new iMac now intel

[beaker]

new "MacBook pro"(powerbook) is intel too and a duel core.

5.6lbs. iSight, Front Row; $1999 1.67 Core Duo; 667 DDR bus, x1600; $2499 1.83GHz.

http://www.macrumorslive.com/web/
http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/10/steve-jobs-keynote-live-from-macworld-2006/

[Monty]

Gimme, gimme...:)

Hey, they just updated thier webshop... its on sale now.
http://www.apple.com/ (http://www.apple.com/)

[endless]

ah you beat me to it beaker, was just going to post that.

This is the new Yonah core I keep hearing about is it? Anyone know if it's a 32 bit or 64 bit chip? I still want to know if it'll be able to multi-boot xp/linux.


edit: found my answer - 32bit

[spmonahan]

I really want one, but I also really want to be able to run winXP - I just can't afford to buy Mac versions of all my software. The performance increase is fairly impressive as well.

[beaker]

Here are some more highlights from that page I gave the link to above:

Pro apps will be universal in March. Final Cut, Aperture, Pro. If you have the latest version, you can trade in your disc for a universal disc for $49.

iLife 06 and iWork 06 are all universal binaries, and was demoing them on an Intel machine.
Rosetta on iMac. Office runs great on Rosetta.

iLife '06:
Garageband. New podcast studio. Podcast artwork track. over 200 free jingles and effects. speech enhanccer. use iChat for remote interviews.
iWeb (ie dreamweaver or golive for newbies):
Click on button, publish to .Mac. upload it. easy.
Drag and drop zones, alignment guides, integrated with your music library.
Slideshow viewer uses AJAX technology

The iMac - built in isight camera. front row.
Same sizes. 17", 20". Same design. Same features (isight, front row, apple remote), Same price.
Intel Core Duo.
ATI x1600
10.4.4 is entirely native on Intel processor. All the applications included are universal and native on Intel.

[cold_fusion]

the new macBook Pro..... :love:

[agreenster]

Okay, so just release Maya for OSX/Intel and we'll be set.

Alias (Autodesk, cringe) are you listening?

[chadtheartist]

I really want one, but I also really want to be able to run winXP - I just can't afford to buy Mac versions of all my software. The performance increase is fairly impressive as well.

Personally I'm more concerned if Vista will run on these new Macs. Hopefully it will. Like you I don't want to buy all new software, even though I already own some Mac software that I don't even use right now. It will be nice if we can have the best of both worlds. Would make software purchases much easier to deal with, IMO.

I wonder now, though, being that Apple is going x86. How difficult is it going to be for developers to release their current x86 only software on OS X. I know some software like XSI and 3DS Max aren't limited to the x86 platform, but more so on specific OS libraries. So that will still be an issue, I think.

Interesting times ahead.

[stew]

How difficult is it going to be for developers to release their current x86 only software on OS X.
Not much easier than before. The problem is rarely the CPU differences but the differences in the operating system.

At least for the case of XSI, it could maybe work if you install Linux on your intel Mac.

[Brent Turbo]

The macBook Pro is the first Apple system since the Blue/White G3 where I've thought "oh man, they're back in the game."

Apple allowing you to run windows on the new macs would be a disaster. Think about it. Let's completely devalue our OS and imply that it's incapable of doing certain things. The mac has always been about a cohesive user experience, not being a bag of tricks. I'd recommend a windows PC if you want something that can do everything under the sun at the expense of watertight usability, and I'd recommend a mac if it lines up with what you need to do. Allowing the use of windows would be a shot in the foot for apple.

[beaker]

Allowing the use of windows would be a shot in the foot for apple.They already announced back at WWDC in June that they wouldn't prevent other operating systems like linux or windows from running on the new machines. They would only prevent osx from running on vanilla pc's.

[Para]

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2648

Semi-related, info about the processor (Intel Core Duo). Main points seem to be that it's only 32bit (so no huge renderfarms with insane amounts of ram) and the desktop part matches with AMD64 4200+ in terms of performance.

EDIT: Obligatory Wikipedia link -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core

[greyface]

A shot in the foot? Why is that? It would be more like people moving from PCs to Macs because they can run both OS X and Windows on the same computer, or people needing both windows and mac os x investing more into a mac, and dropping the PC...

I know, for instance that if Windows will run on mac, I'm selling both my current powermac and pc to get an intel mac.

[chadtheartist]

Well, being that Microsoft owns VPC now, I definitely wouldn't put it past them to go ahead and utilize that to their advantage. Personally I'd love to have both on one machine. Wether or not that is good for Apple we'll have to see.

[UrbanFuturistic]

Slideshow viewer uses AJAX technologyWouldn't that damage the screen? (http://www.expats-shoppingarcade.co.uk/household/all-purpose-cleaners/?page=0)

Anyway, what's the price comparison for a similarly specced PC (and I'm talking from a decent PC supplier, not bargain basement)?

Paul

[Fahad]

The new 20" intel iMac looks really appealing. Besides being dual core, the memory upgrade is far cheaper than the G5s.

[enygma]

Wouldn't that damage the screen? (http://www.expats-shoppingarcade.co.uk/household/all-purpose-cleaners/?page=0)

Anyway, what's the price comparison for a similarly specced PC (and I'm talking from a decent PC supplier, not bargain basement)?

