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LW3D
12-16-2005, 11:45 PM
NewTek released videos which shows some of the features in LightWave 9 .

ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/LW9/

bigbad
12-17-2005, 12:16 AM
I don't get it. Whats so great about those functions??

LW3D
12-17-2005, 12:29 AM
nobody says they are great... But you probably see only 3 videos yet. they still upload others..
if you want to see something cool please wait a little ...

harlan_hill
12-17-2005, 12:36 AM
I don't get it. Whats so great about those functions??



There isn't supposed to be anything great about those functions. NewTek is just releasing the occasional video showing some of the enhancements & new features coming in LW9. Those 3 clips are in no way intended to showcase some groundbreaking functions, rather they show current LW users a couple of workflow enhancements coming in 9.

Beamtracer
12-17-2005, 01:01 AM
NewTek is just releasing the occasional video showing some of the enhancements & new features coming in LW9.
Is that news? Considering they already announced LW9 some months ago.

yog
12-17-2005, 10:09 AM
Is that news? Considering they already announced LW9 some months ago.It's still slated for Q4 2006, right ? :D
Surely they wouldn't leave it till after the deadline has expired (again) to announce a delay ? :D

Dennik
12-17-2005, 01:16 PM
Aawwww so much love all around, its unbearable!!!

schuubars
12-17-2005, 01:37 PM
hehe, true mostly on LW related threads here at cgtalk. ;)

Aawwww so much love all around, its unbearable!!!

Signal2Noise
12-17-2005, 03:07 PM
I guess the real news is NewTek haven't been bought out by anyone. ;)


Did anyone else get the LightWave [9] flyer in the mail a few days ago?

Nemoid
12-17-2005, 04:41 PM
I'm overwhelmed by your HUGE love for Lw here, guys !! :D

Well i still keep thinking a new subpatch algorithm supporting ngons, and edge support as an item are 2 good enhancements for Lw.
CCTV shader movie was also a good one.

These are only the first movies before showing some of the cool enhancements Lw 9.0 will have.
Some cool things has been showed during Siggraph and put online on the Newtek website.


It could be playing some catch up, but Lw hasn't died yet.

Lyr
12-17-2005, 06:21 PM
It could be playing some catch up, but Lw hasn't died yet.

Some catch up? It looks like that is all Newtek is doing. Maxon just announced and released a demo of the most innovative commercial hair solution to date, and Newtek is just now giving thier users the latest and greatest from 1999. The presentation of those videos is pretty amatuer too, just a file listing on thier ftp? no thumbnails and descriptions? Do they realize that non-LW users are going to be checking these videos out? this is a chance for them to advertise and make an impression.

rock
12-17-2005, 06:49 PM
It seems everytime a new version of LW is released, it announces 1 1/2 years ahead, then announce again 1 year later before it's released, then again a few months before it's released. Then when the released date is passed, no one knows that it has been delayed and a pin drop could be heard. It's the Yin and Yang of marketing - announced before it's done, quiet when it's not done.

SheepFactory
12-17-2005, 07:30 PM
LW users welcome to 1998! :)

Cageman
12-17-2005, 07:49 PM
LW users welcome to 1998! :)

Hey man, one of LightWaves best features is to keep the users young and healthy!! ;)

rakmaya
12-17-2005, 08:01 PM
LW users welcome to 1998! :)

LOL. Today's best post.

chrisWhite
12-17-2005, 08:44 PM
LW users welcome to 1998! :)
I can't help but agree on this one, someone on another forum mentioned that LW is getting all the cool things from Wings. Great, so now LW is as good as free software? :shrug: I really like LW, I like the work flow, the render engine and the interface, but dang has it fallen behind. I really hope they don't pull another late release either.

harlan_hill
12-17-2005, 09:03 PM
Who cares if it's considered "news" or not? Why the F#ck do you people always feel like you need to bash products? Does it provide some substance in your otherwise pathetic and useless lives? I mean come on people.

CGTalk used to be a useful industry resource, but now it's very little more than a "playground" for the endless drivel spouted by a bunch of a$$holes. If it's not a platform war, it's a console war; if it's not a console war, it's some bias driven bashing of someone elses product.

This place has become a waste of time with the exception of the occasional useful post.

Half the time I don't know why I even bother anymore...

Beamtracer
12-17-2005, 09:22 PM
Who cares if it's considered "news" or not? Why the F#ck do you people always feel like you need to bash products?
To ask if it is news isn't "bashing" the product. Months after the product was announced, Newtek is adding some promotional videos to its website.

The "new" Lightwave features were previously announced, so the only news here is that the Newtek website has changed. If that's worthy of a news story, then maybe we should have a CGTalk news thread whenever any of the other software vendors add something to their websites.

I'm glad that Newtek is working on putting 'edge' functionality into Lightwave 9 when it is released some time next year.

It's also always entertaining when they post pictures of Newtek President Tim Jennison flying his helicopter around San Antonio.

http://www.newtek.com/newtek/behind/gallery/albums/ChopperTour/Chopper_71.thumb.jpghttp://www.newtek.com/newtek/behind/gallery/albums/ChopperTour/Chopper_04.thumb.jpghttp://www.newtek.com/newtek/behind/gallery/albums/ChopperTour/Chopper_06.thumb.jpghttp://www.newtek.com/newtek/behind/gallery/albums/ChopperTour/Chopper_61.thumb.jpg

Kid-Mesh
12-17-2005, 09:53 PM
Who cares if it's considered "news" or not? Why the F#ck do you people always feel like you need to bash products? Does it provide some substance in your otherwise pathetic and useless lives? I mean come on people......

I feel your pain bro (proud user here). But what sucks is this, we are all supposed to be a "Community" right? It's one thing to bash a product...dumb but go ahead if you must. But damn, bash it's users? (It happens to us wavers everywhere)...That's just low....IMO it's a form of CG segregation amongst artists which is rampant here at CGTALK when the opportunity arises.

When I first joined CGTALK I joined a community of artists I thought. But I see it's now just a clique crowd based mainly on the application/tools you develop with....lame. :curious:

I really wish I knew what people got out of bashing LW and it's user base other than the typical reasons?:shrug:




Wait! I know, how stupid of me... I believe its called Elitism.

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

Cageman
12-17-2005, 10:05 PM
People bashing LightWave and/or the users shouldn't be taken too seriously. It's their credibility that goes to the bin. I am using LightWave alot and also use it in companion with Maya. I´m looking forward to the release of 9.0... some neat features and updates. The only thing I can say, chill out and use some humor to tackle the few bashing people...

Cheers!

EDIT: And yes, we feel younger and more healthy than the "other" people... ;) *LOL*

SheepFactory
12-17-2005, 10:14 PM
EDIT: And yes, we feel younger and more healthy than the "other" people... ;) *LOL*

Hard to believe that . you guys all sound very stressed out :)

yog
12-17-2005, 10:16 PM
But damn, bash it's users? (It happens to us wavers everywhere).. Even paranoids have enemies ? ;)

I really wish I knew what people got out of bashing LW and it's user base other than the typical reasons?:shrug: One thing that keeps getting missed by Lightwave artists that ask this is, most of the people that have something negative to say about LW, happen to be former LW users themselves. I visit many software forums, and generally people who have never used LW never have a bad thing to say about it (excluding people that tried a demo for 5 minutes then dropped it because it wasn't exactly the same as they were using).

If you honestly believe the majority of the non-LW 3D community have something against Lightwave and it's users, I would sugest the the first thing you do is ask why ?
And no, as much as elitisum might be an easy answer for a LW users to pallet, I would point out that neither Wings or Silo users complain about being "picked on" by the wider community.

Beamtracer
12-17-2005, 10:26 PM
It's one thing to bash a product...dumb but go ahead if you must. But damn, bash it's users?
Hi Kid Mesh. I was surprised that you thought the previous posts were attacking the users of Lightwave.

I went back and re-read all the posts to see who was attacked. There are lots of comments for and against the product, but the only post I could find that mentions the users was "LW users welcome to 1998! :)". I think it's pretty mild. It's probably more a comment on the product than the users.

I don't think any of the posts on the thread have personally attacked other forum members. However, technology and products will always be debated. For and against.

Cageman
12-17-2005, 10:28 PM
And no, as much as elitisum might be an easy answer for a LW users to pallet, I would point out that neither Wings or Silo users complain about being "picked on" by the wider community.

Well, I don't understand why anyone has to "pick on" anyone in the first place? Ohh, well.. I´m living in a dreamworld...again. :)

yog
12-17-2005, 10:47 PM
Well, I don't understand why anyone has to "pick on" anyone in the first place? Ohh, well.. I´m living in a dreamworld...again. :)That's my point, I don't think anyone is being picked on. I think it's more a case of some users being over protective to the software they have invested time and money on. Negative comments on a piece of software is not an attack on it's users.

If I were to go on a 3DS MAX forum and say that MAX was a bloated piece of software, that was a real resources hog, had abismal Open-GL support, it's NURBS implementation sucked and it's material editor was out of the Ark, some would agree with me, some disagree, but I can't imagine any user taking it personally :shrug:

harlan_hill
12-17-2005, 11:26 PM
Well, I don't understand why anyone has to "pick on" anyone in the first place? Ohh, well.. I´m living in a dreamworld...again. :)


That's what I'm saying man... it's just seriously irritating.

trygve
12-17-2005, 11:39 PM
If I were to go on a 3DS MAX forum and say that MAX was a bloated piece of software, that was a real resources hog, had abismal Open-GL support, it's NURBS implementation sucked and it's material editor was out of the Ark, some would agree with me, some disagree, but I can't imagine any user taking it personally :shrug:

So what is wrong with us, then Yog? And why do you keep on posting your ironic, non-constructive, little comments if we are so sensitive and fragile?

:rolleyes:

Nichod
12-17-2005, 11:39 PM
My opinion is this :thumbsup:

Every application is playing catchup at some point and in some part of itself. I for one applaud when companies work towards improving and updating their software. To me it doesn't matter the length of time it takes, any improvement over time is better than no improvement. LW is an excellent application and has been around and used in production for well over a decade. It deserves credit where its due. I may not personally like LW, but version 9 seems at first glance like a step in the right direction. Lets wait and see before shouting out judgements, etc.

Beamtracer
12-17-2005, 11:57 PM
So what is wrong with us, then Yog?
Nothing is wrong with you, trygve. You're a fine person.

