DV CAMCORDER vs PROFESSIONAL DV CAMERA

[Matty2Phatty]

Are you comparing MiniDV to DVCam? You didn't really list specific cameras you were looking at, or even which festival specifically you were targeting.

Though i would offer this advice, don't shoot DV unless you absolutely have to. DVCam will look a lot better than MiniDV, but it is still DV.

As for mics, professionals don't plug their mics into the camera. The sound department records onto a DAT tape.

[AmpedDigital]

thanks for your reply, im comparing a normal dv camera that you can buy in the shops for $700 to a camera that pro's use that go for about $ 7000 i will be sending this movie to the australian film festival.

[Matty2Phatty]

Oh, there's actually a festival called the 'Australian Film Festival'?

As for your cameras, $7000 is still consumer, it's just a bit higher up. I assume you're talking about XL2 and the like.

MiniDV is basically the absolute worst format. It's the bottom of the range, and it would be misleading to refer to ANY MiniDV camera as 'professional'.

The XL2 is arguably the best consumer DV camera out there. Basically you're looking for 3CCD's, and true 16:9 chips.

Next level up is consumer HD, which is pretty dodgy, and really compressed. Expect to pay around $6000 - $10,000 AUD for them.

Above that is the actual professional DV cameras, known as DVCam. These can be picked up from $20,000 - $30,000 AUD.

In this range you can also start looking into 16mm film cameras, you're definitely in the professional realm now, and you can pick up some good Aaton Super16mm cameras, or any other brand you might fancy for between $25,000 - $40,000 AUD.

Above that you're in the $100,000 AUD plus range... this is where the true 'professionals' are at.

2k digital, and 35mm film are the top of the range. Though i believe the newest crop from Panavision retails at $400,000 AUD.

So, since you're talking about consumer DV, i would advise you just find anything that can shoot true 16:9 and has 3 CCD's, and it will do the job.

Festivals WON'T judge you on which DV camera you used, only that you actually shot it on DV as opposed to a professional format (some will see you as a young up-and-comer and give you a break)

[AmpedDigital]

ok excellent youve helped me out alot, thanks alot for your advice, at least now i know what to hire out for the movie :) take care and once again thanks for taking the time to help

[dasomen]

I disagree with some of the comments on the previous post... DV format is more suitable for TV than for film, but there are professional miniDV cameras below $7000 for sure. In my experience, i've worked with many digital camcorders, like XL1, XL2, Sony's HVR-Z1U, panasonic's AJ-SDX900, AG-DVX100 and AG-HVX200, etc., which is the one i can recommend you for the price/features.

MiniDV = DVCAM, the first being panasonic, jvc, etc, the last being sony; both having the same DV signal.

What differences Pro from Consumer are several features, among are: full control of focus, iris, white balance, XLR inputs, phantom power, 3CCD, bigger CCD size, ability for saving different presets, interchangable lenses, progressive recording modes (24P, 30P), channel mixing, zebra patters, etc etc. which for the most part are not available in those cameras you buy at the supermarket.

For instance, the AG-HVX200 has multiple frame rate recording, this means you can shoot at 24 fps, 30 fps or 60 fps (great for slow motion), also has the ability to record to multiple formats: DVCPRO HD, DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO 25, and DV, it supports high definition etc.

The 24p mode is really good if you're going for cine-like effect, it also has a mode for adjusting the gamma to emulate cine.

Keep in mind that for many, film is still the best option. I believe that digital film-making has a LOT of advantages over traditional film making, and it's a great option to go for in low budget proyects, it should not be despised.

Also keep in mind that making a transfer from DV to film will make the weeknesses of the DV format more evident, there's where compression (4:2:2, 4:4:4, etc) and CCD size start to make a lot more sense :)

So in conclusion: Yes, it will make a difference, your audience will thank you for using a professional miniDV camera.

Also, for little to medium color correction, contrast, etc, 3CCD is required. Always light well in location, don't work with an 'i'll fix later in post' philosophy, it will save you lots of headaches for sure.:)

[shadow]

MiniDV = DVCAM, the first being panasonic, jvc, etc, the last being sony; both having the same DV signal.
Only difference between DV (including miniDV) and DVCAM is the tapespeed. DVCAM runs faster and has a smaller chance at dropouts than miniDV. Both use the DV25 codec.
DVCam will look a lot better than MiniDV, but it is still DV.
The reason why most think the DVCAM picture is by definition better than DV is because DVCAM camera's begin at a higher pricerange.

