Bad Art?

[deaderthanred]

simple: because you have been socially conditioned to associate "ugly" with evil (not all beautiful things are good, and not all ugly things are evil), and the difference between "ugly" and "beautiful" is also a social conditioning.

if a child was raised to see beauty in extraordinary creatures, then such creatures that are beautiful to that child will appear to be "ugly" to you. if you cannot imagine how "ugly" creatures can be beautiful, then your imagination is obviously limited. there is much beauty in the anatomy and structure of most creatures, real or fictional.

before i start to sound like a textbook, i'll just stop here and say: i mostly create stuff in the horror genre, and i also happen to have a soft spot for puppies :p

[andrewtl]

before i start to sound like a textbook, i'll just stop here and say: i mostly create stuff in the horror genre, and i also happen to have a soft spot for puppies :p

Ah but who doesn't? :D

On this issue I'd say that everyone has an idea of what is ugly and what is beautiful and everyone has some deep rooted fear somewhere. If you can draw on what scares the heck out of you then you can pretty much create evil looking stuff :p

[ashakarc]

Well, I won't comment on "bad art" and "good and evil", since you are dealing here with lingual association that is very loose and absurd.

But, on the point of protecting our children, I would say we'd better protect them from believing what they can't see as "good", than seeing what you believe as "evil"

[Matellis]

I have had people think i was evil because of some of the things I draw , but I dont think they are evil at all , when you start playing around with new shapes etc with characters many people think that your making something evil or ugly. But in all honestly I have no evil thoughts at all , im a very pleasent person. It is fustrating that a lot of people I know think im crazy or disturbed because i draw so called demons all day.

But one thing that could be evil in my opinion is when someone drawing knives going throw skulls and people heads chopped off all day.(with out any purpose)

[Ahmattu]

if you cannot imagine how "ugly" creatures can be beautiful, then your imagination is obviously limited. there is much beauty in the anatomy and structure of most creatures, real or fictional.

thanks for attacking me deaderthanred

do you mean we have to let kids grow up with vampire movies, and teach them how to look at the beauty of the anatomy!!!,


I know what you mean about the beatuy of the anatomy, its not beauty, its creative, artistic, yes I agree.

but we only can understand that, and obviously kids will not understand, you can't tell kids: look at this monster he's so beautiful,

the ugly is ugly, and the beautiful is beatiful, and rarely you find demons and vampires doing good things, it won't make any sense, so they are "evil", so its just the artist enjoies going deep into evil.



I would say we'd better protect them from believing what they can't see as "good", than seeing what you believe as "evil".
this is something else ashakarc, after all people around the world have the same opinion about what is good and what is bad.

[deaderthanred]

thanks for attacking me deaderthanred

do you mean we have to let kids grow up with vampire movies, and teach them how to look at the beauty of the anatomy!!!

Ahmattu, i'm sorry, it was not my intention.. and if what i said sounded like an attack, then i apologize for not choosing the right words.

i was just saying what i say in jest - everybody has a different view when it comes to this subject, whatever i say is not valid when put into another person's different view. i was thinking you would laugh at my exaggerated (exaggerated in jest) view, and tell me i'm being stupid heheh :D put it this way: my own imagination- i will say it's limited to whatever i have studied. one example: i cannot design vehicles to save my life lol

my outlook is very lighthearted on the subject of "art", since "art" is something that can be debated with nobody having a "right" answer. what is "art" to somebody can be considered not art by someone else.

as for children, how about teach them that anything that cause harm to somebody is wrong and bad, and let them decide from there what is good and what is bad for themselves. most of the things in this world are more than what they seem on the outside :)

[Pinoy McGee]

When I go watch a "vampire movie" that has been advertised as an evil horror movie I expect vampires to be ugly, evil, scary.

When I watch a "romantic comedy" I expect the leading lady to be..... an ugly evil (w)itch...Just kidding! Maybe for the villain lady. But for the leading lady....beautiful, funny, and has a good set of teeth. :)

I usually watch movies because they're a form of entertainment and I don't take them as an accurate reflection of reality (I can show you my fangs though) or a conspiracy by the filmmakers to seduce me into their own way of thinking and lifestylle (maybe with the exception of coming back for the sequel).

Good or bad art? Hmmm...Lemme just say I just watch what I want to watch and leave the theater or stop the video player if it fails to meet my expectations <cough>Blade III<cough>. Evil movie = evil artists/filmmakers? Not necessarily...they more than likely just want to work. Many filmmakers and movie crews don't have a choice what projects they're hired for. I recommend watching behind-the-scenes documentaries in DVD versions of some movies. They'll show regular people just doing their own little roles as a part of a bigger studio or company like in other industries (but probably more creative).

The director might hold secret satanic rituals with his leading lady with good teeth in his trailer...but you'll have to search for that clip in the "Director's Cut" edition.

