The 3D Career De-Mystified - Part 2

[shaangfx]

:beer:

This is really cool! a must read for every new 3D wanna be!
part 1 and part 2 are really intresting and very much well answered with keen interest!

i personally found every person interviewed inspirational!
great wrk teo!

WORK HARD! RENDER FAST! RETIRE YOUNG!

All the best and hope everyone finds cool jobs!:wavey: :thumbsup: :buttrock: :bounce:

[Sean Johnston]

These are wonderful articles, I really appricate the work of whomever tracked all these industry professionals down. Great work.

[PotatoHead]

yes, indeed, certainly worth the while!:bounce:

congrats once again all you 3dfestival people!! - yes, you too lildragon:thumbsup:

[Dominique]

5 stars

Dominique

[AWAKE]

David is really keepin it real. Nice work.

[NightFox]

Keep the hope alive, and you too could see yourself getting a real job! No more delivering pizzas or tech support for computer companies. YAY!

Though your parents will probably call you anyways to tell you that they heard from one of your classmate's parents that they got a job making alot more money than you. Then ask when you're going to stop playing on that damn machine and do some real work.

I got my hope flame burning bright. As should everyone. :thumbsup:

[aspiretek]

As a current student in 3D Animation I've found these articles very enlightening.....I really appreciated it. Thanks so much Leonard. :thumbsup:

[imashination]

I appreciate these articles very much and so far they have been fantastic, but am I the only one who found David Gould from Weta's advice a bit..... well....... crap?

So far everyone has mentioned that formal training can help but certainly isn't all that important. It is the work you do that will get you a job. Anyone and everyone will tell you the same thing.

David even goes as far as to say you can't get a US work visa without a university degree!

[DaKrunch]

These articles are a MUST for who wants to break in the industry!
thanks everyone for the job

good luck!
:applause:

[toast3d]

Great articles! Thanks very much for the very useful information. :)

regards,
Larry W

[PokeChop]

Thanks everyone for these articles. A lot of great information here for everyone to read. Don't miss out!

[SheepFactory]

Originally posted by imashination

David even goes as far as to say you can't get a US work visa without a university degree!

Thats very much true. You cant get one.

[stephen2002]

great stuff. These two articles were really interesting. :thumbsup:

[dstripinis]

US immigration states that in order to qualify for an H1-B Work Visa you either have to have a university degree ( from an institution recognized by the INS, not like "Bob's Art Skool" ), three years experience/school year to get degree ( 12 years xper = a BFA degree ), or have a review of your qualifications proving there is NO ONE in the US who can do what you do.

Also, there are a very limited number of visa's that can be given out per year, and that number has gone down since 9/11. Also, where you are from matters a great deal. People from Great Britain and Canada have an easier time than those from France, Japan or Germany, who in turn have an easier time than those in Russia or China, who have it easia than those from the middle east, except Israel.

[Grgeon]

Great articles!
Very insightful and interesting. It's given me a lot of things to think about, and also gotten me more excited about reaching my goals as a 3d animator.

God Bless,
George

P.S.
hey Jason S. you kinda look like a cousin of mine. Maybe we're related....
here's hoping :)

[NOV]

Thanks to Leonard and lildragon for contribute their time and effort for the 3D community! These information are not only useful to ones are looking for job in US, but also ones who wants to work in US overseas. No place else I know has such good resource like this. I truely appreciate to everyone who were willing to share their valuable experience. Great job, guys!!

[Silver_Angel777]

well said NIGHTFOX, my folks would always go on about my cousins or mates who earn't thousands doing 'proper jobs', and worked in banks and offices etc, whilst me and my acting, design, and music career went nowhere......everyone recognised my abilities but reality is still tough and what these guys said in their interviews is true.....

I won't give up, and hey, we all get older, but our souls and our minds and our imaginations remain as inventive and furtive as ever, and this will help us push through to what people who do earn thousands for banks etc, will never know the feeling of.......creating something and having a talent which makes us 'live'......you see, we are lucky as we may be poor and haven't found our place yet, but we have talents and sensibilities which make us feel good, and if it wasn't for people like us, there wouldn't be any entertainments on earth for my cousins and friends or my folks to go and spend their recreational time on.

Next time your folks or friends make unfair remarks whilst watching movies or listening to music, reading books, or going to play on their expensive computer games consoles.......tell them they would be sitting on their butts doing nothing if it wasn't for people like you (us), and that if George Lucas, or Steven Spielberg, and the rest, did 'proper jobs', then there would be no OBI-WAN or E.T .........

USE THE FORCE.......hey, anyone religious.....atleast if you talk to the creator God, you are talking to the first and best creator and most famous guy around....hey, he could or may not pull some strings, but prayer tends to be answered if it's meant to be, but it's t an excuse to laze around, so get to those computers and get to work.......I am new to this side of computer arts, besy get learning stuff.........loads to do right, I guess !


bye

[hopper2k]

Wow, great articles. As a beginner in 3D, I learned a great deal from those. :thumbsup:

[insect666]

WOW!
Good work guys! :thumbsup:

Since I'm one of those "wannabees", I find these articles VERY useful. It's some really great info!

