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Taron333
02-08-2006, 11:43 PM
In our latest dash of development we've written massive improvements into the shading, rendering, interface and saving sections. From having the standart material to be perfectly sufficient for all shading needs I can spontaneously think of to a new edit sphere that acts far more natural and allows for even new comfort in editing to improved antialiasing for HDR image lighting and actually anything that shows an illumination above 1.0. And that's hardly beginning to name the countless improvements and additions we've made in the last 3 months. We're having one of our most productive times in a long time. The particles alone where a massive push, even while those have invited a change that goes a lot deeper and has the valid potential to speed up the entire and already fast rendering engine! But because we're covering such a large amount of little and bigger corrections and improvements and so forth in pretty much every field, we're discovering potential innovations in quite a few sections that our "we just HAVE to do that"-list is swelling again.

Our current approach to things has become a little more cautious in terms of releases, though, and we're trying to run our versions by the beta testers progressively to not overwhelm them with changes and see piece by piece if anything goes wrong and, well, you know what betas are for! Now we're facing a brand new problem. We're developing so fast that we can hardly keep up with releasing stuff. The moment we release a version, we have already added a whole bunch of things that will have to go into the following release. It's been three times like that already in the last 2 months, I believe. So we're going strong and there's a lot of wonderful stuff happening inside. I will keep a few things secret, but I can already tell you that the shading has reached a new level that could be considered an improvement on the very foundation of contemporary shading concepts. In principle it still has the same parameters you know, except for the additional tintings for everything tintable (reflections, transparency, translucency...), but it behaves more natural than ever when it comes to glossiness of the surface and the diffuse shading. I believe, renders of artists will look a lot better by default and feel a lot more natural and coherent. We're introducing dimension to elements that were left without any before and still are everywhere else. Things are not kept a secret to introduce suspense, (hints serve that purpose! :p) but to prevent locking us into something while we're still adding to it! Although I would love to hear somebody say I'd be teasing, I don't mean to, but instead I want to make you understand, we're alive and kicking and even stronger than ever!
I'm these days just a little bit distracted with another wicked development, but it all will soon merge to go hand in hand and there's no telling on what this will mean to the near future! Completely cryptical, huh? Well, it's some realtime stuff and so forth...you'll see.
Oh, and did I mention...nah, I better don't....that could become a bit of hairy thing.

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So, what does this all mean...well...this means: refined editing of materials in terms of replacing, right button menu improvements, list organisation and all of that is something we will get to before 2008. Maybe even before 2007. Maybe even earlier than that...hmmm.... But as Thomas was saying already, with our current slow development and such...oh wait, hey Thomas, I havn't heard from you in almost half a year!? How are you? Havn't seen you on the beta either. Weren't you XSI happy for a long time now? I'm so surprised you still grace us with a sweet comment of yours! We missed you like crazy. We had to start torturing ourselves! It has become ugly really! We need you, oh mighty destroyer of pleasant motivation and provider of pain and anger! Come serve us with:buttrock: unjustified outrage!

<This is Taron's sense of humor . . . These dates are in reference to something Thomas said in an earlier post and are out of context. . . and are NOT to be taken literally! - Wegg>
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Then again, why don't you go on XSIing for a while, we're still busy. Plus, we really appreciate someone taking care of the competition there! ;)

AH...enough for a "good morning" post from me at ...what...eh...almost 5pm...oh dear. I currently live in 30 hour cycles, I think...but it's crazy fun, toO! :wip: :twisted: :lightbulb: :applause: :scream:

This is a big software, even without modeling, and the things that we're doing are often like squeezing a pimple on a blue whale. Yet, lately we've been reshaping its fins, altering the inner organs and even added to the DNA of it. It's good to hear people complain about the very same things I'm upset about, because that justifies for us to put some greater focus on that specific thing again. We'll have to finish up our current main focus points and then we'll take care of the material issues. There are a bunch of things that need to be done.

Thanx everyone! :thumbsup:

Taron

Parsec3d
02-08-2006, 11:59 PM
No Man, Tank you !! ... now if I only had a chance to beta this stuff, well one can dream,
can't?

:)

Layer01
02-09-2006, 12:23 AM
cool. its nice to hear that pmg is still alive.

Doug Macary
02-09-2006, 12:26 AM
I, for one, don't appeciate the sarcasm aimed at Thomas. I beleive that his frustration was justified and he spoke on the forum for Messiah users. I have ssen him help a lot of people on this list and he shouldn't be dissed.

My 2 cents

Layer01
02-09-2006, 12:36 AM
edited cause i'm too dumb to read lol

Grgeon
02-09-2006, 12:41 AM
If i've decyfered this post correctly, and i think i have, there are some sweet things coming up for messiah! Thanks for the tease Taron.

George

Taron333
02-09-2006, 01:56 AM
I, for one, don't appeciate the sarcasm aimed at Thomas. I beleive that his frustration was justified and he spoke on the forum for Messiah users. I have ssen him help a lot of people on this list and he shouldn't be dissed.

My 2 cents

He sure did a lot of great things even, but why on earth must he always insult us even while he doesn't even know what's going on right now. Messiah went through very turbulent times in the past, worse even times of seemingly standing still. But that is beginning to be YEARS ago in the past and we've changed that already dramatically. In fact we're having a blast doing what we're doing and that is in fact a stunning amount of work. We're improving on levels that havn't even been touched for years and decades in most if not all other packages, while we're improving on all the basic things that have been bothersome to artists as much as to ourselves. We're as active as developers could possibly be and as motivated as developers should be. It's a shame to see how Thomas than carelessly walzes in and disses US without even careing to know what we're actually doing. His little outbursts can be mistaken for the truth and most likely even are and despite the help he has given to those, who already bought messiah, he alienated plenty of artists, who end up receiving exactly the wrong impression of the team behind the software. If I was reading about some 3d package that does sound interesting to me, but then read that the development team is lazy and useless and what ever else Thomas feels like calling us, I would be concerned enough to look elsewhere instead. And it's simply nonsense. I probably shouldn't acknowledge it at all, but damn, it's just such a sad thing that a man with that much energy wastes it on being negative seemingly for the very hell of it. Not to mention the level of unfairness towards us, as we do put simply all our energy into it and that even with great pleasure, even when it is hard and even when it doesn't let us sleep at normal times. I see what we're accomplishing and I am really proud of us and proud of messiah as it shapes up to be what I was always wishing for it to become. As far as I'm concerned, everything I was seeing in it before I even joined in is becoming true. So many people don't know it, yet, or havn't realized it, yet, but it's already for a while one of the most productive tools for animation and even rendering. But currently it is bursting forward to be clearly a massive innovator and reliable companion for full production in these sections. Artists can truely explore with ease and great gratification the nature of rendering objects, creating their shading and texturing. All the things it had been very nice for are now simply becoming stunning. But this happens in so many areas within messiah for a while. While I'm just happy and excited about everything we improve we get hit over the head for everything we didn't get to, yet. I have to admit, it's wondersome at times what seemingly simple things don't seem to get repaired, but it never is really simple and there are complicated things that are connected with those simple things, which even are in the process of being solved and/or improved. Let's say for instance material editing. We've just dealt with the materials themselves, changing the standart material to be completely outfitted with everything it actually needs to have. This meant an addition of features as well as connections and parameters. Changing material types would now have to take those new elements in regard. A lot of these new parameters and parameter adjustments made internal rendering changes necessary, improving the computation of the shading itself, the most inner procedures of the rendering. So a simple change on the outside requires a whole slur of alterations all the way to the core. This is NOT always the case, but especially in terms of materials it's something important to know!

Ah well, what really matters is that we're doing our work and we're doing it with great passion and dedication and I've begun taking it personally if somebody attacks our integrity for reasons that have lost validation for a long time already with the appearant urge to chase away people, taking away their chance to voluntarily enrich their lifes as artists with our fruit of passion (hoho...hammm....ah..can I say that?...but it sounds so right!). :argh:

So I'm spending all day today (the "Let Tommy upset me"-day) writing silly replies to decent requests. What surprises me is that this ended up being in "news from pmG". I wasn't putting it there as far as I knew...but hey...it's some kind of news, I guess.

More?
Hmm....?
Nah, I better get back to work! :wip:

Taron

opera
02-09-2006, 02:36 AM
I am new to this section of Cgtalk ( PMG). I am intersted by your product ( I am reading the posts of the forum to have an idea of it) and I haven't decided yet to invest in messiah. Some points make me doubts.



Honestly, I don't know Messiah, but I have read that the documentation is "bad" ( missing features or not enought documention (too old) , etc... . People seems to buy Coleman(excuse me if I typel it wrong) to learn how to animate under messiah.... means to have to buy for 100$ of Tutorials to complete the missing documentations.

Will you update this part in the next realase: Will you do reformat the documentation and add more complete tutorials ?
There are no "free" tutorials across the net about messiah ... (only the tuto on PMG website are available) And that's scare me .. looks like the messiah community is small...and not so active. (sorry I don't mean to be rude or to offend them).

Seems you spend a lot of work on the render engine. I am personaly interested only by the animation part ( Do you have done improvements to this section? )

Did you fix this interface pblm with "dual screen" and wacom driver... openGL issues ..etc..


And finaly will you do promotional price for the next release ?




thanks for your answers.

ps: sorry for my language (english is not my native language) I don't want to sound rude, I am looking for an animation software like yours ( I have to make my choise between 3 packages). I will wait few days until you post a complete list of the new features. (hope it will be soon, because I have to make a choise(the good one :))

Taron333
02-09-2006, 03:38 AM
The section I personally favor for a while now is definitely the rendering without a doubt. Not only because I always felt the greatest needs there, looking at all the existing software out there and because I understood the potential we're having in our system and its openess to animate geometry as well as textures, but also because I always felt very comfortable with the animation tools and features we're having. After all it was those, which were the building blocks of the whole software and which made it a name to begin with. With all the additional features that came into the mix over time, possibilities just became more appearant and people started to a degree focusing on the stuff they'd still want as opposed to exploiting the great features that are already in there.
Honestly, I personally have not once really looked at the documentation and I'm certainly not the person to talk about it, but I know very much about the tutorials I have to prepare for all the stuff I took part in, not because I feel professionally obligated, but because I want to help artists to come into the joy of using the stuff as strong as they can so I can get to see what you come up with! After having dealt with the particles so deeply, we came up with a system that allows for such great variety of uses and excellent speed and quality that I just can't wait to see people do crazy stuff with it.
As for standart animation tools and why I don't feel like I'm the right person to contribute tutorials. I'm doing my work in a very casual and natural way that goes extremely quick and allows for very organic motions, but to the eyes of someone, who doesn't know in depth what I'm doing, my setups might look like pure hell. I don't like making handles, I like to grab exactly the kind of part I want to animate. I love using expressions to tie motions together for a more natural process of animation, but the creation of all of that is just as organic and may end up looking like a compost hill....or organic garbage pit...hahahaha....ha...haha...ah...awhhh...so I don't feel adequate to teach people about some of the more glorious animation features we're having, like the armatures and such, because I simply hardly use them. Every once in a while I play around with it and I'm fascinated on how great it is to deal with them and the nice and neat type of setup one can make that way. But when it comes down to it, I simple do what I want so streamlined and with little to no obstacle, that I just don't need it. I'd actually love to teach people how to NOT NEED things they actually may not need and how to simply do exactly what they want to do instead. But that's almost arrogant I'm afraid, hence I usually rather retreat into what I know I can contribute for sure!
I hope, Fred Tepper will bounce into the thread to not only tell you what to expect next, but also to remind me of what I promissed to do...I'm so submerged into my programming that I may have forgotten one or two things.

Oh, talking about what I would love to teach, I would love to remind artists, that the urge to create and the urge to explore are absolutely best friends! The documentation that exists already is most certainly covering the major features as well as the principles behind most and should be more than enough to get started with it! I think once you've put your first set of bones into your geometry and start playing with it, you'll already see why it is such a smooth ride to get cruising inside of messiah. Don't be anxious to uncover it all right away. I hope you forgive me out there, if I say this one now, but honestly and sincerely: I can not even remember when I was last running into a dead end anywhere within messiah!
And don't you dare remind me! :D
It's kind of ironic, if you think about it, that it is actually simplicity that makes this package great, yet, it is more documentation that is missing....kinda strange I think.