"Different strokes for different folks." :thumbsup:

[Vrimmel]

Weird obnoxious creatures have always fascinated me. But I like to romaticize the thought of evil behaviour, though I'm not a big fan of the term because of it's abstractness.

1. I do think creatng such things will affect the personality of the artist, I wouldn't say for the worse, but it would introduce beauty aspects other than what is common.

2. I think dealing with this for a long time would probably broaden the artists accept for viewing and depicturing evil acts. But for an artist to act upon this in his/her real life would occur seldom, and I think the artist would have to be crazy from before.

3. Personally, I'm not sure wether someone has to have an evil side, the people I know who would make such things usually have an interest for the morbid, but wouldn't act in it in real life and are certainly not evil.

I saw a lot of movies like this when I was younger. Now while I haven't done any evil acts, I do still enjoy the genre. Again in rare cases it might inspire violence, but probably with children who are already out of balance mentally.

4. I see no reason to call it bad art. Art is not about making people happy, even though it can have that effect in some cases. But if you don't like it, it could be bad to you. Everyone has their different aesthetic opinion.

[Per-Anders]

In answer to the original questions, my take:

- Yes of course, do anything long enough and it'll affect you one way or another
- In society in general? Go and look at some eclesiastical art, there's a great many images showing the depiction of evil in many forms (not just the gratuitous and ugly)... stored in Churches, Temples etc. The depiction invokes a reaction, the day that it doesn't evoke a negative reaction will be the day that we've become so desensitised, so base and crass (or so misguided) as to not be able to tell right from wrong at all levels, from morality through to scientific and evolutionary ideals. i.e. the errosion of value.
- Put it this way, everyone has nightmares now and then. Being frightened doesn't make someone capable of frightening others directly themselves through their own actions, but they could frighten others by telling the story of the nightmare. Just as someone who is bullied isn't always capable of bullying or inflicting the same thigns on others, but they sure as hell understand about bullying itself and what it's like, and they could explain that to others.
- Of course it affects children, it affects adults too. If it doesn't affect you then you're either completely desensitised (and it's affected you) or the film totally lacks any level of empathy or immersion... in which case what's the point in watching it?
- You're free to call whatever you want bad art, you don't need to wait for a critic to tell you. However not everyone will agree with you. Then again personally I don't consider that many films to be art at all, but it's never stopped me enjoying them all the same.

[LadyMedusa]

- does it affect the artist if he keeps creating these creatures?
No, I dont think so. Personally I'd never hurt anyone (mentally or physically) just for the sake of it, and I love making monsters (most of them doesnt get good enough to show around) and have done it since I can remember.

- will he have more evil after years of dealing with this stuff?
No

- does he have to have some evil before he creates evil?!
No, but he or she should understand what would be evil... like most people probably do

- we all know its just a movie, but for sure its affecting our children when they see these things, and I think very badly?
I think that depends on the child in question. They know they are evil, and they see the good one wins. Certanly, a lot of kids thinks evil is cool tough.

- can we consider it as bad art?
I would not. There can be repulsive good guys too, that kind of teatches you to not judge by looks. And I think our mind needs a break form ordinary things at times, and it would be dull if all creatures were good and "pretty" or "smooth".

[Ahmattu]

Ahmattu, I'm sorry
Its ok deaderthanred, I'm enjoying this discussion with you guys.


as I know the art actually can be anything, its just like when go crazy with something and do it deeply to the extreme where few people can imagine going there,

the "art" can be one of three types (useful, neutral, harmful) to the humanity, lets take very obvious examples:

- Sport, driving: useful

- Dancing, singing: neutral

- Theft, strip teasing: harmful (yes Theft can be an art).



so the artist should extremely feel all kind of details and more about something to come up with unusual things which is "art", otherwise it's not an art and it won't impress others.



I used to watch action movies a lot, and still can't stop myself of interacting with the actions, when the actors are fighting, my muscles goes on tension, and my teeth also, until the scene calms down, I don't know I'm so sensitive (or crazy) , maybe because I deal with art :shrug:

so same thing happens when I watch hell movies (I do that very often), I feel I want to vomit, (thrusting nails into hearts, into eyes, blood everywhere, slimy spit, obnoxious faces)

I just think what kind of mind who did that, and why would we broaden our imagination with that?



I know at the end its all about money, and which films sell more, people like to see what scare them, but mostly without knowing what is good for them, so the directors just use this desire to sell these films, and force (in a way or another) the artist to follow this genre. and artists they just fall in love because it's unusual (that's the art), but not always good as I mentioned.



I have some misc points to add:

- remember Alfred Hitchcock, was not that balanced person.
- in US some violence video games really caused some children to do exactly like what they do in the game and killed two police officers.
- it's easy to make people cary (tragedy), it's not easy to make them laugh (comedy)

Again I'm not solving a social issue, I'm talking about the art, I can't decide yet, to call it bad art or not.