Some people just thought Lightwave took a long time to introduce 'edges'.

trygve
12-18-2005, 12:10 AM
Nothing is wrong with you, trygve. You're a fine person. Some people just thought Lightwave took a long time to introduce 'edges'.

Why do they think about that when they are not actually using the software? And if they are using it, why would they if it's such a pain in the *ss and so inferior to other 3D-programs? Is it an SM-thing?

/me still confused

:rolleyes:

Beamtracer
12-18-2005, 12:40 AM
Why do they think about that when they are not actually using the software? And if they are using it, why would they if it's such a pain in the *ss and so inferior to other 3D-programs? Is it an SM-thing?

/me still confused

:rolleyes:

"SM", as you describe it (I assume you mean sado-masochism) is when someone likes to hurt themselves.

I like to make a distinction between the software I use and myself. So if someone comments that the software vendor took too long to introduce a feature, I don't see that as an attack on myself, or hurting myself (as the term "SM" would imply).

I'm a Lightwave user. I use it every day. When Newtek announced that Lightwave will gain Edge support (next year) my first thought is that it is long overdue.

BTW, trygve, I like your bird avatar :)

habañero
12-18-2005, 12:47 AM
It is rubbish though that there aint innovation with LW. First, Newtek have stated publicly that this is not a "catch-up" release but on the same branch, it is a core rewrite release. It is still exciting to see how much they will open the new core up in the sdk, but it'll be a around 68.5 times more powerful to build on anyway, infinite nodes at a fraction of the price of Mayax.

Second, there are rather interesting stuff going on with plugin development, Fprime aint news but just this month there was infinimap, that can render 10 gigabyte texture maps *in Fprime* at a 80 mb memory hit. Can the other programs do this? Is it cheap? Nurbs and really nifty grid/geometry library functions coming up with LW-cad, and the new voxel engine dynamite that looks really hot.

Third, some of this catching up (or "over") is happening towards tools with price and development teams many many times the size of LW. They are such capitalists! Newtek is on a really nice vector, we're gonna be like "welcome Mayax users, to 2008!", in 2010 with a flying car :p

I don't think Newtek imagined a news posting at CGtalk over this, I'd have to agree these vids by themselves aint fit for the news forum but to generate amusement for users of the other apps on behalf of nice people like me ... It is all fine, LW is a sturdy enough boat. I was really tempted to test that post in the 3DS MAX forum though ... I think I could manage to get responses with just the right spelling ...

And what the **** is wrong with 1998! It was avesome! :D

Layer01
12-18-2005, 12:48 AM
Why do they think about that when they are not actually using the software? And if they are using it, why would they if it's such a pain in the *ss and so inferior to other 3D-programs? Is it an SM-thing?

/me still confused

:rolleyes:

well i had to use LW for a bit in one job. ony touched modeler but that was enough to guarantee i'd never touch the software again. Nothing but trouble and the no manipulators no edges and crazy half baked tools and bugs sealed the deal for me.
so i joke about the software too (porbably as a way to relieve stress, in the same way that one might joke about a governments policies) and i was using it and i thought it was a pain in the ass and inferior. and then when i could i stopped using it.
just an illustation of how this sort of joking can come about.
but i can understand your frustration if you use and like the soft. course that only feeds the joking you know.

yog
12-18-2005, 01:08 AM
So what is wrong with us, then Yog? And why do you keep on posting your ironic, non-constructive, little comments if we are so sensitive and fragile?

:rolleyes:I think this has illustrated the "sensitive and fragile" element quite well ;)

As far as being able to point out the shortcomings of a piece of software, I'm of the opinion that having earnt a crust with it for 8+ years (6 solely with LW, the last 2 with other apps), and still owning the current version, it allows me some opinion on what I do and don't like about the software. If that doesn't offend you of course ;)

habañero
12-18-2005, 01:10 AM
Layer 01, that review I think says more about you and your skills than the software. If it is that bad, how do you explain all that nifty work that's been made with it? I gotta say I had pretty much the same experience trying max, it just wouldn't fit in my head. But it was more a question of just how both I and the program is put together in general, I didn't feel at home in it. My conclusion though was clearly not that "I will never use max", just didn't seem a logical place to start. I think it has bugs, as well, I noticed a few ...

"but i can understand your frustration if you use and like the soft. course that only feeds the joking you know."

Reading stuff like that aint insulting, it is just ridiculous. You are obviously not trying to do any good either to the thread, the guy you replied to or the community in general. Its what I at sea would call a piss post, and this seems to be a windy thread.

EDIT:
I don't have any issue with people that know what they are talking about making arguments either way, as long as there is some substance in the point being made. Mostly the substance part really. LW users being particularly sensitive, my conclusion is that it maybe aint that uncommon with artists around the board. In a little pinch like this one, I have a feeling there'd be some emotions there from max users as well, I don't really know though ... There's a big mix of people here with way different age, experience, culture and situation, it is easy enough to get miscommunication while talking about peaceful constructive things. I think many times in emotional exchanges here people don't have real disagreement to back up the arguments, people read stuff way way differently. But I can't get any misunderstanding to fit in place at the qoute over, he is opnening his gulf and having a go at it ... :p

Qslugs
12-18-2005, 01:33 AM
Man, this is a bummer. Welcome to 1998 is right. Sorry if that offends a few of you. I just deleted a huge rant. Let's just say that I too am unhappy with the direction LW is headed. I've been a loyal user and upgrader since version 4.0. The past 5 years, I have had the opportunity to use just about every other package out there professionally. I am fairly certain that Newtek will not be getting my upgrade dollars this round.

Cageman
12-18-2005, 01:44 AM
Man, this is a bummer. Welcome to 1998 is right. Sorry if that offends a few of you. I just deleted a huge rant. Let's just say that I too am unhappy with the direction LW is headed. I've been a loyal user and upgrader since version 4.0. The past 5 years, I have had the opportunity to use just about every other package out there professionally. I am fairly certain that Newtek will not be getting my upgrade dollars this round.

Sad to hear you feel that way, but if you found other software to be more usefull to you, then thats ok with me! :) I'm a bit curious though, in what direction would you like LW to go?

I don't really see whats wrong with the current roadmap...

habañero
12-18-2005, 02:10 AM
Let's see what we are talking about people!

Major Core Changes to the LightWave Rendering Engine
The following changes have been made to the LightWave Render Core:

• Implementation of BSP/KD Tree Algorithm
• Complete replacement of the original ray tracing core
• Any function that uses ray tracing calls will be significantly faster in most cases
• Typical speed improvements begin at 2.5x over LightWave version 8.3
• That’s the same as buying three times as many machines for your render farm! (Some scenes may see even more improvement in speed)

The actual core of the LightWave rendering engine has been replaced with a modern implementation that reflects some of the latest developments in the CG industry. This new foundation allows for expansion of new rendering technologies, and lays a very strong foundation for the future. Not to mention the fact that the rendering engine, in addition to being higher quality, is now significantly faster!
Adaptive subdivision of a mesh based on distance from camera and visibility

• Improvements to Sub-division surfaces
• Fixes to Catmull/Clark Implementation
• Added Adaptive Sub-division method
• Separate tessellation values for shading, shadow and reflection/refraction channels
• Highly optimized mesh, tied to render resolution
• Visibly similar to micro-poly displacement

Improvements have been made to sub-division surfaces (SDS), and a new mode called adaptive mode. Adaptive mode is a fixed resolution tessellation filter. The user can set separate level of detail settings for shading, shadows and reflection tessellation of the sub-division surface, which are sampled at the sub-pixel level. By separating the subdivision for the surface into separate attributes, memory is conserved, as there is only as much subdivision as required by the final output resolution, and the user receives more control over image quality.

This approach has certain other benefits, such as significantly improved displacement performance, as the mesh is highly optimized. As an example, if you are rendering a 640 by 480 image and you sent a sub-pixel value of 4 (aka 16 subs per pixel), then you simply get 16 polygons at max per pixel in the scene. This results in the ability to displace and deform with higher accuracy. While not true micro-poly displacement, this method will yield similar results in many cases.

Camera Lens Shader
New rendering technology renders scenes using arbitrary camera lenses and warps. This allows for some fantastical effects, such as:

• Camera plane deformations
• Arbitrary projections
• UV map generation
• Multi camera out put to a single image
• True orthographic rendering
• Space warp simulations
• Lens distortion duplicating physically accurate real world lenses or non-existent “imaginary” lenses
• 360 degree panorama rendering (one camera)
• Full access from Lscript and C
• And more

The lens shader system is a whole new way of rendering in LightWave3D. Renders are no longer limited to the standard perspective camera. Instead, you can now create any type of camera lens you wish. Perspective, orthographic, fisheye, 360 degree panorama.

You can even render the scene as seen from the surface of a mesh. The lens shader gives you full control over what part of the scene is rendered for any part of the image. Multiple camera angles can be rendered to the same image in one pass. Want to have a front/side/top view in the same render? The lens shader can do it. No need to do three renders and composite them together.
Previously, effects such as these were achieved with post-process filtering, which caused artifacts, and degraded the overall quality of the image. Now, these effects are done mimicking actual light physics, resulting in a very high-quality result. However, no camera lens is perfect; the camera lens shader will let you reproduce that reality as well, by allowing you to create lens artifacts such as barrel distortions. Don’t stop there, though. The lens shader will also allow you to create outlandish, impossibly warped and twisted views for that unique look when normal just won’t do.

Timewarp – Time Re-mapping and Warping Shader
This shader remaps time for:

• Bullet-time
• Freeze-time
• Slow-motion effects
• Fast-motion effects

Timewarp manipulates time. Previously time has just been a steady clock ticking away at a certain number of frames per second. Now with Timewarp you can slow the clock down, speed it up, even wind it back, all during a single animation.

