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stooch
02-15-2006, 09:14 PM
So lets kick things off. There is a thread on newtek forums comparing LW to Kray and to many other render engine speeds using radiosity. Since Messiah isnt even mentioned im taking it upon myself to see how it stacks up.

*Lw rendered this benchmark scene in 26min50 with 4 threads on this AMD64 4800+ dualcore.
Using only 1 bounce.

Kray rendered this with 1 thread and 4 bouces (it doesnt support HT yet). 5:36
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/LWBenchmarkKrayFG400.png

Fprime rendered this with 1 thread and 4 bounces in the same same time:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/LWBenchmarkKrayFPrime4threadsSAME.png

Rendering with messiah using one thread and 4 bouces 5:24
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1491-1/Image000.jpg

Quality is ouch, considering that im using a dual 3.6ghz Xeon (1 thread though) Messiah seems to have alot of problem with blotchy shadows in reflections. also there is a weird white shape reflecting in all the spheres and the LW logo has a few white spikes (they are black in LW but when i open the object in messiah they are white). any ideas on fixes?

btw, im using a spotlight as suggested by wegg. the spotlight angle is 90 degrees to simulate the area light better. im going to try upping the shadow quality.

Here is the project file:

stooch
02-15-2006, 10:14 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1496-1/Image001.jpg
9:52

Using a Planar Light, Shadow Quality 20,

AA level 3, Threshold .015, AA pattern: Enh Hammer, Size 1.5

Light Sources: ALL GI Type: Monte Carlo, GI Samples 7, GI Depth 4, Auto GI reduction off.

GI Photons 250k, GI Gather Radius 100, GI Gather Count 500, GI Intensity 1.2, GI Noise Reduction .01,

I dont like how im losing the bottom edge of the spheres and the hard edge between the ceiling and walls.

opera
02-15-2006, 10:37 PM
Hi,


I would like to participe and make some tests.
thanks for sharing :)

cheers!


note: for white area on LW logo (did you check if have more than 4 polygons (ngons)), overlaped polygons ?etc..

stooch
02-15-2006, 10:49 PM
Everyone is welcome to contribute. just make sure you copy my settings and fill them in, i want to make it a resource so that people using messiah can refer to these renders to see how the settings look and how they affect render time. I know with enough tweaking we can get close to kray with quality/time.

FYI the project file has been updated with the fixed LWO. no more white logo pieces or weird shapes.

Also, i see that in LW the light object is using glow effect. anything similar in messiah?

stooch
02-16-2006, 12:58 AM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1498-1/Image002.jpg
10:31

Using a Spot Light, Shadow Quality 5, Falloff Inverse Distance .0001 Cone Angle 90

AA level 4, Threshold .015, AA pattern: Hammersley, Size 1.5

Light Sources: Direct GI Type: Monte Carlo, GI Samples 5, GI Depth 4, Auto GI reduction on.

GI Photons 70k, GI Gather Radius 140, GI Gather Count 500, GI Intensity 1.8, GI Noise Reduction .1,

Again, the bottom edge is too light, also i reduced the weird reflected shape but a piece is still there. Atleast the LW logos are all black and the upper edge isnt as sharp.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 01:00 AM
http://www.eggprops.com/%7Eeggington/RenderTests/OneFiftySeven.png

Vroom! Messiah rules. :-)

stooch
02-16-2006, 01:06 AM
awwww... dont take the easy way out. try to match the original

although id like to know your settings....

Wegg
02-16-2006, 01:12 AM
I honestly can't remember them. This was a test a friend and I did on IRC in December. He was using Kray and F-Prime.

svintaj
02-16-2006, 01:17 AM
Stooch: What have you done with the wall behind the camera?

/ Svante

stooch
02-16-2006, 01:19 AM
it wasnt planar, i just opened it in modeler and then scaled it using local size. just load up the new .mpj file i linked int he first post. it has the latest assets in it.

now there are still artifacts but they seem to come and go depending on how many photons i use... go figure.

I figured it out. If the GI gather radius is too high, it will average highlights from the spheres into the wall making those shapes... or something.

stooch
02-16-2006, 01:42 AM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1500-1/Image003.jpg
5:22

Using a Spot Light, Shadow Quality 5, Falloff None, Cone Angle 90

AA level 4, Threshold .025, AA pattern: Hammersley, Size 1.5

Light Sources: Direct GI Type: Monte Carlo, GI Samples 5, GI Depth 4, Auto GI reduction on.

GI Photons 75k, GI Gather Radius 12, GI Gather Count 300, GI Intensity 1, GI Noise Reduction .015,

Getting there. I can probably make it a tad faster or smoother. but i think messiah is as fast as kray. Now, who can figure out how to make the underside of those spheres a bit darker?

Note that anomaly dissapeared. If i make gather radius any bigger, it will come back. So i have to increase photons i guess. Wellp, its 9pm and im still at work, just for you guys so ive had enough for tonight. l8r.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 01:47 AM
I think you could up the quality of the shadows a lot more. Try for 12. Then you could get away with a higher threshold on the Adaptive AA. I also prefer the RG pattern over anything else. It seems to provide cleaner edges. The rule is. . . more rays. . . smaller gather radius gives you more accuracy.

opera
02-16-2006, 01:57 AM
but this last result is darker compared to Kray ( add more depth in GI panel)
or use the filter to balance the pic..

too much brightness on the floor ..

you can add a Fresnel effect on reflection ... you will get better and realistic render of chrome ball ....

use a gradient( on normal )

Wegg
02-16-2006, 02:01 AM
How do you figure that Opera? Chrome balls are reflective all over.

Here is my attempt. (Damn you Stootch for twisting my arm.)

http://www.eggprops.com/%7Eeggington/RenderTests/quality.png

Not quite as fast but I think It is of a much higher quality. Especially on the ceiling. That time isn't accurate. I don't think it is taking into account the first GI pass. Its more like 14 minutes.

stooch
02-16-2006, 02:24 AM
very nice. im trying to basically nail around 6 minutes. watch that anomaly wegg! see how the dark grey reflection has a lighter grey in it? not sure what it is, but it should be a solid dark grey per my example. lol damn gather radius.

but that render looks better then kray otherwise.

also im seeing a weird halo around the LW logo on the green...why is that???

also can you please post your settings? i want to show render noobs settings so that people can use these as a reference...

stooch
02-16-2006, 02:33 AM
now keep in mind... we are just using 1 thread.... because thats all kray supports at the moment. so quite possibly, messiah has the fastest GI on the market. tomorrow i will unleash all 4 threads and see how fast/quality we can get.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 03:36 AM
I think the problem is. . . the higher the Gather Radius. . . the more it starts trasitioning from good looking GI to an ambience with a color that is retty much an average of all the walls. And thats why your getting the glow under the balls.

Man those grey stripes are funky.

I wonder if the Ray Depth have something to do with it.

opera
02-16-2006, 11:49 AM
Hey Wegg don't push me !!!
I don't have my dongle yet !

I will kick your a$$ , when I will get my version !
limited size: render only in 320/200 with the demo.
unable to save too !

1 week to wait ... (will be mailed today or tomorrow from PMG).

But yes good result ! ... I had fast result too ( with montecarlo).

advice for everyone: don't use large sample ( ie: 50 or 100 ) use tiny value (2 - 5 ) it depends of the size of your scene and you resulotion of course ...

How to find the good size ? my tip:
put 100 photon
put 10 for sample size
put 10 for gathering...

now counts the dots, play with the sample size ...
when it's done add more photon.
This way , you will undertsand how photon have a relation with smaple size ( then Quality and realism !!)


About the Shadows: to have radiosity in the shadow, add depth : 3 or 4 (that's enough) (depth = bouncing light).

to reduce the noise, add more GI sample ( ie: 2 or 3 ) (higher value= less noise, more definition)

as Wegg said: use the R antialias method (better for GI) ... to find the good tolerence number, render a sharp edge (use value under 0,1 ) 0,1 is too high ! (somehing like 0.08, you can go under for better result)
Antialias level at 2 minimum (keep the filter at 1.5 ... don't use 1.0 or you will get sharp pixels)

sampling your "area" shadows at 20 is too much ... 8 or 10 must be enough ...
check your raytracing depth ( 2 bouces are enough to see reflection on the sphere with a value of 0.5)


What's next ?

calm down the GI instensity to 0.9
change the white diffuse material(floor) 1.0 to 0.9 or 0.8....
change the spread of the light and it's intensity too ...

following thoses advices you will get fast result ...
I get good result less of 1 mn 30 with v2.2a. (320/200)

but don't fake too much to speed up your rendering: more you tweak, less it looks like radiosity ( check corner edge, color bleeding in shadows, check large white area too ... to make a good balance bewtween speed and quality)

Wish to help more (sharing file),but I need a dongle !:)

EDIT:

reformated the text a bit for a better comprehension (read it again in case of)
Use Ram (not file chunk) to speed up you render
put half of the size available in your computer ie: you have 2 giga of ram put 1024.

To stooch: to reduce the green halo, you need to touche your material ( a smaller diffuse value ie: 0.9 or 0.8)

And it's good to share the setup, but it willnot be the "magic" values for everything. It depends of the size of the scenes and details ( test an other scene with smaller details on objects ... the scene may need smaller radius sample, more photon, less GI,etc... )
the setup shared will be the good values for scene like this one only )

stooch
02-16-2006, 03:06 PM
hmm.
rendering at half rez isnt a good way to judge in this case.

when you double the resolution, you actually quadruple the number of pixels.... so dont jump to conclusions just yet.

also what halo are you talking about? I got rid of all anomalies on the last 5:20 test.


