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LW3D
12-16-2005, 11:47 PM
NewTek released videos which shows some of the features in LightWave 9 .

ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9/

PaZ
12-17-2005, 12:30 AM
Custom nulls, custom display, faster booleans.
hope there's more to come..

KillMe
12-17-2005, 01:31 AM
edges - cctv - subpatches now too

proton
12-17-2005, 01:34 AM
only 6 demo vidz for now but many more to come. enjoy!

Willax
12-17-2005, 05:39 AM
Would that be the UK version that was used? I noticed the spelling in CCTV movie of 'colour' as compared to the US spelling of 'color'.

KillMe
12-17-2005, 09:17 AM
maybe those americans are learning how to spell :D

opera
12-17-2005, 09:20 AM
hi Proton,

Can you compress more the size of the videos file ?

Very eavy ( my point of view). Can you use a " streaming " codec ? I think you can save half of the size. (maybe you can use 8bit-mono sound too ? -if it's not the case)
For people like me have a slow connection ( and of course so many people downloading at the same time..) it takes hours.

thanks.

opera
12-17-2005, 09:34 AM
I have been watching SBD surfaces...

what happen if you delete a face in the subd mode ? do you have to swith to no subdivide mode to be able to create the polygon .and re subdivide.

Or the polygon is created as a no subdivide surface and you have to select it, and switch it in the SBD mode.



thanks.

Carm3D
12-17-2005, 11:12 AM
I think it would just make a hole.

thomasvandenabeele
12-17-2005, 02:46 PM
seems to me that, apart from edges (and don't get me wrong: that's grrrrrreat - let's just hope we get edge weighting and better rounding with that) nothing that's was shown here is particularly impressive.

thomasvandenabeele
12-17-2005, 04:02 PM
correction: that should have been "apart from edges AND ngon-subDs".

Fongool
12-17-2005, 04:52 PM
I'm hoping they're starting simple and building up to amazing. :D

Emmanuel
12-17-2005, 05:39 PM
We know that NT is currently trying to catch up with the competition, so dont exspect something that the others do NOT have.Its about getting that basic stuff into LW first.
Edges and ngons are pretty fine :) One less reason to switch to Maya.
I wonder if I can determine a render range for CCTV or if it "records" all the time ?

toonafish
12-17-2005, 05:56 PM
Thanks Proton. Personaly these are not really the features I was hoping for in 9.0. So I hope there's some really impressive stuff waiting for us.

what would have been really impressive is if you could link every screen surface to one CCTV shader node with the new Nodal shader. That way we would never have to tweak many surfaces one by one that share settings anymore.

habaņero
12-17-2005, 06:45 PM
I think I would have been far more impressed by this if I only had gotten the edges and the catmull videos, and maybe but not necessarily have those a little more elaborate. Just the simple stuff like UI colours It'll be big and noticeable improvement, I am finicky and so that is really appreciated. But it is like, not exactly a show of strength from the programmers ... Those and some other UI features would make one good single video feature though.

I sortof knew about this before as well. I take it some of the goodness is saved for the release or the demo in London, but this being the only communication in some time on 9 I think at least I was expecting to see only the kind of stuff that make the devs proud of their work. My expectation was this would be sortof a decree from the hearts of the developers to the hearts of the users so to say, like the disney christmas cartoon insect dude, "from all of us to all of you" ... Stuff like a scene render 2-17 times faster or a 2 minute perfect frog skin in nodal or whatnot! We know you are geniouses!

It also would probably be good to have to versions of each file, one 1 meg super crappy version and the one there is now. There are not a lot of modem users that are effected but then it is very unpleasant and bumpy ride for those who are. To get to see those videos this summer when I was at sea, I would pay upwards of 100$ in gprs and it'd take days, of good weather ...

The edges and catmull clark videos had me laugh my wicked evil laughter though! :applause: Don't misunderstand this post, I am just trying to put in words my honest reaction. I think a simple trick like calling the null and colour video "starters" and the other ones "main dishes", It'd probably have been a little bit different reaction from people.

alvin-cgi
12-17-2005, 07:43 PM
nice but not wow...:rolleyes:

Phyrea
12-17-2005, 07:45 PM
I'm quite pleased to see these videos! The splash screen and consistency is a great touch. Often it's these small improvements that get me the most excited, because they are things that I'll be using all day every day. Of course I'm looking forward to even more goodness that should come with additional videos this up-and-coming week.

funfun
12-17-2005, 08:03 PM
I think I would have been far more impressed by this if I only had gotten the edges and the catmull videos, and maybe but not necessarily have those a little more elaborate. Just the simple stuff like UI colours It'll be big and noticeable improvement, I am finicky and so that is really appreciated. But it is like, not exactly a show of strength from the programmers ... Those and some other UI features would make one good single video feature though....

Agree. Some ppl in another forum laughing at those so-called improvement (null, UI ) . It is not good, but it is true. NT please show us major improvement frist. I know those functions are good and handy, but I am sure ppl pay the money is not for that kind of improvment.

m.d.
12-17-2005, 08:14 PM
I haven't ordered the 9 upgrade yet, and these videos havn't changed my mind..no offence...i think a lot of these features are great, just not enough to pull money out of my wallet.

I am thinking of making the jump to another app that I know quite well....that has had alot of these features and more for quite some time....well except for the BUILD NULL.

I know there's better stuff on the way though, so I will watch carefully in the future.
:thumbsup:

KillMe
12-17-2005, 09:24 PM
yeha looking forward to seeing the node based shading - edge weighting - stuff liek that

pooby
12-17-2005, 10:53 PM
It does seem strange that it's SO directed at current LW users..

I can't imagine,say XSI or Maya releasing a video of a very slightly improved way of making a custom null object.

yes WE can appreciate its use... but..... compared to other major advances in the world of CG... it's slightly embarrassing

Phyrea
12-17-2005, 11:03 PM
It does seem strange that it's SO directed at current LW users..

I can't imagine,say XSI or Maya releasing a video of a very slightly improved way of making a custom null object.

yes WE can appreciate its use... but..... compared to other major advances in the world of CG... it's slightly embarrassing
Heh, I remember Adobe making a big deal and releasing a video about Photoshop getting multiple Undo's. The rest of the photo-editing application world had seen multiple undo's for years, yet Adobe thought it was cool to show it off in a video. I think a significant part of feature demos are for existing users. I agree that many of the demos should entice new users, but these are just the first few NewTek has released.

pooby
12-17-2005, 11:22 PM
Yes.. it it were MY company.. I don't think I would have done it in that order..

Hey ho.. it can only get better I guess

Panikos
12-17-2005, 11:24 PM
I'd prefer to see a video of a major improvements.
Promoting Nulls through videos indicates misery, and individual threads indicate expectation of feedback. In the old times, features of such magnitute werent even mentioned.
I'd like to see more attractive stuff, even though I 've already preupgraded to LW9, with hopes and faith that it worths.

cresshead
12-18-2005, 01:07 AM
i think newtek will add some WOW stuff to put along side the 'wow' of the cctv shader...that shader is uber cool...but wouln't get used everyday.....


my hopes are for
1.render improvements [via the newly hired chaps from electric image]
2.modeling with history in layout......including text
3.instancing in layout
4.shift drag to copy objects and then have them spaced out to the distyance of the first object...and a ask doalogue that pops up to request how many copies........[just like max please!]
5.better/improved non linear edit of animations.
6.re design of the U.I to much more like the new u.i that we saw before 8 shipped from some users and phtotshop'd versions.......
7.loading of mocaps onto rigs without huge hoops to jump thru in getting them to work.