Timewarp can warp the time in a scene while keeping the camera unwarped. This will allow for unblurred camera motion, while retaining blurred motion of the action within the camera’s field of view. Effects like bullet-time can be created in this way. Timewarp can also manipulate motion blur in new ways for special effects. You can now fly through a motion blur, without additional blurring from the camera’s motion

CCTV Shader
CCTV is a shader that paints a view of the scene on a surface; render a view from a camera onto a surface, with controls for brightness, saturation and contrast:

• Create a closed-circuit TV display
• Simulate digital camera displays
• Render a view through binoculars and magnifying scopes
• Create holographic instances


Waterpool HyperVoxel Particle Displacement Shader
This shader stretches and squashes HyperVoxel particles based on particle properties and distance between particle and mesh. Waterpool gives you new levels of control over HyperVoxel particles. With Waterpool you can:

• Create more realistic looking pools of water
• Change the orientation of hyper-voxel particles arbitrarily
• Stretch and squash hyper-voxels based on the properties of individual particles
• Alter the size of hyper-voxels as a function of time, space, or distance to an object • ...and much more.
More precisely, Waterpool allows you to change the size, thickness (or flatness), and orientation of particles as a function of distance to object surfaces, particle properties, or any arbitrary envelope.

Tension Map
Modulates bump amplitude based on degree of dynamic local mesh deformation.

• Create wrinkles on bending joints
• Alter the color of a surface based upon polygon distortion

Tension Map makes more realistic, dynamic wrinkles. It does this by altering the degree of bump mapping used based on the amount of local polygon distortion. So for example, when an arm is bent, wrinkles applied as a bump map become more pronounced around the joint, where the mesh is being squeezed. Or, if the mesh is stretched the wrinkles will disappear.
Tension Map can also be used to alter the color of a surface based on how much a polygon has expanded or shrunk due to some distortion. This could be used to simulate the whitening of the skin as it is stretched, or to indicate areas where the mesh is being stressed.

Sketch Image Filter
This new image filter enables a render to be post processed with a sketch-like treatment.
New Volumetric Shader

Allows for fast rendering of large numbers (order of 1 million) of simple volumetric particles.
Animation/Character Animation
• Improved Bone/Joint Drawing Speed
• Improved Bone/Joint Evaluation Speed
• Improved Bone Creation Process
• Improved Rotation Precision
• Inclusion of Relativity 2 Expression System

Relativity 2
LightWave 9 includes the Relativity Expression Engine developed by Prem Design.

• Point-and-click set-up using "professors"
• Multiple levels of expressions: one object can reference another object with an expression on it, and so on.
• Expressions to react to IK-based motions
• Ease of navigation between multiple instances of Relativity, so mass updates of expressions can be done with ease
• Relative referencing of motion data (SELF, PARENT, ROOT, PREV, NEXT and relative referencing of a matched object name within a hierarchy), so it is possible to copy expressions between objects and have each know what it's supposed to do
• A number of higher level functions are included that can measure path distance traveled, sum up an item's channel values over time, determine optimal following distances, watch for events, etc.
• Functions to measure speed, acceleration, velocity, interpolation, etc.
• Comments can be embedded within expressions, so you don't end up totally confused when revisiting an expression set up a month or two ago
• Language is simple and easy to understand
• Includes a large set of "scratch variables" that allow complex setups of expressions
• Receive detailed feedback when errors are encountered
• Expression-based morphing and displacement, including complex morphing forms like traveling morphs, effector morphs, etc.
• Objects can follow points on other objects and morph between points on multiple objects, allowing higher-level "crowd control" with a series of morph targets.
• Textures can be used for displacement, deformation, color envelopes, etc.
Sticky

This new Item Motion plug-in allows an object to move on or by an offset distance across the surface of a target mesh.
Path Align

Path Align offers a robust align to path, unaffected by very slow or no motion.
Proximity

A new Proximity channel modifier modifies a channel based on closest distance between an object and a mesh or other items.
Quaternion Rotations

A new rotation controller offers quaternion rotations to minimize gimbal lock.
User Interface/Workflow Improvement
Model and Edit Meshes and Weight Maps in Layout
• Many modeling operations now available in Layout
• Vertex maps and Weight maps can now be created and edited with Layout
• Major workflow improvements
• Character rigging is much simplified

The core workflow of modeling, rigging and animation has just undergone a radical new paradigm shift in LightWave. While users may wish to start the modeling process in Modeler, they can now move the process over to Layout very early, and continue refining the mesh, rigging the mesh, and adding and editing mesh weight and vertex maps directly from within Layout. Many modeling functions once limited to Modeler only are now available within Layout, saving many hours in the creation and animation process.



Complete Re-implementation of Open GL
• Much faster UI performance
• Preview Lighting scenarios within the UI
• Less need for preview renders
• Hardware shading of materials and textures
• Hardware shading of procedural textures
• New Drawing modes and options

LightWave 9.0 fully supports the Open GL 2.0 specification, leveraging the power of the latest graphics cards. New drawing modes provide new ways of interacting with scene objects and meshes, and provide for a faster turnaround of the creative process. Results from real time Open GL shading very closely mirror the results of the LightWave rendering engine, which reduces the amount of test renders that are required. Lighting and materials can be previewed directly within the user interface with a much higher degree of accuracy than ever before.

Material Shader Node Graph
LightWave 9 includes an integrated node graph to create complex shading networks or shade trees. Using existing LightWave shaders, the node graph allows the user to “wire” parameters of various shaders and operators together to create powerful shaders without any user coding required.
Not just a face lift, the Material Node Graph is a completely new method of working with materials, which offers an order of magnitude more capability than the older surface and material edit system.

• F Prime Support
• Normal Maps from Z Brush 2 Supported
• Create Textured Morph Maps
• Animated Weight Maps
• Microbump Operator
• Branches can be imported and exported
• Raytrace Nodes
• Distance Nodes
• Proximity Nodes
• Direction Slope Nodes
• Work how you want to work: Layers in Nodes; Nodes in Layers; Layers Only; Nodes Only
• Full support of native controls and envelopes
• Available in Layout and Modeler, and maintains context when switching between the two
UI Configuration
Now the user has more control over how the user interface appears and operates:

• the ability to change colors of almost any element; the ability to create special tabs with user defined commands
• the ability to change the colors of animation channels
• the ability to customize display and selection colors of points, edges and polygons
• the ability to control the display of polygon normals beyond what was previously available
View Renders and Image Files in UI Viewports
Shows F9 renders in a viewport
The user can now create a viewport viewer with full control in terms of context, placement and size.
You can:

• Create a Standalone Image viewer
• Create an Embedded Image viewer
• View texture images, renders, preview renders
• View as many images as you have memory for
Paint Splat
A New Texture and Custom Object allow you to paint a canvas with splats made by impacting particles.
Particle Cloud
Another new custom object creates a particle cloud from an image + depth map.
Modeling Improvements
• Redesigned Subdivision Surface Core Engine
• Faster Performance
• Better Results
• Edge Selection (throughout Modeler)
• Edge Weights
• N-gons (polygons greater than 4 sides)
Redesign of the Core Subdivision Surface Engine

These days, subdivision surfaces have become the standard by which most characters, props and environments are created. LightWave led the way with the first commercial implementation of subdivision surfaces. Now, LightWave sets the bar again, re-engineering the core algorithms for even faster speed, and better results. That means modeling in a shorter period of time.

Expansion of Subdivision Surfacing Tools with Edges and N-sided Polygons
In addition to making the subdivision surface engine faster and more efficient, the capabilities of the engine have been expanded to include the ability to use edges in the construction process, add weighting to edges which allows for sharp corners and creases with no additional geometry needed, and the ability to use polygons with greater than four sides in the process.

Edge Selection and Operation Added to Tools Throughout Modeler
Edge selection and operation are now allowed in almost all tools available within Modeler. This powerful addition to the Modeler toolset will allow the user new ways of creating and refining shapes, and improve productivity in the creation process.
Improved Modeler Workflows

Even though Modeler tools are now available within Layout, many people still prefer to model a great portion of their work in Modeler. Recognizing that, Modeler workflows have been improved and tool functions that were spread across several tools are now consolidated into just a few. This makes Modeler easier to learn, and faster to get creative.

More Dynamic Dynamics :D

• Faster Loading of Dynamics Scene Files
• Redesigned Dynamics User Interface
• Better Workflow
• Improved Solving Precision
Improvements in dynamics loading and solving, and cleaner workflows in the dynamics user interface makes dynamics more attractive and easier to use. Higher precision in solver engines allow for better results right out of the box, and the redesigned user interface makes things easier to find and implement. This allows for greater experimentation to get the results that you want.


Scripting Improvements

• LScripts can now be created, handled and run via C/C++ plug-ins.
• Improved wrapper for LWVParms, with easy evaluation, automatic loading, saving, copying and xpanel control setup
• The ability to fix rotations of selected items so as to minimize differences in angles between keyframes (used for fixing up mocap data containing angles modulo 360 degrees).
• Point of Impact routine finds 3D mesh coordinates closest to a set of points, including info on closest point, vertex, edge, and polygon.
• A new Virtual File System creates LWLoadState and LWSaveState for loading/saving to memory instead of a file; LWLoadState and LWSaveState wrapper for debug tracing of reads and writes.
• A new routine to map UV coordinates to 3D mesh coordinates and polygon and interpolation info
SDK Improvements
Node Graph SDK
Documentation Improvements
Reformatted documentation includes many improvements and additional material to help make LightWave easier to learn.

I there will be more, they are probably adding to the list as we speak.

habañero
12-18-2005, 02:13 AM
And the Roadmap to world peace:

link (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php)

LightWave's Future: The Development Model

The New Development Model:

At the beginning of the development of LightWave version 8.0, NewTek was also in the process of building a new development team for the flagship 3D product. While the primary goal for the new team during the cycle that led to the release of 8.0 was to master the existing code base and implement the feature set scheduled for 8.0, considerable attention was also given to the development environment and procedures as they had been carried on to that point, and decisions were made about how to proceed for the future.

Among those decisions was to move to a development model wherein the team would be able to rebuild the application, but in a manner that allowed them to continue bringing users new features and maintenance enhancements as they progressed. NewTek's video team had already implemented this model, based on previous art and precedent in the software development industry, and known as "parallel changeover." In addition to the benefits to the clients of providing regular enhancement of the product, the approach also avoids the other well-documented difficulties that have been encountered by those in the industry who have redeveloped a product in an all-at-once fashion, while leaving the previous version of the product static for up to several years.

NewTek's approach to the model is to implement innovative structures that allow both the rapid advancement of a given product, but also easy application of IP across multiple products. With regard to the first goal, rapid advancement means not simply the addition of new features, but also the ability to quickly revise or even replace structures and elements of the IP in order to take advantage of the latest software design technologies and of innovations from the development teams. The second goal is to apply intelligent, efficient design so that the code base can easily be used to maximum advantage to create new products derived from the original base product within a line, or IP can be applied across multiple product lines.

