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JDex
01-05-2006, 06:44 AM
Didn't see it posted anywhere. MS puts up an official website for Vista.

Vista Unveiled (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.aspx)

Mostly the lamens, marketing, gobbeldy-gook you'd expect.

It's funny how un-performance related the performance section of the "features" is. Oooh, my PC can sleep... Oooh!

se7enthcin
01-05-2006, 06:53 AM
:sigh: another uncomplete microsoft product that we will be forced to buy to move forward in time with compatability issues. :rolleyes:

Beamtracer
01-05-2006, 06:54 AM
Some are calling it the end of the "open PC" platform. No longer can you swap hardware components freely as you once did
<<LINK>> (http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1182/what_windows_vista)

MacRonin
01-05-2006, 07:01 AM
No thanks, I think I will stay with OS X...

;^p

Fahad
01-05-2006, 07:17 AM
I'm quite excited to try the new user interface, and the whole user experience, to compare to previous windows.

Not just the GUI, but how the user interacts and uses the system.

It's been a long wait.

DanVL
01-05-2006, 07:28 AM
It cannot be that retarded, please reassure me somehow!

Saurus
01-05-2006, 08:23 AM
Window SideShow looks cool!

-Vormav-
01-05-2006, 08:27 AM
I'm actually anxious to see how some of its features work out. I thought the idea behind the external memory drive was pretty cool... :shrug:

Samo
01-05-2006, 08:35 AM
yesterday I tried Ubuntu.

Bonedaddy
01-05-2006, 08:44 AM
The extendable memory thing I'd never heard of, and sounds cool, although I question what sort of latency they'll have. I mean, Microsoft almost seems to be dictating PC design with some of these choices. That and the mini-screen for laptops makes me question what exactly they're aiming for with this release.

I wonder if the marketing campaign will boast compatibility with these technologies... that they just made up, and don't actually have any practical application.

Para
01-05-2006, 08:45 AM
Some are calling it the end of the "open PC" platform. No longer can you swap hardware components freely as you once did. <<LINK>> (http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1182/what_windows_vista)

The real choice in hardware at the moment means a choice between few big vendors (ATI or NVIDIA, Intel or AMD, Kingston or Corsair...) so I don't really see the problem - especially when a certain 5% or so of computer users have been restricted way more heavily for a very long time and they don't seem to be angsty about it.

Oh by the way, the site has some funcional problems with Opera (the title text doesn't load up correctly) but otherwise it seems to be working OK...I just had to check, the page isn't valid HTML 4.01 (9 errors) either. Heh. Oh well, I'm looking forward to Vista, this marketing stuff has never been the thing for me to get info about the product.

ThE_JacO
01-05-2006, 08:57 AM
decades of GUIs, and still no windows ghosting/bar collapsing in an MS OS.
*sigh*

Layer01
01-05-2006, 08:59 AM
whoopee
finally more restrictions, bugs and bloatware than i ever thought possible, i can't wait.

Pyke
01-05-2006, 09:18 AM
Just wondering if any of the people here who are 'complaining' about how its buggy have actually used it-or are they just mouthing off cos its 'cool' to bash Microsoft?

Samo
01-05-2006, 09:22 AM
Just wondering if any of the people here who are 'complaining' about how its buggy have actually used it-or are they just mouthing off cos its 'cool' to bash Microsoft?

Yes, is cool to bash Microsoft. :buttrock:

Cosmo
01-05-2006, 09:36 AM
well, as a Mac user i have to say they made the GUI a lot better......

and meta-data should be nice............

Beamtracer
01-05-2006, 09:39 AM
The DRM (digital rights management) in Windows Vista is not just software based, it's hardware based. That's what's going to stop people freely swapping components around.

This hardware DRM has nothing to do with preventing illegal copying of DVDs. Microsoft has made it a mandatory requirement for the operation of Windows Vista, in an attempt to freeze Linux out of the digital content market.

How is a free Linux OS going to pay Microsoft and Intel for the use of their DRM?

I don't really see the problem - especially when a certain 5% or so of computer users have been restricted way more heavily for a very long time and they don't seem to be angsty about it.

The main complaint about Apple is that their OS only runs on Apple hardware. But you could always swap the DVD drive or the hard drive or the RAM for something else. It was never anything like the restrictive process you're going to get with Windows Vista.

It's also ironic that some of those who are critics of Apple's platform are now rejoicing in the news that Windows Vista will be loaded up with all this DRM. Tell me, what good is all this DRM for the computer user?

Linux users were locked out of using DVDs once before, due to DRM. Fortunately, a teenager in Norway called DVD Jon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd_jon) cracked it. He was taken to court but won his case, because he wanted to play a legally purchased DVD on his Linux machine.

I fear this new Vista DRM regime will be much harder for Linux users, which of course is what Microsoft wants.

OzzyCat
01-05-2006, 09:54 AM
My main complaint at the moment is that the bloody thing is hideous!! My God, they REALLY don't wanna be using that crappy looking interface... I SOOO wish they'd let me have a week and I'd redesign it for them... gah... yuk yuk yuk!

thomaspecht
01-05-2006, 10:01 AM
vista? thank you ms, but i'm only interested in photoshop on linux/unix. main reason why i'm still running your stuff.

ThirdEye
01-05-2006, 10:05 AM
This new glass-like Aero interface just looks horrible.

xino
01-05-2006, 10:08 AM
My main complaint at the moment is that the bloody thing is hideous!! My God, they REALLY don't wanna be using that crappy looking interface... I SOOO wish they'd let me have a week and I'd redesign it for them... gah... yuk yuk yuk!

You can always redo the interface yourself you know? It's rather simple with Skinstudio and Windowblinds. Perhaps you should actually use it first before you have an opinion like the other "people" here....

This new glass-like Aero interface just looks horrible.

Perhaps you can actually try it first before making an opinion? It's more than just "new colors" and whatnot. A GUI is the entire feel for the user system and in my opinion, it works flawlessly so far.

The new GUI is great for those who are wondering. ;)

I guess I'm just not 'net cool enough to jump the internet bandwagon and bash a company for no reason.:shrug:

ThirdEye
01-05-2006, 10:11 AM
perhaps you can actually try it first before making an opinion? It's more than just "new colors" and whatnot. A GUI is the entire feel for the user system and in my opinion, it works flawlessly so far.

The new GUI is great for those who are wondering. ;)

Did i mention functionality? No. I'll repeat it again, it's horrible looking. IMHO.

xino
01-05-2006, 10:13 AM
Did i mention functionality? No. I'll repeat it again, it's horrible looking. IMHO.


It's still a faulty opinion to me since many of the design elements are functionality related.

ThirdEye
01-05-2006, 10:17 AM
It's still a faulty opinion to me since many of the design elements are functionality related.

I'm talking about the look of the icons, the glassy look of the windows, the semitransparent elements and so on. It looks tacky to me, and i hope they provide a Windows Classic interface.

Samo
01-05-2006, 10:19 AM
Perhaps you should actually use it first before you have an opinion like the other "people" here

Perhaps you can actually try it first before making an opinion?

You have a positive opinion, some others have a negative one, but almost nobody tried it yet.

ThomasMahler
01-05-2006, 10:21 AM
I can't believe that this is the final UI. It's so outdated and, if you think about it, really not efficient. The whole taskbar thing - I mean, when I'm modeling, I often have like 20 images open at a time. Plus a few AVIs and probably 2 or 3 apps as well. All of this stuff is stored in the taskbar and it's cluttered like hell. Glass doesn't make it better, hell, it makes it even worse. I've seen some Vista Beta shots where someone laid a few windows on top of each other and you really couldn't tell which window stored which information (http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winvista_b1_49.jpg), since everything was so cluttered and blurred.

With Windows Vista, we'll navigate through our PCs basically the same way we did with Windows 95 - And that's over 10 (!) years of time. There are a few remedies built in (like the new search and stuff), but basically it's just "patching" the issues, instead of coming up with something that makes more sense in the first place.

I'm very sceptical when it comes to Vista. What I've seen til now just feels like an unorganized bunch of people are trying to do a good job, but fail to see the initial problems they're facing. There will be a sidebar, there won't be a sidebar, there will be WinFS, there won't be WinFS, there will be a new UI, there won't be a new UI, it'll be vector based, it won't be vector based... Gee.

ndat
01-05-2006, 10:25 AM
Just wondering if any of the people here who are 'complaining' about how its buggy have actually used it-or are they just mouthing off cos its 'cool' to bash Microsoft?

Well we know about certian aspects of the software that could be harmful to our livelyhoods most notibly the DRM. Wel maybe not that far butl at least it could potentially cost a lot of money and make it impossible to cheaply upgrade our PC's. As for bugs, well thats just a given with most new software of this scope.

augustus
01-05-2006, 10:43 AM
The DRM (digital rights management) in Windows Vista is not just software based, it's hardware based. That's what's going to stop people freely swapping components around.
...
The main complaint about Apple is that their OS only runs on Apple hardware. But you could always swap the DVD drive or the hard drive or the RAM for something else. It was never anything like the restrictive process you're going to get with Windows Vista.


Are you suggesting that I will not be able to use whatever brand of RAM I want with Vista? Interesting, I thought (and apparently the consortium developped that thing) TPM just needs a single chip on the motherboard. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's good, I hate it as much as next guy. But please, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't.

Edit: To tone down my response, you're not totaly wrong. As far as I know, new optical drives (both BluRay and HD-DVD) will have an unique id ,and HDCP thing probaly needs to be supported by video card as well. But these are not uniqe to Vista. Apple sure will support, and other media devices too.


How is a free Linux OS going to pay Microsoft and Intel for the use of their DRM?

Linux is not a hobby project of a collage student anymore you know. There are companies like IBM, Novell, Redhat and communities spending money for it's development. Couldn't they pay 20-30k per year for source-code fee?



Tell me, what good is all this DRM for the computer user?

Of course nothing. Granted, it's their right to fight with piracy, but MPAA and RIAA pushing it to a level will hurt the paying customer. Unfortunately, they are own the content. :sad:

dragon_little
01-05-2006, 10:45 AM
seems to my that the ms guys do what the mac os x guys already have: gadgedts, the the search function, hey, common, thatīs tiger functions ... well done microsoft!
perhaps I give it a try ... or better lets see how long xp will be supported

UrbanFuturistic
01-05-2006, 10:47 AM
Just a few points as, even though I don't like the DRM stuff, there's a lot of exaggeration and hysteria here, at least from where I'm standing. I especially like the linked article that says (http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1182/what_windows_vista) "The bottom line is that if you decide to swap out one of the above mentioned hardware items with a non-certified component, the system will be crippled, or worse, unable to boot!". Unable to boot? Riiight, I can see MS selling a lot of copies of Vista, especially to corporations, if it throws a complete fit just because you're using a non DRM component.

OK, so what will happen if you have one non-DRM component? Probably, just the same as if you don't have any DRM components, or Vista, or even a version of Windows: you won't be able to play DRM content and that's it.

I'd also be interested to know how anyone came to the conclusion that swopping out one DRM component for another will cause any more problems than the usual. I mean, how exactly is this going to kill the Open PC platform? All the manufacturers (including nVidia, ATI, S3 and Intel) will be making DRM components, so how is this any different from requiring that a graphics card be PCI-e or AGP, or that a CPU has 739 pins and SSE2 instructions? It's not like these manufacturers are going to be stupid enough to make it so that the hardware can't work in non-DRM mode, otherwise a whole load of people upgrading with only li'll ol' Windows XP would be returning hardware in droves.