Freak!!
12-18-2005, 01:27 AM
Ngons and the Catmull Clarke implementation is a big thing, (Edges too!!) and a needed one!
That again still makes Modeler one of the best Modelers period..
CCTV is cool, but an already released plugin, and a small addtion to whats needed in LW.

Adaptive SubD's, Nodal and Some Modeler stuff in Layout, some of the other TLU plugins will all be cooler and will help, but (WaterPool etc) I agree the Videos are hardly showstoppers!!

But was everyone expecting?, the more i read the prelim feature list....
The less i think i could really be impressed about.... (No offence!)

It's not a bad upgrade but i think everyone is really waitiing for CORE and SDK enhancements.

Will FPrime share shaders in LW9? Will it support Hypervoxels or volumetrics in the preview window....... Considering how FPrime saved LW8.x I think this would be my first video
especially for attracting new users....

How about a Video showing Nodal, to displace some Ngons in Layout with adaptive SubDs.
showing shaders showing up in Fprime 2.5.
Or are we expecting too much from the little guys of 3D these days....

To be honest, Maya7 was a little thin on the ground for new features too.....
But Modo 201 and XSI5 were both fantastic and worthwhile upgrades....

I' agree with Pooby's thoughts!

TYROT
12-18-2005, 08:42 AM
dear LWers

what did we see so far?
NGONS, EDGES minor but useful UI changes and a shader.

If you ask me i've seen what i have been crying for modeler. NGONS and EDGES. They promised and here they are...Two very important improvements which can really attract others and two UI changes for giving taste of new UI for current users and one good implement of CCTV shader(insanely useful when you in rush).

Of course for some cynical minds Newtek shouldnt show any minor improvements...WHY? Because it shows misery ?!!.. Good Lord give me a break. The doubts of humanity could reach that far. The ORDER of uploaded videos can SHOW the MISERY of a company??!!.

They say more to come. MORE to come. That means for cynics there will be more to talk about. It will be really fun to RE-READ the comments.

Best

pooby
12-18-2005, 08:59 AM
ngons SOUND better than their actually day to day use justifies.. Most professional modellers will continue as they are I would guess. Noone I have worked with has ever complained at the lack of Ngon support.

Edges are pretty useful, but their real strength lies in their weighting, which we are still yet to see.

Noone is saying that the final word is that LW9 is rubbish, we're commenting on things as we see them.. We're ALL wishing its going to be great. ( I would imagine )

Panikos
12-18-2005, 09:02 AM
Everybody evaluate things according to different criteria and priorities.
The features you mentioned are great. I am expecting more of similar importance.
Generally, I wish to see changes in the rendering engine. Gimme for instance fast accurate caustics, I'd say "WOW, thats fantastic"
The Renderer had been identical since LW6.0 with very minor changes.
See the progress of the competitors.
A client comes and asks for this, I cant do it ! A Client doesnt need edges, n-gons, I can survive without them.

Dont show me Null-plugins that even 3rd party developers do for free.

toonafish
12-18-2005, 12:05 PM
hahaha, it must be hell beeing a developer at Newtek.

A big chunk of the LW users have been requesting edges and N-gons for ages. Now we finaly get them and suddenly the rest can live without them and think they are not that usefull after all.

Pooby, Ngons might not be what you want in the final object regarding characters, but while in progress they are bliss. My modeling speed increased quite a bit since I switched to modo and I can use them. It's way easyer to think in edgeloops when you actualy have edges and can manipulate and see them. And even in characters you can get away with 5-gons without any trouble most of the time with catmull subd's

Panikos
12-18-2005, 01:00 PM
Edges and N-Gons are great. Upgrades need to take care of more aspects, if not all.
Single sided improvements, workflow improvements were dominating after LW7.*.

TYROT
12-18-2005, 01:09 PM
Dear Panikos

i am having difficulties to understand your points.

No Client Needs NGON or EDGES :) That s why they are THE CLIENTS and you are the modeler-animator. As a modeler just EDGES and NGONS are ultimately useful stuff for getting LW9. I cant explain any more if someone doesnt CARE about EDGE or NGON support while he or she models something.... I mean you CANT explain something so OBVIOUS.

Renderer.. Although we didnt see anything yet but please lets be rational. What competitors are doing? Please confirm how MAX did improve its renderer? Or did Maya cut the rendering speed by half..? Let s do not confuse their 3rd party renderer support with their own core rendering specification.

I believe you must be happy because you are a lightwave user. Why? simple answer : the insanely powerful Electic Image's Renderer coders are working for Lightwave. Only in Lightwave you may expect a serious amount of rendering speed increase in its core which i believe we will see next...

And probably we have read more than thousand times why and why things were not cool for lightwave between Version 6-8. New Lightwave is starting with this version.

BEST

Panikos
12-18-2005, 01:17 PM
Tyrot, LW is my principle app, thats a fact.
The desire for progress means love to the product.
But I need to have something attractive to show-off to my clients, and the result is the output of the software not how fast I can model.

Entire films were made just for the sake of effects, see bullet-time, SSS etc (Unfortunately)
Its ridiculous not to have a native SSS solution for LW, for instance.
Happily, the rendering speed is improved, (no video yet for this).

As I wrote before, I preordered LW9. I give my financial support, I do have some expectations, of course not all of them at once, but at least some.

Instead of seeing videos with innovative, revolutionary new tools that never seen before anywhere, we see minor workflow improvements.

Sha_Man
12-18-2005, 01:44 PM
April fool in december? Because this is what it have to be : a joke. That or LightWave developer are living in a world of their own...

Personaly I was waiting for some surprise, something really new and that other 3D package doesn't have, like when we got Hypervoxels, Subpatch, etc in old LW time. Having real edges and new subdivisions modes is cool but this is the very minimum. The other "features" demonstrated here are really pathetic... (sorry no other word comes to mind).

TYROT
12-18-2005, 02:04 PM
dear Sha_Man

Good luck in future. Write sometimes from where you are going. I think you will :)
Because it happens...
when you switch from Lightwave to x application you still turn back to Lightwave forums and write about it. WHY?

I dont know! you dont know! nobody knows! But THIS KEEPS HAPPENING (*)


BEST


(*) Jim Rohn

Carm3D
12-18-2005, 02:06 PM
April fool in december? Because this is what it have to be : a joke. That or LightWave developer are living in a world of their own...

Personaly I was waiting for some surprise, something really new

Lightwave is playing catch-up right now. If you're looking for innovation, you might need to wait for version 10. Once I see edge-weights in action, I'll be pleased with my $400 investment. Those and the ngon support were things I've been waiting for for some time now. The faster rendering (as it has been hyped) will be a welcome bonus. But I'm just relieved that my 3D program will be that much less antiquated when 9 is released.

toonafish
12-18-2005, 02:43 PM
Instead of seeing videos with innovative, revolutionary new tools that never seen before anywhere, we see minor workflow improvements.

Lol, we don't even have a decent undo in Layout nor can we select or numericly translate multiple camera's, lights and objects simultaniously or select a surface by simply clicking in the screen. So it's a bit much to ask for revolunionary new tools if this basic stuff is not taken care off.

I'd rather have Newtek concentrate on better integration of the tools and functions we already have and make them communicate with eachother.
There's so much stuff in Layout for instance that could be very powerfull if it were implemented better.

curious_69_george
12-18-2005, 03:08 PM
Would that be the UK version that was used? I noticed the spelling in CCTV movie of 'colour' as compared to the US spelling of 'color'.

