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Beamtracer
12-20-2005, 12:07 AM
http://www.earthtimes.org/newsimage/mac_version_19125.jpg

Microsoft announced it will no longer offer its Internet Explorer web browser for Mac. In a few weeks it will be removed from Microsoft's download site.

Story:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/4725.html

It is recommended that users switch to alternative browsers such as:

Firefox-Open source browser available for Mac / Windows / Linux. Free download available here (http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/).

Safari-Open source browser, Mac OS X only (link (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/safari/)).


Opera-Proprietary browser available for Mac OS X, Windows, Linux and other UNIX systems (link (http://www.opera.com/)).

leigh
12-20-2005, 12:10 AM
Does anyone even still use Internet Explorer??

nimajneb
12-20-2005, 12:24 AM
Ammusingly enough, if you leave it on your box, Adobe programs willl attempt to open it on occasion. Firefox has been my browser of choice for some time now, but I still get the occasional hiccup in OSX, even though it's declared the default. Likely an Apple thing, not an M$ thing, but still. It was always slow and cludgey on the Mac, and I never really understood why they developed it in the first place. The big problem I have on Mac is that many content sites do WMV and RM, but not Quicktime. It's improved, and there's plenty of Quicktime content, but some stuff just doesn't make it there, and Quicktime's WMV support is non-existent (no big surprise), not to mention the issues with Divx. Can't we all just get along? :)

Beamtracer
12-20-2005, 12:37 AM
Does anyone even still use Internet Explorer??
Yes, some people are still using Internet Explorer, but the numbers are dropping.

In 2002, Internet Explorer peaked with 96% of the market.
In 2005, surveys showed Internet Explorer had dropped to around 85%.

Meanwhile, Firefox is on the rise, and has been adopted by around 10% of all web users. However, some technology websites (with techno savvy audience) report that 80% of their audience are using Firefox.

According to Wikipedia, up to about 1.2% are using the Opera Browser (I'm sure the numbers are higher among the CG Society audience).

I think many people have switched away from Explorer because of recent exploits and security vulnerabilities. For example, a recent vulnerability allowed any website to gain control of a computer running Internet Explorer, by exploiting an Active-X hole.

I believe that Firefox and Opera don't have Active-X by default, so were not subject to the exploit.

201
12-20-2005, 01:25 AM
Does anyone even still use Internet Explorer??
Me!:applause:

ShadowHunter
12-20-2005, 01:26 AM
Yes, some people are still using Internet Explorer, but the numbers are dropping.

In 2002, Internet Explorer peaked with 96% of the market.
In 2005, surveys showed Internet Explorer had dropped to around 85%.
These numbers are for Mac and PC users. I'm sure the number of OSX users that are running IE has been very low (probably much less than 10%) for quite some time now. The 85% market share is due to Windows users.
P.S: Opera kicks butt. :buttrock:It has the least amount of exploits out of the trio.

Beamtracer
12-20-2005, 02:03 AM
In it's peak, the Internet Explorer used to be available for Mac, Solaris OS and HP-UX (Hewlett Packard UNIX). Microsoft has axed Internet Explorer for all these other platforms.

Developers of websites need to consider that Internet Explorer is no longer a cross platform solution. If they develop for I.E, then 15%+ of their audience won't be able to see the content properly.

At least the other browsers (Firefox, Opera, Safari) adhere to the strict standards set by the W3C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web_Consortium). If website developers stick to these same standards, then users of all browsers will see the content properly.

Hazdaz
12-20-2005, 04:14 AM
But some p0rn sites just don't work right with FF... what are our poor Mac brethren gonna do now?!? This is terrible news for them.

Beamtracer
12-20-2005, 05:09 AM
But some p0rn sites just don't work right with FF... what are our poor Mac brethren gonna do now?!? This is terrible news for them.
The Safari browser has a "Private Browsing" mode, which is like a stealth mode, where it won't record the website address to the browser history, and won't store any of it in a cache on the hard drive.

Not that I would go looking at that kind of website anyway. Hazdaz, I'm shocked that you'd even mention it!

Para
12-20-2005, 09:04 AM
I use IE every now and then, but my main browser at the moment is Opera.