Here's the thing, though, I have lobbied for it, even while I haven't followed up on it, yet, myself, to have a big and shiny tutorial section on our website. More so even a little forum on there for direct exchange. What we miss most is more images and animations coming from artists of all levels out there, we are hoping to encourage them to come forward and show their stuff with having a stronger online support & artist exchange section. We have a whole bunch of high-profile users' and visual effects studio's work on display, but I think it would be fantastic to see more aspiring artists show their stuff. See where we can support them! Simplicity is a fantastic thing to have for production, but it's just as fantastic to have it when you trying to get into a new field or trying to excel into the professional world.

Yeah, yah, yaya...it's a road to take and a way ahead, but we're like smack in the middle of it and just have to keep the throttle pinned down. :argh:

Thank you very much for being so direct and making it again a good reminder of what artists are looking for right now. When you're on the developing side it can really happen that you underestimate the need for documentation beyond the basics. Bad excuse, though, because we've heard it before...argh... :wip:

Well, thanx and just go and buy it! It's a great ride and I easly dare to promiss that you won't regret it! Not to mention that we do have a decent support team. If there's anything specific you run into, which you do not understand or with what you have a problem with, just go ahead and ask us directly! That should NEVER feel uncomfortable. Unless you have developed any kind of frustration and waited until you felt like rambling and shouting and calling us names and such....ahm....that...ahm...never happened....nope....ahm....shshshshsh! :thumbsup:
No really, we're there for you making the software, we should be there for you using it, too! :)

Taron

Adam-Han
02-09-2006, 04:58 AM
Exciting stuff! Good to see you around Taron :)
-Adam

SpikeWorx
02-09-2006, 06:43 AM
....and all of that is something we will get to before 2008. Maybe even before 2007. Maybe even earlier than that...hmmm....
2008 ? :argh:
I was hoping for the next release in 2006. At the latest .... :cry:

Back to the dungeon! No bread and water for you today!
;)

More important than anything else. Make it rock solid ! Fight the bugs ! :beer:

Wegg
02-09-2006, 07:08 AM
I'm 99% sure Taron was just poking fun at something Thomas said. That is NOT to be taken literally.

Taron333
02-09-2006, 07:31 AM
...let me repeat that:

HAHAHAHAHA! :applause:

Taron333
02-09-2006, 08:51 AM
By the way, I'm not sure if everyone has realized that already, but there are 16 tutorial videos on our website: www.projectmessiah.com (http://www.projectmessiah.com)

I'm sure that most of you have seen that already, but for those, who are new and don't know if there's anything, there's most certainly a good way to start looking!
I'm also absolutely convinced that very soon more videos will go there!

Taron

opera
02-09-2006, 09:22 AM
Thanks for your answer.

you seem impassioned by your work. But I prefer behave carefully and to judge the software with "tests"(for real) . I have been despointed by other softwares (I hope that a demo will be available soon). I understand the power of messiah, but I am not a technician : Sometime good tutorials and a good documentation could help (sorry maybe I am an old ( old fashion).. but I like to read documentations before to open the software. (I use computer but I still read books ;). note: I know you can learn by "tweaking", but it's good to have a good doc, to help you time to time to find your answers ...

what interests me, it is to take in hand the software immediately and create.

I know you like the render part... (but for me there are so many render engines, it's just one more on the market). sorry to sound rude but I prefere to be honest. (they are too much work to reach the level of a renderer like Renderman or MentalR).
Since messiah can export to Maya, Max, Lw ... I think it's better to stay focussed on the animation market (too much render engine are comming too ... ) but yes ! YES ! it's good to have his own render engine ( I can understand you... I am sure I will do the same if I was you).

There is so many work to do ( I know a bit of Kaydara,( now Motion builder) ... ie: the workflow is very impressive)), I know your history with LW but Lw was not the best exemple to follow for GUI ;). I am a LW user ;) (note: your GUI si better than LW)

When I read you, I imagine a big messiah community... but on the forum I see few posts , few answers, small gallery... Do you know why ?

My last question:

Do you know when I can get a feature list of the next version or a free demo version ?

thanks for your time.

Taron333
02-09-2006, 10:01 AM
Once the next official release comes out we will certainly update the demos as well. At least I would believe so!

As for the rendering. If you read some of the post it will become somewhat clear that our render engine has many points that can make it very appealing to those, who were used to mental ray and co. because it has a rather special ability when it comes to displacements in terms of speed and quality and has appearantly one of the fastest monte carlo GI implementations out there. Some of the improvements we've just made actually give it another unique edge, but that's not really the kind of thing I was planning to tell you. I was planning to tell you about the one giant advantage it has to have our own rendering engine and that is the direct tie to the animation over expressions. The ease of use of the expressions makes them very appealing for animation setups and therefore equally appealing to address shading matters at the same time. Therefore you can easily setup animated displacements, which allow for an unparalleled access to highest detail levels for animation without sacrificing any time during the process of animating itself. It does require a certain level of imagination at this point, but we're on the verge of implementing realtime displacements for the viewport. At least it is our intention and we've already made plans for it. It enables artists to handle the highest levels of quality with an ease that makes it accessable to anyone at home as well as speeding up tremendously the feature film quality required in VFX studios! Sure there are plenty of render engines, but it's about they way you can make them work for you.

As for documentation, have you ever seen our documentation? As far as I know, we do have a documentation of the software that should cover all the features. Most comlains had been made about the API's documentation and you don't sound like someone, who's interested in writing plugins?! Even if you were, the complains were about very specific issues with the API that are simply not covered entirely, which is bad, but not vital for the "everyday plugin coding". Although it would be clearly a thing we will take care of, I'm sure it's not what you're missing, am I right?

I insist on honesty and therefore welcome your general approach very much, but I would recommend you to follow through with your research before you come to any potentially incorrect conclusions.

As for our community, it's a weired thing, because a large number of artists are using messiah for animation only, because of its heritage so to say and they use it virtually as a plugin. As a result they would rather be found in forums for other packages, which they use it for. It's kind of a sad thing. The same thing is also responsible for the lack of images for our gallery which brings me to another idea I just had a few posts down. It's a gallery for all the messiah users to post their stuff, no matter what level they are at! It would not only help to get a better idea of how many people are actually using it, but also help us to support them even more! I will see that I prepare some kind of an official post for that request! Thank you for reminding me again! :thumbsup:

I'm passionate about almost everything I'm doing, except maybe dealing with taxes but including grocery shopping, if I ever do that myself. It's because there's something fascinating and beautiful and even thrilling in almost everything a human being can or has to do. Eventually everything gets perceived, collected, connected, recovered and transformed into what we call our creativity. There's nothing out there, that doesn't feed the mind and enrich it's sortiment to draw from. Even your posts! :D
It is a special privilege to make active use of all these impressions in more than just one form of creative output. Being able to program allows for exploring ones own perception and level of comprehension and to enlarge and refine the set of tools to create even more fluently what all the impressions have grown to to demand from an artist. I mean, I see all the little things that make something real or believable or even simply enjoyable and I so want to make it possible to simply create them without having to improvise on levels that could best be handled by the logic and 'understanding' of the software itself, as well as contradictory to that the freedom to improvise with more sophisticated access to the ability of a machine to render images. Sounds all a little to esotherical? Hmmm....it's a thing that is a little tough to put into words for me. Since I was now finally spending all day with words as opposed to working on the software, I might as well say as much as I could possible want to right now. SOOOO....all of these kind of desires are going right into messiah, not because I care only about you, but because I care about what the software can do for myself. And in doing so, I'm trying to make it so that not only I understand it, but so that everyone can have access to the little wonders that can happen inside. In some regards there's still a long way to go, but in many others we're already there actually. You could right now open up messiah and start submerging yourself in a world only framed by your own ideas, which will find themselve inspired to much greater dimensions once you're discovering the simplicity that could guide you through the most complex constructions. It doesn't bury you in hidden menues or tons of features with names you'd only find in a library of physics literature.

Ehh...before I really make a fool out of myself...one more little note:

If you just want to get started, just look at the tutorial videos on our site. They are very good! :arteest:

Taron

SpikeWorx
02-09-2006, 11:01 AM
... but we're on the verge of implementing realtime displacements for the viewport. At least it is our intention and we've already made plans for it...

Argh. Taron, bitte benutze Absätze
:deal:

Bei deinen Romanen springt mein gequältes Auge immer in die falsche Zeile :D



Wow, that sounds great!! RT-Displacements... go PmG go :buttrock:

P.S.: I like your detailed responses. Donīt stop :applause:

Labuzz
02-09-2006, 11:21 AM
the question is when? hehe...."We ll let you know...."
Anyway that would be cool I really like "textured point " in lw.

opera
02-09-2006, 11:25 AM
hahah ! thanks again.

I don't know why ... the last time I felt like you ( coming on the net and "typing" text like crazy ..), it was when I have done a lot of work ( working night and day) and finished it and gave it to the client ....
Do you have compiled a final release yesterday ?!! (a gold version ?!!).
Maybe that why you have time to tchat on the forum ;) need to leave the pressure go...


Ok I am convinced , I will give a try ( I will look for an europeen dealer.. in France, if I found ... to not pay extra taxes)

I will buy a workstation to test your render engine, but I let you know that I am a render engine's specialist ( I render a lot ;) and for differents jobs (commercials, tv, movie, video clip, etc... then if I can't produce with it ( in a serious pipeline as a render engine ), I will let you know...if not I will let you know too !).

Most of render engines are good for print .. but are "obsolete" when animation comes ..

I will not judge the demo (2.2) because it will be unfair, I will wait for this new release.
As you understand I give chance to every packages ( I am not a Fanboy :)), I have bought some softwares and I have stopped the "update" step.
Because:
- no frequent update
- constant bugs ( serious bugs uncorrected, unable to do my work )
- no closer work with developers (no reply to mails, bugs reports, features or technical questions )
- bad "relationship"? no call back, no supports, etc...

Maybe it's not your case ( It will be my first time with Messiah), but I hope to see some feedback from users of this forum.

I am sure of one thing: I prefere to work with "smaller" company than big one, because the "small" company can bring more quality to their product and dev team is closer to the customers needs.

I am more in a spirit of colaboration(working together) than "me" and the package "alone".

Thank you for your time. I appreciate.
Hope to read more from you.

I will download the workstation demo. And I will give you a feed back ;)

Wireframes
02-09-2006, 11:39 AM
Waouh

impressive thread here -> thanks Taron !!!

I am very happy to hear some news from Pmg (a good point --> Pmg is not dead...). :bounce:

I hope you will show us some tips about the next version soon (videos or pictures).

Phil

rush123
02-09-2006, 03:56 PM
Thanks for the the update Taron

R

AAAron
02-09-2006, 04:04 PM
Taron your a f***ing teaser now you wonīt be the only one that doesnīt sleep :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

ThomasHelzle
02-10-2006, 01:00 PM
Taron:
If you guys need "torture" to be reminded of the outside world - don't blame it on the messenger... ;)

I will continue to stop by this forum every now and then, looking for AoN:studio related questions (even if only loosely connected) and trying to help there.
But I will not participate in hyping messiah or not telling users about some of the realities...

As far as the thread where all this started (why is it moved without a trace anyway?) is concerned: I still think that a clear "No" (with optional workarounds if available) helps more in real world scenarios than endless defensive discussions about how much someone else thinks that a specific feature is needed or not. That is just a waste of time.

I am NOT a Betatester so I don't know more than any other user.

Finally, I fear I have seen too many such blurbs to be impressed. I would need very pragmatic things to be able to use messiah for my current work: Subdivs with support for Ngons and Edgeweighting, Render Passes and better memory handling for high poly scenes. Being able to write importers would be a plus. The list is much longer but that would be a start.
That isn't in messiah but it is in XSI 5.
Simple as that.

I didn't leave messiah by free will but was forced by works demand.
I actually prefer working in messiah over XSI in some areas like the shadertree.

