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ThomasHelzle
02-22-2006, 10:22 AM
Hi,

I would be interested to learn how many people use messiahs renderer and how, since there is a lot of discussion but very little results to be seen. The impression I get from this is, that there are mainly two people really using it for production (Taron and Wegg) while everybody else is more or less in "testing mode".

Thank you very much for participating!

Labuzz
02-22-2006, 11:42 AM
"Award winning scenario" is not my typical day of work maybe thats why I will never be able to use it...sorry couldnt resist.
BTW Taron we are all waiting for you to render the scenes (and provide the files) that you can find here :
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=318945

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90264
http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90517

ThomasHelzle
02-22-2006, 11:53 AM
Labuzz: hahaha :wavey:

Very interesting results so far! Keep those votes coming! :thumbsup:

Thank you all! :bowdown:

Wireframes
02-22-2006, 12:09 PM
Hey thomas that's a good idea this thread ;)

I own lightwave 8.5 however I prefer use Messiah for its speed rendering and I love the nodal shaders.

It however misses some functions which appear essential to me
(I hope it will come soon) :
- integrated network rendering --> but not like a basic ScreamerNet ;)
- particules improvement,
- hardbodies dynamics,
- softbodies improvement,

I didn't post anything yet but I will ... I'm just a beginner with Messiah.

Phil

DMack
02-22-2006, 01:52 PM
I'd like to have seen a box saying 'I don't, I just use messiah for animation'. I'd be ticking that box immediately!

ThomasHelzle
02-22-2006, 02:04 PM
Would have been a good idea to add an answer for animate-only people - it didn't occur to me that this would give a better proportion to this poll. Now I don't seem to be able to change the poll to add this question...

Wegg, can you add the answer DMack suggested to the poll?

Thank you!

Lex1342
02-22-2006, 02:17 PM
I would like to use M:W for everything after modeling, including of course rendering animations. I have seen very nice results of the M-renderer, but I didnīt get it to work apart from previews. I havenīt looked at it too much yet, but after playing around, I canīt seem to get the grip just by intuition.
I guess I will have to look at the docs. I was hoping that the introductory-video that Wegg was going to make, would be ready sooner... I rather like to learn by watching video tuts, since then I get into stuff much faster.

Maybe Wegg can give us a hint on when the vid may surface... and Wegg, I am really thankful for what you are doing for us users here; I have learned so much. But I am still a real render-newbie...

LX

Wegg
02-22-2006, 04:33 PM
Wegg, can you add the answer DMack suggested to the poll?


I don't have any way of doing that. Sorry Thomas.

Wireframes
02-22-2006, 04:37 PM
Then kill this thread and open a new one ;)

Wegg
02-22-2006, 04:43 PM
Lex1342: The beta version of Messiah changes the renderer in ways that I think would make it confusing if I were to work an instructional video now. It adds so many things. . . and makes so many other things redundant. What is REALLY impressing me about the beta is Taron and Fori's search for accuracy and quality. They aren't really things the average person will notice but the way specularity and diffuse function works now (in the beta) are a marked improvement over any other renderer I have ever used. And they don't even have everything implemented that Taron and I have discussed yet!

Wegg
02-22-2006, 04:45 PM
I could do that. . . Do you want me to kill this thread and start a new one Thomas?

Julez4001
02-22-2006, 05:24 PM
I would keep this thread, its serving its purpose.

ThomasHelzle
02-22-2006, 05:32 PM
Hi Wegg, no problem.
Thanks for the suggestion, but killing this one and start a new thread/poll would only make sense if the votes already made could be transfered...?
Otherwise I think Julez hit the nail on the head ;-)

So far, the results look very much like what I was expecting. Let's see how the trend continues... :thumbsup:

Best regards,

AlexK
02-24-2006, 06:23 AM
I used the Messiah renderer for several stuff so far. Most prominent the recent panther project I guess. However, that one didn't make great use of the render engine anyway, because I had to render the fur (which is covering every nice SSS I might have used with out fur) in another application.

WoodyLWG
02-24-2006, 11:26 AM
I don't understand how it work, so I don't use it. ...yet. :D

I'm still learning the animation side of the app, after I've got
a really good grip on that portion, I plan to move on with
texturing and rendering. It'll just be a little while before I get
there! ;)

ThomasHelzle
02-25-2006, 03:58 PM
OK, so as of 2/25/2006 there are 13 (22,8%) active users and 44 (77,2%) that don't really use the renderer from a total of 57 voters so far.