Wasn't the reason for dropping Mac support the fact that it doesn't have that many users and it's already outdated even compared to the PC version?

umfridus
12-20-2005, 10:34 AM
Both the current Mac and PC versions of IE are very outdated - there hasn't been updates for five and four years respectively. But MS ceased development for the Mac version as early as two years ago while security fixes continue coming for the PC version, and IE 7 beta is around the corner. IE 7 is only for Windows XP/Vista, however, so lots of computer users will be left out.

Beamtracer
12-20-2005, 12:03 PM
my main browser at the moment is Opera.

A lot of people say Opera is nice. Maybe I should start using it a bit more and see how it goes. At least it is secure, and doesn't have all the malware that Internet Explorer attracts.

This is a quote from Wikipedia regarding ActiveX in Internet Explorer:

Internet Security

The embedding of COM into the Internet Explorer web browser (under the name of ActiveX) created a combination of problems that has led to an explosion of computer virus, trojan and spyware infections. These malware attacks mostly depend on ActiveX for their activation and propagation to other computers. Microsoft recognized the problem with ActiveX as far back as 1996 when Charles Fitzgerald, program manager of Microsoft's Java team said "If you want security on the 'Net', unplug your computer. ... We never made the claim up front that ActiveX is intrinsically secure." [1] ActiveX as it is currently implemented is intrinsically insecure and is the biggest weakness of Internet Explorer not addressed by Windows XP Service Pack 2.
As COM and ActiveX components are run as native code on the user's machine, there are no restrictions on what the code can do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activex)

Opera and Firefox are inherently much safer browsers, and offer more protection against adware, malware and exploits.

JeroenDStout
12-20-2005, 03:05 PM
I have a friend who swears with IE and makes up all kind of stuff to make Firefox look bad - says things like the new version of IE will be the end of Firefox.

Then I usually say "let's quit this argument before things get very unrealistic again."

itsallgoode9
12-20-2005, 03:38 PM
Meanwhile, Firefox is on the rise, and has been adopted by around 10% of all web users. However, some technology websites (with techno savvy audience) report that 80% of their audience are using Firefox.

yeah, i know that it is usually 95% of people that check my portfolio (which the only way I usually get traffic is from CGTalk) are using firefox.

animateddave
12-20-2005, 04:26 PM
I'll stick with opera which is free now anyways. I have firefox too but rarely use it since I sometimes have issues with open some site. As for explorer I never use that unless a site doesn't work on those other two browsers.

Tlock
12-20-2005, 06:08 PM
Microsoft was a little late to the market with IE and so Netscape got hold. Now that most of the competition has been beaten to death due to the Browser Integration with OS. Microsoft no longer cares, we saw updates almost every few months from Microsoft to try to catch up with others, IE 6 has been around for how long now?

No M$ monopoly never hurts innovation......ya right.....

I am a FireFox fan and will use till something better comes along, like a good consumer.

Oh ya Hazdaz you are funny.

Para
12-20-2005, 06:48 PM
Oh yeah, people who are considering which one to get, Firefox or Opera should remember that Opera's installation package is smaller than Firefox' (3,7 megs against 5,0 megs) and Opera has a lot more features than Firefox has by default - yes, you can get most of them as extenssssPLUGINS to Firefox but why bother if they're already in Opera. Opera is also faster and takes up less RAM and it's also free nowadays without any kind of ads so in my opinion there really isn't any competition here.

PS. BeamTracer, you still have a very propagandic tone in your posts. I know it's not intentional but it's still kinda funny :)

Hazdaz
12-20-2005, 06:57 PM
No one have ever been able to answer this for me:

How does Opera (or any other alternative) handle all the "odd-ball" files/extensions out there???... And by that I mean all the different type of movies (be they embedded into the browser or they open up the media player)... or stuff like internet radio or flash or all those other really annoying reasons that I HAVE to use IE, instead of my usual FF.
If Opera handles those better than FF, then I would consider switching, but if not, then I don't see the point to leave FF.
(note: FF works most of the time, but not all the time with these type of files/extensions which is annoying)

opus13
12-20-2005, 07:13 PM
How does Opera (or any other alternative) handle all the "odd-ball" files/extensions out there???
unfortunately... it doesnt do any better than firefox, and in many cases its arguably worse. opera is a pretty nice browser, but it definately has some compaibility and stability issues. even basic things like quicktime files can cause opera to throw a fit :surprised


I have a friend who swears with IE and makes up all kind of stuff to make Firefox look bad - says things like the new version of IE will be the end of Firefox.


actually he is on to something... all the beta versions have been getting very high marks from testers in the security and usability departments. its been on the MSDN for some time now, and it actually is an impressive piece of software.

i'm certainly no IE lover, but i gotta admit that it is a slick package.

