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View Full Version : Treasure Planet sinks Disney Studios


coboman
12-09-2002, 07:00 PM
Since I saw treasure Planet's trailer I knew it would be a bomb just like Titan A.E.
But enough to put Disney Studio out of bussiness?

Check it out:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=30542186

heavyness
12-09-2002, 11:04 PM
wow. it's kinda like seeing a McDonalds close, they've both been around for so long, it would be weird not seeing them. without Pixar, they would be hurting even more. i've never been a huge fan of disney movies but i can't dismiss there impact and charm. only time will tell...

dmonk
12-09-2002, 11:13 PM
Think of all those animators out and about looking for jobs.:scream:

roger
12-09-2002, 11:16 PM
I don't think TP is going to make Disney close their Animation Studio. They just aren't going to make a animation film for $140 mill again.
They still have 4 more films to finish. "Bears", "Home on the Range", "My Peoples" and their CG film "Chicken Little".
I did see TP and I LIKED it! I will agree the ads for it stunk and I think that's one of the reason's it did bad at the box-office.

visualboo
12-10-2002, 12:39 AM
I saw it and liked it.... nuff said.

RockinAkin
12-10-2002, 01:43 AM
Well, I dont think they'll be going out of business, just be producing smaller budjeted films... a shame really.

But Lilo and Stitch did surprisingly well, considering it went head to head with Minority Report.

I cant help but think this film would have done better if it have been released a month or two later... This december is simply too packet with huge movies for any project like this to get noticed.

I'm already too busy waiting for:

LOTR: The Two Towers
Gangs of New York
Catch Me If You Can

Tickets are 10 bucks in my theater now, and sometimes you just gotta pick the top few you want to see, and wait for the others on video.

Oh well,
-DivideByZero-

Ckerr812
12-10-2002, 01:53 AM
I see alot of people saying it was the marketing and bad ads for Tresure planet.....I mean ...that is the biggest excuse. Look at a movie called My Big Fat Greek Wedding , No advertising at all, it was just a good movie...and it's making over 200 million domestically.

Problem is, the movie (like titan A.E) is only directed towards the male audience....My girlfriend dosen't want to go see some sci fi thing like TP, or Titan A.E or Final Fantasy (which all bombed)... and I am sure most girls don't (that aren't into animation).... and as we all know..the girl almost always picks the movie :D

At least that's why Monsters inc, Lilo and stitch, ...and the others do so well..cause everyone can enjoy them...just not Sci fi nerds.

Shade01
12-10-2002, 02:28 AM
Disney has always been over excessive with their animated movies. I think you'll probably see a dip in production quality with more held frames and animation on 2's than before. Ultimately, if Disney's studio goes down it will be because they lost their identity after The Lion King. The last 7 or 8 movies have been searches for an identity as the animation quality and visual direction have varied wildly as they seek to find a style that strikes a note with todays moviegoer. Secondly, they need to stop adapating existing stories and create their own. Honestly, I have no idea why they don't borrow some people from Pixar to write them an original story. Lastly, they can get a lot more done for a lot less in less time with less employess using 3d for characters. Cel shading has gotten to a point where it can be indistinguishable from hand drawn art. they need to fly to Japan and see how they do it from a production standpoint, companies like production I.G. always seem to be able to turn out top quality animation at less than Disney cost.

Per-Anders
12-10-2002, 03:30 AM
disney as become good at being slick and repeating a formula in terms of characterisation.

that's in a way why lilo & stitch is good imo, not the standard disney character set. it could have been better still if they had been able to spend enough to get the animators to trully copy the live line and style of the original artwork, very calvin & hobbs i thought, very cute, and very cool. but i guess that's the budget and the disney slickeness{tm} showing through.

twilight
12-10-2002, 03:33 AM
I think people are after diferent kinds of movies... from what i saw of TP's ads it looks like the older disney movies, full of songs and love and flowers... *sigh*
Movies like Monsters Inc., Ice Age and Shrek have succeeded with lower budgets. Why? Maybe because they focus on the story, on the characters and in a modern sense of humour and not so much on the eye candy.
I know they're suited to diferent audiences... but spending 140m on a kid's movie???

valu
12-10-2002, 04:20 AM
I think Disney must to re-think the way of telling stories for a new generation of children, Who have more information ,more critic sence , and above all , have choices on yhe theaters.

Gilgamesh
12-10-2002, 05:55 AM
I think it would be sad if we lost Disney Animation. They're the ones who started it all. Granted, it's a different company now, but they are still being innovative as far as animation goes. I think the various style changes on their features is part of that, it's great that they incorporate that into their storytelling. Now if only they could get the storytelling part figured out.....
Anyway, I hope they keep making movies. Unfortunately a bomb like this might just lead them to stick with a "safer" style and story.
Either way, I think if this continues, the final blow is going to be when they lose Pixar. I hope they don't sign another contract, though. I am really looking forward to what Pixar will come up with once they are outside the veil of Disney.

Gentle Fury
12-10-2002, 06:11 AM
74 million dollar loss!!!

thats bad!

time to cut the staff again.........so sad!!!