Paul
Well, to get you started with pricing, the 2.0GHz Core Duo used in the 20" iMac is expected to be priced at $492 USD (http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=2663&p=6). The Asus W5F notebook (http://www.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=1011&l1=5&l2=75&l3=0) also supports the new Intel Core Duo technology. If you can find pricing on that, you can do a bit of a decent comparison. Problem is that this notebook uses intel integrated graphics rather than the Radeon X1600 in the Macbook Pro.

[stew]

I can't find much about the Asus, but the new Sony Vaio dual-core notebooks can be preordered in their web store, and in Germany the Vaio is ~EUR 1000,- cheaper than the MacBook.

edit:
Nevermind. It was a glitch on Apple's web site. The MacBook is EUR 500,- more expensive than the Vaio.

[chrisWhite]

Wake me up when OS-X runs on other machines.

Okay, so that's a bit negative, this is exciting certainly, but as someone who uses a pretty decent G5 at work I've yet to be convinced I'd buy a Mac. Maybe it's just because I prefer Avid to Final Cut and that's the only big attraction. Although, I would not mind having a seat of Motion and Shake around either. If nothing else it's a big step in the right direction.

[enygma]

I can't find much about the Asus, but the new Sony Vaio dual-core notebooks can be preordered in their web store, and in Germany the Vaio is ~EUR 1000,- cheaper than the MacBook.
Do you have a link to pricing of the Vaio site with pricing on the FE series of notebook? I could only muster up this link (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start?CategoryName=cpu_FE_Series&Dept=computers) from there store, and I don't see any pricing information on it.

The only information I could find was elsewhere where it says it supports a 160GB hard drive and a GeForce Go 7400.

[stew]

This is the URL I'm seeing in the German store:
http://shop.sonystyle-europe.com:80/SonyStyle/b2c/readshop.do?z_Forward=setDefCatalog2&url=www.sonystyle.de&SonyForward=Z_MapURL&redirected=true&nextExecute=/catalog/z_InitShopISAEntry.do&shopId=SST_DE_DE

Prices are EUR 1499,- and EUR 1649,-, both including 16% VAT.

[enygma]

Yargh. Your link expires.

[rblitz7]

Are the macs still impenetrable from viruses?!

[enygma]

I don't know if it will stonewall anything you throw at it, but it certainly hasn't had any activity recently in regards to viruses.

[stew]

If you go to sonlystyle.de and follow anything that sounds like Notebook, Computer or VAIO, you should eventually get to the FE without even speaking German.

[Beamtracer]

Apple's move to Intel processors doesn't excite me much.

I can see how a lot of people want to run Windows and Mac OS X on the same machine (which these new Apples can do), but it's not something that I will do.

At the same time, I can see it was a good commercial decision for Steve Jobs to have made.

[UrbanFuturistic]

OK, I've checked around and I found something interesting.

Now, I've found a Dell laptop that hasn't even been released yet which appears to be cheaper on face value by about $500... but let's spec this up a bit so it actually matches the MacBook Pro with the same CPU (1.83GHz)

MacBook Pro: 1.83GHz, 1Gb 667MHz DDR2 (2 DIMMS, down from 1), 100Gb SATA, ATI X1600 256Mb, 15.4inch 1440x900 15.4inch TFT, built in webcam and comes with Apples OS X 10.4. (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72901/wo/Gt3xk78INnQ02wk0Xl021m837ov/3.?p=0) $2399.00 + Tax, free shipping.

Inspiron E1705: 1.83GHz, 1Gb 667MHz DDR2 (2 DIMMS), 100Gb SATA (up from 80Gb), 256MB NVIDA GeForce Go 7800, 17inch 1600x1200 (up from 1024x768), comes with XP Pro (up from Media Center) (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&kc=ref&oc=ie1705s1&x=8&y=9) $2347.00 + $24.00 'handling fee' (shipping) + Tax.

Sooo, in a choice between a slightly larger screen and a webcam... the difference is $28.00... and you can still install Windows beside OS X in the Mac (and probably for less than Dell's prices as well).

I thought Dells were supposed to be cheap? :applause:

regards, Paul

[pgp_protector]

OK, I've checked around and I found something interesting.

Now, I've found a Dell laptop that hasn't even been released yet which appears to be cheaper on face value by about $500... but let's spec this up a bit so it actually matches the MacBook Pro with the same CPU (1.83GHz)

MacBook Pro: 1.83GHz, 1Gb 667MHz DDR2 (2 DIMMS, down from 1), 100Gb SATA, ATI X1600 256Mb, 15.4inch 1440x900 15.4inch TFT, built in webcam and comes with Apples OS X 10.4. (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72901/wo/Gt3xk78INnQ02wk0Xl021m837ov/3.?p=0) $2399.00 + Tax, free shipping.

Inspiron E1705: 1.83GHz, 1Gb 667MHz DDR2 (2 DIMMS), 100Gb SATA (up from 80Gb), 256MB NVIDA GeForce Go 7800, 17inch 1600x1200 (up from 1024x768), comes with XP Pro (up from Media Center) (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&kc=ref&oc=ie1705s1&x=8&y=9) $2347.00 + $24.00 'handling fee' (shipping) + Tax.