Since the release of version [8], the development team has indeed been implementing a major rewrite and restructuring of LightWave's core, while at the same time devoting major effort to stabilizing the codebase. Basically, the sum of the changes implemented to date in the preceding releases, plus those currently being completed, constitute a profoundly new LightWave 3D, version 9.0, that will offer an entirely new workflow within a profoundly stable platform.
Structural and Development Changes in the 8.x Series:

In the 8.2 release, the team accomplished major changes to the geometry core for revised UV support and for subdivision surfaces UV compensation, giving users the only solution in the industry that gives them functional control of how UV maps are adjusted to compensate for distortion effects on their subpatch objects. The team also revised the renderer core to implement reconstruction filters and PLD anti-aliasing options, which provided users the ability to benefit from anti-aliasing with a much wider range of pass options, thus the potential for saving rendering time in a variety of instances.

Additionally, the team completed extraction of the renderer from Layout and shipped it for the first time as a dll/shlib (the team has been somewhat surprised that the appearance of the rendering module as a standalone entity in the Programs folder went completely unremarked by users). This change in the relationship of the renderer to the rest of the application has a number of implications for the future both for NewTek development and for third party opportunities. It will be possible to ship multiple versions of the renderer optimized per platform (processor included), to implement multiple optional renderers that the user can select from, and to allow for third party rendering options. The renderer is now also much easier to work on in order to implement improvements, as the code was previously not contiguous and well-isolated within the Layout core.

For the 8.3 release, the team accomplished the revision of the render core to implement faster and more accurate vector blur routines optimized for today's compositing workflow. The render core was also revised to allow volumetrics to access fog information and to provide for proper interaction among volumetrics, fog and dissolve. In addition, the team took advantage of an opportune moment to release a revised 8.3 when they completed the SDK changes to allow third party plug-ins to access shaders, volumetrics and fog, close on the heels of the initial 8.3 release.

The time leading up to the 8.5 release was used to make substantial changes to the development methodologies and environment. This included substantial repurposing of code and changes in the structure and conventions used for source and documentation. A new development toolkit was adopted and implemented. For the 8.5 release, initial support for OpenGL 2.0 hardware shaders has been implemented, to provide an accurate real-time preview of many elements of texture and lighting. Many of these functions will depend on having newer, appropriate video cards.

Note: This Section of this Document updated on 10/11/05 to reflect changes to the 8.5 feature set from those initially projected.
Structural Changes and a New Workflow in 9.0:

The changes that have been made for the initial 9.0 release complete the necessary reconstruction of LightWave to begin implementing the desired new workflow. Modeling capabilities have been implemented in Layout by extracting the mesh-editing core from Modeler, and moving it into a common location where Layout and Modeler both have access. Layout's new capabilities extend to running many of the existing plug-ins created for Modeler as well, so many users who have expressed a preference for a single workspace for all model and scene creation will find Layout well on its way to being that single workspace.

A significant number of LightWave users prefer it specifically for the dedicated workspace for modeling tasks that it has traditionally offered, and they can retain that workflow with Modeler, as NewTek will continue to develop and provide this unique dedicated environment for model creation. The mesh editing toolset that will be available in both Modeler and Layout is undergoing consolidation and enhancement of the tools and workflow, including being updated with true edge support throughout. In addition, subdivision surfaces have been re-engineered for improved performance and n-gon support.

The team has also followed up the extraction of the renderer from the Layout module with a rewrite of the raytracing routines to newer, much faster algorithms. In many cases these will provide a 2.5x or better speed improvement. The team has also implemented adaptive mesh subdivision based on visibility and distance-to-camera. Additional changes and improvements to the classic renderer will provide improved performance and higher quality rendering capabilities.

Changes to the GUI allow for far more user configurability than in the past, including easy interface color controls, so that users can adapt the look to fit their needs and preferences and the interface elements to provide the best workflow for the ways they use LightWave. The older internal drawing routines were replaced with a new OpenGL system that supports the OpenGL 2 standard and uses the functions now available in hardware to provide much faster performance. Adding more OpenGL 2 hardware shader functions and support is also part of the version 9.0 upgrade.

The logic and workflow for the dynamics systems are also receiving an overhaul. Scenes will load faster, and calculations have greater precision. The UI is being streamlined to make things easier to find and implement.

And this list is not exhaustive. This revision will touch on virtually every aspect of LightWave and affect how every user works.

The LightWave Development team is looking forward to working with users as this exciting new edition of LightWave 3D is refined over the coming months of testing and development.

Note: This Section of this Document updated on 10/11/05 to reflect changes to the 9.0 feature set from those initially projected.

LightWave's Development and Future:
An Interview with Jay Roth, President of NewTek's 3D Products Division

Can you share your perspective on LightWave 3D, as someone who was a developer and user of other 3D packages?

Well, in some areas LightWave leads, and in others, it's behind the times. In regards to workflow, I think there is tremendous room for improvement. LightWave used to be very straightforward to use, but over the years, as complex features have been introduced, the workflows have gotten convoluted in many cases.

LightWave has been on the market longer than any other application currently available. Some of LightWave's features have led the industry, such as subdivision surfaces. However, the industry has also established standards, which need to be addressed in the LightWave workflow. Doing so will help make LightWave easier to use for those who have experience with other packages, and will also allow the LightWave user to benefit more directly from books and training materials which cover topics such as rigging, modeling and animation.
What do you feel is the current state of the 3D landscape? Where does LightWave fit into it? What are your goals for where LightWave will fit in the future?

Frankly, the 3D marketplace is very ugly. There are many packages out there, and few customers to sell to. The user base is clustered into several groups: very technically savvy people, who demand deep core access to program functions (these people are driving feature film effects); a bit less technical but very savvy artists (these people are typically in TV effects and markets outside traditional Hollywood-style productions); and those that have a real desire to create in 3D, but may not have the technical background or interest in pursuing a technical background in order to create 3D graphics (almost everyone else.)

Due to the degree of specialization required for 3D, both in terms of the process itself (computers, the disconnect between the mouse and the screen, and the non-real-time render process, not to mention technical issues such as rigging and asset management) as well as the fact that most creators of 3D are dealing with their universe at the atomic level (creation of almost all assets, which is very tedious), most people run screaming from 3D software. It's cool, but not cool enough to deal with the pain involved.

3D is not a mainstream process. Even though we are seeing more and more great educational materials from a variety of sources covering many different software products (I wish all of this information was available when I was first starting out...), it is still a niche market. A very, very small niche market.

All of these factors add up to one nasty place to be if you are in the software business (or in business in general). So, why do we do it? Because we love it, of course!

Now, the factors above have directly contributed to a lack of innovation in recent years. It is simply too expensive for most companies to throw millions of dollars of development monies into a market that is so small, with so many competitors fighting in a death match. Most of these companies are off-loading their development efforts overseas in an effort to cut costs. Most of them have not added really cool features in some time (there are occasional exceptions, of course.) I don't fault any company for this. It is impossible to justify the return on investment that innovation typically costs in market with conditions such as this.

What do you feel should be the major goals for the development of LightWave 3D?
We intend to put innovation back into the market, but first we intend to create a codebase that allows us to do that. We have stabilized our system, and are now capable of adding more and more new features in the product. These new features are intended to be production-reliable, meaning that they really work, and are not meant to merely wow at tradeshows. Sometimes these new features will be rather flashy; but always, whether flashy or just day-to-day useful, they will be reliable and solid. As we go, more and more innovation in LightWave will become apparent and undeniable.

How will making LightWave innovative be achieved? Are there specific plans that you can share at this time? If so, what are those?

As noted above, innovation is our target goal. I think that the market will be pleased with what we do down the road. Reliability is our other goal, as most of our customers make money with LightWave, and use the product to make a living. To that end, we intend to keep LightWave always approachable, yet upgrade LightWave, and give it a more modern feel and workflow as well.

While many have called for a "fresh start" that involves rewriting the application from scratch, NewTek has stated that it is taking a progressive "stage-at-a-time" approach to redesigning LightWave from the ground up. Why does NewTek feel this can work? What are the benefits to using this approach?

This is called a "parallel changeover" in the development world, and is often considered the best approach to take when you have an actively used product in the marketplace. If we were to have followed what others have done (max, wavefront->Maya, xsi) we would go dark for a long period of time, forcing users to wait years for the results. We do not view that approach as practical, given market conditions, and the fact that our customers have been very loyal to us. So, by using the parallel changeover model, we can make available new technologies earlier in the process, far earlier than they would have been with any other approach (as you will see at SIGGRAPH, where we have overhauled and upgraded some major core systems.)

What has been done to date? Does it seem to be working so far?

Not sure what I can talk about here :) [His smaily]

All of the code has received a variety of revisions. Some of these changes don't necessarily have a short-term meaning to the user base, though it all will in the mid-term. Re-organizing the code structure is making the development and debugging process more efficient and reliable.

The drawing and user interaction systems have already received significant upgrades. These upgrades offer more much more performance and interactivity than previous systems, and are based upon modern methods and drawing engines. If you can work within the system faster, you can produce better results, more quickly.

The modeling systems have received significant functional enhancements, and work is underway to improve workflows. Most of the modeling functions available in other products are now available in our modeling environment, and we have also added some that no one else has. We are also improving the SDK which will allow 3rd parties much more efficient access to core data structures, with far less waste in the process.

Some significant amount of modeling functions are now accessible inside of the Layout portion of LightWave, which will significantly improve workflow, and offer potentially new ways of working and animating within LightWave. This core change was a primary factor in crossing the threshold to the new series. Note that the selection system inside of Layout will not yet be as extensive as that found in modeler; however, we are doing an extensive revision of the selection process, which will affect both environments. This will be available in future versions of the application.

The rendering system is being re-worked from the ground up to take advantage of modern data structures and algorithms. This is one of the oldest pieces of code in the LightWave environment, and we are making dramatic changes to the core. Initial improvements, available soon, should result in a minimum of 2x increase in render speeds for certain types of shaders, etc. All portions of the rendering engine are going to benefit from this initial re-working of the core. Note that the memory footprint will likely increase; we need to increase precision within the system to offer more accurate shading results. However, as we go, we will be optimizing data structures, which should make our use of that memory far more efficient than it had been.

