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Layer01
01-04-2006, 07:38 AM
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Lots of people have complained about this, and many more have disputed its existence. but the fact is that for myself and many others the viewport navigation in messiah is horribly slow.

This is NOT a open GL issue, it is not a display issue, it has to do with how messiah translates mouse movment to screen movement (as far as i can tell) so say if i move my mouse X units in Silo i will do a 360 around an object where as in messiah X units will only get me 45 dergees.

In this screen capture i have highlighted this issue by panning, zooming and rotating around an object and then doing the same in messiah.
the first software is Silo and the second is messiah (but i guess thats obvious ;) )
please note my mouse movments, in silo they dont leave the capture area, in messiah they have to shoot off way past it to get any decent rotation, so when my cursor disapears and then comes back onto screen i have just moved off the capture area.

scale of the object plays a part but this object has been scaled down already to not be massive in messiah. and the "-" and "+" keys are not the solution here either.
this is mouse movment to screen movment response or whatever you want to call it.


here is the link:
http://files.filefront.com/Messiah_navigation_speed_test/;4562100;;/fileinfo.html

let me know if you have similar issues, when thay occur, how you get around them (if you can) etc etc. i'm trying to get to the bottom of this once and for all and hopefully get a show of hands (posts i mean :p ) so we can get pmG to take notice of this problem.

DMack
01-04-2006, 08:18 AM
I've never really put my finger on it completely but I do find navigation in messiah to be MUCH slower than in LW. I find that I have to constantly change the grid size and zoom the perspective view - it's one of the things I'd most like changed in animate! I wrote a list of 'small' things a while back - I think Fred or Lyle joined in the thread and so I hope that they have done something about it for the next release.....

Layer01
01-04-2006, 08:21 AM
I've never really put my finger on it completely but I do find navigation in messiah to be MUCH slower than in LW. I find that I have to constantly change the grid size and zoom the perspective view - it's one of the things I'd most like changed in animate! I wrote a list of 'small' things a while back - I think Fred or Lyle joined in the thread and so I hope that they have done something about it for the next release.....

would you say the video is similar to what you experiance in messiah VS other apps? IE: much bigger mouse motion for a much smaller on screen movment?

Leebre
01-04-2006, 01:51 PM
I noticed the discrepancy when I first began using messiah but just chalked it up as one of its idiosyncracies.

Wegg
01-05-2006, 03:50 AM
Side by side it is a pretty dramatic difference. Would be nice to have a way of adjusting that as a preference.

Way to go demonstrating that. Hard to refute video. :-)

Grgeon
01-05-2006, 05:32 AM
Nice video there Layer 01. Glad to see you wanting to push messiah to be the best possible app it can be.

George

crossbones
01-05-2006, 05:39 AM
Hey guys! I am really sorry you have come across messiah this way. Try using the buttons in the upper right (Funny, Taron uses them so I use them and we haven't seen this as an issue so much). If you use the ALT key, it will only give you limited range and peform as your video shows.


If you really want to complain, I would love for it to respond and tumble like modo does.

Layer01
01-05-2006, 06:36 AM
Hey guys! I am really sorry you have come across messiah this way. Try using the buttons in the upper right (Funny, Taron uses them so I use them and we haven't seen this as an issue so much). If you use the ALT key, it will only give you limited range and peform as your video shows.


If you really want to complain, I would love for it to respond and tumble like modo does.

First off dont feel sorry, its not that we've come across it in anyway, this is how it IS.
the buttons in the upper right do work well, but i dont really like using them as my mouse is never realy up in that part of the screen and its a lot of extre movment, sure i guess i could get used to it, but seeming as i want messiah to streamline with my other apps i set it up to navigate like the other aplications i use.

And why on earth should the alt key limit the range of motion!? thats like saying animate with one eye closed, cause using two eyes only suppoerts a limited range/features (ok thats a bit ridiculous i agree lol).

this is just a problem that pmG need to fix not make excuses for, i'm not angry or blamming pmG, all software has its little wrinkles that need ironing out and thats normal, but it is a distinctive slow down (no pun intended lol) to myself and others (those who use ALT) workflow when it really shouldn't/doesn't need to be.

and i am not flaming pmG i am merly pointing out that this should be looked into and fixed...maybe in the new release *hint hint*

DMack
01-05-2006, 08:12 AM
Hey guys! I am really sorry you have come across messiah this way. Try using the buttons in the upper right (Funny, Taron uses them so I use them and we haven't seen this as an issue so much). If you use the ALT key, it will only give you limited range and peform as your video shows.