Sooo, in a choice between a slightly larger screen and a webcam... the difference is $28.00... and you can still install Windows beside OS X in the Mac (and probably for less than Dell's prices as well).

I thought Dells were supposed to be cheap? :applause:

regards, Paul

Going from a 15.4(1440X900) to 17(1600X1200) is only slightly larger ?
Is'nt that like 48% Larger ?

[Jozvex]

I've been thinking of getting an iMac, now I'm thinking about it even more! These look great!

Anything interesting in the keynote movie?

[beaker]

Going from a 15.4(1440X900) to 17(1600X1200) is only slightly larger ?
Is'nt that like 48% Larger ?Learn to do math. :)

[rblitz7]

I've been thinking of getting an iMac, now I'm thinking about it even more! These look great!

Anything interesting in the keynote movie?
Apart from it being really glitchy, Steve mentioned that they worked really hard to get the G5 chip in the Powerbook but it ended up that the G5 was worse in terms of power per watt and power consumption or something like that, but the Intel chip solves all that.

[UrbanFuturistic]

I'm talking the physical size (15.4" diagonal compared to 17") as opposed to the resolution (those other numbers :op) It's actually about 33.4% :banghead:

Edit: The Dell screen is 13.6"x10.2 giveing 138.72" squares while the Apple is about 13.06"x8.16" giving an area of about 104" squared.

regards, Paul

[tuna]

Anything interesting in the keynote movie?


Not unless you want to spend an hour watching Steve Jobs make podcasts and family albums.

[LiquidMetal]

So does anyone know if the OSx version of Maya will run on the intel-macs?

[cold_fusion]

So does anyone know if the OSx version of Maya will run on the intel-macs?

second that and someone know if the update 10.4.4 still problem with maya's dopeSheet = kernel panic on PowerMac/nvidia video card's

[enygma]

I'm running on OS X with the QuadroFX 4500. Give me an example of what you are trying to do and I'll let you know. I am doing the update to 10.4.4 as we speak. I'll give it a shot, and I'll also redo some benchmarks to see if there are performance gains as well.

[Schwinnz]

I cannot wait to get mine! These MacBook Pro's are just too nice.

[cold_fusion]

from alias

Maya 7.0 on Mac OS X 10.4.3
Maya 7.0 IS NOT qualified on systems using an Nvidia GF4Ti graphics cards and higher. A problem exists where the Trax editor and Dopesheet editor do not draw properly and can lead to a kernel panic. DO NOT upgrade to 10.4.3 at this time if you have an Nvidia GF4Ti graphics card or higher. We are working with Apple to get this issue resolved as soon as possible.

i'm sorry i forget tell that i haven't pro videocard -like nvidia quadro4500, my problem was with NVIDIA GeForce 6600 but now i did install 10.4.4 and everything is ok

now waiting reply's for maya running on new macBook's :love:

[cold_fusion]

double post edited

[thomaspecht]

seems apple has switched platforms at least three times in a decade now. wow, what a track record ;) what is their policy regarding what will happen to the established PPC hard- and software? will PPC soon be completely replaced and OSX on the PPC "G"-CPU's as we know it today made obsolete? any statements from apple and/or major software-vendors regarding this?
how did they do it the last time they hopped onto a new architecture?

[Beamtracer]

Funny thing. In quotes posted on Ars Technica website, both Apple and Microsoft have said they are very happy for you to run both Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows on the same Mac.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/1/10/2446

[Liutime]

These MacBook Pro's are just too nice.

[Para]

Funny thing. In quotes posted on Ars Technica website, both Apple and Microsoft have said they are very happy for you to run both Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows on the same Mac.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/1/10/2446

Apple has finally come to their senses :)

Now, what will be the pricing of OS X standalone for us who don't want to buy Apple hardware?

[stew]

Now, what will be the pricing of OS X standalone for us who don't want to buy Apple hardware?
There won't be. Don't you see they're trying what they can to make you buy their hardware? They even make it run Windows!

[maX_Andrews]

Yes apple has always been about hardware as there software has to have something to run on :). OSX86 is designed to run on an intel core just fine but im sure it's very specific about the exact core that it will run on for the specific interest of making sure that you must buy apple hardware. Now that intel has helped apple make their mobile line competitive again, that strategy should pay off well.

I think it's a VERY smartmove to allow windows to dualboot with OSX as it will garner a lot more switchers who need to run a few windows apps but prefer OSX, or those who have predominantly windows software and could not financially justify the platform switch.

[fr3drik]

Pro apps will be universal in March. Final Cut, Aperture, Pro. If you have the latest version, you can trade in your disc for a universal disc for $49.


Ah, so that's what the Shake team has been busy with lately?
Just ordered my MacBook, it looks sweet. Too bad they don't come in 12"/13" wide flavour though.