So in conclusion I continue to hope that all this "redefining what CG is all about" has some real world use too. ;)

...And pmG is as free to keep their users informed and happy on their own as any other software company... Torture is only applied otherwise :p :thumbsup:

Carpe Diem

Taron333
02-10-2006, 11:59 PM
You are not a reminder of the outside world, don't flatter yourself. I've looked at the material thread because it was yet another good point we should follow up on. And so we do!
It's getting taken care of right now. :wip:

A lot of us still know about the times, when a lot fewer things were finished within messiah and when the demand was rightfully higher than our ability to catch up right away. Everytime I think about all the good things you've done, Thomas, and all the idiotic things you've said and are still saying, I'm faced with this amazingly difficult task to comprehend your exact motivation!? Quite obviously it is not about selling your product, judging by your stunningly energetic approach to chase away future messiah artists. A bunch of our existing artists know and appreciate your contributions, as we all know, but I wouldn't be too surprised if a good percentage of them would have not become users, if they read your absurd anti-propaganda before. I'm not asking your for any furher response, really. I'm disappointed in what I hear you say, because I really figured of all the people you should be able to really appreciate the development we're displaying these days.

But ultimatively and fortunately the only thing that really matters to us is that we do the right thing and we do it with just the same pleasure, focus and success. And if amongst the great feedback here a trollish line puts a nasty taste into it, it won't change the great value we draw from great requests and good constructive reminders! :lightbulb

As for the torture aspect, Thomas, I really was kidding, even if the idea sounded appealing to you. :eek:

Taron

Taron333
02-11-2006, 12:00 AM
OH, damn, and about that thread thing, we actually had no part in that. I just want to make this clear, because that would scare the hell out of me, too! :argh:

Taron

Taron333
02-11-2006, 12:21 AM
Ahm...damn, actually again. Because it all seems a little out of context....ah great.

Well, let me regard the good things of your last post again, Thomas....tisk....

Yeah, I've just talked about the N-gon situation, which is a really beasty one, because it goes extraordinarily deep into the code. It's something we are going to take care of, but we've currently put all our focus on the front end and immediate interaction issues. We're overhauling the edit-sphere, addressing awkwardness in some accessability situations, when the edit-sphere is above other vital handles, we are taking care of the editing procedures, including the material handling (replace, copy&past and the old copy is now actually dublicate), we are optimizing the internal handling of everything (haha, sounds rather huge and it actually is, but it's also a perfect help for all sorts of improvements in every area of the program!) and as our own little bonbons we take care of shading improvements and have already taken care of almost "all" of them, actually...which is almost a bummer...I gotta figure out what I want to do next for that section, but I already have a few curious ideas...

Do you remember strangely labeled buttons and other ambiguous places in there? Well, we've been going through them and repaired, relabeled and refunctioned (is that a word?) a few of them already! So anytime anyone finds anything that truely appears funky or doesn't do anything, don't hesitate to mention it! We're looking for them, too!

You know, Thomas, I actually know very much that you mean well. Make it a bit more appreciatable, that's all. You've got a unique humor, I'd like to think. Only very few people can actually realize that. I feel privileged there, really! :hmm:

So, yeah, there are still a bunch of older things open and they are still in the back of our head. Let us progress with the things that are in the works and our list to enrich it sufficiently as well. We're making things in a way that fixe existing and immediate issues as well as add new levels of productivity as well (and fun...just had'a'say it)!

So, well, I guess...thanx for making an effort, actually. I appreciate it.

Taron

tomtm
02-11-2006, 04:49 AM
Hi,

I am very curiouse about the new stuff comming up!

Ï hope there will be something like a FPrime render Preview...
Since this is available in LW, I won't miss it anymore because
it speeds up production dramatically.

With a feature like that, Messiah would be the "realtime application"
in every aspect!

And please, add the mainstream features like "volumetric lights, volumetrics, glow,
lens flare etc......" to be able animate and render most work in messiah!

what about instancing geometry?

Greets Tom

Taron333
02-11-2006, 05:20 AM
Hi,

I am very curiouse about the new stuff comming up!

Ï hope there will be something like a FPrime render Preview...
Since this is available in LW, I won't miss it anymore because
it speeds up production dramatically.

With a feature like that, Messiah would be the "realtime application"
in every aspect!

And please, add the mainstream features like "volumetric lights, volumetrics, glow,
lens flare etc......" to be able animate and render most work in messiah!

what about instancing geometry?

Greets Tom

Hey Tom,

yup, all these things are bouncing around in our heads right now, too. After I have started looking into compositing tools, I've realized that we've got a rather underused image filter section. This section would be predestined for a whole bunch of nice little spoilers from blooming (glow) to lensflares and other neat, useful and completely nonsense fun type of effects...haha! I'm kinda excited to get into there soon, too! :thumbsup:

For the realtime additions we do have a bunch of plans, as I might have mentioned already. And after having dealt with the particles and their shading a few very interesting revelations came to us in terms of instancing, but on both of these topics I want to put a big "We Shall See" in terms of when these things will slide in, but I would actually want to promiss that we'll eventually take care of that, too! With almost everything else I had mentioned earlier it is a lot easier, because we already have all of that running (I think). That's the way I really like it, because you can simply rely on it. But yeah...step by step! :wip:

Taron

SpikeWorx
02-11-2006, 05:50 AM
PmG seems to concentrate on the Render part. Donīt forget the animation features, since itīs still the most used section of Messiah and still my favorite.
Are there any plans:
- docking off the tabs, so that Iīm not forced to switch the main tabs? Going away from the hard coded interface ?
- an easier and more natural way to align the child coordinates without using tons of nulls or align objects
- native weight painting
- dynamic parent in place or 'transform child compensation mode'
- Bone merge funtion. Counterpart to Bone Split option
- native IK chain building . There are some scripts that allow for that functionality, but building a chain while drawing the bones (XSI) wouldnīt hurt ;)
- Support for real 3D Armatures items
- extended armatures function. Access to everything.
- new Armature items: Sliders, numerical inputs etc.
- fixing the strange display behaviour of Armatures items. Example: Zooming in, clicking a button inverts it, but clicking again doesnīt reset it to its former state (only graphically)

Taron333
02-11-2006, 06:37 AM
PmG seems to concentrate on the Render part. Donīt forget the animation features, since itīs still the most used section of Messiah and still my favorite.
Are there any plans:
- docking off the tabs, so that Iīm not forced to switch the main tabs? Going away from the hard coded interface ?
- an easier and more natural way to align the child coordinates without using tons of nulls or align objects
- native weight painting
- dynamic parent in place or 'transform child compensation mode'
- Bone merge funtion. Counterpart to Bone Split option
- native IK chain building . There are some scripts that allow for that functionality, but building a chain while drawing the bones (XSI) wouldnīt hurt ;)
- Support for real 3D Armatures items
- extended armatures function. Access to everything.
- new Armature items: Sliders, numerical inputs etc.
- fixing the strange display behaviour of Armatures items. Example: Zooming in, clicking a button inverts it, but clicking again doesnīt reset it to its former state (only graphically)
Wow, that's a very nice list! It mirrors nearly exactly the kind of things I had listed myself:
bone merge, real 3d armatures, weight painting(so,so), setup alignment methods as well as animated! Yup, sounds all great! I have a few more to top it, too, actually!
Hmmm...ok, it's not forgotten!
I think the worst one is going to be the 3d armature thing, because of a number of reasons, involving a new access to the whole section. This then should also open up the possibilities to what they can access themselves. I think there shouldn't be many restrictions as to what they can address...funny. I think the moment they turn 3d I will most likely make really use of them again...it's been one of the things that kept me a bit more from playing with them.

Anyway, THANX A LOT! Very good stuff! It's all received and received very well! :thumbsup:

Taron

ThomasHelzle
02-11-2006, 10:04 AM
Ah - someone remembers the image filter area! Wow :thumbsup:

Some years ago I thought that this area could easily become the counterpart of Digital Fusion, using basically the current shaderflow:
- One (or multiple) Input-Node(s) where all internally rendered channels are accessible as output connections (Alpha, Depth, UVs, Normals, Shadow(!), Highlight, Specular, Reflection, Transparency, Background, GI, ObjectID, SurfaceID, MaterialID and so on)
- Input-Nodes to import files from disk for pure compositing purposes (including formats like RPF and Layered PSD). This could basically use the current Image Sequence code.

- A library of nodes for compositing and effects, extendable over time. Almost all current texture nodes should work with that system too, depending on what they do.

- One or multiple Output nodes that are either connected to the output panels passes or have all necessary things like image format, path to save to etc. included. Having it connected to the output area would have to allow for creating as many passes as one wants and make them appear on the respective output node (dynamic nodes - something currently unavailable...).

Messiah still has the best nodes I've seen so far. The above would allow to use the potential more fully.


As for me being idiotic: Well, I can live with that. Since I regard Humankind as an early beta, bugs may occur...
Or to cite my favourite author, Douglas Adams: "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

Au revoir

Taron333
02-11-2006, 12:58 PM
Big :thumbsup: !
That one goes for more than just the great revelation that we're a beta at best! :scream:

Yeah, the compositing idea is a well grown one for sure! Secretly we've been tossing around the image sequence management already...tracks and so forth, but I must be drunk to even mention anything like that. However, it's a solid thought to have and it would be one heck of a blast doing comps with the nodes for sure! Particularely after my newest little AfterFX excursion into the world of 2d plugins! Yeah...it'll all go right back into messiah and it'll take great advantage of all the channels, which "HEY" we've got finally also as output buffers! :D
Even more than you've listed I think! And I thought about two different principles on how to deal with coverage (antialiasing solution for use of depth buffers in compositing!). Now that I can easily write AfterFX plugins, we can simply come up with our own principle and I'd have the compositing end under control, which would run under several packages, which all run AfterFX plugins.

BUT, what's far more interesting is, that all the buffers are long available for image filters, I believe...except for the new ones of course, which are just now available...and if not, we'll make'em available. I just need to get into image filters soon. It's quite something! I'm so damn curious. :drool:

Thanx, Thomas, I'm pretty happy to find you like this again! :buttrock:
....hmmm....gotta make a list of friendly profanities I can prepare for emergency situations! :love:

Rock on! As do we...oh...material editing is done! Works beautifully! Replace currently brings up a file requester to load a replacement material, undo works (whereby it's just one step for these actions and sort of toogles undo/redo so to say for now!), copy and paste work fine and dublicate...well...you knew dublicate already (as former "copy" ). :wip:
Next time you guys see Fori, say "thanx"! :)

Alrighty...time to sleep a little...

Taron

ThomasHelzle
02-11-2006, 02:18 PM
If it is needed to be drunk to reveal some parts of the roadmap or share mere ideas and thoughts with the users, I vote for some heavy, continuous intravenous booze supply! :thumbsup:

If it is made clear what is an idea or discussion about possible future things and what is a real feature announcement, not much harm can be done. If someone misunderstands something, it can be explained.
The problem in the past were advertised and sold features that didn't work or exist, or weren't delivered in reasonable time, not some future plans or speculations. Since we all know what I am talking about, I don't reiterate that here in more detail. ;)

I personally found the messiah community one of the most understanding and reasonable tribes I've ever met, so I don't get what that secrecy is all about.
I accept it partly for groundbreaking new inventions (although the publicity and suspense some teasing can create would help more IMO than keeping it all under the hood), but if messiah has compositing included or not doesn't mean anything to the competition. If some buttons look different or some bugs are solved means even less to them.
But it means a lot to actual users.

Referring to the announcement of a public beta regarding Develop (on the pmG homepage September 15, 2005) - that sounds like the way to go for me.
Rhino does it that way: as soon as you buy version 3, you can participate in the beta for version 4. The betas expire after some time, so no old versions hang around too long.

Or have a look at the XSIblog. Developers like Luc-Éric Rousseau from Softimage give insight to the inner workings of the software: http://www.xsi-blog.com/?p=57 or http://www.xsi-blog.com/?p=77 (just two examples from many)
I would never have thought that such deep views into the (sometimes funny) development and inner workings of such a huge software would be possible. I as a user feel very cosy and warm since I understand more and more about how things tick under the surface, I see the humans behind the app and I become more competent and can solve problems better.

Even if the overall development of messiah is slowed down a bit by the time it takes to better inform people, it should be compensated by happier users and a better reception of the software as a whole. Which will help motivation in the end...

Well, in regard to information and openness, pmG has even become worse over the years IMO. Without some "Taronish-booze-outbreaks", nobody would learn anything for months...