Sheesh, I remember when everyone was hysterical about XPs hardware keys and the supposedly hideous effect this would have on upgrades, well here I am having replaced my motherboard (twice, once for hardware failure) and just about every other component in my PC and XP reinstalled just fine... after I finally found that damned booklet with the CD key :argh:

So, the upshot? If you don't have a 100% DRM compliant PC it won't play DRM protected content and... er... that's it. OK, it still sucks that you won't be able to rip your favourite music/film to play on your portable player of choice or whatever but everything else, including all your old CDs, your MP3 collection and all that will play just fine and even Linux will still run, just with the lack of DRM features, although even this could be fixed with closed-source drivers and software.

regards, Paul

PS. All you Mac users can stop looking so smug, Intel, nVidia and ATI are behind this platform bigstyle so it's coming for you too, whether you or Apple like it or not.

yann22
01-05-2006, 11:02 AM
Will we all have to buy new monitors?

http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/14/the-clicker-microsofts-opm-for-the-masses/


This is worse than anything Apple ever has done, and that's saying something.

sforsyth
01-05-2006, 11:09 AM
Ah marketing. You gotta love the references to how bad XP is:

"It presents a view of all PCs, devices, and printers on the network, and is significantly faster and more reliable than My Network Places in Windows XP."

"In Windows XP, after you shut down your PC, it takes a long time to turn it back on."

But maybe people won't remember their last bad experience... This looks to me to be all flash and not very much substance to be honest. If they told me it was going to be 75% more stable for all software, THAT would be an upgrade worth considering.

DrFx
01-05-2006, 11:10 AM
"Windows Vista Aero provides spectacular visual effects such as glass-like interface elements that you can see through."

:banghead:

"Gadgets can connect to Web services to deliver weather information, news updates, traffic maps, Internet radio streams, and slideshows of online photo albums."

Great, now accessories are called "gadgets"! :shrug:

Para
01-05-2006, 11:13 AM
I'm talking about the look of the icons, the glassy look of the windows, the semitransparent elements and so on. It looks tacky to me, and i hope they provide a Windows Classic interface.

I have to agree with you here, one thing I'm worried about is the stacking of those windows: How many windows can be stacked until the screen is fileld with semi-transparent garble instead of something visually nice?

There will be a Classic interface too so don't worry about that. And there will be one UI version without the Glass effects for people who don't like them.

Will we all have to buy new monitors?

http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/14/the-clicker-microsofts-opm-for-the-masses/


This is worse than anything Apple ever has done, and that's saying something.

That's the oddest thing related to Vista I've read since I first time heard of Vista about 18 months ago :argh: No actual sources for this really make it look believeable (but then again, I wouldn't care if that was the case since no one is forcing anybody to upgrade to Vista).

Equinoxx
01-05-2006, 11:14 AM
[B]Great, now accessories are called "gadgets"!

heh sounds about right, since in my book, gadgets are things you bought/got just to look back and say ... WHAT the HELL do I need that for ...

and then you toss it out.

we computersavvy people are getting farnarkled by the illiterate ones I tell you.
Microsoft makes windows for the masses, so it gets bloated with things we *nerds* don't need nor want.

oh well guess that's the way it always goes ...

tozz
01-05-2006, 11:17 AM
Vista just marks the beginning for a switch to Linux. When MS drops XP support I'm out, can't handle the immense crap MS is putting into Vista. It took 3-4years to get XP running smoothly, just imagine the time it will take for Vista, no thanks.

And what's up with this, "it's cool to bash MS". I would say it's "it's cool to bash people who's bashing MS". I really like XP, I think it's sweet as hell (when you mod it) but I hate Vista so hard I'll probably never hate a piece of software that hard again, am I'm trying to be cool? jeez :banghead:

OzzyCat
01-05-2006, 11:18 AM
Yes... it COULD look stunning... it could have looked incredible... had they done it tastefully... a few weeks ago, the Windows Vista website looked lovely... pastel blues, with subtle details everywhere... very subtle. They had buttons etc that, made into the Windows Vista interface with minimal and subtle glass effects, would look STUNNING. But alas... look what happened to Windows XP... it was disgusting.

Ah well... at least we know it currently has skinning support! lol.

Samo
01-05-2006, 11:19 AM
I believe that Micro$oft (oh! I did it) is more interested in keeping market share than anything else, so many of these restrictive features will never see the light.

augustus
01-05-2006, 11:20 AM
heh sounds about right, since in my book, gadgets are things you bought/got just to look back and say ... WHAT the HELL do I need that for ...


He he, probably this is why they names them as gadgets, since sidebar announced, diseppear and reanounced. It seems they couldn't decide if those things are really usefull. :)

Equinoxx
01-05-2006, 12:09 PM
It seems they couldn't decide if those things are really usefull. :)

it's not ... it's a waste of screen real-estate, that's what it is ...

same for the taskbar, I wish they would go about that differently with perhaps only the startbutton & the tray visible with a one-click [not hover or drag as are currently the options] to make the content of the taskbar visible ...

Rodi
01-05-2006, 12:13 PM
Me' thinks vista looks sweet, I hope my system can handle all that glass effect and 3d desktop features, mmmm

mustique
01-05-2006, 04:05 PM
Vista is a poor OSX wannabe.
This is the time, where Apple should release an OSX for PC.

toonman
01-05-2006, 04:14 PM
*sigh*... honestly, I don't know how to react... but I do know I will be taking a closer look at OSX and Linux...

brudney
01-05-2006, 04:24 PM
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/4062/vista3js.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


sorry, couldn't help it :p

richcz3
01-05-2006, 04:24 PM
I really cant complain about Windows XP in its current state. I'm running various PC's with different hardware without issue. I could care less about the looks of Vista. I run most of my PC's with the Classic interface anyway.

So I'll wait out on Vista at least a year or more unless there is some absolute compelling advantage to get it sooner.

ThirdEye
01-05-2006, 04:25 PM
It'd be nice to know when it'll be available.

Rodi
01-05-2006, 04:47 PM
by around the end of this year....so says mr gates, no precise date yet

Beamtracer
01-05-2006, 04:59 PM
Bill Gates once promised that Vista (Longhorn) will be released in 2003. Now he says 2006. I say you won't see it until 2007.

ThirdEye
01-05-2006, 05:03 PM
Bill Gates once promised that Vista (Longhorn) will be released in 2003. Now he says 2006. I say you won't see it until 2007.

I think it'll be out during fall 2006, otherwise they wouldn't be showing anything in public. A whole betatesting year sounds enough to me.

SheepFactory
01-05-2006, 05:10 PM
I hope they release it as soon as possible , or at least the companies release some damn drivers for xp64 , i cant use most of the things i own or want to get thanmks to lack of drivers. :(

CupOWonton
01-05-2006, 05:12 PM
I'm realy sick and tired of these buisnesses making all our choices for us.

To get Vista, you'll need A new DRM "CERTAFIED" monitor. And if it meets the minimum, your video will be fuzzed to prevent you from.. I dunno.. WATCHING YOUR OWN PAID FOR CONTENT. What next, "CERTIFIED" speakers that intentionaly degrade the music so you cant listen to it if you dont have the NEWEST 7.1 speaker set?

This DRM BS needs to stop, theyre infiltrating peoples lives with this crap. Ya know what, they allowed people to copy things using VHS and TAPE, I say its too late for them to just suddenly say " well, no , realy you arent entitled to copying your own paid for content." You pay to watch TV, and they are now going to flag programs so Windows or TIVO will essentialy lock the content after so long, and automaticly or force you do delete it yourself.

I dont want my family videos accidentaly being flagged for deletion, and losing it, and not having anyone to complain to or sue because its "their right" to force all this BS on us and theyve made sure that theres no way in hell they could be sued for "protecting their content" as they call it, when in fact theyre just forcing you to buy new hardware just to listen or view something you already paid for.

PhilOsirus
01-05-2006, 05:21 PM
MS wants to prevent people from isntalling Blu-Ray drives in their PCs. To me, Vista sounds like MS yelling "We're suffocating! Quick, must wave our arms around in panic!".

NeptuneImaging
01-05-2006, 05:28 PM
I wonder if I will be able to run XSI on Vista? After looking at it, I am not convinced at all because come March or April, I am having a Custom-Made workstation built with WINXP on it. I have not have had problems on XP at all, but with the listed restrictions on hardware swapping, I really hate the idea of being restricted, especially as an artist who like to be in control of the way things look.

So, are they expecting me to buy a system that has this shit pre-installed the moment I buy it? I had to recently disable Internet Explorer because it was driving me nuts. And what will happen with designers who make programmes like Photoshop, Maya, or XSI? Will they make versions, that will still work on XP? I know people who still use Win98 and they own high end systems.

To me, getting Vista will spell disaster when I or everyone else wants to add more memory or additional hardware to their rig. It is just my opinion.

CupOWonton
01-05-2006, 05:38 PM
How much of the Microsoft user base is buisnesses and users who will eventualy need to upgrade components rather than buy a whole new computer? Because I'm sure they arent going to want Vista if they have to take the extra time to even TRY and make a Vista migration or try and re-register everything all over again.

tikal26
01-05-2006, 05:39 PM
I really don't care about all that aero crap I want my system to run smooth and realiable all this aero glass thing doesn't seem to have any puppose and the new alt+tab is a bad ripoof of expose. I am not a windows basher but I what ir eally care about is security and realiability something that windows XP really did not provide. I use linux when working on maya it just alot more realiable, but we still have three computer at home with XP and just going trought the trouble of mantaining them and turning dll off is a pain.

Nichod
01-05-2006, 05:42 PM
I love Windows. And I love Microsoft! YAY!

I'd say we all just have to wait and see.

toonpang
01-05-2006, 05:51 PM
I'm a huge fan of OSX, but I have to say that XP right now runs great on my PC, is fast and "snappy" in Maya and rarely crashes.

I really feel like right when Windows was an OS that didn't drive me insane to use on a daily basis they go and announce an OS that will have me running back to OSX.

The death of MS is going to be slow and painfull... I can't understand why people would choose Vista over OSX. And think if Apple did release OSX for standard PC's, then MS's death would be farily quick and painless. :D

-Kevin

NeptuneImaging
01-05-2006, 05:51 PM
How much of the Microsoft user base is buisnesses and users who will eventualy need to upgrade components rather tahn buy a whole new computer? Because I'm sure they arent going to want Vista if they have to take the extra time to even TRY and make a Vista migration or try and re-register everything all over again.


I agree with this. I don't want to shell out more dough just to buy a new computer when the custom system I build will probably be WAY LESS than the net pricing for a decked out Dell XPS with Vista tied to the hardware and every other WARE. There are too many restrictions coming our way. Everyone was able to copy their Paid for CD to the hard drive to sort of protect the integrity of the content. So what now we have to keep buying the same damn CD EVERYTIME it gets broken? I don't think so.

I am certain we all have CD Burners on our rigs, and now what will happen to them.

NeptuneImaging
01-05-2006, 05:55 PM
I'm a huge fan of OSX, but I have to say that XP right now runs great on my PC, is fast and "snappy" in Maya and rarely crashes.

I really feel like right when Windows was an OS that didn't drive me insane to use on a daily basis they go and announce an OS that will have me running back to OSX.

The death of MS is going to be slow and painfull... I can't understand why people would choose Vista over OSX. And think if Apple did release OSX for standard PC's, then MS's death would be farily quick and painless. :D

-Kevin

I can see it like a movie: "The Death and Return of Microsoft". But yeah, Vista sounds like a death sentence for them IMO. Shit, I enjoy custom setups and hardware swapping. I am trying to learn how to make a theme so that my desktop looks like XSI.

spec24
01-05-2006, 06:07 PM
The extendable memory thing I'd never heard of, and sounds cool, although I question what sort of latency they'll have. I mean, Microsoft almost seems to be dictating PC design with some of these choices. That and the mini-screen for laptops makes me question what exactly they're aiming for with this release.

I wonder if the marketing campaign will boast compatibility with these technologies... that they just made up, and don't actually have any practical application.

who better to dictate PC design than the most used operating system in the world?

Every new Windows release, the doom squad comes out and gives their two cents. Let's just see how it goes.

Sonk
01-05-2006, 06:14 PM
I love Windows. And I love Microsoft! YAY!

I'd say we all just have to wait and see.

I been using XP for since it was released, i thought i would upgrade to Vista..but im not so sure now(with the OGL thing, and now this). Im going to look into Linux!

Frank Lake
01-05-2006, 06:14 PM
lol! All this MS doomsaying it truely funny.