We spell it that way in Canada as well. And we get the same version america does. Which I think is the same version everyone else gets.

thomasvandenabeele
12-18-2005, 03:34 PM
After perusing the spinquad forum on the same topic it is still VERY unclear wether there will be true edge weighting in LW9. It is mentioned, but a question by Pooby is answered with a vague referral to point weighting, and some throwing about of terminology.

Come'on NewTek: everybody that has any idea of 3D these days instinctively knows what is meant by point weighting vs. edge weighting. So:

Does LW9 have edge weighting??? REAL edge weighting, the way everybody would want it to behave, expects it to behave and knows it from other apps.

Zarathustra
12-18-2005, 03:40 PM
But I'm just relieved that my 3D program will be that much less antiquated when 9 is released.

That's probably the best worded response to LW9 that I've seen yet. So much summed up in one sentence. Kudos. :thumbsup:

The custom null object... man.

Tyrot: I certainly hope there's more to come. I just find it odd that considering the massive mess of 8 that they have to claw out of that they chose to show these seemingly trifle things first.

General question - if 9 will have edges and edge weighting, will that mean LW will finally see weightmaps in LWOs created in Modo? It's a real pain having to load Modeler just to apply weightmaps.

As I wrote before, I preordered LW9. I give my financial support, I do have some expectations, of course not all of them at once, but at least some.

Same here. I rely on the product to do my work that pays my bills like keeping a roof over my head, food in my belly, etc and have done so for about 9 years or so now. I have every right to ask for the program to function properly, at least have what other apps have and show evidence of future commitment and innovation instead of lip service and coloring polygons.
Hope is great and all, but you can't live off it.

Emmanuel
12-18-2005, 03:53 PM
After perusing the spinquad forum on the same topic it is still VERY unclear wether there will be true edge weighting in LW9. It is mentioned, but a question by Pooby is answered with a vague referral to point weighting, and some throwing about of terminology.

Come'on NewTek: everybody that has any idea of 3D these days instinctively knows what is meant by point weighting vs. edge weighting. So:

Does LW9 have edge weighting??? REAL edge weighting, the way everybody would want it to behave, expects it to behave and knows it from other apps.

I quote:
"In addition to making the subdivision surface engine faster and more efficient, the capabilities of the engine have been expanded to include the ability to use edges in the construction process, add weighting to edges which allows for sharp corners and creases with no additional geometry needed, and the ability to use polygons with greater than four sides in the process."

I mean, whats vague about this !? And whats "fake" edge weighting vs "real" edge weighting ?
Edges in 9 will be weighted the same wa as vertices, either via a custom map or directly by entering a value or doing it with the mouse in the viewport.
How can that be so hard to understand ?

Emmanuel
12-18-2005, 03:56 PM
I believe you must be happy because you are a lightwave user. Why? simple answer : the insanely powerful Electic Image's Renderer coders are working for Lightwave. Only in Lightwave you may expect a serious amount of rendering speed increase in its core which i believe we will see next...

BEST

Erm, excuse me, but I never heard something about EI *programmers* working on the LW rendering engine.
Only that Jay Roth, who co-founded EI, was now with NT, I guess he's rather the replacement for Brad "Let's dare Maya" Peebler, so more some kind of manager/PR guy...
I don't doubt that he has the experience, but I don't know if he ever was a programmer...

plotz
12-18-2005, 04:15 PM
Jay Roth brought Mark Granger onto the team. He's the brain behind EI's rendering technology. I'm really hopping in additon to speed improvements he will bring improvements to the anti-aliasing. (EI's anti-aliasing is very nice.)

I'm quite happy with the videos I've seen. One of the things that they've talked about in 9 was optimizing workflow. The Null video is proof that they're really doing it.

In 8.5 to create a custom null shape you have to:

1. Add Null
2. Open properties window
3. Add Custom Object>Item Shape
4. Double click on "Item Shape" to edit the null properties

In 9:

1. Add Null and adjust Item shape properties.

I think that's a very serious workflow enhancement and it's those "little" things that are really going to make my life easier. What can I say...I use a lot of nuls:)

Auger
12-18-2005, 04:20 PM
Erm, excuse me, but I never heard something about EI *programmers* working on the LW rendering engine.
Only that Jay Roth, who co-founded EI, was now with NT, I guess he's rather the replacement for Brad "Let's dare Maya" Peebler, so more some kind of manager/PR guy...
I don't doubt that he has the experience, but I don't know if he ever was a programmer...

Hi Emmanuel,

Jay Roth came to Newtek with a lead programmer from EI named Mark Granger.

See the original press release here: http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/03-09-05b.html

Jon

Sha_Man
12-18-2005, 04:33 PM
dear Sha_Man

Good luck in future. Write sometimes from where you are going. I think you will :)
Because it happens...
when you switch from Lightwave to x application you still turn back to Lightwave forums and write about it. WHY?

I dont know! you dont know! nobody knows! But THIS KEEPS HAPPENING (*)


BEST


(*) Jim Rohn

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Sha_Man
12-18-2005, 04:37 PM
I mean, whats vague about this !? And whats "fake" edge weighting vs "real" edge weighting ?
Edges in 9 will be weighted the same wa as vertices, either via a custom map or directly by entering a value or doing it with the mouse in the viewport.
How can that be so hard to understand ?

Fake edge weighting is something that only exists in LightWave.
They should have annonced it as a "feature"... :D

TYROT
12-18-2005, 04:38 PM
dear sha_man

you will :) eventually:)

best

Emmanuel
12-18-2005, 04:59 PM
Hi Emmanuel,

Jay Roth came to Newtek with a lead programmer from EI named Mark Granger.

See the original press release here: http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/03-09-05b.html

Jon

Hi,

thanks for correcting me, so its true, they got at least one programmer from EI :)
See, to EI happened the same that happened to NT :)
Hastings/Ferguson--->Lux
Roth/Granger---->NewTek :)

The world is a village :)
Now, if Chuck---->discreet
and
Keira Knightley--->NewTek, that would be an awesome upgrade :D

(duck and run...)

Zarathustra
12-18-2005, 05:13 PM
Sha_Man: He's talking about the "phenomenon" of people posting in LW forums and showing off how amazing their new 3D app is, how it can do this or that faster/better or simply showing off what it can do that LW can't. It happens a lot with long time LW users who add a new 3D app to their toolbox.

The silliness is the assumption that you can only use this OR that app instead of the reality that you can use any app you'd like which you can afford to purchase and master.
It's nonsense the whole notion of "coming back". You don't necessarily leave LW if you buy C4D. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages and a smart guy surrounds himself with as many advantages as he can.

I will say that I think if you've been frustrated for a long time by a LW disadvantage and use a different app and that disadvantage isn't there, then you can't help but be excited and want to tell someone. This community has a long history of sharing info and new techniques and generally being helpful, and if you've been here for awhile, you can't help doing that even if the new info is found in another app.

RPG2006
12-18-2005, 05:18 PM
I agree with comments here about the vids being a little bit sad in comparison. We're last in the race, and it's a little hard to start patting on the back. Well done. That said we are getting what we've been asking for, and personally I see it as a solid foundation rather than just addons. We've all been p*ssed off with fluff in the past, and the subpatch modes and edges, don't appear to be that. CCTV is a bit eagle in the barrel for me though.