[AmpedDigital]

wow information overload, but at least now i have some camera models to play with thanks for the advice :)

[Matty2Phatty]

Yes, it will make a difference, your audience will thank you for using a professional miniDV camera.

As opposed to what :sad:

My point was that if he's shooting miniDV, all he needs to worry about is that it has 3CCD's and can shoot 16:9. I've never seen an audience at a film festival remark about a beautiful MiniDV image on the big screen.

All i've ever heard was 'oh, you can tell this is DV'. And that goes for everything shot at standard definition.

I'm not sure why everybody seems to think standard definition is still playable on television.
I must live in a country with exceptionally strict guidelines about television broadcast format.

[dasomen]

' I'm not sure why everybody seems to think standard definition is still playable on television.
I must live in a country with exceptionally strict guidelines about television broadcast format.'

'standard definition', 'playable on television', 'strict guidelines' ? hmmm, lets take a look:

The picture resolution for standard definition TV (SDTV) in Australia is 720x576 lines, scanned at 50Hz interlaced = 576i, 625 lines per image, and acording to ABC (Australian Broadcast Corporation) it was since 2001 all broadcast is required to be 16:9.

Now lets take XL2's specs:
true 16:9 (960 x 576 pixels) and 4:3 (720 x 576 pixels) both 625 lines, 50 interlaced or 25 progressive.

Well, seems to me that resolution is not a problem for broadcast.

As for sound, these professional cameras record 48kHz/16-bit, 2 or 4 channels depending on brand, so same quality as DAT, no problem here.

As for viewers finding more pleasent to the eye a film shoot by any of these professional cameras compared to a $700 one, oh well, i guess if they can tell when something is a DV shoot they will apreciate a better focus, better color, better gamma, better contrast, better resolution, 24fps film shooted by these cameras.

Also, there are plenty of festivals all over the world, you should check what other people think of digital filmaking.

Cheers,

p.s. The camera I recommend is a multiformat one, which is below $7000, also i think you should know that DVCPRO has become the defacto broadcast standard, replacing Betacam, here is an small list of Networks of over the world using it:

EDIT: These networks seem to use DVCPRO, either on production and/or for dubbing:

BBC News, Reuters TV, NBC, CBS, Granada TV, Scottish TV, Yorkshire TV, ITN, SFB, NRK, TV3, TVG, TVE, Canal Plus, Shanghai TV, China Central TV, Nippon TV, Fuji TV, Tokyo Metro TV, GLOBAL TV, Benedek, Time Warner, WNET, WKJG, FOX, CBC, CanWest, Televisa, TV-Azteca, ZDF, Seven Network TV, Telecom Video, Mercury TV and ABC.

p.s2. Most people don't know much about the country were i live, México, here is a link for info about the main broadcast network in mexico, for general culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Televisa and another for our second broadcast network: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Azteca

[Matty2Phatty]

Well, seems to me that resolution is not a problem for broadcast.

But it is a problem, that's what i'm saying. Television stations here in australia don't buy material shot at standard definition. I know this because i have personally spoke with them about putting programs on the market.

It's all high definition now, unless it's for news or a documentary. Are you arguing this for the sake of argument?

The point is simply not to spend too much money if you're only going to be shooting SD anyway. People at the festivals won't care.

[AmpedDigital]

hey guys i can see the point in both the arguments, the camera that i was thinking of buying to shoot the film is somewhere along this line of things

http://www.teds.com.au/www/6/1001102/displayproduct/1416874_1001228_.html

the only difference in mine camera is that i want it to take mini dv tapes instead of this built in hard drive the above link is just the example of basic specs i want my camera to have, which by reading by what you guys wrote it means that this is good enough for festivals but not for tv ... which is fine by me, as long as i record the sound on a DAT then link it in post when i go to edit the thing it should be fine?

[dasomen]

Originally Posted by Matty2Patty:
It's all high definition now, unless it's for news or a documentary. Are you arguing this for the sake of argument?