Just want to say THANK YOU.
Though I can't imagine how to express my thanks. :bounce:

x:=0;
while x=0 do
begin
WriteLn;
WriteLn ('Thank you!');
end;

[bblackbourn]

What a relief to hear someone pretty much telling it as it is about this industry - thanks Dave...(& thanks guys for doing the interviews!)

It's good for potential digital artists to hear the hard realities that the schools & industry spin doctors (& recruiters) don't want them to know - that it's a VERY tough road in this game if you're going to make it & still be earning a living at it in 10 years. The good times & easy money of the mid 90's are gone & it's going to be more about plain hard work, long hours, poor money & office politics in the years ahead.

It's like the advice that the wise give to the budding actors, desperate to sign up for acting school and become stars - "if you simply **cannot** live without being an actor, then act, but if you think you're going to make decent money, have a career or even work regularly or support a mortgage or a family then **forget** it! Go get a job & join the local drama society for fun. You'll be glad you did."

It's something to consider, especially if you're about to commit to very expensive, long term college or school courses.

It would have been good, but not very PC for them to mention (in regard to the stability question) that when you **do** get gigs - make sure you SAVE as much money as possible (you should always have a 6 months survival cash fund) as you should assume you may be out of work for an average 3-6 months per year in the future, as the numbers of available, cheap, qualified artists increase & permanent, staff jobs decrease.

Yes, there are good jobs out there & there are some people that can hold down jobs for many years, but unless you're one of those people *now*, consider that there's a whole heap of CG artists & animators with 5-10 years experience on multiple feature films/commercials that cannot find work now. They have mortgages to pay & kids to feed, so they'll take on virtually anything for any money - so that's who's competing for the jobs that do appear.

On a more upbeat note - the **most** important thing was hinted at in those interviews is personal networking. 99% of all jobs never get advertised - they are filled by referral, so whatever you do...network, network,network. Again, it's like acting, it's WHO you know that gets you the opportunities. Then it's only a question of whether your reel/resume/personality is so offensive that it prevents you from getting that job....
Oh...another thing...make sure you **always** are applying for at least 20 different opportunities (even when you've got a long term gig), of that 20: 4 will lose your apllication, 8 just won't contact you, 4 will never begin (project cancelled or shelved or they were just fishing), 2 will talk & talk & talk & never quite make be able to commit on anything ("we'll know next week..."), 1 will offer you a really crap deal......& the last one will probably call you with a decent offer just as you cross the state line with all your worldly belongings in a u-haul truck because you've accepted the crap one... ;)

NB Most of these comments are not referring to the games industry necessarily (I'm not qualified to comment), more film/TV....

BTW As virtually all those guys had got into the industry before/during the halcyon days of the mid-90's, they are relatively secure - so it would be interesting to have some interviews with people having entered the game in the last 2-3 years.

Thanks again for the articles & good luck to those out there whose **all-consuming-passion** is becoming (or staying!) a professional CG artist!

"Let's be careful out there!!!"


.....your mileage may vary.....

[Silver_Angel777]

bblackbourn you are correct on some points....

but don't be so pessimistic....if you pursue things, you eventually will get somewhere, but it is going to be hard work and insecure like everything else today remember that.

Another thing, designers can make a good name for themselves and can have a long carrer remaining as hands on artists if they have something to offer which is different from the normal.
A lecturer of mine once told me that he wouldn't employ someone in his studio unless he thought they hd something else to add to his studio, and he didn't mind my inability to be able to do loads of cool marker renderings or stylised 3d sketches.....he said he and many others could do that, but he said I had a remarkable imagination and way of working directly from mind to actual 3d (real models etc) he said he hadn't seen this before and told me that it is the imagination and your unique input which makes things in the end. You see I take longer to sketch than to actually just go ahead and model in real 3d....I actually find more freedom and ability to directly work in 3d.....of course the 2d sketches are meant as a fast way to get ideas down, but he told me to work with sketch models in styro-foam and directly get 'in there' with an idea......I worked faster and the designs came out spot on as i had imagined them !!!!!

You need to also be able to do what others can as alot of projects are not always glamorous, it can be abit like drone work !
I am currently unemployed and have worked in the games industry, getting my break 2 and a half years ago.
I did get in because of a friend recommending me an interview, and I got the job purely on my work...but the reality is, that if they can get people they know who are decent guys or friends of other artists which get along with everyone, then they know that if your work is cool, you have a great chance of getting the job because they presume you will 'one of the guys' just like your friend who works there, and if he or she puts a good word in and says they know you to be honest and decent and a possible team player, then of course you will be in if your work is up to standard.....

The worst thing is to take a risk with someone who may seem a decent person and has great work and then once employed becomes a pain to tolerate and to work with, and he then messes up the work environment.
People you know are considered less of a risk, they say that people judge others by the company of their friends, quite true.
It's not to say you won't get in unless you don't know anyone, ....most guys where I worked just had good folios/showreels and got the job, and have since moved to other jobs in the games industry where they knew nobody !!!

You have to be positive and assertive, honest and yourself !
have a good folio and you also need to persist with applications etc.... Yes experience is the real bummer sometimes, and I can't deny this.

