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Kurtis
02-09-2006, 09:17 PM
We promised some new product information and demo videos this week, and here they are! We've posted a large amount of new information about LightWave v9 to the NewTek site. Please use the links below to learn more.

LightWave v9 statement by Jay Roth (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_letter.php)
LightWave v9 feature list (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php)
LightWave v9 feature demo videos (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_demos.php)
LightWave v9 Open Beta FAQ (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_betafaq.php)

chikega
02-09-2006, 09:33 PM
cool beans :)

LEGC
02-09-2006, 10:03 PM
Everything looks great!

Niklas Collin
02-09-2006, 10:54 PM
I love the node editor and many many other things but there are few things still bugging me:

1) You say that OpenGL in Layout has been redone, how about Modeller? Do we still have this same really slow OpenGL performance as before?

2) I'm still waiting to hear news about instancing coming into LW9...

If LW9 really delivers on all the things that has been promised and Newtek can promise us that those two things will be in LW9 or in free upgrades (LW9.x) then I think you've just sold another LW9 upgrade...

mercuryrex
02-09-2006, 11:06 PM
Just had a quick read and one or two things stood out that sound interesting and offer up new possibilities, amongst other things.

The new hypervoxels do sound like they have the potential to create pretty decent liquids.

Proximity - I don't know if anybody thought about this one, but it does sound like reflections on a surface can be made to be dependant on how close they are to an object. Strong/weak, blurry/clear.....Now that sounds good.

The stress setting. Now bump maps are not static and a nightmare to change dynamically, and can now fade, vanish, and re-appear and be stronger depending on the deformations of a mesh. Think of the wrinkles on the skin of a hand that would have been a nightmare to attempt before due to all the varying wrinkling going on.

Not to mention something that is pretty much useable as sub-pixel displacement. So workflow with ZBrush 2 looks to be a big asset.

And of course I'm very interested to know if the new SSS shader is as good as we hope it's going to be. Not a lot said about that yet....I'm hoping to see some screenshots soon.

And a sketch shader sounds interesting. Maybe this is a step closer to a shader to rival or better the 'Sketch and Toon' shader that I've seen a lot of people wishing for.

There seems to be a lot here to look forward to. On the surface of things, this looks to be the best and biggest update I've ever seen for Lightwave.

I'm really looking forward to seeing some work that has been rendered with some of these features soon.
I'm very much looking forward to this release.:)

.

Kurtis
02-09-2006, 11:17 PM
As you may have noticed from the links on the pages I referenced earlier, we are working on a second FAQ that will have to do with the shipping version of LightWave v9. This second FAQ will be posted soon, and I think you'll find that it will address a number of your questions.

habaņero
02-09-2006, 11:44 PM
YES ! :bounce:

Kurtis
02-09-2006, 11:53 PM
We are working in more videos that will be posted over the coming weeks. Most of the details will be provided in the course of releasing these.

Kid-Mesh
02-10-2006, 12:13 AM
(quote removed)...cause someone is drinking the kool-aid :thumbsup:


Honestly, this is the best update I've read since LW9 was announced. The tone of this update was personal and I like that. For once Newtek removed the layer of Corporate entity and it felt like they were speaking to us as friends and not just customers.

What sucks is that I think we have one of the harshes communities sometimes when it comes to nitpicking NT. Althought we could argue rightfully so for somethings I still think we need to cut them some slack. There are some great things ahead...how hard is it get motivated to work if your targeted audience bitched 90% of the time?

I'm a software developer by trade and from what I read it sounds like these guy's havent had a holiday yet. Someone is defintely burning the midnight oil out there and it's appreciated for sure.

Newtek is headed in the right direction and thats good news...hell any news these days is great but this was awesome. Thanks Jay.

Keep it going ....you guys already have my money :D

trygve
02-10-2006, 12:29 AM
Kid Mesh said it. :thumbsup:

joseburgos
02-10-2006, 01:54 AM
Anything done to the render buffer saver, extended rpf and rla?

Will we get G buffers for layering?

Thanks,
Jose Burgos

a_joke
02-10-2006, 02:20 AM
i have a question... with the current plug-ins i have, now that all of this has been updated in lw[9], will they work if i update? for ex. projectmessiah, fprime, sasquatch and all the other lovely lscripts that are already available.

thanks,

a_joke

a_joke
02-10-2006, 02:25 AM
i'd also like to tell newtek that i'm behind them 100%. i was a 3d max guy until i saw lw[6.5] and blown away ever since. i know i haven't been around as long as others have, but i'm in it for the long haul.


a_joke

habaņero
02-10-2006, 02:51 AM
Well I replaced with a something that I believe is very clear at beeing a 100% supportive, because I am. I just meant that the gist of that list was already revealed, at least I without seeing the all new stuff not mentioned before marked out didn't see any big things that I didn't already know about. Maybe some things a little more precisely laid out, but it is trying these things out or reading the manual that will be the time when I can say something more than "that looks really sweet". Well I didn't get to see the downloads as well, so I couldn't comment on those.

Like there was a discussion about the spelling of Oren-Nayars name like all of the last week... It is really nothing negative at all, I have an idea what closing on this release must be like and it seems they are even having a rather good time at it ... I meant I just am very eager to get to try this for real. I agree with you premise though, I sometimes see reactions here that are uncalled for or not exactly hitting the right note and that can easily have been the case for that one. It was an honest reaction though, I personally think the valentine idea is a little bit over-the-top but funny. Just really on the border of mixing two different things and coming out with something better than the separates altough inside it. Its an opinion. :)

3DDave
02-10-2006, 03:21 AM
New Rendering Core, awesome!!

Freak!!
02-10-2006, 06:32 AM
FPrime still does not support Shaders! Crapsome!

elfdestruct
02-10-2006, 07:11 AM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php

Full SDK Support for third parties to create nodes (including shading models) and for third party renderers to interface with / query nodal shaders.Is this not sufficient..?

Stress maps are excellent to see added, wasn't expecting that. So many other cool little & large additions. :D

Netvudu
02-10-2006, 11:28 AM
I think this is going to be great, and many people is ashaming themselves with all the "will it have [insert xxx tech here]???? come on!!! wake up! Playa, 4D GAX and CSI have it years ago!!! You b$%&$%!!!". :rolleyes:

Just read. You got a feature list. Period. If itīs not there, unless last minute surprise, it wonīt make it to the update, and end of story. If you donīt like it go play with Anathema 5D. ;)

sinbad
02-10-2006, 11:36 AM
Aw I was hoping for some development in the character animation arena:sad:
Yes I know you are working on it, and the stuff so far is great.
Please though... when you do get 'round to it:

Please implement IK setup by clicking such as in Maya/XSI, with automatic end effector (ik handle) rather than having to put in nulls by hand and going through menus to activate
Please implement automatic pole vectors to point knees and elbows
Please implement snapping tools for grid, point, edge etc
Please implement an easy set driven key system with driven/driver as in Maya
Please implement the use of controller curves with something like custom attributes assigned rather than sliders
Please implement the ability to keyframe anything, even points
Please make the skeleton bindable and unbindable in a non destructive manner
Please improve the timeline keyframe tools & graph editor with weighted tangents
Aw what the hell just copy Maya's Character tool set.

The rest of LW is looking sweeet.

WillBellJr
02-10-2006, 02:24 PM
I agree, and I'll frankly put forth that this is THE BEST upgrade that Lightwave has ever received (well since I joined in at v6.5)...

I'd also like to thank Newtek for all their hard work and force behind making LW a more powerful tool for us, their customers.

I've never been sorry of my LW purchase in fact, I've always been PROUD to say I own Lightwave!

So while I've taken time to learn and use other tools, I'm glad to see that LW is again offering some powerful and new ways for me to get things accomplished!

I definitely look forward to reaquainting myself with the tool I know the best and longed for the most since the beginning of my career in 3D graphics! :applause:

-Will

PentamiterBeast
02-10-2006, 03:33 PM
From the LW9 Beta FAQ page...

"Do you guarantee bugs I report during the Lightwave v9 Open Beta will be fixed?

...it may be determined that the bug is actually a feature request."

Kurtis
02-10-2006, 04:28 PM
i have a question... with the current plug-ins i have, now that all of this has been updated in lw[9], will they work if i update? for ex. projectmessiah, fprime, sasquatch and all the other lovely lscripts that are already available.

thanks,

a_joke

Unfortunately, we aren't able to test all third party plug-ins. We recommend that you contact the developer for up-to-date information on LightWave v9 compatibility. And you may always recommend to the developer to contact NewTek for information on maintaining compatibility with LightWave 3D.

Kurtis
02-10-2006, 04:31 PM
Aw I was hoping for some development in the character animation arena:sad:
Yes I know you are working on it, and the stuff so far is great.
Please though... when you do get 'round to it:

<snip>

The rest of LW is looking sweeet.

If you have not already, please feel free to submit your list to lwfeatures@newtek.com. I know a lot of possible features are being reviewed and worked on, but I'm not a character animator, so it's a little hard for me to keep track of the tools in that area myself.

Kurtis
02-10-2006, 04:34 PM
From the LW9 Beta FAQ page...

"Do you guarantee bugs I report during the Lightwave v9 Open Beta will be fixed?

...it may be determined that the bug is actually a feature request."


Yes, this was brought up in another forum as well. One thing you have to keep in mind is that since this is an open beta, there are going to be a certain number of participants that are new to beta testing and even new to LightWave itself. Sometimes what people think are bugs are simply a matter of the software not having been designed to perform in that manner. Something like this would require a change in the way the program functions, which means Feature Request, rather than bug.

Darth Mole
02-10-2006, 05:06 PM
I dont know about it being the best update to LW, but if it's rock-solid and bug-free, it'll certainly be the most useful!

PetterSundnes
02-10-2006, 05:27 PM
I am really looking forward to try the new camera based baker and compare it to Microwave (shouldnt have spent money on it a couple of months ago it seems :) ) oh well, good to see a really good built in baker now.

Julez4001
02-10-2006, 05:38 PM
Camera Surface Baking
OMG!

Bam - well worth the upgrade - RIGHT THERE!

WOW!


Since its a camera feature and not a shader - Fprime will be able to access it.
But the native render spit that face out in under 3 seconds ...

YES!

As for Character Animation tool - I have messiah. Who cares!
LW continue to work on making the Render and Dynamics faster and better.
I would only ask for better mdd load times and list manager for that.

colkai
02-10-2006, 06:39 PM
FPrime still does not support Shaders! Crapsome!
Err, FPrime is not a Newtek Product.
Anyhoo, I would append a "yet" to that, I doubt that will remain the case, though there will be people clamouring for support of nodes before current shaders I'll wager.

KillMe
02-10-2006, 07:31 PM
node editor is basically nodal right? the plugin that was being deveolped but was bought and intergrated - i remmber teh demos shown of it at that stage and it worked with fprime i believe so why wont this?

monovich
02-10-2006, 07:53 PM
this is all very exciting.

woo woo!

Kurtis
02-10-2006, 08:32 PM
We have added a second FAQ to the site. This one is about LightWave v9 itself.
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_faq.php

Emmanuel
02-10-2006, 09:06 PM
Jeepers, THAT's a FAQ !!!
Wow.Very extensive.


" Will there be a LightWave v9 demo version available via download?
Yes. Once we have completed the release of LightWave v9, we plan to make a downloadable demo version available. Unlike previous LightWave 3D demos, this version will be time-limited, rather than feature limited, allowing those interested in taking LightWave 3D for a test drive to realize the full potential of the application. More details of this new offering will be posted as they are made available."

I mean, nobody listens to me anyway, but why not make it like the XSI Experience ?
Its already a good move to remove those stupid limitations, but its a complex piece of software we have here, and I guess it would be good to be able to test ist longer than just the usual 30 days...my 2 cents...