Interesting.
(...at least from my non-award-winning point-of-view ;) )

Cheers,

Jedt3D
02-26-2006, 01:09 PM
hey, Thomas
I think it's a good topic, really. I wish to use messiah's renderer but I can't find some good start up tutorial for scene setup, speed adjust + config...
well, I think the renderer is good & fast but if some people sell a good/god send tutorial for sell like the Soft Body tutorial. I'll definitly buy it. ;-)

rush123
02-26-2006, 05:11 PM
Hey Jedt3D,

Julez, wrote a ShaderFlow Walkthru/Tutorials about the render, check link

http://flarenova.com/Msx/msxnotes.htm

R

stooch
02-27-2006, 10:42 PM
well my stance on this has always been, if there is a market right now, its definitelly for a robust, lightweight and complete animation solution.

render engines, they are a dime a dozen.

also, renderfarm support isnt helping messiah either. even if messiah was completely fined tuned as far as rendering goes and made brilliant renders, it would need better renderfarm support to be even considered for any high frame count jobs.

The other spectrum of rendering is VIZ and high res print work, i do ALOT of that and most packages out there choke when it comes down to ram usage. thats why im excited about modo and its buckets and if messiah could complement that or compete with it, then the lack of renderfarm options would not be as painful.

i will be doing some high res tests to see how messiah handles 16k pixel renders.

has anyone ventured in this direction yet?

Julez4001
02-27-2006, 11:47 PM
Starting to agree with stooch that maybe messiah ought to just backup their
animation attributes and wrap up the renderer as the time and commitment of their programmers just isn't enough without them hiring some more help.

Animation tools can always get better and one way is to always keep pushing the envelope and speed and EASE OF USE.
Also making new & better plugins that does nothing but plugin to the big apps and better
import/export of motion curves for maya/max and XSI.

I mean look at Lightwave 9, no new real character tools for the last 4.5 revisions
but the renderer keeps getting better and better.
Messiah hooks up to them like a charm.

maya/max & XSI needs the same seamless connection like messiah-LW.
PointOven is doing that but it needs even faster and better/verstile connections.

ThomasHelzle
03-01-2006, 09:34 AM
Well, while it is said that hindsight is cheap, I agree wholeheartedly with the bit about what a fantastic animation tool messiah could be today without the development time the renderer sucked and still sucks away from it.
From what I know today, I would guess the renderer will take another 2 years until it can compete with other tools in solidness and completeness of the features.
Or maybe: If it isn't there after 6 years, it probably never will.

On the other hand: Animation for Animators, not TDs, is still a heavily sought after thing. And improvements in that area could be made in a finite timeframe: If an autorig is too much to develop, drop it and just deliver several good rigs from simple to complex and parts of rigs with the app. (not only fish ;) ) Show the users how to adapt those rigs to their characters. Improve the setup saving and loading and you will have come a long way.
Build in better import and export, maybe including something like Collada or another open format...

Don't develop for developers and TDs, but for ANIMATORS. That means that you deliver 30 or more useful, intuitive actions for armatures, not 5 and a SDK. Animators don't code, Period.

Think simple.

I did the TLH Shader tools in 2 days as my first exercise in messiah coding and they improved my render-experience massively. Such small things sometimes help people more than some on-the-edge-of-technology tools. While this is a render example, it holds for animation at least as much.
I hardly dare to mention "search and replace in expressions". That demand is over 6 years old and should be a piece of cake to implement.

Or other little helpers: In XSI I draw a bone chain and bang, it has IK, FK a slider for blending them and tons of settings for handles, IK style (2D and 3D) etc. Maybe even to much, but some such convenience functions would take messiah a long way toward 2006.

Bones should finally get not only the option to realtime modify the jonts but also rotate the bones individually. Not only splitting bones, but joining them too...

"Maintenance" I would call it.
Keep what was good in a decent shape.
Refine existing tools after their initial introduction in a regular manner.
If users have problems with a tool, LISTEN to them, even if you yourself think the feature is the coolest since sliced bread and the user is just being stupid.
From Compose to DirectX, from Armatures to the timeline handles - there aren't many areas where there aren't obvious things to improve.

