Help build my Lab: MOD EDIT He is trying to build a CG LAB

[leigh]

Poser

Why did you get Poser? That software is not going to teach your students anything.

[helicopterr]

Instead of getting poser, get modo, deep paint3d, bodypaint or something useful like t-shirts. But don't get poser, it is useless ( for your purpose ) and quite expensive.

[Bonedaddy]

It ain't the hardware, or the software. It's the curriculum.

[helicopterr]

It ain't the hardware, or the software. It's the curriculum.

true, but I think buying something like poser or bryce is stretching it.

[Simon]

Drop poser and get blender for free. I've never used it but I hear nothing but good.

Also surely it would be worth maybe testing it on your pupils first before splashing out on lots of copies of software.

All depends on your curriculum.

[superhooman]

Nevermind the software and hardware... okay, they are important, but even more important than those are good instructors! The problem with so many CG classes is that they are taught by inexperienced people with no clue about how the industry really is :argh:

[zuraq]

Ill say remember the basics, a coupple of wooden dolls with bendable joints, for basic posing needs, and boosting animation skills.
Allso a coupple of whitebords on the walls for key notes and instructions if needed, that would not be too expensive.

You say you have a projector and have purcased some different 3d apps, maya, max, or c4d would allways be a good idea, and just to mention it maya is the hardest to learn and c4d is the easyest app to learn and in real life most animation studios would recon maya and max as the industry standard, so maya is a good chosing but takes time as you sure know.

All large 3d apps have inbuilt animation tecnics and 2d drawing, so you could just use one app for all needs in theory, but i would recomend photoshop for 2d drawing with mouse pen applets, for animation there is manny different apps out there and im not an expert and i dont get much out off poser its not precise enough for me, but good for game making i think, you could allso get an app to form landscapes and there are lots of them out there, but again i could not say which of them is the best.

Your project sounds interesting and i wish you speed and luck.

[DanSilverman]

I wouldn't say that Poser is "useless". It may not be a very good 3D tool (i.e. for creating or using their 3D models, etc), but it is a decent enough reference for the human form whether nude or clothed. I have used Poser on several occasions as a reference for sketches and drawings. It is certainly much less expensive than hiring a human model ;) . Having said that, I am not certain that Poser is a good choice for a high school environment. I can see high school kids having a bit too much fun with turning on and off the genitles of the human models as well as displaying the fully skinned and nude versions of the women. Some parents might not like this for their children.

I am also wondering at your choice of Illustrator. I know it is the "leading" vextor software, but there are other alternatives that are much less expensive and many of them have features that are not (or were not) found in Illustrator. I would recommend Microsoft's Acrylic (which used to be Creature House's Expression 3). The Acrylic beta is stable and free at the moment and it is a wonderful vector program. If you don't want to mess with Acrylic then I would recommend Xara Xtreme (www.xara.com). It is (surprisingly) a great package and very full featured. Not only that, it is easy to use (despite how much it can do). I (personally) think that Xara could potentially go toe to toe with Illustrator. Xara is also going Open Source and there is a Linux version as well. So I would expect even better things from Xara along the way.

You have Maya, but it seems the future of Maya is a bit ... shall we say ... uncertain since Autodesk purchased them. As another has suggested here, you might want to try out Modo (www.luxology.com). It is a great Sub-D modeler that is just getting better and petter with real-time 3D paint and other great features due to be out in the next release (Q1 of 2006). To save money (and still get a great Sub-D modeler) you could go the route of Wings3D (free) or Blender (and also get rendering and animation). I realize these are not Maya, but the principles of 3D modeling are basically the same. It does not really take that much effort to learn a new application (i.e. going from Maya to 3D Studio MAX). The tools may have different names and different places, but a polygon is still a polygon :) .

As a side note, you may want to check out software like Bauhaus Mirage. I am just looking into this software and it seems very nice. It has some great paint tools, but is is also a full-fledged 2D animation studio as well with a real-time layering system and a lot of cool tools.