Sil3
02-10-2006, 09:38 PM
I mean, nobody listens to me anyway, but why not make it like the XSI Experience ?
Its already a good move to remove those stupid limitations, but its a complex piece of software we have here, and I guess it would be good to be able to test ist longer than just the usual 30 days...my 2 cents...

As long it is not like MAYA PLE and those HORRIBLE watermarks ... thing is that making a XSI Exp kinda thing, NT staff needs to write a new Demo format and probably remove some scripting ability, or else people might get scripts to import/export data.

The idea is awesome indeed, specially for game moders, and now with that PIMP thing coming around...maybe itīs time NT REALLY focus on gaming as much as it does the on some other stuff.

Who knows...we might get an UT2k8 (or whatever) bundled with a LW demo instead of a MAYA demo...

thx1138
02-10-2006, 10:00 PM
Well the node based surface editor is gonna keep me awake for sure. Don't understand how the hell it works yet, but it sure looks awesome :drool:

Great work so far from our friends at NT :beer:

3DDave
02-10-2006, 10:54 PM
Have changes been made to the SDK to enable the use of third party renderers?
LightWave is known for its renderer (indeed, v9 is currently rendering 2-3 times faster than v8.5), and NewTek will not abdicate the task of rendering to outside interests, as almost all of the other 3D applications in our market have done. That makes no sense to us, given our business model. That said we won’t do anything to prevent such access either, as that would be a waste of resources. Put simply, while we are not specifically going to make support of third party renderers a priority, changes to the code and the SDK will make it easier for those developers to implement their products as time goes forward.

Will FPrime work with v9?
FPrime works with v9, though some additional development is needed for FPrime to take full advantage of the new features in v9. NewTek and Worley Laboratories are in close communication as developments proceed on both sides. We recommend contacting the developer directly for further information on product compatibility.

What changes have been made to the SDK to benefit Worley specifically?
Our discussions with other developers are confidential in nature so we can't disclose any specifics, but Worley Labs is certainly among the developers who provide us with very useful input on SDK development. As with the implementation of new features, SDK changes are made based on what will have the most benefit to the most users and the ability to integrate them with the ongoing changes to the LightWave 3D code base. A number of third party developers are members of the LightWave beta program and their input is taken into account on a continual basis.


Good news is I guess Newtek does not consider FPrime as a third party rendering engine.
Bad news is it seems like Newtek has a chip on it's shoulder with third party rendering engines.

digital verve
02-10-2006, 11:08 PM
I like the format of the new videos; a lot more professional. I've been using lW on and off since ver 5 and this new version actually looks like delivering good stuff. I am pleased Newtek have put into practice for this release what the userbase has been asking. A shame about not having the new faster opengl in Modeler straight away, but at least it's coming in a point release. :)

Panikos
02-10-2006, 11:43 PM
Bad news is it seems like Newtek has a chip on it's shoulder with third party rendering engines.

They are/will be responsible for their decisions.

Chuck Baker
02-11-2006, 12:32 AM
Bad news is it seems like Newtek has a chip on it's shoulder with third party rendering engines.

Not a bit. The item specifically says that things are going to get better and easier for third party renderers - but that we do intend to place the highest development priority on continuing to provide a state-of-the-art world-class renderer native to LightWave 3D. The attitude that you sense is not against third party renderers, it's the aggressive insistance on continuing to develop our own great renderer when so many other top-end applications have abdicated that function to third party inclusions.

Phyrea
02-11-2006, 12:55 AM
Not a bit. The item specifically says that things are going to get better and easier for third party renderers - but that we do intend to place the highest development priority on continuing to provide a state-of-the-art world-class renderer native to LightWave 3D. The attitude that you sense is not against third party renderers, it's the aggressive insistance on continuing to develop our own great renderer when so many other top-end applications have abdicated that function to third party inclusions.
The entire direction (especially the above statement) that NewTek's new development team is taking really gets me excited. This especially.

joseburgos
02-11-2006, 01:14 AM
What about the render buffer as it pertains to depth/z buffer?

I still can not use the LW extended render buffer (rpf or rla) for Z buffer.
Any improvements to this?

Thank you,
Jose Burgos

monovich
02-11-2006, 02:05 AM
I've just watched the new videos, and just have to re-iterate how excited I am. I am constantly barraged with "why do you still use LW?". Sometimes I just shrug, sometimes I also ask myself the same question.

Right now it's nice to feel good about my decision to stay and see what happens with 9. Granted, I haven't even used the software... but I still feel good about it what I've just seen.

The camera tools, nodal system, renderer, and modeling tools in layout all have me giddy with excitement.

The new videos are presented much better (especially the node one), and the overall stance newtek seems to be taking with development seems very calm and assured. It's a nice change of tone.

-sf

3DDave
02-11-2006, 03:34 AM
Not a bit. The item specifically says that things are going to get better and easier for third party renderers - but that we do intend to place the highest development priority on continuing to provide a state-of-the-art world-class renderer native to LightWave 3D. The attitude that you sense is not against third party renderers, it's the aggressive insistance on continuing to develop our own great renderer when so many other top-end applications have abdicated that function to third party inclusions.

Thanks for clarifying that Chuck, I can't wait to join the beta team for 9.

colkai
02-11-2006, 10:38 AM
Thanks for clarifying that Chuck, I can't wait to join the beta team for 9.
Likewise.
I have to say, I like the 'aggressive' stance Newtek is taking, I also like the way things are being laid out here. Anyone who mis-interprets these statements is trying real hard to overlook the obvious. :p

IMHO It is the responsibility of all who undertake the Beta to keep comments clear, consise and to the point when reporting problems / perceived problems to Newtek and to be careful that desired functions are separated from real bugs.
If we want LW9 to be the best and most stable, it behooves us to work WITH Newtek to make that happen.
I do think a thread of 'suggestions' on the Beta forums would be a good idea, for things which, whilst not a bug, may be a useful change. (e.g. Consilidation of a tool action, or a request for interactivity on a tool).

I also applaud the decision to go for a time-limited demo - much more useful I think.

All in all, I can seriously say, I don't think I've ever seen a release of LW that is so fundementally different from prior versions. The future awaits. :D

mav3rick
02-11-2006, 10:54 AM
Will all my third party plug-ins work in LightWave v9?
Unfortunately, we aren't able to test all third party plug-ins. We recommend that you contact the developer for up-to-date information on LightWave v9 compatibility. And you may always recommend to the developer to contact NewTek for information on maintaining compatibility with LightWave 3D.

Personally i vote lw start to cut off past compatibilty once for all times and give us fresh ground to start from ... out of box lw gives enough to finish any project and any 3rd party developer stuff worth to use will probable be recoded to benefit lw 9 features. hopefully with v 10 we will cut off unnecessary WINDOWS and old school code that we carry from past cause of compatibilty.

icedeyes
02-11-2006, 12:45 PM
Since nobody aked and since it has been on my mind since i read the FAQ, here goes...

What lightwave modeler tools are now embeded into layout?

Will Newtek make the move towards a unified enviroment in the future (some may love it, some may hate it... I would be with the first ones) or will it remain as a split app?

I think it would be cool and it seems like NT is headed that way slowly...

PetterSundnes
02-11-2006, 01:44 PM
Will Newtek make the move towards a unified enviroment in the future (some may love it, some may hate it... I would be with the first ones) or will it remain as a split app?

I agree on a unified application from a technical point of view, but in the aspects of workflow, I belive a context sensitive toolset to be the best and as such the current split application works well. That said, it would be far better if it was actually only one application that change from Layout mode to Modeler mode. A colleague using 3DS Max showed me something he found very useful, a plugin that isolated the model that was active so no other models cluttered his modelling, and it reminded me of pressing F12 in terms of how to work with the scene and its models.

Personally I don't see a conflict between keeping the Modeler and Layout seperate or making them unified. It's only a technical issue and does not have to affect the current workflow one bit, so I vote for a single app (and also an open standard xml format for all aspects of LW file formats, scenes, models and animations).

No intentions of turning this thread into a feature request though... looking forward to the next coming weeks, betatesting LightWave[9] and ofcourse continue betatesting PIM :)

Kid-Mesh
02-11-2006, 02:55 PM
Man I had to rub my eyes and re-look through this thread again...is it just me or does it seem like were becoming a community again (slowly). Before the release of v8 I remember how the lightwave forums here @ CGTALK had such a positive vibe. Seems like v9 has the potential of putting the "crew" back together.

Here's to the future of the LW forums here and the sharing of information and positive experiences that will follow. :beer: I take nothing away from any of the other awesome LW forums such as SPINQUAD and LW3D.org etc etc. But... CGTALK is the center of the universe when it comes to CG and potential customers.

So being that we all want to see LW succeed we can do our part and assist in the growth of our user base by showing artists how awesome it is wave. Now is the time for us to come together strong.

I just have a feeling that v9 maybe that new jumping off point we needed. :)

Ivan D Young
02-11-2006, 04:44 PM
I'll second that thought! Here's to the future of the LW Community:)

mocaw
02-11-2006, 05:40 PM
I agree on a unified application from a technical point of view, but in the aspects of workflow, I believe a context sensitive toolset to be the best and as such the current split application works well. That said, it would be far better if it was actually only one application that change from Layout mode to Modeler mode. A colleague using 3DS Max showed me something he found very useful, a plugin that isolated the model that was active so no other models cluttered his modeling, and it reminded me of pressing F12 in terms of how to work with the scene and its models.

Personally I don't see a conflict between keeping the Modeler and Layout separate or making them unified. It's only a technical issue and does not have to affect the current workflow one bit, so I vote for a single app (and also an open standard xml format for all aspects of LW file formats, scenes, models and animations).

No intentions of turning this thread into a feature request though... looking forward to the next coming weeks, betatesting LightWave[9] and of course continue betatesting PIM

I have regained quite a bit of confidence in NewTek by the way they are handling this release. To be quite honest 8.X left me feeling burnt, though I loved getting DFX+. I'm also glad that they are pushing ahead, regardless of the feature lust of some users, into areas that don't seem as glamorous but are essential for LW to evolve and grow. The new baking, camera options, nodal etc. are proof that with the right people and money ANY application can make a turnaround. Then again how many companies have such a loyal userbase that will stand by their side during some very skimpy releases? I guess it's because we knew they really could and would make things right...

petterms

XSI has an window/viewport that you can use to view and edit models in a scene on an individual basis out of the box. It is very simple to use as you could have a scene with 3,000 cloned objects, and by clicking on one in a normal view port the explorer one will show only the isolated model in its current state (or any operation stack state you choose). There you can do addtional modeling on it or animate etc depending on the stack mode you're in. I long thought that for LW this is the correct approach to doing things in terms of integrating modeler into Layout. In XSI this isn't the way you normally work (though you could) but for LW it makes a lot of sense since we have two separate apps right now and are use to viewing models on their own in modeler. Many would find this an easier transition for sure. Maybe NewTek has something even better in mind?

In other regards to LW having modeler in Layout I have a very positive feeling, granted it's just a feeling, that the modeling integration was slowed down in the 9 release in that it is being tied directly into the new animation system they are developing. What many LWer's don’t understand is that there is more to using modeling in layout beyond mesh corrections, vertex painting, weight painting etc. If NewTek in anyway is tying the modeling operations to an operation stack of any sort we will see the order of magnitude in power for our modeling and animation that we have seen in node based shading as opposed to layers alone! This isn't a guess- it really would be that big of a deal. There are so many things in animating and modeling with the current LW8 that would require or do require plugins, that if there was even the simplest operation stack, would not be needed. And NO- it doesn't have to be a mess like in Maya. If people want examples I can give them- but until you use these things it seems like morphs and bones are enough alone.

I love how I and many users were such nay-sayers of things like node based shading a few years ago, but after just one simple demo video all are now born again. You try and explain it to peole, but then you show them a shader ball and a render and they wet their pants. Lets hope that NewTek does the same for the new modeling tools in layout and Character animation when they are done!