No, I don't think so. Personally I'd never hurt anyone (mentally or physically) just for the sake of it
Sorry, I didn't say that artist who work with this stuff are group of killers.

[Emil3d]

- does it affect the artist if he keeps creating these creatures?
- will he have more evil after years of dealing with this stuff?
- does he have to have some evil before he creates evil?!

The artist is pretty much the same like an actor. A lot of actors play killers, villains, and monsters and there’s no evidence that one has to be like that in order to act as such or will become one after acting as evil character. It is simply the talent to act or depict evil.

- we all know its just a movie, but for sure its affecting our children when they see these things, and I think very badly?

Children grow trough a period where they may not clearly distinguishing between reality, and imagination or imagery. Supervision and special care must be taken for them and this is a responsibility of the parents and supervisors and the society during this period

- can we consider it as bad art?

I wouldn’t use the term “bad art” for what you described. May be something like horror art, dark art, etc.

[LadyMedusa]

Sorry, I didn't say that artist who work with this stuff are group of killers.
Not exactly what I ment by that either. If one steals, one harms someone mentally If one slaps or punches... or pokes a little roughfly, one harms someone physically.
I'm sorry.

[rakmaya]

Looks like one of our Prediction of Year 2006 is on the mark. Good Art/Bad Art thread is here.

Sorry to drop in like that. But I don't think they are in any way a representation of the artis's behavior; at most it might reflect their thoughts at that moment.

In my case, I never think of anything good or bad, including art. I am always amazed by the amount of detail an artist place into a work. I do not look any further than that. The reasons for such a work is no matter to me as it makes things more perspective than what it actually is and I don't like that.

[Stahlberg]

I don't know I'm so sensitive

I think you hit the nail on the head there. You're more sensitive to - well it would seem pretty much everything - than most other people. Compare it to a food allergy; some people are hyper-sensitive to wheat germ or lactose, most are not. It's not a good or bad thing in itself, unless you start judging everybody else for not being as sensitive as you are.

[Ahmattu]

It's not a good or bad thing in itself, unless you start judging everybody else for not being as sensitive as you are.

hmmmm I'll take that Stahlberg, but also I know other fellows how have the same feeling almost.

and it's not similar to allergy stuff I think, there's alot of evil in that in a way or another.

BTW, I didn't judge anybody.
and I don't want to make it so personal we are just discussing in general it's not about me as you can read the whole thread.

thanks anyway

[Ahmattu]

Certanly, a lot of kids thinks evil is cool tough.

I don't think it's good to feed these thoughts.

[Stahlberg]

BTW, I didn't judge anybody, we are just discussing,
Well I understand what you mean, but I guess someone like for instance Hitchcock might think you were judging his work (some of it anyway) to be evil or something... :)

[Ahmattu]

Hitchcock might think you were judging his work (some of it anyway) to be evil or something..

I think he's dead now,.... kiding :)

[helicopterr]

Looks like one of our Prediction of Year 2006 is on the mark. Good Art/Bad Art thread is here.

Took them long enough, I guess people are finally getting started on those demoreels.

[Peddy]

god i hope that doing evil art doesnt make you evil, otherwise i expect H.R Giger to be sitting the throne in hell when i get down there.

[ozhaver]

^:applause:

I just love Giger's art!!! <3

I had a phase...from 13-14 years old in which I only drew zombies, and demons and things like that all the time. I'd say studying my dad's medical disease and anatomy books...which I used for reference, helped me get a greater grasp in anatomy... I did want those guts and hanging organs, broken bones and bodily fluids to look as real and disgusting as possible ;-) I don't consider myself a bad person, or none of the related...

So I can say I answer with a NO to each one of your questions.

No, it really doesn't affect the artists mind.
No, s/he won't have more evil...
No, s/he doesn't need evil to create evil.
No, it can't affect children...unless the parent is doesn't doing his part...and lets the kid believe that these monsters are real...leading perhaps to bad sleeping and unnecessary fear.

Bad art? Nah uh!...NOPE, absolutely no... the good in art is interpreted within the lines of compositon, technique and concept. When I say concept it is as in how well it has been presented. A good interpretation of an "evil" concept makes good art.

You could say that in order to see the greater good, you have to know the greater evil and vice versa. One thing cannot be possible without the other. In platonic philosophy, evil is the lack of the idea of good in the pointed subject/object.

Then again I don't think the World in black & white terms...I dwelve more into the grays...even Dracula has its cute side. Then again someone's sweetnes is another's bitterness...

