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billrobertson42
02-11-2006, 02:08 AM
Hi. I'm working on some 3d figures that I want to use for rapid prototyping which will stand about 30-32mm tall. I have the basic shape of a male figure done, but here is the problem. If he were that tall, his wrist and ankles would be too slim and fragile (as well there are other difficulties).

So I have to cheat and thicken them, and then other parts of the body too so it looks a bit more natural, and I don't have enough knowlege about "the rules" to break them.

I have a sample of him in a more natural size, and also a sample of him in a thickened state (which is still in progress).

I am also getting interested in the topic in general and I have a question. How do I post pencil sketeches? I don't have a flatbed scanner, would photos of the sketeches work?

Anyway, back to the topic. I took a swag at scaling the figure, and it need some work. On the right is the original and on the left is the thickened version. Any feedback you can provide on making the stout version look better will help tremendously.

http://www.tekbot.com/silo.compare-front.jpg
http://www.tekbot.com/silo/compare-front.jpg
http://www.tekbot.com/silo.compare-45.jpg

http://www.tekbot.com/silo.compare-side.jpghttp://www.tekbot.com/silo/compare-45.jpg

http://www.tekbot.com/silo.compare-sop.jpg
http://www.tekbot.com/silo/compare-side.jpg


http://www.tekbot.com/silo/compare-top.jpg

Thanks!

Rebeccak
02-11-2006, 03:34 AM
billrobertson42,

Hi there, :) it might help to know about the rapid prototyping process, about which I confess to know very little. Is it laser reproduction / out of plastic? I think what might help me is to know what the variables are in terms of how the rapid prototyper handles the 3D data that it's given ~ forgive my clumsy terminology, but will it, for example, take the 3D model and make a real world model equally less thick universally, or does it vary?

Hope I'm being somewhat clear with my questions. :)

Regarding posting images of pencil sketches ~ photos are fine ~ I take photos of my charcoal drawings, and just tweak the levels and cropping and things in Photoshop.

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-11-2006, 03:59 AM
I use a milling process, and it cuts the pieces exactly as I set them up. I don't create hollow pieces since these are small. So the goal here would be a piece that you could hold in your hand that's solid and looks exactly like the 3d model on the screen.

I have the figures scaled in rhino with measurements, but I'm testing the repairs on my wife's computer at the moment, so I don't have it handy. I'll post that in a fiew mintues.

Here are some pictures of other miniatures. These are hand sculpted. Just a note, most miniatures are a bit thicker/exagerated than what I'm looking for. There are others that are closer to being proportionally correct, but they still have ankles that are at least 50% larger than the "ideal."

(The one on the left is probably close to what I'm looking for)
http://photobucket.com/albums/f362/fps22/?action=view&current=Image010.jpg

(The one in the middle is probably close to what I'm shooting for in this photo)
http://photobucket.com/albums/f362/fps22/?action=view&current=Image008.jpg

(A line up of various miniatures)
http://www.displacedminiatures.com/Matakishi/image.aspx?image_id=10944&from=All%20Things%20Zombie

I found the photos on this thread.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=65222

Thanks for your interest!

*edit*

On the right it's about 1.3mm wide, and on the left it's about 2.1 mm (ankles)

Rebeccak
02-11-2006, 04:26 AM
billrobertson42,

I'll have to get back to you tomorrow about these...:)...just so I'm clear, you're just looking to make a more solid~looking figure? It's not an issue then of the machinery needing extra mass on the model so that it doesn't make certain areas, like the wrists and ankles, too thin? The ultimate goal is a beefier looking model, right? :)

Thanks!

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-11-2006, 05:14 AM
Right, the goal is a beefier figure. It has nothing to do with the particular rp process, but it is related to the size of the object produced -- some exagerations need to occur due to the small size for aesthetic and practical purposes. So my immediate goal is to get some feedback on how to make the figure more stocky/beefy just plain thicker (so it's easier to make) and maintain a good sense of overall proportion (so it looks great)

Plus I now have an excuse to start in this forum, which I think is the coolest place I've seen yet. I'm studying the odfw #12 picture right now.

Thanks.

Rebeccak
02-11-2006, 05:31 AM
Gotcha, thanks! :)

I'm thrilled you've found this forum, and think that you will find a great many talented artists and useful information here. :) The OFDW series has been fantastic, and I've seen many people improve rapidly over the course of only a few Workshops. Looking forward to your participation on the OFDW thread/s and in the Anatomy Forum generally!

I have to say, I could easily do a paintover for you (which I'm happy to do, just not tonight) ;) but you will benefit much more from participating in some of the great threads which we have here, such as the OFDW series (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2602753&postcount=3) and the 15 Minute Sketchathon (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=295498). I frankly think that people improve the most through the OFDWs ~ you can see this on individual Anatomy Threads (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2817397&postcount=12), such as those of Mr. Mu (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3125859#post3125859), Vidar3d (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=304458), and many others.

