CGTalk - David Gould releases book detailing Mel and Maya's c++ API

ambient-whisper

11-29-2002, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by bentllama
Dont forget this book either!

MEL Scripting for Maya Animators

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1558608419/ref=pd_sim_books_1/102-6869793-9884138?v=glance&s=books

http://www.mkp.com/books_catalog/catalog.asp?ISBN=1-55860-841-9

Damn...maybe these books can rid me of my recent nightmares of giant "M" figures with arms and legs chasing me through dark tunnels screaming " MEL! MEL! MEL! " !!! :)

any idea if that book will be good.? i already ordered the david goulds book. but thinking about this one too.

dgould

11-29-2002, 10:06 AM

Thanks for the support. I'd love to hear feedback from everyone once they've read it. Also any feedback about the website would be much appreciated.

All the best with your Maya programming!

Luke Werhli

11-29-2002, 12:02 PM

any idea if that book will be good.? i already ordered the david goulds book. but thinking about this one too.

In the AliasWavefront Listserver, the author said it is more focused in Mel for Animators and Effects. It´s not target for developers and those who want to write plug-ins, for example.
Here is the link for an detailed explanation of the book and authors:http://www.mkp.com/books_catalog/catalog.asp?ISBN=1-55860-841-9

About the authors:
Mark Wilkins is a Senior Technical Director at PDI/DreamWorks. He has worked at Walt Disney Feature Animation and contributed to a number of films including Dinosaur, Mission Impossible 2, A.I., and Minority Report. Mark holds a degree in physics from Harvey Mudd College.

Chris Kazmier is an Effects Animator/Technical Director at DreamWorks Feature Animation. Previously Chris worked at PDI/DreamWorks on the Intel Aliens ad campaign, and at Fox Animation Studios on Titan AE, Bartok the Magnificent, and Anastasia.

I´ll take both of them.

One more book:Maya Character Animation (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0782141714/qid=1038574974/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0511540-9982427?v=glance&s=books)
Do you guys/gals know this book? And the author? Í´ve never heard nothing about him.

Cheers, Luke

olivier georges

11-29-2002, 12:37 PM

hi,
i think all these books will be on my shelf soon :)

Olivier.

derelict

11-29-2002, 02:59 PM

hai... we are animator! a n i m a t o r! not programmers...

ok, i'll buy one too. :rolleyes:

SheepFactory

11-29-2002, 04:39 PM

Hi David ,

Thanks for releasing this book , it fills a big gap in the maya training materials.

I have a question:

i am an absolute newbie when it comes to programming , Can I pick up your book and understand whats going on inside and learn from it , or should I read up more on programming before I pick up this book.

Best,

A|i

phatgroovn

11-29-2002, 04:42 PM

Yeah, as sheep stated...what level is this book at?

I have pretty good programming skills in scripting with actionscript and Lingo, and a lil bit of MEL, but have never gotten close to C++

Will i be lost?

Array

11-29-2002, 04:48 PM

wow I looked at the Bio...VERY impressive stuff......I wish i could be where david is in a few years. heheh

Phatgroovn- have you ever been to scribble jam in cinncinnati?

dmeyer

11-29-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Array
wow I looked at the Bio...VERY impressive stuff......I wish i could be where david is in a few years. heheh

Phatgroovn- have you ever been to scribble jam in cinncinnati?

Nope. What is it?

Array

11-29-2002, 05:02 PM

scribble jam is somewhat of a hip hop festival. people come there from all across the country to compete in breaking, popping, emcee, and dj battles. as well as to create some amazing wall art. I personally made my pilgrimage down there during the summer of 2001.

quick fact:

Eminem competed at scribble jam the summer he got his record album. He lost to emcee J.U.I.C.E. from chicago :applause: embarassing right?

percydaman

11-29-2002, 06:19 PM

no reason for embarrassment...some days your feelin the flow, and somedays you aint. Besides...who's the rap superstar and who isn't?

danyrey

11-29-2002, 06:49 PM

Back on topic ;) :

Originally posted by dgould
Thanks for the support. I'd love to hear feedback from everyone once they've read it. Also any feedback about the website would be much appreciated.

All the best with your Maya programming!

The book looks promising :thumbsup:
Is there a Table of Contents lying around somewhere? I haven't found it at your or the publishers website.

:airguitar :beer: :buttrock:

Array

11-29-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by percydaman
no reason for embarrassment...some days your feelin the flow, and somedays you aint. Besides...who's the rap superstar and who isn't?

yeah....but theres other people out there who deserve albums a lot more than Eminem does. Slug, ADM, brother Ali, Jin, and J.U.I.C.E. all come to mind.

Are3D

11-29-2002, 08:45 PM

After all the sh*t eminem grew up with and dealt with his whole life you don’t think he deserves an album. Why do u think he is so pissed off? He has awesome lyrical talent and a unique style. If you ever heard his very first published album you would know that.

lildragon

11-29-2002, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by olivier georges
hi,
have you seen the david gould's bio ? incredible.... :applause: this guy is an alien... :buttrock:

Olivier.

AMen to that! my gawd he can't be from this world :surprised Bravo David! you have a very very rare talent

salud

dgould

11-29-2002, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Sheep Factory
Hi David ,

i am an absolute newbie when it comes to programming , Can I pick up your book and understand whats going on inside and learn from it , or should I read up more on programming before I pick up this book.