[Lone Deranger]

While the new MacBooks certainly look nice.... there are a few points with it that dissapoint me... (this is going to sound rather negative, so apologies in advance)

-Still only FW400.
-Went from Dual layer DVD burner to Single Layer burner (what's up with that???)
-Screen resolution actually is less than last PowerBook (60 pixel rows) if I remember correctly.
-Same battery as the 15" PB models.... Which means with Dual Core it probably has a much reduced operating time.
-No swivel/rotate on that iSight. Could be rather akward in certain situations.
-iSight cam has made the top edge frame of the screen really chunky and rather out of propertion esthaetically.
-ATI video card only.. Rather have nVidia. Much better for pro. 3D. Put ATI in iBook and a juicy GeForce in the Power... eh MacBook Pro.
-RF sensor hole on the front looks bad.
-Still no double mouse button. CTRL-clicking is uncomfortable with certain click combo's.
-Still the same old casing. (not necessarily a bad thing as the case is so nice.. but still.)
-Still only 2GB Ram max.

You know what.... this feels like a bit of a rush job for PR purposes to me. Apple had better come up with something more impressive come their next convention.
I'm glad I didn't sell my G4 PowerBook in anticipation for this. :/

[mummey]

While the new MacBooks certainly look nice.... there are a few points with it that dissapoint me... (this is going to sound rather negative, so apologies in advance)

-Still only FW400.
-Went from Dual layer DVD burner to Single Layer burner (what's up with that???)
-Screen resolution actually is less than last PowerBook (60 pixel rows) if I remember correctly.
-Same battery as the 15" PB models.... Which means with Dual Core it probably has a much reduced operating time.
-No swivel/rotate on that iSight. Could be rather akward in certain situations.
-iSight cam has made the top edge frame of the screen really chunky and rather out of propertion esthaetically.
-ATI video card only.. Rather have nVidia. Much better for pro. 3D. Put ATI in iBook and a juicy GeForce in the Power... eh MacBook Pro.
-RF sensor hole on the front looks bad.
-Still no double mouse button. CTRL-clicking is uncomfortable with certain click combo's.
-Still the same old casing. (not necessarily a bad thing as the case is so nice.. but still.)
-Still only 2GB Ram max.

You know what.... this feels like a bit of a rush job for PR purposes to me. Apple had better come up with something more impressive come their next convention.
I'm glad I didn't sell my G4 PowerBook in anticipation for this. :/

If it had all the features you mentioned, it would be least twice the size.

[onlooker]

I'm totally hyped up about this. I'm just waiting for the Woodcrest based PowerMacs, or what ever they decide to call them. Intel is slated to release them in Q3, but word is they are on track, and pushing for a mid Q2 release on them.

#1 Autodesk/Maya ??? I'm not real hip on that. They received so many requests to bring 3DSMax to the Mac and blatantly refused, and actually insulted the Mac user as a whole once that I really cant see myself continuing to use Maya because it is now one of their products.

#2, I'll now be able to run XSI for the first time. I'm pretty excited about that. Even though it's gong to be running under windows *throwing up profusely in the background*

Although I would still like to see XSI running under OS X. (OS/XSI) I suppose if enough of us are running it, and they get enough email we could probably see that happen. Look at how much yearly Alias was selling for OS X. 25% of all sales the first year they ported it, and it kept growing after that. That's a good chunk of revenue. Apples user base is growing out of control anyway. It's a good idea to port any App to the Mac right now I would think.

I like they way things are looking for Apple in the coming years. Heck I like looks of it right now. :applause:

[mummey]

Ah, so that's what the Shake team has been busy with lately?
Just ordered my MacBook, it looks sweet. Too bad they don't come in 12"/13" wide flavour though.

heh heh heh.... :D

[mummey]

Apple has finally come to their senses :)

Now, what will be the pricing of OS X standalone for us who don't want to buy Apple hardware?

The price of an iMac plus whatever time it takes you to shoehorn it into a "dell" PC. ;)

[stew]

You know what.... this feels like a bit of a rush job for PR purposes to me. Apple had better come up with something more impressive come their next convention.
Hardware-wise, it's pretty much the same as what all the PC makers demonstrated at CES last week, except that Apple's notebook runs OS X instead of XP and costs a bit more.

[Lone Deranger]

If it had all the features you mentioned, it would be least twice the size.

No that would be the case had we been talking about Dell. ;)

[onlooker]

The price of an iMac plus whatever time it takes you to shoehorn it into a "dell" PC. ;)


I wouldn't get your hopes up on that just yet. I heard there is an Apple only chip besides the core duo processor in the new Mac's that OS X needs to run. It may be rumor, but it could be fact too. Until it's confirmed keep guessing, but you also have to worry about other software, and updates that won't install or run on a PC. Apple software updates, and installs currently read your system, and if it's not qualified it won't install. If you do install it using an extractor program (I would know) it wont run. It will give you the same message that it gave in the attempted install then quit.

[mummey]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on that just yet. I heard there is an Apple only chip besides the core duo processor in the new Mac's that OS X needs to run. It may be rumor, but it could be fact too. Until it's confirmed keep guessing, but you also have to worry about other software, and updates that won't install or run on a PC. Apple software updates, and installs currently read your system, and if it's not qualified it won't install. If you do install it using an extractor program (I would know) it wont run. It will give you the same message that it gave in the attempted install then quit.

That's exactly why I described it as 'shoe-horning'.