FYI all tests are done with 1 thread, 1 chunk, ram chunks enabled. not sure if these settings transfer with my project file though. got another render coming up shortly.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 03:28 PM
I wasn't able to improve on your renderings in any way. Personally I think Kary has one up on us in how it is able to keep those darks under the balls. I'm able to get those darks if I up my Photons and decrease my Gather Radius but of course. . . that ups the render time. There is no use doing GI if it doesn't keep the little cracks and details dark. Lets hope pmG has a look at our tests and figures out a solution.

sadicus
02-16-2006, 04:11 PM
Here is a render with the default settings supplied with the scene:
Total Render Time:00:08:21
2.13GHz
2xAthlon MP2800+
1GB RAM

stooch
02-16-2006, 04:32 PM
I figured out the anomaly and why it happens.

Those weird shading errors that show up are caused by a combination of GI radius, GI gather count and GI photons.

Basically, the more photons you use, the more finely the scene is "peppered" by them (think of dick cheney).

Your gather radius is the maximum distance messiah will look for a photon sample from a specific sample point, so if you didnt use enough photons overall, and set a high GI gather count, then messiah will start to get progressively farther away until it hits your maximum gather radius. the problem here is that if you have too few photon samples, it will start to sample things you dont want sampled. such as extremely bright objects or reflections, averaging that into your surface shows up as a weird white shape.

so you either have to

A) increase the overall photon count to make sure the sample distance doesnt get out of hand.
B) decrease the GI gather radius, which will allow more noise.
C) reduce the GI gather count - which will reduce accuracy

Wegg
02-16-2006, 04:34 PM
So your saying the trick is. . . to decrease your gather count and the artifacts will go away?

stooch
02-16-2006, 04:36 PM
So your saying the trick is. . . to decrease your gather count and the artifacts will go away?

to preserve quality, i would start by increasing photon count. for more speed, i would decrease gather radius, but you might start running into noise.

But there is more to it!

so lets say you decreased the GI photons to get alot of speed and found the sweet spot for your gather radius/gather count..... now is the time to start playing with GI samples! lol. fun stuff.

oh and by the way, you know the halo around the logos in your render?

the halo is there because its averaging the Red wall on the left, the ceiling on top and the blue wall all the way in the middle of the green wall. making what appears as a halo. thats a clear indicator that your GI gather radius is too high.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 04:53 PM
Mine? Dude I set mine to like. . . 3.

We should be doing this in IRC. . .

Wegg
02-16-2006, 04:57 PM
http://www.eggprops.com/%7Eeggington/RenderTests/3.png
http://www.eggprops.com/%7Eeggington/RenderTests/300.png

Going from 3 to 300 removed the artifacts in the cube and introduced them into the sphere. I really think this is some kind of bug. 3000 looks exactly the same as 300.

stooch
02-16-2006, 05:06 PM
try reducing the GI gather count. did you get the latest project file from the zipped file i provided? because the back wall is non planar from the first link i made that also affects things.

also you are using a tremendous amount of photons. i dont think you need that many. probably around 300k

overall its a ballance of the 3. it has to be a happy medium of photons, radius and count.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 05:11 PM
The more photons you use. . . the darker the shadows and the more accurate it looks. It may not make much of a difference in this scene but when I use it elsewhere it does. Adjusting the Gather Count does nothing. I tried it at 1 and 10,000.

stooch
02-16-2006, 05:12 PM
heh heh. it does affect time though. i think you will be surprised with my next render. :)

stooch
02-16-2006, 05:29 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1504-1/Image005.jpg
5:22

Look ma, no anomalies!


one question though.... the render looked great, the shadows where smooth as hell and i was like daaamn. thats looking good. but then at the very end. as a last step, it just grained it all up??? WTF??? whatever that feature is, id like to turn it off.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 05:35 PM
Those shadows are pretty close to being called "bad" though stooch. And that "enhanced" AA is always horrible. Its just a big blur pass at the end. Do that in post if you need it. Not my cuppa tea. It is cool how fast that is rendering. . . but if you look in the ball's reflection. . . you can see the wall the camera is looking through is grey when it should be white like the floor from all the GI in the room. You haven't really removed the artifact. . . . Just hidden it a little.

stooch
02-16-2006, 06:07 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1507-1/Image006.jpg
4:21 note the difference... why the noise???

stooch
02-16-2006, 06:09 PM
Those shadows are pretty close to being called "bad" though stooch. And that "enhanced" AA is always horrible. Its just a big blur pass at the end. Do that in post if you need it. Not my cuppa tea. It is cool how fast that is rendering. . . but if you look in the ball's reflection. . . you can see the wall the camera is looking through is grey when it should be white like the floor from all the GI in the room. You haven't really removed the artifact. . . . Just hidden it a little.

no its removed.. why should the wall be bright if it isnt directly facing the light source?? the floor is facing the light thats why its brightest...

the example from kray and LW are using an area light btw. this is with a spot light.

Wegg
02-16-2006, 06:18 PM
Spotlights in Messiah work exactly the same as area lights in Lightwave. I have tested this multiple times.

Look at the renderings from all the other programs. The back wall is white.

edit* The noise you are seeing in the shadow is because you decreased your threshold on the AA. When it is too high it starts garbling up shadows. You went from .05 to .02.

Taron333
02-16-2006, 06:31 PM
I just slept about an hour and only woke up from some f%$&#ng donation call ("..our poor policemen, the government ain't interested in them, so can you foreigner please give us some money to get them their donats and let them give you some more parking tickets?")...ehm...what...what am I doing, what's going on here? Oh, render nonsense?! I have no idea what this is you've discovered down there (HAHAHA...HA....ha...I mean in the thread), but it looks entertaining. I'll see if you guys have posted that scene somewhere so I don't have to recreate a similar scenario. As for enhanced, I never use it, because effectively not only does it look like some strange blur pass, but it also screws up the supersampling on noisey areas! So your AA level may have had the perfect settings to eliminate most or all of the grain, but as the enhanced kicks in, it takes the first coarse part somehow into account and comes up with this....bpflrrrrbt...blurp....crx...screwed up blurry granula memory of the past...nah, I don't need it either. Instead, this is a great reminder to continue with this age old argument that we've had from like...hmm...let's say day one of this pretty concept. There are some thing about the enhanced mode, that do make sense. But I'm incapable of explaining them, really, judging by what else it does. Not to mention that in the "hidden" (hit F3) area, you can see that you can adjust the range in which enhanced will sample around each pixel to come to it's weighted results! The larger this range, the more it becomes soft. It's actually not a blur, but the larger you make that area, the more it really acts like one.

That gi error?! I don't even know what the heck that is? Something funky with photons? That's a possibility.
Also, if you do not use the photons (I hardly ever use them, actually) 16 GI samples brings you to a super high sampling count 256 different color intensity levels the radiosity can detect. Going higher than that is almost certainly exaggerated. If that doesn't result in nice renders, then something else is funky in the scene, most likely. Making 4 bounces, I think is rather insane....although it does make sense in a simple scene like that...it might even need them. I'll have to check it out anyway.

So this is really all very interesting! Still wonder what that funny "bug" actually is. Some wicked gathering or distribution thingy with the photons I think...no idea yet.

SO THANX! :wip:

Taron

stooch
02-16-2006, 07:01 PM
hmmmm, whatever the problem may be... having photons working is pertty important IMO. the time savings are huge, even with GI depth of 4. the reason why im using 4 is because Kray is set to 4 bounces.

opera
02-16-2006, 07:21 PM
half resolution is bad :/
but I use the messiah demo version :)

That's why I can't play with you :/

stooch
02-16-2006, 07:35 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1510-1/Image007.jpg

21:36

Gi samples 5, depth 2. no photons.

Taron333
02-16-2006, 07:51 PM
AA at which level?

I need to check out that scene...and make coffee...no, coffee first! :surprised

stooch
02-16-2006, 07:57 PM
Adaptive SS
AA level 4 Threshold .02
AA pattern regular
size 1.5

Taron333
02-16-2006, 08:00 PM
hmmmm, whatever the problem may be... having photons working is pertty important IMO. the time savings are huge, even with GI depth of 4. the reason why im using 4 is because Kray is set to 4 bounces.

...or an answer to this one first...

Man, I hope you weren't reading like I wouldn't care about Photons. Photons are kick as$, only that in case of Gi it takes a lot of careful fine tuning to understand what the best settings are and they are never universal. Each scene may have it's own sweetspot/numbers.
But my particular interest in Photons starts somewhere else, not directly related to Gi, but intstead for other shading needs! It's something Fori and I have been thinking about for a long time now, but never had a chance to implement it so far. Hopefully soon we'll get to do that so I can show you what I mean.

Another thing that actually opera was talking about and that we all have heard over the years is the whole "baking" issue, actually. I would want to go one step farther and actually "abuse" that baking concept right away to improve upon bounces for the light! So in the first pass it would bake down the first illumination, second bounce simply reads the first baked pass...and so forth...no more extra computations. That should speed it up dramatically! We shall see...if too much memory was needed, it could potentially end up actually becoming slower...one never knows.:shrug: Not to mention the mapping for the objects...ehh....well.... we would have some internal UV mapping that probably ends up acting kind of like Zbrush's GUV stuff. Ahm...I think I'm just thinking out loud here... :rolleyes:

Anyway...good stuff here! Thanx a lot!

stooch
02-16-2006, 08:10 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1512-1/Image008.jpg
5:34 shadow reflections are too blotchy.

any ideas why the shadows look good on the ground but no in the reflections?

