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animalunae
12-18-2005, 05:21 PM
I'm in the process of creating a still, one that should lead to a whole lot more. After having modeled the sword of the Wizard Diian, I'm now in the process of modeling his horse.

Constructive comments and crits are more then welcome.

Wim


*Edit* Latest Update
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http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_009.jpg

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dagann
12-18-2005, 06:02 PM
Very nice work, but the horse seems to be too muscular.

Can we have a unsmoothed wire?

ZONKS
12-18-2005, 09:29 PM
Yea, it seems like he could use more roundness to his back legs, too. The musculature will be toned down a little by the hair you end up giving him, I guess.

animalunae
12-18-2005, 10:20 PM
dagann: yeah the muscles are still to much expressed, because in this stage I just want to make sure I have correct topology. My reference consisted more of anatomical drawings rather then pictures, that will be my second phase.

CAAB: The back legs are still very very basic, I hardly did anything more then put up the base mesh, I'll get to that tomorrow during my lunch break :)

Some wires, wanted to up them before I went to Kong but I ran out of time, so here they are.

dagann
12-18-2005, 10:54 PM
is there an iteration on your wire pics?


I m very inquisitive since i'm also working on a horse(but i made a break)

animalunae
12-18-2005, 11:39 PM
What do you mean?

EricCartman
12-19-2005, 10:13 AM
He's asking if the wires that you posted are smoothed.

animalunae
12-19-2005, 11:00 AM
Oh :) Sorry... No it's presmoothed.

animalunae
12-26-2005, 10:53 AM
Update, I detailed the legs, I'm not quite fond of the rear toes, but I might redo them later...

animalunae
12-26-2005, 10:55 AM
Few renders...

dagann
12-27-2005, 08:39 PM
Nice work a usual.
Can't wait to see the head. :)

How many hours did you spent on this model?

(In my opinion, in you wire pics, it would be better if you don't use the presmooth, since it make the wire a bit messy.)

animalunae
12-27-2005, 11:31 PM
Thanks... I think I'm at about 20 hours modeling roughly estimated... This mesh is pre-smooth, I smooth it for renders and to check the shape of the final obviously.

animalunae
01-10-2006, 11:05 AM
An update, redid the rear legs, still working on the base for the head.

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_wire_010.jpg

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_wire_011.jpg

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_wire_012.jpg

EricCartman
01-10-2006, 07:07 PM
Hey Derby,

I am about to start modeling a horse for a personal project as well and was wondering what kind of "blueprints" are you using. If you could PM me so that would be great. Thanks.

Keep up the good work. It looks freaking awesome.

animalunae
01-10-2006, 10:32 PM
Piece of advice. When you model things like animals, don't use blueprints, you have to create something that we see daily in perspective, modeling orthographic will give you bad proportions... You can start with a side view, there's plenty of horse pictures taken from the side, but once you have basic proportions, don't touch the side view anymore, work in perspective, look at pictures, sculpt from there, it will get you way better results... Other then that, use anatomy drawings of horses... There's plenty of that on the web, sorry I can't help further.

*Edit* I figured you were a car modeler :) Nice work though.

animalunae
01-25-2006, 06:55 PM
I put the head on it, needs more detail, some rerouting loops, and to me, the horse looks way too young... Still, here's an update I did during lunch break today.

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_wire_020.jpg

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_wire_021.jpg

animalunae
01-28-2006, 12:01 AM
Tweaked proportions, and handing out free candy

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_wire_022.jpg

animalunae
01-28-2006, 12:02 AM
1.5 minute ZBrush Pass, handing out free beer and girls...

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_000.jpg

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_001.jpg

dagann
01-29-2006, 01:46 AM
5 stars for you :)
(i dont understand why so few people are posting on this thread)

really great job. wow
which refrences are you using? (since i'm also working on a horse, it could also interest me )
could we have front and back view too?

Will you animate it?

EDIT: Why i can't see the 5 stars i gave?

admiraligor
01-29-2006, 02:26 AM
I'd like to make a quick point as far as the muscles are concerned: Horses are VERY musclular, this is actually near spot on. The only thing that makes it seem less apparent is the hair. Lemme give you an example:

http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/Graceful_Horses/elegant-horse.jpg

This depends slightly though, but seeing as how your horse is probably ridden bare back (wizard in this case), it's a fast runner and will have more muscle mass. The only not so musclular horses out there are those that just graze and eat all day. Hope I helped a bit.

Bryan Y
01-29-2006, 04:42 AM
Ok, I just found this thread by following Derby's profile from the body topology thread in the Maya forum. I just posted a second post in that thread with regard to horse shape and that post has a whole boatload of info.

It almost looks as if Derby has indeed changed the arch of the neck a little as I recommended and added a hint of withers - and it looks great!

For simplicity I might as well just copy and paste and say what I said over there because apparently this is the thread to do it in. Also, I hope you don't mind me giving more tips/info/advice. As I learn more about what the role of your horse is, I can maybe give you even more specific info. The role matters.

Anyway, verbatim from the other thread:

Some further notes on horse shapes/topology:

Above the eyebrow on most horses (usually more prominent on older horses) is an indentation. It also pulses when the horse chews. I notice it's non-existent on your model.

Another common feature is a prominent skull component extending longitudinally with the face from the bottom of the eye about halfway towards the nostril - it's very prominent on most horses.

For visuals on both of the above described features, look here and here:
http://www.hi2winners.com/tc/secretariat.jpg

http://www.msuarabians.com/images/main-image.jpg

A simplistic and easy way to visualize nostrils and ears when viewing a horse face on is this: The nostrils and the ears are comma/apostrophe shapes turned upside down. Some horses have this look moreso than others - but it's a definite 'curly' feature to the shape of those sensors.

The topology of the ear should anticipate a deformation/rigging that will allow a rotation about its longitudinal axis nearly 180 degrees, as the ear pivots around to sense sounds in all directions - each independently of the other. They pivot about and lay back to indicate anger and a threatening posture as well.

With regard to teeth, the front incisors will become more parrot shaped the older the horse gets - in other words, they tend to curve moreso with age. Wolf teeth are fangs between the incisors and the molars - sometimes present and sometimes not.

The vein (I see now that it is not a vein but a muscle border, but it looks like a vein) on your model rising through the forearm and into the chest seems too prominent - I hang around horses a lot and pet and stroke that area frequently, and my eyes and fingers typically don't encounter that.

A search on Google with keywords 'horse conformation' should yield up an excellent set of resources, visual and textual. There are whole books with that title as well.

Link and visuals for foot conformation: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hollis/bestfoot.htm

Andalusians are spectacular horses (Think Vienna Riding School). Here's a hires image which really drives home the concept of upside down commas/apostrophes with regard to ears and nostrils, as well as huge stout necks on stallions: http://www.skeltonandalusians.com/Jpeg%20Pics/Field%20conformation%20shot.jpg

Arabians have one less vertebrae and set of ribs, usually resulting in a slightly shorter torso.

One of the interesting things you might want your topology in the mouth area to allow is flehmen - natural reaction to aid in smelling: Pictures:
http://borntobewild.planetaclix.pt/imagens/flehmen.jpg
http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/Clydesdales/images/flehman.gif
http://www.world-wildlife.de/photographik_europa/image/flehmen.jpg
http://membres.lycos.fr/chevalsurlenet/flehmen.jpg

Movie of flehmen: http://zoo2.zool.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ethol/showdetail-e.php?movieid=momo030613ec01b

The movie also happens to show good ear movement. To animate, you're best off observing horse's ear movement with regard to the rider, distractions, things of interest, etc. Don't always animate them in the same direction!