Best,

A|i

The book is divided into several sections. The first explains how Maya works internaly, i.e. how the Dependency Graph (the heart of Maya) works. The second section covers MEL and assumes you have only a *very* basic understanding of programming. It starts off very gently then progresses to cover more interesting uses and examples of MEL. The last section covers C++ and this assumes that you have a basic understanding of C++. It also starts of with easier examples then steadily progresses to cover almost every type of plugin possible. A relative newbie to programming will still get a lot out of the book, while a more advanced programmer will also have enough detail to satify their needs also.

So the book doesn't teach general programming but is focused on Maya programming. There are a great many books that already cover general programming. I've included a list of recommended books for learning general programming on the website.

dgould

11-29-2002, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by phatgroovn
Yeah, as sheep stated...what level is this book at?

I have pretty good programming skills in scripting with actionscript and Lingo, and a lil bit of MEL, but have never gotten close to C++

Will i be lost?

There is entirely separate sections on MEL and the C++ API. Since you have a basic understanding of programming I'm sure that you'll cover the MEL section very quickly. It includes basic, as well as, more advanced MEL topics. Each topic is covered in detail with plenty of examples to guide you. Each line of MEL script is explained in detail.

The C++ section provides source code and a detailed description of how to write plugins. It is possible that someone who has never programmed before could compile the plugins and run them. I also explain each line of the source code in detail. That being said if you have a basic understanding of C++ you will then be able to write your own plugins.

dgould

11-29-2002, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by danyrey
Back on topic ;) :

Is there a Table of Contents lying around somewhere? I haven't found it at your or the publishers website.

:airguitar :beer: :buttrock:

Good suggestion. I will update my website with the table of contents. Look for it soon.

dgould

11-29-2002, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by danyrey
Back on topic ;) :

Is there a Table of Contents lying around somewhere? I haven't found it at your or the publishers website.

:airguitar :beer: :buttrock:

I just added the complete table of contents. Revisit www.davidgould.com

danyrey

11-29-2002, 11:50 PM

:thumbsup: :applause: :thumbsup:

Thx alot

bentllama

11-29-2002, 11:57 PM

Thanks again David...this really should help stop my "MEL" nightmares...now instead of chasing me in nightmares, MEL will embrace me in flowery fields so we can dance till... uh... nevermind...

:beer: :thumbsup:

renderdrunk

11-30-2002, 02:19 AM

book shmook...when is illustrate! going to be available for maya users????

ambient-whisper

11-30-2002, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by renderdrunk
book shmook...when is illustrate! going to be available for maya users????

theres something more important at hand:) like making LOTR kick even more buttocks.

btw. dave: that table of contents helps. im not planning to learn to make tools any time soon. but the "underworld" of mel, how it works..and how to apply the knowledge to make good use of it.:)
looks like the right book for me ( good timing too )
im not too fond of the Mel Docs that came with maya.
too brief in my opinion. especially on such a large subject.

hope this book covers the gaps.

too bad that the animator book that bent mentioned is comming out 1.5 months from now :/

MaDSheeP

11-30-2002, 04:41 AM

welp, i just placed my preorder for it... can't wait till it arrives =)

googlo

11-30-2002, 04:51 AM

After all the sh*t eminem grew up with and dealt with his whole life you don’t think he deserves an album.

No. If that were the requirement, many people would/ should 'deserve' albums, etc. . The irony about Eminem is that he asks for compassion and understanding while simulataneously dehumanizing other people..

DotPainter

11-30-2002, 08:36 AM

If Maya is as powerful as it is, with decent c++ skills and this book you should be able to do almost anything. I look at it like this, when you want to develop any type of graphics program, you normally try to obtain a 3rd party or maybe self developed set of low to mid level graphics libraries. These conain all of the basic graphic routines that you need along with more sophisticated ones, depending on how extensive the library is. The program is written in a high level language and combines the various routines to achieve the desired result.

With Maya, you get all of the library routines and can add more by combining existing ones! And the cool thing is that these routines range from simple to advanced! In some ways the hardest part is already done. The main thing, especially for advanced types of new functionality, is to know the algorithm that is necessary for a desired effect. Everything else is c++ and maya library routines.

Another, maybe simpler, way to look at is replacing things done manually with an automated process with inputs to tweak various parameters and have them applied the way you would if you were doing something by hand. Either way it is stilll verry nice, especially for those cg programmers who like to code algorithms......

As for Eminem, he is one of the most misogynist rappers out there. Kinda the jackass of rap, in some ways, by pushing the limits with some of his stuff. I am surprised he gets the publicity he does....... Maybe it is that angle on rap is what makes him different and popular, especially with the MTV generation.

antero

11-30-2002, 03:34 PM

I'm a 3dsmax user , but I'm thinking to switch to Maya ... I always wanted to know if Maya API is less annoying that 3dsmax API . For example to do a procedural map plugin for max we have to use 40kb of code just to initialize, I know it's automatic but it's ugly!
To do a plugin for MAYA do you need allot of initialization code??