I mean, look at this, aren't they terribly cute? especially the one at the left... lol
http://www.artsforge.com/gallery_new/giger/tourist.jpg

[TheLostVertex]

Just to hop on in, I must say that I feel that yes, things as such will affect you. Most everything will affect us in some way, and especially kids, being much more impressionable than say, a 90 year old guy sitting in his rocking chair. But to some degree, everything will affect us, the amount that we are around the subject, and our subsequent reaction determines how. Even being desensitized is an effect, and some times people dont even noticed how desensitized to some things they really are. So often times "not being affected" by something furthers its effect on the individual.

That being said, I am not affected by monsters or vampires in any way :thumbsup:

[DisposableHero]

as humans we are imperfect,a nd I mean really so logically it is our inclination towards the more interesting, old rugged thing than the machine made shinny astetic object - look at the following two pictures, which one are you more moved by -
Old Ted (http://www.oldenbears.co.uk/myoldted.jpg) or New Ted (http://www.esljunction.com/esl-efl-flashcards/toys-flashcards/images/big/teddy-bear.gif) I may be going of on a bit of a tangent but when it comes to evil looking creatures, its probably the artist drawing his evil side. Or not even evil, just the more human nature side :)

[seven6ty]

If all art were "good" and "beautiful", it would be very boring and I wouldn't have much of an interest in it any longer.

Art isn't about only showing the pretty side of life, it's not only about showing the good and optimistic things in life. It's about showing the whole gambut of the spectrum of things that make up life. Good, bad, horrible, ugly, obscene, etc. I also say that if you want all art to cater to the likes and feelings of little kids, I'd have no interest in it any further as well. Shielding them from the elements of both good and bad doesn't help them and it doesn't educate them. Any parent can cover their eyes and ears and think that they've done a good job of parenting, but I really think a good parent is able to show them both sides of the coin and teach them how to adapt and live in such an environment.

[Ahmattu]

No, it can't affect children...unless the parent is doesn't doing his part...and lets the kid believe that these monsters are real...leading perhaps to bad sleeping and unnecessary fear.

Bad art? Nah uh!...NOPE, absolutely no... the good in art is interpreted within the lines of compositon, technique and concept. When I say concept it is as in how well it has been presented. A good interpretation of an "evil" concept makes good art.

You could say that in order to see the greater good, you have to know the greater evil and vice versa. One thing cannot be possible without the other. In platonic philosophy, evil is the lack of the idea of good in the pointed subject/object.

- come on oz haver, how in the world we can convince a kid that these monsters are not real, and the artists are going crazy and they just make everything looks plausible, sometimes its difficult to convince an adult that this is not real,

- I know what you mean: if there is not enough "evi" lin the creature it won't be successful job, which means not artistic enough,
but could you tell me where the "good" part here?

[Ahmattu]

If all art were "good" and "beautiful", it would be very boring and I wouldn't have much of an interest in it any longer..
why not, I don't think It's boring to live without Monsters and "Vampires" movies there are still alot of types of movies there is also "action", "fighting","science-fiction", "comedy", "Tragedy" "horror (not necessarily ugliness and evil)" .
I really think a good parent is able to show them both sides of the coin and teach them how to adapt and live in such an environment.
you're right the parents should show good and bad to the children, to know this life and deal with the good as good and be carefull from bad, that's true,
but I don't see any point of showing them "Vampires", we don't have them in our life :surprised!! , and I don't think they will learn anything from watching those, except "try" protecting them from the effect of other crazy new "ugly" movies that are coming from time to time by "ugly" industry.

[mangolass]

http://www.artsforge.com/gallery_new/giger/tourist.jpg

That's some nice "bad art" there ~ I wish I were that bad at drawing!

I do think people are affected by the art they create, though ~ or at least they should be, if they are artists.

LT

[Ahmattu]

I do think people are affected by the art they create, though ~ or at least they should be, if they are artists.

I like ur words.:thumbsup:

[Ahmattu]

its not only ugly creatures, there is worse:

those scenes which show that a monster coming out from a person, as that person face or body starts to melt and distort in extreme ugliness,

or a man is converted into monster (the conversion itself) its just so ugly and digusting, I think its a disease.

I know it needs powerful computer technologies to make it look like real, but this is my point why we are miss using the teqhnology and "art"?? why??

just somebody tells me it's about money, and what about the word "art" that we all like.

[Emil3d]

…its just so ugly and digusting, I think its a disease...I think you have a problem with accepting the fact that some people enjoy what you disgust. Accept the reality and leave in peace with it. Don’t worry about the others.

Nobody is forcing you to go through or even understand their experiences. Some people may spit and vomit the food you enjoy and there’s no problem - it is simply a matter of different taste, be happy that you have found and there is something that you enjoy.