The pupil of a horse's eye is horizontal. Some horses have visible whites around their eyes. Some horses have very bright blue eyes - or one blue eye - generally only on Paints. Some horses are linebacked (duns) - common among Mustangs. If you want to see some seriously good wild horse documentary I highly recommend the DVD "Cloud, Wild Stallions" ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000CBXZX/qid=1138511747/sr=1-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9545065-9184919?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=130 ), an extraordinary video showing some serious horse fighting, dominance plays, interplay, mating, grazing, general behavior and altogether excellent footage of horse movement.

Bryan Y
01-29-2006, 05:13 AM
With regard to the muscles, horses are seriously muscled. And I mean seriously, moreso if they are worked daily. This includes mares. There's a term - "deep bodied mare", and I saw an auctioneer refer to a mare with that term at an auction once - The muscles were insane - her forearm was the size of a watermelon.

As I said in my original post in the topology thread (not duplicated here), conformation is the study of horse proportions, build, etc. - pretty much the underlying issues when modeling a horse.

I would make some decisions sooner rather than later to help you define how this horse should look (if it matters to you). Some questions you should ask:

Stallion, gelding or mare? As I said in the other thread, it plays a role, most notably in the neck. Also culturally. Knights would almost always only ride a stallion.

Time period? What type of horse would exist in your world? An Arabian almost certainly portrayed Gandalf's Shadowfax in Jackson's movie. Arabians go back something like 3,000 years. The horse that Liv Tyler rode to the river (in Fellowship) looked very much like an Andalusian. Of course, such horse breeds weren't "known" in Tolkien's Middle Earth, but obviously there were counterparts.

Good conformation or bad? Horses which undergo athletic stress must be of good conformation - otherwise they go lame. A horse that is a source of pride, visibly, will have good conformation.

Basically, royalty, rich people, horse knowledgeable people, people who require horses to undergo athletic stress will always seek and require a horse with good conformation. In fact, up until the 20th century, horse conformation was pretty much a serious economic factor in all cultures.

A horse with poor conformation will belong to the poor and/or one who cares greatly for their horse or horse in general. Such a horse, regardless, is less likely to be able to undergo athletic stress.

Therefore, if your rider on your horse is a vision of majesty, awe, regalness, fearsomeness, pride, etc., or is knowledgeable with regard to horses, or engages in healthy riding, then your horse must have great conformation, unless he is really poor economically.

More notes: Hidalgo, in the movie, was a Paint/Quarter Horse, playing a Mustang. He was seriously muscled. The horses he raced against in the desert were none other than Arabs - serious endurance horses capable of going 100 miles a day. They are less muscled. Arabian horses typically race in the Tevis Cup, a 100 mile race over very rough terrain up to 10,000 feet of altitude. I believe the Tevis cup record is 13 hours.

Think in human terms: sprinters, medium distance and marathoners - they analogize to Quarter Horses, Thoroughbreds, and Arabians, respectively. Quarter Horses are known for their 1/4 mile sprints. If you want to see some seriously ripped horses, go to a Quarter Horse race and watch them blow out the 1/4 mile (440 yards) in 21 seconds.

Bryan Y
01-29-2006, 05:52 AM
A few more notes: (forgive me)

The horse looks a little croup high. This can again be rectified by giving a little bit more prominence to the withers. The croup is the sloping of the rump from its peak towards its tail. Even then, the croup still seems a little high. As you said though, he looks a little young. A high croup is characteristic of a young horse - perhaps a yearling or a two year old, reflective of the uneven growth of the front and hind legs.

Here's a yearling with a high croup:
http://www.ophb-tcf.org/images/nonpro_yearling_colt.jpg

Also, note his muscle definition (in the photo link above) - and he's only a yearling!

Here's a lower croup: (notice the withers well above the croup)
http://www.1derful.com/business/Albums/aktiva/Aktiva_1998.jpg

Classic Quarter Horse conformation: (notice the withers above the croup again and the serious muscularity)
http://www.todayshorse.com/Images/weight%20horse.gif

Equally important with regard to the croup though, in addition to its height, is how your model shows it at as a continuous rounding - but look closely at the croup in the photos - it slants downward in more of a straight line - this is a common aspect to the croup.


http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_wire_026.jpg

animalunae
01-29-2006, 09:04 AM
Wowie! That's a whole lot o usefull points man, unfortunately my desktop pc is to the fritz and I can't work on it now... happy day off huh...

Bryan, thanks a lot man, really appreciated, I will look into every single point of it, when I got my computer online, thanks.

Admiraligor, thanks! The horse will not be ridden bareback in this case though. I shouldn't have put that wizard in the title, because the "wizards" I talk about don't look quite like he stereotypes like Merlin and Gandalf... I can't talk much about it though, but see my wizards as the once that keep the balance between human kind and mother nature... The story is set in the near future but after a balance disruption happened at around 1910. At the moment, Diian is the name of the wizard, got that messed up when I posted here, doesnt matter much though. Diian looks like a troubled angry guy of about 25, with an amazing amount of knowledge and history, he is more then 200 years old. In any case, I have somebody incredible who will be working on concept, I'm hoping to finish the wizard or mage or whatever quickly after I finish his horse.

Dagann, thanks a lot man, means a lot to me! More people need to give me stars before it shows up, but thanks anyway!

To be continued this afternoon, thanks a lot guys.

*Edit* About the age of the horse... the horse was grasing near the grave of Diian's love, who was a magess. Mother nature has pored some of the powers flowing from the magess back to mother nature, into the horse. It should be about mid aged, but with more history, thats a lot of very usefull info Bryan, sure will come in handy, most terms I never heard before :)

bedlam
01-29-2006, 10:50 AM
howdy, first I want to say that you´ve got a really nice model going there.
but my horse-crazy girlfriend pointed out that..

1. The highest part of the front of the horse (not the head), (whiters in english? or manke in swedish :)) should be at the same height as the highest part of the loins(rear part).
2. The front part of the horse should be larger/more muscular/heavier than the rear parts.

Bryan Y
01-29-2006, 11:05 PM
Bryan, thanks a lot man, really appreciated, I will look into every single point of it, when I got my computer online, thanks.

Glad you appreciate it. I really enjoy this thread, and besides, my own posts are like a set of notes to myself for when I get around to modeling a horse, which is pretty high on my list.

As I think of things, I'll post them, sometimes as sequential posts if that's how they come to mind. Sometimes I provide extra tidbits, because it's just natural for me to throw in extra stuff. Hope you don't mind.

I hope you saw my original post in the Body Topology thread (not duplicated here) where I mentioned a number of things. Link to thread here: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=108412&page=1&pp=15

I mentioned some things about the feet, the neck, and the profile of the horse's head and posted a number of links to pictures.

Anyway, here's more info on teeth. This image ( http://www.ekinos.com.ar/horse6.gif ) shows how a horse's teeth change over the course of their lifetime. It also shows the wolf teeth, the fangs between the incisors and the molars.