[Medicinehorse7]

Thank you all for your input,


I especially found Dan Silverman's reply useful as it had links and good support. I noted the comments about Poser and feel they are good, however poser is useful in as far as the speed and concept aspects. I teach a drawing unit and intend to have the students take the shading and proportions from poser for higher end models and detailing. I am aware that the learning curves for software like Maya is around 7 months for basic knowledge, however I am not so much going into 3d animation as I am illustration. I have students in 1/2 year blocks and have state competencies (mostly Career based ) which stamp out very specific industry standards.

I am currently using Vector based design (Corel Draw) and am purchasing plotter printers for large format printing + thermal transfer's for tee shirt designs. I intend to use CNC machines + embroidery machines for commercial manufacturing, which ties into other industrial uses like our wood working and plasma cutter for metals. We have a media unit which I can transition our 3d animation trainees into, or do some short commercials and demo reels for College bound students. I found Dans suggestion for Microsofts Magic very interesting and am considering it as an app for purchase.

I know Maya was purchased by Autodesk and am very confident that the current owners will integrate the software into an advanced architectural/ Modeling and animation package. Don't they also owm 3DS Max? I do know that the company will probably integrate the plotting aspects Like Revit/ AutoCad for Industries like Car manufacting and Design. I can see Maya being able to Model and print plots + Volumes for calculations in engineering I.E. (Dams, buildings etc..) yet retain the gaming industry needs as well. Anyway maybe thats a stretch but it sounds feasable.

If anyone else has suggestions for software and industry equipment I would appreciate links. I find opinions nice, but work experiance and 2D/3D industy stories (success and failures) would be the most useful. As an instructor I need to know the paths to success and failure to advise potential careers in the field. Once again my fine people please help me Put together and dream studio with a feasable workflow, thank you. PS Im on a purchasing timeline.

[Bazooka Tooth]

teaching highschool kids Zbrush and Maya... How about a drivers ed course.

[Andyman]

Man, why didn't you come do this stuff at my highschool? My art and computer classes consisted of zero except for 4th grade.

[csmallfield]

What you are doing here is really great, my high school had a small multimedia class which consisted of 2 computers with Macromedia Director. The teacher and I made many presentations to the school board and got copies of lightwave and new computers, but that was during the Clinton era and the schools had money to burn. The fact that you were able to get $75k is friggin amazing.

Back to your original question. You make a good point about poser being good for quick and easy learning, as long as you keep in mind that Poser artwork and animation is generally not well-regarded in the computer art world.

This is all of course my opinion.

Required:
Adobe Photoshop - no knock-offs, just the real deal. If you are doing illustration and/or 3D this is a must. It's easy to get going but the features are deep. I started using it when I was a kid to make lens flares and red eyes on photos, then started to use the real power of it. I've used it since version 3 and I'm still amazed and learn new things about it. It's probably the most useful 2D program in the professional world.

Alias (er, Autodesk) Maya - it's a good choice. I'm partial to it because I know it, but I think you've got a good grasp of the dificulty of learning it, which really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. I'm slightly worried about the thought that it could be used well for industrial design and CNC machines. I'm not positive on this, but Maya generally doesn't have the tools for making exact technical models like you might imagine, it's a lot more like sculpting. I'm no expert as I work in the VFX field not the industrial design. I would check with alias and/or ask questions in the Maya section of CG Talk.

Adobe After-Effects - Some on this forum may argue this one, it is not a super-highend compositing program, but for ease of use, compatability with other Adobe products, and the quality that it is capable of it's your best bet for compositing and 2D animation. It also can work as an editing package if you didn't want to spend the money for that.

I'm not sure what your experience level with making animated projects is but a simple student pipeline might go something like this, design a character or 2, bring them into photoshop, make some color pictures work out the details, bring in some side and front drawings of them into Maya (or other 3D package) model them, texture them using photoshop, animate them, render them, paint up some backgrounds in photoshop, take your characters and background paintings, bring them into after effects, do some touch-ups, correct some colors, edit the piece together and render out the final project. After-effects also does a decent job of converting to various video formats and compressing quicktime movies.

