice) It would be great if there was a way to select two points in the editor and tell Revolver to divide the line between the two points with a user defined number of points. It doesn't need to be fancy..it just makes inserting say 15 or 20 points considerably easier and faster. There.. I promise.. no more requests. (Unless you want to find a way to support holes in surfaces.)

Concerning your email on UV's on caps. Personally, I think you would want them to be built separately don't you? This would allow you the opportunity to place a separate texture on them quickly and easily. What were your ideas?

Igors
03-18-2006, 09:34 AM
Hi, Brian

Let's discuss "Revolver to Bebel" aspects privately :)


Next, is it possible that when Revolver is first launched that the graph editor be a true square aspect ratio rather than stretched on the vertical? I always find myself adjusting Revolver's graph editor back into a square aspect ratio in order to draw.Understand, bit please count: bigger plug-in's window hides EI windows that are necessary to view "Apply" results. And plug-in "remembers" its window size.


Finally..I'd like the ability to increase the cap's mesh resolution for deformation purposes. The only way this can be done right now is to insert more points along the user defined cross section's curve. This is logical and works well enough. However there is no method to insert these points quickly or evenly without snapping to the grid. (Thanks for the adjustable grid by the way.. very nice) It would be great if there was a way to select two points in the editor and tell Revolver to divide the line between the two points with a user defined number of points. It doesn't need to be fancy..it just makes inserting say 15 or 20 points considerably easier and faster.Agreed, points insertion is a rational feature in any case. Accepted. However, it cannot help too much with caps resolution :)

Caps V (top and bottom) are generated as a single additional graph's segment. Making them multi-segmented is not a problem but has no sense IMHO. For animated RangeU a single cap segment is what we need. Without RangeU we've more abilities to draw any segments we want, with same results as CapsV does but with full control.

CapsU - more graph points cannot help to have more resolution of CapsU surfaces interiors, here we need an adaptive triangulation. Sorry, that we cannot implement (inside MrRevolver). Enough complex and, in other hand - not too much usable IMHO. A rational caps deforming, hmm... what is this? :)

There.. I promise.. no more requests. (Unless you want to find a way to support holes in surfaces.)Interesting! But only if it would be easy and intuitive for user. We've no ideas, your solutions/propositions?

Concerning your email on UV's on caps. Personally, I think you would want them to be built separately don't you? This would allow you the opportunity to place a separate texture on them quickly and easily. What were your ideas?
Yes, the caps are areas where UV's are shrinked/distorted too much. It's possible to generate caps' UV's separately. However, it has its negatives: default texture assigning in EI will not work well, user needs to adjust map(s) manually to each UV piece. From other side, caps mapping can be solved in standard way ("negative Z"). Hmm... looks like 50/50 (positives/negatives)

Igors
03-18-2006, 11:25 AM
Let's discuss "Revolver to Bebel" aspects privately
No :) It's just a bug (incorrect vertices normals can be viewed in texture window). Fixing..

halfworld
03-18-2006, 02:33 PM
Hey Igors et al,

I haven't had much time to play with this beta yet, very busy bee at the moment, but I do like what I have seen, the graph is a huge improvement and the "Steps at Zero" function is ingenious :)

It is really coming together, the repeat revolve is very cool, something I do a lot!

I need something explaining though: What is the purpose of the 'join' tool when it does not join points... it simply aligns them vertically and horizontally, I would expect a 'join' tool to combine all the selected points < very useful, but simply putting all the selected points in the same place creates an error! Why do we need an 'Error' button? :)
Or am I missing the something?

Holes in objects, very interesting but I cannot for the life of me work out how this could be implemented... Any examples Brian?
Ian

Igors
03-18-2006, 04:45 PM
Hi, Ian

I haven't had much time to play with this beta yet, very busy bee at the moment100% "beta-tester's classic sentence" (sorry, we can't resist :) ). Oh, yeah, "we need", "we absolute need" etc,. but.. I (personally) is very busy with my prj! Don't be confused, Ian, it's a normal beta-testing that we see recent 10 years (in EI and other hosts as well)

I need something explaining though: What is the purpose of the 'join' tool when it does not join points... it simply aligns them vertically and horizontally, I would expect a 'join' tool to combine all the selected points < very useful, but simply putting all the selected points in the same place creates an error! Why do we need an 'Error' button? :)
Or am I missing the something?No, you've missed nothing, just you and we see things "in their evolution". Without grid (that appears recently) it was hard to set the first and last graph points in same position (for the plug-in it's significant are they coincide or nope). So, "Join" was added. A rational idea: change its name to something like "Close" (and functionality as well)

Vizfizz
03-18-2006, 05:58 PM
Holes in objects, very interesting but I cannot for the life of me work out how this could be implemented... Any examples Brian?
Ian

I'm not thinking about it from a revolve aspect..unless you want to create something like a torus that has an interior wall...Revolving with holes is only really beneficial with partial revolves or items where you wish to see a thickness. I'm more thinking about supporting holes in the cross section editor of Revolver in order to feed Mrs. Bebel. Remember, I'm wanting a more complete mini modeling solution in Animator. My hope is to get a family of related plugins that can handle revolving, extruding, and lofting. The big 3. Holes are best implemented with extruding and lofting. You know.. for creating anything with an interior wall/surface. Although I haven't tried it, Child entities from an outside modeling package would probably meet that need. But I want the ability to do it internally. Invigorator has the ability to generate holes in objects with its extrusions from eps files provided that the eps file was masked within Illustrator a specific way. Therefore object items requiring an interior wall/surface like the letter "Q" could be formed properly.