But the problem may be that the basic stuff that is so much needed every day is extremely boring. It is much more interesting to develop some completely new stuff.
I even understand that...

OK, I'm wandering way off topic here. Sorry for ranting once more.
I still seem to have some hope for messiah deep inside :shrug: :rolleyes: :blush: :)

Best regards,

Julez4001
03-01-2006, 12:11 PM
I know a lot of places DON'T consider messiah (for character animation) because they don't know how well it hooks up to a Maya/3DSMAX pipeline.
This needs to be messiah next proving ground VS a renderer. IMO of course.

Since Autodesk bought Maya, then maybe PMG should make a guaranteed hookup to
3DSMAX and Maya First.

Solve the questions for big houses.

Can I import/export motion curves easily?
How do I animate a character with multiple mesh?
Is it a one button transfer of transmitting animation data?
If I change/update my model in 3DSMAX/Maya, what does that do to my connection/point data file?
Should messiah have its own point cloud format (.mdd like)
It should be a open format too!

In 3DSMAX/Maya, does messiah make it easier to (character) animate in messiah than in main package.
If no autorig, large library of ready made rigs or rigs that can be expanded.

TEXTURE in pipeline

Can the rigger in messiah and the texture artist in Max/Maya workon the same model? If not, what is the workflow: Is it easy to swap out?


A lot of of this above is a no-brainer with Lightwave but toughie with 3DSMAX/Maya.


PARTICLES in pipeline

Can I animate particles in messiah and bring them into 3DSMAX/Maya?
If not, can my particle system in 3DSMAX/Maya interact with messiah-driven character just as seamlessly?


MORE TOOLS in Messiah

Basically copy the toolset from Chicken Little, the widgets and customizable interface
Some preset hookups for animators would be nice but allow the TDs to have a ball (more advanced Armature).


Just basically squash the moans and groans from TDs and producers when they consider using a third party tool and considering to intergrated in a larger pipeline/3DSMAX/Maya.


This is all my speculation, but i think the indstry has upped its game and well
the Renderer will continue sucking up the development time.

No new videos from PMG on the old renderer toolset is a drag.

ThomasHelzle
03-06-2006, 09:55 AM
OK, 68 Voters so far until 03/06/2006.
17 are using messiah for rendering as far as possible (25%).
51 don't (75%).

Any more Votes?

Thank you all very much!

Nichod
03-07-2006, 09:11 AM
See I see it as a little different Thomas.

29 - Would use it if training was available. (likely)

17 - Use it full time.

22 - May use it after the next update.

Even if you took out any chance of the 22 using it. You have at least 46 people that have voted and would use it if they understood it better. Over 60% of the votes would use Messiah as an option in their pipeline, given better education.

stooch
03-07-2006, 02:05 PM
however it is possible that as people get more educated, they begin realizing that there are serious problems that exist and they may vote differently as a result.

DMack
03-07-2006, 04:08 PM
I've said in serveral threads, they'd be better, given the size of the dev team concentrating 100% of their efforts on the animation side. On the animation part, I think they have something seriously good to offer. As stooch says, there are a LOT of renderers, and some really nice upcoming ones (modo201). The messiah:render part, I fear will just make the animation side less and less competitive. I just don't understand the reasoning. Two or three people, to me, just doesn't seem like anything like enoughpeople to develop BOTH animation and rendering. Charater animation, on the other hand, I feel, is specialist enough to be developed by say 3 or 4 people. Hey I could be wrong....Wish I was.... ;)

Alex_Rooth
03-07-2006, 05:34 PM
Hi all

I've just added my vote, which is to say that I play around with it every now and then, but don't really use it. I agree with a lot of the comments above; the renderer seems to suck up an enormous amount of development time, which appears to mean a slow-down in development of other parts of the software.

I recently tried to use the renderer to do some rendering (about two weeks ago), but as soon as I hit tab, the object disappeared and wouldn't render. The object, which was originally created in Silo, rendered fine in Lightwave. Before this, objects would frequently turn green. I have had frequent crashes with high poly objects. When I bought a Studio license, I had seriously thought that the renderer would replace Lightwave's - those Arnold renders looked (and probably still do look) fantastic. But I have never got results like that. It also now has to compete with Fprime, and soon with Modo 201.