Diz better start thinking of new ways to make movies (again) cuz when the pixar money cow is gone they are gonna be suffering!!!

They really need to learn (and i thought they had) that all the flash and sfx DONT MATTER!!!! the damn thing is already animated!!! you dont have to have big fx! First and formost you HAVE TO HAVE A STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and if its a story noone has heard a billion times thats even better!!!

Then you have to advertise it to show, yes we have a story here!

I still havent gotten to see Treasure Planet, from what ive heard its really good! Now the problem is......for one they shot themselves in the foot by making it a futuristic version of treasure island.....it could be the best movie ever made and the fact that they made a futuristic treasure island is going to turn off countless people!!!!

Treasure Island was a story people loved as children.......this was a place that you became a pirate and it was an adventure from most peoples youth!!

Now taking that and setting it in the future with spaceships and cyborgs!!! you just crapped on a lot of peoples memories.

Bad move diz!

Now an example of where things went right.

Emperors New Groove!!!!! What made this movie great......well a few things. One, originality! The story was actually made up, not previously written!!!! Now the title sux, i give it that, and i wasnt even going to see it on that merit alone, but i heard it was great....and i LOVED IT!!! I got the dvd and i love to watch it while i work!

Lilo and Stitch! Another great one!!!! It was perfect in every way!! Excellant story, wonderful characters.....incredible animation (it even had a different feel to it.....almost like bluth.....space ace) and it wasnt all fluffy, stitch really had some attitude!

They really need to make more movies like these!!! They are better, more involved, based on the characters and not the eye candy......and they are a hell of a lot less expensive to make!!!!!

Diz has annoyed me as much as they have everyone else.......making sequels to pinnochio and jungle book....and just making pocahantas......but ive seen some real potential!!!! to let that potential dwindle away would be sad....but they cant be taking 100 million dollar losses.......so they better start rethinking (or going back to the new thought they had) strategys and get back to making good movies!!!!!

hate to see ya go......but pixar is here to stay!!!

kfc
12-10-2002, 06:32 AM
as i remember a story i heard from a friend that disney's copyright on micky mouse and donald duck is going to expire by next year. they are having trouble on expanding it's copyright period.
it might be another blow for disney.
That's why we have lilo and stitch this year. They even use stitch as their logo in some of the promo.

if all of this really happens, we might going to have trouble too becuase all of the big boys from disney going to leave disney and compete with us in the open market.
Gosh!

:surprised

playmesumch00ns
12-10-2002, 10:16 AM
As it mentioned in the article, Disney lost their way after Lion King, i.m.o. the best film they ever made. Since then, well, if you ignore the Pixar films it's been a pile of crap (still got to see The Emperor's New Groove, thanks Fury).

I found Lilo & Stitch incredibly shallow after Monsters Inc. and Toy Story, especially Stitch, whose character arc lasted all of 3 seconds. It was beautifully drawn, but that's not enough to make a movie (well, if you're going to show it to people other than animators anyway).

Treasure Planet hasn't been released here yet, but there is no way I'm going to see it. What is the obession with sci-fi now? I mean Atlantis was absolute crap, with characters of no interest whatsoever.

What made Lion King great was great songs, a great script, strong characters and good performances by the leads (ditto the stage show, saw it with my girlfriend in London in February and it is fantastic). In short it was a good film. Same for everything Pixar have done. With Atlantis and Lilo & Stitch, you'd struggle to say "well, it's ok for a cartoon".

While Disney do have to change with the times, they must also stay true to that which people love, that which sold millions of Ariel and Simba toys, and that which started to disappear when they made The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

coboman
12-10-2002, 04:54 PM
Is it really that difficult to make a good story?
I think Disney has lost its way several times, specially when Walt passed away. In my childhood Disney made films like The Black Couldron, The Fox and the Dog (I don't really know the title in english), and other forgettable crap.

It was with the little mairmaid that Disney was back in bussiness, making FANTASY, not REAL stories. That is where animation excels: making things that could not possibly be filmed with live action.

In the book "The illusion of life", Disney animators say that you should never do a plot that can be filmed with live action. There you have the great Disney movies: The Jungle Book, Dumbo, Pinochio, The Lion King, The little Mairmaid, etc. In the part of what not only could, but SHOULD have been life action : Pocahontas, The Hunchback, Atlantis and, of course, Treasure Planet. All bombs.

John Lasseter understands this, and Pixar has always thought first "What can be done in this medium that couldn't be done any other way, or it wouldn't look as good". Things in early renderman renders look like plastic. OK, let's make toys. Now we can make hair. OK, let's make hairy monsters.

Disney forgot the limitations and strenghts of the medium. More and more I think that The Lion King was just a fluke.

darkmonth
12-10-2002, 05:10 PM
Michael Eisener

There you go. The reason for Disney's downfall. Up until he got his grubby little hands on it, the studio create masterpeices of animated features.

