Newtek & Luxology..

[dotTom]

Well since we're playing make believe... I rather think given the age and hairyness of the Lightwave sources that in such a situation Newtek would look to reuse IP, patient and domain knowledge rather than try and get re-use at a source level.

As for would I continue - hmm, a big part of why I like modo is Lux's grown up attitude towards its users. I like the fact that I can install modo on my workstation and laptop (so long as I'm not using both at the same time). I like the fact I don't have to go through some "send us a DNA sample" activation process and lastly I love the modo community and the way Brad and other engineers take an active part in the forums over at Lux's place. I can't help feeling that modo would loose something (not least focus and drive) if it was taken under the wing of a larger company. I'd rather trust Lux' to know how to plug into other peoples pipeline than modo become the property of some shop that believes it can sell you the whole pipeline from end to end.

[HarverdGrad]

Hi dotTom,

YES! This is all make believe and speculation :)
You just described mostly how I feel (I'm just not articulate enough to put into words). In addition, Modo just feels like a "magical app", like ZBrush, MotionBuilder, Corel Painter. They all ooze with innovation.

My reason for posting this is that I was a big fan of MotionBuilder. That application was a work of art and it had a lot of momentum behind it. Then it was picked up by Alias and it seemed to have died. I upgraded once, and then went back to the last version done by Kaydara before they were purchased.

I guess I just would hate to see the same thing happen to Modo. It's why I'm really hoping Modo 2.0 is all that and more!

[Mylenium]

If Newtek were to purchase Luxology and replace the Lightwave Modeler portion with Modo, would you as a consumer continue to spend money on Modo upgrades?
Concerned & curious (not trolling)

I would not continue to use modo. This is an absolute no-brainer. NewTek's rigidity is what drove Brad & Co. away in the first place and they won't come back. without those guys, modo would get stuck just the same as LW. They'd buy some code and then fiddle with it without really improving things or taking a fresh view at old concepts which in my view is the one thing that makes modo stand out of the crowd in many areas. Though I'm sticking with LW for the time being, I don't trust NT 5 centimeters in front of my nose in terms of development and I'm quite convinced they would mess up things even if they had ful lacces to Maya's along with Mental Ray's source code. You know, it's the evil "the NewTek-touch".

Mylenium

[Cheers]

No, I wouldn't be interested in supporting Modo if they was bought out. Apart from Modo being a great modeller (and soon a great renderer/texturer/3d paint package) the other great aspect of being a Modo user is feeling part of the Lux family...even as a "ordinary, non-descript" customer I feel that I'm supported by the company and my interests are being taken care of...I'm sure if Luxology were bought out (and I can never see it happening), that aspect would be lost.

Cheers

[Nemoid]

I think its better for Lux to just stand on its own and develop and innovate.
In any case i don't think Lux would like to be bought by the same company they left.

Anyhoo if they had to be bought by some company, like it happened to Alias, i hope into a solid and marketing aggressive one. a good product deserves to be well financed and marketed.

What i actually hope is that Lux can follow a path similar to Pixologic one. :)

[bvsingh]

If lightning were to fall on HarverdGrad and he being incinerated , would you as a CGTalk member continue to visit CGTalk?
Concerned & curious (not trolling)









.....heeheee joking.

[HarverdGrad]

If lightning were to fall on HarverdGrad and he being incinerated , would you as a CGTalk member continue to visit CGTalk?
Concerned & curious (not trolling)

.....heeheee joking.

haha.. I knew this would probably ruffle some feathers.
No worries though.. sticks & stones :)

[swampthing]

I wouldn't support modo any longer because it would cease to be innovative at that point and languish in obsolescence like lightwave is. Besides the modelling portion of lightwave isn't really lightwaves problem overall and out of everything in lightwave the modeller is probably the only portion that really holds up to modern software. I mean yeah it still lacks true edges but you can live without that if you have to, same with ngon support. Both are nice but you could live without it. If you replace modeller with modo you still have a halfway obsolete program as it's really the layout portion of lightwave that needs MAJOR improvements. I mean organic animation and rigging in lightwave? UGH! The renderer is still pretty decent over all though it's getting a little long in the tooth.

But really the main reason i wouldn't support it is because the guys at modo seem to really be innovators, if you lose that then what do you have?

[fez]

I like Modo, I like Luxology, and I hope they never have anything to do with Newtek again. At the same time, I like Lightwave, I like Newtek, and I hope they never have anything to do with Luxology again.

It is like having two girlfriends. Lots of fun unless they meet.

[Aaron Kent]

Steve Jobs plays the part of deux ex machina, swooping down in full operatic costume, scoops up both companies and disappears in a crack of thunder and stink of brimstone. hehehheh.

AK

[nvvm]

I like Modo, I like Luxology, and I hope they never have anything to do with Newtek again. At the same time, I like Lightwave, I like Newtek, and I hope they never have anything to do with Luxology again.