Regarding age, a middle aged horse would probably be about 12 to 14. A horse typically lives to be about 25 or so. Many live beyond 30. Some die around 20 or even earlier, mostly due to health issues, as opposed to old age.

Bedlam, I think your girlfriend is right about the croup, as I mentioned earlier. With regard to the muscular bulk of the horse's hind end, it really depends on the breed. I think Derby's horse is about right, but his hind end is more like a Quarter Horse, which, admittedly, is probably not what he's modeling.

More shots of the slanting croup: (and with fairly muscular hind ends)
http://www.quarterh.com/images/dash.jpg
http://zdjecia_konikow.w.interia.pl/guarter%20horse.jpg
http://parkerfarms.com/images/avintageversion/profile.jpg

One thing to realize with regard to modeling horses is the incredible diversity among them - just like people. There are ideals, and their are multiple ideals depending on what a horse might do. Also, the more you study horses, the more you realize the subtle issues which make up their looks.

Images of blue eyes on a horse:
http://horsecityextras.com/albums/Horses/koda_eye_light.sized.jpg
http://www.aristocratichorses.com/images/Little%20Love%20face%20right.jpg

With regard to blue eyes, the images are useful even if you model brown eyes, because they enable you to see the shape of the pupil easier. If you do model a blue eye, the horse should generally only be a Paint, which at the very least, means he has a blaze. (More on blazes later). Also, he can have just one blue eye - pretty common.

Some studs (stallions made available to breed) are hugely developed with regard to muscles, and here's a classic picture depicting that, although this isn't quite the norm:
http://www.westwynde.com/Saguaro_1.99_Paint_Horse_Journal_copy.jpg

Same horse, hind end and sideview:
http://www.westwynde.com/Saguaro_2000_Equine_Chronicle_copy.jpg

Coat colors: I don't know what color your horse is going to be - maybe you've decided, maybe you haven't. However, note that certain breeds (and thus certain conformations) don't generally come in all colors, typically. A POH (Plain Old Horse) may be different. Whatever you decide, at least be aware of the different possible color patterns, which follow rules.

An example of a rule: Bays have black manes and tails. Sorrels don't.

Some basic and common coat colors:

Light Bay: Reddish with black mane and tail.
Dark Bay: Dark brown with black mane and tail.

Gray: White to gray in color, getting more white with age, and not born gray at all, but brown in color.
Fleabitten gray: tiny flecks of black amongst the gray or white.
Dapple Gray: well, dapples.

Dun: Tan with a dark brown line down the back, black mane and tail, and faint zebra markings on the hocks - but subtle.

Buckskin: Light tan with black mane and tail.

Sorrel: Reddish with same color mane and tail.

Chestnut: Similar to sorrel, but a little darker, typically.

Markings: On the face, typically some combination of star, snip, stripe, or a blaze, or even a pidebald. A blaze is a wide white mark extending from the forehead to the muzzle, and almost extending to the eyes. A piebald surrounds at least one eye, found only on Paints.

Leg markings: none, or a coronet, pastern, sock or stocking.

Here's an important note, get it right: Hooves with a coronet, pastern, sock or stocking mark on the leg are white. Otherwise, the hoof is black. (Not literally, but tending towards one or the other). Black hooves are often considered hardy, and, note that a Dun typically does not have white feet, and thus not white hooves, and thus is considered to be hardy. Is it any coincidence that wild horses commonly evolve to the Dun coloration? Similar coat colors to the Dun are the Grulla.

I'll find you some coat color pics later. Have fun.

EDIT: Paints don't have to have blazes (as I may have said earlier), or even a strip - it's just a more typical trait. My friend - she has a Paint and the horse barely has a star - however, if a horse has a blue eye - he's much more likely to have a blaze or more likely to be piebald - it has to do with the pigmentation around the face.

EricCartman
01-30-2006, 09:56 AM
Hey guys,

Kick ass thread! I just started working on a horse yesterday and all this will come handy. I started with the head and since I am new to organic modeling I guess I have a long way to go.

Don't know if I should open my own thread or maybe stick my nose in here.

If anyone wishes to help me out, here is a pic: Picture (http://x3dx.com/forum/attachments/horse_head02%5B5%5D.jpg)

animalunae
01-30-2006, 12:10 PM
Holy cow, you are unstoppable arent you? Thanks a bunch Bryan, this sure will come in handy. My pc is finally installed again, when I get home tonight I will put some extra attention into following up on you comments, this will be great!

Bedlam, tell your crazy horse-girlfriend, *just a bit of fun ofcourse*, tell your, no-doubt, lovely girlfriend she's absolutely right! Thanks a lot.

Eric_Cartman, thanks, I think it's best to put up your own thread, I've found it more usefull and we can always keep it tidy this way :) Anyway, good start though, don't detail too soon, the thing I teach my students is; what's the difference between my box and my concept... at that level it's not the fact that there's no eyes, ears or nostrils, it's the fact that a box is too high, isnt rotated properly, and misses a subdiv in the middle :) What I mean by that, is that you should always leave the detail for when you think the base is finished, makes it easier to tweak and you'll find yourself working more then twice as fast. Good luck on your horsey!

Bryan Y
01-30-2006, 05:25 PM
Hey guys,
Don't know if I should open my own thread or maybe stick my nose in here.

If anyone wishes to help me out, here is a pic: Picture (http://x3dx.com/forum/attachments/horse_head02%5B5%5D.jpg)
I think Derby's right in that you should start your own thread. Naturally, all that I have posted here would hopefully be of value as well. so if you do start your own thread, I think it would help to refer to this one as well.

But a few quick notes on your horse head: general shape is really good. It looks like the nostrils and eyelids are just rough ins and will be tweaked, or so I'm assuming because they need shape adjustment. A horse's eyelids are kind of an exaggerated human eye (the curvy swoop up from the tear duct (and down as well) and then going to a mild point at the outside. Almost like taking a human eyelid (not the eyeball) and scaling it 60% or so in the vertical direction.

About your horse's ears - oddly enough, they conform to the upside down comma as I mentioned - but they're reversed! The ear tips curve inward.

Pictures to illustrate point:
http://dbruce.homestead.com/exxcaliber.jpg
http://www.scoutisaband.com/blog/alijamaal.jpg
http://www.flyingarancharabians.com/images/hchampion.jpg
http://arabiansites.com/twincreekfarms/class/bita/bita1.jpg
http://www.circlemfarm.dk/imm15a.jpg

Good picture showing full body with muscles - Quarter Horse type, shows ears as well:
(hooves have polish on them - ignore the color)
http://www.skippremiere.com/new%20super.jpg

Similar picture:
http://www.kenoyerpainthorses.com/images/DudleyWorld_2003.jpg


By the way, here are some really good Google terms (that you might not be aware of to dig up good pictures):

halter champion
horse conformation
dressage
hunter jumper
stakes winners
horse of the year

admiraligor
01-30-2006, 05:28 PM
for future reference: try to avoid answering any major replies that are obviously a form of Hijacking, that will only deter the path of the original artist in the original thread. Mate, I understand you wanted to post it, but do make your own thread.

Bryan Y
01-30-2006, 05:41 PM
Deleted: because we don't need a conversation about what constitutes hijacking.

admiraligor
01-30-2006, 05:45 PM
Deleted for same reason.

Bryan Y
01-30-2006, 05:46 PM
Ok, no problem.