I didn't do any fancy work where I was, I had to pay my dues and eventually I was moved onto some decent work like textures and front end stuff, but we had too many 3d artists so I wasn't allowed to do any 3d, and frankly, i got out of practice fast and have to re-learn alot now....back to square one !
I did have the opportunity to learn other skills though but trying to learn MAX techniques at home in the evenings didn't last long for me as eventually I would just want to relax abit or do something else instead of being infront of a computer all day.....I don't hate this, it's just i used to get home at 10pm and it wasn't much of a life after a while.

The company to be honest was run so badly that it ran out of cash in August and I was made redundant. I had no dissmissal letter, no notice and we subsequently found out that the boss had openned another company behind our backs and was trying to make our current company go bankrupt for the obvious reasons of not paying anyone he owed money to.
All this after being loyal and underpaid and with no pension or health benefits...we were all in the same boat !!!
We knew he would prefer to get guys from University who wanted a break and cost less, than to pay for experience and nutured skills.....he didn't have a clue about design and games and never had passion for them, only money....Things went bad in the end as a result!!!!
He owes me loads of money as he didn't pay us for a long time, infact we didn't realise this at first, and well, he roughly owes me a third of a year's wages.......but he says he has no money, despite opperating from plush new offices with another name !!!!

Beware the sharks......but not all compannies are like this, and so please don't get pessemistic ,there are many compannies about that are very good, so don't worry !!!!

In any case, I was using alot of inhouse stuff and well I have to learn Max properly, I am a rookie really, and I have to get back to the 3d stuff I love and give games design etc another crack.....
I am lucky to know people in games design, and to have had 2 and a half years of experience, however it ended up, but in the end, I need to now get my skills and techniques back to speed, and produce a new portfolio and get my self in gear.....the last few months I have actually been getting back into my music and acting and writing stuff.......because I was abit disillusioned with the games development industry, but I can see all disciplines, even office jobs (which can be worse as people are expendable like 'drones' most of the time just doing a job rather than a skill, unlike individual artists with a particular style and skill and imagination!!) have their insecurity and unfair practices and workloads.....but in the end, many jobs nowadays are the same in this insecure way, so if you have the drive and passion and talent , I would say it was better to try in something you loved and were great at, than to do something you hated and weren't good at, because then even if the 'normal job' you hated was even quite secure, you probably wouldn't do it so well and would end up losing or leaving it in the long run....


Good luck to all, we have a voice and we must use it.....

[Digiegg]

i enjoyed reading that.
It kind of lifted my hopes up ^^

[bblackbourn]

as silverangel_777 says, there's definitely opportunities out there for those that are persistent & hard working.

But the industry (especially in the US) is becoming more short-contract based, so despite the mainstream media's many glowing, glamourous accounts of how cool, well paid & exciting this game is, I would still strongly warn people with family/finiancial commitments/other careers that it may not be a good time to jump on the animation bandwagon. It may be a long hard road to financial stability. :shame:

In fact I've got a lot of friends & colleagues that after 5-10 years of working our butts off are looking to get out & into something that's more reliable & stable & family friendly.

That said, if you're starting out & aren't too hung up with financial commitments - you can have a blast! And definitely try to take the opportunity to work abroad with lots of crazy artists from different cultures - those experiences are worth much more than the money & often the project itself. You end up with friends all over the world.

Happy travels! :thumbsup:

[Silver_Angel777]

NissanSexima , I am glad I have made you feel happier, but hey, you are around 18 looking at your profile, so you haven't got to worry about anything, let's face it, you can have a good crack at getting into the industry and even if it dosn't work out as blackbourn does sensibly warn, you can still can do something else.........if it makes you feel better, I am 30 and still trying to get back into things, and though people say I have a young crazy outlook and character, and look 24, it doesn't matter, I still know that my clock is ticking and sometimes people think that at 30 you are either the top of your career or too late to do much else.......but it's nonsense, but I did have negative thoughts about this once, because the way society percieves age and where you should be at a certain period in your life.
People change careers, people get into different areas of design etc.
Life nowadays wasn't like it was 'back then' in my parents day where you had a single career or job, and it was secure for life and companies and their staff were loyal to each other and your job was secure aslong as you didn't do anything wrong.
Now people change careers and things in their life alot more, and most industries and jobs aren't very secure and even if they are, many people like to move on to different work environments within their particular field...........for example, an ex-collegue where i used to work as a games artist, decided to leave his job and become a fireman, and works freelance on the side !

I studied Product design at Uni and since it was a Bachelor of Science, I know quite abit about manufacturing and engineering, and so was quite a course, and blended art, enginnering , maths etc, and was a far cry from art college days. It was great though, but not an easy industry to break into and much much more closed than games and animation.
I never managed to get into this industry, and though I have a UK and US patent, I haven't managed to make any money yet as it all costs alot of money and time and needs a manufacturer to take your ideas on, and this involves marketing which involves much time and money, and since most patents never make money or get given a chance by industry, it's all abit disheartening.

I have also studied music, and was told I was prodigious as a kid, and I am getting back to it now, but used to be detered froma career in music back then, because i was told it was tough and insecure etc, but then so is design and anything, that's why i tell people to follow their dreams as ok, it may not always be reasonable to say this, but then i believe and tell people that if you are great at what you do, and you aren't kidding yourself, and you love it with an obssessive passion that makes you feel so happy and you are pleased to persist with it no matter how tough........go for it.