ShadowHunter
12-20-2005, 07:39 PM
actually he is on to something... all the beta versions have been getting very high marks from testers in the security and usability departments. its been on the MSDN for some time now, and it actually is an impressive piece of software.

i'm certainly no IE lover, but i gotta admit that it is a slick package.I've been playing with IE7, and I like it so far. It's standards compliant (yes PNG transparency works, and the CSS border bug is fixed). I haven't had time to test how well IE7 supports CSS 2.0, but from what I hear IE7 is supposed to be the most standards compliant browser with the (arguably vague) W3C specification. Though I have my doubts about that claim... There are some other neat things in it, particularly for high DPI displays. Contrary to what has been said before IE7 will be released for both XP and Vista. AFAIK it will come in a service pack that will also include the new WMP.
For now I'd recommend sticking with Opera/FF :thumbsup:

MikeRhone
12-20-2005, 08:30 PM
I only use Iexplorer in the rare instances I need ot FTP quickly and I dont have an FTP client on the box. I also will use it on the rare occasion when Firefox doesnt load the page correctly. (A conspiracy-theorist part of me thinks that Microsoft encourages Firefox incompatibilities, and may do something nasty in the next version of Windows.)

BillSpradlin
12-20-2005, 09:12 PM
It's not a consipracy theory, it's the fact that Firefox doesn't handle some web pages properly. Which is one of the main reasons I don't use it. It crashes my Windows Explorer, doesn't display and handle some web pages properly, and overall just seems rather flakey. I've used it extensively on multiple machines and have similar problems on each. I'll stick with IE thanks which I haven't ever had a problem with after IE 6.

As much as I would like to use an alternitive, when I'm browsing, shopping, and doing other web based functions, I don't want to have to deal with my explorer blowing up, having to open a different browser just to view the page I'm trying to look up, or deal with abrupt crashes. I can't even recall the last time I had IE blow up on me it's been that long.

If I were to ever use one it would probably be Opera, but until it handles embedded content properly I'll be sticking with the trusty IE.

I haven't had a virus let alone a web page attempt to isntall something I don't want (security setup for the win) in well over 6 years now. I'm fully aware of the issues IE has with security, however as soon as another browser takes the majority marketshare, it will be the highest attacked and most vulnverable browser instead of IE. Firefox has already had more attacks since it's higher market gain than it has had since it came out. Just goes to show you that the alternatives aren't always exempt from problems that plauge the most popular option.

bsm3d
12-20-2005, 09:16 PM
I use Firefox now since 2 years and sometimes there is crash but IE as also crash !

So as I'm webdesigner I prefer using Firefox to be right with Standard and Css...now I use only IE to check out my web design or rarely view activeX website contents...

It's easy to dev and view with firefox an dcheck in IE than reverse.

nothing is perfect but Firefox 1.5 is really better and extenssions beat'm IE...

I just see IE 7 beta preview it's looking like Firefox :-) who copy ?

bsm3d
12-20-2005, 09:18 PM
I only use Iexplorer in the rare instances I need ot FTP quickly and I dont have an FTP client on the box. I also will use it on the rare occasion when Firefox doesnt load the page correctly. (A conspiracy-theorist part of me thinks that Microsoft encourages Firefox incompatibilities, and may do something nasty in the next version of Windows.)

Just try to update your windows with firefox :applause:

DevilHacker
12-20-2005, 10:54 PM
Does anyone even still use Internet Explorer??I do…
:thumbsup:

But mostly for this single website, since CGSociety does not run correctly in Opera…
I personally don’t find IE that bad. There is nothing missing. If you’re after tabbed browsing, just have a glance over at the MSN toolbar…
[LINK (http://toolbar.msn.com/)]

IE is better than Firefox (which is really just a run-downed version of Opera) IMO…

DevilHacker
12-20-2005, 11:08 PM
I just see IE 7 beta preview it's looking like Firefox :-) who copy ?Firefox if I remember correctly…
Copied it from Opera.