Those 3 programs are the programs one would need to make some pretty cool projects, that's it. Anything else you get can help the process.

Additional and Useful Programs

2D - Programs and Tools useful for illustration

Adobe Illustrator or Macromedia Freehand (it can help to keep all programs Adobe for compatability reasons)

Wacom Tablets, you mentioned getting a Cintiq, they are nice, but it's really not neccessary, if you want to get a good solid piece of equipment that is all you'll need, get a bunch of Wacom Intuos2 6x8 tablets. Bigger is not necessarily better, I find it harder to use bigger tablets. If you want cutting edge get Intuos3.

Macromedia Dreamweaver and Macromedia Flash - Many students may wish to make websites. Dreamweaver and photoshop can make all manner of great sites, if they wish to do 2D animation Flash is the way to go, also great for website design. Website design is a very marketable skill as well.

Apple Final Cut Pro (if you have any macs) or Adobe Premiere - are great programs for doing video editing and production, adding transitions, making things widescreen, color correcting and finally outputting to DVD or Video.

Adobe Encore - Great for taking After Effects, Photoshop and/or Premiere projects and making really slick DVD's that will play in set top boxes.

3D apps and utilities -

Bodypaint 3D - an optional texture painting program compatible with Maya, Max and many more. Photoshop will more than suffice.

Modo - a modelling only program. Maya will more than suffice. Like Bodypaint, it should be at the bottom of your list.

Z-brush - you can do some amazing things, but this program if you mean it to be combined with maya to create displacement and normal maps, may be a bit too involved for the level that these kid's wil have time to get to.

Other -

Getting good equipment and programs is all fine and good, but as I'm sure you know the teaching of it and the effort put forth by the kid's will outweigh anything you buy. Many schools deal with far less and manage to make some great things. One thing that will be extremely helpful for students wishing to push their knowledge is a good library of tutorials, videos and books. As much as you can teach, with computer art, often one needs to teach oneself. Even after going to college for it I would say that I am still mostly self-taught.

Another useful thing is to get them involved with online communities, get them in the habit of submitting works in progress through sites like CG talk. Get them doing daily sketch forums, give them extra credit for doing them after school. There are massive online resources as you are aware of.

One final note, if you have some money left over, have some one build you a bunch of computers with fast processors and a lot of RAM, the rest of the components are unimportant, for use as render machines. The kid's will be tying up their own workstations very quickly, and will be unable to continue working until projects finish rendering time. If you had a small render farm (5 - 15 computers) you would be the most advanced high school out there. This is of course secondary to other things but you'll see how necessary it is as you go along.

I think I've covered it all, if you have any questions or if you want me to clarify anything I've said, feel free to ask. Like I said I love your project, and if I can help you out, I'd be happy to.

Cheers,
Chris

[Bazooka Tooth]

its not great, its terrible!

This guy is into it and wants to work with it, but that doesn’t mean it should be taught in high school! What does this do to our wages? I hate this idea and I am writing the administration of Red Mesa High School in Arazona to let them know exactly what I think of them allowing for such a specialty class in their school.

This makes me SICK!!

[csmallfield]

its not great, its terrible!

This guy is into it and wants to work with it, but that doesn’t mean it should be taught in high school! What does this do to our wages? I hate this idea and I am writing the administration of Red Mesa High School in Arazona to let them know exactly what I think of them allowing for such a specialty class in their school.

This makes me SICK!!

Are you being sarcastic? Keeping people ignorant of what you do for job security is weak. Maybe we shouldn't teach english and math either, both of those skills might compete with my ability to do my job. If you actually write to this school administration, I don't even know what to think of you. It really is none of your buisness to interfere at that level.

Where do you work? I'd like to write them a letter about how your main interest is to keep others down to protect your job instead of bettering yourself. See? That would be totally innappropriate for me to do that.

I'll just get the top people at a bunch of important production studios to write opposite letters as well as encourage other CG Talkers who are more interested in helping each other not oppressing each other.

