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PetterSundnes
02-22-2006, 10:19 AM
In case anyone here ever get into the problem of multi million polygon scenes and as such having trouble handling it in LightWave there is a piece of software that is called Rational Reducer, developed by Systems In Motion, that can do the job.. easily.. millions of polys reduced to a few hundred thousand while keeping a usable geometry. Its based on artificial intelligence and as such has been learning how to do poly reduction the right way instead of a rigid algorithm that has its own way of doing it regardless of the models structure and poly flow. So in a situation where you have a model with alot of small detail such as nuts and bolts that are quite small compared to the construction itself, it reduces the polys on those first, trying to keep the shape of the larger structures as much as possible. Whats the catch? The price... it costs more than 5 licences of LW, but if you ever get into a project where it would be useful, you can put it into the budget so you can do that and any future "technical render" jobs in 1/10th of the time, both in terms of handling models, as well as rendertimes.

http://www.sim.no/products/RR/

I am coming off as a Rational Reducer fanboy or sales person i guess :) , but you can download the demo and see for yourself (saving disabled). We have bought it here at work and it will be very useful for those overly complex Autodesk Inventor files that needs to be rendered by tomorrow.

Cougar12dk
02-22-2006, 10:34 AM
Nice :)

Then you just have get rid of all the unnessesary trigons :thumbsup:

Mylenium
02-22-2006, 11:43 AM
Nice :)
Then you just have get rid of all the unnessesary trigons :thumbsup:

Yeah, that's my biggest concern... Since it only spits out 3DS or DXF again, it will still be quite painful to get anything usable in LW - hours of merging vertices and fixing flipped polygons.


The price... it costs more than 5 licences of LW, but if you ever get into a project where it would be useful, you can put it into the budget so you can do that and any future "technical render" jobs in 1/10th of the time, both in terms of handling models, as well as rendertimes.

The price is just ridiculous for this type of stuff, no matter how big a budget you have and how smart they claim this tool is. The very limited I/O options are by no means convincing given the price. You can get PolyTrans and all the CAD modules for it for half the price and have even more control by loading CAD data in its native format from nearly every big app out there.

Mylenium

PetterSundnes
02-22-2006, 12:02 PM
Yeah, that's my biggest concern... Since it only spits out 3DS or DXF again, it will still be quite painful to get anything usable in LW - hours of merging vertices and fixing flipped polygons.

The price is just ridiculous for this type of stuff, no matter how big a budget you have and how smart they claim this tool is. The very limited I/O options are by no means convincing given the price. You can get PolyTrans and all the CAD modules for it for half the price and have even more control by loading CAD data in its native format from nearly every big app out there.

Mylenium

I think you are missing the point. This is not a file conversion program, but a polygon reducer based on artificial intelligence. If someone hands you a 3 million polygon model (which an inventor file can easily do when converted to polygons), what do you do? How do you even work with such a heavy model without having the software crash? Even if you convert an Inventor file with a rather low polygon setting, the sheer amount of nuts bolts in the scene can cause intense polycounts, which is easily reduced by RR.

Triangles are not a problem unless you plan to add soft deformation of some sort, i.e. on a character, but this is intended for industrial use, and as such it is perfect (triangles or not). If you spend 10 times the amount of resources on getting a heavy model set up and render, then it makes perfect sense to throw some money at this type of software and do many more projects in a shorter time span = more money pr hour spent on the project.

I have had no problems in getting the model into LightWave after reduction (no polygon flipping or unwelded vertecies). Btw, RR has a built in vertecies weld option with tolerance settings.

Zarathustra
02-22-2006, 01:30 PM
That price is ridiculous. Period.

Of course there's quemloss3, but then there's the "Geometry Reduction Tool" that will be in the upcoming Modo 201 link (http://www.luxology.com/modo/201/media.aspx) and Silo has it's topology brush link (http://www.nevercenter.com/videos/index.php?vidclip=topology_and_snapping.mov&artist=Walter%20Behrnes)

habaņero
02-22-2006, 02:50 PM
Have you tried polyon cruncher (http://www.mootools.com/plugins/us/polygoncruncher/index.asp) from Mootools? It is a 119$ with their excellent 3d photo browser software included.

PetterSundnes
02-22-2006, 02:58 PM
We tried it here at work and came to the conclusion that it wasnt good enough, but still great value for the money.

adrencg
02-22-2006, 04:07 PM
We tried it here at work and came to the conclusion that it wasnt good enough, but still great value for the money.

Cruncher messes up UV maps.

1/100
02-22-2006, 04:32 PM
Wow this is a great reducer. Much better than polyon cruncher IMHO, but way over priced.

Mylenium
02-22-2006, 06:20 PM
I think you are missing the point. This is not a file conversion program, but a polygon reducer based on artificial intelligence. If someone hands you a 3 million polygon model (which an inventor file can easily do when converted to polygons), what do you do? How do you even work with such a heavy model without having the software crash? Even if you convert an Inventor file with a rather low polygon setting, the sheer amount of nuts bolts in the scene can cause intense polycounts, which is easily reduced by RR.

Triangles are not a problem unless you plan to add soft deformation of some sort, i.e. on a character, but this is intended for industrial use, and as such it is perfect (triangles or not). If you spend 10 times the amount of resources on getting a heavy model set up and render, then it makes perfect sense to throw some money at this type of software and do many more projects in a shorter time span = more money pr hour spent on the project.