Our core goal is to always maintain a state of build-ability. This requires the engineering group to operate under the assumption that we may need to produce a build in very short order. Doing this allows for a certain discipline to be made in both our developmental practices as well as the choices that we make throughout the design and implementation process. That said, we are also removing any restrictions about "breaking" things, meaning that we need to move forward with our technologies. Doing so may cause older features or code assumptions to become invalid. As long as we have a solution that allows the user to benefit, and maintain his older assets as much as possible, that is allowed (and sometimes encouraged.)

Overall, things seem to be working very well. The response from the development group has been phenomenal, and our roadmap to the future looks very aggressive and innovative. As we add more to our staff, that roadmap becomes even more so. I am very excited about the upcoming release, as well as the foundations that we are laying for true innovation in the future.

:)

Kid-Mesh
12-18-2005, 02:23 AM
Hi Kid Mesh. I was surprised that you thought the previous posts were attacking the users of Lightwave.

I went back and re-read all the posts to see who was attacked. There are lots of comments for and against the product, but the only post I could find that mentions the users was "LW users welcome to 1998! :)". I think it's pretty mild. It's probably more a comment on the product than the users.

I don't think any of the posts on the thread have personally attacked other forum members. However, technology and products will always be debated. For and against.


I didnt say that the previous post's in this thread had anything to do with attacking the LW user base...that's been an on going thing. I wont even begin to start listing forums and IRC chat rooms where LW users are just roasted for being LW users.

The online CG community isnt that big to where people arent aware of this behavior, mindset and round robin jabs we endure. The point was that regardless of if "any" of the posts were attacking or not, it was beginning to take that form. Which as LW users we have unfortuneately become accustom far to often

Oh and the comment about Wings and Silo users not complaining....why would you even compare LW to those apps? What exactly were you trying to imply? ....please.:rolleyes:

It is what it is...

private
12-18-2005, 02:23 AM
LW users welcome to 1998! :)

Interesting. I found LW Modeler 1998 much more comfortable than modeling in Maya in 2005.

I think Lightwave has a decent price point and and I look forward to seeing more improvement with the software.

michaeli
12-18-2005, 02:39 AM
Oh and the comment about Wings and Silo users not complaining....why would you even compare LW to those apps? What exactly were you trying to imply? ....please.:rolleyes:
...

Agreed, Silo looks more advanced . :)

Cageman
12-18-2005, 03:02 AM
Agreed, Silo looks more advanced . :)

I've never used Silo, but I hear great things about it. No doubt it has features that LW modeler doesn't have. :)

On the other hand, Silo only has modeling capabilities, where LightWave has alot more to offer, such as rendering and animation. So, comparing both apps isn't really fair, is it?

Ollarin
12-18-2005, 03:34 AM
In the end what does it matter on which application has more features?

Personally, even though i've heard alot of people say Lightwave is missing some features. There's been some REALLY nice art done by Lightwave artists.

Artists > Software with alot of features.

*Runs away now*

Whelkn
12-18-2005, 04:24 AM
Cool Lightwave 9 looks great--- if you like it buy it if not get something else---

Capel
12-18-2005, 05:30 AM
Cool Lightwave 9 looks great--- if you like it buy it if not get something else---

hey Whelkn, that's pretty passive. i'm impressed! :)

Layer01
12-18-2005, 07:51 AM
Layer 01, that review I think says more about you and your skills than the software. If it is that bad, how do you explain all that nifty work that's been made with it? I gotta say I had pretty much the same experience trying max, it just wouldn't fit in my head. But it was more a question of just how both I and the program is put together in general, I didn't feel at home in it. My conclusion though was clearly not that "I will never use max", just didn't seem a logical place to start. I think it has bugs, as well, I noticed a few ...


oh thanks, i see the "lets get personal" mode has been entered, thanks for keeping it ubove the belt.
great things can be made with anything, i'm sure one could make mad 3d models with bryce, but why the hell would i want to??
no this is nothing to do with skills at all, and like i said i used it and made models with it. i just hated every step of the way...why? cause i've used infinitly better programs thats why. and its a horrible thing to feel like your going backwards, its like if you had to downgrade to an 800x600 view. i'm sure you could do stuff in that rez, but it'd be one big pain in the ass, but maybe you wouldn't see it that way.

anyway if newtek release an awesome update so much the better, contrary to what you may think i have nothing against them, and i would like very much for them to make a product i am interested in, so i'll wait and see.
just....chill out in the mean time. :shrug:

yog
12-18-2005, 09:30 AM
Oh and the comment about Wings and Silo users not complaining....why would you even compare LW to those apps? What exactly were you trying to imply? ....please.:rolleyes:Aw common. Trying to talk to a hardcore LW user is like trying to pull your own teeth at times. The waves of paranoia are almost over powering. :rolleyes:

The charge had been made that the rest of the 3D community were picking on LW users specifically for "elitest" reasons. The point I was trying to make was I felt this was BS because users of other apps further down the pecking order ladder didn't seem to have this particular chip on their shoulders.

trygve
12-18-2005, 10:59 AM
As far as being able to point out the shortcomings of a piece of software, I'm of the opinion that having earnt a crust with it for 8+ years (6 solely with LW, the last 2 with other apps), and still owning the current version, it allows me some opinion on what I do and don't like about the software. If that doesn't offend you of course ;)

I'm sure you are an adult, and that you have some (at least) basic social skills. Your comments in this thread are not constructive, and you know this very well. And since we are such a nerveous bunch in your eyes ("we" as "the lightwave fan boys") why do you do it? I'm sure you are well aware of the consequences, nowing so much about our psychology.

Oh, let me add, I don't think we are the problem. I really don't. :rolleyes:

Beamtracer
12-18-2005, 11:17 AM
On the previous page, 'habañero' from Norway has written an amazingly long and detailed list of features that he would like to see in Lightwave. In fact there's pages of it. It must have taken ages to write this list.

habañero, you should send your feature list off to Newtek. I think it would be very constructive for them. I agree with many of the points on it. :)

Nemoid
12-18-2005, 11:18 AM
Jeez this thread has become really huge.

there are some points i would make :

1) I think this thread was a way to simply signale there are some movies describing some new features in Lw 9.0 good or not, more modern sub patches and edge support were a long waited feature for Lw. these movies intend to show features, and maybe others will come showing more modern things. Users asked for some movie and simply Proton made them for the community.

2) the fact that Lw is jumping in 1998 now is good. at least now we have what others have since alot of time. new users coming from other apps will like this as well.

3) the modelling workflow in Lw is fine. sure. every app has its process on building things. an user could click with Lw or not. some other artist would like Maya or Max better. what's the problem.everyone can use what he likes more.

4) Lw is behind other big apps, in some areas because of its history (it actually was born like two apps joined together, and not as a single platform upon wich tools were added) and recent development, especially before the new team arrived.

So its plain obvious Newtek is resructuring it now with a gradual path to allow it to become more modern. in such an old structure if i would add for example paint tools i should at first rewrite some part of the core. there's no magic wand in this, but i think they're heading in the right direction. and making an hard job. i see Lw 9.0 as a starting point not a goal.
Lw will have to play catch up for sure. I personally don't see any prob with that.
That's why i welcome every progress Nt makes with Lw.

I'm personally always been for a rewrite of Lw, because i saw its weak points. Its structure has to be changed if NT wants Lw to become more modern.Lw 9.0 will be at least a step ahead.
however every software has weak points and workflow issues there will be forever useres which will complain and complain asking for more, for every software.

So, a Maya user should say Lw is not his preferred app to work with. A Lw user could say the opposite, and so on. in many cases this is subjective. a personal preference of the user. Its not that app X is crap and app Y is heaven.

That's all, folks !

Beamtracer
12-18-2005, 01:40 PM
You know what I think? It's better that people are discussing the software, whether they like it or not, than not discussing it at all.

The first post is for Newtek's promotional videos. Every time someone adds a comment to this thread it gets bumped up to the top of the list again. Therefore more people get to see the videos.

It would be sadder if nobody had anything to say or any interest in it, and the thread would just drift down and out of sight.

angel
12-18-2005, 01:59 PM
On the previous page, 'habañero' from Norway has written an amazingly long and detailed list of features that he would like to see in Lightwave. In fact there's pages of it. It must have taken ages to write this list.

habañero, you should send your feature list off to Newtek. I think it would be very constructive for them. I agree with many of the points on it. :)

you mean the list on page 3 in this thread or some other list? I'm not sure you are being sarcastic or not, sometimes it is hard to tell when reading stuff on the net... but you do know that's taken from the official LW9 feature list page right? it probably took him 30 seconds!:D

Cageman
12-18-2005, 02:07 PM
On the previous page, 'habañero' from Norway has written an amazingly long and detailed list of features that he would like to see in Lightwave. In fact there's pages of it. It must have taken ages to write this list.

habañero, you should send your feature list off to Newtek. I think it would be very constructive for them. I agree with many of the points on it. :)

I don't know if you are sarcastic or not, but the list is actually a preliminary feature list of LW9, not a wishlist. :) Sure, some of the features may not be implemented. There are other features and bugfixes that aren't on the list that may get implemented. :)

You can find it here: http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9featureprelim.php

EDIT: SNoWs... *LOOL*

Chewey
12-18-2005, 02:22 PM
So what is wrong with us, then Yog? And why do you keep on posting your ironic, non-constructive, little comments if we are so sensitive and fragile?

:rolleyes:

Yog's ok, just a bit of a bitter johnny one note.:rolleyes:
If you've been around here for a while you just learn to ignore the redundant postings.:cool:

DotPainter
12-18-2005, 02:23 PM
The only thing I can see that can be said to be offensive to some is the idea that Lightwave is inferior because it has bugs, doesn't have features supported in other apps or the workflow isn't as intuitive to some as others. All I will say is that if you are really only just pointing out areas where an app is weak and may not be as beneficial as another app in certain areas, then fine. However, if you are trying to portray said application as the worst piece of crap software or inferior software solely because of bugs, different workflow or lack of features, then I see it as a rant pure and simple.

Case in point:

1) Maya, I like the feature set, like the depth and complexity, hate the workflow, hate the way texturing works, hate the interface and I absolutely hate when it crashes, especially when using those features that other apps lack. So, would I call Maya an absolute piss poor example of a 3d app? No. I would say it is a deep tool, but has a unique workflow and requires serious time to really begin to understand how to use it properly and most of the really nifty features that people want only come in the highest price version.......