[Schwinnz]

There won't be. Don't you see they're trying what they can to make you buy their hardware? They even make it run Windows!
Nah they don't make it run Windows (or Linux!). The new macs are just an illusion. It's a normal PC, which can run Apple software.

[enygma]

Although it is rumored now that at this time, it isn't a normal PC. A normal PC has a BIOS. Today, there was speculation that rather than a BIOS, the new Intel Macs will be using Intels EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) (http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/), which Windows does not support.

[Fus|on]

hey sorry if this is a stupid question, but I really would like to know what advantage the PC/Windows user has now, since mac is running on Intel.

Advantage in terms of using it for 3D work or for general purposes.

Thanks

[enygma]

At the moment, there is no particular advantage until we know for sure if you can install Windows on the new Intel Macs. We probably won't know that until next month when they start shipping.

[harlan_hill]

Although it is rumored now that at this time, it isn't a normal PC. A normal PC has a BIOS. Today, there was speculation that rather than a BIOS, the new Intel Macs will be using Intels EFI (Extensible Firmware In (http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/)terface) (http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/), which Windows does not support.


It's not even rumor, it's a fact. The intel based Mac's use EFI rather than a BIOS. There's even developer documentation for it over at the Apple developers site.

[onlooker]

At the moment, there is no particular advantage until we know for sure if you can install Windows on the new Intel Macs. We probably won't know that until next month when they start shipping.


Phil Schiller said you can install windows on the new Macs if you want that your choice, but Apple is not responsible for maintaining compatibility with your windows system, nor does Apple give windows support, or will they be distributing windows with Mac's as an option. You are your own support on that front. If you can get it, and your apps running consistently more power to you. I plan on running XSI under windows when the PowerMac is renamed, and re-released. Only XSI. I don't want nor can I think of any other PC software that I would like. Apple has a plethora of fantastic applications of their own that are divine, and the majority of major developers already write applications for OS X as it is. Other than the occasional game that I'd love to play immediately I really have no use for windows. I have a gaming console, and I plan on getting a PS3 on release date for my occasional gaming fix.

[Beamtracer]

I plan on running XSI under windows when the PowerMac is renamed, and re-released. Only XSI. I don't want nor can I think of any other PC software that I would like.
Don't forget that these Intel Macs can also run Linux. So you can have a tri-OS set-up... OS X/Windows/Linux.

So you'd have the option of running XSI under Linux on the iMac, which then wouldn't cost you any extra money (well, not unless Avid charges you for the Linux version of XSI).

[mummey]

It's not even rumor, it's a fact. The intel based Mac's use EFI rather than a BIOS. There's even developer documentation for it over at the Apple developers site.

Not just that, Windows CAN handle EFI, just not easily.

[maX_Andrews]

I'm sure Microsoft will fix the EFI issue rather soon. After all, who could say no to a sudden surge is stand-alone XP sales?

On the battery life issue, I wold expect the same or better performance as the powerbook. The battery in the macbook is 60-watts wheras the older batteries were 48-watt, and the intel processors are said to have four times the performance/power usage ratio than the G4, offsetting the 4X performance gain over the G4.

My only gripe is that the remote is IR and not RF, which make it mostly useless unless you use your powerbook like a TV. I think the remote is cool in concept because you could change songs from the other room and not have to run across the apartment during a party when some crappy song comes on. It would also be cool for PRESENTATIONS but the fact that it's IR means you'll have to keep pointing it at the front of the MacBook which is not something I want to worry about.

Overall though, I'm quite happy.

[LiquidMetal]

Looks like there wont be any XP on Intel Mac soon. (http://engadget.com/2006/01/11/no-xp-on-intel-macs-but-vista-is-good-to-go/)

[Beamtracer]

My only gripe is that the remote is IR and not RF

It also has BlueTooth built in, so that would allow other gizmos to interface with it.

[Jozvex]

"EFI was developed by Intel and allows a number of advanced features, including the ability to connect to the Internet from a command shell before the OS is loaded."

Hah, that could be pretty handy in some cases!

[JDex]

Looks like there wont be any XP on Intel Mac soon. (http://engadget.com/2006/01/11/no-xp-on-intel-macs-but-vista-is-good-to-go/)


That tastes like piss in my wheaties. :banghead:

[maX_Andrews]

vista will run fine...is vista basically longhorn?

[ReBootedOne]

*drools*
The prettiness of a mac, the beautifulness of the Mac OS, and the power of a PC... I'm in love...

-eric

[Schwinnz]

Although it is rumored now that at this time, it isn't a normal PC. A normal PC has a BIOS. Today, there was speculation that rather than a BIOS, the new Intel Macs will be using Intels EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) (http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/), which Windows does not support.
Yes it is. EFI is just another kind of bios. Old macs were Open Firmware (something like that). The rest is just the same hardware. By the way, new PCs will come with EFI too.

[Zarf]

"EFI was developed by Intel and allows a number of advanced features, including the ability to connect to the Internet from a command shell before the OS is loaded."

Hah, that could be pretty handy in some cases!

Wow...

Not to sound paranoid, but that is very very scary (and bad design) for about a zillion reasons. Security is one of them, privacy is another.