Do you think the Beatles would have persisted if they would have taken the old saying; "you'll never make any money playing music..." ? Music is its own reward, as is anything you love, and ok you need to feed yourself and pay the rent, but if everyone gave up with everything they loved bbecause it was hard, then there would be no films, actors, rock bands, artists, books, etc for our pleasure and entertainment, and there would be alot of depressed unfulfilled people on earth to look at too !!!!!!

You have to do what you love and are great at because you love it, ....every job will pay, aslong as you do it well and love it enough to chase it and see it through.

As a kid maybe I should have studied my music to career level as I wanted, but i was so young that I never knew much about the world like now, and at that age you do as you are told and take older people's advice, or you rebel and get grief and and thrown out !

I must say though that I went for design instead because i also love this too, and seemed more of an stable path in the eyes of people around me, but it isn't ..........

I am now at a point in my life where I have decided to try and get back into games design whilst studying music again.
Life is such a journey and i wish i was just securely in one field and that my journey was more of a straighter path so that i could say i was now a big shot designer with loads of experience in a particular field.
Instead I am still finding my next piece of the puzzle which is my life. I am told my imagination and talents are really remarkable and that i should do this and that etc, but yet I am in the same boots as many of you guys and girls out there despite having experience in different fields and having had my hand in various arts and experiences.

This is also a good thing, but life isn't long enough, but atleast I have been lucky to be able to do other things and to be able to achieve things others wouldn't have had the chance to, and to have been able to meet so many people in life which I would never have met if I didn't walk the path I have.

I wish I was 18 again, not because I feel or look old, but because you feel you have more time to be able to develop things with, and because society and certain people can treat others unfairly the older thet get if they haven't reached a certain level in their particular field, rather than focusing on what they can do and offer and who they are as a person.

NissanSexima , don't worry too much,... when I was younger, I didn't have access to the internet here in the UK where I live, and though we knew of it, it was way behing the U.S, and the only kind of research and tutorials for artistic techniques were out of date books at the local library or college library and I had to keep asking my college for really expensive books to be ordered for the college library, many books being hard to get hold of and if we ever got them in, they were always being borrowed between the entire college, or because of their expense, were only for reference purposes.
We managed, but as you can imagine, it wasn't ideal and computer arts in any case back then, wasn't what it is now....
.......most younger guys and girls really don't realise how lucky you are to just go online and get any tutorials you like and even order rare books on the web now.
Even for forums like this one, and the ability to share ideas and hear the latest developments in the industry, were impossible in the UK some time back.....and it was a developing new one with more possibilies than certainties.

I was lucky enough to have been able to experiment and use early Photoshop and Autocad (great but complicated to learn compared to Max) packages though, and some i just can't remember the names of which were on the old NIMBUS computers. Also i enjoyed my ATARI ST which I saved up to buy and use the paint packages with. I had alot of great 2d stuff i can only remember now, which was sadly lost along with my pc when we burglars entered our home and took everything I had
:annoyed: This did set me back a while as I was so upset and as a result never got another computer for some time after. I just was upset about it all and I ended up sticking to pencil and paper for a long while.

keep it up and if any rookies or worried guys and girls out there get disheartened or worried, just bare in mind what I have said.

I thought I would leave you with a final note my friend had to say about the games industry from his experiences, as it may help both younger and older CG artists.
He works in a famous games company (I won't mention), and he says his job is stable.
After asking him various things, he wrote this to me, and i am sure he wouldn't mind me sharing it with you all in the jope it will keep your spirits high :

"..... it's not just a young mans industry and people work so differently that it's impossible to compare any two
employees in the same field.
I personally would like you to stay with the games industry because you have some great ideas and, yes, it's going to be difficult to get those ideas listened to until you've got yourself some nice kudos with your employers, but that is true for most people. All it takes is a moment and everything can
change...you could do 1 year at a company and then in a meeting with your team you say "Wouldn't it be good if we did this or that kind of game?" and the game gets made and hits No. 1 in the charts....just a moment, and as long as you believe it can happen, it CAN or WILL happen......faith is about believing..and as long as you believe and follow that belief, your will is
good.


:thumbsup:

[epatnor]

Originally posted by Silver_Angel777
...if it makes you feel better, I am 30 and still trying to get back into things, and though people say I have a young crazy outlook and character, and look 24, it doesn't matter, I still know that my clock is ticking and sometimes people think that at 30 you are either the top of your career or too late to do much else.......but it's nonsense, but I did have negative thoughts about this once, because the way society percieves age and where you should be at a certain period in your life.
People change careers, people get into different areas of design etc.

I myself are in my early 30:s, and have not yet produced anything that even resembles a portfolio. This is my constant and ten year long headache, and I wonder if I'm ever going to fulfill my dream.

But as you point out, people change and people change paths in life. There is probably as many artists that bounce out of the industry against their will, that there are artist that deliberatly chooses other ways to express themself. Or just want a career change...

I refuse to get discouraged. Because --- even if I don't get a job at Pixar or Weta or Disney or Digital Domain... what I really want to do is deal with the passion I have for FX and animation! And I have always had a feeling I can hack it...