2) XSI, basically the same as Maya, with 2 exceptions. I reeeeealllly dont like the way bump mapping is implemented in XSI as well as displacement mapping and I dont like how most modelling operators are implemented via sliders as opposed to direct mouse manipulation (bevel, extrude, etc). On top of that, XSIs particle rendering and particle dynamics are not as deep as say Maya and there is no way to do skies with volumetric clouds (including plugins). Ohh, and like all other apps, I hate the way it crashes, when it does. XSI is not the worst 3d app ever because of its flaws, just not as good for some things as other apps. XSI is quite good in the animation department, I understand, but since I am not into animation that much, I cant speak on it.

3) 3ds Max, I like the depth of the feature set, however, I really dont like how much complexity is built into the interface, in terms of clutter. The modelling tools are good, but once again, I cant really get into the workflow: too many menus and options to remember for my liking, but hey almost everything you may want is in there.... somewhere. Surfacing system is deep and powerful, however takes a little getting used to in practice.
Excellent lighting options, including IES lights, radiosity caching and radiosity previews. Very nice support for ArchVis, including tie ins to many cad packages and built in architectural primitive types and surfacing options. Particle flow is a great tool for particle dynamics. However, if you want to add volumetrics to those particles, you have to buy a plugin. Has a large collection of plugins for almost everything, but that can really raise the price for the base app, which is already about $4000. I also dont like the continuing yearly subscription cost, which really can be a pain for someone on a budget. Like all other apps, it crashes and for some that seems to happen a lot.

4) Modo, nice modelling only application (for now). Has some features that are sweet (uvunwrapping) but also lacks some other features that I think should be in its modelling toolset. Can be very unstable, depending on your system configuration(H/W).

5. Lightwave, has a pretty decent workflow that is straight forward and not too jumbled. Animation capabilities are lacking by many accounts, but I am not an animator so I cant really comment. Modelling and rendering are separated into different applications, which can be a plus or minus depending on the user. Modelling has a nice subpatching algorithm, but doesnt support ngons. Lacks edges (right now) and some of the modelling operations generate a lot of unecessary extra points and polygons that require sometimes frequent geometry clean up. However, with all that, it is a pretty straight foward sub-d modeller, with some decent tools, even though they can be cleaned up a bit.
Rendering is a mixed bag in that rendering is slow, especially with radiosity, reallly slow compared to many other apps and doesnt have the options for tweaking radiosity settings found in other apps (even though that level of tweaking CAN be a pain, see Mental Ray, as an example). Surface editor is good, but does not have the level of flexibility that can be found in node based editors. Most light types missing things like soft shadows, but has decent volumetric light system. Has volumetrics and a sky/volumetric cloud system as well as a full particle dynamics system and voxels. Features unlimited rendernodes and is priced below $1000. Hate when it crashes, just like everything else.

No one application has yet to become a be all and end all package into itself. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses and each has a workflow that will either appeal to a user or turn them off. With the new pricing structure of most packages, most are more available to the average user and therefore, there is less reason for anyone who wants to get into 3d not to be able to get familiar with the intricacies of at least 2 main apps and 1 alternate, specialized app, if they are serious.

For Lightwave 9, I hope it comes out soon and look forward to the improvements. One thing I like, that other apps DONT seem to have, is the new advanced open gl viewport option, other than maybe 3ds Max. In XSI, you have to use special direct x 9 shaders, which lightwave doesnt have, but you cant use direct x 9 in xsi viewports for built in xsi shaders or lights. In Maya, you have to use IPR in order to get advanced open gl output in viewports. Therefore, just being able to turn off the display of advanced opengl in a vieport and see a good preview of the render output is a nice feature.

Cageman
12-18-2005, 02:35 PM
cause i've used infinitly better programs thats why. and its a horrible thing to feel like your going backwards, its like if you had to downgrade to an 800x600 view. i'm sure you could do stuff in that rez, but it'd be one big pain in the ass, but maybe you wouldn't see it that way.

Are you stating this as a FACT or is it your your personal opinion? :) The reason I ask is because you come off as you are stating facts here, which may not be your intention?

I would also like to hear what you think could improve LightWave modeler and what tools that just didn't work for you. There are clearly things that LightWave users are missing that we don't know we are missing. :)

I'm just asking you to be constructive, thats all.. :)


anyway if newtek release an awesome update so much the better, contrary to what you may think i have nothing against them, and i would like very much for them to make a product i am interested in, so i'll wait and see.
just....chill out in the mean time. :shrug:

If you didn't like modelers workflow now, you will probably never like it. But hey, you've found your workflow with SILO and Messiah. :wavey: No need for you to go into LightWave, right?

Cageman
12-18-2005, 02:44 PM
DotPainter: Great post and great attitude! :)

RobertoOrtiz
12-18-2005, 03:05 PM
First Guys thanks for posting your opinions in a very civilized way.
All the points have been posted in a very clear way.
MY opinion....

Being a coder myself, I can understand WHY a rewrite is so hard, and why it takes so long.
By doing a stage based approach I think New Tek is on the right path.



-R

Paul-Angelo
12-18-2005, 03:31 PM
Personally I am not too worried about the release of the current videos. The most important point of LW development is the fact that the core is being rewritten. The whole problem up to this point is the fact that the SDK doesn't always play well with 3rd party plugin developers. That alone keeps a bunch of sweet plugs from being ported over to LW. Hopefully this rewrite will open up the SDK so it can be taken in a positive direction, I think LW has a bright future.

Emmanuel
12-18-2005, 04:14 PM
I guess I am with NT for yet more moths.
3D software leads always to heated, emotional debates, I agree that discussion is healthy and entertaining.The rate of people who have been convinced to use other apps during a discussion is probably pretty low.
Its like traditional media.Some people only use oils, other only acrylics, others only gouaches.
Vallejo does great work with oils, Alex Ross works marvels (pun intended) with watercolours, Drew Struzan is a hero with pencils...so what ?
They all tried different methods and found "their thing".
3D is the same, since XSI Fnd, everyone has access to Maya, XSI, LW, Max, C4D, if people prefer a certain tool despite its flaws, then so be it, we don't want to be clones, do we, all using just one tool ?
I know that other packages are better in some ways, but do I need that power ?
Do I need another workflow ?
People create photorealistic artworks with a pencil, others with oils, others with Real3D !
LightWave does its thing, its far from going under, I am happy with it, I do my thing.
Do what You like, and if You want to complain, offer ideas instead of just beeing destructive.

Cosmo
12-18-2005, 04:47 PM
I don't understand why everyone is so negative about an upgrade which will make Lightwave better......

Every package has it's pros and cons..........

fozz
12-18-2005, 05:14 PM
Personally I'm upset with LW's upgrades the last few years because almost none of new the features have done much to help me with my work. I like LW, I want to continue using LW, but in the same time I hate it because NewTek is making it hard for me to stay with it. Sure, it's the artist and not the software, but if I'm gonna pay for an upgrade, I want something useful for me, and so far I haven't seen it. Those new LW9 videos are ridiculous as far as I'm concerned...

bigbad
12-18-2005, 05:34 PM
Personally .........but if I'm gonna pay for an upgrade, I want something useful for me, and so far I haven't seen it. Those new LW9 videos are ridiculous as far as I'm concerned...

Exactly what I was thinking. It should be a patch for the LightWave 8 users. Atleast for those simple features.

Emmanuel
12-18-2005, 05:59 PM
Jeeeez, folks, that were just the first 6 videos, there's more to come, and there WILL be more than that in 9 of course.
Heck, I wasn't too fascinated with CCTV, don't see any use for me.
But edges and ngons made me happy.

Guess what users of much more expensive apps think when they see that 50% of their daily work is done with free or commercial plugins depite they paid 2000 or more bucks for their app ?
Its not like Max or Maya always had their cool tools, either they have been integrated third party tools or they had to be developed.
Modeling with SDS in Max was pain back in those days when LW already Metanurbs.
Rendering in Maya was pain before Mental Ray.
XSI 1.0 didn't even ship with decent modeling tools.
C4D didn't have radiosity when we were already baking it in LW6.

Its a brand new LW9 with a lot of obvious and less obvious (read: architectural) additions.
And LW will never be Max, Maya or XSI, its LW, if You are looking for something radically new or different, choose one of the other packages.Modo looks very innovative and fresh, for example.
I am looking forward to all the new improvements in LW9, and of course, my personal expsectations won't be met or surpassed, like before, so I keep on asking for features for LW 10 :)
Until then, I work with what I have.

Lyr
12-18-2005, 06:23 PM
I don't understand why everyone is so negative about an upgrade which will make Lightwave better......

Every package has it's pros and cons..........


Alot of it depends on your perspective. In the mid 90's LW was hads down one of the best and for alot of CG artists the best app around. LW had a feature list that rivaled poweranimator and softimage3d at a fraction of the price and on an easily accessible hardware platform. It was a very respected package, and rightfully so. But the market has changed and LW's competitors now run on the same accessable hardware and at a comporable price and offer features not found in LW. Basically a complete reversal of what it used to be like. I'd really love to see LW regain it's former glory, I'd love to have the feature set of Maya Unlimited and XSI Advanced at the LW price point. I just don't know that it is possible anymore.

Don't get me wrong LW is still a good package. It is production ready (obviously). It just hasn't maintained it's place in the market.

Stevan
12-18-2005, 07:23 PM
True!
Something new is actualy historical monument of other 3d apps! :)

richcz3
12-18-2005, 11:10 PM
People who feel so strongly against Lightwave 9's features may have their reasons. But at some point these people just have to move along and get on with other "Apps" already. I know I just about did the same without all the rhetoric. I simply looked at Maya and XSI just before LW8's release. After the cost of to own/upgrade Maya and market share for XSI were run through the wringer, I stayed with LW8 and I don't regret it.

I am sure that there are people who are buying LW9 that have been disenchanted since LW6 Nothing is going to change them or their outlooks for 9 or later. Irony is, sometimes it's very good to have the squeeky wheels around pointing out the short comings. They'll be a motivational voice up and around through LW12's release.