And that comment about cel shading being indistinguishable from hand drawn? I think not. I haven't seen a cel shader recreate anything with as much artistry as Simba and Mufasa in the Lion King. No way. It will be many many many years if ever, that that is achieved.

Case closed on that one, and the blind idiots who think computers are capable of any artistic wizardry, please shut up, its blind and stupid to put opinions like that across when they can't possibly be based on fact!

Well, I hope Disney does get back up there becuase as a classically trained animator, I feel dissapointed in what has happened. I will say this though, the public are fickle and they change thier minds. Compters are being used now, sure, but they are new. And one day, maybe soon, classical animation will be in demand again.

All the best people!

Dave

ryders
12-10-2002, 05:14 PM
from the Japanese animation "Kimba the White Lion"

Check it out... (http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm)

A good friend of mine who used to watch this when she was growing up, and was furious when she saw the "Lion King".

darkmonth
12-10-2002, 05:19 PM
I know about these comparisons and to tell you the truth, Disney did 10 times a better job! Kimba is naff and Lion King kicks ass! Awww, check out the comparison image of Kimba and Simba... Kimbas an ugly runt and Simba is sooooo cute! lol...

Dave

DotPainter
12-10-2002, 05:39 PM
I think that the problem with Disney nowadays is that they don't own the animated feature genre anymore. Back in the old days, Disney was the only player in the major animated feature category, which they helped define. With their heavy handed tactics, they were able to pretty much make full length animated features the domain of children's fantasy. That, their virtual monopoly on full length animated films and tactics like not releasing films to video, guaranteed a large audience for their features in the past. Times have changed though. There are a lot more options on video and cable for kids than going to see the latest disney cuddlefest at the local theater. Also tastes have changed. With the arrival of CG features and anime, no one no longer sees animation as just for kids. Therefore, Disney now has to compete and like others have said, they are searching for direction in this new market.

I also grew up watching Kimba, and I wouln't be surprised if it too was "borrowed" from. As far as I know, there are 3 recent Disney films that have been said to be pirated from somewhere else: The Lion King from "Kimba the White Lion", Monsters Inc from artwork by a 60's artist and Atlantis from "Secret of Blue Water". All the more indication that they are struggling to find their niche in a crowded market.

MCronin
12-10-2002, 05:40 PM
I agree, coboman.

Really, if you think about it, it seems like all American animation went south at all studios after about 1960 or so and started picking up again in the early 90's. You could probably blame it all on television and the huge culture shift during the 60's. Television killed serials and shorts in theaters, and birthed these hack studios that pumped out Saturday morning crap at 6 frames per second to sell toys. Also, If you watch MGM and Warner Brothers cartoons chronologically, you can actually see this culture shift. The best stuff was done in the 40's and early 50's, then all of the sudden in the 60's there's this wierd shift to abstract art and concepts, and jazzy soundtracks, and the violence is muted.

Looking at the filmographies of some of these great animation director's on imdb, it's kind of sad. If you look at the dates it's almost like the great golden age of US animation died with Fred Quimby in 1965.

My Fault
12-10-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by ryders
from the Japanese animation "Kimba the White Lion"

Check it out... (http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm)

A good friend of mine who used to watch this when she was growing up, and was furious when she saw the "Lion King".

They BOTH borrowed from Hamlet's Shakespeare. Maybe if your friend was a little better read she wouldn't have been so furious.

I know when I first saw Kimba I thought... "cool, love that they borrowed from Shakespeare." When I saw "The Lion King" I thought the same thing.

Dominique
12-10-2002, 10:03 PM
Saw the trailer of IRON GIANT, went with my boy to see it,
Saw the trailer of Monsters, we went,
Tarzan, we went,
Shrek, we went
Ice Age, we went
Spirited Away, we went
Chicken Run, we went (and all I Saw, bought the DVD!)

Lilo, nope,
The Emperor, nope
The Spirit, nope
Treasure Planet, nope

and then there was Eldorado, Titan, Fantasia2000, Atlantis; all these dissapointed me very badly,

Disney might come back, just that they should really restructure the company, you can't have 140million in a film and not having more interesting images than Monsters or Spirited Away, there is something wrong at their place, Fantasia2000 might be the clue. (Roy ain't Walt)

Hows the Secret Lab doing, I was supposed to work over there 5 years ago!! Wouldn' t they start testing MAX over-there??

And DreamWorks, are they doing better?? Luckily they got PDI and AARDMAN

My Fault
12-10-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Dominique
Lilo, nope,

You haven't seen Lilo and Stitch??!!?? Go, go now! :p

Gentle Fury
12-10-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Dominique
Saw the trailer of IRON GIANT, went with my boy to see it,
Saw the trailer of Monsters, we went,
Tarzan, we went,
Shrek, we went
Ice Age, we went
Spirited Away, we went
Chicken Run, we went (and all I Saw, bought the DVD!)

