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Komarcic
02-22-2006, 03:43 PM
first of all, i wanna say hello to all of you lightwavers out there. i'm a maya user btw, but i have a question for you guys. has any of you ever imported any maya objects to lightwave and did you have any problems with it?
does lightwave have v-ray support?

Mylenium
02-22-2006, 06:11 PM
first of all, i wanna say hello to all of you lightwavers out there. i'm a maya user btw, but i have a question for you guys. has any of you ever imported any maya objects to lightwave and did you have any problems with it?

It's quite possible using OBJ, FBX or directly converting it using dedicated tools such as DeepExploration. Of course you need to obey some rules such as SDS settings and UV maps, but shouldn't be too tricky once you get used to it.


does lightwave have v-ray support?

Nope. Not as long as they get moving and have a standalone version of VRay that can use LW files, anyway.

negativecitizen
02-22-2006, 07:53 PM
Hello
Iīve imported maya objects to maya and the most of the time witout problems
why u want to use v-ray ,since u canīve Kray ?
jejej

IC12
02-23-2006, 01:36 PM
Have you seen what people are doing with V-Ray these days??

It just about knocks everything else for 6 in terms of quality and speed combined.
I never took to Max so as soon as V-Ray is standalone, I'll be getting a copy.

yog
02-23-2006, 02:15 PM
Vray is about the only reason I still use MAX.

I too can't wait for the standalone version of Vray to be released.

TRick
02-23-2006, 02:36 PM
hmmm, new post after editing...just ignore :eek:

TRick
02-23-2006, 02:40 PM
Hello
Iīve imported maya objects to maya and the most of the time witout problems
why u want to use v-ray ,since u canīve Kray ?
jejej

Because:
- better integration with host
- dynamic memory allocation
- instancing with proxy meshes
- speed optimizations in light, material, mesh and rendersetup
- superior anti-aliasing

and that is just to name a few. I'm a Lightwave user myself since the beginning, so you can believe me that I would love Kray to be a second VRay, but at the moment it is NOT. I really hope one day it will be. Because of the middle-aged LW-SDK it would be better to develop Kray as a standalone and concentrate on adjusting material-, light- and meshparameters inside Kray itself...

bunnyld
02-23-2006, 04:38 PM
I'ts true. Vray can produce very high quality renders
but - It have it's own disadvantage's

first, I'm sure at olmost 100% that its better use lightwave Fprime for outdoors
because:

1) there is no place for photons technology when outdoors renders needed
2) Lightwave FPrimes is *much faster then Vray

Projects based on toons & caricature dos not need the edge of photo realistic abilitys and get faster and better quaqliti on Fprime when not using GI .

I think Fprime have huge advantage over Vray
Stills images is only a littel part in the industry ...
Vray will not always fit in any project

thev2
02-23-2006, 04:44 PM
1) there is no place for photons technology when outdoors renders neededWhat does that have to do with V-Ray? Photon mapping is not V-Ray's primary GI solution (although it can do photon mapping, if one wishes). The other GI engines in V-Ray work perfectly well for outdoor scenes with skylight.

TRick
02-23-2006, 05:51 PM
...Stills images is only a littel part in the industry ...

Ever tried to do a noiseless animation in FPrime. First you'll have to guess the frame in the animation that will probably have the largest amount of noise. Then you'll have to calculate a noiseless image of that frame and remember the FPrime step. Then you'll have to calculate all other frames at that step, because otherwise you'll have HUGE flickering. If you have that figured out and are not scared of the resulting rendertimes, just try to render a scene with 1000's of 100k poly trees and 500M textures and buy enough licenses of FPrime and Lightwave so you can use your rendernodes on the farm ;)

FPrime has indeed it's advantages, but VRay is a very strong GI-renderer. For other tasks there are other tools. That's why I still use Lightwave next to Max and a lot of other tools.