Thanks,

Dominique

11-30-2002, 04:23 PM

Yep, this does make s me thinking of changing software,

Max doesn't even ship with a printed scripting documentation and then to find books like these mentioned, no way right now,

dgould

11-30-2002, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by DotPainter
With Maya, you get all of the library routines and can add more by combining existing ones! And the cool thing is that these routines range from simple to advanced! In some ways the hardest part is already done. The main thing, especially for advanced types of new functionality, is to know the algorithm that is necessary for a desired effect. Everything else is c++ and maya library routines.

Yes, this is exactly the right way of looking at it. Maya provides an infrastructure from which you can build your own functionality. You don't have to go through the process of designing and building geometry and animation libraries, it is all there. You just add your extensions on top. It saves you a lot of time and effort "reinventing the wheel". You can think of Maya, and similar 3D packages, as a 3D operating system that you develop applications (plugins) for.

Maya's node based system is flexible enough to allow you to use it for other purposes. One of the developers at AW even turned Maya into a 3D tetris with some simple scripts and plugins. It is that flexible!

dgould

11-30-2002, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by antero
I'm a 3dsmax user , but I'm thinking to switch to Maya ... I always wanted to know if Maya API is less annoying that 3dsmax API . For example to do a procedural map plugin for max we have to use 40kb of code just to initialize, I know it's automatic but it's ugly! To do a plugin for MAYA do you need allot of initialization code??
Thanks,

I've been developing Max plugins back when it was still called 3d studio ;) I can categorically say that a Maya plugin doesn't need as much initialization code as 3dsmax. Sorry to the Discreet guys but they are continually adding more and more complexity into the base classes that then cause a rippling effect through the entire class hierarchy. When developing a Max material you find yourself having to implement the most esoteric functions otherwise the thing won't compile. Whatsmore if you get something wrong it may crash. In practice it has been hard to debug such problems (the debug version of 3dsmax helps).

I once did a short analysis of the differences between the 3dsmax and Maya architectures. I ruffled a few feathers at the time so I'll be more careful what I say :D

googlo

12-01-2002, 12:54 AM

You can think of Maya, and similar 3D packages, as a 3D operating system that you develop applications (plugins) for.

Yeah that's exactly what I thought when I started to learn maxscript. It's like a 3d playground. I don't know anything about C++ programming but the scripting part is actually kind of fun.

I dont' know anything about other 3d programs, but is it possible to just say "use this mathematical formula or alogirithm to generate 3d noise" like for a map or volumetric effect in Maya or Max without having to worry about constructing all the rest?

dgould

12-01-2002, 01:18 AM

Since there is a lot of interest in the cover art for the book I've decided to post a simplified version (no large text) on the website www.davidgould.com This version has the artwork for both the front and back pages as well as the spine.

Enjoy!

dgould

12-01-2002, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by googlo
I dont' know anything about other 3d programs, but is it possible to just say "use this mathematical formula or alogirithm to generate 3d noise" like for a map or volumetric effect in Maya or Max without having to worry about constructing all the rest?

Unfortunately both packages require you to prepare the plugin, i.e. initialization, deinitialization, function definitions, etc. Fortunately Maya requires less than Max.

It is ironic that if you look at almost all plugins the amount of code that does the "real work" is maybe only 10% of the all the code. The other 90% is there for infrastructure.

What is sounds like is that you want to develop shaders. In renderman defining these is very simple. While Entropy existed you could write renderman shaders quickly then render them in Max. Unfortunately none of the main packages support a simplified shader language, not withstanding Cg shaders, though some are working towards that goal.

googlo

12-01-2002, 01:57 AM

Yeah. I was curious about that generic kind of possibility with things like spacewarps in Max or other programs. Max is just what I'm familiar with. I wish there was like a generic spacewarp container that had all the necessary infrastructure there to make it work and all you would have to do to make your own custom spacewarp would be to give it your own vector field equations and not have to worrry about the rest.

It's cool you made this book for Maya. There is programming book out for Max too, kind of dated not very indepth either in my opinion.

how come these companies don't produce any high quality books orientated specficially to programming and programming solutions within their own respective packages. It almost seems like a huge area of these applications that is pretty much ignored for some reason. Why is that?

jtk77

12-01-2002, 02:04 AM

David you rock. I always admired the fact that you communicate with the community as well as put out great info like this.
You get a funny icon.

:buttrock:

beaker

12-01-2002, 04:35 AM

>>I once did a short analysis of the differences between the 3dsmax and Maya architectures. I ruffled a few feathers at the time so I'll be more careful what I say

I was actually going to ask about this earlier since you have alot of exposure on both sides of the fences(plus many other fences, prman, entropy, etc..), but didn't want to open up a big can of worms like you mentioned. Most opinions like this usually are one sided because people get so confortable with one side and change is always hard to deal with. People think bad of an api/scripting language simply because it's different from what they are used to. The opinion usually has nothing to do with which is better.

Anyways, do you have a link to that post you mentioned? I would really like to know the plus and minuses of both from a more neutral stance(minuses of maya too).

antero

12-01-2002, 03:33 PM

Thanks for the answer ...
I asked someone to give me the source code for a procedural map plugin for Maya and compared it with a the source code from a procedural for max.
What I realized was that Maya source code is a lot simpler/short than Max 3.0 one !
I will start to learn MAYA and then buy this book ... I know very well Maxscript but MEL gives more power from what I read. There are certain things that you can't do with MAXScript, which is really annoying ... like turning off user input for some commands etc ...

thanks again,

dgould

12-01-2002, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by googlo
I wish there was like a generic spacewarp container that had all the necessary infrastructure there to make it work and all you would have to do to make your own custom spacewarp would be to give it your own vector field equations and not have to worrry about the rest.