Lilo, nope,
The Emperor, nope
The Spirit, nope
Treasure Planet, nope

and then there was Eldorado, Titan, Fantasia2000, Atlantis; all these dissapointed me very badly,

Disney might come back, just that they should really restructure the company, you can't have 140million in a film and not having more interesting images than Monsters or Spirited Away, there is something wrong at their place, Fantasia2000 might be the clue. (Roy ain't Walt)

Hows the Secret Lab doing, I was supposed to work over there 5 years ago!! Wouldn' t they start testing MAX over-there??

And DreamWorks, are they doing better?? Luckily they got PDI and AARDMAN


huh?????? you realize all animated films are NOT disney right????? lets look at your list

IRON GIANT - Fox

Monsters Inc - Pixar (yes the rights are owned by diz, but its pixar)

Tarzan - Diz

Shrek - Dreamworks

Ice Age - Blue Sky

Spirited Away - Ghibli

Chicken Run - Aardmon

Lilo And Stitch - Diz

The Emperors New Groove - Diz

Spirit : Stallion of the Cimeron - Fox

Treasure Planet - Diz

Road to Eldorado - Fox

Titan AE - Fox

Fantasia 2000 - Diz

Atlantis - Diz

so, 7 out of the 15 you mentioned (less then half) were disney. So how is this a good way of telling if they have a chance??

ambient-whisper
12-10-2002, 10:45 PM
someone told me that the spirit was also very good. even though it had a very bad trailer.

MCronin
12-10-2002, 11:26 PM
Iron Giant is Warner Brothers, and Spirit : Stallion of the Cimeron and Road to Eldorado are both Dreamworks, actually.

coboman
12-10-2002, 11:56 PM
Spirit is a very boring picture. Granted, it is not Disney, but looks like it.
It has the same flaws the last Disney pictures have. There is no clear audience for this kind of movie (like, I think, is the case of Treasure Planet).

Kids go and they get bored for the lack of cute, funny characters. The psychological and filosofical challenges of the story are too deep for kids and too shallow for adults.

The audience is the teenagers!!! Ha, ha, ha. Did the guys at Diz really think that today's teenagers would be interested in Treasure Planet? C'mon! Today's teenager are more into American Pie/Crazy about Mary kind of comedy, and more into Scream/I know What You Did Last Summer kind of thrill.

To make the gazillions of dollars necessary to get their investment of 140 million dollars back they should have a very broad and delimited audience: families.

A movie where mom, dad and the kids can have fun together. Pixar (again) understands this perfectly. That is why even A Bugs Life, which was not a blockbuster, still returned their investment with a nice profit.

It is incredible that Walt knew this 60 years ago, the new CGI guys have already learnt it (including PDI and Blue Sky), and the new guys at Disney keep forgetting it.

Celshader
12-10-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by darkmonth
I haven't seen a cel shader recreate anything with as much artistry as Simba and Mufasa in the Lion King. No way. It will be many many many years if ever, that that is achieved.


I dunno...I thought the Giant in Iron Giant had real heart and soul. He looked pretty neat-o, too.

fig
12-13-2002, 02:21 AM
i'm just waiting for the brad bird-directed pixar film, its in the works :D

i heard ed catmull of pixar speak a few years ago and he stressed that no matter what their animators can do and no matter what their programmers can do the story has to be the primary thing driving the film, and if the art or technology doesn't work with that then it doesn't go in. weird, focusing on storytelling in film and being successful... :rolleyes:

chris

sanhueza
12-13-2002, 05:39 AM
They BOTH borrowed from Hamlet's Shakespeare. Maybe if your friend was a little better read she wouldn't have been so furious.
And Hamlet borrowed from ancient Egyptian mythology. The concept is a very old one in human story-telling: Evil brother murders the King to usurp his throne, then the King's son comes back to take vengeance on his evil uncle. It is a very good story concept, which is one of the reasons why both Hamlet and The Lion King are so highly regarded.

I feel sympathetic towards Disney's situation right now, although mostly out of nostalgia rather than for what the company is now. I do hope they bounce back and find the direction which they seem to have lost. I still think that there is so much more they can do to entertain and stimulate the imaginations of children and families, as they have done for so many years.

But, like so many people have pointed out here, it seems like they've lost their direction in the films they've done after "The Lion King." Most have been decent at best, truly boring at worste, with the exception of "Mulan", which was really well done even though it didn't get the attention it deserved. I have not yet seen "Milo & Stitch" or "Treasure Planet", but I plan to because I have heard from friends that both were very good. So maybe Disney is already bouncing back in terms of quality, even if they're not picking their subject matter to fit their audience.

I'm surprised to hear several people bashing sci-fi themes here on a CG forum, but I guess it's not a medium that appeals to everyone. I thought "Titan A.E." was a truly fantastic movie. Visually it was so unique and impressive, and I really liked the story and characters. The movie was appealing to me because I am an artist and because I am a sci-fi fan. When my girlfriend watched it with me, however, she wasn't very interested in it (other than the fact that she kept telling me that the captain character looked like me :cool: ) So, if you're trying to appeal to a very broad family audience to recoop a $140 million budget, perhaps sci-fi is not the way to go. I think "Star Wars" and "The Lord of the Rings" are so big because of the pre-existing mystique surrounding them rather than for the subject matter. Oh, and they're not cartoons... :)

I guess we just have to wait and see what happens. I'm sure Disney can continue to dish out quality entertainment, but they'll never again be as all-dominating as they once were.