Right now revolver's cross section editor can draw a "single" line (thats the key issue) with multiple points that can form a surface that can be extruded with Bebel. Ultimately, Bebel should possess this ability on its own, making it the full extruding tool it needs to be rather than being dependant on another plugin series to provide it with cross sections..however, the Igors' solution works for now. If they ever decide to make a Bebel_v3 with a cross section editor like Revolvers, that supports multiple lines, interior surfaces, and then include lofting capabilities between children or multiple instances of Bebel cross sections, they would have a complete mini modeling solution on their hands. We're really close...we just might as well take it to the logical conclusion. A complete Konkeptoine mini modeling solution would include:

Bebel - For extrusions, bevels, and hopefully lofting.
Revolver - For symetrical revolves
Encage - For sub d smoothing
Tailor Tool - For render booleans
Blobmaker - For metaballs

I've asked Matt Hoffman for the ability to draw open and closed 2D curve generation tools in animator for the future. Perhaps one day that will happen and then these tools would have even more source entities to work with, but until then...I can be quite happy with what we're establishing here. We only need basic modeling tools in Animator. I'm quite happy with leaving the complex stuff to Silo or some other program.

Vizfizz
03-18-2006, 06:15 PM
Oh guys... just one more thing.. lol.

Alonzo made mention back in his post about wanting to create spirals for the lamp/lightbulb he was modeling in his example. Normally, you'd do that with a sweep, however, for a symetrical situation like the lightbulb screw I could see that being a possibility with a closed cross section with revolver and allowing the cross section to offset up and along the "Y" axis. Right now your "offset" only moves the entire revolved object along the Y axis. What if there was another cross section offset that could move the cross section up and along the Y axis or out along the X & Z? Would be nice for creating a spiral staircase or something like that with the sections tool.

Vizfizz
03-18-2006, 06:47 PM
Hi, Brian

Let's discuss "Revolver to Bebel" aspects privately :)

Ok.. no problem.

Understand, bit please count: bigger plug-in's window hides EI windows that are necessary to view "Apply" results.

Not if you have a 23" or 30" cinema display. ;)

Agreed, points insertion is a rational feature in any case. Accepted. However, it cannot help too much with caps resolution :)

Great! Point insertion tools for even distribution will be really helpful.

Caps V (top and bottom) are generated as a single additional graph's segment. Making them multi-segmented is not a problem but has no sense IMHO. For animated RangeU a single cap segment is what we need. Without RangeU we've more abilities to draw any segments we want, with same results as CapsV does but with full control.

RangeU is too important for animation purposes to loose.

CapsU - more graph points cannot help to have more resolution of CapsU surfaces interiors, here we need an adaptive triangulation. Sorry, that we cannot implement (inside MrRevolver). Enough complex and, in other hand - not too much usable IMHO. A rational caps deforming, hmm... what is this? :)

Interesting! But only if it would be easy and intuitive for user. We've no ideas, your solutions/propositions?

I was only concerned with deforming revolved objects with caps. Inserting more points will solve the problem for now. Besides, Encage can also lend a hand when needed. Speaking of Encage. I've noticed that when you parent and unparent a revolver object from it, the Mr. Revolver object disappears for good. You can't get it back. Additionally, deformation regions on the child object no longer work. Obviously, you'd deform the Encaged object rather than the child object... but I just wanted to point that out.

Yes, the caps are areas where UV's are shrinked/distorted too much. It's possible to generate caps' UV's separately. However, it has its negatives: default texture assigning in EI will not work well, user needs to adjust map(s) manually to each UV piece. From other side, caps mapping can be solved in standard way ("negative Z"). Hmm... looks like 50/50 (positives/negatives)

Lets ask the potential users... what do you think guys?

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 01:34 AM
Oh guys... just one more thing.. lol.
What if there was another cross section offset that could move the cross section up and along the Y axis or out along the X & Z? Would be nice for creating a spiral staircase or something like that with the sections tool.


I was thinking something simple like a slight shift or offset setting..not exactly sure where. But I think at this point, considering the release date, I would focus on just making sure nothing pops or crashes, instead of feature request. correct?

Vizfizz
03-19-2006, 01:44 AM
Oh and another quick thing. Did we get a "weld" function to ensure geometry created with revolver will work properly with sub surface scattering ?

Vizfizz
03-19-2006, 01:46 AM
I was thinking something simple like a slight shift or offset setting..not exactly sure where. But I think at this point, considering the release date, I would focus on just making sure nothing pops or crashes, instead of feature request. correct?


Yes I suppose... but if I can get the Igors to include just a couple more features, I will. Hey.. somebody has to push. :scream:

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 02:41 AM
Yes I suppose... but if I can get the Igors to include just a couple more features, I will. Hey.. somebody has to push. :scream:

Except for that...That would be important. I got halted there, when I try to do my first volumetric render. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was wrong. If Mr. Revolver can't make a closed object it will never render a SSS.

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 03:39 AM
Opening previous projects in the new beta comes in as cones,
My lamp looks like christmas trees. :)
I understand if there nothing that can be done about this.

The point align tools are really nice.