XP also has similar 'security features' that were only tamed down and not removed. Vista will be same in nature, some stuff will be scaled back but not removed.

Everyone should be more concerned by the fact that burners of any digital media will be HIGHLY regulated and stop being easily found & bought. Hardware swapping was dead when the DMA came out and made production of non-complaint hardware illegal.

It's all BS, but with company's squeezing out every penny of profit that they can the company's are basically mandating that their workers be computer knowledgable because it lessens the amount of paper( and by extention printers) they have to buy( & maintain).

P_T
01-05-2006, 06:28 PM
All these features are... pretty. Hate that gadget/sidebar thing but I like that EMD feature though. I just hope I will have the option to NOT install them if I don't want them instead of having to delete or disable and still have them sit in my HDD takin the space I can use for other things, eg. install in classic mode and not have all those glass buttons, gadgets etc installed in my HD at all.

I wouldn't worry too much about the DRM, if it's annoying enough, someone out there will find a way around them, someone always do.

NeptuneImaging
01-05-2006, 06:28 PM
Everyone should be more concerned by the fact that burners of any digital media will be HIGHLY regulated and stop being easily found & bought.



and this is what I fear the most. What if I want to burn some of my homemade CG? Virtually, I am screwed.

Frank Lake
01-05-2006, 06:42 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the DRM, if it's annoying enough, someone out there will find a way around them, someone always do.

Keep dream'n. By making the DRM hardware based and further removing 'options'(like hardware swapping & case opening) they are moving to make the DRM ideals a permanent feature. Now throw in the annoying fact that you won't be able to buy 'newer' older manufactured hardware and you are very screwed.

---------------

I do have to agree with what I've read from several articles that MS is basically stuck between a rock(Media Corps) and a hard place(it's customers).

richcz3
01-05-2006, 06:46 PM
Hardware, Software, and Entertainment concerns are coming together and playing nice with each other. Expect the DRM to seep into your ISP through software then hardware controls. So at some point

Custom or user built PC's will be frowned on. It will get to be the point there will be a black or gray market for PC hardware that negates the DRM requirements. Burners, Monitors and the like. Oh the fun. But don't blame Microsft, expect Apple and any other OS software that wants support to go in this direction.

P_T
01-05-2006, 07:03 PM
Keep dream'n. By making the DRM hardware based and further removing 'options'(like hardware swapping & case opening) they are moving to make the DRM ideals a permanent feature. Now throw in the annoying fact that you won't be able to buy 'newer' older manufactured hardware and you are very screwed.


I truly hope that won't come true. :sad:

Just a question, you know how you can put a mod chip in PS2 to play imported games... Maybe someone will come up with something like that, or maybe something like SoftQuadro driver, something to "fool" the hardware.

CupOWonton
01-05-2006, 07:18 PM
I blame Metallica for causing the increase in forced DRM abuse.

agreenster
01-05-2006, 07:26 PM
I was flipping through the features and I know it's been thought and said before, the "new" features they talk about have been around in OSX for years.

For example:

Sleep (OSX has been able to recover from sleep in 1 second since v 1)
Quick Search Box (called Spotlight)
Windows Aero (called Quartz Extreme in OSX, coupled with Core Image)
Windows Flip (called Expose in OSX)
Gadgets (called Widgets everywhere else, including OSX)
Windows Sidebar (Dock mixed with the Widgets pane "Dashboard" in OSX)

Some of the other stuff like sideshow seems gimmicky. The memory stuff seems interesting. What Windows has OSX spanked on is networking, as usual. I dont mean to be a poo-pooer, but Vista doesnt seem like "all that." It especially isnt worth the what, 4 year wait?

The DRM crap is just plain scary.

Just for the record, I use and enjoy XP (great OS) and OSX Tiger both at work and home. I just think Vista is too little too late, but we'll see I guess.

NeptuneImaging
01-05-2006, 07:27 PM
Custom PC makers will be very screwed if this "DRM" fully comes to fruitition. In Cambridge, I go to this store that makes custom PC's and I can get the same config of a high end computer for roughly 1/2 the price.

As for the music thing, what if I want to back up my PAID-FOR godsmack CD on my Hard drive. And so that I get instant playback. Not ALL people share the songs on the HD. It is stupid to limit computer users, that is why we have people who can get around stuff like this. just wait and see.

PhilOsirus
01-05-2006, 07:41 PM
I'll be looking into Linux. Heck, maybe I can keep one computer for web-related stuff, and the other will run Linux and my work-related apps, back-up, etc. Anyway I feel MS is shooting themselves in the foot, then again that's the only way they know of making money. Oh and you can bet piracy will be on the rise. Not because people want to copy apps, but people will look for solutions to small annoyances imposed on them and at the same be exposed to what piracy offers them just because they wanted to be able to use a Blu-Ray DVD driver (for example).

Well there you go, first step in that direction:
Windows Vista drops support for old DVD drives (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060102-5874.html)

NeptuneImaging
01-05-2006, 08:08 PM
Oh that is nice to know. I can't wait to get my custom setup in April. :twisted:

ThirdEye
01-05-2006, 08:29 PM
Well there you go, first step in that direction:
Windows Vista drops support for old DVD drives (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060102-5874.html)


To be honest i don't give a damn about it, a dvd drive costs a few dimes. Dropping support for old hw is normal, just think about the minimum requirements of your 3D apps, do they support PIII? I don't think so.

pnoland
01-05-2006, 08:32 PM
I blame Metallica for causing the increase in forced DRM abuse.

Oooh, no he d'nt! That joke is a wee bit late, bro. :P


Anyway, Vista's UI looks like a crappy windowblinds job so I -do- hope they include the classic mode not that I'm even really considering upgrading. Linux is always a good choice for an OS but for me not all the programs I use support it so I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I switched. :/

Frank Lake
01-05-2006, 09:14 PM
To be honest i don't give a damn about it, a dvd drive costs a few dimes. Dropping support for old hw is normal, just think about the minimum requirements of your 3D apps, do they support PIII? I don't think so.
Oh! So you don't mind losing the ability to back-up or tranfer your materials from an older DVD. Since programs that allow transfer between computers are now becoming illegal. BTW the newer HDVD drives are not cheap and won't be for at least 2 years. If Vista comes out this year their will be millions of people who will be unable to do much of anything with their computer because they'll have to save enough money to do a near complete system upgrade. This won't be a simple DOOM3 fix, popping in a 300 buck higher-end vid card won't fix it. People with have to spend 1-2 grand just to get some of their old usability back.

So lets see the new MS OS will dicate not only what you can view, but also how you view it record it, tranfers it or even listen to it. Yeah that sounds REALLY nice! Well folks here is what compatibility/greed has gotten you!

augustus
01-05-2006, 09:47 PM
Sleep (OSX has been able to recover from sleep in 1 second since v 1)

And Windows as well, since... I'm not sure, Windows 2k?


Quick Search Box (called Spotlight)

Well, quick search is not something new, but yes, this is a little too familiar. :)


Windows Aero (called Quartz Extreme in OSX, coupled with Core Image)

Do you mean avalon? Might be, I don't know nothing about Core Image.

Windows Flip (called Expose in OSX)

It's just enhanced Alt-tab.


Gadgets (called Widgets everywhere else, including OSX)
Windows Sidebar (Dock mixed with the Widgets pane "Dashboard" in OSX)

Sidebar was announced much before OSX got widgets (which is an almost exact copy of Konfabulator). And dock is nothing but a shiny taskbar with more eye candy (flame on! :) )


The DRM crap is just plain scary.

True.

Oh! So you don't mind losing the ability to back-up or tranfer your materials from an older DVD.
?? Vista will not support old DVD drives which don't support region coding, mostly produced before year 2000, not all DVD drives.

agreenster
01-05-2006, 10:14 PM
And Windows as well, since... I'm not sure, Windows 2k?
It's just enhanced Alt-tab.



Re: Sleep mode

Its different than hibernate. Recovery from sleep is instant-on, which windows has never supported as far as I know.

Re: AltTab

Advanced Alt tab it might be, but OSX had the exact same thing before Vista, where you can see multiple images of all of your documents spread out over your screen, 3D or otherwise.

But let's be real--none of these things are revolutionary with Vista. While Widgets is basically Konfab, OSX was the first to fold it in, and it's annoying for Windows to reveal it like it's "New." I guess the same thing can be said about Apple and OSX, since they didnt come up with it first.

Bottom line is, no matter how shiny the OS, what really matters is efficiency and productivity and security. I'm really not sure if Windows OR OSX has really done anything revolutionary for quite some time.

Nichod
01-05-2006, 10:22 PM
ITS THE END OF THE WORLD. MS IS RELEASING ANOTHER OPERATINGS SYSTEM! Quick! Everyone bitch and complain about everything before its realized yet again that Windows is the most used and beloved operating system on the planet.

Seriously guys. Get over the whole MS hate thing, its just annoying. I like Windows. XP I can say has not crashed ever. I've had software crash, but it was just a matter of closing and restarting the application. This same end of the world mentality happened with XP and MS is still kicking. I personally like how MS forces sweeping changes in the computer world. A lot of the advances have happened because MS was behind it and required the development of specific hardware enhancements.

Really I think the main reason everyone is all ooh no..is because they see that Windows Vista will be a pretty nice OS. Capable of expanding memory using external flash memory cards. A gizmo like plug and play system with quick and easy accessible enhancements. Complete and hardcore protection against hackers, viruses, etc. Fast, powerful and easy to access search. Hybrid harddrive...slick. Use Flip 3D to navigate through open windows using the scroll wheel on your mouse, very sweet.

And I'm sorry, but the hardware issues are a fact of life, that exists with any software. When you upgrade to a new version of any software from a older version, more often than not, the video card needs upgrading, or drivers need to be changed. Sometimes more RAM is required. Etc. Etc. I'm sure that its not the end of days with Vista.

toonpang
01-05-2006, 10:27 PM
The point is OSX has these features in a very polished form right now. All that Vista has is a list of features it may have once it is released in 6 months (unless its pushed back.. again).

Macworld starts monday so don't be suprised when OSX.5 has a list of soon to come features of its own (that will MS will take until 2009 to copy) while Vista is mearly trying to catch up to where OSX has been for a year now.

Yet again OSX is much farther along in development that Windows could ever hope to be.

The sad thing is XP is great for what it is! I just built a PC with XP that runs Maya awesome. I feel like eveytime they release a new version it takes until SP2 to become usable and then they go and ruin it by releasing something new to early.

-Kevin

ThirdEye
01-05-2006, 10:28 PM
Windows is the most used and beloved operating system on the planet.

Used sure, but beloved? I would rather use another OS (either OSX or Linux) if the apps i use supported it. I just use Win because i need to, and i'm sure there's a shitload of people who happen to do the same.

JDex
01-05-2006, 10:46 PM
Used sure, but beloved? I would rather use another OS (either OSX or Linux) if the apps i use supported it. I just use Win because i need to, and i'm sure there's a shitload of people who happen to do the same.

As it stands now with Windows... I agree. Apple's OS has matured, although I believe it has a way to go yet... Linux on the other-hand... well, I still think it needs to simmer abit, for me. The thing about this DRM and the concerns involved, is that this is exactly where Apple is and will continue to go, MS is just pushing it faster. Get used to having "validated" hardware and locked content, or learn Linux and to live with it's interesting lifestyle.

PhilOsirus
01-05-2006, 10:49 PM
Vista will not support old DVD drives which don't support region coding, mostly produced before year 2000, not all DVD drives.

Yeah except it's a first step in the wrong direction. MS will not allow you to use a Blu-Ray drive, only HD-DVD drive will be accepted. It should give you a good idea what they have in mind with Vista.

Really I think the main reason everyone is all ooh no..is because they see that Windows Vista will be a pretty nice OS. Capable of expanding memory using external flash memory cards. A gizmo like plug and play system with quick and easy accessible enhancements

I would be really stupid to be angry at MS for making a new, better OS, but this is not the case, it is an attempt at reducing the freedom users have.