PS- From what I've seen so far the node based shading intergration looks wonderful NewTek and we all can't wait to take it for a spin in a few days!

spigolo
02-11-2006, 06:16 PM
Mocaw,
you have focused exactly what I think since a long time.. compliments!
I started to learn XSI recently and this gaved me a better view on what LW should have in it's future releases..
I hope that Newtek is thinking to make modeling operation animatable and that their new animation system includes a global autokey system (actually if you want to animate many parameters ie. camera zoom or a color change you have to open the graph editor to set the key frame....!!)
I don't hope to see a sort of history even if I would appreciate one.. i'm also curious to see the new U.I. approach for the modelling tools, I hope I will not see other floating windows..sincerly I hoped that V.9 had cleaned a lot the number of windows to open but from what I see we are still very far to have a clean and sensitive U.I. (come on Newtek.. even After effects 7 has dropped the floating windows approach, I wonder why we can't have the possibility to open things lake motion mixer or graph editor inside a view..)

PaZ
02-11-2006, 07:42 PM
Not a bit. The item specifically says that things are going to get better and easier for third party renderers - but that we do intend to place the highest development priority on continuing to provide a state-of-the-art world-class renderer native to LightWave 3D. The attitude that you sense is not against third party renderers, it's the aggressive insistance on continuing to develop our own great renderer when so many other top-end applications have abdicated that function to third party inclusions.

chuck,
honestly i dont completely agree.
If other software have integrated, say, Mental Ray, it's because Mental Ray is way better than anything else they could be able to develop internally.
It has state of the art GI, shading, displacement and so on, nothing else come close in the market - just Renderman, but it's very difficult to use.
Now, i think NT does a good job in keeping their engine up to date, but i seriously doubt you will be able to compete with so specialized 3rd party tools in short times. LW update has required/will require so much work in all areas, not just rendering.
So imho opening to 3rd more engines like MR, or more specialized ones like Vray would be a major move to cover more market areas. MR is an industry standard tool, lot of 3d users are used to it; allowing the best integration of this (and other) engine would make easier to integrate LW in exhistent pipelines - thus more LW licenses around.
Again, we already have Fprime and Kray, very good engines which cannot be full-blown engines (volumetric and shaders un-accessibility, for example) because of SDK limitations.
Personally, i would have switched software time ago without these 2 plugins, and a whole lot of other users too; so please do the best you can to fully support them.

thanks,
Paolo Zambrini

richcz3
02-11-2006, 08:21 PM
I'm looking forward to the Beta release and features but the 2nd FAQ (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_faq.php)Kurtis posted took a little steam out of my engine.
Lightwave 9 almost ready to release - "stability and reliability are our priority". Please lets include Functionality. Features that work was a key point at SIGGRAPH. Lets make sure everything works as advertised before release.

Also Simple but key points of interest will be limited like tools that can work with edges. Increased OpenGL performance for polygonal meshes - with future updates for speeding up the rest (subdivision surface object and meshes undergoing deformations, etc). OpenGL in Modeler will be addressed in future updates. The road to Lightwave 10

The good points are that more Modeler tools will be available in Layout. I'm betting that the OpenGL speed increase in Layout is built around a future modeler/layout unification. Why spend too many resources toward on Modeler if there is a planned merger. That would make sense. In all honesty, over the years Modeler was getting allot of features added that worked while Layout felt more like Feature experiments. It looks like Layout is getting the much needed attention its deserved. Adding Meaningful features and functions that work as advertised. I'm really glad they brought Jay Roth on board.

mocaw
02-11-2006, 09:43 PM
The LW renderer is one of their main price point kickers- endless rendernodes. It makes sense that they'd want to work on it and not just bring in a second party one- to which they'd be handing some of their control and market over to. Lets see if they re-work farm rendering to be easier to use...

An SDK for the shader system is a great move...that with the core outside...hmm...

mocaw
02-11-2006, 09:57 PM
Let me just say in advance that this is the last "things to be improved in LW" post from me for this thread. I don't want to detract anymore from LW9s huge accomplishments.


I don't hope to see a sort of history even if I would appreciate one...

There is a difference between just a plain history and an opperator stack. There are also ways to make it so that it is turned off- IE it doesn't store anything beyond your undo level. Why are you people so resistant? The same way they intergrated nodal they can intergrate other powerful/complex features.

Some of the people in the LW group are the only ones that say no to the developer making something more powerful! Don't tell them NO...just tell them maybe how you might like it...

It's like instancing...how many LWer's think they don't even need it? Ah man...
AND NO- HD instance doesn't cut it. The whole point is to not just save RAM but have things render faster than even if you had 10000GB.

Here is an example of how these two advanced features, an operator stack, and instancing working together could save someone a lot of time: You do archviz and have made a huge building with those things called windows. Each one has a detailed frame, lever system etc. At the last minute the client says they want something changed. Now in LW this is a pain (even with LWCad). With an opperator stack you'd just edit the orgional and blamo- all of your instances update too! AND since they're instances there is very little render penalty for having 1,500 of them.

But many of you guys don't want that kind of stuff...ah it's just too complicated I know...

colkai
02-12-2006, 09:23 AM
chuck,
honestly i dont completely agree.
....
Again, we already have Fprime and Kray, very good engines which cannot be full-blown engines (volumetric and shaders un-accessibility, for example) because of SDK limitations.
Personally, i would have switched software time ago without these 2 plugins, and a whole lot of other users too; so please do the best you can to fully support them.

thanks,
Paolo Zambrini
Seems you missed Chucks point about NOT to limiting support to 3rd party renderers.
However, it makes perfect sense to focus on their own product instead of spending their time focussing their work perfecting hooks for other developers.

They are, after all, in the business of selling their own product, not acting as a backup developer for third parties. Can you imagine the furore if they came out and said, "no, we haven't developed a new ray tracer as we wanted to provide Kray / Maxwell / FPrime with more power". Folks would be complaining because they didn't have these products, Newtek was falling behind because it's raytracer wasn't up to scratch etc.. etc.. etc..

Chuck has stated, as has Jay Roth, that they are working very closely with Mr Worley, but naturally their focus has to be on developing an improved native renderer, face it, people are complaining about the current one as it is.

My take is simple, they are pushing as hard as they can to develop new methodologies for their products whilst trying their best to make the SDK as accessible as possible for other parties. Works for me.

DMack
02-12-2006, 12:44 PM
If reliability really has been made a priority as stated - and I'm glad that such a point has been made - then I am very excited at LW9. My only concern is that I have also been told that LW8 series is super stable and that has not been my view and so I am still going to wait until LW9 hits the masses and see the reaction regards stability...but I do feel that I am starting to get genuinely excited about LW again - the first time in a while!

The release of LW9 will be the first made by the new team - it will be extremely telling! Do we have LW5.6 reliability (extremely good) or LW8.0 reliability???

I really really really really hope the LW9 rocks!

PaZ
02-12-2006, 01:22 PM
Seems you missed Chucks point about NOT to limiting support to 3rd party renderers.


Not missed, but not in that mood too ;)
Since they say 3rd party engines linking is not a priority, i say it should be instead. I'm fully with them in keeping LW engine up to date, anyway.
Why ? Well if NT target is to make a more universal tool, which will definitively sell more licenses, integration in pipelines and proximity to indusrty-standard tools is a major need.
Maybe programming direct hooks for 3rd engines gives not an immediate result as updating their engines, so i agree they should update LW engine *first*; but these hooks can make the difference in the long term, so hope they'll put serious efforts in that direction too.

Paolo

angel
02-12-2006, 02:35 PM
I cann't wait to get my hands on that node base shading editor.:thumbsup:

Emmanuel
02-12-2006, 03:58 PM
I might regret saying it, but yesterday it did some of what I consider to be "hardcore test" of modeler-hub-layout by rigging a char and doing quite a lot of changes to weights, bones, hierarchies, additional modelling and stuff, and oh wonder, I didn't have a single crash.
Literally every problematic tool and step was involved, including skelegons mixing with bone tools, and no crash.
Sure, the mesh behaved strangely sometimes (deformations looking different after clearing and re-loading a scene), but it all was stable and I became confident that with 8.5 I could start to go wild instead of having that feeling that each click could be the last one :)
So I hope they will strat from there and don't introduce new bugs which make the app less stable again...so far, what the new team did from 7.5 on makes me very confident in their abilities to work with foreign code and rebuild LW from within.

pixym
02-12-2006, 08:51 PM
chuck,
honestly i dont completely agree.
If other software have integrated, say, Mental Ray, it's because Mental Ray is way better than anything else they could be able to develop internally.
It has state of the art GI, shading, displacement and so on, nothing else come close in the market - just Renderman, but it's very difficult to use.
Now, i think NT does a good job in keeping their engine up to date, but i seriously doubt you will be able to compete with so specialized 3rd party tools in short times. LW update has required/will require so much work in all areas, not just rendering.
So imho opening to 3rd more engines like MR, or more specialized ones like Vray would be a major move to cover more market areas. MR is an industry standard tool, lot of 3d users are used to it; allowing the best integration of this (and other) engine would make easier to integrate LW in exhistent pipelines - thus more LW licenses around.
Again, we already have Fprime and Kray, very good engines which cannot be full-blown engines (volumetric and shaders un-accessibility, for example) because of SDK limitations.
Personally, i would have switched software time ago without these 2 plugins, and a whole lot of other users too; so please do the best you can to fully support them.

thanks,
Paolo Zambrini

I am quite agree with Paolo, well said.

Freak!!
02-12-2006, 10:27 PM
chuck,
honestly i dont completely agree.
If other software have integrated, say, Mental Ray, it's because Mental Ray is way better than anything else they could be able to develop internally.
It has state of the art GI, shading, displacement and so on, nothing else come close in the market - just Renderman, but it's very difficult to use.
Now, i think NT does a good job in keeping their engine up to date, but i seriously doubt you will be able to compete with so specialized 3rd party tools in short times. LW update has required/will require so much work in all areas, not just rendering.
So imho opening to 3rd more engines like MR, or more specialized ones like Vray would be a major move to cover more market areas. MR is an industry standard tool, lot of 3d users are used to it; allowing the best integration of this (and other) engine would make easier to integrate LW in exhistent pipelines - thus more LW licenses around.
Again, we already have Fprime and Kray, very good engines which cannot be full-blown engines (volumetric and shaders un-accessibility, for example) because of SDK limitations.
Personally, i would have switched software time ago without these 2 plugins, and a whole lot of other users too; so please do the best you can to fully support them.

thanks,
Paolo Zambrini

Well said Paolo..... (100% agree)

To me that whole Marketing spin on 3rd parties is a complete cop-out.....
NT have assured us over the last 2 years that 3rd parties, SDK and core changes were indeed a priority, and they would be working closely with these people to ensure a bright future with better 3rd party support.......

Now just before LW9, we find very little if any benefits have been made, in particular with things like FPrime, and NT's stance is now to improve thier own tools, and worry about others later....... No Shader sharing, no volumetrics...

For me the thing that has kept myself and many others struggling along with LW,
for the last 12months or more is the fact that FPrime is a market leader and something the others don't have.... But really it's limited, and if NT won't help support others tools, i don't see how i can continue to support thiers....

My own opinion is not what feature LW9 will have, but what changes are made to it's architecture, to ensure it grows with it's market and technology.... LW has not done this
despite telling us it was indeed a priority for at least 3 years now......

This is a shame, because i have a love affair with LW, despite buying a new licence of XSI
and after seeing that message about FPrime, and LW's embarrasing backflip, i'll now upgrade to Modo 201 instead..... As LW9 offers only APS and Ngons that i find attractive...
And Modo201 has them and much much more...

I think NT have shot themselves in the foot, the core and SDK enhancments
needed to be a priority if they want to compete with the others...