Sayonara

crossbones
02-11-2006, 08:13 PM
TARON!
Its so awesome to see you really interacting with the users!! I only have a few things on my dandy list that i would like to see in messiah since using it wonderfully in production. I post things here so they are written down and PMG can refer to them if ever wanted to.

1) A bin system similar to what digital fusion has. I you have Digital Fusion 5, they redefined the bin system where artists can share projects and leave notes for each other on the notes or in the scene itself to explain how that scene particularly works.

I envision something similar to a Zscript that might run take control of the program and show the user how certain things in a particular scene work. I.e Ron rigs a character for me or multiple animators. It would be great for him to create something like a Zscript that would show the cursor interacting with all the different controls of the rig.

2) A way for an artist to create a specialized pass. I.e If my character has a gapping cut on his face ozzing with blood and I want to take a pass of it alone (Radioisty, Translucency, Spec, refraction etc). The way we did it on our last project was by writing a script that went through and turned on and off certain materials, but it we couldn't get render layers of exactly everything we wanted.

3) i would love to see you make a tutorial in whatever time you have that would go on the messiah site and show how to make an animated displacement maps for your character Chuck or Anything you've done. This would drive people to looking at PMG as its very difficult to do it in Max, Maya and just about anything else. I've seen some people (not naming names) who claim that its easily done in other software, when what they are really doing is a painful morph target without displacement.

4) I would like to see Messiah create a forum on their website like ZbrushCentral and encourge people to post their work. Zbrush Central has done more for PixolLogic then anyone realizes.

opera
02-11-2006, 10:06 PM
hi,

I will be a new user of messiah soon ;) (thanks Taron). (I hope next week).
I am playing now with the demo.

I am convinced that Messiah is very promising. Yes ! Some tools are missing, some tools are not perfect and the render part need more (a lot, and more... :) ) improvements.
note to Taron: I have done several tests with radiosity and non-organic shape ( I am waiting my package to be able to save scenes and send it to you : to show you what's wrong ...)

I still want to rbuy it because I am looking for the "animation" capcities first, but I keep an eye at the render engine (the render engine can't fit for my professional work now).

What I like in messiah , is the idea "around" the code: I mean the coders are very tricky (they have genious ideas and are users too (not only coders) of their software... (it's not always the case;)...) that's why I am sure it will grow ( maybe slowly) , but with very promising features.

It's not the end of the world (for me of course) to pay 300$ for M:W. I consider the render engine as a bonus ( similar to Zbrush ). For people looking for a "complete" render engine must pass their way : With more code and features, the render engine can be very powerfull ( maybe with particle, Uv, hair support, cloth, instances, etc... ).

I had to choose between Messiah and XSIfound. ... I choosed Messiah (it's a personnal choise) but I can understand that some users are very frustrated ( I feel the same with other packages ;) waiting ..waiting ... and getting nothing ..same bugs, no features ... only appologies ;) ). Then before to choose a package take the time to see what you can do with it, does it fit for your needs, etc... but don't "imagine" what the soft can do , nothing is better than testing.

I was using the demo ( there are things I don't like, some are perfect), but I am ok with that, I will use it "as is". But I am sure that the messiah coders are 200% involved in their product and messiah has a great community (I spend a bit of time to read all (almost) the posts here). Then I am not scared, Messiah can stay in the competition. I just wish that the coders will work faster and hurry up to bring us new tools and features :) Because it's very exciting what you can do with it.


Just my 2cents for all new users... or futur users.

cheers.

I have a lot of feature requests !! be preparded to code ! :) By buying the product, I want to show you my support, because your product is very orginal ! And believe in it

Taron333
02-12-2006, 01:03 AM
The demo doesn't reflect the current status, especially in regards to particles! I'm going to release a few demo clips and scenes very soon...maybe even tonight. It's very powerful stuff, actually. Whether the old demo shows it already or not, it is complete render engine, even while some things are still missing, but they're bascially only missing in order to make it the perfect render engine. It currently is a beautiful kick booty renderer, that truely supports particularely organic objects best, smooth subdivision geometry!
As far as I'm concerned there are only two major points missing and that's hair (which won't be missing for long now) and some more complex support of all types of geometry (n-gons and directable displacement. Currently it's only along normals, which in general is just fine and most desirable, but certain mechanical/rigid type of models would benefit from directed displacement as well as some additional ways of animating them!).
A few baking features will also come in handy, of course, but other than that I've done 3 feature film effects with the render engine already, ranging from photoreal human extensions ("Reeker") to photoreal aliens ("The Hunt") and ...can you believe it... photoreal visual effects of a full CG broken pool light (Oscar nominated, I think, "Syriana"). All of them where technically a flyby and pure fun, especially Reeker and the Aliens.... For the latter one I had to deal with many different tasks from 2d/3d tracking translations over expressions to rendering out layers for masking (my optimization of rotoscoping, actually) and matching and animating the aliens into the real footage, which was really just a joy. I remember the days, when this kind of work was really hard...now it's literally playful. So it's virtually a mistake to assume that messiah's renderer would not suffice for production. It's a brilliant companion. Not to mention that I was able to pull all of these shows off at home on my two machines!
And, no, it's not just "taron"-magic or so....it's really the simplicity and quality you find in messiah's renderer just as much as it is in the animation...well...the animation had a few more years already...but anyway!

My 2 cents! :shrug:

But thanx a lot, I really appreciate it and I'm happy you're looking into it! I'm sure with the new release you'll find a lot more reasons to enjoy even the rendering section, Opera!

Taron

Layer01
02-12-2006, 01:06 AM
Referring to the announcement of a public beta regarding Develop (on the pmG homepage September 15, 2005) - that sounds like the way to go for me.
Rhino does it that way: as soon as you buy version 3, you can participate in the beta for version 4. The betas expire after some time, so no old versions hang around too long.
[...]
Even if the overall development of messiah is slowed down a bit by the time it takes to better inform people, it should be compensated by happier users and a better reception of the software as a whole. Which will help motivation in the end...

Well, in regard to information and openness, pmG has even become worse over the years IMO. Without some "Taronish-booze-outbreaks", nobody would learn anything for months...


This is ABSOLUTLY correct!!
The biggest problem i have with pmG is the lack of info and developer/user participation. moments like this are great but they are rare atm.
when i compare the public relations of pmg to say those of Silo or modo its almost shamefull.
All that would be needed would be a weekly/bi weekly/monthly anouncment on the forums, it doesnt really matter how often as long as it more or less regular. these should if possible include some screenshots and maybe even some vids (closer to the release date)
if its new members you are looking to bring to messiah this IS what you need to do, and i dont mean that Taron has to do it, but someone from pmG has to do this, even if it means setting back production for half a day. the added benefits would FAR outweigh the set back.

by doing this not only would you keep existing users happy, you would get HEAPS of productive feedback and lots of cool ideas, it would be a bit like on the Silo forums, everyone would be a "beta tester" but not acctually have the beta software, instead they would all just be discussing the pro's and con's of the most recently announced feature (you would be surprised at how many changes and improvment have come about this way)
But probably most importantly you would have a happy user base. and when new users come into this forum and see a happy and active community they are MUCH more likely to adopt the software.

and i wouldn't worry about backing your selves into a corner when you announce stuff, just talk about what you are thinking of adding (just explain how likely it is etc), what you have added, dont hype things that are unsure yet..just use common sense and in general just engage in conversation with the users. really...being secretive only hurts yourselves, it has no possible gain. (though i understand for some things it is necessary)

Layer01
02-12-2006, 01:11 AM
I'm going to release a few demo clips and scenes very soon...maybe even tonight. It's very powerful stuff, actually.

lol beat me to it ;)

wow THREE! you should add them to the messiah site at some stage (if possible) it'd be great to see what messiah was used for. (well i know reeker is there but the other two sound cool)

Taron333
02-12-2006, 02:12 AM
Yeah, darned, the others I can't show, yet...policy stuff...it's not so easy to publish motion picture elements, particularely while they are still fresh. I'll have to find out about Syriana, but I think The Hunt might be available sooner for some little blurps.

Yup, really, I apologize for our long periods of silents, but it's simply because we are actually focusing on our work, as there's still stuff that requires enough attention to rather avoid distraction for ourselves. Ahm...I mean, I mean that in the most positive of ways, really! But we usually find two or three major things we'll focus on very hard and then along the way we fix the little things that brush those topics. When something pressing or inspiring pops up in the threads, we gather it as well and see how it squeezes in. But you must imagine, after having a rather shaky past in regards to promisses, we've decided to make sure we've got our act together when it comes to revealing new features! It won't be anymore about wild assumptions about what we feel we can do, but much rather about what we know we have going already! At the very least when it comes to promisses! It's absolutely vital that we can deliver what we announce. Sounds obvious, but man...if I look at about 2 years back... :blush: ... and I wasn't even directly involved back then...hehe (tisk, shame on me, actually!). However, so that's why we're a little shy in discussing things we're not through with, yet.
There are a bunch of more things I could say to that, particularely looking at my style of posts in this thread (dear god).
But more to that later... :D

Taron

ThomasHelzle
02-12-2006, 09:03 AM
I understand that policy from what happened in the past.

But it is not a solution to replace a bad or faulty communication with non at all!!!

pmG started out with making huge promises they couldn't keep. They did it over and over again. Now that has almost come to an end thankfully.
I assume that someone felt the need to keep the suspense alive back then with those announcements. But the problem wasn't speculation or roadmaps but things like the Siggraph 2000 sale where unbelievable massive promises were actually sold.
With that, pmG painted itself into an extremely small corner. No user did that or demanded that.
The smaller outbreaks that came later (autorig etc.) were received as bad as they were since everybody was still hurting from the main original wound.

But all this was useless if it doesn't lead to a mature, clear and grown-up communication but to a panic to say anything at all!

Communication is 75% of the game.

At least.

:bowdown:

Sil3
02-12-2006, 10:04 AM
I second Thomas post.

Although this might sound a bit harsh, but to me itīs the silence from pmg that somehow "kills" Messiah. I mean, i knew people that i personally influenced to get into messiah, they did it, they even talked with the developers several times on IRC (2 years ago +/-).

For some time things seemed pretty smoothed for pmg, developers communicated regularly and even daily, in here, on the mailing list and in IRC. Then all of sudden they dissapeared and for more than 6 months or close to 1 year (cant recall) there where no signs of life from pmg... this is a bit absurd" IMO, it takes away trust from the users, the people that i convinced to try Messiah later on sold it..why? who wants to support a software that has bugs and needs some features but the dev team says:

Itīs on the list.

Then they dissapear for months and months, leaving the users that had high expectations on a software that already rocks, but they cant simply seem to trust the company behind it.

We all (or most of us anyway) know that pmg is a small company...but that is really not an excuse, i mean, i didnīt promissed anything or did i? Pmg promissed and advertised stuff that until today itīs not anywhere to be seen/added and even now itīs still not sure when the next update will be, even though Taron says it will be soon, but come on...when is soon? Tomorrow? Next week? An year from now?

I once got a pm message from one of the pmg guys thanking me for a post i made explaining and promoting Messiah on the Maya forums. I replyed saying that i only said the truth about messiah and it was an amazing tool already (with lots still to improve ), but after that the ball was really on pmg side, we users were doing everything we could to promote a great tool, and some still do, but the majority already quited (sad but true).

Messiah is dam cool and great yes it is, and people take notice into it when Taron shows it off, we see loads of posts on Taron stuff when he promotes Messiah, wich he does all the time by the way ;)...but then...it fades away again and this cycle itīs been the same year after year after year...people get fed up with it. Right now itīs :

Hey look another great work made in Messiah...geee this soft is soo cool...but where are the features they advertise or where are the features i asked 6 years ago? Are they still on the list?

Some of us know that coding is an organic thing, things can change all the time, but come on...deadlines must be meet at some point, and itīs not YEARS after they were announced, few companies have that luxory, Adobe might be one of them because they are leaders, former Alias might also, but pmg is neither one of them and by the looks of it, if this trend still continues one of this days Messiah will be used by Taron and a dozen others only.

I still have my Messiah dongle, i will (probably) never sell it, one of the reasons is to remind me that i will never buy "unfinished" or beta software again, the other itīs because and even though i dont even plug the dongle, i still care for Messiah, i "secretly" still dream on using it again in production someday, because the software is good, a tinny bit outdated in some areas regarding rigging and animation workflow, but itīs speed and elegancy are still breath taking IMO.