It is like having two girlfriends. Lots of fun unless they meet.LOL :applause:

[TrexGreg]

How about Lux buy LW from Newtek, rip the good things and licenses and then toss it, so there is no conflict anymore?
Hehh....

[mcewan7]

How about if Luxology buy out/hire/merge with Worley and the PMG Messiah guys?

;)

Mmmm, nice thought...

[Mike RB]

How about Lux buy LW from Newtek, rip the good things and licenses and then toss it, so there is no conflict anymore?
Hehh....

What would the point of that be? They've already rewritten the good stuff, and being branded under a new name helps studios that don't like Lw because they gave it a try back at LW6.0a maybe take a second look. It's much better that there is no association between Lux and Newtek / modo and Lightwave3D.

Mike

[Nemoid]

Since the situation is that Lux and NewTek are actually separate and they'll have no relationship between each other, it will be way interesting to see them in direct strong competition when 301 will be released.

Competition is good. i think it will bring great things on both sides.


Sorry : slightly OT
another thing that comes to my mind is that its time for 3D apps to become less technical and way more artistic where this approach is needed and can fit (basically, all except archiviz and jobs that require micron precise modelling )
An app like ZBrush reached to establish a great step in this direction, but due to its possibilities Modo could become a fantastic candidate in this process.
if we think to this a bit, currently what we see in all 3D apps (Modo too) are applications of technologies invented in early '70-80. Quite nothing more. Well, now we are in 2006 so maybe some '90 tecnology application could be required. :)

[dotTom]

another thing that comes to my mind is that its time for 3D apps to become less technical and way more artistic where this approach is needed and can fit (basically, all except archiviz and jobs that require micron precise modelling )

I do wonder about how far this can really be taken, whilst there are improvement in workflows that can be made, and different (I won't say "better") approaches to shading etc I don't think 3D can ever really become as "easy" to grasp as 2D - particularly if your definition of "3D" includes animation and not just a still image. The more automation or smarts you build into a package the more that the output of said package tends to look "samey" - I think you can see a tendency for this today with some ZBrush stuff (note please I say some).

It's really very hard to apply AI to art tools without taking some control away from the artist.

[m.d.]

i don't think Newtek would be in a financial position to buy Lux.....

And I don't think LW and Modo will be much competition for each other.....Modo has them beat hands down.
I am not a disgruntled LW owner, I am just very impressed by Modo's future plans.....if they implement all the animation aspects to the same degree as the rest of the app, there competition will be Houdini and Maya.....except more artist freindly.

[Nemoid]

I do wonder about how far this can really be taken, whilst there are improvement in workflows that can be made, and different (I won't say "better") approaches to shading etc I don't think 3D can ever really become as "easy" to grasp as 2D - particularly if your definition of "3D" includes animation and not just a still image. The more automation or smarts you build into a package the more that the output of said package tends to look "samey" - I think you can see a tendency for this today with some ZBrush stuff (note please I say some).

It's really very hard to apply AI to art tools without taking some control away from the artist.

I'm not exactly talking about automation, but more about workflow, and tools possibly based onto new technologies and ideas that can avoid very complex things, using a different approach.

example : if you watch some recent studies you can see that there's a little app called Teddy through wich you can build meshes just like drawing. you can also 3D paint the simple figures you create. the app is little, works for simple figures and has some quirks to be really useful in production, but is very clever. its based onto a cool idea and could be developed further. this is an example of new technology applied and there are many waiting for application.

Modo has a clever workflow yet, even if it could obviously been improved so that's why i'm saying it can really innovate in the field of 3D content creation. Automation is not exactly what i was talking about.

[Qexit]

Steve Jobs plays the part of deux ex machina, swooping down in full operatic costume, scoops up both companies and disappears in a crack of thunder and stink of brimstone. hehehheh.

AK...followed soon after by the total disappearance of the PC and Linux versions of both Modo and LW accompanied by another crack of thunder and a big stink (brimstone not required this time :twisted: At least the Mac community would have something to smile about :twisted:

[yog]

As far as I'm concerned it would be an absolute disaster.
Currently it's my number one gripe with Lightwave.

Over the last few years we have seen what happens when Newtek purchase some very good technologies and "attempt" to integrate them. It's absolutely horrible.

A few years ago I would have recommended Lightwave to anyone wanting to start learning 3D, it was simple, well thought out, and didn't take too long to learn and start producing with. These days I cerntainly wouldn't. The program has become so fractured with so many similar, but different tools and so many tools that don't even attempt to work with each other. Because of LW's mainly 3rd-party development path in recient years a lot of tools don't look or even function in similar ways. Not good.
If Newtek were ever going to aquire any technology from Luxology, an integrated workflow should be number one on the list.