Regardless, I plan on getting an intel powermac after they are released and 'ready for general use' :)


Cheers
Xarf

[Beamtracer]

By the way, new PCs will come with EFI too.
It would be interesting to see how they go using legacy 32-bit operating systems on newer EFI hardware. I wonder if EFI will force people (who are otherwise happy with their OS) to upgrade to newer operating systems?

[Apoclypse]

Something like WINE for osx would certainly keep windows off most peoples computers. Here's what I get from this. Apple knows that they have the superior operating system, witha superior backend. MS is trying really hard to play catch up right now with Vista, which is nothing new for MS. Apple is basiclly letting the masses decide what they want to use. Trust me once users use osx for a while they will see that it is better, safer and easier to use than windows could ever be. This is the real test, all three major os's are on the same platform, who will come out on top?

I'm a linux user as well as a osx user as well as a windows user. I like to see whats over yonder. I like to try different things. My primary os is linux though, however I really like osx, even I know when my os is outclassed.

[beaker]

Something like WINE for osx would certainly keep windows off most peoples computers.Already in the works:

CodeWeaversTM Expands Developer Services, Enabling Future Windows Application Porting To Mac OS:
http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/?id=20050622

[Apoclypse]

Kicking ass.

[mistafreeze]

EFI based motherboards are already in use from other notebook vendors, those of course run windows, so its probly just a matter on time before you can make a patch for XP to dual boot.

but then again, why dual boot? when you can run virtualization
http://www.intel.com/technology/computing/vptech/
since all yonah is supposed to support this (yonah = core duo) the macbook/imac should be no exception, I wonder if their will be a command or button similar to switching between virtual desktops in linux with ctrl + alt + f1

my main concern is if maya 7 runs on the imac with no problems at all (want to see how it would be on a powerbook or macbook now) when someone gets their imac it would be nice to post if it works for you or not. As the macbook pros will not be shipping until around feb 15 thats a good amount of time to test.

as long as it runs as well, and hopefully better than on my current g4 1.5 powerbook I would definately upgrade w/o hesitation, as the powerbook is the only notebook ive owned that i could run maya on a battery with multiple apps open with no problems.

I seen at the macworld expo steve was running photoshop with no real problems, I know maya is a lot different than photoshop, but i guess time will tell!

[Srek]

but then again, why dual boot? when you can run virtualization
http://www.intel.com/technology/computing/vptech/
since all yonah is supposed to support this (yonah = core duo) the macbook/imac should be no exception

The first Core Duo generation does not support virtualisation, it is yet to come.


my main concern is if maya 7 runs on the imac with no problems at all (want to see how it would be on a powerbook or macbook now) when someone gets their imac it would be nice to post if it works for you or not.
Don't expect any CPU hungry app like Maya or CINEMA to realy run smoothely using Rosetta. It will need a native version like the ones announced by Maxon and Luxology to make this kind of app usable.

Cheers
Björn

[JDex]

The first Core Duo generation does not support virtualisation, it is yet to come.


Don't expect any CPU hungry app like Maya or CINEMA to realy run smoothely using Rosetta. It will need a native version like the ones announced by Maxon and Luxology to make this kind of app usable.

Cheers
Björn

Srek... I didn't notice back when Maxon announced C4D's universal status, is Bodypaint already universal as well?

[Srek]

Srek... I didn't notice back when Maxon announced C4D's universal status, is Bodypaint already universal as well?
Maxon announced native support for Mac Intel the day Apple announced the switch. We will have to wait for an actual release until production versions of OS X and Apple Intel systems have been available for extensive tests.
Cheers
Björn

[mistafreeze]

wow srek, thanks for the info I had no idea the new apple macbooks did not support virtualization, do you know of any intel timeline's that might suggest when that will happen?

Because i thought all the new yonahs would have them as most news sites were stating so.
have you happened to of heard anything about alias's maya making a universal binary anytime soon? Maybe these 3d apps will be similar to apples "pro" apps which they say will not work at all on the new intel macs.

thanks for your help!

[Srek]

To the best of my knowledge currently only the Pentium 672 and 662 offer virtualisation. Mobile processors with this are expected later this year.
As for Alias i have no idea, i can only talk for Maxon and we won't leave our users hanging for long.
Cheers
Björn

Edit: On second check it also the Pentium 950, 940 ,930 and 920 as well as the Xeon 7041,7040, 7030 and 7020 that support virtualisation.

[Sbowling]

I wonder now, though, being that Apple is going x86. How difficult is it going to be for developers to release their current x86 only software on OS X. I know some software like XSI and 3DS Max aren't limited to the x86 platform, but more so on specific OS libraries. So that will still be an issue, I think.

Interesting times ahead.

Ok, for the billionth time. The CPU has very little, in fact nothing to do with porting the programs. It's the OS. OXSX is not anything like Windows under the hood. If OSx is running on an Intel CPU or an IBM CPU it will make no difference in the process of porting a program.

[chadtheartist]

Well, I did mention that the OS was probably going to be an issue, did I not? My question is still valid though. Judging from your response, I assume that the architecture change won't pose an issue at all. So that's good news. I was concerned on how things like vector processing was going to port and all that. Actually I hope Mac OS software doesn't take a hit due to the lack of Altivec on the Intel chips. I know they have SIMD, but from everything I've read and heard about the x86 implementation is it's not as good as Altivec. It'll be interesting to see how Apple's software on the higher end Intel Macs compare to the higher end PPC Macs.