EDIT: Also, check out this link to Anatomy Forum threads which are specifically targeted towards 3D Artists:

Resources for 3D Artists (Digital / Traditional) (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2897679&postcount=6)
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2897679&postcount=6

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-11-2006, 05:31 PM
Hi. Any advice that you would be gracious enough to give would be appreciated, and I would prefer it to be in the form that simplest and quickest for you. So if it's less effort to sketch a couple line or just to tell me what you think would work better then great. I am just happy to get some feedback from somebody who has more experience with this.

It might help to share what I think the next steps could be.

From the front.

I think the hips to thigh ratio doesn't look good. I'm not sure if the hips/lower torso need a bit more bulk or if the thighs need a bit of scaling down.

I think the head needs to return to it's original height and needs to be widened a bit.

The shape of the arm needs some serious work.

From the side.

His buttocks look a bit small. I think that possible they need a bit more bulk.

Same with the chest and the head.

The hands and feet need to be reshaped too (from any angle) :(

*edit* the orthographic drawings thread looks promising. I missed that one before.

Rebeccak
02-11-2006, 06:06 PM
billrobertson42,

Here's a quick paintover of the bulkier model render:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/rebeccak5/Anatomy%20Thread%20of%20billrobertson42/billrobertson42_Rev-1_1.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/rebeccak5/Anatomy%20Thread%20of%20billrobertson42/billrobertson42_Rev-1_2.jpg

I've slimmed the thighs and calves a bit, and lengthened the leg, giving him more of an ankle. Also I've lengthened the arms a bit, to give him more of a forearm and a wrist. I've made the head a bit larger and more round, and posted reference from The Anatomy Thread of M.E.L. (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=3048027#post3048027) which contains a lot of good bodybuilder's reference.

Also, for any figurative artists, I highly recommend the website http://www.3d.sk/ where there is tons of Reference for download at $13.50 / month. Great site! I just recently became a member there. :)

Hope this helps a bit ~ please let me know if you have any questions. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-11-2006, 09:52 PM
After looking at the outline that you made I think I know what I need to do to cheat the ankles out. I think the answer is to basically pull the narrow part of the lower leg out and also widen the foot. Then I think the rest of the body can remain more proportionally correct.

I tried to sketch out what I had in mind.

http://www.tekbot.com/atbr42/fatankle.jpg

billrobertson42
02-11-2006, 09:54 PM
Here's some other abuse of a good sketch pad that I committed awhile back.

http://www.tekbot.com/atbr42/blockhead.jpg

Rebeccak
02-11-2006, 10:59 PM
billrobertson42,

I definitely think you're on the right track here with doing sketches from Hogarth's Dynamic Anatomy!

I would also suggest just looking at images of leg anatomy / anatomy in general:

http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/sma/legmuscl.gif
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/sma/legmuscl.gif

http://lpig.doereport.com/imagescooked/642W.jpg
http://lpig.doereport.com/imagescooked/642W.jpg

http://thumb.shutterstock.com/photos/display_pic_with_logo/2423/2423,1107188721,3.jpg
http://thumb.shutterstock.com/photos/display_pic_with_logo/2423/2423,1107188721,3.jpg

Depending on the 3D program you're using, you should be able to create image planes with Reference images in Orthographic views. This way you can basically just 'trace' the Anatomy which you see.

I also recommend trying out some of the Exercises posted to the beginning of this thread:

Beginners' Lounge (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=297229)
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=297229

I think it really helps to loosen up and do Gestural Drawings. :) It takes a lot of drawing practice to become comfortable doing things from imagination ~ hundreds of drawings, really. I think it's best to start by doing fast copies of Master Drawings in 2 / 5 / 10 minute or 2 / 5 / 15 minute sessions, where you work from the same Reference image and do 3 drawings from scratch in a limited time format. This forces you to capture the essence of the pose, and then later you can do more detailed studies once the concept of Gesture has been digested.

Hope to see some fast studies! I really think that they can be quite useful. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-12-2006, 02:19 AM
I definitely think you're on the right track here with doing sketches from Hogarth's Dynamic Anatomy!

The book was recommended to me by a friend, and it's great. Each time I look at it I find something new.

I will give some of those studies a shot. I haven't done any sketching in about 25 years, and I'm sure it's pretty obvious.

The model is based off of Ivan's set on http://www.3d.sk/. Although it got a bit weird with the legs because of the perspective differences with the photos. Also, Ivan's lower body is a little underdeveloped compared to his upper body, so again I had to work the legs a bit more.

Thanks

http://www.tekbot.com/silo/next-2.6.jpg

Rebeccak
02-12-2006, 02:28 AM
Is the above screenshot of the original (thinner) model, or is this a new model? Sorry, it's hard for me to tell from the wireframe. :) In these shots, the 3D model is looking pretty good.