Hell Maxon, have done a great job for allowing Vray support, Max has Brazil, Maya Turtle...
LW has FPrime, but NT will ignore it anyway..... In like 3 or 4 versions of LW, Viper has almost no useful changes, and has been left to die. GI is slow.
The person that made LW's renderer what it is/was has left and already made a better version in just 18months......

In 2 full versions with a new development team, NT could not even add the current shader system to be supported by third parties... This to me shows, how archaic and obselete LW's architecture has become, and i really feel i'm being flogged a dead horse, with band-aids...
While the real innovation and technology has moved forward via Modo..

I think the marketing spin applied by Jay Roth and NT are nothing more than a nice way of admiting failure at not being able open their core to 3rd parties.... Sad day really.....

mocaw
02-12-2006, 10:45 PM
I am quite agree with Paolo, well said.

Well there is point oven! For six hundred bucks you can have some mr action going though only on two processors and get instancing, animation tools etc.

There is a problem with mr though- since mental images owns mr...and now some of the head people in control of that company are former Autodesk employees...and since they gave 3DMax unlimited rendernodes...well you can see how XSI got a little screwed over. Hey, don't get me wrong...mr is awsome, but I'm fairly certain too that when a company gets MR they don't get a GUI and intertgration for free. It seems like for softimage they had to pay more to get the intergration- and they have to make many of the shader nodes that use the mr functions on their own, not mental images. It's a very complex situation. Plus while mental images continues to update mr they aren't always going to implament what the users of X application want. There are a lot of things in mr that are out of the scope of 99% of LW users right now so I don't know how helpful it would be for us to pay for them.

That aside...mr is very flexable...powerful...and sexy! It's crazy how well it deals with high polygon counts etc. I have faith though that just the nodal shading coupled with the new sub-ds and render engine alone are going to give us a good size taste of that kind of power. Now if we could just get photon mapping or something like FG...

Lets hope the SDK for nodal and there fore the new render engine are as flexable as NewTek makes it sound. If so we could see some amazing shaders that do some really cool things- and when I mean shaders I don't mean the ones like in the current LW...those are more "painters" often...

Onething everyone who does large scenes or arch viz should be hoping for is that NewTek is going to have some type of raytype splitter node- I've seen some amazing renders that were amazingly fast (yes faster than Vray) done in mr that utilized this method. I've put in a feature request on NewTeks site...but noone gives a crap about it, because they just don't get how this one little simple node can make things SOOOO much faster. Maybe it's already in there? Fingers crossed!

Panikos
02-12-2006, 10:52 PM
I join the choir.

How can Newtek compete with Worley, or compete with Kray renderer ?
Newtek claims that will drive LW to industry leaderership.

All I know is that FPrime/Kray NOW, can render 6 bounces radiosity with acceptable speed, let say 2-3...7 days.
LW as it is now, in order to render an image with 6 light bounces, it will take 9 years rendering for a noisy-frame.

What was the progress of Newtek after LW8.* ? Features that other apps had 5 years ago,
a batch of 3rd party plugins that most users already have, foreign software (DFX+, Realviz ImageModeler, Vue) in order to justify the price and encourage users to order.

To me, things are clear.
I've upgraded to LW9, I paid for commercial plugins, I paid for custom plugins, I paid for messiah, I paid for Modo and I dont have any hesitation to pay to have the features/progress that I require. Its obvious that I cant wait for 2 more years with expectations that Newtek will catch up. They are free to decide whatever they want, I am free to select the tools I prefer.

OpenGL speed ? Check out messiah or Modo. LW needs the entire power of the universe in order to animate something with OpenGL shaders. You want to see how the rendering will look like, FPrime Preview !
We are asking for food, we received water, oh well, at least we have something in our mouth.

I wont finance again experiments, bugs-fixes, plugins I already have or alien software on the shelf.

Why did I upgraded to LW9 ? I had hopes as I had with LW8.
I am expecting a miracle, if it happens, I will be happy, if not, bye bye.

mocaw
02-12-2006, 11:04 PM
I think the marketing spin applied by Jay Roth and NT are nothing more than a nice way of admiting failure at not being able open their core to 3rd parties.... Sad day really.....

I think I'm going to cry. Someone knows how I think...feel...as...as an artist! Thank you Luxology!
"The modo Difference

modo 201 is a different kind of application. It is a place where design and technology live in harmony. It is an environment designed by artists, for artists. It is not just a collection of algorithms, but a refinement in the way you think about the 3D process. By integrating the technologies and processes of modeling, painting, and rendering in a totally new way, modo becomes so much more than the collection of its parts. modo becomes a process unto itself."

Putting aside that the bay area has some of the best marketing and advertising...


So you're leaving LW do to a love affair just so you can go fall in love with LW's sexier, younger cousin? Talk about a company that promises the moon...and only slowly gives you little pieces. Just like anyone that can't seem to get out of bad relationships your doing it again aren't you!
Blah blah blah. Vapor ware that doesn't even have real CA? Why in the hell would I buy that? Do you know how much power is in your copy of XSI? I guess you don't care to use the opperator stack. See major modeling opperations and animation should NEVER be seperate in any new application. Just my 2 cents...and those of most other major 3D package makers. Please...I could care less about the "awsome" sym features of modo and the niffty but 80% of the time useless UV unwraper that you can get for free in wings3D and in an a free XSI plugin.


Personally I'd much rather use Z-brush and say MAX, XSI, or LW. The fact that you mentioned Maxon though shows that you don't really care about animatin tools.

mocaw
02-12-2006, 11:05 PM
...I've upgraded to LW9, I paid for commercial plugins, I paid for custom plugins, I paid for messiah, I paid for Modo and I dont have any hesitation to pay to have the features that I require. Its obvious that I cant wait for 2 more years of experiments and bug-patches, with expectations that Newtek will catch up. They are free to decide whatever they want, I am free to select the tools I prefer.


Well said!

PaZ
02-12-2006, 11:55 PM
My suggestions were not intended to rundown into a collective rant ;)
I appreciate NT efforts, but priority list is something users should always care about.
BTW, there are lot of things to be addressed in a short time so we all understand that NT cannot do all at once.
Anyway my opinion is that providing direct, seamless linking to industry standard engines should be high in priority list, maybe even higher than some things we'll see in 9 beta release.
Playing on an island has proven to be totally wrong, and the phrase "industry-standard-tools" should be painted on NT walls and popup on desktops every 10 minutes ;)

Paolo

Phyrea
02-13-2006, 01:27 AM
No Shader sharing, no volumetrics...
Well, so far they have not said that. In fact the Feature Preview specifically mentions that improvements have been made to allow additional information from volumetrics. Doesn't that sound like Worley's getting what he needs/wants for volumetrics to be accessible for realtime previews? And FYI...volumetrics are already available in FPrime Render.

SDK Improvements
Access to additional information from volumetrics
Many more improvements

michaeli
02-13-2006, 02:07 AM
Blah blah blah. Vapor ware that doesn't even have real CA? Why in the hell would I buy that? .

I think everyone knows that the biggest 3D vaporware is LW .

opera
02-13-2006, 02:32 AM
ah .. lalalla.... argh !!

I agree with your comment Panikos, mocaw,etc...
I use Lw since a long time ... Amiga and now I am feed up with this package or (I may say NT).

I am waiting my beta9 :) .. hey wait ! did I say Beta ?..Oh no ... non final version ?...
Yes "beta" That means not ready yet ...
I am sure at 100% that NT decided to "share" the beta to calm down customers and keep them in a "dream" to make them betatester of an exclusive version...

Really sorry, but I give up : tired to wait.
I have decided to move on (I already did: when I have seen at the Sigraph 2005 that LW 9 was not ready ( just words and words .. ) I was sure at 300 % that LW9 will never be ready in time for the Q3-Q4 (surprising ? no;) ... ).

During this time, I didn't spend my time waiting, I was in a learning curve and I have no regret because I found a more powerfull package (that feet my needs) and i am happy with it. And I don't think I will come back to LW.

As many users I was using Lw since a long time and it was hard for me to "loose" all this knowledge and start from the ground with a new package.

Believe me or not, it toke me few days to feel confortable with this other package Why ? because for the first time I didn't need to fake or tweak to make an effect or find a work around . I use SSS, heir, cloth,etc... without baking, spinning light, etc...
morality: I work better, faster and I can go back to my first job "graphist" I can spend more time to be creative.

Then don't be afraid to move on, to see other tools. I don't want to convince you to leave LW , just to look to something else ( to not react like some "LWfans" or "LWloyalist" = "Open your mind, open your eyes" ).

The last thing : LW community (not everyone of course :) ... but just take a look at the NT forum ( every post goes into $*ų$ ... it's always fighting,etc... ).

If you stay, good luck (sincerely), if you change , have fun !

cheers!

RobertoOrtiz
02-13-2006, 02:39 AM
People..

Tone it down

-R

pixym
02-13-2006, 02:43 AM
Hello Opera,

You are not the only one that think like that, I am switching slowly but surely.

RobertoOrtiz
02-13-2006, 02:48 AM
As a veteran of this kind of thread I can see where this is headed.
To all posting here please read this..

Do I Really Need To Say This? (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=162171)


If this tone continues, Ill close the thread, trash it and repost it from scratch.

This is my only warning.

-R

Panikos
02-13-2006, 02:55 AM
It this tone continues, Ill close the thread, trash it and repost it from scratch.

This is my only warning.

-R


RobertoOrtiz
With all the respect ...
As a client, I have the right to express my opinion. I havent insulted someone personally.
If you want to see only flattering here, close the thread. Some things are more than obvious.

RobertoOrtiz
02-13-2006, 03:01 AM
The point is that we get it. But this is a moderated forum and there are rules for the Lightwave forum.

And the rules of the forum have been clearly been posted.

-R

opera
02-13-2006, 08:19 AM
all my appologies Roberto. Yes my post is close to the edge.... sorry, I came back from NT website reading some old Newsletters (from 8.0 until now) ..

CGtalk is only place with (a bit) of freedom :), we can't express ourself on the NTforum. I came here because I have seen points of view (similar to mine). I am happy to be able to read them ( on NT forum every "no flattering" posts are deleted or goes into a fan war).

It's good to express ourself !
It will be "unfare" to go on other sections (of CGTALK) to talk about LW ( there are enough posts on the Maya,XSi,Modo,etc.. sections that "kick" LW with hard critics).

That's why I didn't give the name of the "other package" or start a list of Lw's feature vs XXX's features. Everyone is free to chosse the package it fits better for them.

Yes some of us (custormers) are desappointed.
Reading post like mine, helped me to see if I was the only one with this feeling.

Thanks Pixym, good to know that I am not the only one. enjoy your new life as I do :) !

Sorry again :Don't read my post as a provocation, but see it more as a"mirror" of our customer's situations (at least mine).

cheers!

note: some people could desagree, but I respect their choise if they want to continue with Lw ( Lw is a good tool but no competitive...).

Panikos
02-13-2006, 08:41 AM
I am badly sick :blush:

colkai
02-13-2006, 10:19 AM
Man I had to rub my eyes and re-look through this thread again...is it just me or does it seem like were becoming a community again (slowly).
Judging from several pages of the usual LW bashing under the heading of "constructive crititsism" / "personal opinion" I think you may have been a bit premature.

Same ole same ole.

opera
02-13-2006, 11:40 AM
nope ...
I think people are exited bcause they was waiting for features and for change since a long time.
I understand their joy about SSS, microdisplacmt...

I remember when Proton posted some "Lw9 features videos"
It was like an hurrican on the forum (never have seen that)...

erikals
02-13-2006, 04:40 PM
Well, personally I think LW9 looks allright, it has some ok features.
In my opinion, I wouldn't say any of the tools rock (then again, who knows, it hasn't been released yet, one day left), but at the same time LW has an allright price. I've seen some look in XSI's direction, and some has jumped over the fence, but I guess it depends on what your needs are. If I was to give an advice to NT for LW9.5 it would be to -make Modeler faster to work with -improve the CA tools (lot of people been whineing about that). There's tons of things that can be improved, meaning it is TONS of code. What I mean is, no app can have it all. Now, if you look at my Feature request list (http://home.no.net/erikals/cgtemp/Request2.htm), I'm sure you'll find things you'd want to add, like CA features/ UV-texturing features +++, unfortunatly there is no way for NT to add it all at once, and I'm sure other 3D apps have lacks as well. Maybe do like me, make a somewhat documented Feature request list and give it to NT.