If you really want to complain, I would love for it to respond and tumble like modo does.

Try using those gadgets in the upper right hand corner with a wacom pen! - No go!

Edit: Thanks Layer01 for doing that video it demonstrates the difference nicely!

fwtep
01-09-2006, 12:04 AM
I'm still not seeing any real difference, either between ALT-mouse and icon rotating (or moving) or between LW and messiah. I've made a video that shows the two programs, but it also shows how little my mouse has to move, even when panning a full 360 degrees. There's a VERRRRRRY slight difference in both programs between using ALT and Icon, but it's so slight that it took me a while of testing to even notice-- it must be like a 5% difference, if even that. Ironically, in messiah it's the ALT that's faster, while in LW it's the icon that's faster.

When I work, as you'll see, the base of my hand stays planted and my fingers move the mouse. I don't know if that's how other people work or not, but what it means is that if I had to move the mouse far I'd notice it. In fact, my mousing area is only 7x8 inches and I don't even use all of that. I'd say that normally I don't move more than two inches in any direction (the amount I had to move in both programs to rotate 360 is more than I usually have to move for what I do). I wonder if the problem some people are having might be related to their mouse settings and not messiah. I do know that the Pointer Speed setting (I use the MS Intellipoint software and have an MS mouse) has a huge bearing on this issue. I have mine set all the way up (fast) and Enhance Pointer Precision turned on.

Here's my video:
http://www.projectmessiah.com/forum_stuff/messiah_navigation.wmv (2.4mb)
By the way, in the video the grid was set to 4m in both programs.

Am I misunderstanding the problem or doing something different than you guys are doing?

Fred

Wegg
01-09-2006, 01:48 AM
With my mouse setup, I have to move my mouse about 8 inches to do a full 360 in Messiah. And as Fred has demonstrated and I can confirm. . . that is pretty much exactly the same as in Lightwave's Layout. Modeler seems a touch faster. 6 inches. Wings3D and Animation Master both whip around much faster. 4 inches.

I must say I do prefer the . . . speed of Wings and A:M over Lightwave and Messiah. . .

Would it be hard to provide it as an option?

Layer01
01-09-2006, 02:44 AM
First of i'd like to say a big thank you to fred for actually getting back on this, it reasures me to know you're looking into it.
i have double checked and no its nothing to do with the mouse drivers (for me at least) the logitech mousware speed enhancments seem to be largly ignored by messiah.
secondly, i use a wacom :scream: so any mouse type speed hacks have no effect on people like me who use a tablet to work with, and there are many of us out there/in here ;)

I will upload screenshots of my settings and a video of my screen and hand moving later tonight, stay tuned :)

crossbones
01-09-2006, 05:20 AM
I use a wacom Intuos 1 9X12 and i use it in mouse mode and pen mode (depending if I am animating or not). The wacom tablet's settings very much affect the way messiah responds. The more you increase the sensitivity the easier it is with far less effort.


I would love for PMG to have an automated tumble like in modo. Where you can spin the view port very easily and fast.

shadowfork
01-09-2006, 05:39 AM
To make a 360˚in ...

Messiah = 8 in

XSI = 2.5 in

Silo = 2.5 in

Modo = 1.5 in (using the icons)

Modo = 3.5 in (using Alt key)

... having an option to adjust this setting in Messiah... priceless! :D

Layer01
01-09-2006, 06:29 AM
OK ladies and gentlemen, here it is, after countless man hours, years of research, and a budget bigger than King Kong. i am pleased to bring you...Messiah..the truth about viewport navigation :D
now for some notes:

What crossbones said is true, i can make the messiah rotation speed just like you will see it in the other apps, BUT there is a catch. It makes the mouse pointer so ridiculously fast it is impossible to actually use the application outside of rotating etc in it.
And i do not consider messiah to suport Pen mode in its current form as it is unusable in the viewport, and while it works fine in the GUI its just stupid that one should have to change between pen and mouse modes, just to rotate.

Mouse acceleration has no affect for me. it seems messiah ignors the logitech mouseware, as no matter how fast i set it, i see no improvment.

So you're all thinking why not just use a faster wacom pen speed? well in the demo i have set silo to mouse mode with the EXACT same speed settings i am using in messiah and you will see it is miles ahead in terms of speed. The speed should be regulated from within messiah and not rely on external settings.I for one happen to quite like the speed my wacom is set at atm too and have no desire to make it faster just so i can move around the viewport.