[Nemoid]

agree on that . the main thing Newtek should do is to reunite all similar tools in unique tools with a good option panel. then allow tools with different options active to be binded to keyboard shortcuts. this would make the UI easier for users and speed up workflow

[Mylenium]

...followed soon after by the total disappearance of the PC and Linux versions of both Modo and LW accompanied by another crack of thunder and a big stink (brimstone not required this time :twisted: At least the Mac community would have something to smile about :twisted:

Well, forgive them. Mac users still seem to think that Steve J. is a messiah for good. They simply don't see that Apple is turning into the very evil they have always tried to fight. Like Pete Tong so fittingly says in his Interview over at Wired: "I've always been a Mac user, but as Apple grows more powerful I get the sense that there's a little bit of Microsoft in there. The way it's so controlled from the center. ..." That pretty much says anything.

Mylenium

[mummey]

Well, forgive them. Mac users still seem to think that Steve J. is a messiah for good. They simply don't see that Apple is turning into the very evil they have always tried to fight. Like Pete Tong so fittingly says in his Interview over at Wired: "I've always been a Mac user, but as Apple grows more powerful I get the sense that there's a little bit of Microsoft in there. The way it's so controlled from the center. ..." That pretty much says anything.

Mylenium

[reality distortion field]

We got to where we are by having that kind of control on our products. Microsoft tries to be us.

[/reality distortion field]

[Beamtracer]

This is a pretty whacko thread, but I'll join in anyway :D

Over the last few years, many people have felt that Lightwave needed a rewrite from the ground up, as there were just too many things that needed patching over. Newtek clearly stated that they did not believe Lightwave should be rewritten. Newtek feels they can patch it bit by bit.

So there's the conflict with the former development team, headed by Hastings and Ferguson, who are now with Luxology.

The former development team felt that for Lightwave to progress into the future, it needed a rewrite. Newtek said no. Development team walks out to form their own company so they can see their vision come to fruition.

So Luxology is now building the application that they previously wanted Lightwave to become.

Some Lightwavers feel threatened by this, for some reason. Thing is, those Lightwavers who agree with Newtek's philosophy... that Lightwave does not need a rewrite... get what they want. They still have Newtek to give them the old Lightwave 3D with the occasional incremental updates, but no rewrite.

Those who believed that Lightwave was getting long in the tooth and did need a rewrite... also get what the want. They get modo.

So everyone should now be happy.

Also, there's absolutely no way that Newtek would buy Luxology, or visa versa. It won't happen.

[Nemoid]

Not to defend anyone,I've personally always been for a strong rewrite of Lw.

But at the same time i don't think Nt could stop delivering upgrades to Lw, retire for, say ,3 years , and rewrite it from scratch. This from an ecoomic POV.

Economically this could have been a total and rapid loose of users, because Lw wouldn't have any evolution for a long time.

Incidentally, remember how Softimage faced many probs with XSI developing? and they economically had alot of founds to do that. They initially messed up with the Sumatra project, and afterwards, XSI 1.0 was somewhat useless however. And costed very very much.
They could update a bit Softimage, to keep the transition between Softimage and XSI smoother. however. At the end, this work turned out to be a good choice, but still XSI has not the same consideration that Maya has.

For Lux it was different.It is different. Lux is a new company so they had to write Modo from scratch. They are making it, in 3 years and so. They in fact haven't yet completed their app that will be somewhat complete with 301 and beyond.


If Nt is actually rewriting Lw in steps as they say, changing parts of the core until it becomes modern, it can be a good path.If they will not be able to do that, well, the fear is they'll loose.

Actually,things started to change during the 8.x cycle in Lw core, and now parts like rendering engine and mesh editing are in separate aread sto allow both Layout and Modeler to access to them at the very same time. These are steps in the right direction.

What i hope to see its a strong evolution in Lw 9.0, especially in the core as it seems to be.

I dunno if Lw 9.0 will be a revolution, but should be at least a really good starting point, just because Lux is doing a wonderful job with Modo, and other apps like C4D, XSI and even Blender aren't waiting for sure.

Now to return IT, Lw inheritance in Modo is obvious : Allen and Stuart originally coded Layout and Modeler! Don't forget this.
And Its a good starting point, and they're going beyond it.

Only, since apps like Maya, Max, XSI , C4D , Blender, Silo, Hexagon applied some good ideas both in workflow and tools, the inspiration should be at first in what's good and efficient in all these apps, all ideas that could fit in Modo, taking into account workflow and power are the things to look at.
Then, of course, Allen and Stuart surely have their own good ideas in what animators would really love to see into an innovating 3D app.

[Mylenium]

Not to defend anyone,I've personally always been for a strong rewrite of Lw.

But at the same time i don't think Nt could stop delivering upgrades to Lw, retire for, say ,3 years , and rewrite it from scratch. This from an ecoomic POV.