Wegg
02-16-2006, 08:29 PM
yea the shadows that are reflected don't seem to get as much attention with the AA.

Its so cool that your doing this Stooch. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one playing with the renderer. :-/

edit* shadows seem to get their own little post/blur effect applied to them before the real AA kicks in. But that post blur doesn't happen to the reflections. So the higher quality you set the shadow the less it will look bad in the reflection. (just guessing here though)

stooch
02-16-2006, 08:47 PM
did everyone notice that the NO PHOTON render that took over 20 minutes has a much more accurate back wall? its not as dark as the photon version...bug?

Joscci
02-16-2006, 08:48 PM
Its so cool that your doing this Stooch. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one playing with the renderer. :-/

I agree with Wegg -- It's pretty cool you're looking into this. I just recently started playing with the renderer part of the messiah, as I normally focused on the animation portion of it, so your findings so far are pretty interesting and informative as well.

Your latest render appears to be the best looking so far. I too, I'm interested in seeing why the reflected shadows aren't getting softened as the rest of the shadows are. All your messiah test renders so far have been showing this phenomena. Hopefully there's an easy solution to this.

Cheers.

stooch
02-16-2006, 08:54 PM
thanks! im glad this is useful, otherwise it wouldnt be as rewarding.

im doing all these tests to see how messiah would fit into my pipeline. although my biggest concern is the lack of renderfarm support. IE, we are ordering render mule and i would hate to be forced to use butterfly net render just because of messiah..

has anyone compared rendermule vs butterfly? any thoughts or preference?

also, is there a way to use batch scripts like with LWSN in messiah?

Wegg
02-16-2006, 09:05 PM
It took a few years but Paul Lord and I finally got Messiah working with Butterfly. I really do think it is a good solution for both Messiah and Lightwave. For a little while there was a render.exe file available that was a command line renderer but it isn't on their FTP site any more. You may want to ask CHRIS REID about it.

svintaj
02-16-2006, 09:22 PM
any ideas why the shadows look good on the ground but no in the reflections?
No but you should try to set the shadow quality to 1, and instead add more AA.
I am using the Halton AA at size 1 and get good results!

/ Svante

stooch
02-16-2006, 09:36 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1515-1/Image009.jpg
4:19 not bad for the speed. i cheated though, im using 4 threads...

stooch
02-16-2006, 10:02 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1518-1/Image010.jpg
2:58 @ 4 threads.

You know PMG guys, if you can figure out the noisy reflections and the dark back wall (compared to non photon render) you probably have the fastest GI solution on the market... this is pretty damn fast.

Joscci
02-16-2006, 10:06 PM
Impressive...! Well done, Stooch! :buttrock:

Come on, pmG... get the ball rollin'.

Cheers.

Taron333
02-16-2006, 10:35 PM
Okidoki! Sounds like a good idea to me! :wavey:

:beer:

Taron

stooch
02-16-2006, 10:41 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1521-1/Image011.jpg

This is a LW render using Interpolated radiosity with 10x30 sampling, 4 bounces, .3 tolerance, 30mm spacing. I also used 30% motion blur to smooth things a bit.

This render took 5 minutes, however its hard to tell that this even has radiosity, the undersides of the balls are pretty much black and the ceiling is getting very little light. Very little color is being transferred from the walls as well.

opera
02-17-2006, 01:25 AM
Hey Taron !

"The shadow map is a snapshot of the light's viewport, which is a 2d projection of the light's clip space. In order to perform the texture projection, we will use OpenGL's EYE_LINEAR texture coordinate generation, which generates texture coordinates for a vertex based upon its eye-space position."


Can't you code a node shader ( Material tree), to blur reflected shadow ?
ie: there is a reflection blur parameter ...
can't we imagine node filter ( 2D filter - Post filter) to smooth the "shadow pass" and composite them for the final render...

In my use of renderman: there are a tips I found

1) "First pass"
Render the scene with "Lights" point of view (to generate shadows maps)
Shadows are saved to a picture file ( for each light).

2) "Blur the shadows"
You can set a blur factor to smooth shadows egde ( to have diffuse edge) equivalent of 2D blur.

3) "composinting during render"
the "baked" shadows are "remapped" on the scene (similar to a camera projection) on the scene from the camera point of view.

4) "final render"
You can finaly render the shadow.


Of course in renderman, I was do it in 2 step (first pass to bake all light shadows to picture file), second pass to render camera view with baked shadow into scene.

You can do it a hidden pass (user friendly ) to do this step including a node to put the strength of blur connected to the light shadow "input".

I will try to find some tests....

the limitations of the techniques: ( "floor contact" could be too blurred = flying object if the blur is too strenght)

here is a link of a LW plugin doing this "similar method with a "post filter" pass. During the render, the shadow pass is stored in a buffer and blured in post.

here is a link to a LW plugin (please read all the page, very interesting benchmark and technique description):
http://www.evasion3d.com/sd_lw_prodinfo.html

"what you'll be able to do with Shadow Designer. In this case, several shadow were layers used to add variation into lighting and to emphasize the color bleeding as well."
"unlimited number of shadow maps
global (per shadow map) and local (per surface) settings
envelopes, interactive help
interactive, realtime preview
automatic shadow map saving option (all lw formats)
color gradients, allowing original shadow and lighting styles
global and local object exclusion lists
"
the gallery to see result
http://www.evasion3d.com/sd_lw_gallery.html


an other tip (or features ;))
you can use this shadow pass to "fake caustics", by coloring shadows of each object.
http://www.happy-digital.com/images/cowstic/3balls.jpg



technique:
here is a tutorial in a better english to explain the technique :)
http://www.animallogic.com/research/mayaman/onlinedocs/tutorials/SoftShadow.html

technical paper in case of:
http://www.devmaster.net/articles/shadow_techniques/
http://www.dotcsw.com/doc/softshadows.html


cheers!

stooch
02-17-2006, 01:38 AM
hmm, i didnt see any examples of reflected shadows on that website. although its pretty interesting.

i think pmg are almost there anyway, whatever they are doing to the floor shadow just needs to be applied to the reflected shadow. maybe store the reflected shadows in a buffer and perform the AA on them separatelly.

opera
02-17-2006, 03:54 AM
hey stooch,

don't be so nervous :)

of course you don't see any reflection shadow exemple....
I did use thoses links (or pictures) to explain "how to do it" by coding ...
Nothing you can do if you are not a developer :)

Question was: How to make a workaround to have nice softed shadows.( I don't know how Messiah is coded) but my technique may not work with reflected shadows because the shadow in the sphere : is a mirror of the shadow on the floor.

So if messiah can calculate the shadows, bake it and remap it in the scene (frome the light's "point of view"........ and render the raytracing reflections after the processed map
-> you will be able to see soft reflected shadows.

I need to know how messiah calculate the reflections...(because as you have noticed that the shadows on the floor are soft.... and sharp in reflections ... ).

I just hope that messiah doesn't render "twice" the shadow !!! ... (of course you need to calculate the boucing rays.... but there is an other way to do it than the actual methode...) with my few knowledge of messiah, I just can speculate.(I don't have "technical" paper of the render engine)

But to give you a picture to illustrate my words : imagine a kind of "reflection blur value" to afect only the shadows (selective on raytraced objects and on the floor in post process) ... (of course it's a picture -you have to imagine .. )

cheers!

MoodyB
02-17-2006, 06:56 AM
Stooch, could you post a link to either the original LW scene, or the forum thread where you found it please ?

AlexK
02-17-2006, 06:56 AM
Another thing that actually opera was talking about and that we all have heard over the years is the whole "baking" issue, actually. I would want to go one step farther and actually "abuse" that baking concept right away to improve upon bounces for the light! So in the first pass it would bake down the first illumination, second bounce simply reads the first baked pass...and so forth...no more extra computations.!
Baking is a thing that I really miss in Messiah. This sounds like it might come in the future. Do I understand this right Taron? That would kick ass!! :thumbsup:

Labuzz
02-17-2006, 10:33 AM
Backing! Yesssss WHEN? this Year ?

stooch
02-17-2006, 03:46 PM
Stooch, could you post a link to either the original LW scene, or the forum thread where you found it please ?

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36461&highlight=kray+box

try page 57.

Opera. Its not that im nervous, its the fact that i dont think your idea will work. I think what is already being used by PMG to smooth the shadows, would be much easier to apply to reflections - without resorting to baking or shadow cheating solutions.

JoeCosman
02-17-2006, 05:20 PM
it looks like when Messiah sprays the photons around(like in monte carlo) reflection pass recieves the uninterpolated result. when you filter those shadow hits and interpolate between them to smooth out, they never show up interpolated in the reflection, because the reflection pass has already been made.

i.e. the reflection does not constitute actual geometry that has photon hits, therefore nothing happens to the pixels on the reflection.

if the shadows were baked back onto the scene, then the reflections would show the filtered effect, because the reflection pass is looking at the already filtered shadow.

then again, somewhere in this thread, you all probably said that, so I'm just agreeing with you.
:-)

fine, I'll download the test scene and help.