:) By the way mark October 31 on your calendar. In some countries it is Halloween. If you happen to be in such a place, I advise you to stay indoor. For me though, it is simply kids having fun but for the unprepared eye, it may be a REAL horror :)

[Ahmattu]

I think you have a problem with accepting the fact that some people enjoy what you disgust. Accept the reality and leave in peace with it. Don’t worry about the others.

Nobody is forcing you to go through or even understand their experiences. Some people may spit and vomit the food you enjoy and there’s no problem - it is simply a matter of different taste, be happy that you have found and there is something that you enjoy.

:) By the way mark October 31 on your calendar. In some countries it is Halloween. If you happen to be in such a place, I advise you to stay indoor. For me though, it is simply kids having fun but for the unprepared eye, it may be a REAL horror :)

if you review my posts u'll see that I'm watching these movies from time to time (maybe for the sake of seeing the graphics and the computer tricks), and I'm already living with it,

but maybe u'r right, yes I'm trying to understand their experinces, and I'm trying to know how people enjoy extreme ugliness (and mostly artists) even though it opposes the origin of the humanity which doesn't have that much of evil and ugliness, maybe because our world is getting spoiled and worse increasingly day by day,(more killing, more hatred, more violance, less morals...etc),

so we need "art" which fulfill this weather.

for the Halloween stuff, I'm able to watch the extreme horror, but we don't have this over here so don't worry I'm safe :curious: :drool:

[deaderthanred]

even though it opposes the origin of the humanity which doesn't have that much of evil and ugliness
not necessarily so.. horror stories go back a long long time, there always have been people being mistreated, etc. only now with advanced communication and mass media stuff that you see alot of reports of such things that make you realize they are happening

dark artwork is certainly not the cause of the corruption of moral values. at most, artists who work on "evil" art are merely expressing their perspective of what is happening around them.

as for enjoying the creation of monsters in art, that is an entirely different thing altogether, with nothing related to "evil" or "good". i enjoy drawing monsters because there is no limit on what creature i can create. almost all fantasy monsters have anatomy that is a mix of animal/human anatomy, and i see this as very extraordinary and thus beautiful.

however, when it comes to application in movies, unless screen writers write about heroic demons (you should watch the movie "Hellboy" to see what i mean), the artist cannot sell these "ugly" monsters as good guys. it is because of the general expectation or cliche that "ugly" monsters must be bad guys in movies.. and that is why you see movie monsters are usually all mean and nasty :D

[Mu]

you know Ahmattu - people need monsters.

Like every aspect of a dream actually is a facet of your psychological disposition a monster characterized in a story or depicted in a painting serves a purpose, socially and individually.

My little daughter is sometimes afraid of monsters in her wall cupboard. Frequently we have to go and chase it away. One time she even yelled "Go away! I don't need you anymore!" at the cupboard monster.
I was totally taken aback by the fact that she said it all so clearly...

So, which purpose exactly the monsters we created serve is still a mystery. People can talk about this forever, but at the end of the day you will have to use some introspection and check these things out for yourself.

Actually, the fact that this concerns you so deeply might indicate that their are some powerful monsters within you you could create and put to good use yourself. Stop being scared of them and let's see some of yours...:twisted:

regards,
Murat

[Stahlberg]

more killing, more hatred, more violance, less morals...etc
In fact, you're completely wrong on that point. The opposite is true. The further back in time you go, the more you see of crime, prejudice, wars, dictators torturing and killing, disease, fear and hate, cannibalism, slavery, child-labor, you name it.

[paperclip]

Mmmmm......cannibalism.

I wonder if society was more or less 'natural' back then and it's unnatural now or vice versa.

[misledtomisery]

its not only ugly creatures, there is worse:

those scenes which show that a monster coming out from a person, as that person face or body starts to melt and distort in extreme ugliness,

or a man is converted into monster (the conversion itself) its just so ugly and digusting, I think its a disease.

I know it needs powerful computer technologies to make it look like real, but this is my point why we are miss using the teqhnology and "art"?? why??

just somebody tells me it's about money, and what about the word "art" that we all like.

i just happened on this thread, but isn't this judging?
and "miss using technology"? what??? we like realistic because we can. if creatures and monsters didnt look real, what is the point of them? why is any movie set in modern time? or comedies use real life situations? or anything sci-fi in general? to be realistic, believable, because the point is to be lost in an imaginary world we can believe. and if it really is a miss use of art and technology, why do you support them by watching them?

why not, I don't think It's boring to live without Monsters and "Vampires" movies there are still alot of types of movies there is also "action", "fighting","science-fiction", "comedy", "Tragedy" "horror (not necessarily ugliness and evil)
isn't there a villian in every plot? isn't that what makes it interesting? the bad guy. evil incarnate? a reason for the story?
and is the sheer violence in a "fighting" movie any better than a nightmare from a horror film to a child? can you justify the moral evils in the comedies (pranks on people, predjudice jokes), action (guns, violence, random overpowering use of death and explosions for cheap thrills) etc. ? while i think there is a miss use of the words ugly and evil from my definitions of the two, since i dont think any written or told story involves no evil.....ever..
just my two cents.