Up til now, I have'nt had the time. Full time jobs as computer/network engineer, and supervisor of surveillance systems for optical telecom equipment, I've had a hard time finding empty slots in my calendar where I can keep fiddling with my hobby.

I will seek cretive things to do in other ways. It might become clear that what I really with to do is paint in oil, or just do sketches, or industrial design, or something with moving images. The latter is obvious, I just burn for movies and effects, but I think that there are many ways to get there. Or find something that perhaps substitutes this...

Well, at least I am right now in school, picking up media and later - some animation! :thumbsup:

[Silver_Angel777]

well said, and don't get down about it, there are many people in our shoes, and in so many other disciplines too, and people getting out of the industry because they want to go and become something else !! ....... just keep cool.....

Merry Christ-mas, and a peaceful great new Year....to all.

[DiOrio]

I found the interviews to be very informative. Thanks for putting them together Leonard! Happy Holidays to all.:thumbsup:

[aazimkhan]

Those were really informative, just the questions i have been wanting to ask. I would love to see more of such interviews in the future. I know its hard arrange to meet these people and make it happen.

Really good work.

[lilnyc]

lildragon,

You've done a great service with your Careers in 3D piece. I am an actress with an extensive radio and TV background, now training to get into 3D.

I am an undergrad of multimedia and 3D animation at N.Y.U., looking to get a masters there soon in 3D Digital Design. This field is completely new to me, so your article answered a lot of questions!

I am fortunate to know people in the industry from my past experience in the general field of entertainment, so with school & contacts, I think I'll do okay.

I don't expect to make the big bucks nor get on huge projects immediately, but I'm unemployed now, so if I can get any job in 3D, I'll be happy. But if I'm heading into another field of starving artist, I have reservations. We'll see.

[lilnyc]

Silver Angel, you said...

"if it wasn't for people like us, there wouldn't be any entertainments on earth for my cousins and friends or my folks to go and spend their recreational time on."


Excellent point and excellent post!

[lilnyc]

Originally posted by imashination
I appreciate these articles very much and so far they have been fantastic, but am I the only one who found David Gould from Weta's advice a bit..... well....... crap?

So far everyone has mentioned that formal training can help but certainly isn't all that important. It is the work you do that will get you a job. Anyone and everyone will tell you the same thing.



The way I understood it was that he was saying that there's so many in the pool for employers to choose from, that the field's more comptitive, so having a degree can give you a leg up. But as others, he emphasized that your reel speaks volumes.

[lilnyc]

bblackbourn,

Your post was as informative as the article.Thanks!

[lilnyc]

Originally posted by Silver_Angel777
I would say it was better to try in something you loved and were great at, than to do something you hated and weren't good at, because then even if the 'normal job' you hated was even quite secure, you probably wouldn't do it so well and would end up losing or leaving it in the long run....


Good luck to all, we have a voice and we must use it.....

That's me. Although I've worked in TV (at MTV) and radio (for Tom Joyner at ABC Radio), I was unfulfilled after a while. I was among the stars, but not one of them. I wasn't expressing my creativity. I even did jingles for major companies, but consistant work never came about.

Some of these articles and comments can be discouraging in some areas, especially when talking stability. I returned to college to get a stable career. Then too, I really am not looking for much and can see myself using my 3D skills on the low end, or returning to broadcast, using the N.Y.U. name on the degree to get me somewhere, anywhere. I only need to pay my rent, bills and buy groceries - not many demands. So I'm hopeful.

[Silver_Angel777]

hello lilnyc... !
:rolleyes:

thanks for your appreciation of my, aswell as other's comments as it i nice to see people taking helpful and uplifting advice with them from our experiences....it makes it worth the while in having written them as we feel passionately about our cause.

I would like to point out that you seemed disheartened about this which you pointed out in your last message;

____________________________________________________
That's me. Although I've worked in TV (at MTV) and radio (for Tom Joyner at ABC Radio), I was unfulfilled after a while. I was among the stars, but not one of them. I wasn't expressing my creativity. I even did jingles for major companies, but consistant work never came about.
____________________________________________________

You shouldn't feel disheartened because these jobs are usually opennings for other opportunities or for ways in which you can eventually show someone your work because you are amongst them all.......don't feel disheartened and I suggest you kep these links up after your studies........these are what most people will give their right arm for, so don't feel bad.....feel great !

Also don't worry about being among stars and not one of them.....being famous because you want the world to recognise your abilities is cool, but don't feel bad about not having fame because nowadays there are many people who are famous but not at all very talented, so don't use fame or success as a measure of your abilities or talents. Do what you do because it makes you feel that you are being utilised in life, and that you can be able to express your imagination which is inside of you.

If it makes you feel better, I have rubbed shoulders with some amazing artists in my time, through studies and work.
I have met people from various jobs and walks of life, and to be honest, most of the the most talented people I have ever met, were what society would call 'drop-outs' or 'losers' etc, because they also had eccentric tendencies and suffered from depression and some could say they were nuts !! This obviously affects their lives and stability and they still haven't got anywhere with their talents. I won't go into any particular person, but I must say that their problems were a bi-product of their amazing 'over the normal' abilities, so with their gift came their curse.
A part in their brain must make them 'super talented', to the detriment of their normal workings of their brain !