Taron has got some superb results and so have one or two other users; one or two stunning renders such as the sea horses, and Thomas's amazing abstract texture pieces, come to mind. These show that it can be done, and when I see them I am amazed at what the renderer can do. However, the good quality renders on public display are very few in number, which to me seems to show that not very many people are using the renderer.

Alex

Nichod
03-07-2006, 07:15 PM
I think the development of the renderer is a good idea. They have started it, and they need to finish it, otherwise it was all wasted time..completely. Once they have it straight and working correctly, they can focus on bring the rest up-to-date. And as much as people say that the renderer is outdated, etc..etc. I don't know your reasoning, but from what I've seen from various people its very capable, and very fast, and with a few tweaks it will be a successful addition. Plus, pmg including a renderer within the program opens it up to people that don't have maya, xsi, lw to plug into....it gives pmg another market.

stooch
03-07-2006, 08:10 PM
if finishing the renderer just because they started it means sacrificing animator in the process, then ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA. Did you vote that you use is at work? because if you didnt, why would you be concerned with it being finished at the expense of animation? I think its painfully obvious as to what is more important in messiah, maybe we should start a poll as to WHY PEOPLE BOUGHT messiah, animation or rendering?

Wegg
03-07-2006, 08:17 PM
Hi all

I recently tried to use the renderer to do some rendering (about two weeks ago), but as soon as I hit tab, the object disappeared and wouldn't render.

This just means that you are trying to metanurb something that has either an n-gon or a something incompatible with Messiah. VERY easy to fix. Just remember to keep everything quads if you can and when you can't. . . the occasional 3.

The object, which was originally created in Silo, rendered fine in Lightwave. Before this, objects would frequently turn green.

That just means you don't have a material applied to the surface. Its that bright green to let you know "HEY YOU HAVEN'T TEXTURED ME YET!"

I have had frequent crashes with high poly objects.

THAT is suprising. I have had models with millions of polygons render just fine. Were you trying to displaced that high poly object?

When I bought a Studio license, I had seriously thought that the renderer would replace Lightwave's - those Arnold renders looked (and probably still do look) fantastic. But I have never got results like that. It also now has to compete with Fprime, and soon with Modo 201.

Well I still assert that it does compete with those. Its just not as well documented so people (like yourself) feel frustrated.

Taron has got some superb results and so have one or two other users; one or two stunning renders such as the sea horses, and Thomas's amazing abstract texture pieces, come to mind. These show that it can be done, and when I see them I am amazed at what the renderer can do. However, the good quality renders on public display are very few in number, which to me seems to show that not very many people are using the renderer.

:sad:

crossbones
03-07-2006, 08:45 PM
You guys have to look at the resources PMG has and who is doing the programming on the render. Mostly Taron and Fori. These are incredibly talented coders, they have some ideas and implementations to the likes that you will never see implemented in any other 3D animation and Rendering Package. The problem in my eyes is that they simply need to have more programming power to get the releases to you guys. They put in all their time as it is. What the other companies have is simply resources and I think that PMG has competed quite well seeing the resources they have.

I am suggesting a Zbrush Central approach encouraging people to post their work and a place where everyone can look at what everyone is doing.


I used messiah's renderer in production and let me tell you, for what I wanted to accomplish it gave me and my team well over what we wanted. i hope to show you guys what we worked on Soon as well as my other projects for rendering. Its very much complete and really when i have a question I just ask.

Bottom line and simply said, there are bigger and brighter things to focus about in the course of our life. If we need to use another 3D animation package to do our professional work there are other choices out there that do the job....probably not as good, but still they do the job well enough to make awesome movies, games, shows etc.

My hopes is that messiah gets an infusion of money and they start bringing on people!

Alex_Rooth
03-07-2006, 09:17 PM
Hi Wegg

I didn't know the green colour meant that, thanks for clearing that up. The n-gon issue is something I am aware of; if Lightwave can handle it, I would expect messiah to be able to too as LW doesn't do n-gons either. Trying to sort out what may or may not be wrong with a model is just time wasted - I might as well render it somewhere else. But, I see from the hint list at the top of the forum that n-gons may be on the way, which will be cool.

What do you mean by your smiley at the bottom quote of my post? I don't get it. Do you mean there is some good stuff on the way? : ) But, I think my point is valid; where are all the renders? Someone post some renders.