…But anyways; who cares who came up with the idea first…
…It comes down to who can implement the feature the best…
:shrug:

Hazdaz
12-20-2005, 11:21 PM
It's not a consipracy theory, it's the fact that Firefox doesn't handle some web pages properly.

I thought it was the opposite. From whataver I have ever read, IE does (or atleast did in the past) such a bad job as following standards that web developers followed with whatever rules MS had for IE (simply because of it's massive dominance in the market). Brecause of that, browsers that strictly follow the true standards wouldn't load pages as intended (even if they were reading the code correctly).
I am definitly not a web guy, but that seems to be the general story that I have interpreted.



Oh yea, I read about this FF tip a few days ago... figured I would share, seems to work nicely for me:

In about:config, set network.prefetch-next to false and it seems to work lots faster (less lag). Maybe it's just a placebo effect, but it seems to run smoother this way on my PC.

tuna
12-20-2005, 11:23 PM
[font=Times New Roman][size=3][color=white]I do…But mostly for this single website, since CGSociety does not run correctly in Opera…


What doesn't work? I used Opera for a few months and didnt notice anything major break, apart from the usually ridiculous reply page, which seems to be broken no matter what you use.

Beamtracer
12-20-2005, 11:28 PM
So as I'm webdesigner I prefer using Firefox to be right with Standard and Css...now I use only IE to check out my web design or rarely view activeX website contents...

It's easy to dev and view with firefox an dcheck in IE than reverse.
I'd be interested to know if this is typical for web designers.

With Firefox on the rise, and Internet Explorer in decline, has this affected the way web designers are creating sites? Are they sticking to W3C standards any more now, or is proprietary Microsoft code/scripts still common?

Are most web designers checking that things display correctly in Firefox?

umfridus
12-20-2005, 11:41 PM
It's not a consipracy theory, it's the fact that Firefox doesn't handle some web pages properly. Which is one of the main reasons I don't use it. It crashes my Windows Explorer, doesn't display and handle some web pages properly, and overall just seems rather flakey. I've used it extensively on multiple machines and have similar problems on each. I'll stick with IE thanks which I haven't ever had a problem with after IE 6.
How on earth can Firefox crash Windows Explorer? That seems to be the trademark accomplishment of IE owing to its tight integration with Windows OS. If Firefox indeed brings your system down, perhaps it's time to upgrade or check the computer for malware.

umfridus
12-20-2005, 11:51 PM
Are most web designers checking that things display correctly in Firefox?
Good web designers would test their websites using all the major browsers (IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc.) and on multiple platforms if possible. The goal would not be to pass W3C validation but to make sure the sites work as intended for as wide an audience as possible. Sadly, there are also lots of not-so-good designers out there.

BillSpradlin
12-20-2005, 11:57 PM
Obviously it can and does crash windows explorer as I'm not the only person who's experienced that issue. There was another thread in regards to that problem on these very boards in which at least one other person had the same issue. Mind you, if you had read my post entirely, which apparently you did not, I did make mention that this problem had occurred across multiple systems.

As much as I would like to follow your excellent suggestion of "upgrading my PC" to fix a known software issue, I think I'll save my money for something more useful. Thanks for that delightful input, if only every one of us could follow such advice we all might live in a happier computing world.

ShadowHunter
12-21-2005, 12:00 AM
I'd be interested to know if this is typical for web designers.

With Firefox on the rise, and Internet Explorer in decline, has this affected the way web designers are creating sites? Are they sticking to W3C standards any more now, or is proprietary Microsoft code/scripts still common?

Are most web designers checking that things display correctly in Firefox?
I'd say that depends on the site that you're building. If it's for the WWW, then yes most developers recognize that they can no longer ignore browsers other than IE, since its market share has slipped. I know a number of companies still tell their employees to use IE because their intranet pages use Microsoft's DOM for Javascript from the older days. Fortuantely W3Cs Level 1 DOM is now fairly well implemented in all browsers so that recently there are no more advantages in writing IE specific pages. AFAIK the CSS2 support though is flaky in most current browsers, and nonexistant in IE6. Though as I mentioned this seems to have been addressed in IE7. Once IE7 comes out and becomes widespread, there will no longer be a reason not to write W3C compliant pages (that ideally display identically on all browsers)...

