phantomworkshop
12-11-2005, 02:15 AM
Just a question that I pondered while browsing around the Forums here... Let's see where Modo is really being used nowadays ;)
View Full Version : Modo: what studios use it?
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Phil Lawson
12-11-2005, 09:24 AM
Digital Domain
Spinoff Studios
Naked Sky Entertainment
The Embassy
Studio ArtFX
Eden FX
to name just a few. This info is from the press release section at www.luxology.com.
From the forums/website, we know that DNA Productions use it and ID Software.
There are many more. :)
Cheers.
Spinoff Studios
Naked Sky Entertainment
The Embassy
Studio ArtFX
Eden FX
to name just a few. This info is from the press release section at www.luxology.com.
From the forums/website, we know that DNA Productions use it and ID Software.
There are many more. :)
Cheers.
phantomworkshop
12-11-2005, 06:30 PM
Digital Domain
Spinoff Studios
Naked Sky Entertainment
The Embassy
Studio ArtFX
Eden FX
to name just a few. This info is from the press release section at www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com).
From the forums/website, we know that DNA Productions use it and ID Software.
There are many more. :)
Cheers.
That is awesome Phil, I'm definately going to get more in depth with this program now. :) Do you work anywhere, or just hobbyist for now?
Spinoff Studios
Naked Sky Entertainment
The Embassy
Studio ArtFX
Eden FX
to name just a few. This info is from the press release section at www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com).
From the forums/website, we know that DNA Productions use it and ID Software.
There are many more. :)
Cheers.
That is awesome Phil, I'm definately going to get more in depth with this program now. :) Do you work anywhere, or just hobbyist for now?
Phil Lawson
12-11-2005, 06:42 PM
I just left my job as an IT tech to start University in Multimedia and Design...so hopefully at the end I will get into somewhere like the companies above. :)
Yourself?
Yourself?
phantomworkshop
12-11-2005, 06:59 PM
I'm just a hobbyist at the moment, hoping to work in feature films someday in the near future. I'm teaching myself with DVDs, Books, etc.. but it's hard, I was never all that great at teaching myself something. Also, I'm still figuring out which application to stick with and move on from there. Up until now, I've been using Maya.. for maybe a month or 2, maybe even a little more... I forget, and I've learned it pretty good as far as workflows and toolsets, but I see such amazing creatures and characters created with it, and I'm not able to do that.. I also think it has to do with Maya's poor excuse for sub-d modeling.
Sonk
12-11-2005, 10:31 PM
I'm just a hobbyist at the moment, hoping to work in feature films someday in the near future. I'm teaching myself with DVDs, Books, etc.. but it's hard, I was never all that great at teaching myself something. Also, I'm still figuring out which application to stick with and move on from there. Up until now, I've been using Maya.. for maybe a month or 2, maybe even a little more... I forget, and I've learned it pretty good as far as workflows and toolsets, but I see such amazing creatures and characters created with it, and I'm not able to do that.. I also think it has to do with Maya's poor excuse for sub-d modeling.
Good choice, IMHO going to a university to learn 3D modeling is a waste of your hard earn money. :) Theres tons of resource online and as you mention DVD/books.
If you want to get into the Film industry, you should at least figure out what software they use at a specific production house. likewise with the gaming industry..
Good choice, IMHO going to a university to learn 3D modeling is a waste of your hard earn money. :) Theres tons of resource online and as you mention DVD/books.
If you want to get into the Film industry, you should at least figure out what software they use at a specific production house. likewise with the gaming industry..
phantomworkshop
12-11-2005, 11:20 PM
Good choice, IMHO going to a university to learn 3D modeling is a waste of your hard earn money. :) Theres tons of resource online and as you mention DVD/books.
If you want to get into the Film industry, you should at least figure out what software they use at a specific production house. likewise with the gaming industry..
Hmm, what about you Sonk? What's your deal? :)
If you want to get into the Film industry, you should at least figure out what software they use at a specific production house. likewise with the gaming industry..