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-12-2006, 02:30 AM
That's the original. I think I'm going to dump the fat version and start this phase again.

Have a good evening.

Rebeccak
02-12-2006, 02:33 AM
Okay, I just superimposed them and figured that out. I think what you might try doing is just using a beefier model as reference. Given the nice job you've done with the thinner model based on the 3d.sk reference, it will probably be easier to just base a modified version on different reference, rather than just trying to guess from imagination. :)

Of course this doesn't mean dumping the thin model, which hopefully you still have an iteration of ~ but I agree that the chunkier model likely needs to be replaced.

Hope I was of any help. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-12-2006, 10:53 PM
Fantastic help. Yes, thank you so much.

Here is the new chunked out version. It looks a little odd on the screen, but I think it's close to what it needs to be when it's about an inch tall.

http://www.tekbot.com/silo/next-4.1.jpg

Rebeccak
02-12-2006, 10:55 PM
Hey, I think that this does look better! Any chance of a front view render?

Cheers, :)

~Rk

billrobertson42
02-12-2006, 11:05 PM
Thanks! I felt like I was doing better when I looked at it and said to myself, "he needs an ankle," rather than, "hmmmmm."

Here's the front. The arm/shoulder region needs a bit of tweaking I think.

http://www.tekbot.com/silo/next-4.2.jpg

Rebeccak
02-12-2006, 11:08 PM
Looks pretty good! I think the thing to watch out for is the ankle is currently just about as thick as his thigh, and definitely thicker than the knee. You may want to slim that a bit. Also, the top of the hand looks 'puffy'. You might flatten that out a bit to look a little more natural.

Apart from that, I think you're on the right track!

Cheers, :)

~Rk

billrobertson42
02-22-2006, 04:38 AM
Sorry for the lack of updates. "the guy" has a bit of a face neck and a few major muscles. I tweaked the legs a bit at Rebecca's suggestion. The hands actually need to get a bit fatter. I did a test cut and they're a still a little bit thin. Neck and head are a bit narrow in this shot.

http://www.tekbot.com/silo/next-6.2.jpg

I was also sketching a bit to learn about the arm. (and after looking at the two together i think I need to move the bicep down a bit.

http://www.tekbot.com/atbr42/arm-muscles.jpg

Rebeccak
02-22-2006, 05:33 PM
billrobertson42,

I know you've mentioned the head, but I think that it looks a bit small for the body (not just too narrow). What are your thoughts? :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
02-23-2006, 02:21 AM
I have thought that myself, but he's no taller than he used to be so I left it alone.

Current proportions...

http://www.tekbot.com/silo/next-6.3.jpg

*edit* hold on a sec for the image...
*edit edit* imags is where it should be -- web server not responding. :banghead:

billrobertson42
02-23-2006, 02:45 AM
Tech support claims the problems should be resolved now.

billrobertson42
02-26-2006, 02:23 AM
Feet and ankles are pretty messed up (but that's what boots are for), and the bicep somehow got flattened out (?).

Other than that though, I think he's looking o.k. considering that I'm just sort of shooting for a decent form and some of the basic topology. I've also learned a lot about some of the basic shape of the body, which has been part of the goal too. There is still a long way to go.

I've also put out a couple gestural drawings too. It really seems a lot like what John Buscema calls doing stick figures. I recall doing a lot of that, but that was a long time ago. I'm still trying to sort of get the right notion for the master drawings (the 5/10/15 min exercises).

Thanks again so much for all of the help. :applause:

http://www.tekbot.com/silo/next-9.1.jpg

http://www.tekbot.com/silo/next-9.2.jpg

Rebeccak
02-26-2006, 05:11 PM
Hey, you're welcome! :)

He's looking pretty good! :) You might want to make his arms a bit longer if you get the chance.

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
03-01-2006, 09:38 PM
If you haven't already, you should totally join the Challenge!

http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/journey_begins/enter.php

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
03-08-2006, 11:34 PM
Ack! I did it. I have no idea how I will ever complete it, but what the heck.

I'm trying to sketch out concepts, and I am just so ... inexperienced.

Anyway, I've been poking about for a reference picture of somebody running, from a front view (because I can't figure out the foreshortening), and I'm drawing a blank about where to look for one. (Having a rough day), and pointers?

Rebeccak
03-08-2006, 11:50 PM
I would just Google "runner" :) ~ also, check out the 15 Minute Sketchathon Reference Sticky, there are lots of pictures of runners (olympic) there, which I found by Googling "runner" + Olympic.

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

billrobertson42
03-09-2006, 12:01 AM
Yeah, my brain re-engaged after I posted that, and that's what I did. I found a photo that is almost exactly what I'm looking for too.

Thanks

Rebeccak
03-09-2006, 12:04 AM
LOL, no problem. ;)

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