Netvudu
02-23-2006, 07:14 PM
Ever tried to do a noiseless animation in FPrime. First you'll have to guess the frame in the animation that will probably have the largest amount of noise. Then you'll have to calculate a noiseless image of that frame and remember the FPrime step. Then you'll have to calculate all other frames at that step, because otherwise you'll have HUGE flickering. If you have that figured out and are not scared of the resulting rendertimes, just try to render a scene with 1000's of 100k poly trees and 500M textures and buy enough licenses of FPrime and Lightwave so you can use your rendernodes on the farm ;)

This is simply NOT TRUE as several arch-viz animations Iīve done can prove. 2,500,000 polys are enough for you? thatīs what Iīve done. No need to calculate to which step you have to reach or anything. You do have to take a bit of care when dividing the scene in your nodes not to cut them too much, or if you do, be sure to keep them rendering APPROXIMATELY the same time.
No math here, just some common sense= great animations with almost no flickering. If anything I had the same flickering probs than any other project without Fprime or no radiosity.

So, I suggest before bashing a great product or overrating some other (yes, we also teach V-ray at our Cg school so we do know it) to spend more time working your textures properly and less playing with V-ray, which is a very nice but very limited GI solution, while Fprime is a very nice and very versatile GI and non-GI render solution.

Iīm sorry, I can deal with product praising, but I cannot stand product bashing when itīs based on personal and obviously wrong statements.

TRick
02-23-2006, 10:15 PM
...Iīm sorry, I can deal with product praising, but I cannot stand product bashing when itīs based on personal and obviously wrong statements.

Prove me otherwise and show me a flicker- and noisefree 2.5M poly scene with full GI. It seems you also have enough cash to fill all your rendernodes with LW and FPrime. Or are you getting 1 min. rendertime on full frames on these kind of scene ? :hmm: As I said, I love FPrime for a lot of things, but certainly NOT for making full GI animations. Stay :cool:

Netvudu
02-23-2006, 11:22 PM
Prove me otherwise and show me a flicker- and noisefree 2.5M poly scene with full GI. It seems you also have enough cash to fill all your rendernodes with LW and FPrime. Or are you getting 1 min. rendertime on full frames on these kind of scene ? :hmm: As I said, I love FPrime for a lot of things, but certainly NOT for making full GI animations. Stay :cool:

Got it. Canīt show it for contract reasons. I will be able to when some time passes. Itīs noisefree and just a bit of flickering, nothing big, which would appear probably in normal LW renderer as well.
I donīt have the cash or nodes at home. I do have them at work, of course...and quite a few machines, just like I would need them for any V-ray animation as well. And if you want to discuss prices per node, we can start talking about MAX licenses and I guess that will end any debate.
When it stops being a MAX solution you can praise it a bit more, but for now it ends up as a really expensive rendering method.

As I said I love V-ray for a lot of things, but certainly it isnīt that much out of this world as you pretend it to be.

Stay :cool: too.

TRick
02-23-2006, 11:48 PM
...just like I would need them for any V-ray animation as well...

You only need 1 Max and 1 VRay advanced license for UNlimited network rendering compared to 1 Lightwave and 1 FPrime license PER NODE for rendering with FPrime.

If you can show me FPrime work in half the quality of animations by www.spine3d.com (http://www.spine3d.com) , www.urbansimulations.com/ (http://www.urbansimulations.com/) , www.zerofractal.com (http://www.zerofractal.com) I will be more then interested...(comparable size projects of course)

Netvudu
02-24-2006, 12:31 AM
And youīre talking about comparing??..hah! I donīt know about the other two, but urban simulations is a bad example, because they use quite some monster resources for their projects.
You give me their resources, I keep that quality level.

If youīre going to compare on that level, then you got to compare with similar studios, such as stack studios or other similar people. (I mention them becasue I know they use LW for arch-viz...donīt know if they use Fprime...i know they have their own network render manager)

As I said, if thatīs your example on manageable render farm and affordable solution...bad one.