To conclude, I think NT is heading in the right direction, and it wouldn't surprise me if by LW10 we will have a very great app.

Chuck Baker
02-13-2006, 05:21 PM
Paolo made a very reasonable comment regarding what we had expressed regarding a priority. Aside from the mention of a view with regard to priority, we also stated very clearly several times that we are in fact working very closely with Worley Labs to insure that anything he needs with regard to hooks for FPrime is going to be addressed, and we've provided a list of the SDK enhancements that indicate that we have in fact made the node system accessible, the new camera system accessible, and have increased access to volumetrics and other areas of the existing feature set. All of that has not just been ignored in the responses to Paolo's note, it has been assumed and claimed that such things weren't done. I don't know if the folks involved haven't read all the materials and don't know what the case is, but I strongly suspect it's the greatest likelihood, because the information is there, just as surely as the one comment that was pointed out and over-reacted to.

The fact is things are in progress in all these fronts in v9, and the SDK core access will indeed be rapidly progressed in this series of updates, as we change out old portions of the core for new designs with entirely new levels of capability. LightWave has also always had openly documented scene file and object file formats, so the fact of the matter is that we remain among the easiest applications for third party renderers to support, which is why several other 3D applications load and render LightWave scenes and content, let alone dedicated renderers.

Chuck Baker
02-13-2006, 05:37 PM
One other note - we've talked about separating out the core of the renderer during the 8.x cycle, and work has progressed in v9 on redefining the way the renderer and the animation module interact. We're also, as we've said many times, working with Worley Labs to insure that we provide all necessary hooks for FPrime. Clearly, since we make our SDK available publicly at no charge, anything we do in both cases, for our own goals and for Worley's, will be accessible to all third party renderer developers. Given that, perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that even the most cursory consideration of these facts would make it nearly impossible to jump to the conclusions so many have jumped to in this thread. All the evidence points in the opposite direction of the kinds of assumptions that some folks are making.

PaZ
02-13-2006, 05:51 PM
One other note - we've talked about separating out the core of the renderer during the 8.x cycle, and work has progressed in v9 on redefining the way the renderer and the animation module interact. We're also, as we've said many times, working with Worley Labs to insure that we provide all necessary hooks for FPrime, and clearly, since we have an open SDK, anything we do in both cases, for our own goals and for Worley's, will be accessible to all third party renderer developers. Given that, perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that even the most cursory consideration of these facts would make it nearly impossible to jump to the conclusions so many have jumped to in this thread. All the evidence points in the opposite direction of the kinds of assumptions that some folks are making.

I know you're pointing in that direction, hope it was clear my question regarded only external engines which are not already accessible for LW.
Anyway, i'm sure you know which kind of jewel Fprime is in the market so i'm also sure you're doing your best to full support it, bot NT and worley have all the convenience to do it so NT support for Fprime is implicit.
Maybe i'm naive myself in asking this so directly, but do you think Fprime will be able to render all kind of volumetrics interactively in 9 cycle ? I care about this more than shaders issue (which seems to have changed in new Nodal editor).
Having something like HV or HDinstance working in Fprime would really change everyone's work.

thanks,
Paolo

Chuck Baker
02-13-2006, 06:12 PM
I know you're pointing in that direction, hope it was clear my question regarded only external engines which are not already accessible for LW.

Actually, a good thing to do if those developers have not contacted us with feature requests or for SDK info, is have them get in touch with either Kurtis or me.

Maybe i'm naive myself in asking this so directly, but do you think Fprime will be able to render all kind of volumetrics interactively in 9 cycle ? I care about this more than shaders issue (which seems to have changed in new Nodal editor).
Having something like HV or HDinstance working in Fprime would really change everyone's work.

thanks,
Paolo

I'm sure that anything we provide access to, Worley Labs will take advantage, and we would like to get to a lot of HV improvements in this cycle, including further SDK improvements. We'll be updating the LightWave 9 FAQ with more Q & A as time goes along, so it will be good to check it regularly, as the additions will include future feature info when we get ready to discuss them.

Panikos
02-13-2006, 06:28 PM
Too much text to read.
I 'd like to see things in practice.

Phyrea
02-13-2006, 06:43 PM
I'm sure that anything we provide access to, Worley Labs will take advantage, and we would like to get to a lot of HV improvements in this cycle, including further SDK improvements. We'll be updating the LightWave 9 FAQ with more Q & A as time goes along, so it will be good to check it regularly, as the additions will include future feature info when we get ready to discuss them.
Thanks for the info Chuck. I'm glad to hear that there will be more information provided on a regular basis, especially in regards to features that are still in the works. So does this mean I should be checking/obsessing over it 3 to 4 times daily? :love:

colkai
02-13-2006, 07:20 PM
Too much text to read.
I 'd like to see things in practice.
I'd suggest that is the best course of action for everyone who seems to be convinced of lack of forward momentum without anything to base that on.

Chuck Baker
02-13-2006, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the info Chuck. I'm glad to hear that there will be more information provided on a regular basis, especially in regards to features that are still in the works. So does this mean I should be checking/obsessing over it 3 to 4 times daily? :love:

Naah! Just a look every now and then... :)

PentamiterBeast
02-13-2006, 09:09 PM
so the fact of the matter is that we remain among the easiest applications for third party renderers to support, which is why several other 3D applications load and render LightWave scenes and content, let alone dedicated renderers.

Several other 3D applications and dedicated renderers huh? Go on then, which ones??? Mental Ray, RenderMan, Brazil, XSI, MAX, Maya??? You know, the useful ones.

Shade01
02-13-2006, 09:53 PM
Several other 3D applications and dedicated renderers huh? Go on then, which ones??? Mental Ray, RenderMan, Brazil, XSI, MAX, Maya??? You know, the useful ones.

Your comment was not needed.

JackSkieczius
02-13-2006, 10:13 PM
this is great stuff.

tho what i really want to see in lgihtwave and which cant be THAT hard to impliment is a Hinge Dynamic.
so i can have things danlge and have doors and window panles sway ans such based on movement. now that is hwat i really want.
it is something lightwave has not yet gotten a hold of which other programs have had for a while.

i am jsut hopeing that they will impliment a hinge dynamic sometime in the next few updates.


thanks

cgpoint
02-13-2006, 10:17 PM
... I cant wait to do some rendering test with the beta tomorrow ! Newtek promised rendering speed up to 2,5x For me newtek was the slowest renderer, ... I hope to see some render-time Tests made from some users from tomorrow on...

Typical speed improvements at 2.5x over LightWave version 8.5 for today's increasingly ambitious high-polygon count production scenes
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php










.

cgpoint
02-13-2006, 10:36 PM
LightWave led the way with the first commercial implementation of subdivision surfaces. Now, LightWave sets the bar again, re-engineering the core algorithms for even faster speed, and better results. That means modeling in a shorter period of time.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9_features.php


Newtek Have Ngons and I cant wait to compare the speed with my Modo and XSI tomorrow...












.

KillMe
02-13-2006, 10:38 PM
well cant say about others but i know cinema 4d imports lightwave files and objects with no objections - not sure what other apps do though

and while it does need a plugin ( but i think all the apps do possbily not houdini ) there are plenty of renderman compliant renderers incluging pixars pr renderman supported then there are things like maxwell and sure there are others

PentamiterBeast
02-13-2006, 10:43 PM
Your comment was not needed.

Well I appologise if my tone offends, no such thing was r is intended. I was merely questioning what I see as marketing hype.

Kid-Mesh
02-13-2006, 10:59 PM
Judging from several pages of the usual LW bashing under the heading of "constructive crititsism" / "personal opinion" I think you may have been a bit premature.

Same ole same ole.


:shrug: Yeah it was starting to look that way but my money is still on NT to satisfy. All I can say is that it's alot calmer then before the release of 8 :hmm: for whatever reason. But you still have to consider that NT isnt dodging anything or letting the negative rumor mill get out of control this time. What that tells me especially with their recent public involvement in the forums is that they know what their sitting on.

Reality is this, when v9 drops there are going to be people that are as happy as a pig in $hit. There will be people who are disappointed because one or two key items that light their reactors arent present. It is what it is....but truthfully I think most of use have friggin amnesia.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when v8 dropped a large majority started chimming in that NT needed to redo the core...change the code blah blah..rewrite chants. And now they are doing that. For the unitiated...they aint making chocolate chip cookies, this is hard core engineering. Yet some people believe that the development cycles should be that of website development.

So now that v9 is taking some time and we realize that some features are going to be later than sooner. We complain...alot of people I believe complain to see there own text on the screen.

Dont get me wrong, there have been some validate remarks in this thread too and mostly educational. You can easily spot the pros from the bedroom artist and I appreciate the pro's uping the I.Q. in here.

In the end, all I'm saying is lets face reality...this is the beginning of something new, again something we begged for. There's going to be some quirks and hiccups but NT is not just listening they are implementing. So keep it consturctive and put the personal crap in an email if you have to. Let's keep the community strong so we can have a solid foundation when things start to click around here.

Panikos
02-13-2006, 11:49 PM
I'd suggest that is the best course of action for everyone who seems to be convinced of lack of forward momentum without anything to base that on.

I'd suggest to mind your squabs. I am sorry for your myopia.

TimMehmet
02-14-2006, 12:03 AM
:shrug: Yeah it was starting to look that way but my money is still on NT to satisfy. All I can say is that it's alot calmer then before the release of 8 :hmm: for whatever reason. But you still have to consider that NT isnt dodging anything or letting the negative rumor mill get out of control this time. What that tells me especially with their recent public involvement in the forums is that they know what their sitting on.

Reality is this, when v9 drops there are going to be people that are as happy as a pig in $hit. There will be people who are disappointed because one or two key items that light their reactors arent present. It is what it is....but truthfully I think most of use have friggin amnesia.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when v8 dropped a large majority started chimming in that NT needed to redo the core...change the code blah blah..rewrite chants. And now they are doing that. For the unitiated...they aint making chocolate chip cookies, this is hard core engineering. Yet some people believe that the development cycles should be that of website development.

So now that v9 is taking some time and we realize that some features are going to be later than sooner. We complain...alot of people I believe complain to see there own text on the screen.

Dont get me wrong, there have been some validate remarks in this thread too and mostly educational. You can easily spot the pros from the bedroom artist and I appreciate the pro's uping the I.Q. in here.

In the end, all I'm saying is lets face reality...this is the beginning of something new, again something we begged for. There's going to be some quirks and hiccups but NT is not just listening they are implementing. So keep it consturctive and put the personal crap in an email if you have to. Let's keep the community strong so we can have a solid foundation when things start to click around here.
I agree, while I feel my confidence in lightwave has been shaken before, from what I've heard so far about LW9, nothing has really got me overly worried, and I can see them steering this thing in the best direction. We have to compromise and understand also, if they want to turn LW around then this is probably the way its gonna go, implementation in stages.. itll get there eventually I hope. If people are too immature and downright bitter, then just move on and stop talking about it

opera
02-14-2006, 12:43 AM
To make it clear, I have nothing against Nt dev team. I am sure they came and found a "crappy" code.
I am one of them who says LW need to be re-writen.( I have seen some post of marketing tell me (or us) it was a crazy idea ... I am a "humble" user , I don't know to code, but I can see "an old technology" and compare the market of 3D softwares.
no doubt for me that LW is (or was) too much in "backline", slow render engine, closed environement, etc...(you know the rest). It was unbelivable to not imagine LW re-coded.

yes , the process is on now...