The 3dsmax SDK comes with a Visual C++ Wizard that allows you to setup many of the plugins quite quickly. It creates a "skeleton plugin" that you then fill in. In most cases I found it was a little too skeletal. What I typically do is look through the example plugins and find one that is relatively close to what I'm trying to achieve then copy it. I then remove all the extraneous parameters, etc and then modify it to my needs. This seems to be the fastest way yet to get a new plugin up and running.

[/B]how come these companies don't produce any high quality books orientated specficially to programming and programming solutions within their own respective packages. It almost seems like a huge area of these applications that is pretty much ignored for some reason. Why is that? [/B]

I really don't know. I know that Maya has master class material, etc though I don't know how much cover programming. Both Maya and Max do provide all the reference material you need to program but unfortunately they don't give you the basics. Never do they explain *why* you have to do certain things. More importantly they never discuss how to *design* plugins. In my opinion it is extremely important to understand the design philosophy of a package in order to write plugins that work efficiently. The reference material the packages provide is great, it is the understanding of the what and why that is missing. This is what I'm really hoping to provide with my book. I want the reader to understand why they must design their plugins in a particular way in order for them to work within the design philosophy of Maya. Understanding how Maya works under the covers goes a long way to preventing many nights of frustrated programming. I've found that even many experienced Maya programmers are missing this core understanding.

dgould

12-01-2002, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by beaker
>>Anyways, do you have a link to that post you mentioned? I would really like to know the plus and minuses of both from a more neutral stance(minuses of maya too).

It was on highend3d.com some years ago. I can't seem to connect to highend3d.com right now. Just try searching for my name in the Maya forums. I didn't post that often so it should be relatively easy to find.

dgould

12-01-2002, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by antero
I know very well Maxscript but MEL gives more power from what I read. There are certain things that you can't do with MAXScript, which is really annoying ... like turning off user impute for some commands etc ...

To be honest I've never used maxscript since I find it easier to write a C++ plugin. I never liked the maxscript syntax, but this is a personal preference.

It is important to understand that in both packages all the data is stored in C++ data structures, whether it be internal to the package or inside a 3rd party plugin. The scripting languages (MEL and MAXscript) must be provided with some means of accessing that data. The advantage of the Maya design is that all data is accessible as node attributes. This means that there is a unified method of getting and setting this data (getAttr and setAttr). Unfortunately in Max, until recently, there was no standard way of storing and retrieving data. In the early days data was stored in parameter blocks that were difficult for Maxscript to make sense of. This was improved so that if you store data in the "new" parameter blocks then Maxscript can gain access. I still feel however that the whole parameter block system is overly complex and convoluted. If you have ever created one you'll see that their ... (multiple parameter list) constructor contravenes almost every C++ programming convention. This constructor alone can cause many countless hours of frustration.

To be fair however the MEL language has many shortcomings also. The matrix and vector classes are almost useless since you can't easily get data into and out of attributes as these types. The vector class also has some very weird and convoluted semantics when it comes to component access (x,y,z). Anyway, I won't go on here. I've tried to cover all these areas in the book since MEL can also provide many hours of frustration if you don't know its pitfalls and other hidden issues.

Overall, I prefer MEL to MAXscript since it is much closer to C in syntax. The goal of any scripting language must be that it is fast to write programs. Being close to C means that many existing programmers can quickly write scripts. MAXscript is not like any other language syntax so it mean learning a new language syntax from scratch.

unsane1

12-09-2002, 08:43 PM

Doesn't it seem wierd to buy a book on programming Maya plugins from an author who only sells 3DS plugins?

Now, mind you I'll still be buying this book (if it ever ships), but I just thought it was disappointing that David hasn't got Illustrate out for Maya.

Cheers...

beaker

12-09-2002, 08:58 PM

>>Doesn't it seem wierd to buy a book on programming Maya plugins from an author who only sells 3DS plugins?

Have you looked at his bio? Looks like he has done plenty of maya work: Disney feature animation, Weta, etc...

dgould

12-10-2002, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by unsane1
Doesn't it seem wierd to buy a book on programming Maya plugins from an author who only sells 3DS plugins?

Now, mind you I'll still be buying this book (if it ever ships), but I just thought it was disappointing that David hasn't got Illustrate out for Maya.

Cheers...

It is true that I haven't commercialized any of the Maya plugins I've written since I was working as an employee for companies (Disney Feature Animation, Exluna, and Weta Digital) the past couple of years. Since I'm an employee the company owns the source code and resulting plugin. Just to let you know, while at Disney I taught classes on Maya programming. These many years of in-house Maya development and teaching resulted in the book.

Concerning Illustrate! for Maya, I understand your disappointment. Never fear, I will do it. Development has been postponed until I can devote some free time to it. It is a project that is dear to me so I want to make sure it is done right. Thanks for you interest and especially your patience. I can assure you that the wait will be worth it.

derelict

12-10-2002, 02:31 AM

by any chance your book be published sometime this year? i mean will it ever be in amazon b4 xmas?

dgould

12-10-2002, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by derelict
by any chance your book be published sometime this year? i mean will it ever be in amazon b4 xmas?