Hmm, what about you Sonk? What's your deal? :)
Sonk
12-12-2005, 01:25 AM
Hmm, what about you Sonk? What's your deal? :)
If i told you, i would have to kill you.. ;)
Well, i learnt what i know of 3D modeling from only online resource...been at it for 2 years after quiting my Autocad job. During those 2 years, i learn modeling, and rigging(and everything in between). IMO, if your going to get a career, it should be sometime you enjoy doing, for me its the game art and the game industry. Im in the process of putting my demo reel together, should be done sometime next year(Q1-Q2).For the reel, im going to do rigging, and animation in XSI, modeling in Modo, high res sculpting in Zbrush, rendering in Mental Ray or Maxwell renderer.
I've use learned MANY 3D software, but Modo is my prefer choice for many reason(which i wont go into).
PS. i still think 3D art school are a waste of money! Its a good and safe road your taking, i been there.
If i told you, i would have to kill you.. ;)
Well, i learnt what i know of 3D modeling from only online resource...been at it for 2 years after quiting my Autocad job. During those 2 years, i learn modeling, and rigging(and everything in between). IMO, if your going to get a career, it should be sometime you enjoy doing, for me its the game art and the game industry. Im in the process of putting my demo reel together, should be done sometime next year(Q1-Q2).For the reel, im going to do rigging, and animation in XSI, modeling in Modo, high res sculpting in Zbrush, rendering in Mental Ray or Maxwell renderer.
I've use learned MANY 3D software, but Modo is my prefer choice for many reason(which i wont go into).
PS. i still think 3D art school are a waste of money! Its a good and safe road your taking, i been there.
phantomworkshop
12-12-2005, 01:31 AM
If i told you, i would have to kill you.. ;)
Well, pretty much learn what i know of 3D modeling from online resource...been at it for 2 years after quiting my Autocad job. During those 2 years, i learn modeling, and rigging(and everything in between). IMO, if your going to get a career, it should be sometime you enjoy doing, for me its the game art and the game industry. Im in the process of putting my demo reel together, should be done sometime next year(Q1-Q2).
PS. i still think 3D art school are a waste of money!
That's awesome, have a website or anything that I/we can check out your work?
Well, pretty much learn what i know of 3D modeling from online resource...been at it for 2 years after quiting my Autocad job. During those 2 years, i learn modeling, and rigging(and everything in between). IMO, if your going to get a career, it should be sometime you enjoy doing, for me its the game art and the game industry. Im in the process of putting my demo reel together, should be done sometime next year(Q1-Q2).
PS. i still think 3D art school are a waste of money!
That's awesome, have a website or anything that I/we can check out your work?
DMack
12-12-2005, 08:51 AM
I just left my job as an IT tech to start University in Multimedia and Design...so hopefully at the end I will get into somewhere like the companies above. :)
Yourself?
Phil,
Have you thought about applying for the Animation Mentor course?
David
PS Where are you in the UK?
Yourself?
Phil,
Have you thought about applying for the Animation Mentor course?
David
PS Where are you in the UK?
Phil Lawson
12-12-2005, 10:04 AM
Phil,
Have you thought about applying for the Animation Mentor course?
David
PS Where are you in the UK?
I'm in N.Ireland so there isnt too much to choose from. :) Yes, I would agree that Uni is a waste of time in that you can learn alot more by yourself...but with work, I didnt have much time at all to build a portfolio, so this way, I get a silly bit of paper that says I can do things, plus (and more important) get something worth while to show portfolio wise. :)
David, if this plan doesnt work out, then I'll be heading over to mainland UK to get some sort of course like you have suggested. :D
Cheers.
Have you thought about applying for the Animation Mentor course?
David
PS Where are you in the UK?
I'm in N.Ireland so there isnt too much to choose from. :) Yes, I would agree that Uni is a waste of time in that you can learn alot more by yourself...but with work, I didnt have much time at all to build a portfolio, so this way, I get a silly bit of paper that says I can do things, plus (and more important) get something worth while to show portfolio wise. :)
David, if this plan doesnt work out, then I'll be heading over to mainland UK to get some sort of course like you have suggested. :D
Cheers.
SpaceTik
12-12-2005, 02:11 PM
Just bought modo, tried Maya for a while and got some good results, but this program modo will be the leader in no time.. imho
and animation mentor I will definitely do as soom as I finish all the tutorials I can get my grubby hands on.
..now back to the tutorials! :)
have fun guys!
and animation mentor I will definitely do as soom as I finish all the tutorials I can get my grubby hands on.