You will always have great talents, but the true genius's or most remarkable types in any creative field will be found to most probably and without doubt, an obbsessive, super sensitive and depressive or/and mentally instable personality.....or they wouldn't be so good at what they do !

This doesn't mean it's ok for them to lead a life of ruin, certainly not, but it shows that there are most probably more talented people out their which could be using their gifts to change the world, make a good movie, write a great comedy, compose a great tune, etc........but instead they can't cope with life and either they make it and manage to discipline and try and pick themselves up and make a great career for themselves and possibly become famous, or they end up not being able to handle the pressure and just go and do a normal career or job. I have known some of these people to just waste their lives away in pessimistic thoughts and concerns and fear the future and so not even try and pick themselves up at all. They can sadly remain lost souls never utilising their lives and never being recognised for anything except their mental problems which ruin them.

This is not to say that people who are perfectly ok are not highly talented.
But I have just brought it up as there are so many great talents and geniuses out there that the world will never know and which will remain unknown and un-utilised, so let's not feel too bad about the positions we are in.

By contrast, the pretty 'normal' people and not very talented people I have known in life and in the creatives fields, have actually been the ones with more self-discipline and confidence, and have been the most pushy types and so have gotten far in life.
Alot of it is to do with being confident (not arrogant), thus giving an employer confidence in you from your own self belief, and selling yourself and being a decent person , a team player, willing to give 100% at work....This is a hell of a lot to do with many things.
I know a few guys who have done very well for themselves in the games industry, and hadn't had much experience and were not any better or worse than anyone else who I have worked with.
Anyway these guys that made it, did it through sheer hard work and confidence in their abilities, and continual persistance until they got to the compannies and positions they wanted.
The others I know haven't got to where they have wanted to yet, but I can see they lack confidence in various forms, and have a pessimistic nature and depressive outlook.
They also give up too easily for fear they may not be ready etc, and so fail to be persistent in their pursuits.

Don't get discouraged, be positive, persist, and don't let people drag you down with the same old "...do a proper job..." nonsense.
I have had my ups and downs, and don't know whether to stick to acting and comedy, writing, music, or design, or all of them which is abit too much !!!!!

I can say one thing, if I was working in radio or tv like you did, I would try and show people around me my scripts or comedy stuff etc, when it was the right time, and try and get ahead in this way, as you always need to let someone on the inside get a chance to see your work and give it a chance.......maybe you can follow these contacts up once you have finished your studies and work back in the media again in this way, and then show them your portfolio of work and see what happens, or apply internally for other posts.......?

If you don't mind me asking, how did you get into tv and radio before you went back to studying ?
You seem a very happy type of person with loads of optimism and I know you will succeed....you will be fine..... ;)

I hope I haven't gone on too long..... but hope I have said something useful !

byeeee for now.......keep cool !:airguitar

[horus01]

I found the article very enlighting and full off usefull things!!
The article just gives me more desire to continue!!


Especially now, while i'm looking for a position in the 3D industry.
Therefore my thanx to Leonard!!:thumbsup:





thanx

[raine]

Leonard Teo, thank you for taking the time and putting together such a good article!! :)
dstripinis... Some nice info you took the time to post that i found interesting :) ... you can also get married to an american and come to the US, as i have done for my X :P
Silver_Angel777, I liked all that you wrote and found it interesting... liked the point you made "I can see all disciplines, even office jobs (which can be worse as people are expendable like 'drones' most of the time just doing a job rather than a skill, unlike individual artists with a particular style and skill and imagination!!)" Thanks for the good reading!!

epatnor-
"I myself are in my early 30:s, and have not yet produced anything that even resembles a portfolio. This is my constant and ten year long headache, and I wonder if I'm ever going to fulfill my dream. ".... i feel you on that one.... im 23, not quite 30 but still feel you :) I dont have much more than a high school education. I feel like i am running out of time. I am working a job right now that is not worth even mentioning, i was laid of as a graphic artist for newspaper production and have been forced to take a job so i can eat.

I dont even need a job in 3d to satisfy me, I would be happy being able to creat all the things that i imagine. It is my lack of knowing the software that is holding me back. I would like to spend alot more time modeling. Has anyone taken any modeling classed at Gnomon? was just curios if they are any good. (little off topic on that one :P)

Well since i am at my crapy temp job as i speak Alt+tabing back and forth from the program i am supposed to be in and the internet... trying not to get caught :) i better end my posting. Sorry if its just a buch of boring repetativeness of reading the other peoples posts, i just wanted to make a few comments. Anywhoo very nice posts by everyone and has been fun reading them.
... ooh also want to add that i love how the 3d community is, not having a job in is isnt so bad when you meet good people and learn great things from the people that gather here or IRC or anywhere online. We are a great community, i hope it stays this way.

Leonard Teo Thansk again man

:thumbsup:

[Silver_Angel777]

Cheers Raine.....I am glad my observations have been well accepted.
hey don't worry, you have 7 years more until you reach my age, and hey, I am in your shoes !!!!
I am probably in worse shoes for the fact that i am going through a period of depression and stress and I am feeling like I am in a hole whilst many others seem to be full of prosperity or hope.