The book will be released around the 16th of December so it will be available in less than a week.

derelict

12-11-2002, 12:30 AM

cheers!:beer:

unsane1

12-18-2002, 12:41 AM

can't wait for the book, and illustrate David, great work! hope you didn't mind the friendly harassing. I have complete faith in you as a Maya expert!

ambient-whisper

12-19-2002, 03:52 PM

so any idea when this boom will be published? im really anxious to read this thing.

dgould

12-19-2002, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by ambient-whisper
so any idea when this boom will be published? im really anxious to read this thing.

It has just come off the printers and is being sent to the warehouse this week. It should start being delivered next week. Amazon won't list it as "published" until it arrives in their warehouse which shouldn't be long.

mind

12-19-2002, 09:03 PM

Hi David...well man...this is the book I was definetely looking for...from what I can see in the table of contents (at your site), it covers most of the aspects I've always found intringuing in the Maya architecture since, though I use Maya since it's first version, I've never been a hard core programmer. But Mel and C++ always helped in my tasks as an fx animator. As a matter of fact there are certain effects that are almost impossible to accomplish without some sort of coding even with all the best GUI functionality provided by the app developer (dynamics...particles, particles, I hate'em, I love'em)

Your book is a welcome addition to my bookshelf and I think it will certainly increase the expertise of many ¨non-programmer¨ Maya artists to achieve better and more challenging content by extending Maya´s functionality. :thumbsup:

so you worked on TTT eih?! Well if you are going to stay for the Return of The King we'll probably meet since I'm heading to Wellington by the end of February next year! I actually came from there 3 months ago and I'm dying to come back!

Hopefully We'll be work-mates.:)

Cheers!

MaDSheeP

12-20-2002, 12:19 PM

I am jealous of you Mind ;)

Ah well, I have to go to school first...

Someday... :)

I can't wait for my copy of this book to arrive, and gook luck on Return of The King guys!

dgould

12-20-2002, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by mind
Your book is a welcome addition to my bookshelf and I think it will certainly increase the expertise of many ¨non-programmer¨ Maya artists to achieve better and more challenging content by extending Maya´s functionality.

Thanks for the kind words. The book has material that is definitely needed to cover the gaps in Maya's documentation. It is also a book that I wrote for myself since I'm always writing notes on paper. The book represents the accumulation of a lot of notes ;-)

so you worked on TTT eih?! Well if you are going to stay for the Return of The King we'll probably meet since I'm heading to Wellington by the end of February next year! I actually came from there 3 months ago and I'm dying to come back!

Yep, I'll be working on The Return of the King. I will be down there in early February. When you get settled drop by. I sit opposite Sven on the "red floor".

mind

12-22-2002, 01:07 AM

Sure I'll do!:D

MaDSheeP

12-29-2002, 11:42 PM

:bounce: any reason why Amazon haven't recieved their shipment yet? i'm anxus.. it has been a long long time since i have done any type of programming.. and i loved it while i was doing it... would be awesome to use programming in maya.. :)

bentllama

12-30-2002, 12:18 AM

I am wondering the same thing MadSheep.

dgould

12-30-2002, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by MaDSheeP
:bounce: any reason why Amazon haven't recieved their shipment yet? i'm anxus.. it has been a long long time since i have done any type of programming.. and i loved it while i was doing it... would be awesome to use programming in maya.. :)

The book has been printed and is now being shipped to Morgan Kaufmann's warehouse. It will be shipped to Amazon's warehouse very soon. Until Amazon has it in its warehouse they don't list the book as "published". I'll have a more precise estimate this week.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

dmeyer

12-30-2002, 01:46 AM

Amazon is listing estimated ship as January 6. :buttrock:

MaDSheeP

12-30-2002, 03:00 AM

woohoo!

UPS is such a grand thing... :)

bentllama

12-30-2002, 03:58 AM

Thanks for the update Dave.

unsane1

12-30-2002, 01:24 PM

David, are you on any of the API developer lists? If so, which one might I ask?

Thanks

dgould

01-01-2003, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by unsane1
David, are you on any of the API developer lists? If so, which one might I ask?

Thanks

I'm on Highend 3D's Maya Developers list though I rarely have time to contribute. I'm also a moderator on their Rendering Theory List.

amckay

01-03-2003, 03:03 AM

Now the books out, anyone got any reviews of it? :)

I'm a psuedo wannabe TD when it comes to MEL, I'm very keen to get into it but obviously don't want to nag my peers, and would love to find a good book that isn't too over my head.

So anyone read it yet?

Allan

bentllama

01-03-2003, 03:25 AM

It is still listed by AMAZON as being "Not Published Yet"...man, I cannot take it anymore...the anticipation is killing me! :)

:beer:

tropistic

01-03-2003, 03:48 AM

I got an email from Barnes & Noble this morning confirming that my copy had shipped!

Jay

bentllama

01-03-2003, 03:49 AM

Damn you tropistic!!! :annoyed:

:beer:

ambient-whisper

01-06-2003, 07:13 AM

:) mine shipped too:)

dmeyer

01-06-2003, 11:40 AM

woohoo Amazon is shipping. :bounce:

svenip

01-07-2003, 12:29 PM

does someone know a german bookseller which can deliver the book ???