Lotīs of Messiah and Modo users wish that the "strategic" partnership announced by Fred sometime ago would involve this two companies...i DO IT too, because we see in it a chance for Messiah really show the world what a great tool it is, wich until now, and sorry for this remark, but pmg completly failed to do so. If it werent for a couple (and not more right now) of users this forum was dead already.

Not all of us have patience or can decide wich software we want to use in our dailly work offices, i tryed several times to get Messiah into a Studio i frequently do animation gigs...Boss doesnt "trust" the company...what else can i do?

Help us help you pmg!!!

Go back to the Dungeon the times u guys want, but PLEASE dont forget that theres a "World" outside also ;), take a break from time to time (weekly/monthly if possible) and spill out some news or vids showing features or dev progress... :wip:

Layer01
02-12-2006, 01:42 PM
Help us help you pmg!!!


couldn't agree more :deal:

I came to this software relativly late, the firts time it cought my eye was when studio came out and it was front page on cgtalk. lots of people were talking about it, i was excited about it but couldn't afford it at the time.
then a little while ago i saw someone selling his copy and bought it. Why is any of this important, well i missed all the famous "promises" of 2000, i came into this software a complete messiah hype virgin :p (so i am not bias toward you in any way ;) )
The first thing that struck me was the lack of cummunity, or the lack of an organised and active community. This has gotten better with the resurection of the IRC channel and some heavy posting in the forum, now i'm not trying to take the claim of saving the comunity here, i'm just saying i've done a fair bit to try and "pep" things up in here since my arival, but i've seen many others do the same too. what i'm saying is that there are a lot of users out there talking messiah up and keeping this community alive.
All that is needed now is for pmG to meet us at the half way mark, PLEASE involve us, talk to us, be an active participant in the forums (reading them is not good enough, you have to post, other wise how are we to know if you've read it or not!?)

even if you are getting sucked into your coding you NEED to come in here, like we've said even if it slows you down the benifits will far outweight the negatives.
A regular update would be a great place to start, it may sound corny but i think it would give users hope that messiah isn't a lost cause.
by dissapearing for months on end you are only shooting yourselves in the foot, you are loosing potential customers and you are loosing your established ones. now i hate to sound grimm but your situation is NOT good. from what i've heard about these "ugly" days of promises thrown left right and center, you need to work TWICE as hard to rebuild your image, dissapearing from the scene for long periods at a time is NOT how to do this, you will only suffer a slow death by doing so. You need to regain users confidence, you need to show users (new and old) that you have changed and learn't from your mistakes.
People need to be reasured that you are a company that is in it for the long run, that you are serious about your product and that you care about your userbase.
Because no matter how much you feel or know that you are/do it doesn't matter unless the public can see it.

if you do this (properly and not only for a few months) you will find that you will get more newcomers and less people are leaving, more people in the industry using messiah will mean it will start having more chances of seaping into more FX houses and everyone wins, the users get their product and community and the devs get their users and community :beer:



but please, you must do something sooner rather than later. the longer you leave it the harder it will be to make a comeback, and i have no desire to see you fade away.

sorry to sound so grimm but i really wish to see positive change, and i think there is no point in ignoring the hard issues. deal with the root of the problem and everything else connected to it will sort itself out.

DMack
02-12-2006, 02:04 PM
Regards regular communication - I have noticed a direct correlation on the Luxology website - The more that Lux demo the upcoming 201 and show little videos (EVERY friday until launch) ther more the forum buzzes (14,000 views for some of the Friday update threads!!) - it's got to be good for business. I have at times been left with the feeling that messiah is dying SIMPLY because of a lack of communication - The sw is really realy good and I sing its praises on this and other forums...BUT commuincation is the key to peoples belief that a programme is being actively developed - and that is key to people choosing to integrate it into their pipeline.

Keep in touch with the user base and it will pay dividends.

I notice that all the talk at the moment, other than something on the edit sphere is render related - I'd really like to hear something on the animation front! - I'm beginning to wonder if its being ignored - help!

ThomasHelzle
02-12-2006, 02:33 PM
Wow, that is some fantastic feedback. I concur with all of those well stated points and have had the same experience with users I know or to which I recommended messiah.
Heck, even the single european messiah-dealer (3Dpowerstore.de) who was extremely motivated at first, gave up lately.

Nobody is making this up.

The day pmG finally understands those points and acts accordingly, I am willing to continue development of TLHPro (almost done anyway) as well as AoN:Animate (realtime displacement deformers in the viewport based on the AoN:Studio procedurals (half finished)).

Until then, my dongle will continue to catch dust as it does for almost a year now...

And since the topic of my AoN-sales came up earlier:
I want satisfied customers more than money.
I have no interest in someone buying messiah and my shaders just to become frustrated later. I even thought about stopping to sell AoN completely, but found that an even worse thing for the existing community, so I will keep them available, even though I can't promise when and if an update will come. The shaders work flawless so far anyway.

The ball is in pmGs square and is there for almost 6 years.

Time to play.

Regards,

opera
02-12-2006, 04:00 PM
wow for me too ! ....
I am impressed by this feedback. I feel lost now ... I was going to register but after reading your posts, the first thing coming to my mind is "wait and see ...."

I felt the same with Lightwave ( Luxology transition until now). Very disapointed for the same reasons you have been with Messiah.

hummmm..... yes I get interested by Messiah only since few days ( I never had to do complex animations before... but I have to find an "answer" to my new projects for character animation). As you said I was impressed from the work of users ( marek,taron,and co ... that make me look to messiah.

I was thinking that everything was shiny in the Messiah world...

I appreciate the feed back from experienced users, (since I am a newbie in animation).

Thanks.

GCL
02-12-2006, 04:21 PM
My concern as well on all that's been said here. In the retail environment when a business starts delaying product release, promises made and broken (not realized) (Autorig version 1 or 2 as one feature looking forward too), lack of feedback and an open communication line, that's the red flag of a pending closure of the business (bankruptcy). Or that it's a don't really care attitude and we do whatever we desire to do.

Additionally, I noticed as well features that SHOULD have been included / promised in the software when finally RELEASED as an upgrade, we have to pay for it again.
Example: confusion on the Studio Workstation release versus the M:A 5 pricing...

Paula has been most helpful at pmG. But I feel pmG isolates itself from any pressure and as a result leaving us out. But allowing the user to "wish" for better times.
I'm keeping an eye on these discussions and what pmG may do to rectify the user gap.
Oh well....

Sil3
02-12-2006, 04:46 PM
wow for me too ! ....
I am impressed by this feedback. I feel lost now ... I was going to register but after reading your posts, the first thing coming to my mind is "wait and see ...."

I felt the same with Lightwave ( Luxology transition until now). Very disapointed for the same reasons you have been with Messiah.

hummmm..... yes I get interested by Messiah only since few days ( I never had to do complex animations before... but I have to find an "answer" to my new projects for character animation). As you said I was impressed from the work of users ( marek,taron,and co ... that make me look to messiah.

I was thinking that everything was shiny in the Messiah world...

I appreciate the feed back from experienced users, (since I am a newbie in animation).

Thanks.

Let me clarify a couple of things before im getting acused of driving people away from Messiah...

- Messiah is a TOP NOTCH Character Animation tool!!! I wouldnīt mind animating on it for a living at all.

- We cant compared LW and Messiah the same way you are comparing, they have totaly diferent scenarios... LW started sinking some years ago (and still is IMO) while Messiah never got to where it SHOULD HAD been all along since it first appeared in 99, but always rising in features and ease of use.

If u need a Character Animation tool that is easy to use and fast fast fast, so fast that u can simply adjust keyframes while the animation is still playing in REALTIME!!! Then messiah is a perfect and wise choice...if only XSI had at least half of this speed... but this is another subject :)

I wont coment on the render because besides a few F9īs several versions ago (2-3 years or so), i never did anything more on it, im not a render guy, in fact i kinda try to avoid it hehehe, it simply dont atract me to make tests on my free time. So the render doesnt really appeal to me as the rigging and animation tools do.

Layer01
02-12-2006, 10:16 PM
Let me clarify a couple of things before im getting acused of driving people away from Messiah...


hehehe yeah, i feel i should point out to that i am not trying to "bad mouth" messiah, just that i feel that certain key things in the way the company is running PR are wrong.

i'll add that i to have XSI, and messiah (i find) much more intuitive and free to animate in, a lot of this is no doubt due to my lack of experiance in XSI but at the time i had no time to get to grips with its learning curve (that will come later).
if you are a "newbie aimator" i think you'll be pleasantly surprised by Messiah, it does animation..and it does it very well.
the renderer is good too (only suffering from extremely poor docs atm unless there are some that i dont know of) and is looking to get even better in this next release.
For messiah workstation the $299 price tag is a GREAT deal and i urge you to give it a "real" go. it took me a little while to get my head around messiah's quirks but come join us on IRC and ask questions in there, you'll find we have a nice little community in there :)

so i still continue to recommend Messiah. but i also still think pmG need to act soon, or they will be stuck in a limbo with a great app but no one to use it.

just as another example, i can think of at least 3 features i have requested/mentioned in the silo forums that have been added to the app, nevercenter now have my support for life as it is, and i swear by silo now because i know if there is something in there i feel should be changed or added and i say something i KNOW they will be listening and i will see a result within my liftime.

opera
02-13-2006, 02:00 AM
Thanks don't worry guys... I don't run away. I still need a tool to animate.

With my experince I can see "a good product", Messiah is a good product !

The render engine with more features (sorry again Taron :) -yes the render engine rocks, but ... layers, photon baking, etc...etc.. I have done a simple test with a box and a hole humm (there are something to fix with flipped polygons, shadows and boucing lights ... ) I did render an organic shape , it works very well. That's why I am not surprised that you rendered characters for films... . ) well I have many things to say about missing parameters. BUT with more developpements it can be used for different kind of projects ( not only character oriented ;) ... ).

I think it will be more "serious" for me to wait the new release with a listed features. There is no official date for the update, it could me in 1 month .. it could be in 6 months .. or more ??..

I will wait and see how PMG will answer to your posts ( about communication, feedback, upgrade, tutorial, doc,share infos, etc... ).

SOme people sold their packages, some don't use it anymore... it's not good for marketing, new user like me can say .." whoaw ? what's going on here ? Is it a dying tool ?".

For the few I have understand PMG team need to make more effort about communication and more frequent update?

cheers!

Parsec3d
02-13-2006, 05:24 AM
A dead tool does not find second hand buyers. we have seen how many users selling in the last 4 months ,, 3? well they come here coz they know here they will get some one to buy it, so, that is far from sounding like a dead, or dying tool, it is alive kicking and being improved as we speak, not much comunication, well they have to find a way to post frequent news (maybe a blog or something that gets updated every two weekends).

Messiah is As it is one of the best Character Animation tools with a superb rederer as a plus, and if only half of what Taron have talked about is shown in the next weeks, well things will only get better in the coming months, and I am sure of that.

Antonio

Labuzz
02-13-2006, 08:28 AM
Hey PMG give me this features and I will be able to use messiah at work ( 3d real time ) and do some plugs again.

* weight maps. the most important one for real time!

* opengl transparency (for billboards and FX-> car lights for example)
* backing solution. (obvious)

a few personal :
* Pose space deformation.
* Smooth interpolated UVs on subdiv.
* Ngons, edge weight.
* separate bump and displace.
* map gradient keys.(u&v gradient).

Adam-Han
02-13-2006, 02:19 PM
I second the interpolated subdiv uv's and seperate bump/displace :)

Nichod
02-13-2006, 03:50 PM
I've been an interested buyer for quite some time. But have been holding off for a few reasons. Little quirks in the program (having to scale each object to adjust to Messiah's scale, why can't this be automated somehow?) and the lack of a strong community presence (and I don't mean users, but company). Another 3D company that I have close ties with has attempted to contact pmG on numerous occasions. And I've emailed them at least 3+ times. And no response has been received. Its things like that, that turn me off to buying Messiah.

Really WEGG is the one person who has kept me interested in Messiah and hoping for some changes. For now I continue to be a bystander and keeping an eye on Messiah and its continued development. I've been very interested in DEVELOP, with my experience in programming I'd love to get my hands on it, but that seems to be taking forever to surface.