[Ahmattu]

you guys really enlightened me with these thoughts,
I enjoy drawing monsters because there is no limit on what creature i can create. almost all fantasy monsters have anatomy that is a mix of animal/human anatomy, and i see this as very extraordinary and thus beautiful.
I see ur point clearly here you enjoy the "art of the anatomy" which is fine, thats nice, I'm with u here.the artist cannot sell these "ugly" monsters as good guys. it is because of the general expectation or cliche that "ugly" monsters must be bad guys in movies..and here also I'm totally with you and especially if you add ten lines under "SELL"Stop being scared of them and let's see some of yours... ..u got wrong Mr. Mu, I'm not scared at all, its just digusting without any reason.. and ah.. ya let me try drawing some (just drawing maybe.. not acting who knows)
In fact, you're completely wrong on that point. The opposite is true. The further back in time you go, the more you see of crime, prejudice, wars, dictators torturing and killing, disease, fear and hate, cannibalism, slavery, child-labor, you name it
maybe u'r right, or I belive its like a wavy curve going through history, and we are now somewhere on a high point

"miss using technology"? what??? we like realistic because we can. if creatures and monsters didnt look real, what is the point of them? why is any movie set in modern time? or comedies use real life situations? or anything sci-fi in general? to be realistic, believable, because the point is to be lost in an imaginary world we can believe. and if it really is a miss use of art and technology, why do you support them by watching them?

take it easy, there some fellows here in the thread don't even consider this as an "art" at all, but I do consider this as an "art" for sure.
I think I didn't say it's about real or not real, I'm talking about "evil" and "ugliness",
(picking an eye of someone, taking his heart out with all kinds of bloody details, a face is getting melt, a monster enjoying eating someone's heart with all kinds of bloody details, blood everywhere, slimy spit, obnoxious faces)
is this a preffered way to go out of reality?? and if we don't go there with our minds then are we locked to the reality???!!, I don't think so!
there are much more places to set ur imagination free.
BTW, I watch them beacuse I do graphics, so I watch the visual techniques, and still hate the idea, and I don't think this is supporting.

[Agostinuke]

Whenever I see someone talking about morals in life and evil in Art....I start to think to Medioeve and Inquisition. Witches and Giordano Bruno burning in Campo dei Fiori in Rome.

You are a smart guy, but watch yourself.

[LadyMedusa]

Wouldn't it be a little more scary if the humans did all that in a realistic manner?
(eating body parts and organs of fellow humans, killing someone brutally ect.) We all know that happens, so a simple "I'ts just a movie" would be a little weaker, I think.

If we mix the bad guy from "The Silence of the Lambs", "Psycho" and "Texsas Chainsaw Massacre" we get a really sick guy that really existed, Ed Gein (don't google it). Why do you think they took only parts of his behaviour into theese movies?
When they are monsters, they are allowed to be as sick as you could possibly immagine, but it seems human villans gets "sweetened out" compared to theyre real selfs.

If there were only human villans, woulnt people be more paranoid, knowing that what they'd see would acctually be possible?

If you can't handle a horror movie, how can you hande the true horrors of our world?


There are also action movies and dramas whit some good visual effects. Buying or watching a movie at the cinema is supporting it even if you don't like it.

[ozhaver]

- come on oz haver, how in the world we can convince a kid that these monsters are not real, and the artists are going crazy and they just make everything looks plausible, sometimes its difficult to convince an adult that this is not real,

- I know what you mean: if there is not enough "evi" lin the creature it won't be successful job, which means not artistic enough,
but could you tell me where the "good" part here?

Well...err I think believing what you see in movies is just stupid...it's all fiction anyways...no matter how realistic it is. Not even real footage is real cuz it is a capture of a time that doesn't exist anymore...so I guess it would depend on the kids and the parents IQ and level of responsibility... what responsible parent would let his kid watch horror flicks anyway? And convincing them is easy...sit down and talk, explain...etc. It's even easier nowadays with all the extra footage, making of, and all that stuff they put for bonus features in dvds...etc.

job? success? Ok... using words like this would lead me to believe that it isn't possible for you to consider the fact that some people are passionate about creating horrific and grotesque good art... Making it plausible is part of the art itself! Artists create illusions, visions, imagery...

Unless you are referring to good as in art as a means of goodness (not good as in great, well done, masterful, etc....art)...If this is the case, then it would imply you kind of believe there is essential evil in this world...or something along this way...which I honestly can't abide with...so what you are referring is to evil art?

cuz bad art is something else to me...bad art lacks merit in the composition, conceptual and technical spheres, that's all...and a lot of the monstrous and grotesque, or like you call it, 'disgusting' art is actually really good...