I'm getting a little tired of this Matty2Patty, i don't mean to be rude but The Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA), who is responsible for the regulation of broadcasting, radiocommunications, telecommunications and online content contradicts your saying:

'Currently - some programs are broadcast in HDTV...' 'SDTV is transmitted at all times - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week' source: The Australian Broadcaster Autority.For anyone who like to check the document go here (http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER.131456:STANDARD:670339796%3Cimg%20src=%22images/smilies/tongue.gif%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22%22%20title=%22stick%20out%20tongue%22%20smilieid=%226%22%20class=%22inlineimg%22%20/%3Ec=PC_91870#sdtv)

So, my point is: Misinformation is not good, period.

AmpedDigital, good luck with your film.:p

p.s. For more information on SDTV, HD etc: http://www.dtvforum.info/lofiversion/index.php/t29115.html

[AmpedDigital]

cool thanx for the advice, i mean weater australia only buys hd or sd really dosnt matter because as from what i understand all i really need for the festival is a sd camera as long as it has 3 ccd's but even that isnt necessary if i am shooting for a film festival as long as the picture is crisp and good quality which alot of DV cameras that you can buy (like the link i provided earlier) can deliver. thanks for the replys once again.

[Matty2Phatty]

Absolutely correct Amped :) Lemme know when you finish shooting.

I've seen online arguments a few times and always thought they were pathetic. I can't believe i just found myself in the middle of one. :rolleyes: For the record, the networks do only buy HD material, regardless of what they broadcast at :D hehe.

[AmpedDigital]

:) well if you like my msn address is hiroku69@hotmail.com you can add me with that and ill keep you updated :)

[curious_69_george]

p.s. The camera I recommend is a multiformat one, which is below $7000, also i think you should know that DVCPRO has become the defacto broadcast standard, replacing Betacam, here is an small list of Networks of over the world using it:

BBC News, Reuters TV, NBC, CBS, Granada TV, Scottish TV, Yorkshire TV, ITN, SFB, NRK, TV3, TVG, TVE, Canal Plus, Shanghai TV, China Central TV, Nippon TV, Fuji TV, Tokyo Metro TV, GLOBAL TV, Benedek, Time Warner, WNET, WKJG, FOX, CBC, CanWest, Televisa, TV-Azteca, ZDF, Seven Network TV, Telecom Video, Mercury TV and ABC.



I don't know where you got your information from, but I can tell you right now that DVCPro has not become the defacto standard. The CBC for one is not DVCPro, they are sticking with Sony and the Betacam, Digibeta, HDCam format.

Just thought if you are going to chastize someone for mis-information, yours should be correct.

[dasomen]

I don't know where you got your information from, but I can tell you right now that DVCPro has not become the defacto standard. The CBC for one is not DVCPro, they are sticking with Sony and the Betacam, Digibeta, HDCam format.

Just thought if you are going to chastize someone for mis-information, yours should be correct.

This is becoming second time job for me, i will post some sources for you to read :

Quote: 'DVCPRO has become the defacto broadcast standard, replacing Betacam. ...'used by ...CBC • CanWest • Televisa" Source, lemac.com.au (http://www.panasonic.ca/english/broadcast/PDF/whitepaper_fnl.pdf)

Source Panasonic : (http://www.panasonic.ca/english/broadcast/PDF/whitepaper_fnl.pdf)
Many Canadian TV stations and networks have already converted to 480 digital
for their news gathering operations. Systems such as Panasonic’s DVCPRO are becoming
synonymous with newsgathering and digital video. DVCPRO, for instance, is used by
news operations around the world, including CNN and the BBC and Radio Canada, the
French-language arm of the CBC.

a few others:
http://www.broadcastdialogue.com/article_view.asp?action=view&idnumber=516
http://tig.colorist.org/archives/public/oldtig-mhonarc/1997/msg01606.html

So, ok.. in the case you work for the CBC, i most believe what you say is true, in which solely case there was an error on the list i posted, and CBC does not use DVCPRO.

Otherwise, probe it, i said CBC and other networks around the world use DVCPRO, not that the list contained networks who use DVCPRO only and nothing else, learn to read. CBC use DVCPRO, it's on their website (http://www.cbc.ca/studios/video_studio.html), maybe they lied, right?