Bryan Y
01-30-2006, 06:29 PM
Derby, there are some things I'm curious about.

Gender: Stallion, gelding or mare? Right now, she looks like a mare. If he's not, then his sheath might need to be a little bit more prominent.

Coat color: Any ideas yet?

Shod or barefoot? Barefoot is not uncommon, and would be easier. However, you could do some interesting detail if he was shod. Notably, the nails come up from the bottom and puncture the outside of the hoof's side where the nail tips are clipped off. Also, a really nice touch would be the nail holes from the prior shoeing, which would be about 2cm below the current nails.

Barefoot hoof:
http://paintbynumberca.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/rfronthealthy3.jpg

Black barefoot hoof:
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/pix/Angle1.jpg

Shod hoof: (you can just barely see where the former nail holes were at the bottom. Often, they are higher)
http://www.foxtrotters.org/Correct_Hoof1no_dubbing.jpg

White shod hoof:
http://www.wernersfarrierservice.com/gw7777103-0324_IMG.jpg

By 1910, the two major separate forms of riding were established (English and Western). Any thoughts? That is, if you're going to represent the rider on the horse. There's a third versatile type of saddle - almost a cross between the two: the Australian stock saddle - similar in some respects to the cavalry soldiers of the 19th century. One thing to note: You don't jump with a Western saddle - as the horn punches you in the stomach.

animalunae
01-30-2006, 07:07 PM
Allright Bryan, I closely read your posts, also on the body top thread, and made a whole bunch of notes, now to answer your questions regarding the horse;

In the first encounters with the horse (which will be told in flashbacks) he's a young wild black stallion, with perhaps white feet and spot on the head, but due to the nature of the wizard's job, I would prefer it if the horse is completely black. The horse is grazing in some scottish highlands at around 1900... the fact that I want it to be a wild horse is quite irrelevant, it might as well have been a horse that ran away or was set free, I don't need this information for the story, since the horse changes internally, mentally in that first scene. What happens is that the love of the wizard dies and when he burries her, usually the powers the wizard recieved from mother nature, flow back into the earth, some of the power of the woman hang on because of the love for Diian though (which is the male wizard and the main character) and cling on to the grass and flow over into the horse. This creates the bond between the wizard and the horse, therefor, it might work with a wild stallion or a set free tame stallion. Also, I don't want to restrict the horse to one that's born on the plains of England. It might as well be a royal horse, escaped after it's knight got killed... also, the timeline will eventually change a lot, the story is still in rough...

From this point, the wizard is on the run, those wizards keep the balance between nature and mankind and therefor also the inner balance of humans, their greed versus their love for others and nature. Because of a conflict, the wizards get extinct and the power flow is interrupted, therefor, nature does no longer recieves the magic from the dying wizards and no new wizards are born. This creates the crisis; chaos...

The story in the main storyline is set around 100 years later, about our present, so the horse is more then a 100 years old... the fact that it's still alive is due to the magic, which gives wizards their long life. So at this point I want to show the horse as a 10 year old stallion, who did not have training, but is constantly being ridden, quite some distances also, and although it would be cool, he does not need to be able to be a super sprinter.

So basically, a black (royal) young (2 then 10) stallion, which is loved rather then trained, and I don't think I would make him barefooted, that gives me more chances to get some more interractions which could add to storytelling and since it has to walk on old broken roads mostly, it would be better for the animal I suppose...

If I might add, your knowledge overwhelmed me and although I did do a bit of research, I learned about 5 times more from your posts! Thank you kindly!

animalunae
01-30-2006, 07:13 PM
Ok, another thing to note, considering there's a crisis, saddles and the other aspects of the props, whatever they might be called, arent very glamerous. He doesnt ride it bareback though. The wizard was ones a general and proud warrior, but was brought into exile and is now hunted by more then one faction, he wears black long clothes, to protect him against unfriendly eyes (if I might borrow a quote) and an almost constant rain. He is ragged out, and so are his clothes and horse. He's a bountyhunter in the second dark times, this time also quite literally since clouds and smoke of burning cities are covering the skies, there's not much sunlight to brighten the scene really...

Bryan Y
01-30-2006, 07:40 PM
Derby, it sounds like you've got some really good ideas going there. And your information about the story does indeed have ramifications on your horse model - and it sounds like you're making some of the right choices too - i.e. if he engages in a lot of riding on rough roads, then he should be shod, etc. Of course, some people wouldn't care, but I care, and you care, and I like it when artists pay attention to detail - it just makes richer material.

If I might add, your knowledge overwhelmed me and although I did do a bit of research, I learned about 5 times more from your posts! Thank you kindly!
I really appreciate being appreciated. Thank you so much for letting me know. Based on the additional information you've given me, I have more info and ideas to give you, but no time at the moment. Hopefully I'll post more later this evening (California time).

Bryan Y
01-31-2006, 03:11 AM
A few points, based on what you've said...

A completely black horse is valid. My friend recently bought an all black horse, with the exception of about 5 white hairs on the forehead. In point of fact, a Friesian must be all black to qualify for the Friesian registry. While on the subject of Friesians, do a search on Google Images with 'Friesian' for some astounding imagery of horses which really hit the 'regal/majestic' mark with regard to looks. However, Friesians are very distinct, and unless you really want a Friesian, I wouldn't model a Friesian - but you could definitely draw some inspiration from their looks.

With regard to a formerly wild stallion, that's totally plausible, whether he escaped, or was born wild.

With regard to stallions in general, there are a few key points. The neck must be more stout and beefy. The sheath (for geldings as well) should be more obvious. The sheath is what the penis retracts into. It's nothing unattractive or obvious, so modeling it shouldn't be a detractor. It goes without saying that a stallion is not castrated as well. I'll leave that detail up to you.

For impressive and majestic stallions which have long distance capability, the natural horse is the Arabian, which is not exactly what your horse is, based upon his appearance. Like this:
http://www.blackarabs.com/trevallon.html
http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/images/arabian-horse.jpg

There are intermediary alternatives - horses which possess more muscular development than an Arabian, have great endurance, and have that regal look. the Morgan horse comes to mind.

I'm not trying to get you hung up on any particular breed - I'm just presenting to you different looks, and which ones have certain qualities, etc. I think your horse is pretty good - except the neck (to be a stallion). You might want to remove the convexity on the horse's head profile as well.

I think Specatcular Bid is an astounding looking horse. He's a Thoroughbred, and being a Thoroughbred, his legs are a little lean: Nonetheless, an awesome looking horse. Check him out:
http://www.paduastables.com/images/conformation_exchangerate.jpg

Secretariat, perhaps one of the most impressive horses ever - a Thoroughbred:
http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/biographies/secretar.htm

Andalusians are very majestic looking horses as well. In fact, I'd say that doing a Google image search with 'Andalusian' will yield up some very impressive stallions:
http://www.stallions-online.net/photos/8970.jpg
http://www.megacalendars.com/images/1109145219362_Andalusians___9616_FC.jpg
http://www.selwoodpark.com/graphics/davido_title.jpg

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think an Andalusian would be an excellent source for inspiration.

With regard to clothing, here's some info. Any rider worth his salt, and one who values his life, will ride with riding boots - basically a boot with a smooth sole, a fairly pointed toe, and a definite notch where the heel is. Reason: it slides into the stirrup easily, slides out easily, and cannot go past the notch in the heel. This makes riding safer. He would not ride with hiking style boots, sandals, barefoot, or traditional type shoes.