- Me

www.sanhueza.com

red_oddity
12-13-2002, 11:30 AM
Actually it's a combination of a lot of factors:

Disney's public grew up, Disney unfortunatly not.
The animations that where made with a lot of love where marketed badly (i didn't go see Emperors New Groove since everyone said it was crap, i later found out by watching myself (and a couple of animators) that it actually was one of the best animated Disneys from the last 10 years...
I did go see Atlantis in the theatre since everyone loved it and said it was the best Disney in years (i went with the same animators, after half an hour of staring at the screen thinking there probably was something wrong with me, then we looked at each other in horror (we all thought the same thing, 'Is this film really such a heap of shite i'm thinking it is?'), later on we all got really pissed out of the theatre and went to watch Emperor at a friend that same night to wash away the bitter taste that horrible pile of steaming cow dung left behind)

Disney rips toomuch other animations without giving credit, not that this is all really disneys fault, since people probably think only Disney makes good animations...Do they miss out, Japan has a very rich animation history, go look over there (people still think japanese animations are called Manga and contain nothing but violence and sex..fools...)

Disney is out for just one thing:profit, yes it's a company so it need to earn money to get everyone going, BUT, they want money no matter what (just look at the needless crappy seqals the've been doing lately...please...people just can't tell the difference anymore between a good Disney and a hopeless waste of money sequel, so why go at all to a Disney anyway...)

Anyway, lunch is ready, i'm leaving it at this...
I just want to say, Disney hasn't been the Disney we all knew anymore for a long time, i can't say i feel sorry for the studio anyway, i just feel sorry for all those people losing their jobs for some bunch of hotshots greed.

The Magic Pen
12-13-2002, 09:58 PM
Lets all hope that movie does not sink Disney Animation . Outside of not being able to see Disney movies that's gonna be 1400 artists out of a job and where do you think they are all going to go ?? That's right film and games ..think it's hard to get a job now :D :thumbsdow

windarr
12-15-2002, 10:54 AM
You know I can't really talk because I haven't seen Treasure Planet yet (however i do want to), but it strikes me that what was their failing point has nothing to do with quality, or advertising. I believe that their timing was just really bad. I mean look at what their competition was.....HARRY POTTER. You can't and really shouldn't compete with that right now, it's just way too popular. I think Disney was a little arrogant releasing it so close to when Harry Potter 2 came out, and add to that the new Bond flick, and a couple other heavily hyped movies, and you have a making for disaster.

My 2 cents.

Dominique
12-15-2002, 04:25 PM
Fresh blood!!! is what they need, and let them create!!!

And big bosses should stop thinking they're the artists, (except if you're called Nick Park or Chris Wedge or John Lasseter or Miyazaki, but none of these are at Disney),
Dom

JohnD
12-15-2002, 10:59 PM
I agree with Sanhueza about Titan A.E. I loved it. Don Bluth and Gary Goldman put out some great flics ( Secret of NIMH being thier masterpiece...IMHO ). It's unfortunate that their movies have never really been blockbusters, but they keep cranking them out. And who can forget the arcade games "Dragon's Lair" and "Space Ace." I can't even imagine how many quarters I dropped into those machines when I was a kid. Ah the memories.

Gentle Fury
12-15-2002, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by JohnD
I agree with Sanhueza about Titan A.E. I loved it. Don Bluth and Gary Goldman put out some great flics ( Secret of NIMH being thier masterpiece...IMHO ). It's unfortunate that their movies have never really been blockbusters, but they keep cranking them out. And who can forget the arcade games "Dragon's Lair" and "Space Ace." I can't even imagine how many quarters I dropped into those machines when I was a kid. Ah the memories.

Hey if you get the new Dragons Lair 3D (which by the way is an absolute masterpiece in its own rank) it has a making of video on there.......and at the end Bluth says that they are in pre-pro for a feature length Dragons Lair MOVIE!!!!!!!!! WOOHOO!!!! Since its bluth i would assume its to be an animated feature (live action would NOT work) I CANT WAIT!!!! they are actually going to be bringing Dirk and Daphne to the big screen!!!!!!!!!!

That is going to be the animated film of the year in my book!!!

Kananga
12-15-2002, 11:20 PM
Ive never seen an animated movie I didn't like:cool:

With the possible exception of Pochahontas:annoyed:

JohnD
12-16-2002, 12:04 AM
Hey if you get the new Dragons Lair 3D (which by the way is an absolute masterpiece in its own rank) it has a making of video on there.......and at the end Bluth says that they are in pre-pro for a feature length Dragons Lair MOVIE!!!!!!!!! WOOHOO!!!! Since its bluth i would assume its to be an animated feature (live action would NOT work) I CANT WAIT!!!! they are actually going to be bringing Dirk and Daphne to the big screen!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot wait for that movie. I haven't picked up the 3d Drago's Lair yet, but I have seen screen shots and it looks just as awesome as when the first one came out. Hope Santa brings it:bounce:

Any news on when the movie is suppose to be released?