About DVCPRO vs Digibeta worldwide, DVCPRO = 500,000 units sold since 1996, Digibeta=90,000 units sold since 1993.

sources:
Panasonic (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=93132&modelNo=Content04142005084327322&surfModel=Content04142005084327322)
Sony (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/gimme/storereframe.php?view=item&item=sony_dvw-970)

[Matty2Phatty]

Quote: 'DVCPRO has become the defacto broadcast standard, replacing Betacam. ...'used by ...CBC • CanWest • Televisa" Source, lemac.com.au (http://www.panasonic.ca/english/broadcast/PDF/whitepaper_fnl.pdf)

I know lemac, i have spoke with them numerous times about renting their gear. But it is important to note that they are in fact trying to plug their gear. Just because they tell you something about their cameras doesn't make it so. They have vested interest in making their camera look good.

EDIT: Actually while i'm talking about source credibility, wikipedia can be added to by anybody, meaning the information on there is only as good as the person who posted it.

I see it happen a lot at trade shows, when misinformed representatives try to sell their gear, stating that it is 'what the professionals use'.

Another on that list that is not correct is network 7, who use Beta in their studio, and their camera i've seen them use when they're out getting the news looks like beta too, though i can't verify that one for sure, as i just drive past.

[dasomen]

I see it happen a lot at trade shows, when misinformed representatives try to sell their gear, stating that it is 'what the professionals use'.

Granted, it's up to the person to check info from salesmen.

[curious_69_george]

This is becoming second time job for me, i will post some sources for you to read :

Quote: 'DVCPRO has become the defacto broadcast standard, replacing Betacam. ...'used by ...CBC • CanWest • Televisa" Source, lemac.com.au (http://www.panasonic.ca/english/broadcast/PDF/whitepaper_fnl.pdf)

Source Panasonic : (http://www.panasonic.ca/english/broadcast/PDF/whitepaper_fnl.pdf)
Many Canadian TV stations and networks have already converted to 480 digital
for their news gathering operations. Systems such as Panasonic’s DVCPRO are becoming
synonymous with newsgathering and digital video. DVCPRO, for instance, is used by
news operations around the world, including CNN and the BBC and Radio Canada, the
French-language arm of the CBC.

a few others:
http://www.broadcastdialogue.com/article_view.asp?action=view&idnumber=516
http://tig.colorist.org/archives/public/oldtig-mhonarc/1997/msg01606.html

So, ok.. in the case you work for the CBC, i most believe what you say is true, in which solely case there was an error on the list i posted, and CBC does not use DVCPRO.

Otherwise, probe it, i said CBC and other networks around the world use DVCPRO, not that the list contained networks who use DVCPRO only and nothing else, learn to read. CBC use DVCPRO, it's on their website (http://www.cbc.ca/studios/video_studio.html), maybe they lied, right?

About DVCPRO vs Digibeta worldwide, DVCPRO = 500,000 units sold since 1996, Digibeta=90,000 units sold since 1993.

sources:
Panasonic (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=93132&modelNo=Content04142005084327322&surfModel=Content04142005084327322)
Sony (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/gimme/storereframe.php?view=item&item=sony_dvw-970)

Yes....I do work for the CBC.

And before naming something to be the defacto standard, look at the list. There is one mention of DVCPro 25, in the Dub room. In all the production booths on the specific page you site, they are using Betacam SX. Now if it was the standard, wouldn't they be using it in the Production booths?

I also worked for CTV, and they also are running Betacam, Digibeta, Betacam SX, and HDCAM. The only place you will find a DVCPro deck is in a dub suite to convert it to a form of Betacam. Now that is two of the biggest television stations here in canada. And neither is using DVCPro for acquisition.

Now I am a firm believer in that you can shoot with whatever you want as long as the content is there. That is the important thing.

You can have the best camera's in the world, and all the money to support your project, but if the content isn't there, your product will fail, and no one will want to watch it.

[dasomen]

Totally agree with your last comments curious_69_george. (http://member.php?u=138400)About the ‘defecto standard’ I was quoting lemac on that remark, but it is true, saying DVCPRO is the standard is not accurate. There appear to be more DVCPRO units sold, with faster acceptance by many networks in the world in comparison to digibeta.