My main thought from watching the videos on catmull, is performance. The object in the video is a pretty simple object. I know you have to take into account capture and compression, but did it seem to have a bit of lag? I would like to know how well catmull-clark works with mainstream video cards like the geforce fx. It needs to be atleast as good as the competion out there.

Another thought is with regards compatibility. I don't use packages like modo myself, but I think it would be a real selling point, if Lightwave was able to import models seamlessley, weightmaps, ngons and all. Other apps have embrassed Lightwave's format (cinema and modo), and I think it would be a good idea if we do the same.

RPG

ps. Someone else raised this question, and I think it is significant. How well does catmull(lightwave style), handle pinching? I would like to see an example of this. I think the classic example was used in a LW thread some time ago, with a pyramid shape and a hole cut out of it.

pps. Who chooses that status title. Visitor, frequenter, geek etc.

Tactical Trance
12-18-2005, 05:31 PM
I'd like to see better UV mapping tools, modeler/scene combined by a tab or something, and i guess... a new theme.

brtk
12-18-2005, 05:42 PM
And whats "fake" edge weighting vs "real" edge weighting ?
That, Sir, I'd call fake:
In subdivisions, you can weight the edges to be hard or medium and apply multiple medium edge weights. But there is no slider functionality or anything. I'm also not sure if MR for maya supports edge weighted subds.
And Maya has it!
Another question is how good edges/weighting/n-gons are implemented/integrated? Are we going to have edge selection sets, be able to select by weight, are there any new edge specific tolls? Will the old tools work on egdes, f.ex will we have one bevel tool that works on points, edges and polys instead of having three different tools. The videos don't touch on these points, what these videos do explain thoroughly is: quads are polygons consisting of four points, n-gons are polygons consisting of more tahan four points and that you can not subpatch n-gons. Now requesting demo about those tris I've hearing lately!

Maxx
12-18-2005, 06:46 PM
My question in regard to the "true" edge weighting is this - currently, using the point weighting functionality, if you have a subpatched rectangle (looks like a tube due to the subpatching) and you would like to create a sharp-edge bulge in the tube, you have to bandsaw an additional isoparm around the top and bottom iso for the bulge. If you use point weighting, the tube pulls itself out to the cage's square shape. As I understand it, edge wieghting will allow the user to simply weigh the edges and the crease will then be sharp, but still round. Does that make sense? At any rate, it works in my head and I will admit to a bit of apprehension about Proton's comment that edge weights will work like the current point weighting implementation. Whether my apprehension is due to a misunderstading on my part or a simple miscommunication, it's there. So basically, Proton - it'd be great to see a video demonstration of the new edge weighting functionality :D.

**edit** Just realized - I don't want to sound down on NT for the catmull-clark and edges integration - looks awesome and I can't wait to use them! I just wouldn't mind a bit more clarification on the weighting functionality. And another video, 'cause we all know that Proton doesn't have anything better to do but sit and pander to our requests for videos. ;)

Emmanuel
12-18-2005, 07:10 PM
Ah, I see.
Well, I *think* that NT has chosen not to "hack" edge weighting into our standard LW-subpatches, but the very reason to implement "industrial standard" catmull-clarke-SDS-algorithm was to allow for "industrial standard" sds-ngons and sds-edges.
Like "this time we make it right from the start".
So, a model done in LW's CC-SDS should be identical to one made in XSI, Maya, Max, including the edge weighting.

PixelNations
12-18-2005, 07:32 PM
Everybody chill.

I am very confident LW will have proper and true edge weights. The press releases for LW9 indicate it. Heard it from a friend that heard it from a friend, so take this for what its worth: The edge weights are probably not ready for prime time since it requires a whole new data class that just is plain difficult to squeeze into LW in it's current form. You just can't, by my guess, adapt vertex level mapping functions to weight edges properly so they are probably having to kludge it into LW in it's current form.

Now, my crystal ball tells me:

LW9 is a midpoint stop for the programmers. The real gem is LW10 which is a complete re-write and is being tandem developed while LW9 is as well. 9 will have some of the amazing new functionality we're all hungry for but they probably just can't make it all fit into the legacy code and haphazardly designed LW6 core. Reading the forums and following the gossip of the past year, one can pretty safely assume that NT was *probably* screwed over big time by Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson. I don't know this for a fact, just simple 1+1=.77412311. The core was a mess and extremely poor in it's documentation, if any. My guess is that NT has been at the ceiling of what can be done to the existing program for some time which is why most of the major functionality improvements we've seen have been in the form of incremental plugins. Powerful and functional ones indeed, but squeezed into a shoe that dosent properly fit it anymore. To remedy this, and this is merely conjecture, NT has been on a parallel development path for some time. Not wanting to fall into the Softimage trap: Remember back in the Soft 3.51 days, XSI was being developed and there was essentially a stand still of Softimage products for some 3-4 years? That cost Softimage it's first place status and industry foothold to be decimated. By the time XSI came out, Maya had been on the market for a few years and absolutely clobbered XSI in terms of market share and status. Now, XSI is, IMO an absolute kick a$$ application and better than Maya in most regards, but it STILL hasn't recovered from the disasterous migration of users and status while it was being developed. Newtek must, and probably is, be well aware of this historical note and therefore is actively pursuing a dual development path. 9 is the appetizer to hold on to it's still strong market while 10 is the real deal that is being prepared in the kitchen as we speak. Again, all conjecture but I think it's very grounded in the reality of what is happening here.

9 will have some killer features, probably enough to keep much of it's user base on board for a year or so more, but it is certainly held back by it's architecture and the new blood at NewTek is well aware of. I don't put my faith in software or companies, but i am confident that by holding on for a little longer, expand your toolset by all means, it will get it's killer app status back even if the other apps will always have their name recognition.

Expect the same problems with Maya and Max, which will probably be merged sometime in the next few years as a new and even more powerful application.

LW is still one of the fastest and most powerful apps with a mature user base, expansive plugin library, and most importantly proven in production and fairly easy coexistence with other applications. Yeah its long in the tooth and the grass is starting to look greener on the other side. If you are busy spending all your time admiring or envying the neighbor's landscaping, you're not working hard enough to make your own work for you.

Skills, not software. Period.

Julez4001
12-18-2005, 07:34 PM
LW is not in the BIG 3, not for a long time and we atre definitely int he 4th slot only if by our user base (some films and lot of broadcast). With Autodesk buying (maybe merging) max and Maya then we would have accidently beeen thrown into No.3 spot but thats 2 years coming.


However Maya can't really laught about our new tools when
object replacing, non-detructiive editing on base blendshape (endomorph) were two of their main features in 7.0

3DSMAX/XSI can definitely laugh.
They gotten better/faster highend tools, a native SSS shader, etc


meanwhile Modo and Cinema4D may all be pursuing for that No.3 slot in 2007.

Maxx
12-18-2005, 07:59 PM
Ah, I see.
Well, I *think* that NT has chosen not to "hack" edge weighting into our standard LW-subpatches, but the very reason to implement "industrial standard" catmull-clarke-SDS-algorithm was to allow for "industrial standard" sds-ngons and sds-edges.
Like "this time we make it right from the start".
So, a model done in LW's CC-SDS should be identical to one made in XSI, Maya, Max, including the edge weighting.

That's exactly what I'm hoping and thinking, but I'm anxiously waiting for confirmation through either video previews or user reviews.

Sha_Man
12-18-2005, 08:44 PM
Sha_Man: He's talking about the "phenomenon" of people posting in LW forums and showing off how amazing their new 3D app is, how it can do this or that faster/better or simply showing off what it can do that LW can't. It happens a lot with long time LW users who add a new 3D app to their toolbox.