The magnifying glass is nice, but alt/option zoom should cause the grid to zoom out even on newly open project.

On a pretty simple object encage the normals or shading to reverse.
Reversing the normals of the Encage fixes the problems.


Creating a Mr. Revolve with Angle (from to) and Sections, (2.3 and 2.4) with Encage, causes spires and bad geometry on one of the sections.

Join is interesting and caps UV but I don't know if this actually closes or welds the object. This object is not some so I cant try it here.

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 04:27 AM
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/good.jpg

This is cool can't use encage with it and I'm not sure if all the edges can be rounded.
Below, there artifacts when to make it fully rounded with Encage.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/artifacts.jpg

Igors
03-19-2006, 06:52 AM
Oh guys... just one more thing.. lol.

Alonzo made mention back in his post about wanting to create spirals for the lamp/lightbulb he was modeling in his example. Normally, you'd do that with a sweep, however, for a symetrical situation like the lightbulb screw I could see that being a possibility with a closed cross section with revolver and allowing the cross section to offset up and along the "Y" axis. Right now your "offset" only moves the entire revolved object along the Y axis. What if there was another cross section offset that could move the cross section up and along the Y axis or out along the X & Z? Would be nice for creating a spiral staircase or something like that with the sections tool.

Hi, Brian

Hmmm.. let us answer with image and project :)

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 07:19 AM
Excellent Igors...Only thing is my lamp turned it cones...christmas tress. It doesnt translate into the new release. It's ok. I can redo it.

However, I still want volumetric light if I do :)

Igors
03-19-2006, 07:27 AM
Hi, Brian

Speaking of Encage. I've noticed that when you parent and unparent a revolver object from it, the Mr. Revolver object disappears for good. You can't get it back.Maybe it's the same problem that Manuel reported. Unfortunately we cannot reproduce it. Project please

Additionally, deformation regions on the child object no longer work. Obviously, you'd deform the Encaged object rather than the child object... but I just wanted to point that out. Regions work, just host does not update plug-ins chain when child's deform is changed (see SDS thread started by Giacomo)

Igors
03-19-2006, 07:36 AM
Oh and another quick thing. Did we get a "weld" function to ensure geometry created with revolver will work properly with sub surface scattering ?

With CapsV (or if first and last points are on revolve axis exactly - btw: there is 'C' key to do this) MrRevolver creates solids with no holes, no matter how vertices are shared/unshared according to "Smooth" settings

Igors
03-19-2006, 07:51 AM
This is cool can't use encage with it and I'm not sure if all the edges can be rounded. Below, there artifacts when to make it fully rounded with Encage.



Hi, Alonzo

Unfortunately, yes, caps' topology is absolute NOT suitable for SDS. Sorry, can't help

Vizfizz
03-19-2006, 07:55 AM
Hi, Brian

Hmmm.. let us answer with image and project :)


Sneaky.. very sneaky.

Do you think a cross section offset like I suggested would be valuable at all? Could you do something like a spiral staircase with sections and traveling? Just curious.

Igors
03-19-2006, 07:58 AM
I was thinking something simple like a slight shift or offset setting..not exactly sure where. But I think at this point, considering the release date, I would focus on just making sure nothing pops or crashes, instead of feature request. correct?

Correct. We are adding some new graph tools (hope you'll like them) and fixing bugs. We've no plans to change functionality, IMHO a plug-in should be easy and understandable (even with less features)

Vizfizz
03-19-2006, 08:05 AM
Correct. We are adding some new graph tools (hope you'll like them) and fixing bugs. We've no plans to change functionality, IMHO a plug-in should be easy and understandable (even with less features)

This plugin is about as straight forward as you can get...you did great. I just can't help but ask for features. I'll take as many as I can get. lol.

Igors
03-19-2006, 08:11 AM
Right now your "offset" only moves the entire revolved object along the Y axis. What if there was another cross section offset that could move the cross section up and along the Y axis or out along the X & Z?

Do you think a cross section offset like I suggested would be valuable at all?Don't understand, "offset" parameter moves graph (and child objects as well) in X, Y, Z, right?

Could you do something like a spiral staircase with sections and traveling? Just curious.Well, we think "travelling" allows such spiral (and much more complex things as well). But, of course, "travelling" is hard to use. BTW: user's life can be easier if he has a sample prj of such staircase

Reuben5150
03-19-2006, 12:32 PM
This is cool can't use encage with it and I'm not sure if all the edges can be rounded Below, there artifacts when to make it fully rounded with Encage.



Can you not produce a more rounded object by adding a few more points and using the smooth across + along feature ?



Should not need to rely on Encage too much to produce desired result IMO.



Reuben

Igors
03-19-2006, 02:30 PM
Can you not produce a more rounded object by adding a few more points and using the smooth across + along feature ?Unfortunately - no. Side caps (CapsU) are additional surfaces "ouside" of revolved ones. In other apps a typical this problem solution is using of another plug-in that rounds edges. Note that caps generation are often also another plug-in or external call.
Should not need to rely on Encage too much to produce desired result IMO.To produce desired result - yes, should not, but to learn how plug-ins work together - maybe should :)

Igors
03-19-2006, 02:34 PM
Ok, a staircase (image & project)

Reuben5150
03-19-2006, 02:45 PM
Ok, well its looking like a great tool anyway :thumbsup:


Reuben

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 06:47 PM
Hi, Brian

Maybe it's the same problem that Manuel reported. Unfortunately we cannot reproduce it. Project please

Regions work, just host does not update plug-ins chain when child's deform is changed (see SDS thread started by Giacomo)

I heard this was a scaling problem. I have had it happened too. If you are using a proxy, don't scaled it because Encage will make it snap back to the original size. If you have to scale, export and reimport to freeze the transformation into the geometry at that right size.