SimonPickard
01-05-2006, 11:11 PM
Hi there,

This is my take on the whole lockdown issue. I think hardware will drive it more so than vista or any other os.

Give it a few years and your soundcard will be able to detect if you're playing a knockoff mp3. Your video card will detect your playing a xvid or divx video. The cpu will also be on the lookout. This isn't about vista, moving to another os in the long run wont help. If you want the latest gfx card you'll have to run an os that supports digial rights software to match the hardware.

I wouldn't slam vista for this. Computers are going to move over towards this and hardware is going to play as big a part as the OS.

Just my take on it.

Regards,
Simon.

Beamtracer
01-05-2006, 11:11 PM
Complete and hardcore protection against hackers, viruses, etc.
It's amusing that a number of people have touted the UNIX-style robust permissions as a feature of Windows Vista that will protect against viruses. and hackers, and make it more robust than XP.

The UNIX-derived operating systems Linux and Mac OS X have had this since their outset.

But hang on... I thought the previous argument was that the only reason Windows XP gets attacked and hacked so much was because of "market share" only, not because of any failings with the OS.

Now that Windows Vista gains a permissions system more similar to UNIX(+Linux,+Mac), it gets hailed as hardcore protection. That must mean that WinXP has holes in it.

DrQuincy
01-05-2006, 11:16 PM
But hang on... I thought the previous argument was that the only reason Windows XP gets attacked and hacked so much was because of "market share" only, not because of any failings with the OS.

I think it's a bit of both.

I find it amazing it has taken MS so long to realise how much better the privlidge system on *NIX systems are.

strangelife
01-05-2006, 11:25 PM
ITS THE END OF THE WORLD. MS IS RELEASING ANOTHER OPERATINGS SYSTEM! Quick! Everyone bitch and complain about everything before its realized yet again that Windows is the most used and beloved operating system on the planet.

Well, ok. But "beloved"? Really?

Yeah, some folks are doing the freak a little prematurely. Some with interesting points and others because it's fashionable. The black/white of forumspeak is like that sometimes especially when an OS or software is involved (read the "Autodesk acquires Alias" thread for a fantastic representation of this).

As far as Vista is concerned, I'd have to say "suspicious" sums up my feelings at this point. Part of it is a deep seated distaste for monolithic corporations (not to mention MS's legal foibles over the years) and the other is a fear of losing some computing freedoms I enjoy now. The future seems really invasive on the computer front to me. And privacy is the victim.

Frank Lake
01-05-2006, 11:59 PM
?? Vista will not support old DVD drives which don't support region coding, mostly produced before year 2000, not all DVD drives.

That's nice. But I wonder if they realise that the industry has moved away from region specfic coding even though DMCA still apply's. Doesn't matter anyways because like 5.25, 3.25, and CD's. DVD's will stop being supported or manufactured out right within the next few years(5 yearsmax) in favor of HDVD & Blu-Ray. Thus forcing all those people who want to simply buy Vista to also spend hundreds more just to be able too.

Like I said when Vista comes out the end of 'cheap' upgrades will arrive.

Oh and BTW I hope everyone has sold their NERO stock before it tanks. ;) :D

colinbear
01-06-2006, 12:48 AM
Yeah except it's a first step in the wrong direction. MS will not allow you to use a Blu-Ray drive, only HD-DVD drive will be accepted. It should give you a good idea what they have in mind with Vista.

I would be really stupid to be angry at MS for making a new, better OS, but this is not the case, it is an attempt at reducing the freedom users have.

funny. thats exactly what Microsoft have said about Sony and the DRM structure in the Blu-Ray format. Hence their support for HD-DVD and its (eventual?) inclusion in the Xbox360.

arstechnica have an interesting Microsoft vs BluRay article here:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/microsoft-hd-dvd.ars


[/url]] and this is what I fear the most. What if I want to burn some of my homemade CG? Virtually, I am screwed.

you what?? your homemade CG isnt going to be authored with DRM is it? so why will vista prevent you from burning it to disc?

gotta love these types of threads where at the first hint of users "freedoms" being usurped people jump in without any idea what they are talking about, claiming that the sky is falling.

arvid
01-06-2006, 12:53 AM
Haven't read all the posts, so perhaps this was already posted, looks pretty cool, actually. Not especially useful or necessary, but kind of cool.

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/2772/Windows_Vista.html

Jozvex
01-06-2006, 12:59 AM
That does look pretty nifty arvid!

E_Moelzer
01-06-2006, 01:26 AM
Hello!
Well, I am building my own PCs and I always will. Lets just say I only trust those computers that I have seen the inside off.
Some of our PCs here have been in service for a very long time, even though components have been replaced every year or so.
Other new systems were built out of older ones via Mix n' Match.
This proved to be very cost effective for a small studio like ours. I am really concerned about how we will continue doing that with Vista... kinda scary...
Also the whole Aero- glass thing is nice and all, but you will have to disable it anyway if you want to run your OpenGL (3d-) apps...
BTW, we are still running Win2k here on most systems, just because of that reason, but Win2k is about to reach the end of its lifecycle, sigh...
CU
Elmar

Beamtracer
01-06-2006, 02:43 AM
BTW, we are still running Win2k here on most systems, just because of that reason, but Win2k is about to reach the end of its lifecycle, sigh...
Hi Elmar,

I read recently that most corporations that run Windows are still on Win 2000, and have not switched to XP. So it's not an unusual situation that your business is still running Win 2000.

When Microsoft drops support for an older OS, then that will force you to upgrade. You need to get their security patches.

What worries me even more, is that when Microsoft bands together with Intel and enforces a DRM regime, then that may force other platforms to follow (if they want to view commercial content on their platform).

Apart from the hideous nature of hardware DRM (which some people posting earlier in this thread seem really happy that they'll be getting this DRM with Windows Vista), there's also license fees involved.

Because Apple is now in bed with Intel, I'm sure Apple will pay the fees (possibly less than $10 per machine... I'm just guessing here).

We know that Microsoft would love to levy a fee on every Linux distribution. Someone earlier said that Red Hat could easily pay this fee, which they probably could, but many Linux distros (eg Debian) are free distributions that aren't supported by any corporation.

I think many of those people supporting this Vista DRM regime will have the smiles wiped off their faces when they see how it will change the landscape of computing. Apart from making the x86 platform a "walled garden" instead of an Open PC platform, Vista DRM will also cause other dilemmas.

Software on Windows Vista will be tethered to a processor or machine. Change a component on that machine, and maybe the software will not operate. If you move the hard drive (full of your applications) to another machine, it may then not work.

We have never had these sorts of draconian restrictions before.

This Windows Vista concept of DRM that locks into hardware is really bad. It's not good for users. It's not good for anyone, except the profits of Microsoft and Intel. I hope the public resists it.

Jozvex
01-06-2006, 02:51 AM
Software on Windows Vista will be tethered to a processor or machine. Change a component on that machine, and maybe the software will not operate. If you move the hard drive (full of your applications) to another machine, it may then not work.

People who own Motionbuilder (at least the pre-Alias version) will have experienced this to an extent. With Motionbuilder you got 3 allowed hardware changes basically. I bought a new monitor, had to email and get a new key, then a few months later I got a second hard drive, had to get another key.

Now I'm on my last key! If I change any hardware, no more Motionbuilder. Though Kaydara did say that if you could show you weren't trying anything sneaky they would just give you more keys.

Imagine this on most programs.....yikes!

E_Moelzer
01-06-2006, 02:58 AM
Yikes! A new monitor???
Thats horrible!
Damn, I am so glad NewTek still uses Dongles, I can run my LW anywhere I want, just only one at a time. So much more userfriendly...
LOL at the rate we exchange hardware parts here and hardware tends to break these days, this kind of policy really sucks.
I had 2 broken harddrives within the last 4 months (Seagate, which used to be very relyable, but seemingly are not anymore, kinda sucks).
We also replace graphicscards and CPUs rather frequently, a new graphics- card about every year or so...
I dont like the direction things go lately, I really dont...
CU
Elmar

NeptuneImaging
01-06-2006, 03:02 AM
funny. thats exactly what Microsoft have said about Sony and the DRM structure in the Blu-Ray format. Hence their support for HD-DVD and its (eventual?) inclusion in the Xbox360.

arstechnica have an interesting Microsoft vs BluRay article here:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/microsoft-hd-dvd.ars




you what?? your homemade CG isnt going to be authored with DRM is it? so why will vista prevent you from burning it to disc?

gotta love these types of threads where at the first hint of users "freedoms" being usurped people jump in without any idea what they are talking about, claiming that the sky is falling.

I mean like being able to burn my film to DVD without paying an arm and a leg to do so.

Frank Lake
01-06-2006, 03:03 AM
gotta love these types of threads where at the first hint of users "freedoms" being usurped people jump in without any idea what they are talking about, claiming that the sky is falling.

With all due respect, but don't you still rent(buy seats for) your 3D software? You shouldn't talk about 'freedom' so condecdly(spl).

So what is stopping your 3D programs makers from requiring you to use a DRM(even though you've bought the software doesn't mean you actually own the saves or ANY files with it creates)? What's to actually stopping them from coding it directly into the files structure with every save?

Also I haven't heard anything about whether Vista's DRM scheme will lock files saved on disc so it will only open on that specific computer. I doubt this will happen but given the greedy paranoia it's not something to be ruled out.

Jozvex
01-06-2006, 03:15 AM
Yikes! A new monitor???
Thats horrible!

Ahh you know what, at the same time as I installed the new monitor I also installed a firewire card too, so it may have been that instead, or the combination.

But still!

NeptuneImaging
01-06-2006, 03:18 AM
Yikes! A new monitor???
Thats horrible!
Damn, I am so glad NewTek still uses Dongles, I can run my LW anywhere I want, just only one at a time. So much more userfriendly...
LOL at the rate we exchange hardware parts here and hardware tends to break these days, this kind of policy really sucks.
I had 2 broken harddrives within the last 4 months (Seagate, which used to be very relyable, but seemingly are not anymore, kinda sucks).
We also replace graphicscards and CPUs rather frequently, a new graphics- card about every year or so...
I dont like the direction things go lately, I really dont...
CU
Elmar


I am with you elmar, and so does XSI using a dongle. I am so afraid that if I want to make a custom PC, I can't :( not with vista installed

Para
01-06-2006, 10:14 AM
I read recently that most corporations that run Windows are still on Win 2000, and have not switched to XP. So it's not an unusual situation that your business is still running Win 2000.


It surely isn't, for example in the summer of 2004 I worked for a while in a company which was mostly based on Win NT4 and Win2k (but the point for me being there was because they we're migrating to 2k3 servers and XP workstations :)) so corporations lag a few years in a sense always when a new OS comes up because they don't want to be the ones who test the so called final product and take the financial hit caused by technical problems.

UrbanFuturistic
01-06-2006, 10:51 AM
Haven't read all the posts, so perhaps this was already posted, looks pretty cool, actually. Not especially useful or necessary, but kind of cool.

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/2772/Windows_Vista.html
Eh, been done :p (http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.xml)

But seriously, that asides, no-one has so far answered my question as to how exactly requiring DRM compliant hardware is going to end the swapping out of hardware components. I mean, how is it going to stop people upgrading from one DRM compliant video card to a new DRM compliant video card? I know someone's mentioned it'll use your computer as a hardware key but then Windows XP already does that and as I've already stated, I've changed damn near every component in my computer and it still re-registered just fine. I've not yet been shown any part of this whole DRM thing that actually makes the PC a closed platform. I see a lot of people saying it's going to prevent hardware swapping but no-one's explaining how it's going to do this. All things considered, I find it hard to believe nVidia or ATI would be on board with this without making sure it was implemented in a way that wouldn't affect their hardware sales.

regards, Paul

Beamtracer
01-06-2006, 11:14 AM
But seriously, that asides, no-one has so far answered my question as to how exactly requiring DRM compliant hardware is going to end the swapping out of hardware components.
The Windows Vista DRM regime won't stop all swapping of hardware components. But it could result in:
1 Only Windows Vista DRM certified components working (hey that generic SATA hard drive sitting on your shelf won't work any more)
2 A registration process
3 Result in 3rd party software and hardware providers paying fees to the DRM holders (ie, Microsoft & Intel)

Para
01-06-2006, 11:30 AM
The Windows Vista DRM regime won't stop all swapping of hardware components. But it could result in:
1 Only Windows Vista DRM certified components working (hey that generic SATA hard drive sitting on your shelf won't work any more)
2 A registration process
3 Result in 3rd party software and hardware providers paying fees to the DRM holders (ie, Microsoft & Intel)

You need to think the issue a bit further: Think DRM as a "certification of quality" meaning it will work with Vista. I'd say it's a more open version of Apple's policy about hardware running in their computers meaning that only certain versions of some stuff (GPU:s for example*) is "allowed" to run in order to make sure that it's surely compatible instead of some half-assed clone product PC components market has been riddled with.