Anyway. Thanks a lot for the news, its great stuff and sounds like some exciting fixes, changes and new enhancements.

Wegg
02-13-2006, 04:55 PM
Wow. What a thread. I have to admit I'm a Messiah zealot and every time Taron put his fingers on a keyboard to reply to anything. . . Its a wild ride. Lets just re-cap some of the crazy crap.

I'm again very sorry for stripping Taron's post out of his conversation with Thomas on the material thread. It was just . . . so juicy . . . I had to spotlight it.

Fur. . .

Ahh. . . . fur. . . .

But then the ability to change the direction of a displacement!?! Holly crap! That right there changes everything! Man thats going to rule.

Post effect filters with a Fusion like shader flow!?! DAMN Thomas! Wouldn't that kick ass!?! I have seen and played with an early version Taron's AE plugin and if this is what he is hinting at. . . . this changes everything. . . You should see how fast that thing renders!

wow.

Layer01: you and I have talked about your concerns on IRC a few times and I think Taron re-stated what I told you in there. They are gun shy. They over-sold their product years ago and they are not looking repeat that mistake. But as you can see I don't think this "complete silence" is a trend that will continue. I think they will find their balance.

Nichod: The scale issue your fighting is something I faced years ago when I transitioned to Lightwave. The Lightwave/Messiah world space is so insainly small compared to the package I was using. But as I dug deeper I found multiple solutions to the problem. Multipliers of .1 and even .01 on export did the trick. I managed to get your tea post into Messiah through Wings. You shouldn't HAVE to do that. . . But you would be faced with the same issue in Lightwave. . . and it's install base is MASSIVE. Seems odd that the modeler your using hasn't seen that and come up with a solution. . . And the other company you mentioned that tried to contact pmG. . . I tried to help out with that but they never returned MY e-mails! :argh: The irony. . .

As far as the rest of you. . . I don't know you. You don't come visit us in IRC. <HINT!>

Parsec3d
02-13-2006, 06:30 PM
As far as the rest of you. . . I don't know you. You don't come visit us in IRC. <HINT!>



:P :D ;) ... Man could you ask Taron his aut to post images or clips of the beta stuff
so he does not have to use his time to do that? only the particles stuff he was ready to post ...
if possible ,, that would rock :)

thanks

Wegg
02-13-2006, 06:43 PM
Well I have seen the particle tests. Everyone on the beta team has them and a few are messing around with how it all works but its not really my place to go showing you guys. That would kind of break my trust with them. (Plus the fact that I'm pretty busy with my own projects and don't really have as much time as I'd like to play with all the new toys.)

Parsec3d
02-13-2006, 07:34 PM
,, sure no prob ,, not asking you to post anything just maybe a "this thing you can post" from Taron, or something like that for future stuff, well hoping him to have the time to post something of the current stuff...

gsuttor
02-13-2006, 07:46 PM
I've been with this software since it was released by SXS and I see it again and again before a major release... people start getting all head up and concerned about the demise of the software, then the release comes out and everyone that complained picks up their jaw of the floor. (or finds something else to complain about)



The biggest laugh I got was when XSI had it's massive reduction in price, everyone thought it was the end of the world for other software..... meh, all it meant was you could buy XSI as well, if you could be arsed learning another piece of software.

I only use messiah for my personal joy, no commercial stuff and I love this ride. :bounce:

nvvm
02-13-2006, 09:00 PM
I have to admit that communication is what's kept me from buying messiah. You just feel it's dead or going to go away soon, and it tears you up inside because you search and search for developer feedback or updates and nothing changes nothing is different. All the while feeling you've found the perfect tool for animation, I love the fact you can just us bones to animate(and not need weight maps). I would without a doubt make a purchase if I seen more feedback direcly from PMG on what it's doing. I wouldnt think twice about it, as a matter of fact I've been trying to pick up a copy from users selling it cheap as I had no idea where things are headed. And I'm nervous about making a purchase in all honesty. Communication from PMG would change that as messiah is a great product.

Wegg
02-13-2006, 09:27 PM
What more do you need to know beyond what Taron has mentioned in this thread?

nvvm
02-13-2006, 10:24 PM
Well for one that it be on the front page of PMG's website, more details on th new features. Not your SCI top secret stuff that competitors could steal and implement but for example hair and particle solutions were mentioned. So screenshots and video's to show progress so I can understand how PMG's implementation of it works, how strong(flexible) is it ? Will the particles also include voxel(volumetric) like functionality ? Will the the particle effects be flexible enough for water simulation ? Questions like that the same could be said for the hair implementation, again I completely understand withholding info on features that would be a 1st for the market, or a genuis implementation of things. They could start with showing basic functionality(what would be considered industry standard) and move on into advaced functionality. Constant updates of progress of features being added would be good leading up to siggraph where they could have a even bigger showing of what's to come. Also do you plan on doing anything for crowd simulations, cloth, true skin and muscle systems ? What's the goal with messiah what gap is aimed at being filled with it, and where is it going ?

edit: And aslo a feedback forum

Wegg
02-13-2006, 11:48 PM
Well for one that it be on the front page of PMG's website, more details on th new features. Not your SCI top secret stuff that competitors could steal and implement but for example hair and particle solutions were mentioned.

That I don't know. pmG's website isn't exaclty the sexiest thing. . . so I tend to agree.

So screenshots and video's to show progress so I can understand how PMG's implementation of it works, how strong(flexible) is it ?

I know that is being worked on.

Will the particles also include voxel(volumetric) like functionality ?

Yes. That and more.

Will the the particle effects be flexible enough for water simulation ?

As it is right now in the beta. No. There is a "blob" effect where the particles can glob together. . . It is about as advanced as Lightwave's Hypervoxels in that reguard. So whatever you can do with that. . . you can do with Messiah. It is no realflow replacement.

Questions like that the same could be said for the hair implementation, again I completely understand withholding info on features that would be a 1st for the market, or a genuis implementation of things. They could start with showing basic functionality(what would be considered industry standard) and move on into advaced functionality.

I don't know at all whats going on here beyond what Taron has hinted at.

Constant updates of progress of features being added would be good leading up to siggraph where they could have a even bigger showing of what's to come.

<shrug> We can hope. I can tell Taron is all fired up to show us some great stuff but "constant updates of progress" only takes time away from them MAKING that progress. . . so I think we just have to suck in what has been said and leave them alone as much as possible.

Also do you plan on doing anything for crowd simulations,

That has not been mentioned but I think if you read between the lines in with instancing. . . there could be some creative solutions made.


cloth,

I just did a very in-depth instructional video on how to create cloth in Messiah. <link> (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=312331)

true skin and muscle systems ?

I would pit Messiah's muscle implementation as it is now against any other package on the market. Especially when you consider how amazingly simple it is to tie in displacement maps mapped to bones. (Think skin sliding over ribs or muscles). Adding a little bloat into the formula would nail it.

What's the goal with messiah what gap is aimed at being filled with it, and where is it going ?

When you buy Messiah. . . and post good work. . . people from pmG ususally contanct you and thank you for using their product and ask you where you want them to take it. So thats a question you should probably ask yourself. :thumbsup: I for one have been pushing for fur, render layers and Darktree support. I know that all of my wishes have been granted. Yay!

edit: And aslo a feedback forum

How would your idea of a feedback forum work any differently to this area of CGTalk?

Layer01
02-13-2006, 11:50 PM
Layer01: you and I have talked about your concerns on IRC a few times and I think Taron re-stated what I told you in there. They are gun shy. They over-sold their product years ago and they are not looking repeat that mistake. But as you can see I don't think this "complete silence" is a trend that will continue. I think they will find their balance.



heheheh yeah i know...but you have to understand that any ranting i have is simply due to my love of this app and my frustration (at times) at how its not "up there with the big boys"
I just want to see it do well not only for myself but also for pmG's sake and i think that long silent gaps are not the solution to this, wether intentional or not.
but i hope you're right.

I've been with this software since it was released by SXS and I see it again and again before a major release... people start getting all head up and concerned about the demise of the software, then the release comes out and everyone that complained picks up their jaw of the floor. (or finds something else to complain about)

i agree that every release seems to be packed with amazing goodies making it, as you say "jaw dropping". but the very fact that you notice that there is a common occurance of users getting concerned at some stage or annother of the dev cycle is proof in itself that something is wrong with the way pmG are handeling things atm. if i were pmG i wouldn't want my existing users to start getting all worried and upset about the state of the program's development at regular intervals, its just common sense.

sure the app is wonderful, what the guys are doing (what we dont see) is amazing, i know they work thier asses off, but all that is worthless if poeple can never feel secure when using the app. because the "ooh's" and "ahh's" at launch eventually fade and whats left after that? cold silence, and a bunch of users wondering what happened. and if they get fed up and leave (or stop using the app)..well thats annother round of potential users gone, and like it or not people talk, and if they leave feeling dissatisfied then they will tell others so and none of this is good for messiah or its users.

i just want to also make it clear that i love using messiah, i just wish to point out what i think is a serious problem, i could be wrong, just dont shoot the messenger :D

opera
02-14-2006, 12:20 AM
hi Weeg,

I was going to register .. (I contacted Paula)..but ....

I sure you can understand that you are a beta tester (you have access to all the news good features and bug fixes).
I am beta tester too of an other package and honestly there is a difference with a "simple" customer. Even it's a beta version, you see the progress made, you can interact to adjust features,etc..

"We" (me or futur users) only see an "old" version avaible. We can't buy a product only with "teasing sentence" of a futur version.

Anyway , PMG had a bad communication... but I am sure with front page, with a feature list and a release date.
ie:
- this version have ......
- it will be done and READY to send the xx/xx/06 ( "ready to send" is very important;))

but please nothing aka Luxo or Newtk (pre-order, it wil be "available soon" ... 8 months after you got nothing and you don't know when you will get it)

As a beta tester you see the progress, I imagine people who bought the Messiah version (2.2) (I don't the release date) but had "minor" updates during a long period could be a "bit nervous" about the next release.

Personnaly, I am waiting for an official release date.

if the marketing can contact me (in private;)) to give me a date (I will be pleased to register). of course if it still in beta and devlpt, I will wait .. the Siggraph could be a good marketing date... then if it's the case, few months (6) to wait again.

Parsec3d
02-14-2006, 01:06 AM
Opera

- 2.2 is not 8 months old
- Last addition to all users was January 6, 2006(the improved, Edit Sphere)
- You can't have a release date with software , that is totally unreal, zbrush is delayed silo is delayed modo is delayed LW is delayed, and you cad add to that list a lot more, As far as I have seen in the past once they drop a few hints something is about to come but you can never know also Taron said before 2008,2007, or maybe closer for all he states and I am ok with that. coz he also talks about segments working and that can only be good but finishing details always seem to take more that huge developing blocks... so if you want to wait it is ok, if you really think you can't do a thing without the things to come then wait, but if you think what is there is what you need to start and the coming features(not fixes) suit you then... I see no reason to wait. again as silent as the developers might seem this soft is alive, this forum is alive and developing has not been stoped and it is not going to stop.

fwtep
02-14-2006, 01:19 AM
" Ordinary people built the ark, specialists built the titanic"

Yeah, but the titanic sank.... so much for specialist

Sorry to be off topic, but:

1) The ark was built to God's specs. Is it surprising that it would be pretty good?

2) The ark was built buy someone hand-picked by God. I don't know if I'd call Noah "ordinary."

3) In order to float the ark, all other human, animal and plant life had to die. Titanic just rolled down the gantry.

4) The Titanic sinking was an act of God. That's not playing fair. He was jealous of the success of the specialists.

5) Sure, the Titainc sank, but the ark ran aground.

6) Only about 1500 people died on Titanic, but when the ark ran aground millions of dinosaurs died.

Fred

Parsec3d
02-14-2006, 01:32 AM
Lol :D great one!..

nvvm
02-14-2006, 02:07 AM
Sorry to be off topic, but:

1) The ark was built to God's specs. Is it surprising that it would be pretty good?

2) The ark was built buy someone hand-picked by God. I don't know if I'd call Noah "ordinary."

3) In order to float the ark, all other human, animal and plant life had to die. Titanic just rolled down the gantry.

4) The Titanic sinking was an act of God. That's not playing fair. He was jealous of the success of the specialists.