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 06:49 PM
Ok, a staircase (image & project)

Igors you are have to write instructions on how to do this quickly so we who are less brilliant as than the programmers can understand :)

I looked at the screw and still can't figure it out.

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 06:59 PM
Unfortunately - no. Side caps (CapsU) are additional surfaces "ouside" of revolved ones. In other apps a typical this problem solution is using of another plug-in that rounds edges. Note that caps generation are often also another plug-in or external call.
To produce desired result - yes, should not, but to learn how plug-ins work together - maybe should :)

Right because there is not another cross section I can't round from the top without using encage. At least from my understanding, I' m not. However, at this point I still need to export the f-curve setup igors is using to see how that can help.

Here, Encage isn't suitable either because the geometry generate spires.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/AVTPro/good2.jpg

Igors
03-19-2006, 10:09 PM
Hi, Alonzo

I heard this was a scaling problem. I have had it happened too. If you are using a proxy, don't scaled it because Encage will make it snap back to the original size. If you have to scale, export and reimport to freeze the transformation into the geometry at that right size.AFAWK EI model plug-in receives its child groups geometry in its final stage ("in Camera space" as programmers say). In other words, plug-in reads its children after all possible transformations are applied to them. EI plug-in is informed about child's linear transforms (scale, rotate etc.), but not about non-linear ones (deforms, morphs etc.). Yes, plug-in can snap child back to its original scale before processing, but absolute most plug-ins (count Encage) don't use this ability. Cause it gives no benefits (if user enlarged a child group, why we need to ignore this?), and doesn't guarantee a restoring of "original" - deforms/morphs/skins are still unkonwn.

"Scaling problem" - yes, it exists with skinned groups. We don't remember details, but only the fact that plug-in receives enlarged input. Generally there is a simple way for such cases: if you noticed an artifact sorta (plug + its children), then do a simple test: check how this children set works with other plug-ins (we use Dicer! and MrBlobby). It's a fast way to see either it's a "personal" plug-in's bug (quite possible) or it's just a common EI plug-ins problem

Vizfizz
03-19-2006, 10:22 PM
Ok, a staircase (image & project)


This file makes my EI crash...everytime.

Igors
03-19-2006, 10:27 PM
Igors you are have to write instructions on how to do this quickly so we who are less brilliant as than the programmers can understand :) Well, Alonzo, if we would write instructions for each sample we post, then our work could not be finished in real time. There is prj with host + plug-in (no other third party tools and nothing unusual in host are involved). It's a honest game ;)

I looked at the screw and still can't figure it out.Don't be confused, any manipulation with time is counter-intuitive for human's brain. Remember a lot of misunderstanding with switching from summer to winter time and vice versa. Try to re-organize your thinking, "Travelling in Time" requires some imagination and creativity ;)

Vizfizz
03-19-2006, 10:43 PM
Hey Guys..

I'm having a problem with clipping maps and Mr. Revolver. I've placed a map around a revolved object to cut some holes in an object. As an active plugin, the holes will not work. If I export the mr. revolver object out as a fact and reimport and apply the same clipping map, the holes work fine.

Can this be fixed?

AVTPro
03-19-2006, 11:28 PM
This file makes my EI crash...everytime.

Mine too. This stairs crashes EIAS immediately. Actually after I look for the Ubershape. If I remove the Uber, then it still crashes when it tries to load.

Igors, just a suggestion. Maybe if I figure them out and can write the tute...but later. :)

Igors
03-19-2006, 11:29 PM
Hi, Brian

This file makes my EI crash...everytime.Opens fine here (on Mac and PC as well). Sorry, don't know how to help

I'm having a problem with clipping maps and Mr. Revolver. I've placed a map around a revolved object to cut some holes in an object. As an active plugin, the holes will not work. If I export the mr. revolver object out as a fact and reimport and apply the same clipping map, the holes work fine. Can this be fixed?Project please

Igors
03-19-2006, 11:42 PM
Mine too. This stairs crashes EIAS immediately. Actually after I look for the Ubershape. If I remove the Uber, then it still crashes when it tries to load.

Igors, just a suggestion. Maybe if I figure them out and can write the tute...but later. :)

Ok, we propose:

a) let's synchronize plug-in versions (we are on b4, you are on b3). We hope we post b4 tomorrow

b) we'll re-save all Ubershapes as FACTs and re-send you prjs

Then let's see

Vizfizz
03-20-2006, 12:17 AM
Sounds good..

In the meanwhile I'll get a project ready for you with the clipping maps. I'm working on one now.

Vizfizz
03-20-2006, 08:19 AM
Well... since the Igors are wanting to release the plugin soon, I thought I better at least produce some kind of image. :)

Everything has been modeled within Animator. Plugins include Mr. Revolver, Mrs. Bebel, and Encage.