Pentagramma
12-16-2002, 12:47 AM
Anybody watched a Jim Henson TV special, of many years ago (maybe ´86, or ´87), called "Christmas Toy"?

It was about a bunch of toys (muppets and animatronics) who, in Christmas, get really worried about the new toys the child who owns them will get. It had a space toy on it (a doll called "Meteora"), the toys only moved when there were no people around, etc. The central point of the story was the friendship between two of the toys .

I´m not saying Pixar "borrowed" anything of it - probably, it´s only a coincidence. And, obviously, Pixar IS the best .

But my point is, maybe there are no more new stories to tell. Maybe, the secret is in how you tell it... that could explain why some Disney films work, and others... well..

Anyway, TP will be released next week around here, and I really want to watch it, even with all the bad business.

P.S.: Oh, and I just remembered another one: "Little Monsters", with Fred Savage. About monsters from another dimension, who enter our own dimension trough closet doors, to scare children.

Indavisual
12-16-2002, 02:04 AM
I havent seen TP myself but my opinion about animated films in general these days is... Its kinda like when movies changed from no soun d to sound, there were crappy movies because they havent quite got the hang of it yet. I believe we are in a trial and error stage of animated films. Some do well some dont and we are learning what works. The local movie reviewer said TP's 3d animation and cel animation didnt seem to fit, like they are two different worlds. This reviewer gave TP a bad review and I think most of the time they are retarded and dont like any movies inless they of a certain genre, whatever genre floats that reviewers boat. Reviews have a big impact on how well films do too. My girlfriend could want to see something more than anything and if the review stinks she wont want to go anymore. Ive seen many films with the worst reviews and turn out to be GREAT films. Ok sorry I think I strayed away from my point so Im just gonna end it here.

Jeremy

red_oddity
12-16-2002, 11:02 AM
Magic Pen,

i wouldn't worry too much about 1400 people being fired (seen from a finding work stance), how much of these people do you think are really good animators that will function independently in another company.
Not much i think, a lot of these people have been drilled by Disney to do just one thing (inking, or coloring or whatnot) and they probably only work in the style pushed on them by Disney.
I could be wrong though, but this is how it works in most large studios, there's a really small percentage that's really really good.

Correct me on this one though should i be completely wrong.

Dominique
12-16-2002, 11:58 AM
You're right but...

this still means 1400 people laid-off,

and this becomes a habbit in our society,
Our company closed a year ago, 450 people worldwide laid-off,
I'm lucky, always had work but I feel that I have to invest myself 3x more than 5 years ago for lesser pay!!
Wages going down for more work asked, and life ain't cheaper,
Thanks to the Euro, prices from supermarket to the local drugstores went up with 16%, this is reality and ain't said by the extremely well paid Euro-parlement, or by the newspapers!!

the half of those 450 people, having family and house are currently on the edge of poverty!! and they do have a strong social security here in France!!
(lot's of my friends are in trouble and I'm trying to help them out as much as I can, just don't make a habbit of dropping poor friends, it ain't a question of loosers anymore, these are talented and great people!)

Profit Profit is the goal, entertaining becomes secondary,
Things are going so quickly today, 95% just can't follow,
This world-economy is killing lot's of jobs, and this is just the beginning,
look at what happened in Argentina, could you ever imagine this in the US!!
and watch out for China and India taking tomorrow your job!!

Dominique,

coboman
12-16-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Pentagramma
But my point is, maybe there are no more new stories to tell. Maybe, the secret is in how you tell it... that could explain why some Disney films work, and others... well..

As Joseph Campbell explained, there is only ONE true story: the Hero's Journey. Most of the blockbuster movies are about exactly the same, a hero that receives a call to adventure out of the world he knows to find forces of good and evil. The very core of the story is irrelevant (because it is always the same), it is the situation, characters and the way the story developes which appeal to us.

In regards to Sci Fi in animated movies, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there has EVER been a massively succesful animated movie that is sci-fi. most of succesful animated movies deal with animals or fantasty characters.

Somehow sci-fi is much better of with life action and special fx. I think it is because animated machines don't look cool, they look cheese.

An example is Silver the Cyborg in Treasure Planet (Yes, I have seen TP and did NOT like it). His arm is the coolest of machines, in a life action movie those gadgets would have been must fun to watch. Powerful and scary.
In the animated movie, they just look bad.

red_oddity
12-16-2002, 06:35 PM
Ah, yes..the euro...that was a great move...i have never gone through my savings so fast...right now a can't even afford a home of my own (i'm renting a room at a friends place, can you believe that? i'm supposed to make money, so i can pay of the debts i got thanks to that completely friggin' waste of money education i got (it's the HKU in Holland should you ever wonder to go there as a student, DON'T, they know jack about the industry and rip you off))

Anyway, i stopped worrying some time ago...