I don't understand how your logic introduced 3rd party software to this equasion, software runs through API which have always been, are and will be available at www.msdn.com (http://www.msdn.com) and while it's possible to lock certain hardware to work only with certain software (think dongles) it's nothing new what would be dramatically changed by this...vision of DRM.


*You can actually put almost any GPU into an Apple computer as long as you have a tech-savvy Windows/Linux-using friend who knows how to flash GPU BIOS chips with Apple-compatible software.

UrbanFuturistic
01-06-2006, 11:51 AM
The Windows Vista DRM regime won't stop all swapping of hardware components. But it could result in:
1 Only Windows Vista DRM certified components working (hey that generic SATA hard drive sitting on your shelf won't work any more)
2 A registration process
3 Result in 3rd party software and hardware providers paying fees to the DRM holders (ie, Microsoft & Intel)1 I seriously doubt that. As has been said in a number of articles, computers without DRM hardware won't play DRM content and that's it. I think a company large enough to tell Sony where to stick Blu Ray is large enough to draw the line somewhere.

2 Again, Windows XP already has this, as does MS Office, MS Studio .Net, etc.

3 ...and this is different to now how? There are a number of different patents, licenses, etc. China's developing its own alternative to HD-DVD and Blu Ray to avoid paying licensing fees like they do for manufacturing DVD drives and players right now; small software companies the world over already have to pay licensing fees to release their DVD playing software or games based on someone else's 3D engine.

When it comes down to it, exactly how many copies of Vista is MS going to sell if it won't function on non-DRM hardware? If you need to 'upgrade' all your other software for it to run? How many people are going to upgrade in the next 2-3 years? The next 5 years?

At the end of the day I see no evidence that this is going to do anything more than deny people protected content until they upgrade, and since DVDs and CDs are still going to be around for a few years yet I really don't see that it's going to have that much of an effect in the short term. Yeah, it sucks that at some point you'll no longer be able to just rip your own CDs to any generic portable mp3 player with the greatest of ease but 45% of the stuff people are claiming it'll mean is rubbish and another 45% is already here. That leaves about 10% (the excessive DRM) of truth as to what Vista actually means and while that 10% sucks it'll make no real difference whether you upgrade Windows or not 'cause XP isn't going to be able to play any of that DRM protected content either and Vista's not going to stop iTunes or WinAmp working.

So:
- By the time all this DRM hardware actually matters, you'll probably have upgraded anyway
- I've still not seen any evidence that this is going to kill the Open PC platform
- I've still not seen any evidence that the DRM software approval consortium is going to have control over software other than that which handles DRM content
- This isn't actually taking anything away from anyone, you're just not getting extras; all the stuff you've had available for years is still going to be there so far as I can tell.

Now, I'm hardly Microsoft's biggest fan, I still haven't entirely forgiven them for the horror that was Visual C++ 4.2... and I find Windows annoying in a very 'Eddie the Shipboard Computer' kind of way... and I don't like their bully-boy corporate monopolisation tactics... so, if I'm questioning the basis in fact of criticism of Microsoft, does no-one think that maybe they're talking a load of mooshine?

regards, Paul

mustique
01-06-2006, 01:51 PM
MS will probably use DRM to stop iTunes being successfull on the PC platform too.
There'll be lots of things that will help MS to monopolize even further on whatever it wants.
That's the major point of DRM for MS anyway. Everybody knows that nobody can prevent hackers to find ways to cheat DRM. Especially if it is made by MS. Doesn't mather if its hardware dependant.

Para
01-06-2006, 02:55 PM
MS will probably use DRM to stop iTunes being successfull on the PC platform too.
There'll be lots of things that will help MS to monopolize even further on whatever it wants.
That's the major point of DRM for MS anyway. Everybody knows that nobody can prevent hackers to find ways to cheat DRM. Especially if it is made by MS. Doesn't mather if its hardware dependant.

So you're suggesting that Microsoft's ultimate goal with Vista is to set up their own copy of iTunes and kill the competition completely completely forgetting the fact they've been touting now for years that WHAT MAKES OS POPULAR IS THE SOFTWARE AVAILABLE FOR IT? (caps for emphasis)

This thread is a constant :curious: -> :scream: -> :surprised -> :argh: -> :D -> :curious: for me...no offense meant.

mustique
01-06-2006, 03:13 PM
So you're suggesting that Microsoft's ultimate goal with Vista is to set up their own copy of iTunes and kill the competition completely completely forgetting the fact they've been touting now for years that WHAT MAKES OS POPULAR IS THE SOFTWARE AVAILABLE FOR IT? (caps for emphasis)

This thread is a constant :curious: -> :scream: -> :surprised -> :argh: -> :D -> :curious: for me...no offense meant.

Let's wait and see.
I believe that one of MS top priorities with Vista,
is joining/dominating the new music industry.
That's why MS is in bed with MTV now.

Beamtracer
01-06-2006, 03:40 PM
(Product registration) Again, Windows XP already has this, as does MS Office, MS Studio .Net, etc.

At the moment, people are used to registering software when they install it.

But it appears, with Windows Vista, that hardware components will also have to be registered, to confirm that they are compliant with Vista DRM. I don't think people are going to like that.

So, OK, you go out and buy a new Vista DRM certified hard drive. Then you put it in your computer, and you go through the registration process when you install it.

Then you put a CD into the optical drive, so you can 'rip' a track to the hard drive. It'll be like '2001: A Space Odyssey', and your hard drive will say "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that".

But it's my CD that I purchased that I want to listen to on my hard drive!!! :banghead:

Welcome to '2007: A Vista World'.

UrbanFuturistic
01-06-2006, 04:02 PM
Again: speculation, speculation, speculation.

Can I have some hard facts please sir?

regards, Paul

deli-rium
01-06-2006, 04:05 PM
So, how about custom drivers for certified hardware? Will it still work? It defines how the hardware works, right.
Another thing.
Can anyone tell me a piece of soft from Microsoft that works 100% as it should?
Since Bill can't assure us of a proper working software, how can he guarantee that New technology will work with so called "compatible-certified hardware"
I see lawsuits coming.

ShadowHunter
01-06-2006, 05:33 PM
You guys are blowing things out of proportion. Unless you're running on 6 year old hardware, you can upgrade to vista just fine (are you using 6yr old hardware!? And if so then what do you want vista for!?!). Beta1 runs just fine on my 2yr old workstation. Some of the paranoia posted in this thread would be certain financial death for MS if they really did what some suggested.

Vista comes with DRM, it does not enforce it. You are free to put into your computer whatever you want, it'll still work. Things that will not work is when some content provider decides to use DRM protection, then unless you have DRM from the hardware all the way up to the software, you will not be able to access the content. However, since most of the current hardware does not contain DRM, it will be financial suecide for the content provider as well. So the move to DRM protection will be gradual and over several years at best.

Again, vista does not force any content provider to use DRM or any customer to have DRM enabled hardware. It just provides DRM capabilities in aniticipation of the move towards it in the next few years. Also, this is not exclusive to Windows, AFAIK the next version of OSX will come with DRM. Including DRM is a result of catering to the industry's demand, both MS and Apple bent to the forces that be. I doubt that either of them are happy about it, since the negative publicity is certain to hurt their sales.

I'm not too happy with DRM either, because I don't think it's the right way to fight piracy. But I'm not going to shoot the messenger.

Hey but don't let me spoil your fun. Let the speculation & doomsday prophecising continue. :D

PhilOsirus
01-06-2006, 05:35 PM
So you're suggesting that Microsoft's ultimate goal with Vista is to set up their own copy of iTunes and kill the competition

Sounds like MS to me!

Oh and for those that don't believe MS would prevent the use of Blu-Ray drives with Vista, it's obvious MS will claim Blu-Ray is not safe and what not, as a justification to block it's use. It will do the same with various other hardware components too. I never had a problem swapping hardware before, I want my PC to be the way I want it to be, the OS should not dictate what hardware it will use and the hardware should not dictate the software I will use.

kaiser_pro
01-06-2006, 06:01 PM
Windows Vista:

Do all the stuff you can do now!*


*well maybe not everything, you'll need to buy a £2000 PC before we'll let you listen to music, and a new £1000 monitor before we'll let you look at videos. oh and if you want to be able to move your mouse in real time, you'll need a £300 videocard as well

Microsoft, what do you want to do tommorow? cos your going to have to wait that long.

Saurus
01-06-2006, 06:31 PM
Itís funny the amount of rants in this thread base on speculation. Itís even funnier that most of rants are from people who donít own Window PC.

ThomasMahler
01-06-2006, 07:03 PM
I just thought about this: Wouldn't it be cool if an operating system could save "sessions"?

Like, say, you're working on a character model. You've got your program opened, you've got your model loaded, you've got tons of references loaded into Irfanview, some are zoomed, some are panned to the right point, etc. You got Photoshop opened and you've done some color corrections on test-renderings without saving anything yet, but it's already 10pm and you wanna go home now.

The next day, you'll have to go over the same procedure again - You gotta load up all the apps, all the image data, all programs you had loaded, you gotta zoom into said references, maybe pan them a little, you forgot to save the color corrections yesterday, but you gotta work on a shader, so you gotta do all of that stuff again... Shouldn't the operating system save all this data for you? Think about your desk. You've done your work, you're going home, you're coming back and BOOM, all your stuff is gone. Wouldn't that suck? Oh yes, it would.

If there's something like that already available for WinXP, please tell me - Cause that'd actually be a blessing. In fact, if the cooling systems wouldn't be THAT loud in todays computers, I'd actually never turn a computer off anymore.

ThirdEye
01-06-2006, 07:07 PM
I just thought about this: Wouldn't it be cool if an operating system could save "sessions"?

Like, say, you're working on a character model. You've got your program opened, you've got your model loaded, you've got tons of references loaded into Irfanview, some are zoomed, some are panned to the right point, etc. You got Photoshop opened and you've done some color corrections on test-renderings without saving anything yet, but it's already 10pm and you wanna go home now.

The next day, you'll have to go over the same procedure again - You gotta load up all the apps, all the image data, all programs you had loaded, you gotta zoom into said references, maybe pan them a little, you forgot to save the color corrections yesterday, but you gotta work on a shader, so you gotta do all of that stuff again... Shouldn't the operating system save all this data for you? Think about your desk. You've done your work, you're going home, you're coming back and BOOM, all your stuff is gone. Wouldn't that suck? Oh yes, it would.

If there's something like that already available for WinXP, please tell me - Cause that'd actually be a blessing. In fact, if the cooling systems wouldn't be THAT loud in todays computers, I'd actually never turn a computer off anymore.

Isn't that winxp's hibernation?

P_T
01-06-2006, 07:08 PM
Oh and for those that don't believe MS would prevent the use of Blu-Ray drives with Vista, it's obvious MS will claim Blu-Ray is not safe and what not, as a justification to block it's use.

Yeap, sounds like it, this is quoted from that interview with Gates article in this thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=307442).

Q: Two next-generation DVD formats, Blu-ray and HD DVD, are fighting to become the next standard. Where does Microsoft stand?

A: The best thing would be if both products would adopt (features such as) the ability to work well in the Windows ecosystem. As yet, we've only seen that from the HD DVD format.