Alex

DMack
03-07-2006, 09:18 PM
if finishing the renderer just because they started it means sacrificing animator in the process, then ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA.........I think its painfully obvious as to what is more important in messiah, maybe we should start a poll as to WHY PEOPLE BOUGHT messiah, animation or rendering?

I second that. I'd like to see a poll that compares usage of animation vs renderer. If the poll is cleverly thought out, then it could be really interesting. Any suggestions to the entries? Lets debate that a little before someone bangs up a poll. When we're agreed, then we can start a poll and let the voting begin!.....Unless you all think that's a daft idea?!?! :)

I'll give it a go.........
Why did you buy Messiah?
1. Purely for animating commercially and that is unlikely to change
2. Purely for rendering commercially and that is unlikely to change
3. Purely for animating commercially and I might look into the renderer
4. Purely for rendering commercially and I might look into the animation
5. For both animation and rendering commercially
......and then the same again but for hobbyists instead of commercially.

Alex_Rooth
03-07-2006, 09:19 PM
Hi Crossbones

Assuming you're not under an NDA, please go ahead and post some of your renders. Thanks.

Alex

Wegg
03-07-2006, 09:43 PM
Hi Wegg

What do you mean by your smiley at the bottom quote of my post? I don't get it. Do you mean there is some good stuff on the way? : ) But, I think my point is valid; where are all the renders? Someone post some renders.

Alex

I believe that is a frowny. :-(

stooch
03-07-2006, 11:14 PM
Hi Wegg
What do you mean by your smiley at the bottom quote of my post? I don't get it.
Alex

because you forgot to mention his badass renders :) and they are badass, so ill vouch for them.

its ok wegg you arent forgotten lol :)

Wegg
03-07-2006, 11:18 PM
ha ha. . . no it wasn't that.

Its just the fact that it hasn't been embraced. That Cornell box was really cool but it seems like. . . with a few exceptions. . . everyone is scared to death of hitting F9 in Messiah. Yes I understand that you would like to see the animation tools improved but. . . <sigh> I don't know what I'm saying.

Just. . .

:sad:

stooch
03-07-2006, 11:20 PM
your poll suggestion looks good to me dmack. you know my answer before we even start though.

and honestly, lets sit back and really look at what it is that can improve in messiah animation side. you know, its really not that bad.

-i can see armatures being 3d (check, from taron hints).
-improve the rotation coordinates to reduce gimal locks.
-give the expression editor search and replace function (relatively easy??)
-make more preset rigs for the setup box? (we can start a contest for making preset rigs and maybe include them with messiah releases? make the rigs in such a way taht you can drag around handles in setup mode to scale and reposition the rig elements while keeping it intact - WITH ARMATURES ALREADY ASSIGNED AND POSITIONED)
-better sbd?
-better connection to LW (more like point oven) i think in general, baking should be included and working nicely in messiah, its just too important for connecting to other apps!
-little changes to the way you interact with the widget, maybe make it optional to behave like LW for example...

not a big list if you ask me. that for me would already make messiah alot better for animation..

stooch
03-07-2006, 11:23 PM
ha ha. . . no it wasn't that.

Its just the fact that it hasn't been embraced. That Cornell box was really cool but it seems like. . . with a few exceptions. . . everyone is scared to death of hitting F9 in Messiah. Yes I understand that you would like to see the animation tools improved but. . . <sigh> I don't know what I'm saying.

Just. . .

:sad:

lets do some more tests then! lets pick something interesting. or make something interesing.

Wegg
03-08-2006, 12:06 AM
I'm busy trying to pay my bills.

isobarxx
03-08-2006, 12:54 AM
...while looking at CGTalk ;)

Wegg
03-08-2006, 01:00 AM
thats my commic relief. :-)

Alex_Rooth
03-08-2006, 09:07 AM
Yes, I should have said, Wegg's cactus render is very nice too. How did you do the spines?

Also, back on the renderer, I would love to see Fprime-like capability. It seems that something similar will be in Modo 201. After using Fprime, hitting F9 to test render seems tedious.

Alex

Wegg
03-08-2006, 06:52 PM
I agree. I'm fairly certain that was what the render "lock" was supposed to do.

Whats really fun is the fact that you can actually change things about your model WHILE its rendering. So I know it can be done. . .

Try it. . .

Plop a sphere in your scene and while its rendering change its color. It will change in the render.