The silliness is the assumption that you can only use this OR that app instead of the reality that you can use any app you'd like which you can afford to purchase and master.
It's nonsense the whole notion of "coming back". You don't necessarily leave LW if you buy C4D. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages and a smart guy surrounds himself with as many advantages as he can.

I will say that I think if you've been frustrated for a long time by a LW disadvantage and use a different app and that disadvantage isn't there, then you can't help but be excited and want to tell someone. This community has a long history of sharing info and new techniques and generally being helpful, and if you've been here for awhile, you can't help doing that even if the new info is found in another app.

Ah it make (some) sense now! :)

I think you are totally right. I use LightWave since a long time now (started with v4.x on the Amiga system) so I believe my relationship with this application is different than with any other one on the market.

I still use LW for most of my rendering and setup (this include animation) needs tho I switched almost totally to Modo for the modelling part. But no matter how much I like it (LW) it's not possible to stay blind to what's going on with other systems. Some years ago I really thought LW had the potential to be a major actor in the 3D CG market but now all we can hope at best, is it will not be left too much behind (wich is actually the case) of other applications like 3DS Max, Maya, Messiah, XSI...

To get back on the topic I think I'd prefered no new at all than those videos, because they just make LW looks ridiculous compared to what's going on on the 3D-CG scene (but maybe it is).


meanwhile Modo and Cinema4D may all be pursuing for that No.3 slot in 2007.


Well C4D is definitly one step beyong LW since a long time now. Modo is really good too, but at the moment it's only a modeler. Anyway if you compare LW's modeler to Modo there is no picture. Modo is a new generation software and you can feel it!

adboy
12-18-2005, 08:52 PM
i love lightwave but these changes arent blowing my skirt up

as usual the modeler updates far outshine the layout, all the additions in modeler will really help things and seem to be genuine new features

cctv, clever but not sure how often that will get used
the null thing is just a mix of laready present tools and yes it is much quicker than doing it step by step, but i use lightwave every day and i think i've actually used those functions to that degree about 10 times, not enough for me to find it handy

if they are adding things like being able to sort the images in anyway at all so scenes can be optimsed

snapping in layout, i'd like to be able to grab a group of object and move them exactly 10m over......(oh such a long list)

tools rather than toys is all i'm after
but as people have said we havent seen all the updates yet and alot of this stuff may be in there

gonna wait and see, but till then i wont be parting with any more cash, i've been handing out since lightwave 5 pretty much on faith alone, i do think the new team are defiantely moving in the right direction tho

Zarathustra
12-18-2005, 08:56 PM
Sha_Man: I had my first LW exposure through 2 guys who started about when you did. I came on with v5. My thinking is right in line with yours. I think they should either show some WOW or don't show anything at all, unless you look at it like Carm said earlier.

I'm not a techie guy. Hell, I was watching that video and wondering, "who's Capt. Clark and what's he got to do with anything?" :p I don't know what the differences in edge weighting are. I just want to know if LW9 will see weightmaps made in Modo, but I don't expect to see that in a NT video. I'll just have to wait until I have 9 or maybe one of you beta testers could see and send me a secret message. Wink wink, nudge nudge. I don't divulge sources.

PetterSundnes
12-18-2005, 09:10 PM
The new catmull clark sub d does not have "iso-lines" when enabled, atleast so it seems in the video. That has always been one of the greatest features of metanurbs, being able to edit directly onto the sub d lines, instead of the original cage of the model.

Edit: but I am still happy to see improvements and additions ofcourse :)

trygve
12-18-2005, 09:21 PM
The new catmull clark sub d does not have "iso-lines" when enabled, atleast so it seems in the video. That has always been one of the greatest features of metanurbs, being able to edit directly onto the sub d lines, instead of the original cage of the model.

Edit: but I am still happy to see improvements and additions ofcourse :)

This is from SpinQuad:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ercaxus
And are we going to be able to select the points/polys/edges on the Catmull-Clark subd object without seeing the wire cage? I love the way the subpatches work: no seperate control cage.

Proton answered: "Yes....I can do that now"

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9965&page=2&pp=15

PetterSundnes
12-18-2005, 09:26 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon13.gif then my day is saved
(http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon13.gif)

ColinCohen
12-18-2005, 10:14 PM
This is from SpinQuad:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ercaxus
And are we going to be able to select the points/polys/edges on the Catmull-Clark subd object without seeing the wire cage? I love the way the subpatches work: no seperate control cage.

Proton answered: "Yes....I can do that now"

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9965&page=2&pp=15

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but in the the SubD video it looked like a cage appeared when he switched to CC.

webhead
12-18-2005, 10:32 PM
I like the CCTV feature's possibilities. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this point yet, but I wonder whether or not the CCTV feature could possibly be used as a way to get around the fact that Sasquatch doesn't render in reflections.
I wonder if the CCTV cameras could be used to fake a reflection on a surface and get the sasquatch filter renderd as well as any other texture information. Am I anywhere in the ballpark with this train of thought? :shrug:

Panikos
12-18-2005, 10:38 PM
Sasquatch is a compositor that considers LW world, nothing more/less.
Sasquatch results are invisible by LW, only shadows via a shader.
Reflections/Refractions Sasquatch needs to be traced as volumetric, not available for now.


But since you raised the topic, I wonder if the CCTV cameras can include LensFlares or they accept ImageFilter-type processing. (I doubt it, some generic processing is included in the shader) But that would be cool if you can make the cameras B&W or with different Brightness/Constrast setting.

evenflcw
12-18-2005, 10:46 PM
ColinCohen said:
"Perhaps I'm mistaken, but in the the SubD video it looked like a cage appeared when he switched to CC."

Indeed, the CC demonstration looked questionable and Protons answer seemed evasive. I wish I wasn't, but I AM worried. Fortunatly there are other things, mainly in Layout, that can make me satisfied and kurvstudios has a good LW9 upgrade deal going on. I just hope I get to see some very impressive demos and hear news of some much needed relevant core changes before the deal ends.

Thanks for those cool plugins (IKKey, FKGoal), Colin!

EDIT:
About CCTV. I think it's very cool, but it seems it does not take imageprocessing in consideration. Proton already tested it with sasquatch and no hair showed in the CCTV surfaces. So LW apparently raytraces everything first, inlcuding what is applied to the CCTV surfaces, then applies filters. Atleast that's how my layman-brain think about it. Hopefully this will chang in the future. I was impressed in how CCTV surfaces were able to see each other though. How the h*ll is that done!? Boggles my mind.

KillMe
12-18-2005, 10:48 PM
call me suspicious but the lw subpatches were shown without the cage right - but the cc sds had there cage

then in the ui video you see the display options panel and it has only one options for turning on and off the cages not one for lw sub patches and one for cc sds

so are we albsolutly certain we can see the isolines etc on the cc sds?

sinbad
12-18-2005, 11:34 PM
I'm not a techie guy. Hell, I was watching that video and wondering, "who's Capt. Clark and what's he got to do with anything?" :p I don't know what the differences in edge weighting are. I just want to know if LW9 will see weightmaps made in Modo, but I don't expect to see that in a NT video. I'll just have to wait until I have 9 or maybe one of you beta testers could see and send me a secret message. Wink wink, nudge nudge. I don't divulge sources.