Conni

01-07-2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by svenip
does someone know a german bookseller which can deliver the book ???

Hi,
I have ordered the book at amazon.de several days ago. The availability was in 1 - 2 weeks. Now you can't order the book anymore - strange.
But this happened to me several weeks ago, too. Before I could preorder the book, the book was no more available.
I would say you should often visit amazon.de and see if they have the book in stock again!
-Cornelius

beaker

01-07-2003, 08:02 PM

someone just posted this on highend:

"Well i ordered the book from amazon just before cristmas (david gould), and just recived a letter that says i will be delayed for another 4-6 weeks. but i looking forword to seeing it."

Did anyone get their copy yet? I was about to order it, but if its going to be another 4-6 weeks I might as well wait.

dmeyer

01-07-2003, 08:06 PM

I havent got it yet, but it is en route (tracking number n all).

:p

tropistic

01-07-2003, 11:38 PM

My order from Barnes & Noble for *both* the Mel books arrived yesterday. Damn work, just had time to open the box...

Jay

dgould

01-07-2003, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by beaker
someone just posted this on highend:

"Well i ordered the book from amazon just before cristmas (david gould), and just recived a letter that says i will be delayed for another 4-6 weeks. but i looking forword to seeing it."

Did anyone get their copy yet? I was about to order it, but if its going to be another 4-6 weeks I might as well wait.

I will contact the publisher and see what is happening regarding the availability of the book.

bentllama

01-08-2003, 04:39 AM

i just ordered both straight from the publisher [lucky they have the same publisher] and i still have to call the publisher to track things down...

...it is like the books do not want to find my sweaty grip! :)

soon my precioussssss, soooooon! :twisted:

dmeyer

01-08-2003, 05:08 AM

Just got both of em today via Amazon. :bounce:

bentllama

01-08-2003, 05:12 AM

dmeyer,

I would love to know how...especially with the conflicting info that is posted in this thread about amazon orders...

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

RiBRaT

01-08-2003, 06:25 AM

Hi David,

From one fellow RMIT allumi to another;

Will your book be available to buy off the shelf in Australia?

Borders Books, McGills??

Last time I oreded a book from Amazon, it took four months (which was in stock at the time of ordering mind you).

Regards,
RibRaT

svenip

01-08-2003, 07:28 AM

so i contacted amazon and they said that the book will not be shipped anymore. they don't get it in their shop (strange, are there only 5 books printed ?).

so i will try barnesandnobles to contact and look if they can deliver to good old germany:hmm:

nendo

01-08-2003, 08:11 AM

Hi !

I ordered both from Amazon on december 10 ,
and they have been shipped on january 5 (via International Shipping). I am waiting !

dmeyer

01-08-2003, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by bentllama
dmeyer,

I would love to know how...especially with the conflicting info that is posted in this thread about amazon orders...

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

Dont know, I ordered on Dec 29 and they both arrived yesterday. There is a distribution center about 100 miles from my place though - don't know how their distribution network works but that may have something to do with it.

MaDSheeP

01-08-2003, 01:59 PM

my copy should arrive today.. woohoo =)

that is... if it has left the Illinois mail processing center...

it sat there all yesterday... pff heh

Conni

01-08-2003, 05:22 PM

A bit off topic:
I have ordered the Maya Programming book, too, but I'm still waiting. But I would like to know, how is the other MEL scripting book, MEL scripting for Maya animators, because I'm playing with the thought to order it as well.
Do both books have almost the same MEL topics or is it better to have both books in your bookshelf, especially when you want to get deeper into MEL programming?
Thanks for your replies.
-Cornelius

Matt Leishman

01-08-2003, 09:24 PM

I was just at www.mkp.com looking for that very book Conni, and I couldn't find it anywhere, even after doing an ISBN search on their website. I hope they are still publishing it. Who knows tho.

dgould

01-09-2003, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by bentllama
dmeyer,

I would love to know how...especially with the conflicting info that is posted in this thread about amazon orders...

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

I have contacted Amazon. They are indeed shipping the book so if you order it you will receive it shortly. There is no 4 to 6 week wait. The problem is that their website shows the book as "not yet published" when in fact it is. They have confirmed this and will be updating their website soon.

Thanks for your patience.

dgould

01-09-2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by svenip
so i contacted amazon and they said that the book will not be shipped anymore. they don't get it in their shop (strange, are there only 5 books printed ?).

so i will try barnesandnobles to contact and look if they can deliver to good old germany:hmm:

I don't know why they told you that. Amazon is shipping the book and there have been thousands of copies printed.

Can you give me the email address of the person you contacted? I'll follow up with them and see what the misunderstanding is.

dmeyer

01-09-2003, 12:38 AM

Began reading it today, not far enough to give any in depth thoughts but its lookin pretty good so far.

It seems (after the first couple chapters, at least) to be exactly what is needed, a guide that starts with a solid foundation on what and why, instead of spouting off recipes for scripts cookbook style - in which case one learns the ingredients but not why they go in.