[Bazooka Tooth]

Are you being sarcastic? Keeping people ignorant of what you do for job security is weak. Maybe we shouldn't teach english and math either, both of those skills might compete with my ability to do my job. If you actually write to this school administration, I don't even know what to think of you. It really is none of your buisness to interfere at that level.

Where do you work? I'd like to write them a letter about how your main interest is to keep others down to protect your job instead of bettering yourself. See? That would be totally innappropriate for me to do that.


No, not sarcastic. I am not trying to keep them ignorant, and it isn’t for job security. When I mentioned our wages, it was a comment about supply and demand, I think you can do the math there. High School classes shouldn’t be about specialty courses, it is supposed to be about preparing you for the world. Its what these kids wont be learning that now becomes a problem. I am writing them a letter about funding a program like this when so many other things are being neglected. A program like this is not ethical.

Do you really want to know where I work so you can write them a letter? Everyone here already knows that. My boss thinks I waste too much time messing around on this website and really isn’t happy about it either. How does your boss like it, or don’t they know about it? Should I write them a letter about you personally?

The letter I am writing is not a letter about this guy personally, it is about their decision to spend their funds in this manner. Charging high school kids $100 for a English book, then turn around and hand this guy $75,000 to blow on 3D software to make graphics for videogames and movies...

[RobW720]

I wouldn't call it blowing money. Sure, there are other places in many schools that are VERY underfunded (music, fine arts, theater, oh.... all of it) but if he takes this seriously and the students do it would be a great learning tool.

I do think that money should be better invested in schools, but this isnt like a pre existing program they are throwing a ton of money at. He is trying to start something new and that costs money.

A lot of students in high school might not have direction yet and this could give it to them. If I would have had an oprotunity to begin 3d that early or even learn about it in high school from a teacher I would have jumped all over it.

I see your point, Bazooka Tooth. High schoolers should get the best overall education that prepairs them for the real world. The largest chunk of money should go to good teachers and supplies for general classes. I am kinda torn on the issue. I would feel better if I knew that the other parts of the school were well funded and secure, but I think that this is a good oprotunity.

Heh, and its not like you can sluff it off and take the easy A (like the art classes at my high school) this stuff is hard and if people think its an easy A they will be wrong and have to work harder :-D

[Bazooka Tooth]

If I was reading (http://www.firstamendmentschools.org/news/article.aspx?id=15932)about the correct place, after checking into Red Mesa High School and the Navajo Reservation it is on, I dont want to even get involved in the issue.

:argh:

[Medicinehorse7]

Thank you for your time and support Chris, you have added just the type of input I need for my purposes. As an instructor I have to try and give as many options and variences to my Vocation (Commercial Art) as I can. Seeing 5 years ahead in software cababilities and applications thereto, is a guessing game in anyones book. Albeit, I have to make informed hypothesis as to those directions on a semester by semester basis. As far as CNC machines go, I meant that for vector applications. However,there are current programs available that will do a six axis rotory carving for commercial industries (toys, small models) but nothing large like 10 feet yet unless your into (Foam) set design. I can however see Autodesk going this direction with additional Maya scripting for the car manufacturers, thereby saving huge amounts of time in the current clay scullpting processes. Additonally, there are laser scanners that are translating real time mesh for high end modeling so the workflow is very flexible

What's this mean to the artist? Nothing more than precision and saved time I should think. These directions would allow 3D and 2D artisians more doors to step through for potential work. And after all fine art is a different field (I have a fine arts degree) as well and an increasingly difficult one to make a name in. I do have a friend (Dave Nordahl) that did art for Euro Disney and was a primary artist for Michael Jackson, Spielberg and others and we were working on a painting for 5 million ( my cut was to be a million) until Mr. Jackson did his first molestation stint and withdrew the funding. That was a bust and as close as I came to big money in the fine art field, I did however learn my friends work process which I could speed up ten fold whith these computer applications, so there may be hope for a comeback.