As you understand, I am not an hobbist, I need to be competitive to stay "on the market" because I am freelancer and I need and MUST follow the technologie available today ...

As a freelancer, I have short time to do my job. In my situation I will choose the tool that could give me the "solution" right away. Then why I didn't change a long time ago ?
1) The lack of infos from Newtek (no communications, no roadmap)
2) I did invest money in upgrade and waiting for needed features I didn't get.
3) Didn't have at the beginning money do buy an expensive package.

I am starting to think that there is a price for technology. A company need money to invest too : more money means "more developers", more services, customers support, invest in new technologies, more marketing,etc..
It's like in life, more you pay and more you can expect to get for the price you put in it.

Smaller is the compagny, smaller the devlpt will be. (dont forget that your money is not used only for developpers, but for printing doc, making dongles, mail, office, employees,buying techno. licenses, etc... )

good ideas often came from small companies, but it hard and huge work to make a 3D software.

I am lucky (I win money with 3D) then I can buy packages,then I can understand that someone is doing "non commercial" 3D (education license) doesn't understand why some of "us" are reacting this way.

It's not a war against Newtek. It's just that some questions came on our minds: "Does LW feets my needs anymore?" "can I wait more time to have my "wished" version ?" "Is it better to switch and come back later" etc...

The technologie is fast and change all the time... we need to be at the top (we are in 2006 and in LW you can do only 1 undo ... how many 3d tools do you know that allow you only 1 undo ?
And we are working this way for years (yes you can save your work everytime and reload), nothing is chocking when you knwo only LW, but when you are experienced with other packages, it's hard to close the eyes.)

And the "undo" is just the top of the iceberg.

I had to change my pipeline to fit my needs (I will continue to use LW but I think it will be a "secondary tool", certainly not upgrading and use it "as is" for few years). I may come back to it when it will offer me advantage I can get with other software.

Note: I think it's important for NT to know why people are moving on. And (IMHO) I think because we reacting this way you are getting thoses new features....
If we spend our time saying " what a wonderfull world !!..." you may going to upgrade to v7.9 now ..."
Then Immature reaction ? I don't think you can say immature just beacause we don't share the same point of view and we certainly don't have the same "use" of the software.

Kid-Mesh
02-14-2006, 01:30 AM
opera - Point taking bro but my post wasnt aimed at you per se :) just to the community as a whole for belaboring a point that is now mute. Lightwave is being overhauled case closed.

Much respect to the freelancers and those who earn their keep using 3D tools. I think most can appreciate the fact that you need to add to your tool box when something else doesnt meet your needs. When it comes down to being loyal to x-favorite app and putting food on the table....hunger always wins.

Again, I'm just all about community...period. Positive flow bro, positive flow. There is nothing wrong speaking out when (an individual) is disappointed becasuse x-feature is lacking or not being addressed yet. But poisoning the well doesnt help either. No one cares about any other tool but Lightwave in these forums. If (an individual) has found another app and it works for them...cool beans. But (an individual) shouldnt poison the well as we try to make small positive strides forward.

In the end that behavior rattles the hobbyist and the on the fence buyers. With all this grumbling going on past and present we have lost some serious community talent for a number of reasons. And that imo is 90% our fault...flame me if you want, but people were still doing amazing things with LW even with its so called lacking features. But alot left because of "us".

Luckily there are still some community heavy weights that grace the LW forums across the web and are natural innovators (thank God). We have them to thank for awesome free tutorials and one's that cost :), along with solid advice and the occassional free file download. Let's not lose our greatest asset....each other.

Regardless, I dont live in a "Merry Poppins fantasy world"...most of the time things are either broken, not delivered on time or need work arounds. But hey I can live with that as long as the people around me are having a good time while we wait. Because in the end...the grass always aint so green on the other side either.

Panikos
02-14-2006, 01:31 AM
Worley Labs as well as Kray developer did us a favour by giving us an escape from the slow LW rendering, at a time Newtek was too stiff to make brave steps in this aspect.
People's feedback was far beyond any expectation, it was obvious what people was interested in and Newtek was unable to provide.

Worley publicly requested some SDK changes, similarly Kray developer as well as some other 3rd party developers. So, people asked Newtek to do them.

Instead, we read that this is not a priority, we saw a list of generalizations and some PR/marketing text.

Why Newtek didnt give priority to SDK ? My opinion is due to inability.

E_Moelzer
02-14-2006, 01:33 AM
Oh dear...
Well let me say this:
It is the same prior to every release of LW. The very same people meet here and start the "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!"- whining and every release they say "I am going to switch to package X, because LW does not deliver this or that, we are all doomed blah, blah, blah".
Well, see you all again here when LW 10.0 comes out and I know for sure that it will (despite all the naysayers here).
I would not bet on seeing all of LWs competitors here at that point in time, though because in contrast to the people at NewTek, which is privately owned, the shareholders, of Autodesk, Avid, etc dont care about their products. All they care about it profits.
So they might have more money to put into their products, but if the money they invest does not generate the profits they expect for that.... well say "bye, bye XSi( or MAYA, or MAX)!"
The people at NT however develop products they like to "play with" too...
My money is on NT and LW.
CU
Elmar

E_Moelzer
02-14-2006, 01:41 AM
Panikos, have you seen LW9.0s SDK already?
If not, better be quiet, if yes I guess you would be violating yor NDA right now, so see first suggestion...
So, as long as noone here has any 1st hand info about the new SDK- features of a product that is still in development (and that might therefore still see some updates to the featurelist), I would suggest to take a deep breath and relax until LW9.0 comes out, hmmm?
Oh, btw I am a 3rd party developer myself and we use LWs SDK pretty much to its limits, so we are as eager as you are to get to see some new SDK- stuff...
CU
Elmar

Panikos
02-14-2006, 01:50 AM
Elmar, I dont discuss some things in public.
"I dont know", if I knew things would have been different.
"When I knew", my thoughts were similar.
I simply read and judge.
Maybe this info is directed to general public and is not convincing me, but I dont drop doors by force.
As you say, lets see.
I gave my money, I want "value"

michaeli
02-14-2006, 01:55 AM
The people at NT however develop products they like to "play with" themselves.

Elmar

And NT is the only one who pre-charge user for a vaporware, funny, hah? :rolleyes:

richcz3
02-14-2006, 02:05 AM
It's good to see that people actually moved on already. No one is forced to buy into LW. If someone has found something better and more satisfying, more power to them. They choose to exit the Lightwave arena. Congratualtions. To each his/her own.

As for those that say they've left and continue to poke, prod, and troll at every opportunity, what's the point? What's the objective? I gave other apps (MAYA, XSI, Modo) the one up opportunity one year ago. Took me about 6 weeks to realize the cost effect, learning curve, amoungst other details weren't for me.

So those are the reasons I am sticking with Lightwave.
Pi**ing my pants about NT/LW history isn't going to accomplish anything but rile people up. What matters is what NT is doing to Lightwave NOW.

E_Moelzer
02-14-2006, 02:35 AM
Hmmm, not sure what you mean michaeli.
Can you explain, please?
CU
Elmar

trygve
02-14-2006, 02:42 AM
They want to rewrite the application while making sure they don't go underground for several years (also known as "the luxology methodology" ;)).

NewTek will not work faster if we shout at them or make assumptions about their ability to make the application better, or tell them we are leaving if we don't get edge weighting and sss. Newtek also probably know what shortcommings their application have compared to the other major players. This is quite clearly stated in their vision for the [9] cycle.

They are probably working as fast as they can - and it does feels like there is a passion behind their work. They really want to do this right.

I think the best thing to do is to stop waiting for a sudden miracle. NewTek are just not able to make LightWave into a complete new application in two years. The (brilliant) Luxology team are still working on a rendering solution, and CA is probably years way.

I have faith in newtek.

Panikos
02-14-2006, 02:57 AM
The (brilliant) Luxology team are ....

We invest in LW, we care about it.
Using other apps doesnt necessarily mean that LW wont be used.
Worrying about LW9 means that we desire to use it, we grew up with it.
I dont plan to become an insurance agent.

Snosrap
02-14-2006, 03:06 AM
The one thing that most people that frequent these forums don't quite understand is that we are the minority. A very vocal minority, but a minority none the less. For every 1 LW user that frequents this or any other LW forum there are 6 other LW users that don't have a clue as to the existence of these forums. ( I base this number on our shop- 12 LW users and only 2 of us ever go to these forums.) I'm not sure how or if these users, communicate to Newtek their needs or desires on how to improve LW. But I do know one thing, they never spend their time here. What's my point to all this? There apparently are a heck of a lot of users out there that are satisfied with LW. And again speaking of our shop, we are totally satisfied with LW. Sure we don't do any CA work, but we use it day in day out for all kinds of product, point-of-purchase and presentation designs. Does it have some weaknesses? Sure. Is it instrumental in our company having a competitive edge over our competitors and a direct impact on our company having a banner year? (Over $550 million) Heck yes! Has my boss ever indicated that we need to switch apps? Heck No! Bottom line, LW helps us compete in a global market and make us money. Could other apps do that as well? Sure. But LW works, and for us it WORKS HARD! Thanks NewTek, keep up the good work.

Snos

Panikos
02-14-2006, 03:13 AM
Snosrap, its people that participate in public that give a shape to the app, not ordinary users that use whatever comes out. Also, the people that have voice are legit, warez people dont dare to breath a word.

Your speech is very elegant.

trygve
02-14-2006, 03:18 AM
We are not interested what others are doing.
We invest in LW, we care about it.
Using other apps doesnt necessarily mean that LW wont be used.
Worrying about LW9 means that we desire to use it, we grew up with it.
Disappointment means to have sense that is following a slow/different course.

It sometimes sounds as people are expecting a total rewrite of LightWave in the same time as another company makes a modeller-only. This, of course, is not possible. That was what my comparison was about, as I'm sure you where able to tell.

Worrying is fine, but a lot of the "noise" on both this and Newtek's own forum is really not constructive. People should be able to express their concern and their hopes without going into the trenches and getting all emotional (i'm speaking in general, not about anybody spesific).

I don't think it's possible for Newtek to go in a wrong direction, I think the main issue for a lot of people is the time it takes to rewrite the application the way they are doing. And they have some challenge.

But I cannot seriously imagine that anybody would prefer that LightWave was rewritten from the ground up while the current application was left untouched for several years.

KillMe
02-14-2006, 03:55 AM
oh i dont think the warez crowd remain silent on the boards - certainly seen afew posts from 15 year kids who talking about there personal experiance with maya max cinema lightwave and however many others you care to mention

but there are probally alot of legitimate lw users that have never gone near this or any other board becasue unlike alot of us ( guilty as charged )they aren't so lazy as to not read the manual =) and they dont feel like complaining about what they are using

Snosrap
02-14-2006, 04:17 AM
Snosrap, its people that participate in public that give a shape to the app, not ordinary users that use whatever comes out. Also, the people that have voice are legit, warez people dont dare to breath a word.

Your speech is very elegant.


"its people that participate in public that give a shape to the app"

I will say one thing, they sure seem to be passionate about it in one way or another.

"not ordinary users that use whatever comes out"

Define "ordinary user" please. I've never filled out any warranty card or the like asking if I was "ordinary".

"the people that have voice are legit"

Not sure what you mean by this -- good artists? use legit licenses?
I would guess that in Newteks eyes any individual or corporation that purchases LW through normal distribution channels, is legit.

"Your speech is very elegant"

Thanks, I think.

Snos

Panikos
02-14-2006, 04:34 AM
ordinary user, silent, not participating
legit licenses

Snosrap
02-14-2006, 04:44 AM
Well nobody ever said I was extra-ordinary (except for maybe my mother)
I guess participation has it's rewards.

Thanks for the clarification.