Also, with regard to clothing, here's a cool idea: those duster jackets you see cowboys/outlaws/gunfighters wearing split below the waist expressly for the purpose of draping across both sides of the horse. They cover your legs and saddle effectively when riding in the rain. Alternatives might be a cloak type outfit with the same split at the waist.

With regard to spurs: some consider them inhumane, some consider them the mark of a poor rider, others consider them an excellent tool. In general, spurs don't hurt the horse. There are two types, the single cast piece with a rounded 'spur' and the roller type, which typically has sharper points, but is made to roll when pressed agains the horse - neither really hurts, but if abused, they can cause pain.

Final note that has no value whatsoever with regard to your endeavor, but perhaps interesting: wild horses band together in what are called bands. There are two kinds: the bachelor band and the harem of mares with a single stallion.

The bachelor band is composed of male (stallions) who can't get their own harem. Think of them as a rowdy bunch of teenage boys out looking for a good time. However, they just can't compete with more mature stallions.

The harem is all mares, one stallion and the offspring (male and female) of the stallion and his mares. When the young males become about one year old, they're driven off by the head stallion. They then incorporate themselves into a bachelor band. The head stallion then defends his harem against bachelors who come around trying to steal mares. This results in serious fighting, kicking with front legs, rear legs, biting, chasing, and rearing up against each other. Sometimes a bachelor will win himself a whole harem or at least a mare or two.

With regard to flehmen, a stallion is going to exhibit it whenever he catches the scent of a mare. It's a way to capture the interesting scent within their olfactory senses, and then sense and explore it in greater detail.

Another thing: Stallions are dangerous and often difficult animals to handle. Caution is necessary. I read a book that quoted a tiger trainer as saying that he considered a foul tempered stallion to be far more dangerous than any tiger. Stallions have killed people. There was a true story about a woman who entered the stall of a somewhat foul tempered stallion. She was literally ripped to pieces. On that DVD I recommended about wild horses, there is some video of a stallion picking up a newborn foal (sixty pounds) in his jaws, and shaking the foal about like a cat would shake a mouse - to kill it.

animalunae
01-31-2006, 06:06 AM
I think I will go with an Andalusian. I especially like the way it looks a bit more wild and a bit more royal then the other images. I know it's not going to be an Arabian.

The clothing for the rider is indeed a coat with a split, and he will wear pointy shoes with slight heels... in fact, that's all I ever wear and it's supposed to be autobiographical :P

Thanks again for all the clues, have to run to work now.

Ego
01-31-2006, 09:48 AM
Good job Wim :thumbsup:

Tagger
01-31-2006, 10:12 AM
great model, i'm sure you're gonne teach us how to model like that in the organic modeling module .... right ??? :P

animalunae
01-31-2006, 10:15 AM
Jow Jelmen...

Unfortunately I'm probably not going to be able to get every pc a wacom and ZBrush :P But upto the modeling, topology and shape, sure... if you're upto it *grin* If you're not, I'll fail you :twisted: (People generaly don't see this as a joke, hence the fact that people run out the classroom screaming every year... oh well, it was a joke, you should know after I let you pass for your animation class :P > The jokes keep on coming!)

Queen, thanks a lot girl!

Ego
01-31-2006, 10:38 AM
great model, i'm sure you're gonne teach us how to model like that in the organic modeling module .... right ??? :P
You are lucky your teacher is good. So you better listen to him in class!
Oh and take him some chocolate chip cookies too. :D

sergioKomic
01-31-2006, 11:01 AM
Man horsies are haunting me...

But yours is to good to be ignored...(I should know)

5* pure and simple!

Im shure when you are done with it itll be in the choise gallery!:thumbsup:

Bryan Y
01-31-2006, 05:10 PM
I think I will go with an Andalusian. I especially like the way it looks a bit more wild and a bit more royal then the other images. I know it's not going to be an Arabian.
I think an Andalusian look would be great! I figured you wouldn't go with an Arab - the body style is just too different. However, they are really hardy horses.

A few more points (yeah, I know, it just doesn't stop)

Your horse is sickle hocked. I was looking at some conformational points, and comparing them to your model. Drop a plumb line from the rear of the butt and it should touch the rear hock and fetlock. References:
http://www.dekabat.com/conform.html
http://www.stallingspainthorses.com/farrier/farrierhocks.htm
http://www.ekinos.com.ar/horse12.jpg
http://www.equinespas.com.au/

Also, the hocks themselves look a little long from front to back, as compared to the fetlock. Comapre to reference imagery.

Chestnuts: Don't forget them. They're a horny growth on the inside of each leg just below the hocks (rear) and above the knee (front). By knee, I mean what is commonly called a horse's knee, but, anatomically, the equivalent of our wrist. If you rig him, you might want to take extra care to make sure that portion of that geometry (the chestnut) gets uniform weighting, so it wouldn't deform.

EDIT: Note - chestnuts are below the hock (rear) and above the knee (front). You just might have to go out and look at some horses in person to better understand - reference imagery is lacking. Also, I can't stress enough how at least one trip to a local stable to do some chatting with local horse owners who will allow you to interact a little (and touch and pet) their horses will make a difference.

Bryan Y
01-31-2006, 05:38 PM
Just found this: Boise Art Museum site has reference data for artists scultping horses.

http://www.boiseartmuseum.org/education/horsesculpting.htm

Nothingness
01-31-2006, 06:25 PM
hey wim,

already told ya in my mail that it looks great! I don't know if it makes sense but the tekst in your first post doesn't seem to fit the image shown and it confused me for a few seconds.

Can hardly wait for the textures!

greetz :thumbsup:

EricCartman
01-31-2006, 07:37 PM
Here is a link to a sweet horses gallery... majority of pictures are in ultra high-res (over 2000px). Just click on the thumb and then again click on the larger picture.

http://www.johncoxon.com/gallery/DOMESTIC-ANIMALS-%3AHorse

Bryan Y
02-01-2006, 02:52 AM
Derby,
I don't know how familiar you are with horses in the flesh, but I was thinking about the underneath portion of the jawline - it's not something you would intuit from photos, it's more something you would know from putting your hand underneath the jaw and feeling. It's hard to tell from your model, but from the chin to the neck - if you put your hand there, there is a groove about an 2cm deep and 4 to 5cm wide running lengthwise with the jaw.

If you do get a chance to visit some real horses (assuming it's not something you do oridnarily) be sure to check it out.

EricCartman
02-01-2006, 08:47 AM
I was working on the horse's head yesterday and I searched google images like crazy for a reference photo of the bottom part of the head and couldn't find any. We have quite a few horses near by but in winter time they mostly stay inside. :(

animalunae
02-01-2006, 10:42 AM
Queen: Hah, how did you know :P

Sergio: Thanks man, although modeling alone isn't enough... I need to get a good comp and lighting to get into the choice gallery :P Doubt that will be the case on this one, but thanks a lot though.