Turned out pretty nice.. need to fix the legs a bit. They are too thin. (Fixed...see below) And I could work on the lighting...but hey..not bad for just a couple of hours. Holes are accomplished with geometry clipping maps. Works in a pinch, but would prefer actual holes in geometry.

Shader: Mforge.

Vizfizz
03-20-2006, 09:02 AM
Ok.. I couldn't stand it.. I had to thicken the legs. :)

Igors
03-20-2006, 11:10 AM
Hello

MrRevolver Beta 4:

Miscellaneous bugs are fixed, most important are:
- incorrect vertices normals in "create polygon countour" mode (Brian);
- crashed prj on start (Brian, Alonzo)

New features: new graph tools are added:
- insert points
- mirrors tool
- equidistant tool

We hope those additions are helpful for creating complex contours

halfworld
03-20-2006, 01:28 PM
Very nice Brian,

I managed to have a little play, I was trying to create a spiral stair case, the spiral part is easy :) the staircase bit didn't behave predictably, I look forward to viewing the stairs project file!
Ian

Vizfizz
03-20-2006, 04:14 PM
Hello

MrRevolver Beta 4:

Miscellaneous bugs are fixed, most important are:
- incorrect vertices normals in "create polygon countour" mode (Brian);
- crashed prj on start (Brian, Alonzo)

New features: new graph tools are added:
- insert points
- mirrors tool
- equidistant tool

We hope those additions are helpful for creating complex contours

Received. Will distribute shortly.

halfworld
03-20-2006, 04:37 PM
Holes....

Understandably this doesn't work (the caps go wrong)...

But could this work?
Ian

Igors
03-20-2006, 05:29 PM
Hi, Ian

Holes....

Understandably this doesn't work (the caps go wrong)...

But could this work?First, let's specify what holes we talk about. We guess gentlemen have a plan like: create a contour with holes in Mr and pass it to Mrs to have "solid" holes, right?

About could work or nope. The theory says: there are simple and not simple polygons (see attached scheme). A simple polygon always can be triangulated successfully. Not simple one - theory is in silence.

Vizfizz
03-20-2006, 06:39 PM
Hi, Ian

First, let's specify what holes we talk about. We guess gentlemen have a plan like: create a contour with holes in Mr and pass it to Mrs to have "solid" holes, right?

About could work or nope. The theory says: there are simple and not simple polygons (see attached scheme). A simple polygon always can be triangulated successfully. Not simple one - theory is in silence.

If you could support holes in simple polygons, I would be considerably pleased. I think it would add a considerable amount of value to the plugin, especially when combined with Mrs. Bebel.

Igors
03-20-2006, 08:26 PM
Hi, Brian

If you could support holes in simple polygons, I would be considerably pleased. I think it would add a considerable amount of value to the plugin, especially when combined with Mrs. Bebel.

Let's imagine a several steps on this way (with absolute not too brave assumptions). Ok, we see like:

- contour should be shown closed and with different colors for interios/exterior (most probably polygon's layout also should be shown);

- we want a single hole? Or multiply holes? We guess last, a program does only a single hole looks ridiculous :) So, we need to create multiply contours and define rules for combining them together;

- diagnostics: user should be immediately informed about incorrect contours' combination (for example their intersections if a contour is not intended for such boolean)

There is nothing "super-complex" to implement this. BUT: let's call thing with their names. We want to create interesting contours with multiply holes? Why no? But, of course, it's a standalone task/plug-in/project. Let's not cheat ourselves with it would be implemented as a "little additional option of MrRevolver" - the bounds of concrete plug-in are too narrow to hold this :)

Vizfizz
03-20-2006, 08:40 PM
Hi, Brian



Let's imagine a several steps on this way (with absolute not too brave assumptions). Ok, we see like:

- contour should be shown closed and with different colors for interios/exterior (most probably polygon's layout also should be shown);

- we want a single hole? Or multiply holes? We guess last, a program does only a single hole looks ridiculous :) So, we need to create multiply contours and define rules for combining them together;

- diagnostics: user should be immediately informed about incorrect contours' combination (for example their intersections if a contour is not intended for such boolean)

There is nothing "super-complex" to implement this. BUT: let's call thing with their names. We want to create interesting contours with multiply holes? Why no? But, of course, it's a standalone task/plug-in/project. Let's not cheat ourselves with it would be implemented as a "little additional option of MrRevolver" - the bounds of concrete plug-in are too narrow to hold this :)

I concure. Actually...what I could potentially see is creating an additional plugin that acts as a primary drawing hub of 2D curve entities and surfaces. Its responsibility would be to feed plugins like Bebel and Revolver with cross sections and surfaces for use.

Start by taking all the graph tools found in Revolver and add addtional multiple hole support for simple polygons. Interior lines could be indicated by a different color and perhaps curve direction could determine whether the line is interior or exterior. 2D boolean tools would be really helpful. (Similar to pathfinder in Illustrator). We could also use methods to create arcs, circles, and other predefined shapes.

Maybe....just maybe...we could support actual curves by this point and be able to draw with either Nurbs or beziers?

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 06:13 AM
Still experiencing a minor problem with the Revolver to Bebel pipeline. (Steps to Zero function). It seems that the start and end point of the cross section to be extruded absolutely must be located on the center axis line in Revolver or the extrude will fail in Mrs. Bebel. (see examples) And that doesn't always ensure a good extrude. The 3rd example shows a failed extrude even though the start and end points are on the center axis. The problem I believe lies with the capping system.