Sorry I missed the other 900 some odd million times it's been said already. :D

[beaker]

I know some software like XSI and 3DS Max aren't limited to the x86 platform, but more so on specific OS libraries. So that will still be an issue, I think.3dsmax is limited to x86. It wouldn't even run on Windows NT4 on the Alpha processor. 3dsmax is so tied to x86/windows that it will never run another OS/processor till it is rewritten.

[mummey]

3dsmax is limited to x86. It wouldn't even run on Windows NT4 on the Alpha processor. 3dsmax is so tied to x86/windows that it will never run another OS/processor till it is rewritten.

3dsmax at one point depended on Intel technology so much that it had trouble on AMD processors.

[mistafreeze]

a review was just posted
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/imac-coreduo.ars

sadly the information regarding real time tests with photoshop, makes me sad, they say the performance is on par with a 1ghz g4, they state it as being workable, I wonder if adobe will be releasing any universal apps anytime soon.

They also say they cannot get vista dvd to boot, or the XP dvd. I heard a while back that the media center edition supports EFI however they didnt mention getting it to boot, sadly they also did not try installing linux.


Has anyone got their imacs yet? would be nice to know what others think as well, especially in terms of using apps such as corel painter.

edit-
apparently some linux tests have failed as well,
http://forums.macnn.com/showpost.php?p=2838910

maybe when iemulator is updated to support intel macs, we can atleast run virtualization and load up linux and or windows, the conversion should be as real time as vmware, the graphics card would of course have to be emulated as well as a few other features.

[agreenster]

Sure would be nice if Alias/Autodesk (sigh) would at least issue a press release that they intend to support Intel OSX version of Maya.

[mistafreeze]

yes it would be =\ have you heard anything about adobe supporting universal binarys anytime soon?

also for those of intrest a new bootloader is being worked on for EFI support
i might drop some cash and pick up an intel mac just to see how the performance might be on a powerbook to determine if ill shell out for a new macbook pro to replace my older g4 powerbook

http://sourceforge.net/projects/elilo

[Jon A. Bell]

3dsmax at one point depended on Intel technology so much that it had trouble on AMD processors.

Nope, I think you're thinking of the DEC Alpha chip. That was a problem with the Alpha and the compiler, and how it handled max's code. The end result was that the Alpha slowed to a crawl, and it wasn't worth Autodesk's time to try to fix the code.

3ds max has always played well with AMD chips; I've run it on dual Athlon MP 2800s and (now) dual-core Athlon 64 4800s, and it's fast as hell. I haven't run Intel CPUs for my max rendering in 4 years.

-- Jon

[beaker]

No, I remember K7's had trouble with 3dsmax back in the v2&2.5 days(I think that was the version).

[stew]

(The following is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with the companies I am affiliated with.)

From what I hear, most applications will receive Universal Binaries with their next major version. A number applications are still being build with CodeWarrior anyway (in my personal experience, CodeWarrior produces faster code than Xcode).

[Srek]

To the best of my knowledge currently only the Pentium 672 and 662 offer virtualisation. Mobile processors with this are expected later this year.
As for Alias i have no idea, i can only talk for Maxon and we won't leave our users hanging for long.
Cheers
Björn

Edit: On second check it also the Pentium 950, 940 ,930 and 920 as well as the Xeon 7041,7040, 7030 and 7020 that support virtualisation.

Last information from Intel is that the core duo processors do have virtualisation built in, but as an OEM option that needs activation by the manufacturer of the system. It seems that until now no manufacturer uses this option.
It seems the Intel roadmap is behind the actual happenings here :)
Cheers
Björn

[Srek]

(in my personal experience, CodeWarrior produces faster code than Xcode).
Yes, this was true until very recently. XCode made good progress and on MacIntel it will be different again once Intel has it's own compiler ready to be used with XCode.
Cheers
Björn

[beaker]

Yes, this was true until very recently. XCode made good progress and on MacIntel it will be different again once Intel has it's own compiler ready to be used with XCode.Has anyone used the free beta's of the intel compiler for osx:
http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/eng/255716.htm

[opus13]

No, I remember K7's had trouble with 3dsmax back in the v2&2.5 days(I think that was the version).

there was a batch of weirdness that lasted for a little while. i ran max 1 and 1.2 on a 200mhz AMD chip (k6?) and never had an issue, but some AMD batches after that were flaky.

[splintah]

osx is unix based
also the mactel osx is unixbased

or more precisely bsd based

now wouldn't that mean porting maya from the linux version will be more simple ?

[stew]

now wouldn't that mean porting maya from the linux version will be more simple ?
No.

Only the very low level APIs are common (networking, process management), all the interesting stuff like GUI, (proper) file management, event handling etc are all different.

[chadtheartist]

I don't really understand your question. Are you saying that they code the Linux version of Maya first, then port it to OS X?

I would assume that the OS X version of Maya would be easier to port to Universal Binary
than porting the Linux version to Universal Binary.

[beaker]

Luckily Alias already moved to Xcode & Cocoa for maya 6.0, so it should definatly be easier for them to port. How easily though, I have no idea.