-JoeC

MoodyB
02-17-2006, 07:20 PM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36461&highlight=kray+box

try page 57.



Thanks, found it.

Here's what I've managed to get so far. Can't upload atm, as my ftp space is down, so it's a 300x300 image

2min46sec to render on an AthlonXP 3200 ( at 300x300, not 600x600 )

MoodyB
02-17-2006, 08:03 PM
Here's the project file if anyone wants to look at the settings, although I've just noticed that if I render it at 600x600, the colour of the rear wall that's reflected in the chrome spheres' changes to a peachy colour, instead of the green / blue colour it was at 300x300. And if you render it at 150x150, the wall / reflection turns blue :hmm:

Anyone have any idea why that's happening ?

stooch
02-17-2006, 08:49 PM
you know that i linked the project file in the first post right?

opera
02-17-2006, 10:18 PM
Hi,

Thank JOECOSMAN !

You resumed all my text in few words !
Next time I will contact you before posting !
lol :)

stooch:
It's not cheating ... it the way a raytracer or scanline(Reyes algorithm) engine works ! You must bake or render (if you don't like the word "bake") the shadow before to render the "reflected ray" or final rendering process.
You Must bake, you don't have to do it, because it's an hidden process to the user.
If you want to understand how shadows are rendered please read this.
http://www.groovyvis.com/other/raytracing/shadows.html

here is a copy-paste of a sentence:
"
One technique that is sometimes use to accelerate shadow rays is caching..... Information about which object is stored."



I did explain how to post process them to make them smoother before the ray-cast computing.

Again, nothing you can handle if you don't change the behave of the render engine (internal change) to calculate reflected shadows.
No parameters in GUI to fix that.

+ Final gathering ( like in Mentalray is an interpolation process of the "sample rays dots", it's not evaluated in the calcul of reflections) to correct that you need to use a lot of photons when it's not necessary....less phtons could be used if there are no reflections.

Let Fori and Taron code that for us ;)

stooch
02-17-2006, 10:27 PM
im not here to argue with you, the purpose of this thread is render tests....so post em if you got em :)

MoodyB
02-17-2006, 10:50 PM
you know that i linked the project file in the first post right?

Yes :) I just posted mine in case anyone wanted to know what settings I used, that's all.

Taron333
02-18-2006, 02:37 AM
Baking is a thing that I really miss in Messiah. This sounds like it might come in the future. Do I understand this right Taron? That would kick ass!! :thumbsup:

Well, baking does have its advantages without a doubt. Especially after I have remembered all the ideas I used to have years and years ago in regards to that. But nowadays I really think it becomes less and less interesting in terms of GI, because the machines are getting so fast that a compromise of this sort is not only not so necessary anymore, but could even expose old weaknesses of renderings. This sort of thing is actually mostly then interesting if nothing in the scene is actually moving or ment to cause a response in the illumination of everything. It's really a tough one to argue out, because there are many different ways in which baking can be used. THere are additional questions as to what is it going to bake to, which is one of them great and funny questions. Are we generating our own UVmaps for objects that don't have one, how many objects could this actually handle. Should it be really as simple as making a seperate type of "tool" that can be called to bake a single object like it is or at least used to be in Lightwave for instance?! Hmmm....man...that should really be easy. Hmm...hmmm..hmmm...if that's all you want, picking an object, specifying which UVmap to use, telling it what format to save the image at and where....yeah, I think that's really something we could do. I was already thinking a lot further and forgot about that "simple little" thingy. I already envisioned a concept that would allow to automatically generate a whole set of UVmaps for all objects in the scene or selected groups of objects and have them bake at the first rendered frame, saving out all of them to a specified location and that simple rock and roll. That system could suggest another type of photon solution by instead of them using the baked maps...hehehe....ah..the crazy ideas. Just ideas, but fun to share. That's kind of how it's like when we work, actually. We get crazy ideas and occasionally even try them out. How fun it would be, if that was all we had to do..hehehe....darned. :rolleyes:

ANyway, we will toss the whole concept of adding a standart baking function into the mix and see what comes out of it. No promisses on how soon it would come, but I'm speaking in favor of it. We'll see. Wouldn't it be endlessly better, if it wasn't necessary at all? Superfast rendering that would making baking nearly slower?!? HAHAHA....now I'm really just teasing, but that's what I personally would wish for a lot more! :bounce:

stooch
02-18-2006, 03:41 AM
for me baking reeks of compromise. you can clearly get the shadows on the floor perfectly smooth without baking in a reasonable amount of time, so whats the point of restricting animation?

how about rendering the shadow on a separate buffer before any reflections are even contemplated. once the shadow is generated and smoothed, then perform the raytracing for the reflections/refractions.

now here is the really useful part.

once you are done rendering...dont discard the shadow buffer! compositors would absolutely love to get just the shadows as a separate pass...

AlexK
02-18-2006, 07:47 AM
Should it be really as simple as making a seperate type of "tool" that can be called to bake a single object like it is or at least used to be in Lightwave for instance?! Hmmm....man...that should really be easy. Hmm...hmmm..hmmm...if that's all you want, picking an object, specifying which UVmap to use, telling it what format to save the image at and where....yeah, I think that's really something we could do.
Actually that is exactly what I wanna do. :twisted:

For the panther I did a little trick to speed up fur rendering (cut the rendertimes by 50%), but it requires baked surface shading for the panthers geometry - in animation. I had to do it in Maya. And even there I had to write my own MEL script, because baking animated sequences isn't supported. :hmm:

Now of course it would have been WAY nicer to just select my panther geometry in Messiah and hit the "BAKE" button. ;) And even when Messiah comes with fur this baking trick might still be worth it - saving 50% rendertime is a great argument I think.

once you are done rendering...dont discard the shadow buffer! compositors would absolutely love to get just the shadows as a separate pass...

As I am a comper by heart I can only agree.

ThomasHelzle
02-18-2006, 12:53 PM
but then at the very end. as a last step, it just grained it all up??? WTF???
This problem with "enhanced" was already fixed in one version of messiah (sorry, can't remember the patch), but reappeared in the latest versions - I was under the impression that some old code slipped back in?

Those advanced baking ideas sound like the lightmaps in Mental Ray 3.4.
Basically they allow you to render maps of a branch of a rendertree into image files with a chosen resolution to disk with a special node and use that maps in that same rendertree from then on. The map can be set to be created only once or overwritten every time (and sure it is a sequence for animations).
This allows for a lot of things that are hard to implement into procedural shaders (like for instance a texture blur) as well as completely user defined on-the-fly baking.
It is also the base of some of the new fast sub surface scattering and translucency shaders.
Very nice concept indeed!

I also wouldn't forget about the games industry when talking about baking!

Cheers

Joscci
02-18-2006, 02:20 PM
one question though.... the render looked great, the shadows where smooth as hell and i was like daaamn. thats looking good. but then at the very end. as a last step, it just grained it all up??? WTF??? whatever that feature is, id like to turn it off.

You know, I was playing with the messiah renderer last night, performing my own tests (basic teapot on a plane with an area light) and saw this strage occurence with the 'enhanced' AA mode. I saw the same problem, shadows are being rendered nice and soft, and at the last step, boom, it grained it up, when instead, I was hoping for some further smoothing of shadows.

Even though the 'enhanced' mode tends to soften the render, I found it to be kind of pleasant, especially at high resolutions. Kind of gives the soft film-like look, and it also gives a nic(er) AA at low AA Levels and low Shadow Quality values, so it is kind of dissappointing for the AA to improve for the geometry, and for the shadows to de-grade instead.

Of course, the solution is to use the Adaptive SS method instead, but then I have to use higher Level values of SS and Shadow Quality values to achieve the same (or similar) results.

Weird, and I hope this is looked at by pmG.

Anyways, just thought I'd share that with you guys. :)

Cheers.

MoodyB
02-18-2006, 02:50 PM
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/747/messiahradboxslowsettings8fb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/8623/messiahradboxslow3bw.png (http://imageshack.us)

Took 14min 11secs to render ( AthlonXp 3200 ). I had also turned on emmision for the luminous panel in the roof - luminosity@2, emission@1

The reflected radiosity is better on the cubes. But on the spheres reflection, the radiosity on the back wall appears to be back to front - slight red tint beside blue wall edge / blue tint beside red wall edge.

Sil3
02-18-2006, 03:05 PM
Even though the 'enhanced' mode tends to soften the render, I found it to be kind of pleasant, especially at high resolutions. Kind of gives the soft film-like look, and it also gives a nic(er) AA at low AA Levels and low Shadow Quality values, so it is kind of dissappointing for the AA to improve for the geometry, and for the shadows to de-grade instead.




Ya know what, i love the Enhanced mode render look, simply love it, like u said it looks like film, soft... and the AA is infact a lot better in this mode than with Adaptive, where i always get AA artifacts no mater what settings i use.

stooch
02-18-2006, 05:09 PM
[/url]

[url="http://imageshack.us/"] (http://imageshack.us/)

Took 14min 11secs to render ( AthlonXp 3200 ). I had also turned on emmision for the luminous panel in the roof - luminosity@2, emission@1

The reflected radiosity is better on the cubes. But on the spheres reflection, the radiosity on the back wall appears to be back to front - slight red tint beside blue wall edge / blue tint beside red wall edge.

Very nice! the back wall isnt dark anymore!

MoodyB
02-18-2006, 05:25 PM
Very nice! the back wall isnt dark anymore!