That is, until the next big proprietary innovation comes along :scream:
Edit: XAML anyone ;)

Saurus
12-21-2005, 12:36 AM
How on earth can Firefox crash Windows Explorer? That seems to be the trademark accomplishment of IE owing to its tight integration with Windows OS. If Firefox indeed brings your system down, perhaps it's time to upgrade or check the computer for malware.

Actually, my firefox will sometimes slows down my computer and at times freezes my whole system. And I keep my system pretty updated. I use firefox for its tabs function, but because of these problems, I actually been using IE more often. I also don't want to install a 3rd browser. I’m waiting to see the next version of IE and see if I can go back to one browser system

umfridus
12-21-2005, 02:12 PM
Obviously it can and does crash windows explorer as I'm not the only person who's experienced that issue. There was another thread in regards to that problem on these very boards in which at least one other person had the same issue. Mind you, if you had read my post entirely, which apparently you did not, I did make mention that this problem had occurred across multiple systems.
I had read your entire post carefully. That you said this problem had occurred across multiple systems only made me more doubtful because I have never seen Firefox crashing Windows Explorer on the several computers I've used them on. Firefox indeed crashes quite a lot (more so than IE on some machines) and can affect system performance by taking up large amount of memory, but closing down explorer.exe isn't something it can accomplish on its own, unlike IE.

KayosIII
12-21-2005, 11:13 PM
I am away from home and using IE for the first time in ages. I gotta say it kinda feels like having one hand tied behind my back. I keep going to use mouse jestures for everything. no tabs no text resizing buttons ( I found the menu entries) no unix copy paste.

Normally I am probably this forums only Konqueror user.

Beamtracer
12-22-2005, 12:44 AM
The fact that someone else can gain control of your computer via ActiveX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activex) in Internet Explorer is a much greater concern than what features (or lack of) the browser may have.

If you disabled ActiveX and scripting in IE it would be a lot safer. But it's default setting leaves these on. This, in effect, is like handing the keys of your computer to someone else. It's like telling someone else that you can do what you like with my computer.

Now I'm just guessing here, but because this exploit can occur when you surf around websites it would suggest to me that the exploiter could penetrate even the most secure firewalls.

If someone with mal-intent gains control of a machine in a corporate environment, I assume that would compromise the security of the entire corporate network.

Also, malware may not always be obvious or dramatic. It may be spyware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyware) that the user is not aware of. It may be a rootkit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit) exploit that operates in stealth mode (hides itself from anti-virus software). How would you know if you did or didn't have one of these inside your computer?

JackW
12-22-2005, 12:56 AM
Firefox + Extensions (Tab Browse, Adblock, Flashgot) > Every other browser :O

Para
12-22-2005, 07:20 AM
Now I'm just guessing here, but because this exploit can occur when you surf around websites it would suggest to me that the exploiter could penetrate even the most secure firewalls.

Yes and no, I haven't seen a single ActiveX control which doesn't need user confirmation for installing etc. and outside Windows Update the only sites I know which use ActiveX for clearly something malicious are sites which are filled with illegal content.

Most company networks block ActiveX outside their own domain.

HowardB
12-22-2005, 08:16 AM
For everyone’s info most of the hits to my website come from cgtalk...

For the browsers

Firefox 46 %
MS Internet Explorer 40.5 %
Opera 7.9 %
Safari 3.8 %

For Operating Systems

Windows 92.4 %
Macintosh 6.3 %
Unknown 0.6 %
Linux 0.5 %

Beamtracer
12-22-2005, 08:58 AM
Firefox 46 %
MS Internet Explorer 40.5 %
Opera 7.9 %
Safari 3.8 %

For Operating Systems

Windows 92.4 %
Macintosh 6.3 %
Unknown 0.6 %
Linux 0.5 %
Fascinating stats, Howard. Thanks for that.
I would have expected that Firefox would be the main browser, being a techno savvy audience like CGTalkers are.
Surprise that Opera is getting almost 8x the use here than average. Must be a lot of Opera lovers here ;)
I thought the % of Mac users would have been higher than 6%.

edbabb
12-23-2005, 12:02 AM
i know this has been said many a time before, but

long live open source!

(not open sauce; after a couple of days it smells pretty damn bad..)





though, being honest, i am writing this post while using Opera, not firefox. :shrug:

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12-23-2005, 12:02 AM
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