That doesn't mean that Blu-ray couldn't do those things. But some of the studios involved there have had concerns about the digital world.

agreenster
01-06-2006, 07:09 PM
Yes!!! Stuff like THAT would be so revolutionary and interesting and worth the wait. As it is, we are nit picking about this little stuff, when really most of the OSes do the same damn thing.

ThomasMahler
01-06-2006, 08:09 PM
I just wanted to try out hibernation, but if I'm trying to enable it and apply the op, Windows tells me that "the process cannot access the file because it's being used by another process" - I even restarted my system and stuff, but that didn't help. Anyone here who had the same problem?

xino
01-06-2006, 08:11 PM
This has to be one of the most entertaining "news" posts ever. The main post and some replies are actually news, while most of it seems like a bad issue of National Inquirer. And that is from both sides of the anti/love Microsoft debacle.

It's rather entertaining. Keep it up guys. ;)

chrisWhite
01-06-2006, 08:27 PM
So, yeah, when's Adobe coming out with Linux versions of their software again? Vista looks (visually) nice, but I'm not convinced I'm going to like it. I'm getting so sick of all this DRM BS. I still think that people who are going to affected are the legit users, while the people who pirate are eventually going to find some way to hack it.

Fides
01-06-2006, 10:12 PM
neI just thought about this: Wouldn't it be cool if an operating system could save "sessions"?

Like, say, you're working on a character model. You've got your program opened, you've got your model loaded, you've got tons of references loaded into Irfanview, some are zoomed, some are panned to the right point, etc. You got Photoshop opened and you've done some color corrections on test-renderings without saving anything yet, but it's already 10pm and you wanna go home now.

The next day, you'll have to go over the same procedure again - You gotta load up all the apps, all the image data, all programs you had loaded, you gotta zoom into said references, maybe pan them a little, you forgot to save the color corrections yesterday, but you gotta work on a shader, so you gotta do all of that stuff again... Shouldn't the operating system save all this data for you? Think about your desk. You've done your work, you're going home, you're coming back and BOOM, all your stuff is gone. Wouldn't that suck? Oh yes, it would.

If there's something like that already available for WinXP, please tell me - Cause that'd actually be a blessing. In fact, if the cooling systems wouldn't be THAT loud in todays computers, I'd actually never turn a computer off anymore.

Well, I don't know about saving, but I do this with VNC on linux all the time. Start a vncserver on a certain port, log in, open my applications and then just close the session when I'm done. When I log back in, everything is open as I left it, unless it crashed. Also, multiple sessions can be opened by different users simultaneously, so you can have 5 different sessions, all running different things at once.

I know this isn't what your talking about in the strictest since, but X Server is an inherently networked design so It's designed to serve client sessions graphically. I'm not sure, but I think Windows Terminal Services does the same thing.

yenvalmar
01-07-2006, 12:42 AM
this is the same as the plot of that movie. but where is our hero?

-Vormav-
01-07-2006, 12:56 AM
The extendable memory thing I'd never heard of, and sounds cool, although I question what sort of latency they'll have. I mean, Microsoft almost seems to be dictating PC design with some of these choices. That and the mini-screen for laptops makes me question what exactly they're aiming for with this release.

I wonder if the marketing campaign will boast compatibility with these technologies... that they just made up, and don't actually have any practical application.
Well, it obviously wouldn't be as fast as RAM. But that feature would be a very nice and welcome alternative to your HDD's pagefile when you've gone past the RAM limit.


And somehow I'm not buying into the whole idea that vista's implementation of 'certified hardware' is suddenly going to require the entire windows userbase to buy new hardware. Do you realize how quickly that would kill Vista's launch? What ShadowHunter has posted sounds far more realistic.

Originally posted by ShadowHunter
You guys are blowing things out of proportion. Unless you're running on 6 year old hardware, you can upgrade to vista just fine (are you using 6yr old hardware!? And if so then what do you want vista for!?!). Beta1 runs just fine on my 2yr old workstation. Some of the paranoia posted in this thread would be certain financial death for MS if they really did what some suggested.

Vista comes with DRM, it does not enforce it. You are free to put into your computer whatever you want, it'll still work. Things that will not work is when some content provider decides to use DRM protection, then unless you have DRM from the hardware all the way up to the software, you will not be able to access the content. However, since most of the current hardware does not contain DRM, it will be financial suecide for the content provider as well. So the move to DRM protection will be gradual and over several years at best.

Again, vista does not force any content provider to use DRM or any customer to have DRM enabled hardware. It just provides DRM capabilities in aniticipation of the move towards it in the next few years. Also, this is not exclusive to Windows, AFAIK the next version of OSX will come with DRM. Including DRM is a result of catering to the industry's demand, both MS and Apple bent to the forces that be. I doubt that either of them are happy about it, since the negative publicity is certain to hurt their sales.

kaiser_pro
01-07-2006, 01:24 AM
but your going to have to buy new hardware anyway? you need a meaty graphics card, and processor just to draw windows and look through the file system.

as for DRM, if you look into intel's "trusted platform" or what ever its called, its very similar to what MS put in the Xbox, (i.e. to get any software to run, you need to package your sooftware using a MS installer) and by proxy killing off all "free software" as noone is going to pay $5000 dollars just to distrobute a hobby

the selling point is this: only "approved" software will physically be able to run it, so therefore in marketing terms (i.e. for those poeple who dont know) its safe.

more to the point as we have seen before, MS will command that the trusted platform be installed into each new pc, if you dont then you'll not be able to sell longhorn with your PC.


it sounds far fetched, but unfortunatly its more or less going to be the case

Undseth
01-07-2006, 03:33 PM
Can anyone tell how much ram Windows Vista will support on a desktop computer?

I also wonder if 3d software today in general has a limit as to how much ram the computer can utilize for that software.

E_Moelzer
01-07-2006, 04:55 PM
Since there will be a separate 64bit version again (something I dont really understand), I guess that the regular version of Vista will be able to access just as much RAM as the current 32bit version of XP does (maybe the same as XP does with that registry trick that allows it to use 3GB instead of 2, but just maybe).
Well anyway the whole Aearo- glass UI thingy is pointless for me since I wont be able to run my OpenGL3d- app with Aero- glass activated.
CU
Elmar

Lone Deranger
01-07-2006, 09:20 PM
I just wanted to try out hibernation, but if I'm trying to enable it and apply the op, Windows tells me that "the process cannot access the file because it's being used by another process" - I even restarted my system and stuff, but that didn't help. Anyone here who had the same problem?

You probably don't want to hear this, but OSX will do exactly what you want. I don't even shut down my PowerBook anymore. It's got uptimes running into 30-40+ days. Only times I restart is when I run Software Update. I have all kinds of applications running. Safari, modo, iTunes, Mail, Picture Viewer, etc... When I'm done working I just close the PB screen which puts it to sleep and I walk away. Next day (or week or month for that matter) I come back, pop open the screen and within 1-2 seconds everything is back the way I left it. I cannot tell you how nice this functionality is.
In comparison, Windows Hibernation is a joke... don't even bother with it.

toonpang
01-08-2006, 12:20 AM
Check out these cool videos of the new innovative Windows Vista!!! I can't wait until the end of 2006 to have this functionality!! :rolleyes:

http://maclive.net/sid/134

http://maclive.net/sid/134

-Kevin

Saurus
01-08-2006, 12:45 AM
You probably don't want to hear this, but OSX will do exactly what you want. I don't even shut down my PowerBook anymore. It's got uptimes running into 30-40+ days. Only times I restart is when I run Software Update. I have all kinds of applications running. Safari, modo, iTunes, Mail, Picture Viewer, etc... When I'm done working I just close the PB screen which puts it to sleep and I walk away. Next day (or week or month for that matter) I come back, pop open the screen and within 1-2 seconds everything is back the way I left it. I cannot tell you how nice this functionality is.
In comparison, Windows Hibernation is a joke... don't even bother with it.

Hmmm....my tablet PC does that. I close the lid then it goes to sleep. I like Vista's slide show. It's like a pocket pc built into your laptop, so you don't need to wake up your computer to check emails and appointments.



http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/5/0,1311,sz=1&i=59867,00.jpg

xino
01-08-2006, 03:13 AM
Check out these cool videos of the new innovative Windows Vista!!! I can't wait until the end of 2006 to have this functionality!! :rolleyes:

http://maclive.net/sid/134

http://maclive.net/sid/134

-Kevin

In my opinion, anyone who states or even infers that Apple is innovative, really doesn't notice alot of third-party software out there. Apple has blatantly stolen from third-party developers alot more than Microsoft ever has.

But that's has nothing to do with what this topic is about so...

Back on topic.

toonpang
01-08-2006, 03:45 AM
In my opinion, anyone who states or even infers that Apple is innovative, really doesn't notice alot of third-party software out there. Apple has blatantly stolen from third-party developers alot more than Microsoft ever has.

But that's has nothing to do with what this topic is about so...

Back on topic.


I quess what your saying is almost true. Apple steals more from third party's because MS is too busy stealing from Apple to notice valuable innovative features (invented by the third party's) until Apple implements them.

Everybody folds innovative features and ideas into their products even if they didn't think of it first in any market, from toys to cars to shoes. Its how and when it is implemented that makes the difference. The point is Apple gets them to the market far earlier and more stable than MS ever has.

This is a thread about Vista, and its just insane how we heard these features being announced for OSX years ago!

How can you not find that funny!

-Kevin

xsitar
01-08-2006, 03:51 AM
So, yeah, when's Adobe coming out with Linux versions of their software again? Vista looks (visually) nice, but I'm not convinced I'm going to like it. I'm getting so sick of all this DRM BS. I still think that people who are going to affected are the legit users, while the people who pirate are eventually going to find some way to hack it.

drm is billyboy's & co's "1984". another step towards controlling/ monitoring you.

i don't know how much apple is using from thirdparties but i'm sure they don't ripoff as blatantly as microsoft does and probably apple even collaborates with thirdparties. in case of m$, i guess they don't care about innovation anyway. they do what they've always done, ripping off innovation.

but i'm sure apple's os-x will surpass their blatant copying again with more innovative things.

xino
01-08-2006, 04:59 AM
drm is billyboy's & co's "1984". another step towards controlling/ monitoring you.

i don't know how much apple is using from thirdparties but i'm sure they don't ripoff as blatantly as microsoft does and probably apple even collaborates with thirdparties. in case of m$, i guess they don't care about innovation anyway. they do what they've always done, ripping off innovation.

but i'm sure apple's os-x will surpass their blatant copying again with more innovative things.

Actually you're wrong. Look up the dates of products such as Konfabulator and Desktop X which came long before konfab.

Desktop X has made the use of "widgets" or "gadgets" for the Windows platform for years. Sadlly everyone seem to credit Konfabulator with the innovation which came much later.

Stardock Corp. has been producing programs and the like for the Windows platform much longer before OSX developers made them. Their company has been into desktop customization since OS/2 Warp.

digitalvoodoo
01-08-2006, 11:09 AM
Amusing thread. I’ve been somewhat baffled by all the – “No more changing hardware components”, “Need to buy a new monitor”, “Won’t be able to burn DVD’s”, “Won’t someone think of the children” posts. The reason is, I’ve been evaluating beta versions of Vista/Longhorn for the last few months as a possible platform for software I’m developing at work. I’ve been swapping hardware in and out with no problems what so ever (none of it “DRM” certified). Every monitor I’ve used with it works. Just for the record, it burns DVD’s fine too.

Seems all the claims stem from the rather specious reasoning of the author of the article (which talks about a particular type of DRM called HDCP) linked to in the first few posts. I set about trying to find something that disproved my practical experiences listed above. End result – I couldn’t find anything other than the HDCP stuff (which has no effect on any of the above). This would lead me to conclude that pretty much every “You won’t be able to do blah in Vista”, is, well, BS.