Again, V-ray is cool for arch-viz, but greatly over-hyped.

ercax
02-24-2006, 12:33 AM
Doesn't LW come with unlimited render nodes?

Netvudu
02-24-2006, 12:41 AM
Yup, but Fprime doesnīt do network rendering as of now, hence Trickīs statement is a valid one.

Of course, he doesnīt need V-ray network capabilites either, because apparently he uses one computer for the whole radiosity animation with Vray, 100% noise-less and flicker-less.
I must check that new v-ray version which seems to spit radiosity frames at a rate of a second per frame, and probably at print resolution.:rolleyes:



...quoting Homer: "Iīm being sarcastic!" :D

TRick
02-24-2006, 09:19 AM
...because apparently....

As a teacher I hope you are more neutral then you show here. But I guess sarcasm is a typical tool for teachers to toy with their students. I'm very happy in both using Lightwave and Max and I would not be without either one. I only "over-hyped" VRay's GI-capabilities, because there simply is NO alternative this moment if you want to do full PAL interior animation within 5-10min per frame on current machines. Kray is on the right path but still has a large memory footprint and misses a lot of integration. All the impressive architectural animation work (not concept stuff) containing GI is made with either fRender or VRay, not Lightwave or FPrime.

creacon
02-24-2006, 11:25 AM
Kray has great potential, but as far as I can see the programmer almost has to hack Lightwave to get to the data he needs. I have never succeeded in rendering a big scene in Kray because it needs too much memory. But if Newtek would allow more direct access to the data this overhead would not be needed. I guess that Kray even has more under the hood than we can see just because the LW interface doesn't have certain parameters.

Standalone would only be possible if he would write a geometry file for every frame, I think that's what Maxell does and MR standalone.

Because:
- better integration with host
- dynamic memory allocation
- instancing with proxy meshes
- speed optimizations in light, material, mesh and rendersetup
- superior anti-aliasing

and that is just to name a few. I'm a Lightwave user myself since the beginning, so you can believe me that I would love Kray to be a second VRay, but at the moment it is NOT. I really hope one day it will be. Because of the middle-aged LW-SDK it would be better to develop Kray as a standalone and concentrate on adjusting material-, light- and meshparameters inside Kray itself...

Netvudu
02-24-2006, 02:54 PM
As a teacher I hope you are more neutral then you show here. But I guess sarcasm is a typical tool for teachers to toy with their students.

First of all, Iīm starting to think you work or recieve money from some V-ray retailer because now youīre moving this to the personal area, which is totally uncalled for. Donīt tell me how I have to do my job, I know it long ago. Thanks. I take the instruction of my students very seriously, and their 3d knowledge is a testimony of a job well done on my side for several years. Other means of instruction Iīve also completed such as conferences and a LW published book have all been well-received so I suppose at least I earned the right to give my opinion on Vray without receiving personal attacks on your side, and no comments on how I do my job and whether Iīm neutral or not.

We can discuss if you wish so the quality of your arch-viz job or whatever thing you do for a living, and if youīre treating properly your customers or trying to deceive them with longer-than-called-for render times or whatever silly idea I come with right now.


because there simply is NO alternative this moment if you want to do full PAL interior animation within 5-10min per frame on current machines

Again, this is not true. Learn proper lighting methods.

IC12
02-24-2006, 03:33 PM
I think you guys are going to get this thread closed.
Can we get back on track and just discuss V-Ray?

If and when it becomes standalone, I will be buying a copy but I'll keep using FPrime too. I've no doubt about that.
The more great tools you have, the better.

TRick
02-24-2006, 04:34 PM
...Can we get back on track and just discuss V-Ray?...