Haha Captain Clarke! Thats funny, Ed Catmull is the President of Pixar Animation Studios, and father of CGI (Clarke was involved somehow in the old days, but I cant rember his first name) Ed Catmull almost singlehandedly invented 2d Paint systems AND what we call CGI (getting a computer to shade the space between a set of points), initially at Utah university in the early 70's, and thereafter at New York tech. His college project was create and animate a cg hand opening and closing using an ancient computer with less power than an electric toothbrush. Not bad for a student! He invented RGB & alpha buffers PLUS the Z buffer , all whilst eating peanutbutter sarnies and growing a rather impressive beard. Ok I made that bit up, I have no idea if he likes peanut butter. Along with one of his hairy friends Alvy Ray Smith (who became the formost effects guy of his age), Ed Catmull met up with george Lucas to work on Starwars and with Alvy Ray, went on to work on many projects and the rest is history.

By the way there should be a cage around the CC solution, we are just used to not having the cage visible around traditional sub-patches.

Panikos
12-18-2005, 11:56 PM
I was impressed in how CCTV surfaces were able to see each other though. How the h*ll is that done!? Boggles my mind.

Ray Recursion like Reflective surfaces that see each other.

As far as Sasquatch, it renders on the selected camera only so dont expect to see it in CCTV.

webhead
12-19-2005, 12:04 AM
As far as Sasquatch, it renders on the selected camera only so dont expect to see it in CCTV.

That's what I was afraid of. Oh, well.

ColinCohen
12-19-2005, 12:40 AM
Haha Captain Clarke! Thats funny, Ed Catmull is the President of Pixar Animation Studios, and father of CGI (Clarke was involved somehow in the old days, but I cant rember his first name) Ed Catmull almost singlehandedly invented 2d Paint systems AND what we call CGI (getting a computer to shade the space between a set of points), initially at Utah university in the early 70's, and thereafter at New York tech. His college project was create and animate a cg hand opening and closing using an ancient computer with less power than an electric toothbrush. Not bad for a student! He invented RGB & alpha buffers PLUS the Z buffer , all whilst eating peanutbutter sarnies and growing a rather impressive beard. Ok I made that bit up, I have no idea if he likes peanut butter. Along with one of his hairy friends Alvy Ray Smith (who became the formost effects guy of his age), Ed Catmull met up with george Lucas to work on Starwars and with Alvy Ray, went on to work on many projects and the rest is history.

By the way there should be a cage around the CC solution, we are just used to not having the cage visible around traditional sub-patches.

I believe he's also responsible for the Catmull-Rom spline.

Emmanuel
12-19-2005, 01:58 PM
Note:For those who miss this or that in the vids, Proton just took 1-2 minutes to show the basic new features/tools.Maybe he forgot to turn off the wireframe cage on CC-SDS because he didn't think anybody would be confused by the cage ?
He confirmed that he can also directly operate on the points, edges, and polygons.
Maybe he will do some more "in depth" vids, but see, he did that probably in his sparetime, not professionally, so have mercy...

evenflcw
12-19-2005, 04:20 PM
Emmanuel said:
"Maybe he forgot to turn off the wireframe cage on CC-SDS because he didn't think anybody would be confused by the cage ?"

It was a nice gesture of NT and Proton to spend some time making those LW9 demovids. But they must understand that users expect the cc-sds to be as well implemented as subpatches are. Showing us something that contradicts this expectation is bound to lead to dissappointments, no matter what the case. If the case is that cc-sds ARE as well implemented as subpatches NT and Proton were careless not to set up LW to show that they do infact work analogous and equally good. In that case NT and Proton only have themself to blame for peoples suspicions.

I'm a nice guy, I assume NT and Proton are smart enough to understand what users expect and want to see. As such I won't assume NT and Proton were careless, instead I conclude that cc-sds are not as well implemented as subpatches. But who knows, the difference in implementation could mean cc-sds are better implemented than subpatches!

Btw, that cc-sds cage did not look like the standard cage.

Zarathustra
12-19-2005, 10:24 PM
he did that probably in his sparetime, not professionally, so have mercy...

It would be nice to see some certifed, professional videos released from NT then.
The ftp link was from NT, so it's a fair assumption they were made with NT knowledge and consent, right?

sinbad
12-19-2005, 10:41 PM
Which is why Newtek needs an organised marketing/PR department with a cohesive strategy in order to compete with the other software developers whose products are so similar. All to often the marketing feels a little rough around the edges and slapped together last minute. I'm not dissing Proton's passion and professionalism, but these tasters should have been planned months in advance by Newtek, and should have been delivered in a slick and timely manner, as early as possible, kind of like a movie trailer. They need to sharpen up their image on this front and be more professional in order to have appeal beyond their loyal userbase. The new website for LW is nice but seems a little cheesy. They should go for an understated and contemporary feel, and push LW as a desirable and classy product, which of course, it is :)

pooby
12-19-2005, 11:00 PM
I totally agree..

Proton comes across as a very pleasant and enthusiastic individual, but, to me, (and I do not wish to cause offence) it seems like Proton is test-driving LW9.. representing the average user in a way

I wish there was more of an official - from the programmers - demo of exactly what and why these features are here and how they fit into LW's future strategy..

much like XSI do when they release demo vids.. their demos speak with more 'authority'

Weetos
12-20-2005, 12:25 AM
What they did just before 8 release was pretty good (a whole bunch of videos demonstrating the new features), I was expecting as much for 9 and I hope they're going to show more of it

8 release has been really late (almost 9 months I think), so it was vital for NT to tease people with some demos. Now there's ten days left until the 'official' release date, and yet only four videos has been shown. Proton is really busy at DAVE School and I doubt he could spend as much time as he spent on the 8 videos, NT should think about getting demo videos done by several 'evangelists' instead of just one :wise:

Rabbitroo
12-20-2005, 01:08 AM
The world is a village :)
Now, if Chuck---->discreet
and
Keira Knightley--->NewTek, that would be an awesome upgrade :D


We can only pray for that day. :applause:
-K

Rabbitroo
12-20-2005, 01:12 AM
I totally agree..

Proton comes across as a very pleasant and enthusiastic individual, but, to me, (and I do not wish to cause offence) it seems like Proton is test-driving LW9.. representing the average user in a way

I wish there was more of an official - from the programmers - demo of exactly what and why these features are here and how they fit into LW's future strategy..

much like XSI do when they release demo vids.. their demos speak with more 'authority'

I think we can be pretty sure we're seeing what's available . . . If there was more to show, NT wouldn't be holding back, would they? I like Proton, but assuming that this is what he was "authorized" to release by NT management . . . well, draw your own conclusions.

I was hoping for some of that cmaera-dependent SPD magic they've been bragging about--that would be killer for highly detailed geometry (like Zbrush output.)

-K

KillMe
12-20-2005, 01:34 AM
think proton said there were more videos to come - hes jsut showing off bits and pieces - from workflow enhancements to new features

hopefully next batch will clear up some issues with edge weighting - node based surfacing - the spd's or what ever lightwaves version is called

would be nice to see somethign about the faster rendering too

so before we start descided that all we've been shown is the full extent of what there is i think a little patience is in order - its not like proton doesn't have other thigns to do

pelos
12-20-2005, 01:39 AM
dont forget, modo and nexus are comming out, lightwave 10 all ready here at next door

mlmiller1983
12-20-2005, 02:09 AM
In the words of Guns N' Roses, "All we need is just little patience."

mlmiller1983
12-20-2005, 02:11 AM
Now there's ten days left until the 'official' release date, and yet only four videos has been shown.