So, after wading through a few whitepapers, it seems the only nastiness relates to the playback of High-Bandwidth Digital Copy Protection (HDCP) media. In a nutshell, this means that any HDCP media you playback on your Vista PC, will be reduced to standard definition video, unless you have HDCP/DRM certified hardware chain. That’s it. While that, in itself kinda sucks, as far as I can tell, this is the only DRM feature present in Vista that doesn’t already exist in XP. Ergo, if you’re happy with XP, I’m guessing you’ll probably be happy with Vista.

While I believe that there are certain areas that Microsoft deserve to take some flack, I’m not sure this is one of them. I guess if you wanted to take a moral stance on the issue, it would be better to boycott the Content Owners of HDCP media (and I guess Intel, who developed it). I get the impression from my reading, that the Content Owners would prefer that you couldn’t playback their media on computers at all. At least it’s possible, albeit having to jump through the HDCP/DRM hoops. It seems that most consumer electronics stuff already employs this HDCP stuff, it’s only just starting to appear for computers. In a perfect world, I guess it would have been nice if Microsoft used their power to stand up to the Content Owners and look after the end users. However, I have no idea if this is a tenable scenario in this case.

Also, some people seem to be confusing DRM with the driver digital certification stuff. e.g. “The driver for the hardware you have added is/isn’t certified (i.e. the hardware manufacturer did/didn’t pay Microsoft money)”. They are, in fact, two completely different things. DRM is anything pertaining to digital rights management (funnily enough), the other is a certification process.

Frank Lake
01-08-2006, 12:58 PM
Vista comes with DRM, it does not enforce it. You are free to put into your computer whatever you want, it'll still work. Things that will not work is when some content provider decides to use DRM protection, then unless you have DRM from the hardware all the way up to the software, you will not be able to access the content. However, since most of the current hardware does not contain DRM, it will be financial suecide for the content provider as well. So the move to DRM protection will be gradual and over several years at best.

Again, vista does not force any content provider to use DRM or any customer to have DRM enabled hardware. It just provides DRM capabilities in aniticipation of the move towards it in the next few years. Also, this is not exclusive to Windows, AFAIK the next version of OSX will come with DRM. Including DRM is a result of catering to the industry's demand, both MS and Apple bent to the forces that be. I doubt that either of them are happy about it, since the negative publicity is certain to hurt their sales.

If this is so then won't MS be breaking INTERNATIONAL law by selling a peice of software that doesn't enforce DRM.?.? (MS versus the music&movies industry)

Since HD-DVD will be coming to the computer and since HD-DVD will not run as they should without a complete DRM system in place Enabling DRM automatically is a given. So for the people who will expect to use their system like they are used to spending several hundred dollars 'extra' for a "certified DRM system" will be the normal. Would game makers even continue to use the cd/dvd formats for games when a new Format promises DRM protection?

DRM is now standard method for anything media(Steam anyone!!) related and it's usage will only continue to grow by leaps and bounds. Just like the BS with certified drivers and cookies.

Beamtracer
01-08-2006, 01:24 PM
I've read there are many DRM devices in Windows Vista, but few of them have been included in the initial beta release that some developers have now.

So I guess what that means is that the current beta is not very DRM'ed, and not a good representation of what life with hardware DRM would be like. The beta testers won't get to see that until closer to the final release.

Denart
01-08-2006, 06:42 PM
that taskbar is SO apple!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/images/features/feat_UX_06.jpg

same with the "flipping 3D windows"
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/images/features/feat_UX_09.jpg

damn!

Saurus
01-08-2006, 06:49 PM
that taskbar is SO apple!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/images/features/feat_UX_06.jpg

same with the "flipping 3D windows"
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/images/features/feat_UX_09.jpg

damn!

http://www.rsl.co.nz/images/intel%20logo.gif (http://www.rsl.co.nz/images/intel%20logo.gif)

So Window...Damn!

UrbanFuturistic
01-08-2006, 07:14 PM
So Window...Damn!

Ahh, that must be why http://www.intel.com/homepage/nav/pix/logo.gif changed their logo :p

Actually, I quite like the new taskbar, it's like if Apple learned some retraint in Photoshop and it's about 800 times better than XPs default look... although, again, Sun already did 3D flipping windows you can rotate around in formation and write notes on the back of a while back (I did link to it somewhere around here). I'm wondering exactly how long it'd take me to duplicate that look for KDE :twisted:

regards, Paul

buckky
01-08-2006, 11:49 PM
i feel the good old days slipping away.. when you could with some effort tell windows what to do. i dont want more in an os, i want less!! when has microsoft ever made an os that you get home and think "now thats right/cool/slick/logical/functional/simple etc..." ?

edit - rant shortened, whatever..

xino
01-08-2006, 11:56 PM
While many people again credit Apple for the "taskbar look" and the genie window effects, these have been used on windows long before Apple used them. You can do the same thing with products from Stardock Corporation, yet again. Namely using the programs Windows FX and Windowblinds.

So much for the Apple innovation again.

If some people really looked into what's been out there for years, they would realise that Microsoft isn't copying anything from Apple, just incorporationg third-party programs into the OS much like Apple has done for awhile. Most Mac users tend to think Apple is the be-all-end-all in OS innovation. I wish they would get their facts straight at least.

Hopefully people won't claim the Mac OS has the first per-pixel window frames and animated desktop icons when they finally introduce them to the OS. Again you can do this with Windowblinds and IconX already on the Windows platform and have been able to do it for quite some time.

digitalvoodoo
01-09-2006, 01:37 AM
I've read there are many DRM devices in Windows Vista, but few of them have been included in the initial beta release that some developers have now.

So I guess what that means is that the current beta is not very DRM'ed, and not a good representation of what life with hardware DRM would be like. The beta testers won't get to see that until closer to the final release.

Read where? Iíd really like to look at it. I couldnít find jack about anything, save the HDCP stuff I mentioned. I considered the lack of DRM features in the betas a possibility (albeit it unlikely) as well, that's why I wen't hunting for info. Yet couldnít find a single bit of data to back all this DRM speculation up.

Until someone presents some hard evidence contrary to my finding to date, I will continue to believe that Vista (as far as DRM is concerned) is exactly the same as XP.

Iíve read enough whitepapers on this so far (Iím on holiday damn it!). So if anyone else feels like continuing the research, feel free. :)

Beamtracer
01-09-2006, 04:10 AM
Read where? I’d really like to look at it.
Hi DigiVoodoo,

The article I referred to (http://news.com.com/Hollywood,+Microsoft+align+on+new+Windows/2100-1025_3-5844393.html) just has a brief comment that the beta version of Vista doesn't have all the DRM that will be included in the final. However it gives no extra detail about what DRM will be added later.

(Credit to Michael Wolf for finding that article)

DRM by definition means restrictions. I'm not in favor of any DRM.

Even in the days of LP Records, people were copying their LPs to cassettes so that they didn't cause wear and tear on the vinyl. People make their own compilation party CDs out of their existing CD collection. I rip CD tracks to the hard drive so that I can carry the entire CD collection around in a laptop, or so I can stream it around the house.

There are so many legitimate reasons why someone may want to copy a disk. They don't have to be sinister reasons.

The only thing for sure is that after all this new hardware DRM is introduced, the disk pirates in south east Asia will still be pirating. The DRM won't stop them at all. It will just make things restrictive for the average person in the home.

Saurus
01-09-2006, 07:44 AM
Ahh, that must be why http://www.intel.com/homepage/nav/pix/logo.gif changed their logo :p

regards, Paul

U lost me dude.

majush
01-09-2006, 08:52 AM
I tried longhorn beta almost a year back and it was looking good and performing well... but wasnt able to install most softwares due to compactibility issues and device driver installation was a very long process...... Does the new beta version can be installed on a notebook? Has anyone tried working on it with network and wifi on? Will 1Gb ram be enough to run this version??? Hows the performace of beta so far???

Appreciate all advices and experiences with beta version...

and for guys who started worrying about a new "bug" from Microsoft and bashing them, I wonder why you all expect something from Microsoft even after watching growth of Ms for past 10 years with 5-7 differnt versions of "Bugs" from them which is more popular and user friendly than any other OS??? I love Windows more than anyother OS and I dont care about restarting my pc everytime it crashes... XP has never crashed for me in the past 2 years...
Thanks

tozz
01-09-2006, 02:13 PM
We'll probably won't see more than 10-20% of the planned DRM in the betas, it will all go into the final version later on, no need to scare away beta testers.

WazaR
01-09-2006, 03:06 PM
I want my PC to be the way I want it to be, the OS should not dictate what hardware it will use and the hardware should not dictate the software I will use.

MS has no place dictating what my "rights" are. No company should.

DRM by definition means restrictions. I'm not in favor of any DRM.

MS buisness policies are unethical, restrictive, and way out of bounds. End of story. No OS has any right, or should not have so, to tell me what, how, why, when, where, how often, or how many of anything I do on my computer. The effecitiveness of said software notwitstanding, these kinds of policies are unacceptable. And it is not a matter of "they are only creating a minor inconviniance...", it is a matter of they should cause no such inconviniance at all. I mean, only in the software industry is this kind of anti-consumer practices tolerated.

I will not use Vista. Ever.

Mauritius
01-09-2006, 03:24 PM
MS buisness policies are unethical, restrictive, and way out of bounds. End of story. No OS has any right, or should not have so, to tell me what, how, why, when, where, how often, or how many of anything I do on my computer. The effecitiveness of said software notwitstanding, these kinds of policies are unacceptable. And it is not a matter of "they are only creating a minor inconviniance...", it is a matter of they should cause no such inconviniance at all. I mean, only in the software industry is this kind of anti-consumer practices tolerated.
I will not use Vista. Ever.

Well said. 100% Ack.
And why would you? Name a single piece of software that is Windows only for VFX -- I name you an alternative running on an alternative OS.

.mm

Para
01-09-2006, 03:58 PM
I tried longhorn beta almost a year back and it was looking good and performing well... but wasnt able to install most softwares due to compactibility issues and device driver installation was a very long process......

Umm, wasn't Longhorn in mid-Alpha a year ago? Can you remember the build number?

agreenster
01-09-2006, 05:10 PM
http://maclive.net/sid/134

Anyone posted this yet? hehehe. Bill Gates talking about "OSX"

Not sure why the person making the video cropped his image so much. Makes it look claustrophobic.

Thalaxis
01-09-2006, 06:07 PM
PS. All you Mac users can stop looking so smug, Intel, nVidia and ATI are behind this platform bigstyle so it's coming for you too, whether you or Apple like it or not.

No, they're not the ones behind it... they're just playing along with the companies that own the content. Anyone who doesn't want to join in can pack up and go home now.

Unfortunately.

UrbanFuturistic
01-09-2006, 06:56 PM
By which I meant they're supporting it, not 'they came up with it' :p

regards, Paul

WQP
01-09-2006, 07:29 PM
If, in this horrible future, it ever comes to the point where I can't buy and play a DVD or whatever without a whole lot of hassle I will quite simply stop buying them, or renting movies etc. I think that is the way it will go for most people, especially the average consumer. If they can't perform what they feel is their "fair use" they just won't buy it. They'll sit around chatting with their friends "Man I bought Rocky XV on the new SuperHyperDiscs and the stupid thing wouldn't play so I just brought it back to Wal*Mart" or "Hey man, your copy of Rocky XV won't run on my TV how stupid!"

Now if they can pop it in and play and watch their movies as easily as a DVD they aren't going to care. Heck I'm not going to care. But if the MPAA or whomever goes to far and the DRM starts to interfere it will backfire commerically, big time. If the average user who isn't read up on what DRM is can't run Windows on his new 24" Widescreen monitor he just bought, guess what they will return Vista if possible, or get their computer buddies to downgrade to XP. If they then see that they need Vista to run Call of Duty XVII, they won't buy it because it won't run on that stupid Vista.

In short, the MPAA and RIAA needs to be damned careful with this stuff because at the end of the day, guess what we don't HAVE to have their products. We will find other ways to amuse ourselves. And heck maybe some studios will release stuff on their own without restrictive DRM.