5) Sure, the Titainc sank, but the ark ran aground.

6) Only about 1500 people died on Titanic, but when the ark ran aground millions of dinosaurs died.

FredIt would of been better to send me this in a PM, talks like this no matter how fun to me or you tend to blow up in forums :)

fwtep
02-14-2006, 02:48 AM
It would of been better to send me this in a PM, talks like this no matter how fun to me or you tend to blow up in forums :)No need to worry; this forum is different than the other forums. Heck, with a software package called "messiah" you have to be tolerant to be here. :)

We don't even have Mac vs. PC arguments here, and that's a religious argument that gets people's emotions up more than any other.

Fred

Parsec3d
02-14-2006, 02:52 AM
MACs?? what are those? ;) ,, ( hehe ...sorry )

Wegg
02-14-2006, 02:55 AM
Those things with Intel chips inside them.

nvvm
02-14-2006, 03:32 AM
<shrug> We can hope. I can tell Taron is all fired up to show us some great stuff but "constant updates of progress" only takes time away from them MAKING that progress. . . so I think we just have to suck in what has been said and leave them alone as much as possible.Well I tend to think the pro's out weigth the con's in that respect, I don't think it would take away any meaningful time from development.


That has not been mentioned but I think if you read between the lines in with instancing. . . there could be some creative solutions made. :thumbsup:, will wait and see what they cook up :)




I just did a very in-depth instructional video on how to create cloth in Messiah. <link> (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=312331) Not really what I meant but nice to know



I would pit Messiah's muscle implementation as it is now against any other package on the market. Especially when you consider how amazingly simple it is to tie in displacement maps mapped to bones. (Think skin sliding over ribs or muscles). Adding a little bloat into the formula would nail it.Well I'd have to take your word on that I just figured more specialized tools to get the job done wouldnt hurt. Like this plugin http://www.cometdigital.com/cMuscleSystem.php



When you buy Messiah. . . That's what the whole discussion is about, what's keeping me from buying. But every developer has a specific purpose they develop their software to fill. I'm simply asking what that is. Is messiah working to become a full app or a specialized animation solution ?

and post good work. . . people from pmG ususally contanct you and thank you for using their product and ask you where you want them to take it. So thats a question you should probably ask yourself. :thumbsup: I for one have been pushing for fur, render layers and Darktree support. I know that all of my wishes have been granted. Yay! I havent any doubt I'd create good work, but that seems a little wrong shouldnt the entire userbase have input in these matters ? At anyrate congrats.




How would your idea of a feedback forum work any differently to this area of CGTalk? For obvious reasons, it's not like news wouldnt filter back here as well.

Wegg
02-14-2006, 03:51 AM
Well I'd have to take your word on that I just figured more specialized tools to get the job done wouldnt hurt. Like this plugin http://www.cometdigital.com/cMuscleSystem.php
Take my word for it. Messiah is fully capable of re-producing everything that plugin can do and more.
That's what the whole discussion is about, what's keeping me from buying. But every developer has a specific purpose they develop their software to fill. I'm simply asking what that is. Is messiah working to become a full app or a specialized animation solution ?
It is working towards becoming a full production app. Which. . . BTW. . . it is already. Its all I use now. Its all Taron uses. Its all a lot of people use. <shrug> Sure there are things that are missing but thats what makes it so amazing! What is missing. . . can be augmented by the many plugin developers out there. Companies like Alias and Newtek make amazing plugins for Messiah. You may have heard of them. Maya, Lightwave etc. :twisted:
I havent any doubt I'd create good work, but that seems a little wrong shouldnt the entire userbase have input in these matters ? At anyrate congrats.
Everything anyone says in this forum is watched. I literally see Fred's name down on the list of people reading threads almost every day. Everyone gets there say. But sometimes. . . things like "Make it work like Maya" from someone who hasn't even purchased it. . . are understandebly filtered out. I'm ok with that. . .

ThomasHelzle
02-14-2006, 07:30 AM
...leave them alone as much as possible.
Well, that may be the best advice anyway and I will fall back onto it once more.
Discussions like these have come up so often I can't count them.
It has never changed anything.

I personally don't believe in the fairy tale about "after each release people were happy". I wasn't the least impressed by the last one and I can't see myself getting too excited by the next one from what I have read here. Finally usable Particles are fine and Develop looks nice from the images too, and some years ago I might have given an arm for those. Heck, I bought the messiah:studio update from the plugin because of Develop.

I don't think I will live long enough to see messiah become the tool I once dreamt of. So I better stick with the reality.

Have a nice kingdom come, guys ;)

Best Regards,

DMack
02-14-2006, 11:49 AM
Hey Fred, Lyle.....Have you noticed how much the forum is now buzzing since Taron popped some info up......That has just got to be good for business!

Wegg - "Those things with Intel chips inside them" - Thanks - You made me laugh out loud!

You know.....maybe it's best that messiah isn't available on the Mac....it does eliminate all the mac vs pc or should I say intel vs intel debates!

Edit: Is the webste down for other people? I can't get to it?

PaulNewman
02-14-2006, 12:26 PM
Nice thread here! Peaceful. The ark is all loaded: pragmatists, ideallists, avid users and procrastinators. Once these turbulent waters subside and the ark settles gently (no running aground) and we are all let out into the new world, we should find it good that those dinosaurs are dead. New possibilities will shine on us like the pleasant sun after a storm, the rainbow of floating point colours (HDRI also supported) remind us that the past trauma will not happen again and we can look forward with joy to the coming messiah. Then our hopes and dreams will finally be fulfilled, even though the wait was testing and for some a trial. Then those who did not believe will be known by the gnashing of teeth while the believers enjoy paradise in all its subdivision detail, nuances of radiosity and buzz of finely animated activity.

A big difference will be that for pmG's messiah software, salvation can be bought.

Nichod
02-14-2006, 04:06 PM
Nichod: The scale issue your fighting is something I faced years ago when I transitioned to Lightwave. The Lightwave/Messiah world space is so insainly small compared to the package I was using. But as I dug deeper I found multiple solutions to the problem. Multipliers of .1 and even .01 on export did the trick. I managed to get your tea post into Messiah through Wings. You shouldn't HAVE to do that. . . But you would be faced with the same issue in Lightwave. . . and it's install base is MASSIVE. Seems odd that the modeler your using hasn't seen that and come up with a solution. . .

I know. But in programs with scale issues, generally you can scale it down in program and all will be fine. I would think that I could simply type in a number and scale it down to the necessary size in Messiah. Can this not be done? It seemed like it didn't work when I tried.


And the other company you mentioned that tried to contact pmG. . . I tried to help out with that but they never returned MY e-mails! :argh: The irony. . .


Yeah. Not sure what is going on there. I think I have a feeling though....I did/do appreciate the effort.

The Solution

I think that there is a very simple solution to the communication problem. It goes in two parts.

1. Start up a simple forum alongside the pMg website. Have an announcement section in the forum and have monthly announcements and sneakpeeks. The 30 minutes or so to have these announcements would be worth it, as we can tell by the responses in this thread. Also, include various other sections according to what is desired (shader, render, animation) to help create a community site.

2. Change how purchasing Messiah works. Have the current price and then a subscription based system. A $99 a year fee sounds reasonable. (payable yearly or at any time) And members with this fee would have access to the beta versions as they are released.

Doing this would give pMg a steady flow of income and would give further communication to the user community. It would also provide pMg with a larger amount of testers to help fix the problems that could be missed by the core group of alpha testers.

Further discussion

I'm not sure what partnerships or deals exist with Messiah and other companies, but a big amount of marketing needs to be done to bring Messiah to its true place (that it deserves) in the CG community. And one thing that would help is bundles with other software. Lightwave for instance. Or Softimage. (etc. etc.) Especially bundles with Silo, Hexagon, Modo...dedicated modeling applications should be considered. I would think this is as simple as contacting the company and forming up a contract to offer bundles and deals.

I think what pMg is missing is a marketing person to handle issues like this, like providing updates on what is going on and pushing for distribution.

Feature wish

I know what Wegg said about the scaling issue, but it would be nice if there was a solution that existed. Perhaps it does. If anyone knows of a way of doing it (in Messiah and preferably quickly on a collection of objects).

PaulNewman
02-14-2006, 04:26 PM
I'm not sure what partnerships or deals exist with Messiah and other companies, but a big amount of marketing needs to be done to bring Messiah to its true place (that it deserves) in the CG community. And one thing that would help is bundles with other software. Lightwave for instance. Or Softimage. (etc. etc.) Especially bundles with Silo, Hexagon, Modo...dedicated modeling applications should be considered.
Perhaps they are negotiating / thinking of deals like this. If I was pmG, I would not rush into partnerships and heavy marketing until the appropriate time. This could translate into biting off more than you can chew on the one side and risking taking a partially complete product into the mainstream and all the criticism and fallout they could face from that. No matter how testing it is, patience from all involved will result in a feature rich and mature product. No good seeing the horse collapse out of the gate. We want to see a long distance runner, a winner. And that takes preparation, wisdom and good timing.

catizone
02-14-2006, 04:43 PM
Definitely looks like exciting things on the horizon. Hopefully Fred and the guys will be able to release some interim updates with some of the new stuff, and then just update those with the other features, or even better implementation...not that we don't get great implementation to start with).

Of course, I am just getting back to messiah after about 2 years, and its amazing how much I have forgotten. SO I have plenty to keep busy with...but can't wait for new features.

Best,

Rick

pichoo
02-14-2006, 05:01 PM
One more thing that haven't been mention is having a WIKI :)

Sil3
02-14-2006, 05:18 PM
It seems this thread and all itīs "whining" got old users interested again ;)

DMack
02-14-2006, 05:37 PM
Yep - and that's an opportunity...............


Has anything been said about Animate? I wonder if that little yellow marker will....nah....

Parsec3d
02-14-2006, 07:17 PM
Server Down! .. dum de dum ....

catizone
02-14-2006, 07:46 PM
Hmmmmmm....

All this chatter about new things and then the site is unavailable. This couldn't mean that we may be getting an immediate update here could it???

Now that I think about it, Fred was commenting on the Ark. Let's see, the Ark saved the faithful from the drowning world. Like messiah saves us from the drowning world of other cg app complexity.

Now I'm really getting anxious!

Best,
Rick

Parsec3d
02-14-2006, 08:04 PM
nope he was commenting about GoD not asking humans
to manufacture his ships ever again..

kurv
02-14-2006, 08:59 PM
Server Down! .. dum de dum ....

Thought it was just me... :(

Julez4001
02-15-2006, 04:21 AM
Popping my head in here so i can get subscribe to the "going-ons"!

I didn't miss anything .. some videos perhaps!

PaulNewman
02-15-2006, 05:53 AM
That I don't know. pmG's website isn't exaclty the sexiest thing. . .
Perhaps pmG, famed for listening to their users, saw this comment and took their site down for a revamp!?

DMack
02-15-2006, 08:04 AM
And in true style, famed for their complete lack of communication....thought... hey, rather than tell people we're changing the website, we'll just remove it and then go quiet! LOL :D

Edit: I don't get it, the website - it's still down....why not make the changes offline and do a quick swap out....unless it's something bigger.....better......should I be excited?

catizone
02-15-2006, 12:59 PM
I get the first page now. Hope all this means that new things are about to break, and they've been updating all the info as fast as their little fingers can fly.

Keeping fingers crossed....

Rick

Hoogle
02-15-2006, 03:10 PM
Hmmmmmm....

All this chatter about new things and then the site is unavailable. This couldn't mean that we may be getting an immediate update here could it???

Now that I think about it, Fred was commenting on the Ark. Let's see, the Ark saved the faithful from the drowning world. Like messiah saves us from the drowning world of other cg app complexity.

Now I'm really getting anxious!

Best,
Rick

I've heard from a VERY unreliable source that the site will be down until Easter. Now where is this Judas guy !! :D

stooch
02-15-2006, 04:25 PM
No need to worry; this forum is different than the other forums. Heck, with a software package called "messiah" you have to be tolerant to be here. :)

We don't even have Mac vs. PC arguments here, and that's a religious argument that gets people's emotions up more than any other.