Cheers.

Pity about the render time though. There's no contact shadows under the spheres and the faint GI reflection of the luminous roof light ( onto the back wall in the spheres' reflections ) is also missing. You can get these back with massive photon numbers ( and changing the roof light back to a panel light ), but then the 'dark back wall / iffy GI reflections on cubes ' problems come back.

Upped the GI Intensity to 1.75, so this one's a bit brighter - more like the original Kray render.

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/8914/messiahradbox0pl.png (http://imageshack.us)

Wegg
02-18-2006, 05:44 PM
I'm sorry but this is pretty close to having no GI and just upping the ambience of the scene. You have to get those darks under the balls in order for it to be a valid solution.

MoodyB
02-18-2006, 06:32 PM
I'm sorry but this is pretty close to having no GI and just upping the ambience of the scene. You have to get those darks under the balls in order for it to be a valid solution.

Which can be done, at the cost of the reflections screwing up, just like the tests that yoursefl and stooch have already posted.

I guess stooch could be right, in that there's possibly a bug in the renderer when photon mapping+GI+reflective surfaces are used together ?

Labuzz
02-18-2006, 06:51 PM
About baking in messiah. Should I say again that baking is really needed for 3d real time ( as well as weight maps ) ?
Have you take a look at microwave : http://www.evasion3d.com/mw_lw_prodinfo.html

This is the kind of features that I am expecting. In the first place you can project ( and theres a lots of options for control ) one object ( High res ) onto another ( low ). of course no need to worry about topology...
Another cool thing is that you can "build" ( with 2 point polys ) your camera projection.
This tool is really great and I am using it all the time.
Again I would like to use messiah but I need some keys features.

Sorry if its off topic.

MoodyB
02-18-2006, 09:06 PM
Guys, it might be worth trying Hybrid instead of Monte Carlo, as it can render the reflected back wall at the correct colour when using a low gather radius, which is needed to get a contact shadow under the spheres.

Just watch the GI Intensity though, as it'll probably need to be around 0.1 or less. If not, then the image will be washed out. It seems to depend on how many photons you're using.

stooch
02-19-2006, 04:45 AM
well i guess im not done playing with settings on this scene then. Lets see how far the shadows can be pushed (afterall there is still 2 minutes to play with to match time with kray)

To me, the biggest problem is the sloppy AA on the reflections, in the Car WIP that im working on, its also showing up as noise when reflecting HDR.

MoodyB
02-19-2006, 11:01 AM
Forget Hybrid, Photon Mapping with no GI Noise Reduction looks the favourite. Still a bit blotchy, but at least we're now getting a contact shadow under the larger sphere and it only too 6min01sec to render at 600x600 :)

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3572/photonnoginrsettings3rg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5056/messiahradboxphotonnonr7sq.png (http://imageshack.us)

Just keep in mind that when you increase the photon count, or change the gather count, you'll need to tweak the GI Intensity

stooch
02-19-2006, 11:34 PM
interesting. the ceiling is horrible but nice to see the settings though :)

Labuzz
02-20-2006, 01:50 PM
some tests. This is what I haver so far. Very hard to maintain details(corners). I have try also with hybrid witout success.
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=giroomv0015iy.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=giroomv0015iy.jpg)

Labuzz
02-20-2006, 02:05 PM
the project file.

Joscci
02-20-2006, 03:09 PM
some tests. This is what I haver so far. Very hard to maintain details(corners). I have try also with hybrid witout success.
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=giroomv0015iy.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=giroomv0015iy.jpg)

- What's happening in the TOP image, and why is it so washed out?
- The bottom one looks pretty blotchy, and appears to lack some contrast and even true GI effect. The lighting appears to be constant, instead of emanating entirely through the entrance (or window...?) -- It looks more like constant Ambient illumination rather than GI.
- Finally, it is very hard to tell what the render times and what your current settings are for the test that you've made as for some reason, your image is getting distorted.

Cheers.

MoodyB
02-20-2006, 06:10 PM
The lighting appears to be constant, instead of emanating entirely through the entrance (or window...?) -- It looks more like constant Ambient illumination rather than GI.


If the light emitting the photons is outside the mesh shining in, then the mesh needs to have double-sided turned on. Afaik, photons will only ' hit ' a polygon that has it's normal facing the photon. In Labuzz's image, the mesh was single-sided, which meant that the photons passed through the right-side wall, and then started bouncing around when they hit the floor / left wall poly normals.

stooch
02-21-2006, 04:30 PM
so i just did some more tests and confirmed that the anomalies seen in the renders:

- Dark back wall
- Weird shapes reflected in the cubes

are all caused by GI Noise Reduction. As soon as i disable it, the lighting behaves normally.

ThomasHelzle
02-21-2006, 05:03 PM
Maybe this is somehow connected with the Bug that gives you very weird results when you render scenes with GI Noise Reduction where the background can be seen?
I got everything from weird colours, dark lines on the horizon to awkward stripes on the groundplane etc. when using this combination.
Those problems combined with the fact that the current GI Noise Reduction eliminates almost exactly those details one looks for when using GI, kept me from using it completely.
I think something more adaptive would be cool, so that large plain areas get less photons/more smoothing and small things and corners get more photons and less blur.

With the current GI Noise Reduction (besides the Bugs) you would have to use an Ambient Occlusion shader on top of GI to get some detail back.

In the end, I always have fallen back to pure Monte Carlo with no GI-NR since I still like it's look the most. And I prefer reliability over speed. Photons always tend to flicker in animation anyway...
Almost all images in the AoN docs are rendered that way.

Cheers,

MoodyB
02-21-2006, 05:47 PM
so i just did some more tests and confirmed that the anomalies seen in the renders:

- Dark back wall
- Weird shapes reflected in the cubes

are all caused by GI Noise Reduction. As soon as i disable it, the lighting behaves normally.

It's more when using Monte Carlo + GI Noise Reduction, as GI NR can be used with Hybrid without getting the above the render errors.

stooch
02-21-2006, 05:57 PM
oh yeah, one thing that is really bothering me is the render time BS.

Can someone explain to me how the time is calculated?

I just did a render that claims it took 3:12, but i timed it separatelly and with GI pass its 5:50.

Why? is there a reson behind this?

MoodyB
02-21-2006, 06:04 PM
Maybe this is somehow connected with the Bug that gives you very weird results when you render scenes with GI Noise Reduction where the background can be seen?
I got everything from weird colours, dark lines on the horizon to awkward stripes on the groundplane etc. when using this combination.
Those problems combined with the fact that the current GI Noise Reduction eliminates almost exactly those details one looks for when using GI, kept me from using it completely.
I think something more adaptive would be cool, so that large plain areas get less photons/more smoothing and small things and corners get more photons and less blur.


An Adaptive NR method would be very welcome. In most of the Kray scenes I've been playing around in M:S with, you need a gather radius of around 0.1 - 0.5 to get any kind of detail in edges, under small objects, etc... Unfortunately M:S just can't seem to emit enough photons to allow this size of radius along with no blotches present in the final render - above 16,000,000 photons and M:S vanishes from my desktop.

Glad to see you're still hanging around out here Thomas :)

MoodyB
02-21-2006, 06:10 PM
oh yeah, one thing that is really bothering me is the render time BS.

Can someone explain to me how the time is calculated?

I just did a render that claims it took 3:12, but i timed it separatelly and with GI pass its 5:50.

Why? is there a reson behind this?

The final render time ignores the time taken to emit the photons on the first pass, although the timer in the corner of therender window does seem to display the proper render time. That is until it finishes rendering, when it then changes to match what appears in the command line,

stooch
02-21-2006, 06:33 PM
what timer? the only timer i see is the commmand line.

also, what is the reason for omitting the photon emission????????

mind boggling if you ask me. actually shady and not very respectable.


lol @ shady. pun not intended.

messiah needs to focus its shadiness on the shadows rather then the timer (seriously WTF).

MoodyB
02-21-2006, 07:01 PM
what timer? the only timer i see is the commmand line.


When your preview mode is set to 'viewport ', there's an ' elapsed time ' displayed in the bottom left corner. Ideally this should be displayed in the command line as well, especially in window / text mode, along with the render engine ' telling ' you what it's doing - emitting photons, calculating displacements, rendering, etc....


also, what is the reason for omitting the photon emission????????


No idea, probably just an oversight and not intentional.

Nando
02-21-2006, 08:23 PM
Ive been playing also with this scene and have gotten some good results, though yes time is very long on renders.

I managed to get rid of some of the shadow, and reflection speckles off via upping the AA samples over 8. I figured maybe we could do a low pass, and rub them out via AA.

another thing though ive been trying to bring the render time down via the radius and photon gather count, but as soon as i dont get the results im looking for I change settings and render. Now this is the part I hate if photons get emmitted and i didnt change that setting why do they have to get emmitted again?
Is there no photon caching option, so we wont have to wait for photon emmisions again, and again, and again.?.? LOL

;)

ThomasHelzle
02-21-2006, 08:42 PM
Nope, there isn't such a thing as caching in messiah - neither photons nor shadowmaps etc.

Makes you dream of something like this:
http://max.is-a-geek.com/Maxwell/ml.rar
While maxwell must be one of the slowest render options out there, powerful post-controls like this make "speed" a quite relative term... Especially for stills.
If this is taken further, you can shoot off a render with just basic settings overnight and then adjust brightness, light balance, which lights to use and maybe later on colour etc. in the morning...
And since maxwell allows for resuming a render you are very flexible with doing so.