Is there no way to improve on creating a surface when Steps to Zero is activated? Since revolver is so sensitive the way points are ordered and capped.. it makes extruding in bebel a guessing game.

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 06:28 AM
Beta 3 actually handled the Revolver to Bebel pipeline better even though you could only draw on one side of the axis or the other.

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 06:33 AM
Another bug...

The plugin will not remember if you've checked Invert Vertices and Normals.

Igors
03-21-2006, 06:56 AM
Hi, BrianI concure. Actually...what I could potentially see is creating an additional plugin that acts as a primary drawing hub of 2D curve entities and surfaces. Its responsibility would be to feed plugins like Bebel and Revolver with cross sections and surfaces for use.

Start by taking all the graph tools found in Revolver and add addtional multiple hole support for simple polygons. Interior lines could be indicated by a different color and perhaps curve direction could determine whether the line is interior or exterior. 2D boolean tools would be really helpful. (Similar to pathfinder in Illustrator). We could also use methods to create arcs, circles, and other predefined shapes.

Maybe....just maybe...we could support actual curves by this point and be able to draw with either Nurbs or beziers?Yes, here (in context of specialized 2D editor) Beziers are absolute in place IMO. Same as booleans etc. But.. looks like we build too far plans :) Let's finish MrRevolver first, then let's see

halfworld
03-21-2006, 11:07 AM
I know this might seem a minor point, but could grid steps go higher then 200? 320 would be ideal. Later today either Brian or myself will post an image of a lighthouse I modelled with Revolver and many of the parts are a little too chunky because grid snapping wasn't tight enough (I adjusted some points without grid steps but that gets messy when modelling to an exact scale).

Also, Revolver (in steps to zero mode) doesn't play nicely with the 'Extruder' plug-in, it renders perfectly, but crashes Animator constantly, this isn't a 'bug' but just a warning to other users :)

Ian

Edit: Have we discussed having underlay images to copy from? Or is this simply impossible with the current API?

Edit 2: Wow, just loaded up Beta 4! The graph is now very well rounded and fully featured, love the equidistant, insert points and mirror tools, so incredibly useful!

Igors
03-21-2006, 01:02 PM
Hi, Brian and Ian

About holes: can promise nothing yet, thinking..
Still experiencing a minor problem with the Revolver to Bebel pipeline.
Projects please (we cannot reproduce your "Bad" and "Bad2")
The plugin will not remember if you've checked Invert Vertices and Normals.Fixed
..but could grid steps go higher then 200?..Just was set to 500:)
Also, Revolver (in steps to zero mode) doesn't play nicely with the 'Extruder' plug-in, it renders perfectly, but crashes Animator constantly, this isn't a 'bug' but just a warning to other users :)Project please (with Extruder plug-in, we've not it)

Finally we see something like normal beta-testing:) Thank you, gentlemen

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 04:45 PM
Here yah go.

I have Bebel v2. Maybe there's yet a newer version?

Also attached is the freebee extruder plugin. Just reparent the "bad" revolver instances to extruder. They produce bad geometry as well..."good" however works.

AVTPro
03-21-2006, 06:39 PM
Ok.. I couldn't stand it.. I had to thicken the legs. :)


It looks really great if you ask me. Brian.

AVTPro
03-21-2006, 06:55 PM
Hello

MrRevolver Beta 4:

Miscellaneous bugs are fixed, most important are:
- incorrect vertices normals in "create polygon countour" mode (Brian);
- crashed prj on start (Brian, Alonzo)


We hope those additions are helpful for creating complex contours


I know there's reverse normal functions but has anything been done to prevent it with encage.

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 06:57 PM
It looks really great if you ask me. Brian.


Thank you Alonzo. :)

AVTPro
03-21-2006, 07:01 PM
This plugin is about as straight forward as you can get...you did great. I just can't help but ask for features. I'll take as many as I can get. lol.

Yes Igors, can you add a feature to give us more time of the Phoenix Project deadline? Since we are asking... :)

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 07:03 PM
Yes Igors, can you add a feature to give us more time of the Phoenix Project deadline? Since we are asking... :)


lol... you're funny.

AVTPro
03-21-2006, 09:49 PM
Here yah go.

I have Bebel v2. Maybe there's yet a newer version?

Also attached is the freebee extruder plugin. Just reparent the "bad" revolver instances to extruder. They produce bad geometry as well..."good" however works.


What are the requirements for the Extruder? Does it generate it's own geometry or do I need an EPS?

AVTPro
03-21-2006, 10:05 PM
I'm only bringing this up again because it's the first thing I do when I open the plug.

When I one the plug the first thing I do is try to zoom out because I want more space to draw. Even when I open the drawing area, I still don't get more space to draw more complex contours. When I try to use the hand to push the space over, it doesn't slide over.

Just wanted to be clear...maybe next time.

AVTPro
03-21-2006, 10:10 PM
Equidistance is really nice.

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 10:24 PM
What are the requirements for the Extruder? Does it generate it's own geometry or do I need an EPS?


Extruder simply "pushes" out geometry from an existing surface based off the surface's normal. Very simple plugin.

Vizfizz
03-21-2006, 10:28 PM
I'm only bringing this up again because it's the first thing I do when I open the plug.