As I said before, the list contains networks using the DVCPRO format, not networks restricted to DVCPRO. Either way I made an edit correction to say this clear: networks using DVCPRO either on dub or production.

Cheers,

[mookid2005]

The camera you linked to is no techically a dv cmera. It mentions 'DVD quality, which I believe is a lower standard than DV. also, it only has one CCD

[dan_aka_jack]

"DVD quality, which I believe is a lower standard than DV"

Is the "DVD quality" camera recording MPEG2?

[mookid2005]

'Either way, the high quality MPEG-2 recordings are the same format used as a DVD. There will be no quality loss when burning to DVD.'

[AmpedDigital]

ok thanks for the posts, but if i buy a camera with only one ccd chip is that a major quality difference from 3 ccd chips?

[curious_69_george]

ok thanks for the posts, but if i buy a camera with only one ccd chip is that a major quality difference from 3 ccd chips?

Yes. There is a significant difference.

[Matty2Phatty]

Agreed. The difference is obvious when you compare a 3ccd image to a 1ccd image.

But, if you're strapped for cash, i say go the 1ccd route and spend the money on good sound. Your film is for festivals right? I doubt they'll judge you based on how many CCD's the camera had. I suspect they'll just see that it's DV and judge it at that.

[AmpedDigital]

yes good idea, ill just spend some money renting out a DAT, and then match the sound in post ... im glad i can get away with 1 ccd :D

[AmpedDigital]

ive learned alot from you guys thanks for the help :)

[Matty2Phatty]

yes good idea, ill just spend some money renting out a DAT, and then match the sound in post ... im glad i can get away with 1 ccd :D

When you do, make sure you speak to the person you get it from about syncing the DAT to the camcorder. Tape can speed up and slow down, and requires wind up time at the start and end of your take.

[AmpedDigital]

will do ill make sure to speak to him about it. i didnt know that was the case :)

[jpiazzo]

DAT recorders are digital - they do not vary in speed, or they would not work. If you use any external digital recorder just make sure you slate with visual and sound clues ( a simple clap of the hands works fine) DV and DAT will stay in sync for the whole tape if you don't cut.



JP

[Matty2Phatty]

Yeah, the guy is probably right, sorry :) I was confusing two different things. I've seen sound guys have to roll sound for a few seconds and the assistant director had to call it before i could say action, i assumed that was DAT. Sound isn't my bag.

My mistake. :thumbsup:

[AmpedDigital]

ah ok, so every scene that i shoot i do a hand clap before we roll that way i can sync the sound later? sound is very tricky.

[FabioMSilva]

u turn on the camara by saying "ENGINE", then u say "SOUND" (the sound guys start recording the sound)and then "ROLL" or "ACTION"(camara starts recording). When u say Action the camara starts recording, and with the clackete sound u can have something to guide you with when u go to editing and joining the sound with the video.

[AmpedDigital]

Thanks for the advice solid snake i know the basics of filming and what to call out, i just didnt think they had a purpose lol, i thought that all the calling out was for looks. :D But the planning for the movie has had some hiccups but its coming together we have hired out a 100 year old mansion with 46 rooms to shoot our first scene, so very excited about that :)

[Matty2Phatty]

I think i know the mansion you're talking about.

Is it in Melbourne?

[Matty2Phatty]

"ROLL" or "ACTION"(camara starts recording). When u say Action the camara starts recording

Just to clarify...

When you say "roll camera" then the camera operator/DP will start rolling the film through the camera (with about 2 seconds of speed up time) and then when "Action" is called, the actors do their actions.

Action is the last call, and is done AFTER the clapper.

With digital a lot of the calls aren't really required, but people still do it, i guess out of habit.

[AmpedDigital]

yes its in melbourne near geelong, really excited about this one, they gave us a good discount since its a student project. The mansion is supposibly haunted and was shown on channel ten as they captured a ghost above the stairs. :D

[Matty2Phatty]

Yeah, i have heard of that place :) well done getting that location. Though unless the story called for that mansion specifically, i would suggest that perhaps it's a little TOO well known.

[AmpedDigital]

Heh there wasnt any other mansion i could think of at the time, and ssince i had been there previously it seemed perfect. have you been there, its a great experience they have the works

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.