Huh???:eek:

Carm3D
12-20-2005, 02:34 AM
Six videos (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9). And if you think LW9 will really be released before year's end, I'll have some of what you're smoking.

Verlon
12-20-2005, 05:27 AM
Newtek forums are down.

Here is to hoping they are going to surprise us all and anounce that I will be getting something red with a 9 on it for Christmas :D

funfun
12-20-2005, 07:11 AM
dont forget, modo and nexus are comming out, lightwave 10 all ready here at next door

Nexus? any info? I don't think they will release nexus.
Brad did explain what Nexus is in Siggraph.

Weetos
12-20-2005, 07:38 AM
Six videos (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9). And if you think LW9 will really be released before year's end, I'll have some of what you're smoking.

oops six videos. All apologies - just smoking luckies : ) want one ?

I know LW9 isn't going to be released this year, but I was maybe in the xmas mood and a bit naive concerning the announced release date

Carm3D
12-20-2005, 07:50 AM
oops six videos. All apologies - just smoking luckies : ) want one ?

Actually, I don't smoke, but I've been thinking about starting. I want to go where the flavor is. :p

williamsburroughs
12-21-2005, 02:45 AM
Any reason Booleans aren't parametric so they can be animated over time?

evenflcw
12-21-2005, 02:54 AM
That's rude! You know why they are not.

williamsburroughs
12-21-2005, 03:44 AM
That's rude! You know why they are not.


???


huh?

evenflcw
12-21-2005, 03:52 AM
Is LW structured/node based like C4D or does LW have a stack? No it does not.

I think you're just being silly and the post is boardering on flame bate.

Rabbitroo
12-21-2005, 05:07 AM
I think you're just being silly and the post is boardering on flame bate.
Oooo . . . I was just about to take the bait too . . . rats! :argh:
-K

ThE_JacO
12-21-2005, 05:28 AM
Is LW structured/node based like C4D or does LW have a stack? No it does not.

I think you're just being silly and the post is boardering on flame bate.

huh?
animatable booleans don't require a node based structure or an exposed operators stack (neither of which is really in C4D by the way).

without needing a subatomic architecture like Houdini, but using a purely Push DAG one like most modern applications use, you can perfectly well re-generate the result of a boolean in realtime while components are moved around.

the problem is that booleans in run-once mode, like the presented ones, will read both geometries and generate a singular result, instead of generating a third mesh or cache the state before and update smoothly the boolean affected mesh while you move the other factor.

I really can't see how that question was a flamebait, unless you're ignorant, and yet overrating your knowledge, enough to think that you'd need a fully node based generation of the mesh to have animated booleans (which for the record are possible in XSI, Maya, Houdini, Max and I believe even in C4D).

Per-Anders
12-21-2005, 05:31 AM
Just to clarify Jaco, C4D's internal structure is a combination of Baselist (2 dimensional list) Nodal and Hierarchical Stack via which procedural modeling is achieved (if wanted) using a (currently primitive) dependency system, and yes of course it can animate booleans.

ThE_JacO
12-21-2005, 05:38 AM
I don't doubt C4D's internal structure is more then apt to expose nodes and wiring :)
all I was implying with my comment is that it doesn't present it as such, unlike HDN's SOPs or Maya's (much more limited) hypergraph.

the latter for the record being, to my knowledge, a very simple push/pull DAG with forceful evaluation, which isn't exactly the latest and greatest in terms of architectural design, and yet it can animate geometry generating operations.

Per-Anders
12-21-2005, 05:45 AM
Yes Maya's DAG is a basic Push/Pull system with side dependencies. It's actually in concept quite elegant, but the execution is imo weak. If you have some good info on some more recent design concepts in dependency graphs then please do share (I find the subject quite fascinating).

I'd just like to add that, to an extent I do feel that maybe it was maybe a little bit flame baitish when the answer is known, though at the same time it is still a valid question.

The method that Lightwave Modeler uses to store modeling information may need to be reworked in order for operators to remain "live", I do actually think a live animateable bolean would probably be possible within Lightwave Layout though.

KillMe
12-21-2005, 06:01 AM
you can do animated booleans in layout with a shader plugin - simply sutracts one object from the otehr at rendertime - pretty damn cool really

TrueArt Support
12-21-2005, 09:27 AM
Stuff like a scene render 2-17 times faster or a 2 minute perfect frog skin in nodal or whatnot! We know you are geniouses.

To get such speedup (in each new release? ;) ) they would have to screw up it in the first place in previous.. ;)

TrueArt Support
12-21-2005, 09:39 AM
I wonder if I can determine a render range for CCTV or if it "records" all the time ?

CCTV from my understanding is normal shader added in Surface Editor.. Every shader have access to ray-tracing routines like firing rays into scene from specified location and direction, cast shadows, determine light intensity etc. So, CCTV for examined pixel is mapping (reverse projection mapping?) this location to the camera specified in user interface and fire ray from that place.. If CCTV supports only flat plannar projection, this was even easier to program for developer..

This trick could be done with anything.. Wanna surface, polygon, bone or light that works like this for tomorrow.. ? ;)

PaZ
12-21-2005, 09:58 AM
Is LW structured/node based like C4D or does LW have a stack? No it does not.
I think you're just being silly and the post is boardering on flame bate.

Why "flame" ? Imho, he's indirectly asking why (or if) LW is being reworked in order to be an actual tool, with at least some sorf of procedurality/stack/nodes, even in the easiest implementation possible.
Rewriting a tool today, and leaving its structure as an early '90 tool's would be totally mindbending and a comic nonsense.
I'm assuming some sort of stack, nodes, nesting or whatever is being surely considered by newtek, and they'll implement it asap...
I'd be curious to know too which shape will core architecture get with future releases.
I doubt they're are able to restructure it so deeply to make it a Maya/XSI concurerent, but at least i expect to see it compete with Cinema regarding its object nesting/stacking capabilities.

Paolo Zambrini

jeremyhardin
12-21-2005, 04:02 PM
This trick could be done with anything.. Wanna surface, polygon, bone or light that works like this for tomorrow.. ? ;)

well, since you're offering, ;) , how 'bout adding a 'procedural' that does this, so that it potentially works with FPrime and so that it can be stacked/wired for more complex results?

Roger Eberhart
12-21-2005, 05:54 PM
I really can't see how that question was a flamebait, unless you're ignorant, and yet overrating your knowledge, enough to think that you'd need a fully node based generation of the mesh to have animated booleans (which for the record are possible in XSI, Maya, Houdini, Max and I believe even in C4D).

It may be possible in Max, but I haven't seen it implemented, at least in the core program. Maybe in a plug-in somewhere. You can do animated extrudes. I wasn't aware Maya had this feature either. C4D and XSI definitely have it.

evenflcw
12-22-2005, 01:41 AM
I think maybe we are reading different things into williamsburroughs question/request/whatever. If I recall correctly the initial post actually said "procedural" instead of "parametric". Whatever the case I took this as meaning "non-destructive". So williamsburroughs was not only asking for "animated booleans" he was asking for non-destructive ones aswell. Admittedly, without knowing very much about LWs inner workings or push/pull DAGs, I just couldn't see how you could get the non-destructiveness into LW (Modeler in particular) without giving it a total makeover. Which makes the rather innocent looking request seem rather silly from in my opinion*. Add to that that williamsburroughs should be well aware by know how and where feature requests can be submitted and that he had nothing else to say.