Holy shit - we didn't even scratch the surface yet of what the future will bring in this area.

Best regards,

stooch
02-21-2006, 09:05 PM
well so far my experimentations highlighted great power in the renderer and also exposed some glaring flaws. I REALLY hope there is something coming out soon. and i mean SOON. with lw9, i sense a lack of attention towards messiah...

ThomasHelzle
02-21-2006, 10:47 PM
Yes, that is my concern too, but not as much limited to LW9:
When messiah:render was first announced at Siggraph 2000 (if I remember correctly), there was a big need for better renderers. The big packages internal renderers were not very exciting back then...(I think there was even an option announced to buy messiah:render as a standalone renderer)
But pmG wasn't the only company who smelled that at the time. Today we have Brazil, Vray, Final Render, Turtle and dozens of other renderers from free to expensive. Many of them are quite mature as of now and well integrated into the big packages.

When I did my first own render tests in early 2002 with the so called "advance" edition of messiah (some kind of open beta) for an article in a german CG-magazine, I came basically to the same conclusion as you have come to in 2006.
One of the results (The BeeMan is a model from Christophe Desse):

http://www.screendream.de/images/dp_just_dreaming_of_messiah.jpg

Heck, I saw great opportunities for messiah in architecture back then, since it did eat even big scenes in a fraction of the time LW needed... :shrug:

I would never have guessed, that journey would take that long.

Today I don't see a market for a renderer anymore. Maybe it can survive in it's niche as a character tool if some quite good, easy-to-dress and fast-to-render hair is added, but other than that?

How long can a tool be "promising"?

Cheers,

stooch
02-21-2006, 11:07 PM
we are about to find out.

ErwinZwart
02-24-2006, 10:21 PM
some tests. This is what I haver so far. Very hard to maintain details(corners). I have try also with hybrid witout success.
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=giroomv0015iy.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=giroomv0015iy.jpg)

here is your scene rendered in Kray:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/GI_roomEZpass1.png

this is what present Messiah does in a way, irradiance pass filtered. (Messiah does do direct light, so shadows, Kray doesn't in this pass)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/GI_roomEZpass2.png

is WITH final gathering rays, not present in Messiah.

BTW I did do the Kray renders in the first post of this topic, will get back on that soon here in this thread, I did some extensive render testing in Messiah and want to give a report of that to Fori and Taron and all thread readers.

------------------------------------------

Note from Wegg: Erwin is a regular over in the #Messiah3D channel on freenode. It was actually him and I that did the first Messiah Vs. Kray tests back in December. Very smart/experienced technical artist. Its nice to have his input.

Labuzz
02-25-2006, 09:50 AM
Very nice Erwin, tky ! Now we need some feedback from Taron and Fori to see if this can be adressed quickly.

Panikos
02-25-2006, 11:27 AM
Hi Erwin, its a pleasure to see you here.
I am anxious to see the upcoming messiah release, I have strong faith that will be very cool and worth the waiting.

Time to load/revise some old scenes and compare :)

Wegg
03-20-2006, 05:05 AM
http://www.eggprops.com/%7Eeggington/Messiah/2point4.png

Looks like the pmG guys fixed quite a few things in this 2.4 release. Look how clean the reflected shadows are! And no funky grey blotch on the reflected back wall!

Yay!

Joscci
03-21-2006, 01:21 AM
Funny enough, this particular Thread came into my mind the minute I heard of the 2.4 update. It's very nice to see the reflected shadow-shading problem addressed.

Good stuff, Wegg.

Thanks, pmG! :thumbsup:

stooch
03-21-2006, 01:22 AM
very nice! what about blotchy shadows? how long did the render take?

Wegg
03-21-2006, 02:29 AM
15 minutes.

I didn't really spend any time trying to optimize it. I was just more interested in seeing if what Taron said was true about them having fixed those problems. I can't wait to see more tests done. I think as more people use Messiah. . . and show us what they have done, the more the programmers can tighten up the renderer to be more and more useful.

Taron333
03-21-2006, 02:41 AM
15 minutes.

I didn't really spend any time trying to optimize it. I was just more interested in seeing if what Taron said was true about them having fixed those problems. I can't wait to see more tests done. I think as more people use Messiah. . . and show us what they have done, the more the programmers can tighten up the renderer to be more and more useful.

You COULDN'T BE MORE RIGHT! That's totally the case! Not to mention that I'd personally love to see more things done! But it helps a GREaT deal to see and hear what others do! After I've presented you with the tutorials, things should be a lot more clear and hopefully get everyone started to play with it more deeply!

THANX so MUCH, Weggy, that's just fantastic! You made my day already and I'm honestly thrilled to see such a fast pick up on our update! We are staying as tight as it's humanly possible to promote exclusively the stuff we are actually delivering. It's so easy to get carried away with "possible developments" and end up biting the teeth out on things that grow to be too complicated to do in time. Instead, we're doing everything we focus on until it shows to function well! That's a tough promiss to keep, because challenges sometimes rise out of nowhere during development, which make a specific feature hard to finish up, but I simply see that I don't share my excitement with you before I know you get to receive the results to really share the success with us! ...hmm...why am I holding speeches again...hmm... ...hmm... it's because I'm excited to see you put those new things to use already, even if it's "just" a bug-fix (or optimization, diplomatically speaking) you've demonstrated. It's a great deal! So.... THANX AGAIN! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Taron

stooch
03-21-2006, 03:03 AM
hmmmm, i guess we shall have to see how much more speed we can squeeze out of it. as long as the shadow blotchiness is fixed, i can see pushing it even more then before. of course im at home right now and i dont have a license of messiah for home use, but ill do some more tests tomorrow.

Also im having a problem with connecting messiah to lw because in the process of beta testing i erased the messiah connection plugin and ive sent an email to pmg tech support and still havent gotten it resolved, i installed the latest version and i dont see a connection in it either, its just all max and c4d stuff??? is that normal?

ThomasHelzle
03-21-2006, 09:24 AM
It is called messiahLW.p and resides in the "messiah" folder of 2.4, not under "connections"...

stooch
03-21-2006, 11:06 AM
It is called messiahLW.p and resides in the "messiah" folder of 2.4, not under "connections"...

i tried adding the plugin into layout and i get an error.

dobermunk
03-21-2006, 12:49 PM
Check ut the section i n the docs. You have to leave the .p file where it is - don't relocate it it in the plug-ins folder...

stooch
03-21-2006, 03:17 PM
doh, pardon my dumbassery.

stooch
03-21-2006, 03:27 PM
yeah im doing render tests now and the shadow reflections look great, shadows are very smooth and overall the photon transfer seems to be much more pronounced, more color transfer and more luminosity.HUGE improvement. great stuff. im verry happy so far. great job PMG. :) :)

some small suggestions:

1 change the default AA from enhanced to adaptive.
2 show better render time info, the new LW render panel gives alot of useful info, maybe not as detailed but a better timer and estimated time would be helpful (for tweaking settings)

stooch
03-21-2006, 03:47 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1632-1/2_4_Test_01.jpg

4:10 ( time reported by messiah 3:54! MUCH BETTER )

stooch
03-21-2006, 04:03 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1635-1/2_4_Test_02.jpg

3:04 as reported by messiah.

stooch
03-21-2006, 04:25 PM
http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/1638-1/2_4_Test_03.jpg
2:34 (time reported by messiah 2:20 - hmm it seems that messiah still doesnt account for the first pass )

I think its feasible for a sub 2 minute render at acceptable quality for animation, hmm, maybe its time for a new scene... something with particle effects.

EvilGnome
03-21-2006, 10:55 PM
What system are you running it on Stooch?

stooch
03-21-2006, 11:37 PM
Dell Precision 670
Windows XP Pro
3GIGS of Ram
Dual Xeon 3.6ghz
Nvidia Quadro 4400 XGL

MoodyB
03-21-2006, 11:52 PM
Looks good stooch, are those times with 1 thread ?

It would be nice if M:S could allow more photons, as to get the contact shadows under all the balls you appear to need a gather radius of around 2, which even with 15,000,000 photons renders blotchy here ( might be that I'm using the wrong settings )

stooch
03-22-2006, 12:07 AM
nah those are 4 threads. no sense using 1 thread if in real world people would use whatever works the fastest. not messiahs problem that kray cant do multithreading.

anyway i think we can all agree that there is plenty of headroom to extract even more speed out of messiah. but i think this scene has been beaten to death. I am working on something a bit more interesting not only as a good benchmark, but to see what messiah can do. i think we need more user created unique renders here.

ErwinZwart
03-24-2006, 11:59 PM
nah those are 4 threads. no sense using 1 thread if in real world people would use whatever works the fastest. not messiahs problem that kray cant do multithreading.

anyway i think we can all agree that there is plenty of headroom to extract even more speed out of messiah. but i think this scene has been beaten to death. I am working on something a bit more interesting not only as a good benchmark, but to see what messiah can do. i think we need more user created unique renders here.