I don't think it wise to delve into the 'morals' of art... I believe the code of ethics to each artist should be freedom to create whatever s/he wants...

Like I said before, what my be disgusting to you can be someone else's delight.

There is no evil in art, I think evil is only found in the resonance of the viewer...the artist just brings out the reactions.

I think the real world actually has bigger horrors than sci-fi, horror and fantasy FXs...

Another thing, we can't create from nothing. Every single monster has a parent. Be it the hypocritical snake-tongued gossip neighbor, or the thug honking it's horn like a madman in traffic or more severe murderers, etnophobes (and all the other phobes for all it matters), and other such psychopaths... In the end... vampires, werewolves and demons can't stand up to these...because the difference it that they, the bad monsters, are not real.

edit: And if you need answers to your questions of why would artist enjoy creating these horrors... I think you may need to research Romanticism, Supernatural Horror in Literature, Gothic Literature...Gothic Romance Literatureor just browse through legends and folklore...the apocalypse in the bible is quite enticing...and asian legends on demon gods, and the such are very entertaining...etc....and after that link the enjoyment of this type of readings to Illustration and after Illustration, cinematography...

I'd also like to say Frankenstein Or The Modern Prometeus is one of the best novels ever written, not one detail is taken for granted...and the questioning of blood, family, humanity, good and evil are very interestingly presented... (spending two months studying it for literature class is not as much fun, but hey, I aced that course by the end of the semester so it was worth it!)

[Ahmattu]

Wouldn't it be a little more scary if the humans did all that in a realistic manner?
(eating body parts and organs of fellow humans, killing someone brutally ect.) We all know that happens, so a simple "I'ts just a movie" would be a little weaker, I think.

If we mix the bad guy from "The Silence of the Lambs", "Psycho" and "Texsas Chainsaw Massacre" we get a really sick guy that really existed, Ed Gein (don't google it). Why do you think they took only parts of his behaviour into theese movies?
When they are monsters, they are allowed to be as sick as you could possibly immagine, but it seems human villans gets "sweetened out" compared to theyre real selfs.

If there were only human villans, woulnt people be more paranoid, knowing that what they'd see would acctually be possible?
If you can't handle a horror movie, how can you hande the true horrors of our world?
There are also action movies and dramas whit some good visual effects. Buying or watching a movie at the cinema is supporting it even if you don't like it.

I like your head there Medusa, but realy I'm not scared and I'm watching these movies... I can handle it, but I'm talking about the art and the evil inspiration, I'm trying to understand how "artists" dive and dive deeply into evil imagination, and why?

BTW, I'm not buying them, neither going to cinema, its just my home tv channels if they are there.

anyway I've got a lot of details from you guys maybe I had to read those books that My friend "oz haver" adviced me.

Unless you are referring to good as in art as a means of goodness (not good as in great, well done, masterful, etc....art)...If this is the case, then it would imply you kind of believe there is essential evil in this world...or something along this way...which I honestly can't abide with...so what you are referring is to evil art?

cuz bad art is something else to me...bad art lacks merit in the composition, conceptual and technical spheres, that's all...and a lot of the monstrous and grotesque, or like you call it, 'disgusting' art is actually really good...

And if you need answers to your questions of why would artist enjoy creating these horrors... I think you may need to research Romanticism, Supernatural Horror in Literature, Gothic Literature...Gothic Romance Literatureor just browse through legends and folklore...the apocalypse in the bible is quite enticing...and asian legends on demon gods, and the such are very entertaining...etc....and after that link the enjoyment of this type of readings to Illustration and after Illustration, cinematography...


thanks alot man for ur advice, you mostly answered most of my wonderings here in this post,I think I missed reading such books, cuz simply I didn't know they are there.

thanks again for the new name "disgusting art" , I think it more describes what I mean.

[Ahmattu]

You are a smart guy, but watch yourself.
don't worry I'm an expert in martial arts :cool: , but anyway, thanks for the advice :)

[ozhaver]

so wanna read?