..now back to the tutorials! :)
have fun guys!
phantomworkshop
12-12-2005, 04:35 PM
Just bought modo, tried Maya for a while and got some good results, but this program modo will be the leader in no time.. imho
and animation mentor I will definitely do as soom as I finish all the tutorials I can get my grubby hands on.
..now back to the tutorials! :)
have fun guys!
I'd love to do the Animation Mentor program, if I had the $$ .. heh, too bad they don't accept FAFSA... yet. Hey, what do you think about online schooling for Animation from like Westwood College, or Academy of Arts?
and animation mentor I will definitely do as soom as I finish all the tutorials I can get my grubby hands on.
..now back to the tutorials! :)
have fun guys!
I'd love to do the Animation Mentor program, if I had the $$ .. heh, too bad they don't accept FAFSA... yet. Hey, what do you think about online schooling for Animation from like Westwood College, or Academy of Arts?
Sonk
12-12-2005, 05:06 PM
abit off topic, but since phantomworkshop ask about modeling technique. The one i prefer is edge loop modeling. I want to talk abit about edge loop modeling, derived surface, and poles...they are somewhat related.
edge loop modeling is dependent on derived surface(Subdivine your mesh), it should lack any poles. whats a pole? Usually extruding or insetting creates a pole(fig A), thats not to say you cant extrude or inset without creating a pole, in fact you can(fig B). I should note that (fig A) is typical technique in box modeling, for creating eye sockets, but it creates a pole. The common thing between box modeling and edge loop modeling is you can both start off with a box and add initail edge loop, where it differ is how you do your extrusion and insets(fig A and B):
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6521/figab6gt.jpg
Fig. C shows that edge loop commonly run horizon and veritcally , and it describes the basic form of a mesh. But in order to get unique contours into the mesh(like for areas, like the wrinkles around the mouth, eyes), we need to create edge loops that are running diagonally(spelling? Fig. D). a single edge loop can run across itself, as long as it create a continueist loop(Fig. E), actually all edge loop should create a infinite loop(like a train track)
http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/9121/figcd5yb.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4086/fige0pk.jpg
OK, cube and sphere is not a pracitcal to show the technique, the first pic is the frog(took me 3 hours, since its my first time with the technique):
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/913/frog012pn.jpg
Last pic, since its called Edge Loop modeling, i highlighted the major edge loops that "define" the contour of the mesh(by definition edge loop are countour lines in traditional art):
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3803/edgeloops3lk.jpg
You notice that in all the picture, you have N-gons(5 or more side polygons). Keeping all quads isnt really important for animation, just sure your n-gons are on areas that dont move much. Lastly, Edge loop modeling work will with derived surface for generating high res model(this will turn your mesh into all quads).
This is just edge loop modeling in a nutshell, and im by no means a expert in it(hence why my choice of edge loop being abit weak, its really ok..which edge loop modeling is very forgiving ; ) By forgiving i mean, if you select a edgeloop and delete it, it doesnt collapse the form.
In every technique; box modeling(pole modeling), poly by poly, edge loop modeling, artist has to keep the topology in mind, artist would work faster if they didnt have to worry about the topology(as far as organic modeling goes). Modo 201 introduce such a tool, Solid Sketch were we dont have to worry about topology, we can just focus on being artist and let the software worry about the topology.
edge loop modeling is dependent on derived surface(Subdivine your mesh), it should lack any poles. whats a pole? Usually extruding or insetting creates a pole(fig A), thats not to say you cant extrude or inset without creating a pole, in fact you can(fig B). I should note that (fig A) is typical technique in box modeling, for creating eye sockets, but it creates a pole. The common thing between box modeling and edge loop modeling is you can both start off with a box and add initail edge loop, where it differ is how you do your extrusion and insets(fig A and B):
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6521/figab6gt.jpg
Fig. C shows that edge loop commonly run horizon and veritcally , and it describes the basic form of a mesh. But in order to get unique contours into the mesh(like for areas, like the wrinkles around the mouth, eyes), we need to create edge loops that are running diagonally(spelling? Fig. D). a single edge loop can run across itself, as long as it create a continueist loop(Fig. E), actually all edge loop should create a infinite loop(like a train track)
http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/9121/figcd5yb.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4086/fige0pk.jpg
OK, cube and sphere is not a pracitcal to show the technique, the first pic is the frog(took me 3 hours, since its my first time with the technique):
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/913/frog012pn.jpg
Last pic, since its called Edge Loop modeling, i highlighted the major edge loops that "define" the contour of the mesh(by definition edge loop are countour lines in traditional art):
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3803/edgeloops3lk.jpg
You notice that in all the picture, you have N-gons(5 or more side polygons). Keeping all quads isnt really important for animation, just sure your n-gons are on areas that dont move much. Lastly, Edge loop modeling work will with derived surface for generating high res model(this will turn your mesh into all quads).