Here is a small part of some raw footage we are working on: http://www.xs4all.nl/~trick/220023concept.mov

At full PAL res those frames render in about 6-10 min. on a dual Xeon3.4. There has been a Lighting Cache and Irradiance map precalculation pass for 2 minutes animation which took 7 hours on one machine. Since this is a discussion about getting faster GI inside Lightwave and not about how to do better lighting, I realy hope VRay Standalone will be out soon, so Lightwave users will benefit from it.

dprgb
02-24-2006, 04:54 PM
Again, V-ray is cool for arch-viz, but greatly over-hyped.

Just to show it's great for non-Arch rendering,

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=316141

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=293794&highlight=flour

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=219491

And also, just to show what they've done to reduce GI flicker (besides blurring the irradiance map),

http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/VRayHelp150beta/tutorials_anim.htm

TRick
02-24-2006, 05:04 PM
...so I suppose at least I earned the right to give my opinion on Vray without receiving personal attacks on your side, and no comments on how I do my job and whether Iīm neutral or not...

Then stop being sarcastic about how I do my work (which you know nothing about) and be professional ;)

RobertoOrtiz
02-24-2006, 05:38 PM
People keep it civil and not personal.


-R

JuanManuel
02-24-2006, 05:51 PM
This is getting a bit nasty. From the passionate point of view of the parts involved, it is obvious that each take their work seriously, and being that way, it is natural that in their experience, certain software solutions are better adapted to their work philosophy than others.

I would just conclude that Fprime and Vray and Kray (and Mental Ray and Maxwell for that matter) produce excellent renders in the hands of people that use them in a constant and dedicated fashion, and some adapt better to some people's workflow or to some projects than others. I believe everybody will benefit with a standalone vray.

TRick
02-24-2006, 05:55 PM
People keep it civil and not personal...

I love Lightwave and I love VRay...nothing more nothing less.

Netvudu
02-24-2006, 07:14 PM
I donīt love any piece of software. I love my girlfriend. I just prefer some software solutions to others.

The funny thing is that I also want Vray to go standalone and get it. The more options, the better. The only thing that made me jump was the cathegorical " the ONLY way to render GI at PAL..." because my own work proves that isnīt the case.

mocaw
02-25-2006, 12:28 AM
For my work flow mr works well for animation and Fprime for stills and large print sized images.

You can't say that Vray renders out frames at X amount of time without including the precalculation. I'm not saying the technology is usless- by no means, but it needs to be added to the calculation.

mr though can achieve VERY good renders for animation- even without using maps. For arch viz this isn't always the case- you'll most likely need to cache it.

Again, as someone so perfectly stated- it depends on your workflow and timeline that you have to work with.

Given that Kray is basicly 1 guy I've been very impressed. Some of the renders out of an experienced Kray user can be down right blazing- yes even faster than Vray and without the pre-cache. However Kray is still almost an Alpha-Beta piece of software, where as Vray is stable and has a well informed/larger userbase.

The least impressed I've been with a render engine is Maxwell. They are some of the most wonderful renders....but the render time... I guess it depends on what you need though.

gerardo
02-25-2006, 07:48 AM
In my work flow LW renderer is faster than F-Prime :D and it seems is faster than some other work flows of other 3d renderers users (including V-Ray). See this thread:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=284010&p=2723408

Btw, Twilight said that his render tests took 10 minutes but his final image at 800x600 took 1 hour. I set up that scene in about 3 hours (model optimization, texturing, surfacing and lighting), no pre-computations or anything. In that time I made those tests on a PIV 2Gb, on a dual Xeon these same tests might be 600% or 700% faster.
I'm sure there are people that prefer more conventional methods, and of course would be great to have not only V-Ray playing with LW but also all the rederers mentioned in that thread; more tools, more options for us and more techniques to play. However is indeed possible to render at PAL res in 5-10 minutes per frame with LW (and even easier now with LW9) :)



Gerardo

mocaw
02-25-2006, 09:35 PM
Yeah, but gerardo, you are a super human render monster. You could squeeze blood out of any LW stone! :)

Netvudu
02-25-2006, 10:41 PM
ah, the super human render monster evolution theory. Yeah, he fits. :D

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