The foundation is there. . . they just have to make it work I guess.

ThomasHelzle
03-08-2006, 09:14 PM
The foundation is there. . . they just have to make it work I guess.
Amen to that ;)

EvilGnome
03-09-2006, 01:05 AM
ha ha. . . no it wasn't that.
. . . everyone is scared to death of hitting F9 in Messiah.


Thats my story.

The few times I've tried rendering demo scenes in Messiah I would generally get a crash or a lockup. Occassionally I would be rewarded with an incredibly slow render.

I put it down to my "feeble" machine (1.6Ghz P4, 1Gig of RAM) and Messiah's renderer being a work in progress.

aforetaste
03-09-2006, 02:06 PM
...Its just not as well documented so people (like yourself) feel frustrated.:sad:

My sentiments EXACTLY!
Nothing like building a rocket ship that no one can fly because there isn't a sufficient user manual except in the minds of a few scientists...

Julez4001
03-09-2006, 03:43 PM
You know the funny thing is that messiah led in the video tutorial/manual WITH
your software package in 1999.
Before then, Maya, LW, Max and others all had static manuals and third party training DVDs.


Fred Tepper blew the doors off dull manuals with injokes, animated gifs and mini videos.
messiah wasn't hard to lean and the learning curve was eased. Most everyone who learned messiah:animate was on the same page of proficency with the software.

But of late, the render has individual levels of learning. There is no set standard of learning when it comes to the render. A lot of happy accidents to a few godlings (Wegg, Thomas, Taron, Tony, etc)

It was said that Taron would have new tutorials on the render a few weeks after Siggraph.
its March 2006... not one training video.

aforetaste
03-09-2006, 06:42 PM
I have to say, Jules4001...
It's because of your tutorials, along with Joe Cosman's and Weggs that some of us can hang on this rocket ship at all.

Thanks!!! :thumbsup:

crossbones
03-09-2006, 07:12 PM
I think that if you look back at the development of messiah it lead in the documentation war and revolutionized the industry. Fred I am afraid is obviously very busy, after all look at how he's been using messiah in his own projects. I hope if its not him that does the next round of documentation then someone else does with the same effort and energy fred has.

My only wish with the time and effort that Messiah puts into its development is that they could quickly create a camtasia video as to how it works. Even if it means Taron opening up the Neckling project and walking people through it, I think it would go miles to not only sell the software but allow new users to quickly use it. Look at Luxology, they don't even have to write down features, they show them in a video!!

In Taron's defense, he's one artist, and it would go miles that once you finish a project do a little walkthrough camtasia video and show us how you got there. The Zbrush Community does this and look how much it helps them.


Who's with me!!

Julez4001
03-09-2006, 07:24 PM
Thanks for the compliment....


The funny thing is that at all the shows: Siggraph and Zbrush events.
Everyone is hanging on this TARON;s every word and clicks. You should see the audience.
Yet it seem that kind of fame is lost at PMG, they close this guy in a closet to make new RENDER stuff that only he can make and use.

Face it, he is known more for Zbrush than messiah and HE WORKS FOR PMG!

I know I have said time and time gain, that he needs to stop whatever he doing ...
take 2 days and bang out a few video tutorials in the vein of Fred Teppers (Gary or mine).

The eyeball and Anisotrophic nodes are his babies and really only he knows how to get them
working 90% of the time, everyone else its a science experiment.

ThomasHelzle
03-09-2006, 08:17 PM
godlings? Gimme a break :rolleyes:

Come on guys, don't fool yourself too much: After you can use the tool, it has still to be worthwhile, no?
Most people who did great work with the renderer gave it up after finding more and more serious flaws, stopping their stride. If this wouldn't have been the case, they would have created a much greater suction toward messiah and we would see tons of renders from starters to pros.
But the people who are able to use one renderer are as able to use another in most cases, so why bother with messiah which lacks so many features a renderer needs today, has so many flaws and which shows such slow development?

I only feel sorry for the developers who are trapped with a software with great potential and a team too small to really get it airborne. So far it has been a classical deadlock situation. :shrug:

Cheers :bowdown:

Julez4001
03-09-2006, 08:30 PM
man, you can't take a compliment.

Hey Thomas You coded plugins for messiah, that would qualify as a godling and a half :twisted: :scream:

Anyway, its true I think they, too , are in trapped a development ditch.