Snos

mocaw
02-14-2006, 05:10 AM
Look it's true that the cycle for 8 was not enough. Can we go back in time? NO. Are they re-writting LW? Yes. They clearly said they were going to chop up the code, break it down into parts, and then go over each section. That way we can have an application that evolves, but doesn't stay behind closed doors for fifty years. They did it with the renderer, the shading, and most of the guts invoved in modeling. Now their taking on probably the biggest, baddest, buggiest, most in need of art of the app- layouts animation features. While they are at it they are intergrating modeler into Layout- slowly for very good reasons.

Is it enough in this market? Who can say really. Does it mean they've been sitting on their hands? NO. Some of you want them to polish a turd so that it has some bling NOW...well I'm happy to wait and use suplimental software while they get it right- or as close as they can.

There is a lot for them to do, but unless you don't want to see LW 9 until a few years from now you'll have to take it in stages. All I can say is this cycle is looking MUCH better than the 7-8 one that left so many feeling burnt.

And it's true about the corp. companies. While their workers might love 3D the board and CEO don't give a shiz. They could be selling soy beans tomarrow and as long as the same money rolls in they wouldn't even blink. Still I'm not going to get a touchy feely with any marketing department- publicly traded or not.

For the rest of you- why in the hell don't you buy point oven and say XSI while you wait? If you really need extra features why tourture your self?

Muad'dib
02-14-2006, 07:37 AM
Well, see you all again here when LW 10.0 comes out and I know for sure that it will (despite all the naysayers here). I would not bet on seeing all of LWs competitors here at that point in time, though because in contrast to the people at NewTek, which is privately owned, the shareholders, of Autodesk, Avid, etc dont care about their products. All they care about it profits. So they might have more money to put into their products, but if the money they invest does not generate the profits they expect for that.... well say "bye, bye XSi( or MAYA, or MAX)! " The people at NT however develop products they like to "play with" themselves. My money is on NT and LW.
CU
Elmar

Well put Elmar, tho I don't know about the comment on how "they like to "play with" themselves." :D ;)

From my pov I don't see anything in NT's statement (the one regarding their continual development of the LW renderer & progressive SDK support) which does not make good, long term strategic/business sense. Don't any of you see a "slight" flaw in the simple fact that pretty much no one using MAX/XSI/MAYA is also using their internal render engines. Would any of you be worried if gradually over the years NT scaled down (even phased out) it's render development ? Would some of those very same people who sugest NT begin to prioritise (to whatever extent) SDK over native render cry foul years later when development on one or more of these "external render engines" was slowed / halted / paused ... or heavens forbid brought out by the opposition. In the natural progression of things these engines will continue to sprout, grow, bloom, leapfrog over one another, wilt ... and we'll happily just wash rinse and repeat.

Heck I'll be the first one to put up my hand for some of the bells and whistles that come with some of these external engines but at the same time I see that by doing so I would loose the "unique quality" that has been LW's trait since day one were they to become the norm of my LW experience. I for one did not buy LW so I can render like X/Y/Z and what makes FPrime unique in this bag of tricks (if you classify it as a renderer), is that in it's current incarnation (even with its limitations) it looks and feels and renders pretty much just like LW. So it's not just it's speed which makes it attractive to so many of its users, and I think NT would be well aware as to the multidude of reasons why so many of us use it.

If right at this very point in time you want your renders to look/speed along like VRAY ... go and buy and use Z (and in the future possibly X/Y/Z/A/B/C). If you want the look and feel of MR go get X/Y/Z (and in the future X/Y/Z/A/B/C). If you want the look and feel of LW now and in its future incarnations ... well you get my drift, it's not such a hard concept to grasp.

So from those of us that are looking a little beyond the immediate future ... happy trails NT and god speed :)

icedeyes
02-14-2006, 08:12 AM
Ok... my opinion is that even though i use XSI at work (and lw for some of the modelling), I still consider LW the best value for money (that is the reason why i upgraded to 8.5 and 9)... I agree that some features are lacking (and for me its not the rendering, its the character animation tools) but it is an application with it's pros and cons much like any other package... One thing that i certainly expect from lw 9 is solving the stability issues but i havent seen any user of ANY application not complaining about stability issues... XSI crashes on me as often as lw but i am willing to take this as long as i can get my work done in time (sorry for using xsi as an example but this is the second app i am using right now and thus the only app i can compare lw to)...

If people dont like a program, it is my opinion that they should move on to something more fitting to them... I have been at companies using max, lw, maya and xsi and i can say they all handle themselves pretty well... It's the artist and not the program as it has been stated a million times over...

As stated in the begining of this post these are just my personal opinions....

thomasvandenabeele
02-14-2006, 08:45 AM
I would just like to say, Chuck Baker, you earn my respect with each post.

Every day I visit this forum and read these posts and see what Chuck writes, alas only to see replies complaining about the very things Chuck clearly stated were happening.

Anyway, Chuck, if you're reading this, it's nice to see that you always remain courteous and informative, even when repeating something for the umpteenth time in the face of sometimes overly sceptical posters. It must be frustrating sometimes, but rest assured, a lot of readers do catch on the first time round.

Keep up the good work!

Thomas

Niklas Collin
02-14-2006, 09:16 AM
As for those that say they've left and continue to poke, prod, and troll at every opportunity, what's the point? What's the objective? I gave other apps (MAYA, XSI, Modo) the one up opportunity one year ago. Took me about 6 weeks to realize the cost effect, learning curve, amoungst other details weren't for me.


Very much the same thing here. Tried Modo, XSI etc. and found out that even when I like em, they don't offer me enough to justify a) the price b) time spent on learning the software as well as I know LW. Especially when LW _can_ do what I want even now, sometimes it may be a bit more painful than let's say with XSI but then again, some things are a lot less painful with LW.

Back to the LW9 issue though, I haven't yet decided if I buy the upgrade or not. Like I said, LW can already do the things I want and I want to see if LW9 really does all it is supposed to do. Sure looks promising though and the upgrade can be fit into my budget. Just have to know more...

colkai
02-14-2006, 09:22 AM
this is great stuff.

tho what i really want to see in lgihtwave and which cant be THAT hard to impliment is a Hinge Dynamic.
so i can have things danlge and have doors and window panles sway ans such based on movement. now that is hwat i really want.
Like the idea of that, but I'm wondering if this isn't already possible using hard-body dynamics and a wind controller? You'd expect it would be, but I agree, cool for creepy house effects with a wind billowing through the window, making the shutters bounce and the curtains blow at the same time. :)

colkai
02-14-2006, 09:24 AM
I'd suggest to mind your squabs. I am sorry for your myopia.
Kinda makes my point yah? whatever ... outta here

PaZ
02-14-2006, 11:25 AM
I don't think it's possible for Newtek to go in a wrong direction, I think the main issue for a lot of people is the time it takes to rewrite the application the way they are doing.


Hence my personal POV:

1- Time is the key, so team should be the largest possible. This means lot of money.
2- How to make a lot of money ? Selling more and more licenses.
3- How to sell more licenses right now ? adding the most selling-effective features (beside the core rewrite btw).
4- Which are these features ? The ones which appeal to the largest userbase possible (not LW only).
5- Which are right now these features ? CA, FX, Gaming ? Sure not.
Larges world market is Viz, hands down. It's alone 10 times all the other together.
So: target Viz heavily now, and not because LW users are all viz users like me, but because this is a key-move (maybe the best one i can see) to have the right resources to make better the whole software.
LWcad was a first good step (it should be seamlessly integrated in the future), but hope NT considers this carefully.

Paolo Zambrini

opera
02-14-2006, 12:31 PM
Just a word to thanks evryone talking here and sharing opinions.
Thanks to Ortiz to keep this post alive: as you can see we can talk, disagree, discuss.
I learn a lot from LW user "profil" in this thread (we are all differents - with different experiences).

We can be respectful to each other. I appreciate.
One of the more intersesting post I ever read.

Continue please!

sinbad
02-14-2006, 03:10 PM
I agree. Last night I was thinking about why there is so much passion over a mere "product". I mean if you don't like coke, then drink pepsi. But it is the investment in the tool, not just the tool itself that defines its value.

After learning LW for 3-4 years I switched to Maya for CA training at AM. But I still go back to Lightwave for freelance work as I know it so well (ok, and own a licence) but the licence isnt the only reason. Its like an old friend to me and I have invested a good chunk of my life in this tool and I want more than anything to see it respected and valued in the business. Yes the art takes place inside your head, but artists have their favourite brushes and sportsman their favourite bit of kit.

PaZ
02-14-2006, 04:19 PM
I agree. Last night I was thinking about why there is so much passion over a mere "product". I mean if you don't like coke, then drink pepsi. But it is the investment in the tool, not just the tool itself that defines its value.

After learning LW for 3-4 years I switched to Maya for CA training at AM. But I still go back to Lightwave for freelance work as I know it so well (ok, and own a licence) but the licence isnt the only reason. Its like an old friend to me and I have invested a good chunk of my life in this tool and I want more than anything to see it respected and valued in the business. Yes the art takes place inside your head, but artists have their favourite brushes and sportsman their favourite bit of kit.

Amen.
Shall this cut definitively the non-argument of "if you dont like LW, then change software".

Paolo

stooch
02-14-2006, 06:48 PM
Well said Paolo..... (100% agree)

To me that whole Marketing spin on 3rd parties is a complete cop-out.....
NT have assured us over the last 2 years that 3rd parties, SDK and core changes were indeed a priority, and they would be working closely with these people to ensure a bright future with better 3rd party support.......

Now just before LW9, we find very little if any benefits have been made, in particular with things like FPrime, and NT's stance is now to improve thier own tools, and worry about others later....... No Shader sharing, no volumetrics...

For me the thing that has kept myself and many others struggling along with LW,
for the last 12months or more is the fact that FPrime is a market leader and something the others don't have.... But really it's limited, and if NT won't help support others tools, i don't see how i can continue to support thiers....

My own opinion is not what feature LW9 will have, but what changes are made to it's architecture, to ensure it grows with it's market and technology.... LW has not done this
despite telling us it was indeed a priority for at least 3 years now......

This is a shame, because i have a love affair with LW, despite buying a new licence of XSI
and after seeing that message about FPrime, and LW's embarrasing backflip, i'll now upgrade to Modo 201 instead..... As LW9 offers only APS and Ngons that i find attractive...
And Modo201 has them and much much more...

I think NT have shot themselves in the foot, the core and SDK enhancments
needed to be a priority if they want to compete with the others...

Hell Maxon, have done a great job for allowing Vray support, Max has Brazil, Maya Turtle...
LW has FPrime, but NT will ignore it anyway..... In like 3 or 4 versions of LW, Viper has almost no useful changes, and has been left to die. GI is slow.
The person that made LW's renderer what it is/was has left and already made a better version in just 18months......

In 2 full versions with a new development team, NT could not even add the current shader system to be supported by third parties... This to me shows, how archaic and obselete LW's architecture has become, and i really feel i'm being flogged a dead horse, with band-aids...
While the real innovation and technology has moved forward via Modo..

I think the marketing spin applied by Jay Roth and NT are nothing more than a nice way of admiting failure at not being able open their core to 3rd parties.... Sad day really.....

with all due respect. why dont you let the work by LW users speak for itself. you are so loud about how its archaic and obsolete. yet its users still crank out kickass art.

stooch
02-14-2006, 07:18 PM
oh i dont think the warez crowd remain silent on the boards - certainly seen afew posts from 15 year kids who talking about there personal experiance with maya max cinema lightwave and however many others you care to mention

but there are probally alot of legitimate lw users that have never gone near this or any other board becasue unlike alot of us ( guilty as charged )they aren't so lazy as to not read the manual =) and they dont feel like complaining about what they are using

i have been using LW for over 10 years.

i started participating on these forums (Actually posting) about 6 months ago. same goes for the NT forum.

elfdestruct
02-14-2006, 08:20 PM
Wow, nine pages of bloviating. I say scratch it but for the NewTek replies.