WeirdoStudio
12-18-2005, 11:19 PM
Oh boy here we go again with another bag of nothing. Glad they got edges but i see nothing special to make me really want to stay with this app. Come on Newtek get with the program. Maybe with Lightwave 6000 we might catch up with the big boys.

DotPainter
12-19-2005, 12:33 AM
I just find it funny when people shout how other apps are so big and bad, but actually are only jumping ship for maybe a handful of features. For example, would I go to XSI just because of edges? No. Just because an app has tons of new features and gizmos does not necessarily butter my bread or make my tea in the morning. It is all about what you need to get the job done at hand, pure and simple. If I don't do animation, then why the heck would I jump up and down about Gator..... duh "well its a big feature so it must be cool that I use THAT application". Or even though I may not like LWs surfacing system does not mean I like XSIs any BETTER even if it is deeper. Even though it produces good renders, I actually think that the nodal system in XSI and the Mental Ray paradigm are really overkill in many ways and make things a little overly complex. So I am not gonna sit here and jump up and down about XSIs or Mayas features unless I REALLY need that particular feature in my day to day work. If buying into a particular app for 1 or 2 features that I need also gives me 2 or 3 that I dont or removes 2 or 3 features that I already have and like, then it is not something I am going to do based on a whim and I am not going to sing praises when there ARE things that I don't like about the app. So in my mind the best scenario would be for an upgrade to address the deficiencies and add the features that I want, so I dont have to take on another app and work around a new set of quirks or deficiencies.

richcz3
12-19-2005, 02:12 AM
A big dividing line between the Pros and Cons of Lightwave will be what each person/company does with it.

It filters down to the production, required output, deadlines, and cost effect. If people here can afford to pay for extra licenses for rendering on multiple PC's, more power to them. Those projects must really be paying big to pay for that upgrade overhead. If your a hobbiest or work on one PC, that notion is a dead issue and so those people will focus on lack of or lateness of features.

NewTek has its work cut out for them. I do think they are pulling back a bit and going for a broader market base. The air is thin at the top for high end apps, which is why the sale of Maya to Autodesk was less a surprise. It will be interesting to see how XSI positions itself in the coming years. Based on it's market share, for now Lightwave is just the better if not safest bet.

icedeyes
12-19-2005, 06:45 AM
I have been with lw since v 5.5 i think... i really loved the software and found it very very fast compared to max versions of the same time... BUT i have to say that the changes i have seen from 6.5 to 8.3 are not that impressive... Other than that, i still think that the modeller and renderer are some of the best in the market (even though sometimes i have gone to a fellow worker's xsi seat to get some work done :D)... Maybe its because i am so used to them that i have their logic built into my brain or something... I really hope that Newtek will make this upgrade great since i have been wanting to upgrade the version i have at home for a long time (i still have a 5.6 version at home but we have 8.3 at work)... I am staying positive until proven otherwise and so should you guys... Hell... In Newtek we trusted all these years... i wont back down now...

Dennik
12-19-2005, 01:49 PM
If you have passion for what you do, Not having feature x doesn't stop you from doing art, you just find a way to do it and get on with your life. Lightwave is not your religion. Its a tool. Again ITS A TOOL. At the end all it matters is what you make out of it. If some people feel inferior to others that use software X which is more widely acceptable, thats just a mental problem. I've seen so many artists that can do beautifull artwork with standard brushes and paints, that i would never do with the most expensive and feature rich software out there. Thank God i stick with animation where i can do a bit better. And talking about animation.... I can tell you that it doesn't make any difference whatever app i use. As long as it has curves to tweak thats all that matters to me. Its JUST A TOOL.
If you have imagination, use whatever medium necessary to bring it to life.
Just think of a nice image, or a nice story, sit in your ass and do it! Darn! I honestly haven't seen a single great artist out there, complaining about the tools they use. And some of them use extremely limited sources to make their art, which is amazing. Just use these people as examples and stop whinning. Geez! :D

Stevan
12-19-2005, 06:45 PM
The point is that we are just talking doing nothing!That make us total idiots ,complaining about things we rarely use, (including me).But what make me nervous is that NT is sometimes boast of nothing!

Lyr
12-19-2005, 07:43 PM
I honestly haven't seen a single great artist out there, complaining about the tools they use. And some of them use extremely limited sources to make their art, which is amazing. Just use these people as examples and stop whinning. Geez! :D

You have to be kidding me. I don't know a single artist that knows thier tools and doesn't have complaints regarding thier tools. The only time I haven't had a complaint about a tool was when I was learning to use it, once you've learned it you start hitting the limitations.

Beamtracer
12-19-2005, 09:15 PM
I've seen so many artists that can do beautifull artwork with standard brushes and paints
The analogy that an artist can do great work with mediocre tools doesn't always apply to 3D work.

Some people earn their living with 3D, so the features of the software they use are critical.

You may be doing a job that requires animated points or animated surface attributes. If your software can't do it, there aren't always work-arounds. When there are work-arounds they may take you 5 times as long to get the job completed. That's unacceptable.

Or maybe you job requires that you can output the animation in a variety of modern image formats (eg 16bpc TIFF). If your software can't do it, then you have to add an extra unnecessary pass through a compositing program, which will slow you down.

If your software isn't optimized for modern computer processors, or doesn't take full advantage of multiple processors, then once again it will slow you down.

For many people it's not just about art.

richcz3
12-19-2005, 11:40 PM
Beamtracer - There will always be problem specific issues with any 3D app. Yes some people do a make a living using 3D apps. Being a generalist helps one work the ins and outs of a program better than someone who is specialized. I think LW with its short comings can still offer enough to tackle jobs without nailing the client.

Look at all the commercial modeling apps that are flourishing right now. Silo, ZBrush, and Modo. These wouldn't exist if all the other 3D apps did their jobs out of the box. There is and always will be need for improvement in all 3D applications. All Dennik pointed it is that creative abilities are not tied to technical limitations.

Lightwave interface is long in the tooth, but a user can still bring a project from concept to completion out of the box. Throw in it's cost of ownership/cost effectiveness against other apps, and it still holds a margin all its own. LW9 looks like a key step forward for future builds.

JJ3d
12-20-2005, 04:34 AM
my point of view
the modeler edges and subdivision must be done some time ago.. but is fine.. correct.

in LW9 I just hope to see a real node surface editor and a good open render to SSS and Sub Polygon dispace plugins.

And some good tools for re use character rigs.

I´m afraid of that this lw upgrade make me change to another software...:shrug:

Nemoid
12-20-2005, 06:33 AM
there are alot of improvements and features that should be showed about Lw 9.0. only new vids aren't there yet.

incidentally, from some images taken from siggraph it was clearly showed the UI is more customizable in its aspects (buttons for example) than you may expect.

node based texturing will make its appearence too. i dunno about sub pixel displacement and a tighter connection with ZBrush.

I understand that the probs of Lw come from its development in time in the past, but we should judge the new release when its out there.

yog
12-20-2005, 09:13 AM
I think it is interesting how marketing works.
It doesn't matter how much NT say LW-9 is going to be great, it doesn't matter how much NT marketing say we will be impressed, and it doesn't matter how many videos on producing custom nulls they produce, so far for me it's just been Blah, Blah, Blah, heard it all before.

On the other hand Dan Ablan has just anounced he will be writing another "Inside LW" book.
Previously Dan had said he wouldn't be writing another, and the next version of LW would have to be something special to even tempt him. Well acording to Dan it is something special, and he will be writing another.

This is the first encouraging report I have heard for the next release of LW.
Perhaps the old dog isn't ready to roll over and play dead just yet. ;)

Ed Bittner
12-20-2005, 12:03 PM
If LW9 is gonna be that revolutionary, we're gonna need Dan to dig-in and explain the feature set. Never have been able to rely on Newtek to show how its own software works. Thank goodness for guys like Dan, Larry, Dave, and all the other LW guru's out there to show us the ins and outs of Lightwave.

E.

Dennik
12-20-2005, 02:05 PM
If LW9 is gonna be that revolutionary, we're gonna need Dan to dig-in and explain the feature set. Never have been able to rely on Newtek to show how its own software works. Thank goodness for guys like Dan, Larry, Dave, and all the other LW guru's out there to show us the ins and outs of Lightwave.

E.

Dan or Larry or Dave are not super geniouses (well ok in a way they are) just because they dig in and get the info plain and simple for you. I think everyone can do the digging, it just takes some experience to feel comfortable with new features from the moment they come out.
If you are new to the software, there are so many things to learn, so many things that don't make any sense, and so many explanations you need to read in order to understand. But if you have some years into production, then you've done your own digging because you had to, and not only you don't have problems understanding new features, you even know how they work before they come out, and you EXPECT them to work in a certain way.

Cageman
12-20-2005, 02:12 PM
If LW9 is gonna be that revolutionary, we're gonna need Dan to dig-in and explain the feature set. Never have been able to rely on Newtek to show how its own software works. Thank goodness for guys like Dan, Larry, Dave, and all the other LW guru's out there to show us the ins and outs of Lightwave.

E.

This is a good point and I have to agree. NT doesn't do a great job explaining the tools. A great deal of the videotutorials on LW7 and 8 that you can download from NTs page are done by people outside of NewTek. However, Proton has done a great job producing short videotutorials on things you can do in LW that I didn't know about. I really hope he will continue to produce those small tuts, because they have clearly enhanced my understanding of LW.

Eyemaze
12-20-2005, 04:13 PM
We have been betatesting 9 here at work.
I haven't had time to try it yet though.

richcz3
12-20-2005, 10:53 PM
We have been betatesting 9 here at work.
I haven't had time to try it yet though.
Any chance you can Q&A the person(s) who are :)

leigh
12-20-2005, 11:27 PM
Please don't post any NDA-covered information on this forum. I am sure NewTek wouldn't appreciate it - in fact, I doubt you're even supposed to be telling anyone you're on the beta.

colkai
12-21-2005, 08:42 AM
Please don't post any NDA-covered information on this forum. I am sure NewTek wouldn't appreciate it - in fact, I doubt you're even supposed to be telling anyone you're on the beta.
Good catch Leigh, wondered about that myself.

Dennik
12-21-2005, 01:45 PM
Good catch Leigh, wondered about that myself.

Well she wouldn't be an ubiquitous administrator if she didn't isn't it? :)
(btw i had to search the word "Ubiquitous" in the dictionary to find what it means)

freakmoomin
12-21-2005, 01:49 PM
im sure ive missed it, im sure i have!

has anyone seen anything about a PROPER UNDO?!?