It doesn't make matters good for me that I am trying to keep up with my music, my writing, my acting and my designing, because these each require much time alone, and me trying to keep all up is burning me out and not really making me keep up with any single disipline as fully as I ought to !!!!!
The problem is, I them all and am equally as good in all !!!!!
The other problem is that these disciplines are all as hard to get somewhere with as each other........so if I concentrate on one for a hopeful profession, I would probably say that i should have chosen an other if i had no luck with it !!!!! Therefore i want to keep them all up, but this is hard......and not ideal !

If I could tell the future, it would be helpful but I can't !!!!
This problem is holding me back somewhat, because when i focus on music, I am happy, but then feel I can offer the design world so much and get stuck into that more, and then i think about my comedy and acting and realise i make people happy with that and enjoy it, that i then stick to that more, and I keep going around in circles !!!

The thing about performing arts, is that it is a realtime art, and comes very natural to me,....but the problem with design, is that it takes much learning of packages and staying infront of a computer for hours before an idea I have sketched from my head comes to fruition !!!! This is the nature of 'solid' art.

Until I decide what it the greater art for myself, or the most appropriate for me to hopefully determne a career with, i doubt I will ever focus on just one discipline. I wish i could be given some sign or something.......anyone have any views on what could be the 'best art form'.....


bye for now

[epatnor]

Silver_Angel777:

Is it possible that there actually is a simple answer to your last question? I'm wondering... since I am in a similar position myself (the hole :) )

The artform that makes me fell most comfortable, and is the most "effective" way for me to express myself, and is the thing that moves both my mind and my soul the most as I am being creative with it - shouldn't that be the "right" artform for me then?

Since - if I work and create in the discipline that fulfill the above criterias - I sincerely think that that will show in my work. And that will show on my reel. And maybe that will pursuade a future employer!

And that will push me even further, to learn and master packages or crafts, to create - I know that creativity isn't something that hits you like a lightning from clear blue sky (well OK, sometimes it does), but most often happen when I struggle with something and suddenly things start to work! Then I see the possibilities, and then I feel good about myself and the project, and then - things start to roll. Man, I just love the feeling of getting hit by inspiration.

This is going to make me sound like the CG nerd that I am - I actually think that the feeling of inspiration is better than sex! Well with a couple of exeptions.... :p

Silver_Angel777 - wich one of the artforms that you mentioned have ever moved you so much that you felt like the world was before your feet? Don't tell me "every single one" - I have a feeling that you know it in your gut. Well, at least concentrate on that then! If you don't want to let the other ones go - that's because you are afraid. To having made the wrong choice - am I right?

A Swedish film director, Ingmar Bergman http://homevideo.about.com/library/weekly/aa070701a.htm once said (about choosing scenes in moviemaking):

"Kill your darlings."

This is something that I have lived by somewhat. When doing design, and I end up with a couple where I have (for example) one good and one great - and it turns out that that one that was only "good" suites the project better - I just take a deep breath and get rid of the "great" one!

Well dats it 4 now - gotta go! But even if all this was just ramblings by a mad man - think about it anyways. Well I now you already have but... Think again.

Cheers! :beer:

[Silver_Angel777]

Thanks epatnor for your advice, and don't worry, I agree with what you have said.
I suffer from a perfectionist personality and so I can be completely crazy about achieving a work of art beyond even the most descerning standards of many artists.
The problem with this is that by me not 'killing my darlings', and worse still, being caught up in my own world of searching for that extra higher creative step each time, I find myself in the position of an artist which could be fast becoming unproductive and uncommercially viable !!!!!!

In my crazy attitude though, I would always think myself as being an artist for the pursuit of the imagination and to achieve as much as I possibly can without compromising simply because if I do begin to compromise (ok, some restrictions can squeeze an even greater design out than previouisly thought !!) , then I am nolonger being true to my full ideas, but instead more of a 'suit and tie' business man turning my art into a 'ok' commercial work.

Yes ok, I admit having to 'killing my darlings' because the technology wouldn't allow, or time wouldn't allow, or plain simply because some of our programmers couldn't achieve what we in the art department were pushing for........oh well, but I never felt happy working like this, because true in my heart, i have been more of a imaginative dreamer, trying to realise those dreams and ideas and get them out to show people, and this has in my mind what true art was all about..........or creativity I should say.

I can work for the job to earn me the money to stay in food and clothes, but this attitude I found left me wanting. It wasn't good enough to try and do stuff for fun in my own time, as this was not getting out to the world. It should have been that what I was possible of should have been getting out there to the world as a product for the company I worked for.

But real life forces unreasonable restraints and financial restrictions and also 'suits and ties', upon an artist bringing us all to the ground with a 'thud', and so this is why many movies and games and in today's music industry, the art is sacrificed for a quick buck !!!
Yep we all 'kill our darlings', but I can say I have and never will like it, though we all have to do it in the workplace to be able to keep to deadlines and be in employment.
I must say though, that I never liked it though, because the minute I would actually become unbothered by this, would be the day I'd lose my 'fire' to be bothered about getting to that 'higher' creative peak.