The Castle of Otranto (1764) by Horace Walpole
Vathek, an Arabian Tale (1786) by William Thomas Beckford
The Mysteries of Udolpho (1794) by Ann Radcliffe
Caleb Williams (1794) by William Godwin
The Monk (1796) by Matthew Gregory Lewis
The Italian (1797) by Ann Radcliffe
Frankenstein (1818) by Mary Shelley
The Vampyre; a Tale (1819) by John William Polidori
Melmoth the Wanderer (1820) by Charles Robert Maturin
Confessions of an English Opium-Eater (1821) by Thomas de Quincey
The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner (1824) by James Hogg
Young Goodman Brown (1835) by Nathaniel Hawthorne
The Fall of the House of Usher (1839) by Edgar Allan Poe
The Tell-Tale Heart (1843) by Edgar Allan Poe
The Mummy's Foot (1863) by Théophile Gautier
The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (1886) by Robert Louis Stevenson
The Picture of Dorian Gray (1891) by Oscar Wilde
The Horla (1887) by Guy de Maupassant
The Yellow Wallpaper (1892) by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
Dracula (1897) by Bram Stoker
The Turn of the Screw (1898) by Henry James
The Monkey's Paw (1902) by W.W. Jacobs
The Phantom of the Opera (1910) by Gaston Leroux
The Lair of the White Worm (1911) by Bram Stoker
The Vampire Chronicles books (1976-2003) & Lives of the Mayfair Witches books (1990-2003) by Anne Rice
The Secret Books of Paradys I, II, III & IV (1988-1994) by Tanith Lee
& other tons and tons of fictions, etc.

I especially adore Laurell K. Hamilton's work in the Anita Blake and Mery Gentry series...though not many consider them high literature... lol

Of course, you need to research the period, historically and literary...Romanticism and the Gothic movement inside it. Then you link it to Illustration, theatre and later on, cinematography and I think you'll be able to make the connections and answer your questions. Though I really think that people have always been just fascinated by all this. Count me in.

[Ahmattu]

Though I really think that people have always been just fascinated by all this. Count me in.

ok, u're in

don't tell me that u read all that, I will go through some of them to get basic ideas.

[ozhaver]

ok, u're in

don't tell me that u read all that, I will go through some of them to get basic ideas.

While some I read on my own choice: I swear they made me read the rest. (University...you know how it is...) :blush:

[Tryn]

Stories with monsters as antagonists are enjoyed by most people, because they show that monsters can be defeated. Before the days of science and reason, the world away from the campfire was an unknown, dark and scary place (ok, arguably it still is...). Inventing monsters let people personify their fears into a defeatable form - most (if not all) the classical monsters have mortal weaknesses that allowed them to be defeated by human cunning.

[sprunghunt]

'Horrible' or 'ugly' art does not always serve the function of being a fantasy that the creator would like to participate in. (as others have mentioned)

Art can be a catharsis. This means that by drawing or sculpting something which represents some unpleasant feelings you are 'letting out' the emotions which cause you problems. Like shining a flashlight into a dark corner this can make your problems much easier to deal with.

This is the basis of a psycological technique known as Art therapy which uses art in this way to deal with people who have suffered severe emotional trauma.
www.arttherapy.org/about.html (http://www.arttherapy.org/about.html)

So drawing your problems (even in the metaphorical form of a monster) may make you a better, more emotionally stable, person rather than 'increasing evil'.

[Ahmattu]

'Horrible' or 'ugly' art does not always serve the function of being a fantasy that the creator would like to participate in. (as others have mentioned)

Art can be a catharsis. This means that by drawing or sculpting something which represents some unpleasant feelings you are 'letting out' the emotions which cause you problems. Like shining a flashlight into a dark corner this can make your problems much easier to deal with.

This is the basis of a psycological technique known as Art therapy which uses art in this way to deal with people who have suffered severe emotional trauma.
www.arttherapy.org/about.html (http://www.arttherapy.org/about.html)

So drawing your problems (even in the metaphorical form of a monster) may make you a better, more emotionally stable, person rather than 'increasing evil'.

thanks to make my thread ur first step in this website,

so how about enjoying watching, and advertising "evil"?

[Emil3d]

...so how about enjoying watching, and advertising "evil"?It will be a real horror, if you see a lion a few feet from you in the open and you have nothing to protect yourself. The, experience will be anything but enjoyment. However a lot of people pay to go to the zoo and ENJOY watching it from a few feet safely in a cage. So to answer you I would say, people enjoy it because it is safe and don’t feel any pain or harm.

[Ahmattu]

people enjoy it because it is safe and don’t feel any pain or harm.

well... not for all, i guess!,

BTW, the point was in focus recently in this thread, we are talking about "disgusting art", not scary, because I don't think scaring needs alot of dirty thoughts.

[sprunghunt]

thanks to make my thread ur first step in this website,

so how about enjoying watching, and advertising "evil"?

Well this is a very contentious issue. Academic and scientific viewpoints on this issue are often vauge and confusing.

However I personally believe that there is a strong social element to any art. Therefore the type of art you enjoy has much to say about how you socialise or what social scene you identify with. Art here serves to identify yourself with your peers by showing publicly your emotional tastes.

For example - if you're strongly into listening to heavy metal music you would probably enjoy art with 'heavy metal' themes or overtones and are able to identify and meet people you know you'll be able to easily socialise with just by identifying their taste in visual art.

So I believe that by enjoying 'evil' art you're not 'increasing your evil' but merely identifying in art emotions and ideology that you already posess.

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