We have a saying here in Holland it goes something like this :
'Van een kale kip valt niks te plukken'

roughly translated it would be :
'You can't pluck a bald chicken'

As for all those people getting laid off, i think the entire economy is in a bit of dip, but it probably will settle again.


Worst thing our industry has to face now is the fact that companies don't want to spend any money anymore on anything (especially in the media industry), hence all these BigBrother/Survivor/Reallife soap crap programs.

The biggest problem emerging from this is, is the fact that the expectations of the viewers are becoming so low as well (people get accustomed to this low budget crap).

Another problem added to this is the whole bunch of IT/Flash/HTML guys that emerged a couple of years ago (read:media prospectors, the people that want to do as little as possible and want to make as much money as possible), they can't do jack, but they know some Flash programs and thus they are creating leader and bumpers for tv now, why? Because they're CHEAP, not because they're any good.
(These are the people that place two keyframes and call them selves animators for it :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed: )

Ahwell, i'm off, it's been fun today, i'm gonna eat and sleep (i barely have time for myself anymore...i'm not getting paid enough for this...)

Celshader
12-17-2002, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by coboman
Somehow sci-fi is much better of with life action and special fx. I think it is because animated machines don't look cool, they look cheese.

Aw, c'mon. What about Giant in Iron Giant or the cyborgs and armor in Spriggan..? Or the motorcycle fights in Akira or the robot-driven city in Metropolis..?

I encourage you to give the cel look more of a chance when it comes to machine animations. :)

Pedro
12-17-2002, 09:31 PM
"Aw, c'mon. What about Giant in Iron Giant or the cyborgs and armor in Spriggan..? Or the motorcycle fights in Akira or the robot-driven city in Metropolis..?"

What about them? They were total failures, box-office wise. (I don't know about Akira, maybe in Japan it was a hit).

And the city in Metropolis looked pretty crappy to me. Same problem, like they couldn't decide how to mix the 2d and 3d. And the movie is pretty boring too... that's personal opinion of course.

Flog
12-17-2002, 10:14 PM
How the heck did they spend 140 million dollars on that movie????
I mean come on, its just an animated movie, and special fx are cheaper than they used to be, how in the world did they spend so much??

Star Wars cost that much, but come on, animation. 140 million dollars? Shoot I could get a movie made for 1 million in 3d, shoot less than that, and make it just as good looking. Heck some of you guys are good and can do it on your own home system. If they spent 140 million on that movie then someone needs to shoot the guy in charge of allowing these to go through and focus on smaller budget films with more soul in them.

xzevlin
12-17-2002, 10:50 PM
I think alot of money was spent on integrating John Silver's CG limbs onto the hand drawn character. Also some of those space port scenes must have been hell to render.

For that price though, they could've produced a few good quality films by up and coming animation directors, instead of one bloated mess. You'd think that with $140 million, they'd spend some on a good writer ;)

coboman
12-17-2002, 11:34 PM
Sorry about the comment of the cheese machines. I didn't mean that they were poorly executed, just that they don't appeal to a very broad audience (including me). And when you have to make 140 million just to break even, a broad audience is what you need.

Anyway, this topic reminds me of a couple of books I just read. One is the art of Toy Story (don't remember the exact title), and the other one is the art of Final Fantasy.

As you know, Toy Story went to make hundreds of millions and Final Fantasy flopped and sunk it's animation studio.

Tha MAJOR difference between these books is the amount of times the word "story" is in the text. In the Toy Story book, the word "story" appears about ten time every 5 pages. Not because that word is in the title, but because all the explanations about the technology, the renders, the textures, the voices, etc.etc. always go with the explanation of how it enhanced the story.

In the Final Fantasy book the word "story" is nowhere to be found. Everything is about the poligons, designs, renders, break through technology and talent of the artists.

I wonder if the mechanical arm of Silver enhanced in any way his character, or made any contribution to the story. I think it was only intended as eye candy, and as such, it becomes boring and obstrusive in the first 5 seconds of its presence on screen.

I wonder how many times a book about Treasure Planet would mention the word "story". My guess is, not too many.

Nicodemus
12-18-2002, 01:35 AM
I really hope that Disney does not stop making animation. I just hope they take a long look at their methods and re-think things. From a business stand point they are making some great decisions. Making sequals to some of their best movies may irritate some purists but takes full advantage of the lucrative home video market.

As for their feature film releases......I have to agree with alot of the statements made already. They need to spend more time on developing stories or at least do a better job of adapting established stories. What kills me is that they have a great pedigree and money out the ass to pour into making great movies.

eliseu gouveia
12-18-2002, 04:19 AM
Would it have been really that hard for Disney´s top suits to come down of their all-mighty pedestal and write at the bottom of Lion King: "A Tribute to Tezuka"?

Sure Lion King looks way better than Kimba, 30 years have passed after all; I´d be worried if it didn´t.

But when you check the frame by frame comparison and you can objectivelly verify that the creators/animators/writers were drawing inspiration DIRECTLY from that old animé relique, why persist on the lie?