When I one the plug the first thing I do is try to zoom out because I want more space to draw. Even when I open the drawing area, I still don't get more space to draw more complex contours. When I try to use the hand to push the space over, it doesn't slide over.

Just wanted to be clear...maybe next time.

The hand tool will work if you zoom in with the magnifying tool. I expand out the window too. But as far as needing more drawing space, activate the grid, make it a tight count and zoom in.

AVTPro
03-22-2006, 03:59 AM
Thanks Brian,

Is there a way to add more resolution for the cross section.

There's revolve steps, there's two smoothing inputs but it would be great if there was a cross section subdivision base on or beyond the drawn points.

so even if I put in 4 points I could smooth like I added 120 pts. I think this would be the way to make it not necessary to have Encage for the smoothing.

Vizfizz
03-22-2006, 04:51 AM
Well.. ultimately that would be solved if we went to beziers or b splines and then tesselate the curve with settings in the interface, but the Igors shot that down for this first version. I can understand why.. get the basics first. I think if Mr. Revolver is a hit.. it may inspire them to do more.

halfworld
03-22-2006, 09:26 AM
Some images:

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/lighthouse1.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/lighthouse2.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/lighthouse-opengl.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/barrels.jpg


All 100% revolver. The lighthouse could/will be improved in the next beta (better grid snapping). It is to scale: 88 meters high with 1 scene unit = 1cm. It is a copy of Les Héaux de Bréhat in France.
Ian

bronco
03-22-2006, 10:20 AM
pretty nice Ian!

now i regret that i haven't screamed HERE the time beta testers were searched.
oh well. i hope you finish this plugin soon. i can see much posibilities for my work.
great work so far, dear Igors!

Reuben5150
03-22-2006, 10:59 AM
It is a copy of Les Héaux de Bréhat in France.
Ian


Cool ! nice image :thumbsup:


Reuben

halfworld
03-22-2006, 02:59 PM
One more

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/light.jpg

Revolver light, actually it's a Habitat pendent light but who's counting?
Ian

Edit: Fixed link

Igors
03-22-2006, 03:06 PM
Hi, gentlemen

Beta 5 is ready: contours-contours-holes-holes :)
See the new section in updated doc

3DArtZ
03-22-2006, 03:14 PM
Wow Ian(was referring to the light house in particular),

This is really nice.
I've been very impressed with all the samples people have posted.
Igors what a great effort you've put forth!
A great way to start this community off right I'd say!

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com/)

halfworld
03-22-2006, 03:17 PM
Cheers Mike!

Ahh Igors, how did I ever doubt you?!
:applause:
Ian

Vizfizz
03-22-2006, 04:39 PM
Beta 5 received and will be distributed to all beta testers shortly.

This is the one gentlemen. I am extremely pleased with this update. We've got a few more days before the release date. Let's work to pump out a couple more pictures.

Igors
03-22-2006, 04:44 PM
Hi, Mike
Wow Ian(was referring to the light house in particular),

This is really nice.
I've been very impressed with all the samples people have posted.
Igors what a great effort you've put forth!
A great way to start this community off right I'd say!Mike, of course, a moral support is a great thing, but please don't forget: beta 5 is available for you. After all, who have called a genie from his bottle? :)

Igors
03-22-2006, 05:26 PM
Hi, Ian
Edit: Have we discussed having underlay images to copy from? Or is this simply impossible with the current API? API allows only reading images from resources. In other cases developers typically use img files that plug-in reads/unpacks itself. We think your request is rational, but it's enough hard to predict what woud be a result: positive or negative :) Really, a simple fitting image to screen can be not enough, image can be "too black" (problems with graph's visibility), image file is missed if plug-in is moved from to another mac etc. Say shorter, the feature is "too big and too blurred". So, sorry, but no.
But you can do with Path2Line ;)

halfworld
03-22-2006, 05:26 PM
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/sill.jpg

Hope to have an animation done for tomorrow,
Ian

Vizfizz
03-22-2006, 05:42 PM
Beta 5 has been seeded to all beta testers. If you have not received your copy, please contact me.

Vizfizz
03-22-2006, 05:55 PM
I'd like to point out something very cool about the marriage of Bebel and Revolver. Revolver possesses the ability to animate down to the individual control point level. We've never had that level of control before. With this ability, you'll be able to change the shape of revolves or extrusions with precision accuracy over time. Its the closest thing we've ever had to vertex level animation. Very handy indeed.

AVTPro
03-22-2006, 08:33 PM
Just mentioning, but can't seem to get textures to render on a Encage/Revolver model. Just mentioning. Don't if I it's just something simple I am doing wrong.

Vizfizz
03-22-2006, 08:37 PM
And on that note... point level animation...

Igors... is there a potential way we could have a tool to scale selected point positions two dimensionally in the cross section editor? Repositioning points by hand in order to animate a growing cross section equally will be pretty difficult without it.

Vizfizz
03-22-2006, 08:41 PM
Just mentioning, but can't seem to get textures to render on a Encage/Revolver model. Just mentioning. Don't if I it's just something simple I am doing wrong.

Encage, I believe, inherits UV coordinates from the child plugin (revolver), but this should work because I used it on my example. (Unless something has changed in B5.) I'll check it out as soon as I can.

AVTPro
03-22-2006, 08:51 PM
Encage, I believe, inherits UV coordinates from the child plugin (revolver), but this should work because I used it on my example. (Unless something has changed in B5.) I'll check it out as soon as I can.