[mummey]

osx is unix based
also the mactel osx is unixbased

or more precisely bsd based

now wouldn't that mean porting maya from the linux version will be more simple ?

Nope! :D

It has very little to do with the OS, instead it has much more to do with the libraries (API's) that the program uses.

[stew]

Luckily Alias already moved to Xcode & Cocoa for maya 6.0

Not that it'd make much of a difference for users, "otool -L" tells me Maya uses the Carbon framework, not Cocoa - at least the copy of PLE 7 I have, I doubt the paid versions are much different.

[mistafreeze]

since i plan on buying the macbook pro soon to replace my powerbook g4, i bought the imac, and to my happiness, it works, and not only does it work, it works damn well, especially if this is emulation.

http://www.theartofjason.com/2006/01/maya-works-on-my-intel-imac-im-sooo.html

posted some pictures and movies. sending a movie now of me moving around and maniuplating a 600,000+ thousand plus poly guitar. so as far as im concerned im getting the macbook pro, hell photoshop cs2 runs ok too. ill update the site to show some videos when i get time, if anyone needs any render tests just email them too and ill get to work, i will not be home until 6 or so est tomorrow but after that im pretty good for the weekend.

enjoy! and fear not rosetta, for it shall set you FREE!

[Rhs_CG]

Well, I'm in San Francisco now, and played with a Dual Core iMac in the Apple Store. I installed the Silo demo, played around a little bit, and opened a model from the Silo website. Nothing spectacular about what I did, but I must say that I was kind of disappointed. Just rotating the model was slow and jerky. Here are the Specs:

Hardware Overview:

Machine Name: iMac
Machine Model: iMac4,1
CPU Type: Intel Core Duo
Number Of Cores: 2
CPU Speed: 1.83 GHz
L2 Cache (shared): 2 MB
Memory: 512 MB
Bus Speed: 667 MHz
Boot ROM Version: IM41.0039.B00
Serial Number: W86015UHU2N
SMC Version: 1.1f2s

ATI Radeon X1600:

Chipset Model: ATY,RadeonX1600
Type: Display
Bus: PCIe
VRAM (Total): 128 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x71c5
Revision ID: 0x0000
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.063
Displays:
iMac:
Display Type: LCD
Resolution: 1440 x 900
Depth: 32-bit Color
Built-In: Yes
Core Image: Supported
Main Display: Yes
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Quartz Extreme: Supported
Display:
Status: No display connected


I sure hope that the MacBook Pro is much more intuitive.


BTW, if you get the chance, head to an Apple Store and play with the big machines. I don' tknwo if I'll ever play around on a Dual G5 workhorse with 4.5GB of Ram and a 30-inch HD display. :eek:

[Beamtracer]

"otool -L" tells me Maya uses the Carbon framework, not Cocoa
I remember when Maya was first ported to OS X, they announced it was a Carbon app. It surprised me a bit that Alias didn't go with Cocoa, but I guess they had their reasons.

[beaker]

Well, I'm in San Francisco now, and played with a Dual Core iMac in the Apple Store. I installed the Silo demo, played around a little bit, and opened a model from the Silo website. Nothing spectacular about what I did, but I must say that I was kind of disappointed. Just rotating the model was slow and jerky.Silo isn't intel native yet. So of course it's going to be slow. They already said that running stuff like MS Office and other lowend apps are fine through Rosetta, but more pro apps like Photoshop are going to run slow till they are native.

[stew]

I remember when Maya was first ported to OS X, they announced it was a Carbon app. It surprised me a bit that Alias didn't go with Cocoa, but I guess they had their reasons.
There is no reason to use Cocoa here. Carbon is more suitable for cross-platform apps because it works with plain C instead of requiring ObjectiveC, and in many cases it's faster too. The only major cross-platform application I can think of that uses Cocoa and not Carbon is Skype, and their UI is a complete rewrite on the Mac (Windows and Linux versions use Qt). And from a user standpoint, it doesn't make any difference at all.

[Rhs_CG]

Silo isn't intel native yet. So of course it's going to be slow. They already said that running stuff like MS Office and other lowend apps are fine through Rosetta, but more pro apps like Photoshop are going to run slow till they are native.

That's true. I had forgotten that.:thumbsup:

[beaker]

Not that it'd make much of a difference for users, "otool -L" tells me Maya uses the Carbon framework, not Cocoa - at least the copy of PLE 7 I have, I doubt the paid versions are much different.Yea, my bad. I know they had moved to Xcode/Mach-o abi (away from CFM), but I thought they had also moved to Cocoa since there was such a huge speed increase with Maya 6.0 (3.5-5.0 were horrible). I guess moving to Mach-o was enough.

[stew]

On the PPC, MachO is actually the slower format than PEF, supposedly 10% (http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000044.php). In any case, dramatic speed increases don't come from switching the binary format or the system API. Much more likely is that at the same time as adopting Xcode, they also started using Shark/CHUD to profile their code. At least, that's how I got big speed increases under OS X.

[beaker]

That article is from the osx 10.1 days. Xcode wasn't even out yet. A lot has changed since then.

[stew]

But I doubt there were any changes to the MachO calling conventions, were there?

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