Prior programming experience seems to be of course a big help - but doesnt seem mandatory as long as you have some logical thinking skills.
At least, I'm pretty versed with scripting languages (lingo and actionscript, and some MEL) but have never touched C++, and im moving quickly through the book.

Lookin good so far, dgould :thumbsup:

dgould

01-09-2003, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by RiBRaT
Hi David,

From one fellow RMIT allumi to another;

Will your book be available to buy off the shelf in Australia?

Borders Books, McGills??

Last time I oreded a book from Amazon, it took four months (which was in stock at the time of ordering mind you).

Regards,
RibRaT

I will contact the publisher and find out what the best way of buying the book in Australia is. Regarding Amazon, I've ordered books to be delivered to Australia and they have usually arrived within a week. You may want to try ordering again from them. With the tracking information you can usually get accurate information as to how much longer you'll wait.

dgould

01-09-2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by sithwarlord
I was just at www.mkp.com looking for that very book Conni, and I couldn't find it anywhere, even after doing an ISBN search on their website. I hope they are still publishing it. Who knows tho.

Go to www.mkp.com and then click on the Bookstore link. Type in Complete Maya Programming into the search field. You will then be able to purchase the book.

International orders:
http://www.elsevier-international.com/catalogue/title.cfm?ISBN=1558608354

Matt Leishman

01-09-2003, 03:21 AM

hey david, I currently have your book (great work by the way). The book I was referring to in my previous post was Mel Scripting for Maya Animators. When I followed the link you posted in the previous post it took me here:

http://www.bhusa.com/mk/us/subindex.asp?maintarget=&isbn=&country=United+States&srccode=&ref=&subcode=&head=&pdf=&basiccode=&txtSearch=&SearchField=&operator=

and this page didn't have a "bookstore" link for me to follow. And then when I did a search in the available search field for either your book, or the one I mentioned above, neither show up as being in their current catalog. Kinda frustrating, when I've already got your book from them, and now they don't have it listed in their catalog, or the other book which is advertised in many places as being in their catalog as well. Oh well, I've contacted their support team, and hopefully they can help straighten this whole mess out. thanks for the help though.

ambient-whisper

01-09-2003, 06:29 PM

arrived not too long ago. exactly as amazon said it would. good stuff.

bentllama

01-09-2003, 06:30 PM

I ordered the book [both books actually] from the publisher [via the bhusa link] and got free shipping...

Thank you for your order! The shipping and handling fees have been waived because you ordered online with a valid credit card. Your order shipped from our warehouse on January 8, 2003, and will be delivered in 3-5 business days via Airborne Express.

I ordered on the 4th or 5th I think...

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

bentllama

01-14-2003, 04:54 AM

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

I got my 2 MEL books today!

...at first glance they seem to cover alot!

Thanks alot Dave for creating such a great resource...time to go back in and tidy my MEL now!

:beer:

[but as with any code books, I wish I had them in electronic format so I can cut and paste script samples...but David did make files available on his website! :D]

amckay

01-14-2003, 04:57 AM

Awesome so now that everyone's got theirs, they're easy to follow? I'm a newb when it comes to mel pretty much, I write a lot of particle code and such but actual plugins I'd have no clue.

Guess I better grab my badass self a copy ;)

MaDSheeP

01-14-2003, 05:19 AM

i haven't had a single moment to sit down with it since i got it...

soon tho :)

Mikkel Jans

01-14-2003, 10:03 AM

Im i the only one who haven't got it yet :sad:

svenip

01-14-2003, 10:12 AM

no your'e not :annoyed:

asked in the bookstore. answer "yes we can deliver but it can take 2 weeks to 2months".

wow, what a specific one. does someone know a european internet bookstore which can definitly deliver the book ?

goosh

01-14-2003, 06:46 PM

I just got it last night!!!

I'm reading through it at the moment. It's great!!!

I really like the way that David explains the way that Maya works internally.
But I just started reading it.. and haven't got to the code yet... :) can't wait!

Goosh

mark_wilkins

01-16-2003, 03:44 AM

Hi David!! :wavey:

I'm one of the authors, with Chris Kazmier, of "MEL Scripting for Maya Animators."

For those of you curious about the differences between our books:

Both cover the MEL language in the first half, and the outlines are pretty similar, though our styles of presentation are somewhat different.

David's book goes on to discuss the API in the second half while Chris and I use that space to present a bunch of detailed examples of how to use MEL and expressions in effects animation and character rigging.

One important thing to note if you're familiar with 3DS Max is that MEL is more deeply rooted in Maya's structure, and there's more you can do with it. Thus, lots of things you might use a a plug-in to do in Max can be done in MEL or with an expression or two.

However, the API becomes critical when you're trying to do something that's computationally intensive, if you want to make your own node types, or if you want to create your own shaders. It's not that frequently that I come across stuff that really shouldn't be done in MEL, but when I do, there's really no other way than to write a plug-in.

If you're really serious about Maya, you'd be best off with both books. I guarantee you that MK would not have released both in the same month if they had substantially the same content. Fortunately, for these kinds of books, both are cheap!! :)

Both books' tables of contents are up on their respective websites:

Complete Maya Programming:
www.davidgould.com/Books/

MEL Scripting for Maya Animators:
www.melscripting.com

-- Mark

P.S. I hope that one day someone glows over my C.V. like that!! :D

bentllama

01-16-2003, 05:25 AM

Right now, I am REALLY enjoying both books!

