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SupRore
12-28-2005, 04:22 PM
Sci-fi character based on ancient Rome's soldiers.
Between 7264 tris right now.

http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/7486/wip1df.jpg

I'm not all too pleased with all the topology, or the neck, but overall I think i've done a decent enough job.
Next update ought to bring hands.

Close ups:
Head (http://tinypic.com/j9pspi.jpg)
Head wire (http://tinypic.com/j9ptt2.jpg)

This must be my fifth or sixth mostly complete character model, although first with this kind of polycount or a fully detailed head (although I've modeled a highpoly head or two seperate). It's also my first time with any sort of ears; critiques on those would be greatly appreciated.

(if the main image isn't working, link is http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/7486/wip1df.jpg (http://tinypic.com/j9pveb.jpg))

Psyk0
12-29-2005, 04:45 AM
I dont see the point of using that many polys when you could probably cut the amount in half and have the same result? :shrug:

SupRore
12-29-2005, 05:20 AM
I dont see the point of using that many polys when you could probably cut the amount in half and have the same result? :shrug:

Besides keeping it in quads, to the best of my knowledge and skill I'm using as few polys as I can to get the kind of definition and detail I'm hoping for.

I'd appreciate if you could mark some areas you feel would work well with less mesh density, so I could take a closer look and see what I can improve.

jfalconer
12-29-2005, 02:43 PM
From what I can see, it seems like you've put some good work into his face, and I'm digging the boots. You've got some nice details and its heading in the right direction.

I think what Psyk0 means is that, in general, you seem to be using higher poly base objects which results in some polys being wasted. For instance, take a look at his waist. There is no way you need (from last count) an 8x22 cylinder for just his lower abdomen. A 14x20 cylinder seems to be pushing it for the arms.

You may end up with the same polycount in the end, but I think overall you'd do much better starting out with less polygons and adding, than using a higher poly base object and trying to wrangle the vertices into position. I use box-modelling for difficult shapes. Its where you take a cube, with no extra points or anything, and just chisel away, adding edges until you achieve the desired form, and it helps focus your attention on the shape while avoiding wasted polygons.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c113/jfalconer/gollum-box.gif
(snagged from the Two Towers extended ed)

The same applies to the back of his head. There's a large number of polygons all going the same direction parallel to one another, so you could easily delete a number of the spans without any noticeable impact on the shape. Then you could spend some extra polys developing his neck (since by comparison his neck looks too simple, doesn't seem to connect with the head).

Finally, some c&cs: the shoulder/collar bone area needs some work. The collarbone will push down the pecks a bit, which is good, because they seem a little big right now. On top of that, the pecks seem to be sagging too low, especially at the sides, where they ought to be pulled up towards his armpits. That will give him a ribcage. Then you can begin sorting out the polyflow on his 6-pack, which could be joined much closer to his pecks (at the very middle of the chest). If you're not currently using reference, go find some, it'll point out the problem areas.

hope this helps and keep at it. :wise:

SupRore
12-29-2005, 04:55 PM
Thank you for your reply, it should be very helpful.

In regards to base objects, I've never been good at box modeling, personally. The arms legs, and torso all began with 10 sided cylinders, and the head was polymodeled starting with the ends of tubes for eyes and mouth.

The only row of polygons I could find that I felt wasn't doing something important was the one going up the nose. I removed it: http://tinypic.com/jb0lg9.jpg

On the torso's armor, I was a bit more successful. I found three rows that served absolutely no purpose (Not defining the arm area, extrusion on the back, or any major shape). I however didn't remove any on the lower torso. They're defining a detail in the center that I think to be worth the polys. http://tinypic.com/jb0m7d.jpg

Do you feel that's an uneccesary use of those rows, and it should best be left to textureing?

jfalconer
12-29-2005, 05:06 PM
Honestly, I think depending on the texture you put on there (let alone a normal map) you could get away with fewer polys in the areas I mentioned. :shrug:

SupRore
12-29-2005, 05:37 PM
Honestly, I think depending on the texture you put on there (let alone a normal map) you could get away with fewer polys in the areas I mentioned. :shrug:

I've looked over it again, and think you're right.


However, I've decided to leave the polygons. While it's wisest to remove them, I'm mainly modeling this as an excercise and won't be putting it in any engine, so as it is I think I'll keep going.

Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions, though. They've been a great help.

Johny
12-29-2005, 06:52 PM
well if you dont change it or improve those flaws u wont learn anything lol ;)

just my four cents .

AdamAtomic
12-29-2005, 07:41 PM
For the shapes you have in the finished piece, you have WAY TOO MANY POLYGONS. Other people have mentioned this but I'm not sure it's gotten through. You could make a better looking character with a better silhouette for about 2000 triangles. Game modeling, even in a cutting edge game like Gears of War or something, is about using every triangle in an efficient way. Every wasted triangle in your model is one less triangle you can use for special effects or more bad guys or more background detail. Would you rather have one character onscreen or four? The most offensive areas of the model are the waist and back of the head - you've used 10-20x the necessary geometry there.

Another thing to keep in mind is maintaining a uniform triangle density across the model. The way your model is laid out there will be large areas where the shading looks bad, as it averages the normals across a large, large polygon, and then some areas that look extremely smooth because of the high triangle density.

For some general inspiration and excellent guidance, I would check out Soul, Bobo The Seal, and B1ll's meshes. They do a great job at all levels of detail of only using triangles where they are necessary.

This is a bad mesh, but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed!

SupRore
12-29-2005, 08:58 PM
Thank you for your critiques.
How do you feel in regards to this improvement?
http://tinypic.com/jb79s5.jpg
http://tinypic.com/jb79zr.jpg

(The head is lower poly in both versions than in previous images. The current lowerpoly head is: http://tinypic.com/jb7dkk.jpg)

jfalconer
12-29-2005, 09:27 PM
thats a good start man, just keeping working at it. Don't forget some of the earlier crits in regards to his neck/shoulder area. Keep it up. :)

RampanT
12-30-2005, 01:52 PM
I think the polycount is definitely better. The problem for me with this is that even with the improved polycount, there are still too many parts of the model that are not making 'use' of the polys. There is nothing wrong with having an 8k poly character, as long as the polygons are being put to good use, defining shapes and details. This character has got that fairly generic look to it, where nothing is really defined. The trousers for instance still look like cylinders - maybe you could utilise the geometry you have there to suggest folds and to create a slightly more interesting and dynamic silouette.

The face also needs some work. Get some good reference of male faces and compare the proportions and features of your model. My initial feeling is that the eyes are too high, and also too far apart. The nose is too thin at the nostril area, and I'd maybe re-shape the mouth. The ear also looks unnatural - like its a disc thats been glued onto the side of the head. Also, I would remove a loop or two of polygons from around the eye.

I think that the method of using primitive shapes such as cylinders to initially block in arms and legs is fine, but I think you probably want to start with a lower, more managable polycount - otheriwse there are too many vertices to shape and correct. I'd maybe stick to 8 sided cylinders to begin with, and only have loops along the cylinder which define the shape. Once you have the general shape roughed out and correct, then you can add the detail, as shown in the gollum gif posted by jfalconer. Good luck with it though, it definitely looks like its getting better.

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