[EDIT]
Also i'd like to add that sure what i'm showing is overkill and i never move my hand like it is seen in the video, but it shows how one stroke in all the other apps is a zillion turn where as in messiah its barly one. ia agree fred i rarely o full 360's but the whole navigation, no matter how small i am going is slooOOOoow. seeing as one full stroke is not even a 360 imagine what i have to do to get a full 360.
This problem might be one more prevalent to the wacom users whihc is why its never been picked up by pmg. all i'm saying and all i want is for messiah to handle the navigation faster, i am never going to soom my models like i do in the vid, but i'm just demonstrating extremes. i think if pen mode was properly supported a lot of this would be fixed...i think.[Edit/]

I believe Messiah needs to do a few things.
1) regulate the speed from within the app
2) work/fix on the support for pen mode (just try rotating in pen mode and you'll see)
3) allow the user to speed up or slow down the viewport nav
4) probably some other stuff that i've just forgotten :p

some notes on the video:

The video show Both my screen and my hand demonstrating the speed in viewport navigation between (in order)
Silo, XSI, Messiah, Max and Maya (both Max and maya are demo versions..just want to clear that up, as it would seem a lot of software for one person to have :deal: ) The settings in messiah are as follows:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/Layer01/Screen01.jpg
and the wacom is set at:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/Layer01/20e99217.jpg
(for both Silo and Messiah, the rest are in pen mode)

Link to Video: Here (http://files.filefront.com/Messiah_viewport_speedmovzip/;4585595;;/fileinfo.html)

PS: the picture quality and sound are not great as i had to compress the file a lot to get the size down and i was also recording all this from my digital camera.

Nando
01-09-2006, 07:24 AM
the video was supposed to be a viewport comparison right???

becuase the link Download is a star wars parody??

aotf_hq.mov

or am i missing something becuase I skimmed through the thread???

:curious:

Wegg
01-09-2006, 07:33 AM
I got that too!

But then I tried again and it worked.

So. . . try again.

Anyway. . . . I think there is something to be said for the slower navigational speed of Messiah. Bear with me here. Imagine that your trying to lathe out a really nice chair leg and you start cranking on the little wheels to get the blade to start cutting into the wood. If the thing were set too fast you would just whip it right in and "crunch". . . not enough control. What you want is to be able to crank the little wheel and see the progress. . . of the blade as it moves in and out of the wood.

Now Messiah has taken this approach. Its like a lathe machine. You move into it slowly. Where Silo and Wings and others are all about getting you there as quickly as possible.

Now. . . why would you need that controlled speed when your just wanting to whip around what your looking at for a quick look? Not sure.

My vote is to speed it up or let us be able to adjust. But I already said that. . . didn't I?

shadowfork
01-09-2006, 07:41 AM
I get the star wars thingy too. I tried it again but still doesn't work.

Wegg
01-09-2006, 07:51 AM
In lightwave's Layout. . . the rotation icon in the top right is twice as slow as using Alt.

Maybe thats an option?

DMack
01-09-2006, 07:52 AM
Firstly Layer01 - Thanks for all your hard work on this issue :)

I think this brings up an interesting point - it seems that (and don't take this as a critisism) none of the PMG staff use wacom tablets for their day to day work - and it shows. The issue of the viewports/input going wild on occassion has not been fixed and several people (including myself) have over time grumbled about navigation speed....I've never put my finger on it but I think that Layer01 (what's your name?) has - it's another issue associated with wacom's. PMG can I ask one of you to switch over to a pen or at least be comfortable with it so that one of you is testing the application with a pen. I am guessing a LOT of users are using pens (I only bought messiah:animate when it started supporting pen use) and this is an area that could do with a quick fix.

Thanks.

PMG?

Layer01
01-09-2006, 11:01 AM
star wars parody!? lol thats odd.
ok here is what i do and it works for me (worked for wegg the second time, so i dunno)
1) click on the download now button.
2) you will then have to choose a server from the list
3) then wait for the hyperlink text saying, "click here to download" or something like that
4) then click on it and wait for a few secs and it should start.