Nice to see you here on cgtalk Mark! Welcome...

mark_wilkins

01-16-2003, 05:46 PM

Thanks! I'm just amazed that this forum existed and I hadn't known about it until recently.

-- Mark

Conni

01-16-2003, 06:05 PM

Yeah, you all conviced me. I ordered the second book "Mel scripting for animators", too.
I can hardly wait any longer, but Amazon Germany will ship them in 1 or 2 weeks! :annoyed:

-Cornelius

dgould

01-16-2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by RiBRaT
Will your book be available to buy off the shelf in Australia?

Borders Books, McGills??

I have more information about where the book will be available in Australia . It will be available as of next week from larger bookstores such as Borders and Dymocks (main stores) and specialist computer bookstores. It is also available directly from the Elsevier Australia sales office. Our Customer Service number is Freecall: 1 800263 951 or Fax: (02) 9517 2249 or email: service@elsevier.com.au

amckay

01-16-2003, 10:47 PM

Awesome! Just the question I was pondering ;)
Borders it is then, looking forward to picking up a copy!

RiBRaT

01-17-2003, 05:42 AM

Hi David,

Thanks for letting me know where it can be bought in OZ!

I'll be looking for it this weekend.

regards,
RiBRaT....:buttrock:

Conni

01-22-2003, 08:20 PM

Hi folks,
today I checked Amazon Germany, they can order "Maya Programming" again within 1 or 2 weeks.
However, they cancelled my order "Mel scripting for Maya animators". They say it's not published anymore. Now I ordered it from the Mayersche Buchhandlung (www.mayersche.de).
Perhaps it is of interest.

-Cornelius

mark_wilkins

01-22-2003, 09:14 PM

I've contacted the publisher about this and they're looking into it. They assure me that the book is available all over Europe at this time.

In the meantime, MEL Scripting for Maya Animators is still available from Amazon in the U.S. and is still *listed* as being available from Amazon.de. I'm not sure why you would have received that e-mail, but the book is all over the place and is shipping in quantity. :-)

-- Mark

amckay

01-22-2003, 10:15 PM

Mark, when's the mel scripting for animators coming out in Australia? any idea ?? :)

mark_wilkins

01-22-2003, 10:34 PM

Not sure. www.elsevier.com.au says the publication date is January, 2003, and it's available for order there, but it's probably cheaper to order it from Amazon.com in the U.S.

-- Mark

svenip

01-31-2003, 08:02 AM

so as i got my copy of the book from david and i'm pushing me through this at the moment i wanna write a little comment on that.

at generally, the book is very good and definitly worth the money.

now to the parts.

i really, really, really like the first part that gives informations about the structure and the push and pull modell of maya. some things i have already known, but the description of the model and some other parts are really necessary if you wanna programm, and david did a really good job on that. the part about the MEL Scripting is good too. Even if i wrote (and still write) a lot of Scripts i could take some necessary infos out that. there were times than i pushed my head and said to me ("damn, if i had known that before") :).

now to the API Part. Very Good too. everything is clearly described etc. but be aware, if you have no experience with C++ or it will get hard for you. in my case i have, so it was the right mixture and good detail. the only negative points that came to my mind where, that the examples are not packaged with the book. first night i was sitting home and read "now open the file ....", also then i got to the next plugin which is printed only parts, i had to reconstruct from the parts of the first. so i had to download. that might be ok, but as i said in the first night home, without internet i was stucked :). the second thing (but that might be only for me) is that i really like to retype all the code for myself into the editor line by line. so it would be better if where would be an appendix with the codes completely. now i have to open another editor and switch to do this. i like to retype from books, because it helps me learning and understanding.

so david did a really good job writing the book and i'm looking forward for the next one, and will head now to programm my own plugin that i had so long in my mind.

thnx david

Luddy

01-31-2003, 04:15 PM

thisIsTheBookWeAreUsingInMyMelScriptingClass;

dgould

02-03-2003, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by svenip
the only negative points that came to my mind where, that the examples are not packaged with the book. first night i was sitting home and read "now open the file ....", also then i got to the next plugin which is printed only parts, i had to reconstruct from the parts of the first. so i had to download. that might be ok, but as i said in the first night home, without internet i was stucked :). the second thing (but that might be only for me) is that i really like to retype all the code for myself into the editor line by line. so it would be better if where would be an appendix with the codes completely. now i have to open another editor and switch to do this. i like to retype from books, because it helps me learning and understanding.

Thanks for the feedback. Let me explain the motivation for providing the source code on the web. Unlike yourself(yes, it is a great way to learn!) most people don't like to have to type the code in by hand. By having it in electronic form they can compile and run the plugin immediately without having to worry about syntax errors and other bugs that they may have introduced when typing in the code. The second reason for providing it online is that any bugs or errors found can be quickly updated and distributed to everyone. There is nothing worse that reading a book then having to manually compare it against the errata, especially when it comes to source code. By subscribing to the electronic newsletter for the book you will be emailed when the source code is updated. That way you can be sure that you have the most up-to-date and stable source code files.

As a workaround you could download the source code files and then print them out. From the print outs you can then type them into an editor.

Thanks again for your kind words and I'm glad I could help.