Qslugs
12-22-2005, 01:33 AM
Sad to hear you feel that way, but if you found other software to be more usefull to you, then thats ok with me! :) I'm a bit curious though, in what direction would you like LW to go?

I don't really see whats wrong with the current roadmap...


Well heres the thing, I have been a LW user since it came to the PC. That was back in 1996 at version 4. I used Lightwave for years. You can say that Lightwave paid my bills. In 2000 I was laid off the last job I was using LW fulltime. At that point I switched over to MAX at the new job and got to see what the max thing was all about. I left that job after 7 or 8 months and went to work for another game company doing nothing but character animation all day long. While the company used Lightwave for modeleing of characters and enviorments, there was no way that they were going to use Lightwave for animation. We used Maya for animation. And I can say after using Maya from then till now, along with max (currently working a job using max for character animation) Motionbuilder (for mocap processing), Messiah (owend that one for awhile, got to realize what expressions are for) and a few other programs, there is no way in hell I will even attempt using Lightwave for character animation until there is some major rewrite of layout.

Actually let me rephraze that. During the summer I tried doing a small character job in straight Lightwave. Lightwave crashed on me numerous times trying to Rig the character. I threw in the towel and switched back to Maya after about 4 hours. I used Lw for modeling and rendering, I did the animation in Maya and transfered the motion via the Maya2LW plugins. Perfect solution.

Another instance of when I tried using LW for mocap character animation, I had the opportunity to use LW for a freelance game job. The job was to cleanup and merge some mocap together in Lightwave, and give them a few scene files as the end products. I really did try to get Lw to work. Couldnt do it in a timely manner. I could have blown through something Like that in Maya or max, trying to do it in LW, I wanted to cry. I ended up overbidding in the end, based upon how long it would have taken me to do from my tests. I was actually relieved to see that job go away.

Anyway... So what would I like to see in Lightwave?

If Newtek wants my upgrade dollars, dollars I have freely given up every paid upgrade from 4.0 through 8.x they need to rework their animation tools.

As someone jokingly said earlier, welcome to 1998. Well the funny thing is this isnt 1998. Newtek has had plenty of time to see how the competition handles various tasks. Some of the time they come out with a tool that is awesome, other times its just a half baked solution, void of any real world function other than taking up lines on a feature page.

Lw is a great software package. Its just not great for everything. Modelling, rendering, texturing I dont have a single complaint. Hell, Id say that I could care less about all that. It works fine and I can get stuff done quick. However after seeing how animation tasks are handled in other packages, I know what the grass looks like on the other side of the fence, its much greener. I will go as far as saying that this side of the fence needs miracle grow.

Another thing that bugs me while I am on the topic. When I animate in Maya and max, I do about 40 percent of my work strictly in the graph editor/dope sheet. Even working with non character content, I find it is impossible to work this way in LW. The graph editor is slow, clunky and unforgiving.

Oh one last thing, true instancing. I might have almost gotten sued, due to the fact that LW couldnt render some medical freelance work I did a while back. Since Lightwave has no true instancing, there was no real way other than to clutter up a scene with a gazillion copys of a basic shaded model of a brain cell. It was taking 9 min a pass on my machine here, I had to render out medium aa at about 1500 frames. Wasnt going to happen. While I did find a creative solution, I wasnt able to provide the client with the quality they had already singed off on. That job alone almost made me throw in the LW towel. That was the first time I can say that LW truely failed me.

So does that give any idea as to where/how I would like to see LW developed? And yes, I know they have to start somewhere. What I am saying is that I have only so many dollars to work with for my upgrades. I am currently looking at modo, and also the cheap XSI for my home use. And the truth of the matter is that Lightwave isnt in the same position they were several years ago, while Lw is cheap now, so are a lot of other programs.

R10k
12-22-2005, 02:47 AM
That was the first time I can say that LW truely failed me.

It wasn't Lightwave that failed you. You failed by taking on a job with the wrong set of tools. I don't mean to sound insulting, but I hardly think that's Lightwave's fault. If a client signs off on something, it's best to have the tools (or the know-how) in place ready to fulfil that agreement. There's no such thing as a "Hey, we'll take on your job because we can do anything." application.

In my mind, Lightwave hasn't failed anyone if it's missing a feature. You paid for the features you got, and that's that. If the features don't work as advertised, that's something else altogether, but...

Signal2Noise
12-22-2005, 03:51 AM
According to NewTek's latest newsletter (Vol.2, No. 11) [9] will now not be released until "early 2006". Apparently NT still need to work out a few issues prior to going public.

The good news is that they still haven't been bought out by anyone! :D

1001 JediNights
12-22-2005, 04:21 AM
The good news is that they still haven't been bought out by anyone! :D

I hate to add to the negative tone of this thread, but do you think there is a reason for this?

RobertoOrtiz
12-22-2005, 04:37 AM
People, keep it light.

-R

Signal2Noise
12-22-2005, 04:40 AM
I hate to add to the negative tone of this thread, but do you think there is a reason for this?

Yes I do.

With all the recent news of take-overs and such I think I was being rather optimistic. And I'm a registered LightWave user so coming from me this is light-hearted attempt at humor. And with all the other posters with their panties in a knot over the future of LW they could use some of that humor. Is there a reason for all the other banter going on with this? And then there's the several rum & eggnogs I've been imbibing...:argh:

Problems With Discussions On The Internet #263: Written sarcasm is often lost on the reader. :)

Cageman
12-22-2005, 05:29 AM
Actually let me rephraze that. During the summer I tried doing a small character job in straight Lightwave. Lightwave crashed on me numerous times trying to Rig the character. I threw in the towel and switched back to Maya after about 4 hours. I used Lw for modeling and rendering, I did the animation in Maya and transfered the motion via the Maya2LW plugins. Perfect solution.



Hey man! That was very interesting to read. Alot of constructive critics based on real world examples. Nice! :thumbsup:

I have to agree with you on the rigging and animation. I have used Maya to rig and animate simply because it's easier and faster.

I find the Graph Editor in LW fast and easy to use, to me, it is more pleasant to use than the one in Maya. Maybe this is something that is related to personal taste, I don't know?


Oh one last thing, true instancing. I might have almost gotten sued, due to the fact that LW couldnt render some medical freelance work I did a while back. Since Lightwave has no true instancing, there was no real way other than to clutter up a scene with a gazillion copys of a basic shaded model of a brain cell. It was taking 9 min a pass on my machine here, I had to render out medium aa at about 1500 frames. Wasnt going to happen. While I did find a creative solution, I wasnt able to provide the client with the quality they had already singed off on. That job alone almost made me throw in the LW towel. That was the first time I can say that LW truely failed me.


Did you use HD-Instance on this project? If not, then I must say that the lack of research about the software you used to tackle this problem has to be blamed, rather than the software itself.

That said, Instancing should be standard in every 3D package nowdays, and it doesn't look like LW9 will add that. :sad:


So does that give any idea as to where/how I would like to see LW developed?


Absolutely! :) Very informative posts about your experiences!


And yes, I know they have to start somewhere. What I am saying is that I have only so many dollars to work with for my upgrades. I am currently looking at modo, and also the cheap XSI for my home use. And the truth of the matter is that Lightwave isnt in the same position they were several years ago, while Lw is cheap now, so are a lot of other programs.

In the preliminary featurelist of LightWave v9.0 I found this:

• Improved Bone/Joint Drawing Speed
• Improved Bone/Joint Evaluation Speed
• Improved Bone Creation Process
• Improved Rotation Precision
• Inclusion of Relativity 2 Expression System

and this:

• Much faster UI performance
• Preview Lighting scenarios within the UI
• Less need for preview renders
• Hardware shading of materials and textures
• Hardware shading of procedural textures
• New Drawing modes and options

LW9 adresses the things I find annoying; slow UI (in some cases) and slow updates of the mesh deformed by bones. We just have to wait and see if it does the job or not. I bought into LW8 with the free update to v9, but I can understand if you want to wait and see.

Qslugs
12-23-2005, 03:22 AM
Ok, fine point taken. Im only slightly insulted. You have no idea what I have or havent done. Im sorry if my comments come off as a bit harsh towards LW, I know there are plenty of you that use this software and think its golden. This is years in the making with me + watching a video on custom nulls.

Let me ask you this R10k, have you run across every possible situation using Lightwave?

Who would think that 2.5 millions standard non subd'd polys, with no texture's, and no deformation would take 9 min a pass to render. Even with 1.5 gigs of ram. The only thing that scene had going on was camera motion, fog, single sided objects, object transparency and motion blur. All the raytracing was turned off, and I was only using distant lights. Funny thing is that I tried rendering what I could in the previous version of LW, it actually rendered quicker. Also, the newer version I was stuck in, was touted as being a substantially faster renderer than the previous. Further compounding the problem was that I couldnt use that version, somewhere else in my pipeline was a plugin that only worked in the version that had the long render times.

Also, I forgot to mention throwing that much data around in Lw makes the framrate nonexistent. Ironically, again, the previous version of the software handled the open gl stuff better. I went from having like 1 or less than 1 fps to having like somewhere around 8fps.

I had actually looked into the HD instance plugin. I wasnt sure at the time that it would work for what I needed it for. Plus there wasnt much time to go off on a tanget leanring new software either, nor was there extra money at the time. I mainly brought that íssue up because that was a feature I asked for back in the days of version 5.6. I had my first taste of Max at the time, and found instancing an incredibly useful feature. In the end, I ended up using various compositing tricks to get the shot nailed.

If instancing was my only problem with LW, I wouldnt have initially chimed in.

I just deleted another huge rant. Airing out my complaints wont do anyone any good here. I will be forewarding my rant directly to Newtek. Maybe they will find it useful.


It wasn't Lightwave that failed you. You failed by taking on a job with the wrong set of tools. I don't mean to sound insulting, but I hardly think that's Lightwave's fault. If a client signs off on something, it's best to have the tools (or the know-how) in place ready to fulfil that agreement. There's no such thing as a "Hey, we'll take on your job because we can do anything." application.

In my mind, Lightwave hasn't failed anyone if it's missing a feature. You paid for the features you got, and that's that. If the features don't work as advertised, that's something else altogether, but...

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12-23-2005, 03:22 AM
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