When I see "Information" in the title I'm highly unenthused to then see a tome of speculation & tangential whipsawing.

richcz3
02-15-2006, 05:17 PM
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!" sound familiar?

For a FEW people it's like a real bad relationship they can't get over. They've been spurned and always find a reason to take a shot. They read between the lines and are always looking for that achilles heal to say "I Told you so..."I Told you so!!" You can't reason with people who are intent with looking for the bad in everything. Whatever is good about LW9 they are out to see the flaws.

Megalodon
02-18-2006, 10:56 AM
Given that, perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that even the most cursory consideration of these facts would make it nearly impossible to jump to the conclusions so many have jumped to in this thread. All the evidence points in the opposite direction of the kinds of assumptions that some folks are making.

Uhhh... pretty typical if you ask me. It's the SOS around here. But then again, I'm used to it!

Megalodon

sinbad
02-19-2006, 12:22 AM
Wow, nine pages of bloviating. I say scratch it but for the NewTek replies.

When I see "Information" in the title I'm highly unenthused to then see a tome of speculation & tangential whipsawing.

Thats because its really easy to open up a reply box and type stuff. Handy thing about these forum thingies.

EDIT: Ok what the heck is "bloviating"? It sounds painful.

Freak!!
02-19-2006, 09:50 PM
Well, so far they have not said that. In fact the Feature Preview specifically mentions that improvements have been made to allow additional information from volumetrics. Doesn't that sound like Worley's getting what he needs/wants for volumetrics to be accessible for realtime previews? And FYI...volumetrics are already available in FPrime Render.

FYI.... Volumetrics are not available in Fprime Render....

Specifically, Hypervoxels are available in Fprime renderer, not volumetrics at all...
(and this only happend after i made NT re-release 8.3 (801 build)
As the initial 8.3 did not have the changes that NT said it did.

I can not render Taiki, i can not use ground fog, i cannot use Inifnite Plane and i can't use HD Instance with Fprime Renderer or previewer Even stuff like Skytracer is not officially supported by Fprime... It just uses flaky hacks to access it....

The included updates to the SDK, escpecially in regards to volumetrics....
are almost comical.... And will provide no REAL advantage to Fprime and volumetrics.
Only one change to the Volumeterics.

"The volumetric access structure has been expanded to include the current pixel position and the current ray recursion level."

So that's the BIG changes Worley and us have all been waiting for......??

So to answer your question, the LW9 SDK update offers almost nothing helpful for Fprime...
Only that NEW Shaders should eventually be available to FPrime and HD Instance...
But all shaders, HD Instance, and Fprime would have to be rewritten to take advantage..

The fact that volumetriecs could not be shared, and shaders needed to be completely rewritten, (as they could not be shared) basically shows LW's core and SDK is rigid, and hard to expand.... And that waiting around for NT to do anything useful with LW, is pointless...

Even the new included OGL GLSL Shaders and photoshop blending modes, that were introduced in LW8.5 and were meant to be expanded for LW9..... Have not appeared in the LW9SDK.....(surprise!)

I'm glad i didn't pre-order LW9...... 2months late, and it's only a beta....
And does not offer anywhere need the expansion for Fprime and Kray etc...

If stuff like Shaders and Volumetrics had improved enough to allow me to use
FPrime with HD Instance or Taiki and FPrime...... I'd love LW9....
But they didn't, and i don't... And that's my opinion....

Phyrea
02-19-2006, 11:30 PM
FYI.... Volumetrics are not available in Fprime Render....
Specifically, Hypervoxels are available in Fprime renderer, not volumetrics at all...

Well, Hypervoxels are volumetrics, so yeah - volumetrics are available in FPrime Render. Just not all of them. It doesn't matter if it was "hacked" or not, they work and that's what matters to an end user.

The fact that volumetriecs could not be shared basically shows LW's core and SDK is rigid, and hard to expand.... And that waiting around for NT to do anything useful with LW, is pointless...
I think that's why NewTek is changing the core. The old one, built by a development team that doesn't even work at NewTek anymore, is outdated and limited by design. Hence why they're progressively rewriting the application. Isn't that what you would want them to do?

No one is asking you or anyone else to "wait around" while they work. The application is still quite capable as it stands, and certainly capable with the vast number of improvements being added in LW9. If those improvements don't suit you, so be it. Skip this version and upgrade to version 10 (assuming you're happy by then). NewTek has a generous upgrade policy from any previous version of LW.

bobakabob
02-20-2006, 12:19 AM
It is the same prior to every release of LW. The very same people meet here and start the "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!"- whining and every release they say "I am going to switch to package X, because LW does not deliver this or that, we are all doomed blah, blah, blah".
Well, see you all again here when LW 10.0 comes out and I know for sure that it will (despite all the naysayers here).




Well said, Elmar. There's a difference between whining and constructive criticism. There are plenty of forums to post helpful suggestions regarding how to improve the software.

I know many Lightwave users who are very positive and looking forward to the new features in LW9. Sure, it'll fall short of making the bed and doing the housework, but as my old politics teacher used to say, "You pays your money, you makes your choice."

HowardM
02-20-2006, 10:23 AM
this is great stuff.

tho what i really want to see in lgihtwave and which cant be THAT hard to impliment is a Hinge Dynamic.
so i can have things danlge and have doors and window panles sway ans such based on movement. now that is hwat i really want.
it is something lightwave has not yet gotten a hold of which other programs have had for a while.

i am jsut hopeing that they will impliment a hinge dynamic sometime in the next few updates.


thanks

you can do this now with HardFX...read up about the Spring and Fix modes...

and as much as id love to be my usual naysayer self ;), especially without seeing much improvement in the FX side of things, i honestly have to say im impressed with what NT has done in 9 and look forward to 10....Nodal, Subd Divisions with weights, up to date Shading models....really cool improvements!

Chuck Baker
02-20-2006, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Etomthnu Telos
this is great stuff.

tho what i really want to see in lgihtwave and which cant be THAT hard to impliment is a Hinge Dynamic.
so i can have things danlge and have doors and window panles sway ans such based on movement. now that is hwat i really want.
it is something lightwave has not yet gotten a hold of which other programs have had for a while.

i am jsut hopeing that they will impliment a hinge dynamic sometime in the next few updates.


thanks
you can do this now with HardFX...read up about the Spring and Fix modes...

and as much as id love to be my usual naysayer self ;), especially without seeing much improvement in the FX side of things, i honestly have to say im impressed with what NT has done in 9 and look forward to 10....Nodal, Subd Divisions with weights, up to date Shading models....really cool improvements!

Actually, hinges, clamshell type items to animate, etc, are among the intentions for IKB and Bone Dynamics...

Seen the Animation Path Wind Mode vid yet, Howard? :)

Nemoid
02-20-2006, 09:21 PM
Rewriting the core of a so old app like Lw, is not an easy task. I believe 8.x cycle was a preliminary work. actually, not everyone noticed we jumped rapidly from 8.5 to a 9.0 release, without intermediary releases : 8.6 anyone?:D

Nt is doing this rewriting on a step by step basis, because , disappearing from the market for something like 2 -3 years and no morte touch Lw until the new one was ready would have killed the product. they're not Alias or Avid that had soem great probs with teh Sumatra affair, and they're not a new company like Lux that can only write from scratch a new app. they have an existing product to mantain and update.

So, looking to what it seems to be implemented in 9.0 its clear its not all there, but we don't know how much the core has changed, and what will be allowed from that work in the enear future.

For example, with 9.0 we'll have real shaders. actually, this kind of surfacing is the one that should be handled from a thing like F prime, and will also useful fro third party renderers.

in what has been said in this thread, i agree mainly with some things:

SDK is extremelly important
to allow third party programmers to do new cool projects for Lw. Lw has some really great plugs, but with a really opened SDK, NT would help them to make even more wonders.


Viz market is huge, and Lw should surely raise its quality for this kinda work. cad tools are really cool, i do hope to see em integrated (actually i would like the upcoming 2.0 integrated in soem future lw version. Being good in that field , Lw would sell more and more copies. also pay attention to the autodesk colossus. they rule in this market, and the risk is that it would be closed to Lw forever.


external renderers. : lw has always been the app with one of the best bult in renderers in the market. surely you guys will enhance it greatly making it faster and faster. Fantastic !
but giving complete support to third party renderers opens alot of possibilities and is surely strategic.

for example, people used to work in, say, Mental ray, will reach to work with Lw too if there's a version for it at their disposal.also Lw would fit better in pipelines based in other renderers.

look at standards the more you can, without drop in the field of a slow workflow.
originally, Lw adopted some non standard way to work and approach just to be faster. but thinking ahead, with the right accessibility of tools in the UI and a logic workflow, u get simple,and fast.

PaZ
02-20-2006, 10:58 PM
Nemoid

i wrote some analogue observation somewhere in a forum (maybe even here, i havent loked back), some days ago. More and more users get to these conclusions, mostly regarding industry standard tools and Viz issue.
This means 2 things:
1- these arguments are very near to an "objective" truth behins POVs.
2- we italian people tends to be a bit monotonous sometime ;)

Paolo

HowardM
02-21-2006, 10:03 AM
Actually, hinges, clamshell type items to animate, etc, are among the intentions for IKB and Bone Dynamics...

Seen the Animation Path Wind Mode vid yet, Howard? :)

Ah ya, forgot about IKB and BD...never really played with them much...going to have to give them a whirl...

Yep, seen the vids, Im very excited to try out the new FX tools and all the other goodies...as I said before, Im quite impressed Chuck! Keep up the good work! :D

Ed Bittner
02-21-2006, 12:12 PM
I guess I should chime in. Will LW ever be all things to all people? No. Not 1 other App will either. However, we're in it for the long haul. Been with LW since 5.6, and are looking forward to v.9. Lw, right now, does everything we want it to, although we still have 7.5 in our pipeline. Not being in the motion picture biz, NTSC, or even HD right now is cool with us. LW owns Fri. night on the SCI-FI channel, and with the compositing apps and extra blah-blah, we can get the job done. We don't have a crew large enough to write proprietary anything, (like some other apps. force companies to do). Anyone remember the Dune TV series? The movie Serenity?
One word. LIGHTWAVE........
See you all in the future.
E.

Nemoid
02-21-2006, 01:34 PM
Nemoid

i wrote some analogue observation somewhere in a forum (maybe even here, i havent loked back), some days ago. More and more users get to these conclusions, mostly regarding industry standard tools and Viz issue.
This means 2 things:
1- these arguments are very near to an "objective" truth behins POVs.

Paolo

LOL
u're right !
we mainly share the same opinions about Lw, and its market : also, as a 3D forum founder, (lw related)I learnt how huge the viz market is in reality , in Italy and into other countries.
I quite didn't know that previously.
and many users use Lw in this field , due also to its rendering. But apps like Max, Maya and C4D are diffused alot. You know Lw isn't diffused like them here.

Personally, i'm not a Viz user, but surely, if Lw has a market to mantain/re-create i do know Viz is that one.
i'd like CA to be a better market in Italy, but it isn't like that, for now.
given also the fact that CAD related tools and behaviour enhance modelling workflow even for other kinda tasks, that's why its a good strategy to address that market.


2- we italian people tends to be a bit monotonous sometime ;)

Maybe.

i find its better if things are repeated many times !

Core rewrite, Integration , SDK, CAD related tools , CA, External renderings...

Core rewrite, Integration , SDK, CAD related tools , CA, External renderings...

Core rewrite, Integration , SDK, CAD related tools , CA, External renderings...

Core rewrite, Integration , SDK, CAD related tools , CA, External renderings...

Core rewrite, Integration , SDK, CAD related tools , CA, External renderings...

Core rewrite, Integration , SDK, CAD related tools , CA, External renderings...


this is the Mantra ! :D

OK, NT keep up your good work.
this morning i saw the excellent vid about stress maps.
it was cool ! :)

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