Bryan: Thanks again for the info, this thread is becoming the reference place for modeling horses :) I didnt know those chestnuts were something that is persent with all horses... figured them for some sort of fungus or something :) Btw nice find on the Boise Art Museum

Nico: Thanks a b. The image in the first post is just my latest update, I'm going to do another one this afternoon I hope, so I'll put it in a new post at the end and update that one in the first image... so people arent scared off by the first boring looking maya renders :)

Eric_Cartman: That site indeed is very usefull, I have taken most of my images from that... Also, please create a thread of your own for making comments about your work, to avoid trouble :)

animalunae
02-01-2006, 11:34 AM
For reference and just in case the Topology thread runs out of hand and I have to search through it to get the comments you didnt put here, I'll just put them in here;


Derby, great horse! I have some suggestions and info if you're interested. I don't doubt you're a better modeler than I am, but I may know a few things about horses that could improve your model.

The hooves are a little big, but good horses have good sized feet. It's a conformational trait - conformation is a term used in the horse business to describe a horse's proportions and build. It's all about conformation, and big feet are good. Generally, though, lighter build horses have a little bit smaller feet, and draft horses have huge feet.

Regarding the neck, I was looking at it trying to figure how you could make it a little narrower at the head end and less narrow at the body end, and then I realized what is not very prominent in your model - the withers. The withers are the hump at the top of the shoulder where the neck joins the body. Your horse has no withers!

Regarding the withers, I believe Thoroughbreds have prominent withers, Quarter Horses a little less prominent - just some observations I've made. My friend's Thoroughbred has very prominent withers.

If your horse is a stallion, his neck should be more stout and arched, as the hormones in stallions allow for greated muscular development in the neck. Geldings and mares will have less bulky necks.

From a conformational point of view, the neck is maybe a tad bit ewe necked - not a desirable trait. Again, it depends on what you're trying to portray.

Regarding the horse's head - he's got a roman nose - a common trait among horses. Other horses have dish faced noses (opposite of roman noses). If your horse is to be an Arabian, he must have a dished face. Thoroughbreds typically have straight noses. Same with Quarter Horses. Your horse's head almost reminds me of an Akhal Teke - I've only seen pictures of them - they're fairly rare.

Arabians have narrow frames (when viewed from the front) and are not stockily built. Your horse has a good build on him - conformationally, his body, forearms and hind end resemble a quarter horse. If he's a cow horse, then he's got a good build, but perhaps if that was the case he could benefit from even a little bit more muscle in the chest and forearm area.

His nostrils are pretty good - just remember, a conformationally desireable horse has good sized nostrils. It's hard to tell from this angle, but the inner part of the nostril might want to deflect a little bit more into the interior space of the nostril.

Anyway, I'm pretty impressed with your model, and my comments are only here to help you take it to the next level. Also, as I said, the purpose of the horse plays a huge role in his shape.

To recap: Thoroughbreds (1 1/4 milers) are tall, lean, fairly muscular, and have prominent withers.

Arabs (100 milers) are slender and narrow, and have dish faces.

Quarter Horses (cow horses) are muscular, a little bit shorter (than Thoroughbreds).

Destriers (War horses of yesteryear) are stout and huge.

Warmbloods (Dressage and Jumpers) are as big or bigger than Thoroughbreds and are a little bit more stout, but not stout like a war horse or a draft horse.

Arched necks are good, big feet are good. Straight legs are good. Moderately prominent withers are good. Handsome faces matter.

Anyway, you probably know all this stuff. What are you going to use your model for?

A classic picture showing Secretariat's excellent conformation. Note his neck and withers (picture is a bit small though): http://www.thoroughbredchampions.co...es/secretar.htm (http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/biographies/secretar.htm)

Arab (with an arched neck): http://www.horses-and-horse-informa...abian-horse.jpg (http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/images/arabian-horse.jpg)

Arab (dish face and small ears): http://www.msuarabians.com/images/main-image.jpg

Thoroughbred (Secretariat) stallion, stout neck, moderate withers: http://richmondthenandnow.com/Image...Secretariat.jpg (http://richmondthenandnow.com/Images/Famous-People/Secretariat.jpg)

Stout neck: http://www.horse-vacation.com/img/ShirazRafe.jpg

Quarter Horse type, good looking conformation, handsome face: http://7art-screensavers.com/screen...egant-horse.jpg (http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/Graceful_Horses/elegant-horse.jpg)

Appaloosa with Quarter Horse build: http://www.idsos.state.id.us/elect/horse.jpg

The very handsome face of Secretariat: http://www.hi2winners.com/tc/secretariat.jpg

You probably know there are about 100 or more horse breeds, each with their own conformational traits. I tried to hit on some of the major ones.

gpepper
02-01-2006, 11:50 AM
It looks nice ! Great job here ! Can't wait for the next steps !

animalunae
02-01-2006, 12:11 PM
Well, I've got a quick lunchbreak update, don't mind the artifact near the neck, had to cut up the mesh in ZBrush to be able to export it at 4 divisions...

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_020.jpg

Djampa
02-01-2006, 03:11 PM
Very nice model, congratulations!
You are on the right way, will track your progress, nice story too I got curious.

Keep going !

Bryan Y
02-01-2006, 04:36 PM
Bryan: Thanks again for the info, this thread is becoming the reference place for modeling horses :)
I am almost tempted to write a tutorial on modeling horses, but I really need to start modeling my own horse. (acutally, I started last night).

I have archived about 6,000 horse photos I took about two years ago (all 6 megapixel: 3k x 2k) - some of them might be useful, if I get a chance to dig through them - it depends on what angles you're looking for or what features you want to see.

There are three renders I'd be interested in seeing: a view face on of the face, an exact sideview of the face, and a 3/4 view of the face (a little more face on then the one you just posted).

With regard to a full body sideview shot - lower the camera as if you were a photographer kneeling a little - get the camera just below the height of the withers (about mid torso). Reason being, that's the classic way to shoot a horse, and it will compare well with photos. Better yet, throw on a 200mm lens, shoot in the 35mm format and render away!

Eric: If you'd start your own thread, I'd like to view your progress. There are probably unique and different things I could suggest about your model.

EricCartman
02-01-2006, 04:42 PM
I created my thread... it was never my intention to "hijack it". I just posted a pic and when the author suggested I should create my own I backed off :)

Here is my thread: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=314952

I'll be keeping a close eye on this one as well.

Nothingness
02-01-2006, 05:31 PM
okay,

the skin around the eye makes it look very nice. I'm just thinking about the smoothness around the mouth. Could it be too smooth?

I can't find any good examples so i'll let it be for now!

chances are it gets fixed in the texture



great going

animalunae
02-01-2006, 05:41 PM
When I checked the thread this evening and saw my render I said, damn, that's not good at all!, and I'm just now installing my apps so I could detail the mouth, good point, don't hesitate to point these things out, once I was very quickly troubled if someone pointed something out about my work, now I can't get enough crits really... though if everyone would say it sucked, I'd get back to wanting compliments though :P

Bryan Y
02-01-2006, 07:16 PM
Quick note: I think your cheekbones are too long. They look good, but they shouldn't extend that far down the face.

There are other issues as well, but I know you're not done and still digesting a lot of info. I'm looking forward to new renders.

animalunae
02-01-2006, 08:20 PM
Yeah I kinda redid the last detailing, still messing around with ZBrush settings...

Previous Version:

*deleted*

New Version:

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_002.jpg

animalunae
02-01-2006, 08:32 PM
Another view, I will have to put the same amount of detail as the side of the mouth everywhere on the head, though I think I've got enough detail for the render I will eventually plan to do with it...