Fred

LOL maybe its because MACs arent supported by the act of god?

anyway i agree totally with the overall point of showing progress. Not words, not cryptic blurbs or rousing ambitions. just picture and videos. I want to know what is in store.

Honestly, im using messiah only for animation...why? because im uncertain about messiahs direction to dedicate more importance on it. Its renderer is powerful, i know, i tried it. However, i want render farm support. and i dont want to be stuck to using butterfly. how about a rudimentary renderfarm access? ala LWSN batch rendering at the very least?

anyway i dont want to turn my post into a feature request. But if there is a request, no, REQUIREMENT - its openness. Also, i would love to be a beta tester if that would help at all. I have down time and would love to throw some fodder for this community. anything i can do to help. believe me i promote this program every chance i get, but you shouldnt rely on users to promote your software if you keep them in the dark.

Also, about the scaling issue.

I have brought this up before. Having some programming experience, i suspect that my nightmarish woes experienced with the soft bodies are linked to the scaling! I know that precision of calculation depends greatly on the numerical scales at play. if you are working with very small values, the precision of your SBD calculations will suffer! i suspected the scaling to be the issues behind SBD and voiced it previously. there was no response as far as i know and would love to hear your thoughts pmg.

Also, resizing my objects in LW is not a solution because i work to real world scale and my scene elements that arent animated in messiah prevent me from scaling to compensate for messiah....

gsuttor
02-15-2006, 09:06 PM
pMG site is back up, I think general updates on information/layout... take a look for yourselves.

Maybe I just havn't looked INSIDE the web site recently, it seems to have been tided up.
Ie: tutorial download section etc, info on develop.

Then again, as I said, been a while since I looked past the front page.

Wegg
02-15-2006, 09:12 PM
What are we looking at? Looks the same as it did. . . doesn't it?

catizone
02-15-2006, 09:33 PM
Well, NOW it looks the same. SHortly after Taron teased all of us, the website was unavailable. Then we had the home page, but that's all, with the various other pages listed at the bottom of the page. (I don't think they were active)

So...rampant speculationrs, from myself and others, wondered if the things Taron hinted at were being prepared, along with a site revision. Purely speculation, and 2 parts dreaming...given that everyone that uses messiah loves it and can't wait for more.

Best,
Rick

Taron333
02-17-2006, 08:24 PM
HAHAHA, damn. Yeah, weired timing! We've switched servers. I'm sorry we're so bad in informing people. I guess we were hoping it would go over a lot quicker! :wip:

Anyway, the migration always takes a moment, so please, be patient and don't worry! :wise:

AND THANX! That's always very nice to read! Yes, there will be a few new things in connection with our site. One of the main thing is that I've requested a little folder that allows me to throw clips into as I go along and make new examples and experiments. My personal website couldn't handle the bandwidth. The website itself is also facing a few additions and changes. We're planning on featuring artists more prominently, adding a new gallery section for beginners and explorers, so to say, and expand our tutorial section!

SOoo, a lot of new things are about to happen! :D

Taron

Sil3
02-17-2006, 08:33 PM
HAHAHA, damn. Yeah, weired timing! We've switched servers. I'm sorry we're so bad in informing people. I guess we were hoping it would go over a lot quicker! :wip:

Anyway, the migration always takes a moment, so please, be patient and don't worry! :wise:



Well server has been up for a while now...hehehe, in the meantime people started gathering on IRC:

Freenode

#messiah3d

Why dont u come up there and make us a visit? :D

Taron333
02-17-2006, 09:31 PM
I CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THAT MUCH in this thread....HAHAHAHAHAHA....great...what entertaining discussions. Fantastic! I think for now I shall just share my delight of reading through the posts...haha! Beautiful. Ark, Titanic, smashed dreams, true believers, Mac vs. PC...hmmm...very wholesome I find! :applause:

Looks like we're closing in on the next release. Looks like there will be only one minor compromise in it in terms of the amount of new output buffers, because we originally wanted to put in absolutely everything anyone could ever want, but realized that a few of these things require yet a little more field research and testing. The new buffers however are working fantastic and should take care of most production needs! We already have a plan for another little update on them shortly after the main release, which should truely make everyone very happy! I'm already psyched about it, because of my little side-project, which happens to benefit from them, too!
Although this might sound a little weired, I was pretty amazed that even if all the 6 buffers are outputting it takes away little to no time per frame...because I expected that the saving should become a bit annoying, but no. That's very pleasant. I'm not used to work like that, really, and it's actually absolutely fantastic. One render and all the major things are ready for compositing. Ahem...eh....I know, sounds like I'm really new to this...but I actually had never worked with Object IDs for compositing, for instance, and it's totally wicked.
Hmmm..... .... ...I really don't know what saying this makes me look like... ...but I try not to care! I'm happy! :cool:

Alright, that much for a little update.

Taron

Julez4001
02-17-2006, 09:33 PM
My personal website couldn't handle the bandwidth. The website itself is also facing a few additions and changes. We're planning on featuring artists more prominently, adding a new gallery section for beginners and explorers, so to say, and expand our tutorial section!

Taron

better hurry before Lightwave and Lux beat you too it.

(sidenote) LW release fantastic video of their new SSS shaders.

Taron333
02-17-2006, 09:35 PM
Well server has been up for a while now...hehehe, in the meantime people started gathering on IRC:

Freenode

#messiah3d

Why dont u come up there and make us a visit? :D

I'm scared! :argh:

Yeah, and then there's the whole "I'm too busy" thing I can't get over! :wip:
Honestly, I'm happy enough I can find the time to check out the thread every once in a while! As you may have noticed, I can get quite sucked in as soon as it comes to communication. Ehm...monoloquish in a way, which I apologize for, but chatting can so quickly become obsessive to me! :bounce:

Sooo...sooner or later I will swing by and join for a moment. But let me just finish my stuff a bit more before I do that! :wip:

Sil3
02-17-2006, 09:43 PM
LOL...dont be scared ahaha, and yes i know that you coming over there is less time you have to code...but see it like having a "virtual beer" :beer: ahahaha

Whenever u have the time/patience drop by even if it is to just say hello, you are more than welcome :)

Taron333
02-17-2006, 10:07 PM
Thanx, I appreciate it!:beer:

ThomasHelzle
02-17-2006, 10:28 PM
Ahem...eh....I know, sounds like I'm really new to this...but I actually had never worked with Object IDs for compositing, for instance, and it's totally wicked.
Scary, really.
"Welcome to the real world Neo" may be a fitting phrase...
Well, if this is true for everyone at pmG, we at least know now why this took so long to implement (which left every real compositor completely baffled since it is so basic...).

If I interpolate that to other things I requested in the past, I no longer wonder about running against walls... If the wall doesn't even know what I'm talking about that is...
One day someone should do some tutorials for all the pmG guys to bring them up to speed about the current state of CG >LOL<
Should be fun to do a XSI 5 Demo for them... ;)

I know this was a very innocent remark Taron, sorry if I jump onto it, but I knew how cool that is for about 6-10 year now...
As next reading in this area I would recommend .rpf and layered .psd output so not every pass has to be a separate sequence (quite annoying if you have a lot of passes and AE uses the integrated data of .rpf for instance in a very direct manner with the 3D-Effects and can extract camera data from it...).

I also recommend looking at Blender every now and then - some wicked stuff in there...

Well, best regards anyway :p

Taron333
02-17-2006, 10:57 PM
Isn't that surprising, that after like 13 feature movies and countless additional projects, a lot of them involving compositing just as well as modeling, rigging, animating and everything else Neo needs to be reminded of the real world by....ahm....Mr.Expert from back home. My methods are made to suffice a very small team and even single artists to create International Awards winning visual effects without the requirement of strict pipelines or other conveniences that serve more convoluted work envirnoments. This is not to defend our late arrival at this common type of feature to have decent output buffers, but to express my annoyance to get lectured by someone, who appears to get more pleasure out of shouting louder than anyone else, instead of understanding how much we're willing and enjoying to complete our tool to fit even the most traditional production environments. Late for you or not, you should cut us some slack, man! :hmm:

Besides, once we're through with them altogether, there's gonna be a really nice reason to start saying "Thanx" again, really. Although, clearly, it's merely a faint hope of mine to ever hear you say "thanx" again. "Again" because I believe to remember that there was a time when you said that. But maybe that was just me interpreting?! :shrug:

I like the PSD idea. Our RLA should also get buffed out with it all, because I don't think it is, yet. There are a bunch of formats that contain plenty of extra layers. I don't know of all of them, but we'll figure them out. Particularely, of course, the most common once and they'll come first!

Taron

ThomasHelzle
02-17-2006, 11:10 PM
It is just too much fun actually ;)
You are right, my "thanks" are all used up as far as pmG is concerned as well as any patience I ever had.
And no, you don't have to thank me for it either, so it should be a fair deal in the end :thumbsup:

.rpf as its successor is much more advanced than .rla, so I vote for it.

Cheers,

Wegg
02-17-2006, 11:12 PM
HA HAHAH! Well said Taron.

I personally can only think of one instance when I have ever "needed" a render layer in all my time doing this. I'm a strong believer in getting it right in the renderer itself.

That being said I'm SOOooo glad they are coming. It will finally break down that mental wall that people have about Messiah's renderer and more people will actually start using it.

Thomas you know we love you and we don't want you to go away. . . but lets please ease up on the high and mighty "I have been telling them to do this for years" stuff.

I have been asking for things for years too. Sometimes they even listen. But most of the time they pat me on the shoulder and say "thats nice". :D

Taron333
02-17-2006, 11:29 PM
AND we shall continue to pat you on the shoulder and say: That's VERY nice, Weggy! :thumbsup:

HAHAHA, no really, it's been a long road and all that, but it really feels like breaking into the sea, kind of like Mr.Hanks in "Cast Away" trying to leave the island on a selfmade raft and overcome the huge breaking waves. As it all comes together it become easier to focus on specific things and therefore listen and react more immediate to all the requests.

However, if it wasn't for the many great requests of yours, a lot of things that deserved or even needed attention wouldn't have made it into the mix already! Weighting them and prioritizing them is a complex matter depending on the existing framework, knowledge and current development. We've actual been putting more focus on getting things done fluently as opposed to having dozens of flames burning at the same time. Well, they do that anyway, but we're narrowing down our immediate focus on finishing up two or three things at the same time, sometimes even just ONE (even if that happens rarely!). :banghead: :wip: :lightbulb :buttrock:

So, I think it's save to say that everything you're asking for is noticed and cared for, even if it's not taken care of immediately it will eventually....well....not everything, we've heard all sorts of things. We will NEVER have a software synth build into our particle system! ;)

ThomasHelzle
02-17-2006, 11:49 PM
It is said that war is the father of all things....

I find it very interesting that nothing more is needed than some very stupid little joke in another thread from a non-award-winning barbarian from back home (me) to extract more information about what is going on with messiah than every other thread revealed for a long time.

Now since I seem to be able to press that precious little red button so easily, I just have to do that every half year and get an instant update.
Cool feature :p

Have a nice day anyway and don't get that blood pressure to high, I'm not worth that,

Regards.

Nichod
02-18-2006, 12:04 AM
Denis Diderot defined war as "a convulsive and violent disease of the body politic;"

Let bygones be bygones. I say. I think we all just need to give Thomas a great big hug. What do you all think?

Taron333
02-18-2006, 12:07 AM
Hey, saves me a trip to the eliptical, no complaints! :D

Besides, I'd have to credit Weggy for this thread and you do represent mostly the overcooked eggplant in the soup. But there's still a mild but noticable entertainment value in your delusions of grandeur. And you're not pushing buttons, you're slamming with a sledgehammer wildly around and occasionally happen to scratch a worn but still functional trigger panel. :shrug:

I should only blame you for pushing me into a somewhat arrogant remark of my own. But honestly, I need to have the freedom to occasionally vent a tiny little bitty. :scream:

And who down there thought that arks and titanics could lead to some longer discussions. Thomas and I will show you how that's done! :argh: :rolleyes:

Wegg
02-18-2006, 12:07 AM
yea. . . nice place to end it. Thomas your shaders rule. . . Taron I can't wait to get hold of all these cool features.

THE END

Parsec3d
02-18-2006, 12:09 AM
I SAID THE END!

Man you guys are quick.

Sorry Parsec.

Start a new thread thats a little less heated about his shaders. k? - Wegg