I think this scene bores me even more than it does you ;) Wegg and me had beaten it to death months before you started this thread.
I reread your first post and found some data wrong. I rendered with LW and FPrime and Messiah with 4 threads and Kray used only 1 thread ofcourse (until multithreading is added in Kray1.7)
I used 4 bounces in FPrime and Messiah and Kray used 24 bounces. All this on my dualcore AMD64X2 4800+.
So indeed that it's not messiahs problem that kray can't do multithreading, but it doesn't help it in the end. Kray still renders way faster on one core and way more accurate.
I showed earlier a rendering from labuzz redone in Kray. There you see too can that Messiah lacks accurate radiosity.
I am glad that 2.4 update fixed some of the very bad reflection errors, but in the field of accuracy nothing is solved because it needs a new final gathering method of the photons.
Messiah already has an accurate Monte Carlo if you leave the (experimental according to docs) GI Noise Reduction off. It means long rendertimes and MC noise though.

I noticed that in your renders you took a wrong lighttype and you used very high GI radius value. Basically that means the local GI is blurred so bad that the spheres have no contact shadows anymore.

Here are my (really final!) Messiah results:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/Radiosity_BOXMessiahMConly44m36.png[/url]
notice contact shadows under spheres

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/Radiosity_BOXMessiah24Final7m45.png (http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/Radiosity_BOXMessiahMConly44m36.png)
this one is best I could reach with all settings.
GI samples 24, GI depth 4
12000000 photons, gather radius 3, gather count 10000, tolerance 1.0

here a lot of different values, it is interesting to see that if you want to rescue the contactshadows, you have to lower GI radius and that gives a lot of photon noise, you can also see in the reflections how bad the rest of the scene gets, like walls and ceiling.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/Radiosity_BOXMessiah24colorValues.png[url="http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/Radiosity_BOXMessiah24colorValues.png"]

ErwinZwart
03-25-2006, 12:25 AM
here is the Kray render:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/Radiosity_BOXKrayFinal.png
maybe you can change the url in the first post in the thread to that.

for the people who just say, who cares about those contactshadows?!, think about it. In some scenes like an interior almost the whole picture can be an space that is such a contact shadow. So when this is not accurate, everyhing appears to "float" on the ground and lacks contrast.

here is a sequence that shows the direct light as white and the GI in different stages of the render:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/Radiosity_BOXMessiah24MCplusGINR1stpass.png

first pass, contact shadows

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/Radiosity_BOXMessiah24MCplusGINR2ndpass.png

the GI noise reduction eats them away, only under the left larger sphere remains some faint one

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/Messiah/Radiosity_BOXMessiah24MCplusGINRlowgatherR.png
to get them on all spheres, the GI radius gets so low that there are photon splotches anywhere...

stooch
03-25-2006, 01:43 AM
i still think there is plenty of potential to use for animation. afterall the fastest render was in 2:34 minutes. just up the quality until you get a time you are comfortable with.

also kray is limited in its shader support and geometry. with messiah you get all the shaders.

Taron333
03-25-2006, 02:07 AM
I think it's a great observation with the contact shadows. That shouldn't be too much of an issue figuring out how to optimize our photon solution to retain them! Great thread! I'm sorry I wasn't paying attention to this one from the start...but now that we've got a milestone done we're finally open to check deeper into other sections...just like this one! So thanx! :)

I'll keep you updated! :wip:

stooch
03-25-2006, 02:22 AM
hey taron, you think you can also look into a more natural refraction solution? something more like a checkbox to eliminate the need to create "AIR" polys?

and the render time is still not calculated with the photon emission pass included.

thank you for all the work btw, really nice to see bugs get squashed :)

p.s. lets talk about krays multithreading when its done :)

AAAron
03-25-2006, 03:28 AM
hey taron, you think you can also look into a more natural refraction solution? something more like a checkbox to eliminate the need to create "AIR" polys?

Yeah Ill kill for that one :bounce:

ErwinZwart
03-25-2006, 08:06 AM
hmmmm, whatever the problem may be... having photons working is pertty important IMO. the time savings are huge, even with GI depth of 4. the reason why im using 4 is because Kray is set to 4 bounces.

I am going to this thread once more, because I didn't read the first pages thoroughly.
The Kray render has 24 bounces, but with a Monte Carlo renderer (first pass) that is insane.
I tried to set it lower to get more speed, but then the arealight shadows under the spheres and the ceiling and upper corners get way too dark. A light in such a box should light up the whole thing and wash out the shadows.

Taron333
03-25-2006, 08:50 AM
24 bounces...iiik. That'll be some sort of "trick" in terms of "intermediate baking", which is something I thought of not too long ago. I do see that it should very much be a better type of photon distribution and reception/evaluation. Sounds like a curious and fun project to research into..... coincidently this is along the lines of something we are preparing ourselves for these days. SO: VERY COOL, thanx a lot! :lightbulb

As for the refractions, yeah...hmmm....let's see how we can implement that the most elegant way. I'll have to think about that, but it's something that should benefit greatly from being implemented into the core.... ...we'll discuss the possibilities of a direct integration into the shading procedures, or if we simply make that an extra little node thing. But it will come and most likely very shortly, too! I seem to remember that Thomas Helzle was doing something like that already, if I'm not wrong. He also made some beautiful renders with it, I thought....hmm.... anyway, it should be a standart part of the rendering. So, again, THANX, great call again! But I really want to point out that Thomas was thinking about it, requesting it and even doing it himself a few years ago, if I'm not wrong... ...so don't think I would have forgotten. There were plenty of little things falling a bit behind and as we build up the major elements we develop the space to fill in all the furniture piece by piece! That's a pretty one, too! :thumbsup:

ErwinZwart
03-25-2006, 09:52 AM
...or an answer to this one first...

Man, I hope you weren't reading like I wouldn't care about Photons. Photons are kick as$, only that in case of Gi it takes a lot of careful fine tuning to understand what the best settings are and they are never universal. Each scene may have it's own sweetspot/numbers.
But my particular interest in Photons starts somewhere else, not directly related to Gi, but intstead for other shading needs! It's something Fori and I have been thinking about for a long time now, but never had a chance to implement it so far. Hopefully soon we'll get to do that so I can show you what I mean.

Another thing that actually opera was talking about and that we all have heard over the years is the whole "baking" issue, actually. I would want to go one step farther and actually "abuse" that baking concept right away to improve upon bounces for the light!

Hi Taron,

this sounds awesome! Photon renderers like vray and kray use lightcache to store the first irradiance pass, that works great and fast. I don't expect Fori to write a new photon renderer overnight, but I feel Messiah:render is almost there for me, if it spreads the photons to places where they are needed! I started testing Messiah again, because it can run on my BNR farm and Wegg told me it has matured now after I complained about not being able to use FPrime and Kray on the farm. The new shaders and all are great, and also the pure Monte Carlo renders are good now.

look at this picture, this is a testrender in Kray showing only the photons (200000 24 bounces):
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/Radiosity_BOXKrayGlobalUnFiltered.png

the next is the first pass in Kray showing the gather count: (13secs)
notice the large "gather radius" that cannot hold the shadow under the smaller spheres
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/Radiosity_BOXKrayPrecompute.png

This is how the first pass looks filtered and this pass is stored for the final gathering upcoming second pass:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/Radiosity_BOXKrayGlobalFiltered.png

If you would add the direct Messiah lightshadow you see exactly what Messiah make of this scene, interesting, this is about where Messiah photons ends and where Kray starts to do the actual render.

It spreads a grid of points from where it sends off rays all around to calculate the actual light there and it uses this precached irradiance for fast "lookup" and interpolates the samples.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/Radiosity_BOXKrayFGraySpread.png

this render was made with "only" 200000 photons to make the photonmap and from those white dots between 200 and 400 rays are shot to calculate the exact illuminiation. You see that there the contact shadows are back in the picture.
It's true that every scene "needs" its own parameters but we found a very easy recipe to get there, most scenes all work with same settings and the only thing changing is the number of FG rays and the spread of that, with "small overkill" it works for any.
I hope a similar thing can be added to the Messiah renderer and pictures like in this post should be no problem anymore: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3261217&postcount=84
see also my Kray render of that, it shows well what we miss in Messiah now.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3274961&postcount=101

ErwinZwart
03-25-2006, 10:48 AM
i still think there is plenty of potential to use for animation. afterall the fastest render was in 2:34 minutes. just up the quality until you get a time you are comfortable with.

also kray is limited in its shader support and geometry. with messiah you get all the shaders.

exactly, kray uses the same "trick" as FPrime to interface with LW, so no access to shader tab and such, hopefully LW9 node editor will help there. I expect FPrime and Kray updates to hook into that.
BTW if there is anyone realising kray's shortcomings, it's me. You are the one constantly talking about multithreading, not me. I just rendered in Kray like it does at this moment on my dualcore and used more threads in Messiah and FPrime and kray times hold up well. btw for this particular scene I saw in FPrime no visual improvement when using more threads compared to one in the same rendertime:
1 thread:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/LWBenchmarkKrayFPrime5m36qual5.png
4 threads:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ezwart3d/LWbenchmark/LWBenchmarkKrayFPrime4threadsSAME.png

strange huh?! In Messiah this is really parallel it seems, I didn't try, but it looks like that.