Bazooka.. In as far as my teaching curriculum and purchasing liberties, they are state supported and highly supported by the Government and many industries throughout the world, so unless you have a PHD and national lobbyists supporting you, fire your best shot. Besides; the fact that the best "help" you have offered is a weak self centered opinion, your threats are without foundation and your thinking is hardly worth the time for this paragraph.

At any rate my fine people please keep the positive reply's coming and help me develop artists for this industy, which we all appreciate ... hence this website. Thank you again.

[Ed Caracappa]

Kevin,

If you need workstations, give me a call. I'd be happy to try and help you out.

Ed

[Medicinehorse7]

Certainly your systems are the type I will consider for future purposes as they are better suited. I recomend that you get on the Arizona Mohave educational purchasing list. There are more vocational districts out there that have far more money per student population than I. Additionaly, I would also recomend that you check into the national shows like those attended by representatives such as Skills USA which is a national Vo Tech forum for classes such as mine.

[Medicinehorse7]

Bazooka,

Well your research is correct, that is a current write up on our small school, and timely as a preface to our community interests. May I offer a peace token as I noticed you have a point in educational resources and centers of core curriculum. I must say however that it would be well worth your effort to do more research on Vo-Tech Education in general, as the funding source is not tossed into the main educational resource agencies. It is a specialized option for those schools whose students may not have the educational directions as the mainstream.

Given that many of my students are SPED, its a total surprise to most of the teachers that my students are some of the best artisians in school. It does not surprise me however, as most are cognitive manipulative learners and my programs are repetative by nature.

The challenge lies in community application of learned ability, which puts me in the lead, in the fact that there are industries around that need experiance as opposed to college degrees. Of course college bound students are the main focus, but my little effort has recently been given new equipment allowing for online learning/teaching, thereby giving our isolation a new potential for nontraditional education, as well as current applictions for courses normally offered in colleges throughout the nation.
So your concern is well taken, but may not apply to my little piece of the world. Thank you for your concern, if that in fact was what it was.

[MattClary]

Given that many of my students are SPED, its a total surprise to most of the teachers that my students are some of the best artisians in school.

This always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. When I was in high school (80-84), the only people who had access to computers were special ed. I'm glad to see the tradition is being carried forward to f*ck the "average" student.

[Bazooka Tooth]

Kevin, I must apologize, I visualized the kids in my community being provided with a program like this.

Chris had some good info for you. I do not use Maya so I say this from a non biased point of view, Maya is probably your best choice as it is slightly cheaper. If you went with Lightwave or something like that you could still teach them the fundamentels of 3D and they would still have good software to use and your dollar would go further in the long run. You have $3000 per seat, correct? You will probably be able to get better pricing than what I found, but if you went with something like Photoshop CS2 ($274), Maya Unlimited ($375), 19” LCD’s ($250), and machines that will still be good in 4 years ($1800). That would leave you with $7538 for networking and other materials. I haven’t worked a network of more than 8 computers but I would set at least $1500 aside for a network. Maybe the Gnomon digital series DVD’s + DVD palyer and TV $4500 (a video projector would be better). Then assuming that you can squeeze some of the pricing, I would get 10 seats of Zbrush for the students that really take to it and want more advancment ($2795).

Leaving you at a grand total of $76,245. If you can cut back more on the computer pricing, then I would add 10 tablets to those Zbrush seats.

I don’t know too much about it, but I think another way about it would be to get ‘dummy’ machines and run them all off a server, you may be able to save a lot and get the printers, tablets, software and everything you want.

Edit: get a refund for Poser.

[durbdk]

And, please Medicinehorse7, remember SECURITY! The Technical College I just graduated (Århus Teknisk Skole, Denmark) from had a break in and they lost 14 computers/monitors. Be sure that whatever you do you have sufficient security/insurance (yes, I'm american, and I know how important insurance ins there :D ).

Good luck and godspeed to your project, and since it costs nothing, be sure to have open source installed on your computers too, that's software all the students can install at home (if they have the means.)

**EDIT**

Just looked at your portfolio site, some really nice work; especially your spaceman.

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