Saurus
01-09-2006, 07:57 PM
This DRM stuff is going to be stuff down our throat and force us to use it. But I think itís just going to be limited to hardware players. I also donít think it just a Vista thing, itís going to be any OS that wants to play any media owned by the big studios. Wait long enough, Iím sure thereís going to be a crack to work around it. A good example is the PC game industry. For years and years game companies have been fighting illegal copies, but they have yet to succeed completely. You can pretty much get any crack for any games out there. Now if the big studio followed Valveís online stream registration then we might have a problem, but that direction would be a bit too extreme for any big studios.

slak
01-09-2006, 08:39 PM
I think I'll stick to XP until we know more about how far this BS with Trusted Computing will go.

brudney
01-09-2006, 09:05 PM
I don't know whether it's been posted already or not, but according to THIS PAGE (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/01/07/vista_requirements/) Vista is gonna need a lot of horsepower 'to be able to deliver on Microsoft's promises' (1GB RAM, ~3GHz cpu).
Now, I'm not sure if it's true, and if it's true I have no idea what it really means. Does it mean that it needs 1gb ram/3ghz cpu to be able to run comfortably and efficiently? Then again, 'efficiently' means something different to me, to a hardcore gamer and to a secretary using Word.
Does it mean the OS itself needs 1gb ram/3ghz cpu? Does it mean we need additional gig of ram and a second cpu to able to run something? :) wow.

In any case, Microsoft seems to have lost the idea of an operating system somewhere along the way.. I always thought operating systems were created for computers and not the other way round.
On the other hand, everyone complained about XP's requirements few years ago... so we'll just have to wait and see.

Frank Lake
01-10-2006, 06:14 AM
In short, the MPAA and RIAA needs to be damned careful with this stuff because at the end of the day, guess what we don't HAVE to have their products. We will find other ways to amuse ourselves. And heck maybe some studios will release stuff on their own without restrictive DRM.

Oh the company's that are bringing thier own type of DRM to market are doing so VERY carefully and slowly so they can make their form of DRM trendy. You can use the Apple iPod as an example of brilliantly doing so. In 5 years time over 50% of the products out there will have DRM built-in as a 'standard' feature and the people who have problems with them will be looked at like they are throughly "behind-the-times".

OR someone with alot of money will "buy-back" several of the fair-use rights that have been lost.

Beamtracer
01-10-2006, 07:35 AM
On UNIX based operating systems, they use a technique called 'sandboxing' to wall off the 'kernel' (that is the core) of the OS so it can't easily be attacked or corrupted by viruses and malware.

Now, tell me if I have got this right or wrong, but when I read about Vista it seems they are going to use sandboxing to build a walled garden around the media player applications that reside on the computer. I assume this is to stop the users (and people like DVD Jon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd_jon) getting in there and freely copying media (music, videos etc).

Anyone got any more info or opinions on this feature?

mlanser
01-10-2006, 09:27 AM
I don't know whether it's been posted already or not, but according to THIS PAGE (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/01/07/vista_requirements/) Vista is gonna need a lot of horsepower 'to be able to deliver on Microsoft's promises' (1GB RAM, ~3GHz cpu).

that's what i thought when i saw these pictures. looked a bit too fancy for actual average pc's with all that thumbnails, 3d stuff and glass patterns.:rolleyes:

Lone Deranger
01-10-2006, 12:54 PM
i dont want more in an os, i want less!! when has microsoft ever made an os that you get home and think "now thats right/cool/slick/logical/functional/simple etc..." ?

Yes... that would be so nice. To have an OS that just does what you want it to without dragging along all the bloatware you'll never have use for and will just make your hardware, slower, unstable and more vunerable. Almost like a solid state console that you turn on to immediately have your 3D and 2D tools readily available (or whatever tickles your fancy).

Having to upgrade your hardware by such a massive degree just to be able to keep running an OS just doesn't sound right. There is something to be said for specialization and streamlining.

ThomasMahler
01-10-2006, 02:15 PM
Jesus christ, this ugly beta UI seems to be final:

http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=32020

Man. I would have hoped that Microsoft would come up with something better looking this time. 5 years of work and we get an OS that looks like XP with a crappy skin.

Para
01-10-2006, 04:09 PM
On UNIX based operating systems, they use a technique called 'sandboxing' to wall off the 'kernel' (that is the core) of the OS so it can't easily be attacked or corrupted by viruses and malware.

Now, tell me if I have got this right or wrong, but when I read about Vista it seems they are going to use sandboxing to build a walled garden around the media player applications that reside on the computer. I assume this is to stop the users (and people like DVD Jon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd_jon) getting in there and freely copying media (music, videos etc).

Anyone got any more info or opinions on this feature?

It has no difference to sandboxing in UNIX systems (well, I'd assume it won't be as robust since it will be just "Microsoft's idea of sandboxing v1.0"). Your "walled garden" sounds like something that could be done but then again it has to have at least one gate that leads to the forest which connects all the gardens because if there isn't one, you wouldn't be able to see what's inside the garden.

And remember, while there may or may not be heavy protection for DRM stuff (I'd imagine this would mean obtaining licences over the internet to watch movies and such) none of those protections won't stop you from watching non-protected AVI:s. You're seriously making a way bigger problem of this than you should, we should first wait for the actual facts and then draw our conclusions instead of reading some biased websites and then go to the biggest forum one knows and shout out everything as a fact.

xino
01-10-2006, 05:41 PM
that's what i thought when i saw these pictures. looked a bit too fancy for actual average pc's with all that thumbnails, 3d stuff and glass patterns.:rolleyes:

Actually, I'm pretty sure almost anyone can run the GUI as it is. I have it running on a pII 450 with transparencies.

PII 450
384 Ram
Nvidia 5500


Don't always believe what they say the requirements are. I've run XP flawlessly ont his system for years when Microsoft even says it shouldn't run on it. And that's back when this only had 128 Ram and TNT 16 meg video card.

E_Moelzer
01-10-2006, 06:41 PM
LOL, the way that whole DRM- stuff goes and the way DVDs get more and more annoying (unskipable disclaimers, copy protections stuff and even trailers) I sometimes seriously consider unmothing my good ol VHS recorder ;)
CU
Elmar

Para
01-10-2006, 06:46 PM
LOL, the way that whole DRM- stuff goes and the way DVDs get more and more annoying (unskipable disclaimers, copy protections stuff and even trailers) I sometimes seriously consider unmothing my good ol VHS recorder ;)
CU
Elmar

Hurray for fast rewind! ;)

digitalvoodoo
01-10-2006, 10:02 PM
I tried longhorn beta almost a year back and it was looking good and performing well... but wasnt able to install most softwares due to compactibility issues and device driver installation was a very long process...... Does the new beta version can be installed on a notebook? Has anyone tried working on it with network and wifi on? Will 1Gb ram be enough to run this version??? Hows the performace of beta so far???

Appreciate all advices and experiences with beta version...

Thanks
The latest version Iíve been using is Build 5270, released December 2005 (64 bit version). My testing platform is a Dual 2.6 Ghz Opteron machine with 8 GB of RAM. Performance is excellent (as youíd bloody well hope). Iíve also installed an earlier build on an old P4 with 512 MB and performance seemed identical to XP on the same machine. I havenít tested it on a notebook, sorry (way too scarred to install it on my tablet at this stage).

The main thing Iím developing is centered on real time processing and presentation of HD video data and Iíve been really impressed by the performance Iím getting.

Re: compatibility
Almost all of the additional software installed on the test rig has been developed in-house, so I canít comment much on software compatibility. The few bits of 3rd party software Iíve installed seem to work fine though.

digitalvoodoo
01-10-2006, 11:41 PM
Hi DigiVoodoo,
The article I referred to (http://news.com.com/Hollywood,+Microsoft+align+on+new+Windows/2100-1025_3-5844393.html) just has a brief comment that the beta version of Vista doesn't have all the DRM that will be included in the final. However it gives no extra detail about what DRM will be added later.

(Credit to Michael Wolf for finding that article)


Thanks for digging up the link Beamtracer. Iím afraid I still going to have to remain sceptical though. As you stated, they are very non-specific about the mysterious DRM additions. I think theyíre just getting confused as to the nature of the Protected Video Path stuff, which is only there should protected content require it.

Everything they talk about under Putting Video Behind a Wall is inconsistent with my findings (or perfectly true if you read between the lines enough). I was quite interested to read this section, as this is actually directly within my sphere of experience with Vista. Lots of my code deals with video playback and processing, some of it reasonably low level. I certainly wasnít walled off from anything.
So, the following quote from the article (http://news.com.com/Hollywood,+Microsoft+align+on+new+Windows/2100-1025_3-5844393.html)
ďÖhigh security levels will block off avenues of programmer innovationĒ
Would appear to not hold true in my experience.

Anyway, I feel I should add that Iím certainly not a supporter of DRM measures, or any particular operating system, for that matter. Iím just trying the redress some of the alarmist and apparently speculative statements people are making (as I have actually used the operating system in question and like to think I have a reasonable idea what Iím talking about).

Looking at things from a totally different perspective, isnít Microsoft actually doing people a favour by implementing the HDCP DRM? As I pointed out before, itís a protection scheme that will be (Iím assuming you canít yet get HDCP protected media?) implemented by content owners. My understanding is that any system that doesnít adhere to the HDCP implementation, wonít be able to playback the media. So unless Microsoft implemented it, Vista wouldnít be able to playback the next generation HDCP protected stuff.

Beamtracer
01-11-2006, 12:24 AM
So do you think that "putting video behind a wall" or creating "sandboxes" to isolate video content will stop a professional pirate getting the content?

It may also be a reaction to software DVD players (like VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/), I think) that currently allow people to grab frames from a DVD. I assume that software like the VLC ([URL=http://www.videolan.org/vlc/) player may not be allowed to "play in the sandbox", so to speak.

digitalvoodoo
01-11-2006, 02:40 AM
Almost certainly not. This is my biggest objection to DRM measures, particularly the more draconian ones. You end up punishing legitimate users, making them jump through all sorts of hoops, while the product still gets pirated anyway (in an easier to use, non protected format).

I couldnít say for sure how hard it would be to circumvent the actual ďprotected pathĒ stuff in Vista. Probably not a walk in the park, I would guess. Nothing is infallible, though. The idea of ďsandboxingĒ has been around for a long time. I think the actual term came about in the early 70s, but Iím sure various implementations of it have existed ever since people started breaking into computers. As far as I know, people are still breaking into systems, sandboxed or not.


FWIW, in the case of HDCP, itís already been torn apart by academia, as it contains some fundamental flaws which can be exploited. Iím sure I remember seeing an analysis of it somewhere (anyone reasonably brushed up on their linear algebra should be able to follow it).

Beamtracer
01-11-2006, 02:48 AM
FWIW, in the case of HDCP, it’s already been torn apart by academia, as it contains some fundamental flaws which can be exploited. I’m sure I remember seeing an analysis of it somewhere (anyone reasonably brushed up on their linear algebra should be able to follow it).
That's astounding! HDCP has already been cracked?

For those not familiar, HDCP is the "copy protected DRM screen", the feature that will force everyone to replace their old High Definition screens with new High Definition screens before they can watch HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disks.

So, before the public have even got their hands on it, the security has been cracked. That's just proof of how ridiculous DRM is. In fact, it probably even benefits the crackers. Yet it hurts everybody else.

Para
01-11-2006, 07:11 AM
That's astounding! HDCP has already been cracked?

So, before the public have even got their hands on it, the security has been cracked. That's just proof of how ridiculous DRM is. In fact, it probably even benefits the crackers. Yet it hurts everybody else.

Well, copy protections in general have been a nuisance for end users over the last 10 years. Here's even a good example of something you know: Lightwave 3D's FPrime plugin. Easiest way to gain 30%(!) extra speed in some cases to rendering is to actually crack the software's multi-layered copy protection check.

I'm going to get Longh...Vista but I'll be making sure I'm not running any DRM stuff. Not because I'm against copyrights per se but I'm against the way most of them are enforced. I don't blame anyone for the inclusion of such methods in Vista but that doesn't mean I should like them. Plus I'm still a bit sceptical about this whole concept, I want to see it in action.

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