Also, maybe you should look more critical to the latest renders you produced in this thread, those fast renders look nothing like realistic lighting. Use a Spotlight and only thing you can change then is bounces, GI NR settings and AA. Your result would then be about the same as mine or Wegg's.
you write: "just up the quality until you get a time you are comfortable with."
That's kinda strange after I showed you in a long post there IS no setting that ups the quality. I have to use a compromise now to get the result I showed. The time is less important, but using Monte Carlo without GI Noise Reduction just takes too long on "normal scenes"
I agree we should try prettier scenes now, but I just used this scene to illustrate some problems in any renderer, it already led to the fix of the reflections, so it helped ;)
I tried a render of a room earlier even before Wegg and me tried to tackle this LWbenchmark, will show later.
I am doing all this to be able to use Messiah for supposedly nobody else wants it for ;)

ThomasHelzle
03-26-2006, 02:57 PM
I must be crazy but here it comes anyway:

There seems to be more demand that I thought. :shrug:

Questions:
- How many of you would be interested in buying TLHPro if I would release it next week?

- What would you be willing to pay for the collection - more, the same or less than for AoN?

- Would you be willing to accept preliminarily docs for now, with full docs (not as big as AoN though!) later? The tools are very easy to use IMO, so you should have no problems.

- Two plugins from the originally announced set may be missing for now or reduced in functionality (Wireframe and Ambient Occlusion) but you would get:


TLHPro: BiasGain (old, updated, combines Bias and Gain in one node)
TLHPro: Channels (old)
TLHPro: Color (new, simply gives you an animateable color when you don't need a full gradient)
TLHPro: Distance (measures Distances in several ways)
TLHPro: Doublesider (texture the front of polygons different than the backsides)
TLHPro: EasyGlass (makes the setup of simple glass objects extremely easy - no more doublesided objects needed)
TLHPro: EasyMath (allows you to stack up to 10 mathematical functions in a row so you don't have to clutter your shaderflow with multiple of my older math nodes)
TLHPro: Merger (28 PS-like layer modes for your combining pleasure ;) )
You could call it also an advanced Mixer Node.
TLHPro: HSVtoRGB (old)
TLHPro: RayType (switch between different materials for camera, reflection, refraction, GI and custom rays)
TLHPro: RGBtoHSV (old)
TLHPro: ShowValues (a helper I use for development - shows the min, max and average of values and colors that go through it. It doesn't do anything to the values)
TLHPro: SplineCurve (use the messiah graph editor as an superfine spline editor for textures)
TLHPro: SuperStep (old updated, Clamp, Step and Smoothstep in one node)
TLHPro: Thickness (measures Thickness in various ways)
TLHPro: Time (allows you to use time as part of the shaderflow - with multiple options for intervals etc.)


The old TLHPro Development Thread is here, browse it for more info on the included nodes:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=187319

Information about AoN:Studio, the procedural texture set for messiah:studio can be found here:
http://www.screendream.de/AoN_studio.htm

Maybe let me know on the TLHPro Thread what you think.

Taron: would you guys be able to finally make sub-groups available for the right mouse button shaders list in the 2.4 patch?
With my TLHPro tools added, the list grows longer than the screen is high and this list doesn't scroll, so the first and last in the list can't be accessed.
I think the best approach would be to allow for sub-directories under plugins and the directories are reflected in the list as submenus (like the materials in the palette). So a sub-folder under plugins called "TLHPro" would show up as a submenu "TLHPro" in the shader menu. If that is impossible, a specific entry in the plugin itself would be also okay, but not as flexible for the user to organize shaders just as he wants...

Remember: this is no promise, just a question to gather some intelligence...!

Best regards,

Thomas Helzle

dobermunk
03-26-2006, 03:09 PM
I'd be interested, though it would be less attractive if Ambient Occlusion weren't included...
That's a damned handy shader...

Price? The same as AoN, I'd say.

Nichod
03-26-2006, 03:23 PM
I'd be interested. I'd say the same price. Yep.

By the way. It would be incredible if you did release them.

AlexK
03-26-2006, 03:35 PM
As a beta tester (so to speak) for the TLHpro shader set I can only recommend them to everyone. They make again a big improvement in working with the Messiah shader system. :thumbsup:

Great work Thomas! :bounce:

A price equal to the AoN shaders is totally appropriate.

Suricate
03-26-2006, 03:43 PM
THLPro shaders !? :bounce: Where do I have to sign !? :bounce:

Sure, Thomas, get them out as soon as possible ! I would pay a similar price for them as for the AoN shaders.

Nichod
03-26-2006, 03:47 PM
Well at least $300 right there Thomas. I'd say its worth it. At least you'll get some money. With all the time you spent on them, I'd say its worth releasing them.

AAAron
03-26-2006, 04:02 PM
Sign me up!!! :bounce:
I would give same or more as the price for AoN.
Im earmarking cash for it right now.

MoodyB
03-26-2006, 04:04 PM
Count me in as well.

rush123
03-26-2006, 04:08 PM
Thomas,

I’ve already stated that I would purchase given the opportunity. But I did notice that the two listed below was not on the list, is this intentional?

TLHPro: Occlusion (brandnew - ambient occlusion and more!)
TLHPro: Wireframe (tons of options for wireframes, vertices and polygons)

R

ThomasHelzle
03-26-2006, 04:25 PM
Woa - now this is some feedback on a sunday afternoon - holy shit... :bounce:

Reminds me of the good old times!
Seeing this, you can count on hearing from me next week. If everything works out as planned, I will release the shaders as they are, with full documentation coming later and the two unfinished shaders (Wireframe and AmbientOcclusion) following later too (maybe slightly reduced in functionallity compared to the old thread because of problems with the SDK that didn't allow me to put in all the things I wanted in a relieable way).

I haven't tried the tools with 2.4 yet, so take this announcement with a grain of salt please!

I don't think there is an updated SDK at all with 2.4? The headers are all dated from last year?
Taron, can you clarify this and the state of Develop?

BTW. I have updated most of the links in the old thread now...

Thank you all! :bowdown:

Thomas Helzle

MoodyB
03-26-2006, 08:06 PM
Taron: would you guys be able to finally make sub-groups available for the right mouse button shaders list in the 2.4 patch?

With my TLHPro tools added, the list grows longer than the screen is high and this list doesn't scroll, so the first and last in the list can't be accessed.



As a sidenote to this, is there any particular reason why the shader list isn't sorted alphabetically ? This did my head in for years in LW with it's horrendous plugin list, and it is just bearable in M:S at the moment, but when the list gets bigger as more plugins appear, it'll just become messy to work with.

Wireframes
03-26-2006, 08:07 PM
Hey Thomas
Sign me up too at the same AoN price (for AoN users) :thumbsup:

Phil

Edit : would like you to code some hair shading ? :bounce:

MoodyB
03-26-2006, 08:10 PM
Woa - now this is some feedback on a sunday afternoon - holy shit... :bounce:

Thank you all! :bowdown:


Thank you Thomas for considering to release the TLHPro plugins. If you do, the Raytype shader will be worth it for me alone, never mind the others ( finally, one image for GI lighting and a seperate one for relections )

Nichod
03-26-2006, 08:46 PM
Edit : would like you to code some hair shading ? :bounce: Thomas already commented that he would not attempt hair shading. Or at least he commented that he wouldn't do hair. I suppose it depends on what you mean by hair shading.

Wireframes
03-26-2006, 09:06 PM
Thomas already commented that he would not attempt hair shading. Or at least he commented that he wouldn't do hair. I suppose it depends on what you mean by hair shading.

mmmh sorry I didn't know that .... (I was spoken about a hair/fur trick like)

Maybe a particule hair generator like Blender (http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/PartXIII/Particle_Hair)then ;) ... but this is not the same work.

Phil

Nichod
03-26-2006, 09:14 PM
Taron has hinted vaguely that a hair implementation is in the works. Its a wish on many people's lists after workflow and bug fixes.

rodc
03-26-2006, 10:15 PM
I would buy Thomas shaders for sure. For $100 or more.

Bill_nuts
03-26-2006, 10:45 PM
Hi Thomas

I would like to buy a set of these too. Count me in.
I appreciate your past frustration with messiah, but I believe you are a real asset to this community and this software.
I have enjoyed your AON shaders although LW is still my main renderer. (at the moment)

cheers
Bill.

ThomasHelzle
03-26-2006, 10:53 PM
This must be the coolest community on earth.
I'm really overwhelmed once more.
Thank you very much!
:bowdown:

So next week I will test all the shaders and see if they still work as they did in 2.0, write a brief documentation and off you go... If anything goes wrong I will report it on the TLHPro Thread.

If you are all okay with that, I think I will sell them for the same price as AoN:Studio, with no special introductory price or bundle. Not so much because I'm greedy, but because the community is simply too small for special offers.

Alex: could you also do some additional beta testing and report any problems or suboptimal things you encounter to me? That would be really useful.

If there are any problems after the release, I am willing to fix them ASAP, but since the tools aren't as thoroughly tested as the AoN:Studio shaders were back then, you should be aware that there may be a glitch or two.

Thank you once more for your support! :thumbsup:

P.S. There will never be a hair plugin from me: first I'm not that good a programmer and second, the SDK doesn't contain half of what would be needed for that IMO - from interactive interface handles for styling to creating geometry or custom interfaces... better wait for pmGs implementation.

Nichod
03-26-2006, 11:56 PM
This must be the coolest community on earth.
I'm really overwhelmed once more.
Thank you very much!
:bowdown:


Of course it is! And you know where they hang out? Join us there Thomas and others. Usually at least 12+ people chatting away.

irc.freenode.net #messiah3d

dobermunk
03-27-2006, 07:30 AM
Usually at least 12+ people chatting away.
irc.freenode.net #messiah3d

I'm locked out for the moment... in case anyone was wondering...
Only access is through the new job office and the firewall is keeping me out.
:-(

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