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_003.jpg

Nothingness
02-01-2006, 08:48 PM
when you see the comparisation it's rather obvious!

the detail of the vain makes in nice. I don't know if you can see this king of detail on a real horse with the skin.

The softer wrinkels makes the horse a lot younger. Don't know how old Diian actually should be :buttrock:

anyway, great improvements. The mouth and nose-holes look better too

animalunae
02-01-2006, 08:53 PM
Thanks Nico, I don't use much imagination when I'm modeling "wanna-be-realistic" stuff :) The vains are there, I just stole them from a real horse... now he might have some problems with nosebleeds I think :P

Anyway, as I mentioned somewhere in the zillion facts above is that, first, I missed when I was posting, Diian is actually the wizard :P, insomnia and all hehe... And second, the horse will eventually become about 100 years old, but 12-20 physically, because of slow aging, caused by the "reflow" of magic, in time this will become clear, perhaps I'll give you some background on the story after class, can't risk that the entire story gets stolen, now that it's still rather original :P

JHarford
02-01-2006, 09:18 PM
very good work so far,
i ask please dont rush the zbrushing. :/. Getting the base perfect first is so important for accuracy,your work is promising, almost tempting me to start a horse, they are wonderful creatures. I have a fantastic painting of 3 horse heads, which screams at me every day to model :). Well..., after my other projects.
Keep it up and wow bryan , great work critting! and helping.

Nothingness
02-02-2006, 12:09 AM
okay wim,

looking forward to some backround info.
At this point i've started a much more intense interaction inside CGsociety so at first i try to get the bigger lines before starting to read all in detail.

Like the topology topic: i read like the first 52 pages. Then i had enough. But when i visit more often i can read more posts as they get posted. Better than reading 124 pages of posts.

see you saturday

animalunae
02-02-2006, 08:36 AM
Hey Stripe, thanks, I dig your work. Do you think I rushed into ZBrushing? I have the feeling I put way too much attention into the model in Maya... Well, if there's anything you can note on the Maya mesh, please do, I don't think I will redo the Zdetail at this point, since I just need to finish this still really. But any crits are welcome.

nebezial
02-02-2006, 12:28 PM
holy cr..maan that is what i call a horse..the details are dead on perfect..u gonna make a rider too???

animalunae
02-02-2006, 12:33 PM
Hah Stjepan, ofcourse, I was actually just going to contact you about that again :) Problem is I need funding... I was just finishing up the last of this detail and planning on starting on the leather straps and such... I'll explain more tonight.

nebezial
02-03-2006, 08:13 AM
haha..whoa..i didnt even notice this was ur work..i was just interested cause i was makin a forse like thing for my spectacular entry, haha..awesome, well talk no worries:surprised :beer:

EricCartman
02-04-2006, 09:29 AM
As this thread is some sort of reference for horse modelers I just wanted to post these pics:

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/eqairway/images/anat-illustr/dissecthead550bl.jpg
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/eqairway/images/anat-illustr/leftsagsectionbl.jpg
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/eqairway/images/anat-illustr/medisectionbl.jpg

Bryan Y
02-06-2006, 04:15 AM
So, how's the horse coming along?

animalunae
02-06-2006, 09:10 PM
At the moment I'm in need of your help, Bryan :) Could you contact me by email if you have a moment?

nebezial
02-06-2006, 09:19 PM
umm...just realised sumthin...is that mini enayla on ur avatar bwahahaha lolll too hilarious:thumbsup:

SUS
02-08-2006, 06:33 AM
Excellent model ! :bounce:

Keep with the great work!

animalunae
02-08-2006, 11:33 AM
Heya Thanks Sus, I'm actually going to change proportions on the head a bit, still looks too young to me.

Stjep, yeah :P Got a whole love-fest theme going, hugging all my CGsociety girls :)

I'm hoping I can start the armor for the horse this week, this thread is a bit quiet of late, for which I'm sorry, my computer is giving me a hard time and costing me a lot of money lately, so I haven't been able to work at 100%. I also got a ton of work on administration for one and also on the story and script, which needs to be finished by the time the still is finished, so I can send it to the moneybags :P

Thanks for the motivation guys!

Nothingness
02-09-2006, 06:52 PM
so, does that mean the horse itself is finished?

how's work? Been doing to much modeling instead of texturing :p

cu zaterdag

animalunae
02-09-2006, 10:05 PM
It's never finished, but I'm going to change props a bit and just go ahead and try to get the texture, shader and hair right... I'm still on a deadline, don't have a lot more to spend on the model...

Work is going ok... something a bit closer to home could be welcome though... but yeah, it's nice, I've actually been doing texturing for about 1.5 weeks straight and the next thing on my plate is also texturing, so I'm on the right track :P Though I'd rather model :)

Bryan Y
02-10-2006, 02:01 AM
Just checking in... did my remarks/comments in the email help you?

Bryan Y
02-11-2006, 01:23 AM
Here's a link to a thread I found on modeling a horse that was around slightly before I joined. The guy did a pretty darn good job, and he had a couple of people giving some good info as well.

His horse head is really good: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259831

animalunae
03-14-2006, 11:38 AM
Here's another update, armor is wonderfully designed by Stjepan Ejic. I will now redo most of the uv maps for the horse, redo the displacement mapping and add displacement on the armor, this will be fun!

I might wait untill after my challenge entry is done, by then I'll have found some more things to tweak I bet.

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_004.jpg
http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_005.jpg
http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_006.jpg

dagann
03-14-2006, 01:44 PM
Glad to see you back with another update.

Very nice armor.
However i think the plate head is very narrow and not very protective.
But i guess Stjephan Ejic designed this way.

Bryan Y
03-14-2006, 03:35 PM
Looking good! I was wondering when we would see another update. Glad to see you're back. So you've opted to start over with the displacement map?

I also note you went ahead and articulated the neck armor. It looks good. I can't wait to see more updates.

animalunae
03-14-2006, 03:38 PM
heya Guys, yeah I think I will need to optimise render time, cut out what I don't need, so I should also remap this sucker and redetail it again. I can also cut up the texture because the seams can easily be covered by the armor.

Bryan Y
03-14-2006, 03:48 PM
I'm curious: did you ever do teeth for your horse? On the one hand, most of the time you don't need them. On the other hand, for any lengthy animation work, teeth are going to give you a lot of flexibility for adding nuanced and detailed animation. I've started working on my own horse's teeth (thread here: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=319563&page=1&pp=20 ) but I have no renders yet.