I have no idea whay you'd get a star wars parody, was it funny at least :D
if the starwars thing keeps up let me know and i'll upload it somewhere different.
[Edit] what the hell i'll do it anyway ;) try this (http://rapidshare.de/files/10706837/Messiah_viewport_speed.mov.zip.html) [Edit/]

now, onto you wegg lol :twisted:

Picture if you will, a finly tuned washing machine, it washes dishes well, and it has always been reliable. its a little slow but thats ok, cause you love it.
now you're neihbour, he has a different washing machine, his is faster and you wonder how it can possibly do as good a job and so you dismiss him....
then one day you have a large dinner party full of clients, and you're runnig out of dishes, you try to make the machine wash faster but its cycle is just so slow, and the clients are getting angry and the bills are piling up and the neihbor's laughing at you and his dog peed on your couch :argh:
um....wait....lets try that again
OK seriously though, i have to disagree with you here, i think you will find that the most if not all the users or max, maya, xsi and silo users have no troubles controlling their scene and getting the right angles etc..
the speeds which i show in the video are NOT the speeds at which i would ever handle goemetry or a scene. they are that fast because when draging my pen accross the wacom from one side to another, the motion of the pen is translated into a zillion rotations, the point being you'd never really scrub your pen like that, ever.
It does however show that the distance on pen to distance on screen in all other apps is much less than in messiah. i'm all for control but i can have my stuff going a bit faster than a snail and still maintain my grip on it ;) sure messiah can give you that one perfect angle, its just that in any other app you can get your model in that perfect position a lot faster. and that really is the key.

not sure if its only wacom users, but i'd be good to hear back on who uses this soft with a wacom and if they get the problem. i think George said he gets the same symptoms in the demo and i think he mouses. i know my mouse doesn't go any faster, it is a bit of a mystery...i hope pmG can sort it out though, i think a slider that makes the speed in the viewport increase from within the soft would be a good idea imho.

thanks DMack i'm glad i'm not just ranting to myself here :D
btw my name's Peter :wavey: *whispers* its right under my avatar lol ;)

Nando and shadowfork, sorry about the weird video thing, i dont understand how that happened (damn they are on to my secret "get them to watch starwars parodies" plan) :p

keep the feedback comming :wip:

fwtep
01-09-2006, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the video Peter, this one was more helpful to me than the original one with just the screen.

It looks to me like the difference between messiah and the other apps is simply that messiah is treating the rotation as a normal pen movement, in other words, it's matching the screen to the relative position of the pen on the pad. If you look, when you rotate the object it essentially always points at the equivalent position of the pen on the pad (as if the pen is physically manipulating it in the real world), whereas the other apps don't do that. So it's not that messiah's is "accidentally" too slow, it's that it's doing it "right" but what it's doing right is a different thing than the other apps are doing.

I don't know anything about programming, either in general or specifically in regard to pens, so I don't know if this is a quick fix or something that can be set as an option. But let me know if my analysis seems correct to you and I'll pass the info along.

Cheers,
Fred

Wegg
01-09-2006, 04:29 PM
Fred I think you need to ignore the fact that he is using a tablet because all of my tests perfectly mimic his experience just with a regular old wire mouse with no acceleration software. Its literally as simple as the other apps covering more distance with less mouse motion. Nothing else.

Oh and. . . all this would probably be much quicker to work out and less "out in the open" if you'd just pop over to IRC. #messiah3D . . . irc.freenode.net

Layer01
01-10-2006, 02:17 AM
Oh and. . . all this would probably be much quicker to work out and less "out in the open" if you'd just pop over to IRC. #messiah3D . . . irc.freenode.net

hahaha, pimping the service, i like it :cool:

Thanks fred for your feedback, i do agree with what you say, it does seem the pen's movement is being translated strangly...or not strangly (depending on how you see it ;) )
here are the facts that i can muster atm.

1) wacom "pen mode" does not work properly in messiah, therefore i have to use Mouse mode, meaning the pen is acting like a mouse and the tablet is not being mapped to the screen. so it technically shouldn't be anything on the wacom's side

2) I can speed up the Pen speed, by adding pen acceleration and changing the speed settings (see the wacom settings image in my previous post) so mouse accel will affect the rotation/navigation speed in messiah but makes the mouse so fast in any otehr task it is unusable.

3) the logitech mouseware driver seems to have no effect, no matter the speed or acceleration i see no speed gain. I am guessing that it is not being "seen" by messiah.

not sure if i have tablet mode switched on or off atm, on that side note it'd be extremely useful if there was some way of telling if you had turned the feature on or off. But i will check and see if somehow that is affecting it.

fwtep
01-10-2006, 04:28 AM
Sorry guys, I've been busy today. I'll try to pop onto IRC some time tomorrow.