I will work with this more. I must be really screwing up because I can't get Encage to export as a Sub-D object either :) and I know I have done this before.

AVTPro
03-22-2006, 08:54 PM
Yes, It's me. I was having some confusion with UVs and seeing the model, It was exporting both and I couldn't see it.

Igors
03-23-2006, 02:18 AM
Hi, Brian
And on that note... point level animation...
Igors... is there a potential way we could have a tool to scale selected point positions two dimensionally in the cross section editor? Repositioning points by hand in order to animate a growing cross section equally will be pretty difficult without it.Select 2 or more points and use '[' and ']' (brackets keys, shift-accelerated)

Vizfizz
03-23-2006, 02:23 AM
That's what I was looking for. Excellent.

Igors
03-23-2006, 02:30 AM
Just mentioning, but can't seem to get textures to render on a Encage/Revolver model. Just mentioning. Don't if I it's just something simple I am doing wrong.

Encage, I believe, inherits UV coordinates from the child plugin (revolver), but this should work because I used it on my example. (Unless something has changed in B5.) I'll check it out as soon as I can..
Hi, Alonzo, Brian

Yes, Encage inherits UV's of its child groups. About MrRevolver texturing: turn ON "Use UV Space" (Group Window, Shading Tab) and then manipulate with "Disable UVs" checkbox in Texture Window depending from you want UVs or nope

Igors
03-23-2006, 04:57 AM
Hi, Ian

Our question is: can we simply grab your images for MrRevolver gallery or you prefer to add your logos or what?

halfworld
03-23-2006, 09:46 AM
Hi Igors,

One more for the road: http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/revolver2.mov
Audio comes courtesy of my pestle and mortar :)

Just take the images as they are, but if you could credit me under the links to the images that would be great.

This plug is not only incredibly useful, but also fun :)
Ian

Igors
03-23-2006, 12:24 PM
Hi, Ian

One more for the road: http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/revolver2.mov
I got the idea when grinding some herbs for dinner last night with my pestle and mortar - I recorded the sound from it :)

Just take the images as they are, but if you could credit me under the links to the images that would be great.Clear, thanks.
BTW: what procedural is flickering in animation so much?

halfworld
03-23-2006, 12:28 PM
Yeah I'm gonna fix that, it's aFraktal.
Ian

Edit: I'll do this on Sunday and email it first thing Monday morning.

halfworld
03-24-2006, 09:30 AM
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/anim-u-cv.mov

It isn't pretty, just interesting, I'll try to do something else on Sunday, although it might be too late.

Ian

Igors
03-24-2006, 04:03 PM
Hi, Ian

http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/anim-u-cv.mov
It isn't pretty, just interesting, Yep, not an "utilizing" prj but an interesting experiment IMO. Not all should be absolute concrete, thank you!

3DArtZ
03-24-2006, 05:43 PM
Finally got some time to play with the Mr.Revolver plug.
I think its great!
I built Everthing with the Mr.Revolver, the turbine fans were then made
children of MrsBebel and it extruded the faces of the cone that made up the fans, which
I then added a twist deformer too.
Pretty cool!


http://www.vrcops.com/vids/MrRevoEngine.mov

I had a hard time when I tried to animate the fans spinning with motion vector blur, as it
applied a blur at zero rotation, held for a second, then into the rotation, which the blur was
fine....
Maybe I got a bit ahead of the testing issues here....

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com/)

Vizfizz
03-24-2006, 08:51 PM
Between Revolver, Bebel and deformations... you can build quite a bit. Nicely done Mike.

AVTPro
03-30-2006, 02:24 AM
I just checked out the screen capture movies you did. It's a HUGE time saver.
Hope to see more, maybe on you use the f-curve to generate more forms.


I learned a lot of things I didn't know about the plug. I just so impressed with the quality of the geometry inside EI. Very effecient.

You are right, animating verts are a first in EI with this plug.

Igors does a great job with that.

AWESOME!!!


p.s. Learned how to pronounce Bebel, Gourad :)

Thanks
Alonzo

tjs61822
03-30-2006, 03:21 AM
Alonzo, funny you mentioned the Bebel & Gourad pronunciation. I thought the same thing. Been pronouncing them wrong all this time...but then again I never actually said them out loud to anyone. Ahh, spending too much time in forums!

Tim

Vizfizz
03-30-2006, 03:53 AM
LoL...

I would say that David Argemi and The Igors have the final word on Mrs Bebel's pronunciation. Its either Bebel with a long e or Bebel with a long a. I've always said it with a long a.

As for Gouroud...well.. thats the way I've been saying it for years and never been corrected. I don't think anyone knows...lol I've also seen it spelled Gouraud. I think its french in origin?

halfworld
03-30-2006, 08:26 AM
I haven't watched your vids yet Brian but it is pronounced "Gurrow" if that helps :)

Konkeptoine is the word I used to have trouble saying until I got a phonetic translation from David!

Speaking of pronunciation, there is a sentence that used to be used to test a foreigner's English skills: "The dough faced plough boy hiccoughed and coughed his way through Loughborough."

In that sentence the combination 'OUGH' is pronounced 7 different ways, although in American 'Hiccoughed' is spelt 'Hiccuped' (the pronunciation is the same).

Here endeth the lesson! :D

Ian

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