I have had no problems in getting the model into LightWave after reduction (no polygon flipping or unwelded vertecies). Btw, RR has a built in vertecies weld option with tolerance settings.

Your arguments are all valid, but one could it also see the other way around: If it takes such an expensive "plugin" to get CAD-data in LW, than perhaps LW simply is the wrong tool? You know, MAX and Maya support IGES and advanced DXF quite well and don't require you to work with polys for this type of stuff at all, if you don't want to. Anyway, the price tag is prohibitive for most users even if you work with CAD-based data a lot especially since you cannot charge your clients only a percentage of the overall investment.

Mylenium

jeremyhardin
02-22-2006, 07:07 PM
In case anyone here ever get into the problem of multi million polygon scenes and as such having trouble handling it in LightWave there is a piece of software that is called Rational Reducer, developed by Systems In Motion, that can do the job.. easily.. millions of polys reduced to a few hundred thousand while keeping a usable geometry. Its based on artificial intelligence and as such has been learning how to do poly reduction the right way instead of a rigid algorithm that has its own way of doing it regardless of the models structure and poly flow. So in a situation where you have a model with alot of small detail such as nuts and bolts that are quite small compared to the construction itself, it reduces the polys on those first, trying to keep the shape of the larger structures as much as possible. Whats the catch? The price... it costs more than 5 licences of LW, but if you ever get into a project where it would be useful, you can put it into the budget so you can do that and any future "technical render" jobs in 1/10th of the time, both in terms of handling models, as well as rendertimes...

I have to admit, I was taken aback by the price. I expected it to be expensive, but not quite as expensive as it is. I can see a market for it, but I'm certainly not part of that market. More likely a large studio purchase than me freelancing.

Thanks for the review though. Good to know your options in situations like that! :thumbsup:

Freak!!
02-22-2006, 08:46 PM
I use QuemmLoss3 in LW, and i also use the even better Poly Reduction tool, and XSI Essentials. The XSI PolyReduction tool, is awesome it's amazing how many less polys it can make, and still have a usable mesh...... I'd like to see QuemmLoss4 do more of XSI's skills.

As for triangles....... Ah Helooooo.....
Merge Trigons, or TB Untriple.......

My normal method for LW is - Quemmloss3, merge trigons, merge points..... Done!

Eclyps19
02-22-2006, 08:57 PM
I'd much rather buy a new car, thanks.

I can see its usefulness but holy hell what a price.

habaņero
02-23-2006, 09:15 PM
Aint much for an Oil company though, check their clients ... with the current gas prices ...

Interesting to hear the different options compared. Just outta curiosity, do any of you people have an idea how big the difference in capability is when it comes to the number of polygons? Like at what number of poly's will polygon cruncher choke? XSI? LW/Quemloss? Other alternatives?

Freak!!
02-23-2006, 10:29 PM
Interesting to hear the different options compared. Just outta curiosity, do any of you people have an idea how big the difference in capability is when it comes to the number of polygons? Like at what number of poly's will polygon cruncher choke? XSI? LW/Quemloss? Other alternatives?

That's a good question, something i wondered about the expensive one myself.
XSI PR and Modelers Quemmloss are both good, i think XSI's PR is quicker (sometimes)

But both suffer from the fact that on a 1Gb machine they can't say reduce 2.5million poly objects easilly, if at all....... Modeler gives me "out of memory" and XSI does the exact same thing...... I think i even tried to halve that as well, and niether plugin could cope on my older 1Gb system... I have a newer dual 64 machine with 2Gb, so i'll have to test it again....

One of the reasons i upgraded XSI Ess, was the idea of a Giga-Bit core......
Avids slogan, was "If you can load it, you can render it"... Unfortunately i did not read...
"If you can load it, you can edit/manipulate or poly reduce it".... :)
So i was surprised, but XSI doesn't seem to handle it more efficently than LW....
I'm not sure about Polygone cruncher or the others mentioned.1

jeremyhardin
02-23-2006, 10:34 PM
... but XSI doesn't seem to handle it more efficently than LW....
hmm. I don't model much in XSI, but compared to how Layout handles lot's of polygons and lots of textures, etc., I find XSI handling it MUCH more efficiently. perhaps you're just comparing Polygon Reducers though.

TRick
02-23-2006, 11:02 PM
How is it possible that the 3dsMax plugin is almost 1 tenth of the standalone price ? It seems as if it is the same engine !!

Freak!!
02-23-2006, 11:45 PM
hmm. I don't model much in XSI, but compared to how Layout handles lot's of polygons and lots of textures, etc., I find XSI handling it MUCH more efficiently. perhaps you're just comparing Polygon Reducers though.


Yeah just comparing poly reduction, they both run out of memory at about the same level.....

But as for actual poly's being manipulated in Layout or XSI, XSI just craps on any software
around it's OGL speed is far superior to any of the other packages by a signifigant margin....
The 2.5million poly is slow in Layout, Slower in Modeler, and spins like a 50 poly LW model in XSI...... In Modeler there is signifigant lag when using it viewports, not so in XSI....
XSI is just freaky at viewport speeds... :)

hrgiger
02-23-2006, 11:51 PM
Hmm....where can I find a professional price reduction tool?

jeremyhardin
02-24-2006, 12:05 AM
Hmm....where can I find a professional price reduction tool?

I could come up with one for you for about $100,000. (not functional for self-price-reduction).

;)

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