Fred

DMack
01-10-2006, 08:05 AM
Whoa! Layer01 - You have got your input set to pen - please tell me that!

I use Pen in pen mode with messiah:animate and it works mostly - just that occassionally (a few times per hour) it just freaks out and acts as if it's popped back to 'mouse mode' and therefore goes horribly wrong with the pen. Aside from that....yeah, the navigation is, as we're discussing, slow. You should be able to work in pen mode though (goto key assignments, find the pen mode and asign to a key...press that key and it wil be confirmed in the little command box (bottom of screen).

I'm not on IRC (here's an admission - don't even know how to 'get on it' or even what it looks like!! !!). So could someone let the rest know what the upshot is of what Fred says when he gets back to you - thanks.

Layer01
01-11-2006, 05:57 AM
hey Dmack :) i can't use the pen mode in messiah as i get the most horrible control in viewport. The pan is unusable, as it seems to take the cursor jump (by jump i mean what happens when you move the pen to annother part of the tablet by lifting it up and putting it down) as movment and sends whatever selected flying. the rotation is also jumpy and it also seems to register the jump as a mouse movment and its like 2 steps forward one step back when rotating anything.

here is a vid showing what pen mode looks like, 440-ish kb. get it here (http://files.filefront.com/Pen_modeavizip/;4595308;;/fileinfo.html)

Dmack: these links might be of use (you should pop online if you can)
http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html
http://www.ircbeginner.com/ircinfo/tutorials.html
IRC clients
http://www.mirc.com/get.html
http://www.xchat.org/
http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/Easy_IRC/943019897/1

NEWS FLASH!

Mhen on IRC has come up with a partial solution to the slow viewport speed!!
seems that if you use logitech drivers you have to update your drivers so you get an extra option called disable acceleration in games and checking this has a significant effect on the performance in messiah, check it out. Driver can be found here (http://drivers.soft32.com/driver/download-Logitech_MouseWare-24499.html)
But this only helps tablet users if they use mouse mode, pen mode is still just as slow, and gives (me at least) the problems i posted above.
see the improvmenthere (http://files.filefront.com/better_speedavizip/;4595332;;/fileinfo.html)

Hope some of this info helps you guys at pmG to solve this problem once and for all, i still think the nav speed could be faster but Mhen's solution helps enormously :thumbsup:
But a slider within messiah to speed up navigation would be a great idea and would make everyone happy, also the issues with pen mode needs to be fixed to.

DMack
01-11-2006, 08:17 AM
Hi Layer01,


Thanks for the info, I'll have a look through that. With regardes the pen mode - have you tried (I know this sounds strange) maximising messiah? I tend to find that when it goes loopy on my, I have to switch to another app and then switch back.....makes me think that certain devices in messiah makes the pen mode switch off....Worth a try - pen mode is soooo much nicer than mouse mode...

Layer01
01-11-2006, 10:05 AM
Hi Layer01,


Thanks for the info, I'll have a look through that. With regardes the pen mode - have you tried (I know this sounds strange) maximising messiah? I tend to find that when it goes loopy on my, I have to switch to another app and then switch back.....makes me think that certain devices in messiah makes the pen mode switch off....Worth a try - pen mode is soooo much nicer than mouse mode...

would you say that when your pen acts strange it looks like the symptoms i am getting?
i'll try your suggestion and see if it helps.
do you find the mouseware fix helps you? i'd be curious to see if someone without a logitech mouse who installed the mouseware would get the speed boost. i do know that the mouseware will work with none logitech mice.

DMack
01-11-2006, 01:16 PM
Hi Peter,

No, for me it works fine (other than the slow navigation) but occassionally goes wild - exactly as if the mode has popped back to mouse so actions are wildly exaggerated.

Regards the mousware etc - I am mid production and so am unable to install sw 'just in case' - it's just not worth it for me - my timetables are tight enough without potential self inflicted issues! ;)

I hope we're going to get some action on all this!

Layer01
01-13-2006, 05:25 AM
thats really odd isnt it :shrug:
i get the crazy motion when i have pen mode on and "tablet input" inactive in messiah, but i get the weird jerky motion when tablet mode is on and pen is on. verrryyy strange.
so i guess for now i will stick to mouse mode in my wacom, seeing as that works.
But if you could pass all this on fred to the coders maybe they can make some sense of it all.
thanks

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