Anyway, this is a problem I feel with working in design, unless you are working with the stars of the CGI world or compannies who can afford to keep high standards of vision and creativity, most will find that many smaller compannies will not allow much freedom. Some may worry that they may never be given much freedom in the workplace to explore their imagination, and worst still, may be forever forced to 'knock out' budget style products or titles requiring the most basic artwork on the most basic technology !!!!

Ok we all pay our dues, but not everyone, will make it to Lucas Arts or Pixar, because let's face it, even if they knew everyone's ability out there and could psychically read everyone's minds searching the world for the best talents, they could still only employ only a certain number of vacancies !!!!!
Employment is all down to the experience you have and your determination and persistence (and luck) to get to where you want in the end, and it still does not guarantee you will get to where you deserve or want to get to........it helps if you have contacts though ! umm !

Anyway, what I am saying is , i really do burn up inside with the love for all the artforms I have suggested in my previous mailings !

The problem is the ease and time and restrictions imposed by society, compannies and technology etc..which can determine whether one or another is more viable or more enjoyable in the workplace !!!?

For example....I love music, 2d and 3d art, acting, comedy, writing, they are all pure art......but the problems arise from industries cashing in and distorting them for profits, and not just normal profits, but greedy constricting profits.

Look at the music industry.......it's so manufactured and so 'safe' nowadays that most groups are complete pap.
Here in the UK, most talented groups are shunned by the record industry in favour of talentless 'karaoke' singers voted for by the public on TV. Senseless nonsense but it sells. This also conditions little kids and a 'blind' public to become desensitised to the possibilities of true and amazing music....unless they break from it, but nevertheless it is damaging.
Mozart, John Lennon, and Frank Sinatra would certainly all agree whilst turning in their graves, God rest them !

There is plenty talent out there, but for the sake of a quick buck, many many people have their visions strangled.
Ok, not all music is being shunned, but once upon a time, big bucks were still made and creative freedom was the thing.
Even most movies suffer from either shallow plot or no plot and loads of action and CGI.
Ok the CGI may be great and the special effects awesome, but the director and script writers have failed their projects !
Games suffer the same disease...great art for the most part, great music, but the game play sucks many times.
This is to do with the 'suits and ties', which put rediculous deadlines and financial constraints on projects, so even if the artworks are still great despite 'killing your darlings', you can't have artistic genocide on your hands, therefore what can usually occur is a game which seems hurried and doesn't always work in the gameplay area.
But the project is a whole and the art in this case is combining all the disciplines directing them to a finished piece.

I must say that when I watch films like Lord Of The Rings, I am thankful that the director, and screenwriter, effects artists etc, and actors have all done an outstanding job, but then it is probably because they didn't do things as the rest of Hollywood has been doing lately.

My problem is that I can't know what it will be truly like for me in a particular discipline unless i experience it within that discipline in a career oriented environment.

Also great art should last and have a more meaningful purpose.
Film, animation literature and music do this.
In computer games, all these disciplines are combined in various ways, but these disciplines are there to serve the gameplay.
If the gameplay is bad or just another 'clone', it has let down the other disciplines which allow it to exist, I think.
Also because a game and its platform changes in technology rapidly, games we make now,(like those in the past), won't be sold in the future like movies and music are, unless remade or kept alive by fans of retro games.

My problem is that I love all the things I do equally......I love the freedom of music, the storytelling of literature, the storytelling of animation and film with visual ideas.....i love acting and comedy, playing a geat role and making people laugh.....

All are important and I would miss them all. But i can't be doing them all as I wouldn't be able to go for the push and go fulltime with one.
I know for a fact that my musical ability is prodigious and various music teachers have said i was remarkable as a kid. WEven now, but I went into design and now at the age of 30, who knows if it is too late for a career....I look young, but it's not the point.
Design I love too, and many ex collegues tell me to stick with it as I have a remarkable imagination.......but I know how industry can be and I don't like the idea of having to compromise etc, as i always feel unfulfilled despite still loving the work and doing what i have to. My comedy stuff is a rarer art, and makes people so happy.......but this isn't straightforward unless you are on tv, and this is another tricky business to get into...and acting is the same, but then theatre and the long and winding road up is one that needs attention to get somewhere in the end !
I suppose I would stick to one art if i knew it brought success more than another which could get me nowhere, but who knows the future......I suppose if i had a choice to stick to one art knowing it would bring me a successful career, I would go for comedy/acting & writing. Also music, but then if I knew I would be working on a movie or some big computer game, i would love that too !!! doh !

My friends say I should be a writer and director, as I know what I want to achieve and can get others to use their artistic disciplines and acting skills and draw them together to make my vision work.
It seems correct as if I have an idea or a story, i can get the artsts to make a set, get certain emotions and performance from actors, get a musical score composed in a way to suit my story , special effects etc for certain scenes, and in the end I have my story or idea visualised my way by directing each discipline together. But then how manyuy directors are out there, and how many have experience and are great , and how many actually get their movies out there in the cinemas !!!!?
I don't doubt myself, but i have two feet on the ground and know that probability has alot to do ith it, not just perseverance and talent and hard work.

argh............back to the cups of tea and biscuits as they do in the UK ! I will burn out if I don't focus, but I love all my disciplines, am getting old and don't have a job !!!!! help !


take it easy guys !

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