An interactive boolean tool in Modeler or animated booleans in Layout I don't doubt are possible today and do not necessarily need all those fancy things mentioned in this thread.

Thanks for calling me an ignorant, self-loving, overrating dumbass, The_Jaco. Being insulted always puts things into perspective. I'm sorry if I missunderstood the intent and meaning of the initial post and that I decided to play moderator. I'll leave it alone next time. Bait away! :D


*Any reason why they didn't make the pyramids twice as big? They should've supersized those suckers while they had the chance! What were they thinking!?

TrueArt Support
12-22-2005, 02:02 AM
well, since you're offering, ;) , how 'bout adding a 'procedural' that does this, so that it potentially works with FPrime and so that it can be stacked/wired for more complex results?

Not possible.. CCTV shader is not infiniMap that could be turned to procedural texture (it's still not a good place for infiniMap though, but currently there're no better-there should be procedural-image plug-in class).. They produce textures and not have access to ray-tracing functions (which wouldn't work in FPrime anyway because they just don't have data to operate at that time!).. Only shader, pixel-filter and volumetric can fire rays to the scene..

To makes such things possible Worley would have to create FPrime SDK and 3rd party developers start using it in their plug-ins...

You little misunderstood my previous post.. What I meant was "This trick could be done with anything.. Wanna surface, polygon, bone or light (or particle) that is "source of view" for tomorrow.. ?"..

Yeah.. With particle that could be even funny.. Take location, direction and size of particular one and treat as camera, without having to create additional camera and key-frames in that place.. If something, dynamic or object, changed particle parameters, it's no problem for such CCTV shader (or pixel-filter like Vodka aka "LW new Camera Tools") still see from that particle..

Real life example: you make group of flies, butter flies, bees, birds, fishes, delphins and particles define their position, direction and size.. For some time camera looks at them from outside.. Then switch to the one of them, and see what animal see at that time.. Including their friends flying around.. No key-frames! You can put traps, objects on their route and still see what they see...

jeremyhardin
12-22-2005, 04:18 AM
Not possible.. CCTV shader is not infiniMap that could be turned to procedural texture (it's still not a good place for infiniMap though, but currently there're no better-there should be procedural-image plug-in class).. They produce textures and not have access to ray-tracing functions (which wouldn't work in FPrime anyway because they just don't have data to operate at that time!).. Only shader, pixel-filter and volumetric can fire rays to the scene..

To makes such things possible Worley would have to create FPrime SDK and 3rd party developers start using it in their plug-ins...

You little misunderstood my previous post.. What I meant was "This trick could be done with anything.. Wanna surface, polygon, bone or light (or particle) that is "source of view" for tomorrow.. ?"..

Yeah.. With particle that could be even funny.. Take location, direction and size of particular one and treat as camera, without having to create additional camera and key-frames in that place.. If something, dynamic or object, changed particle parameters, it's no problem for such CCTV shader (or pixel-filter like Vodka aka "LW new Camera Tools") still see from that particle..

Real life example: you make group of flies, butter flies, bees, birds, fishes, delphins and particles define their position, direction and size.. For some time camera looks at them from outside.. Then switch to the one of them, and see what animal see at that time.. Including their friends flying around.. No key-frames! You can put traps, objects on their route and still see what they see...

well it was worth a shot ;)

TrueArt Support
12-22-2005, 05:59 AM
QuickCCTV shader plug-in, objects, scene and generated animation are in the attachment.. For first sigh looks like mirror, but it's not.. Try moving QuickCCTV Table 2 object over the time in Z axis, you will see how it moves in both real time view and QuickCCTV shader view.. Obviously you must render frame to see it.. OpenGL or FPrime won't show rays fired into scene..

Camera Fake is really fake, just to imagine where objects should be put to be seen by plug.. Plug-in gets world coords of location where surface was hit by ray and use following equation to calculate where to start new ray:

position[ 0 ] = -1.0 + access->wPos[ 2 ];
position[ 1 ] = 0.0 + access->wPos[ 1 ];
position[ 2 ] = -1.0 + access->wPos[ 0 ];

Direction is always 1,0,0.. which means it's completely parallel.. No perspective distortion etc.

PaZ
12-22-2005, 09:01 AM
Whatever the case I took this as meaning "non-destructive". So williamsburroughs was not only asking for "animated booleans" he was asking for non-destructive ones aswell. Admittedly, without knowing very much about LWs inner workings or push/pull DAGs, I just couldn't see how you could get the non-destructiveness into LW (Modeler in particular) without giving it a total makeover. Which makes the rather innocent looking request seem rather silly from in my opinion*

Again, why innocent ? Its a precise question and i find it reasonable.
Every 3D app works that way, and its not just a case or a fashion.. it's simply better and gives you more power and flexibility.
LW has really to catch up and this means it has to get an up to date tool. I cannot see how it can be that without implementing at least parametric/interactive modeling for every tool (drill and booleans too), if not some sort of non destructivity of modeling process, which involves history, stacks and so on. do you think you'd find LW "updated" if you couldnt modify and extruded shape dragging spline's points ? Or if you couldnt see spline patching in realtime ?
"Play once" tool modeling was good in early '90, now i cannot think they are not going in that direction. It would be foolish; LW had come to a development stop just because its architecture did not allow for anything more than adding plugins (i was saying that since 6.0 release, which was supposed to be a "rewritten" code). I cannot think how they could do the same error twice: "rewriting" core code without making it up to date, but just "less antiquated".
I think it's not the case, but if it is, i'd prefer to see LW 9 in 2007. Otherwise, we'll get at release 10 or 11 in need of another rewrite... and so on ;)

Paolo

lightwolf
12-22-2005, 11:30 PM
(it's still not a good place for infiniMap though, but currently there're no better-there should be procedural-image plug-in class)
Hehe, I just _have_ to jump in here ;)
Have I requested a procedural image class ages ago? Yup... :D
(However, looking at how LW handles images sometimes, It wouldn't have quite worked as expected either).
Can't wait to port to nodal though. My hope for LW 9.x are based on a hopefully much expanded SDK. Having that many ex-third-party developers on board should make this a reasonable expectation...

Cheers,
Mike

TrueArt Support
12-23-2005, 03:24 AM
Hehe, I just _have_ to jump in here ;)
Have I requested a procedural image class ages ago? Yup... :D
(However, looking at how LW handles images sometimes, It wouldn't have quite worked as expected either).

Who to hell will apply image-filter on 80 MB image anyway?! ;)

Can't wait to port to nodal though. My hope for LW 9.x are based on a hopefully much expanded SDK. Having that many ex-third-party developers on board should make this a reasonable expectation...

LW SDK 8.x was extended by just PolygonHandler and Volumetric Evaluation (thing made especially for Worley, that they didn't use! LOL!) and a few really minor things here and there.. Without LightWave programmer on lw-plugin@yahoogroups.com how they do know what we need and want?! He must be all the time talking with us, showing 'I am here, and listening' and writing things we want on TODO list.. and discussing about them with other programmers about how to properly extend LW SDK in future releases..

lightwolf
12-23-2005, 08:06 AM
Who to hell will apply image-filter on 80 MB image anyway?! ;)

80MB? 80GB! ;)

LW SDK 8.x was extended by just PolygonHandler and Volumetric Evaluation (thing made especially for Worley, that they didn't use! LOL!)
Actually, the latest version of FPrime uses it for final renders only though, and it only works with select volumetrics.

Now if FPrime could replace _all_ raytrace call within LW ;)

Cheers,
Mike

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