There are so many things you can do with teeth in animation: chewing the bit, lip smacking, aggression, biting, nipping, yawning, flehmen...

nebezial
03-14-2006, 10:01 PM
yo derby you ass, u never said it was this far done..and it kicks butts cant believe how precisely you transferred the armor. man ur insane:thumbsup:

animalunae
03-14-2006, 10:13 PM
yo derby you ass, u never said it was this far done..and it kicks butts cant believe how precisely you transferred the armor. man ur insane:thumbsup:

:P Glad you feel it does justice to your concept, wait till the displacement is on there :)

Bryan, at the moment, I just need the still, definitely no animation yet, eventually I'll remodel the horse completely, to work in the shots I will need...

sergioKomic
03-15-2006, 10:42 AM
I love everything but the bolts...:wavey:

DivineRAiN
03-18-2006, 12:41 AM
looks really good Derby.. wow, you've done an amazing job on this so far

Bryan Y
03-18-2006, 02:46 AM
Bryan, at the moment, I just need the still, definitely no animation yet, eventually I'll remodel the horse completely, to work in the shots I will need...
Sounds like a lot of work. You think your model would need to be remodeled completely for animation purposes?

animalunae
03-18-2006, 03:56 PM
Thanks a lot guys! Sergio, I will put a nice little pattern on the bolts :P

Bryan, I think there will be several remodelisation, for one, there's going to be a version that will have muscle systems on it, another will be plainly skinned, with topology corrections, stuff like that, for now, I'll use this horsey :)

I was just trying to tweak the proportions a bit, because I didn't like it's stature even after the armor was added. I found this picture; I love this horse, this will be how Diian's Horse will look like for sure! The hair is just gorgeous and the proportions are nice, majestic and yet dapper :)

Bryan, my horse-consultant, could you please tell me what horse this is? I might want to search for some better reference on that, so I can get more shots of the hair and such.

Bryan Y
03-18-2006, 04:27 PM
It looks a lot like a Friesian, don't you think?

Try this link: http://images.google.com/images?q=friesian&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

animalunae
03-18-2006, 04:31 PM
Yeah, I was just about to post that I found it, but thanks a lot. Say, how do you think I could change these proportions more to get the horse to look a bit taller, stronger, ...

Bryan Y
03-18-2006, 05:00 PM
Those images are rendered with a wide angle lens, so the distortion is high, and it's hard to make a judgement.

For horse photography (and rendering) I recommend a 200mm lens if shooting a 35mm format. I think that translates to a horizontal field of view of 12 degrees. Also, when doing side views, place the camera about 10 inches below the withers. I might be able to make a better assessment then.

animalunae
03-18-2006, 05:21 PM
Okie, how bout a side view? I changed the height of the rear part, whatever it's called :) and I think it looks better, though he looks a bit smaller, perhaps make his legs a bit longer or something? I dunno... I also changed the width a lot, that does a lot I feel.

thondal
03-18-2006, 05:58 PM
it seems to me that the references picture or whatever you call it, that the horse is a bit more muscular... don't know how to put it.... i'll watch how it develops and then come back to it if it hasn't changed....:P

-thondal-

Bryan Y
03-18-2006, 11:25 PM
I think the "after" model does look better.

For "tall and strong", look at Andalusians.
For "tall and lean", look at Thoroughbreds.
For "medium height and really muscular", look at Quarter Horses.
For "medium height and slender", look at Arabs.
For "stout and tall", look at draft breeds, such as the Percheron, Clydesdale, Shire, etc. These are considered "coldbloods" though, and shouldn't be used as a model if you want a horse with some fire and speed.

Friesians are "tall and strong" as well, and have a unique look.

Some notes on your model: the fetlocks are too long (front to back). I think most of your improvements should be in the leg shape and proportions. Really look hard at conformationally correct specimens and their legs. Also, you might want to study the shape of the croup in more detail.

Note that the above listed breeds all have different leg builds, so study the appropriate breed.

animalunae
03-19-2006, 09:55 AM
Will do Bryan, thanks.

Here's a better screenshot and a wire, I updated the saddle a bit, been uv mapping the armor basically, takes enough time, so for a while no interesting updates, unless you guys want to see some checkers on a horsey :P

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_007.jpg

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_008.jpg

Bryan Y
03-19-2006, 10:52 PM
Hey, I forgot to mention, other candidates for "tall and strong" are the class of warmbloods, including Hanoverians, Holsteiners, Oldenburgs, Trakheners and Dutch Warmbloods. All of these are usually high dollar horses and you should find lots of impressive and classy horses to look at.

Take any of those breeds, and append "horse" to it and try a search on google images.

DDS
03-20-2006, 04:27 AM
great folds for the complements u have there man, I love them.

Great anatomy too

animalunae
03-29-2006, 11:04 AM
Heya Bryan, thanks, Diian's horse is definitely a high dollar horse, I'm thinking about changing the back story a bit, since before the crisis, in the story, horses were still very comon, 16th - 17th century, I'm going to let him keep it, the horse will stay the same, it will change a bit in terms of anatomy, because of the crisis, it won't have so much good food and exercise and such, the hair will become a bit more messy, though Diian will take very good care of his horse, at the academy there were people taking care of horses constantly, now it's not that often...

DDS, thanks man, I'm not 100% happy with the folds, but I'll see what I can do in ZBrush, I learned a lot about folds this time around though...

Here's another wee update. I changed the shape a bit, seperated the mesh to be able to add more detail without crashing ZBrush all the time, etc... I redid the uv's and then the Z pass...

http://www.anima-lunae.com/content/wip/diian_009.jpg

Bryan Y
03-29-2006, 06:59 PM
Hey, with regard to the latest rendering...

The muzzle, lips and nostril look really good! The lower jaw looks good. The lower eyelid has the correct shape and thickness.

I would try to add some more prominent bone structure on the forehead, above the eye and behind the eye. And (although it may just be your soft lighting) the facial crest should probably be sharper and more prominent, especially at it's forward end. However, it does appear to be just the right size and located properly though.

I don't know what you're going to do about ear animation, but on my own model I've been wrestling with what kind of topology to have for where the ears join to the head and how to create the proper wrinkles depending on the rotational position of the ears.

I'd really like to see a perfect frontal view closeup of the head, rendered with a 10 degree or so field of view.

Bryan Y
03-31-2006, 05:33 PM
One more crit, if you don't mind...

It appears you've modeled the ears in a semi-sideways oriented position, and that's probably the best way to model them for a bind pose - as it's about halfway between fully forward and full backward. However, the ear shape itself could be better. Some horses have ears about the shape of your horse's, and others very definitely have that prominent inward curling tip that I've mentioned in several threads.

It's your call, but the inward curling tip is very definitely a point of refinement with horses, and generally more common on high dollar horseflesh.

Bryan Y
03-31-2006, 05:43 PM
Also, I was watching Alexander (the recent movie) on DVD last night, and about 1/3 the way into the movie there's a long battle scene that takes place in the desert. I can't remember the name of the battle, but there is some great footage of Alexander riding his horse, which is played by a Friesian. One shot I played over about ten times because I enjoyed it so much. The camera is on the horse's right side, framed on his galloping hooves. And then it cuts to a full shot of Alexander riding the galloping horse, with one or two other horses along side. Anyway, it was very inspiring to watch, to revel in the speed, power and beauty of the animal with the rider on him. Just looking at the shot might give you some inspiration, especially if you're still thinking of modeling a Friesian.

WhiteLynx
04-21-2006, 06:54 AM
Very nice model.
I wasn't thinking on using Zbrush in my model, but after that pass you did on your model... Really thinking about it now!

Nothingness
11-09-2006, 03:37 PM
so, no new update on the horsie ?!

or has it all gone underground into secrecy?
and how about you dragon-slayer redo?

i know, i know, so many questions, so little time :twisted:

ps. i'll be having some questions on portfolio-material
once i get my truck up and running without any flaws.

cheers

animalunae
12-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Texturing in progress, hope to finish with that soon enough, I might need to take a vacation, just so I could work a bit :S

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