Economically this could have been a total and rapid loose of users, because Lw wouldn't have any evolution for a long time.

Nope, I disagree. It would have been quite possible with focussing on the right things and outsourcing. They could easily have handed over the existing code to some guys in India and let them do some cleanup and merging redundant code (plugins) which to a large degree is LW's problem. That alone should have mad a difference and a much more powerful app. This could also have incorporated less challenging things such as adjustable interface colors and use of OpenGL which are based on global libraries.

New features could still have been added based on the existing plugin structure, but with futuure development in mind which means that things would have been done modular and clean so the plugins could easily be adjusted and re-compiled once the new core structure was in place.

While all this had happened, NT's core development team indeed would have had time to lay out a new ground structure for a new LW. There's no need to re-invent the wheel and they should have kept the good things anyway, but just like modo this should have led to a more dynamic and configurable app - not every single button hard-coded but rather many things being based on scripts and config files just as in modo or Maya.

LW's problem is its rigidity, not so much its feature set (except for a few things). There are actually many powerful functions and plugins, bujt since they are either deeply buried inside LW's clunky interface or cannot be used in any combination, a lot of the potential power evaporates before even coming into play.

Mylenium

[fez]

Lightwave 9 has too much potential to dismiss. The new team has taken on the thankless task of cleaning up the mess of code the Lux guys made. If 9 sucks, so be it, but 9 will be the first release that the new team can call their own. As such, WAIT TILL 9 is released before passing judgement.

I am not convinced that the Lux crew left for noble reasons, but I'll leave that alone.

Newtek's entire team left them high and dry! EVERYBODY who was familiar with the core code and had been developing it jumped ship. Newtek was literally stranded.

"They still have Newtek to give them the old Lightwave 3D with the occasional incremental updates, but no rewrite."

Beamtracer, I agree that Lightwavers have the best of both worlds in some ways, but Lightwave 9 IS a rewrite. Newtek was not satisfied with the crappy core that the Luxology developers left them and have gone to great lengths to systematically replace it without simply freezing development.

I just hope they both support each other's edge wights, because I, for one, will be using both Modo and Lightwave.

[trygve]

Newtek clearly stated that they did not believe Lightwave should be rewritten.


This is simply not true.

NewTek has stated that LightWave needs, and will get, a core rewrite, but they will do it as a parallell changeover. They have also explained why:

"If we were to have followed what others have done (max, wavefront->Maya, xsi) we would go dark for a long period of time, forcing users to wait years for the results. We do not view that approach as practical, given market conditions, and the fact that our customers have been very loyal to us. So, by using the parallel changeover model, we can make available new technologies earlier in the process, far earlier than they would have been with any other approach (as you will see at SIGGRAPH, where we have overhauled and upgraded some major core systems.)"

(http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php)

[Nemoid]

Nope, I disagree. It would have been quite possible with focussing on the right things and outsourcing. They could easily have handed over the existing code to some guys in India and let them do some cleanup and merging redundant code (plugins) which to a large degree is LW's problem. That alone should have mad a difference and a much more powerful app. This could also have incorporated less challenging things such as adjustable interface colors and use of OpenGL which are based on global libraries.

New features could still have been added based on the existing plugin structure, but with futuure development in mind which means that things would have been done modular and clean so the plugins could easily be adjusted and re-compiled once the new core structure was in place.

While all this had happened, NT's core development team indeed would have had time to lay out a new ground structure for a new LW. There's no need to re-invent the wheel and they should have kept the good things anyway, but just like modo this should have led to a more dynamic and configurable app - not every single button hard-coded but rather many things being based on scripts and config files just as in modo or Maya.

LW's problem is its rigidity, not so much its feature set (except for a few things). There are actually many powerful functions and plugins, bujt since they are either deeply buried inside LW's clunky interface or cannot be used in any combination, a lot of the potential power evaporates before even coming into play.

Mylenium

I don't think they could outsorce code in India as you say, so easily because people that knows that said to me code was quite messy and not commented, so it was difficult to understand things easily and properly. I could be wrong tho.

And,in theory, ousourcing in India is not a bad idea tho :)

But IMO Nt took the right decision in rewriting Lw in steps, upgrade after upgrade, to stay on the market with their product and continue to sell anyway.

The upgrades before Lw 9.0 weren't simply feature upgrades, but alot was made under the hood to prepare further enhancements. edges and ngons weren't possible before. addition of new subpatch algorithm too. weight maps in layout neither. rendering engine has been separated in a dedicated area, and so on.

Nt is a small company. Lw cost is cheap, I think they couldn't have other solution than working on what they had left with.
I personally think Lw will become more flexible in time due to the work they're making.

I quite agree with Beam too. we have also Modo that has alot of Lw philosophy inside. using both apps is not a bad idea at all. Apps aren't a faith. They're tools.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Ok ...

ENOUGH.

-R