Suits; they´re all the same!:shame:

keithlango
12-18-2002, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Flog
How the heck did they spend 140 million dollars on that movie????
I mean come on, its just an animated movie, and special fx are cheaper than they used to be, how in the world did they spend so much??

5 years in production. think about it.... 5 years. I work with a man who was one of the senior production designers on TP. (he designed the crescent moon space port among other things). He started with our company in spring of 1999. I remember him showing me his concept drawings back then, and those were a year old already. You put that many people on a single project for that long and you're gonna pay through the nose for it.

For what it's worth, I believe the days of the $100+million animated feature are numbered. Heck, even what Disney calls a "low budget" feature like Lilo that cost $80mil will be a teetering relic. Sure, there will be more of these big money flicks made by the biggest names right now. But financially, the business has a tough time supporting that kind of risk. Steve Jobs recently told the staff at Pixar (to paraphrase)"We have room to make one bad film. We make two and we're in trouble." That from a CEO of a company that has zero debt and nearly $200mil cash in the bank. The stakes are so high in theatrical films right now that the gravity of economic realities will begin to crush the mega-budget animated film.

-k

Tiburon3D
12-18-2002, 07:57 PM
Thanks Keith for that insight.

I am personally surprised that the movie did so poorly. I really enjoyed it. Of course I'm a big fan of Robert Louis Stevenon's book Treasure Island, and I love Sci-Fi, so that might explain that. Sure I had some problems with it, for example the robot voiced by Martin Short was kind of annoying. And the end sequence was pretty weak, but I still liked it a lot.


Anyway I think it was a great improvement over Atlantis and I would have ranked it equally with Lilo&Stich.

That's my two cents.

Jon

googlo
12-19-2002, 03:50 AM
I think Disney has been failing because their movies have become boring. It's the same stuff over and over again and the animation style keeps fluctuating and changing. I think after Beauty and Beast and Lion King disney's cartoon movies just got too boring and 'same old thing' kind of stuff (except for new kids that are born, but I don't think that is their main target anyway)

Celshader
12-19-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Pedro
"Aw, c'mon. What about Giant in Iron Giant or the cyborgs and armor in Spriggan..? Or the motorcycle fights in Akira or the robot-driven city in Metropolis..?"

What about them? They were total failures, box-office wise. (I don't know about Akira, maybe in Japan it was a hit).

And the city in Metropolis looked pretty crappy to me. Same problem, like they couldn't decide how to mix the 2d and 3d. And the movie is pretty boring too... that's personal opinion of course.

Whether or not they succeeded at the box office did not matter; I gave those films as examples of cel-animated machinery that didn't look "cheesy." But, since the subject's been mentioned...

According to IMDB, Akira made back its cost six times over at the box office alone. It paved the way for anime here in the States, and as far as I know is still considered an animated classic. Its animation holds up even today, IMO.

Iron Giant tanked at the box office because Warner Bros. failed to advertise it, not because of anything wrong with the film itself. It swept the Annie Awards that year and has since found an enthusiastic audience on home video. Pixar also offered its director, Brad Bird, a chance to direct a film at Pixar:
http://www.pixar.com/companyinfo/press/2000/pr00-05-04a.html

As for Metropolis...I think it's a beautiful film, myself, but I'll admit that I heard mixed opinions from friends. Some loved it, some didn't like it. I liked its retro robot designs, though, so I figured I'd toss it in as an example of cel-animated machinery that didn't look cheesy.

Flog
12-20-2002, 09:14 PM
As it mentioned in the article, Disney lost their way after Lion King, i.m.o. the best film they ever made. Since then, well, if you ignore the Pixar films it's been a pile of crap (still got to see The Emperor's New Groove, thanks Fury).

LIon king was good cause they blatantly stole the idea from a Japanese cartoon named KIMBA The White Lion. So don't put Lion King as there best movie ever, they stole it. STraight up.

The only good idea was someone elses idea. Disney is an evil corporation.

Lilo and Stitch, Emperors New Groove were good ideas. I'm hoping not to see something or someone come forward that Disney sold their idea. That would be sad.

Here is a few articles that show the comparison and how Disney Stole the idea for the Lion King

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/kimbawlion/rant2.htm

http://www.50yearsofkimba.com/simbakimba.htm

ryguy
12-23-2002, 05:33 AM
Disney didn't steal anything. They used the same father/son/evil uncle/ "fight over the monarchy" story that has been told through out the years of ancient Egyptian folk tales.

Frankly, Disney just did a better job of this. The characters actually came off of the screen. Come on, Mufasa's death scene? Incredible. Everytime I've seen The Lion King, I think it won't happen but it always does. Disney just has a way with their classics.

Kimba reminds me of the old Filmation He-Man: MOTU series but with a touch of My Little Pony.

The same goes for Aladdin. There are probably hundreds of NON disney Aladdin cartoons and books out there. So now when Disney decides animate Aladdin and makes their buck, a handful of people get pissy and waste bandwidth creating anti-disney sites.... go figure. :p

Boo-hoo.

~Ryan

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