This is just edge loop modeling in a nutshell, and im by no means a expert in it(hence why my choice of edge loop being abit weak, its really ok..which edge loop modeling is very forgiving ; ) By forgiving i mean, if you select a edgeloop and delete it, it doesnt collapse the form.
In every technique; box modeling(pole modeling), poly by poly, edge loop modeling, artist has to keep the topology in mind, artist would work faster if they didnt have to worry about the topology(as far as organic modeling goes). Modo 201 introduce such a tool, Solid Sketch were we dont have to worry about topology, we can just focus on being artist and let the software worry about the topology.
SpaceTik
12-13-2005, 03:35 AM
Modo 201 introduce such a tool, Solid Sketch were we dont have to worry about topology, we can just focus on being artist and let the software worry about the topology.
well said, thats the main reason why I chose this program! :)
well said, thats the main reason why I chose this program! :)
SpaceTik
12-13-2005, 03:57 AM
I'd love to do the Animation Mentor program, if I had the $$ .. heh, too bad they don't accept FAFSA... yet. Hey, what do you think about online schooling for Animation from like Westwood College, or Academy of Arts?
Just checked it out, dont look like they have an online training presence but the work they do looks impressive.. Animation mentor is the way to go for wots in my head at the moment.
They seem to have the best in the industry and after having paid over $12,000 for a Maya Unlimited licence only to find I got no support from them(Power Media) on top of that they dropped the price about a month after!!! (they had the nerve and tried to sell me another copy a day before the price drop was announced, even offering to throw in a Mac to sweeten the deal!)
that's just plain WRONG! They even set me up for 10 lessons at $450 a day with a "certified Maya tutor" only to find he was a B-grade student who had done a maya course but was a complete novice himself!
I know im gullible but it taught me not to EVER deal with outlets like Power Media.
I'm now willing to pay a few hundred when I see a good product or services online after much research to see if it's good for me!
:D
Just checked it out, dont look like they have an online training presence but the work they do looks impressive.. Animation mentor is the way to go for wots in my head at the moment.
They seem to have the best in the industry and after having paid over $12,000 for a Maya Unlimited licence only to find I got no support from them(Power Media) on top of that they dropped the price about a month after!!! (they had the nerve and tried to sell me another copy a day before the price drop was announced, even offering to throw in a Mac to sweeten the deal!)
that's just plain WRONG! They even set me up for 10 lessons at $450 a day with a "certified Maya tutor" only to find he was a B-grade student who had done a maya course but was a complete novice himself!
I know im gullible but it taught me not to EVER deal with outlets like Power Media.
I'm now willing to pay a few hundred when I see a good product or services online after much research to see if it's good for me!
:D
Zarathustra
12-15-2005, 03:44 PM
I say you can learn most things on your own. I'd get my skills to a respectable level first and THEN go to school. Why go to school then, you ask?
1) To show off against novices
2) Network, which is easier to do if you're the star of the class (ie. - see #1)
3) Skip out early and get a job (ie. - see #2)
When I wanted to go to school for 3D, you couldn't. Oh well.
No excuse (if you have talent) not to be a decent modeler these days. Computers are pretty powerful now and software is, too (even the free stuff). You damn kids! Back in my day....
Actually when I started I had 2 guys who would drone on about how hard it was on the Amiga. You'll one day be telling kids how hard it was for you, back before neural interfaces. :D
1) To show off against novices
2) Network, which is easier to do if you're the star of the class (ie. - see #1)
3) Skip out early and get a job (ie. - see #2)
When I wanted to go to school for 3D, you couldn't. Oh well.
No excuse (if you have talent) not to be a decent modeler these days. Computers are pretty powerful now and software is, too (even the free stuff). You damn kids! Back in my day....
Actually when I started I had 2 guys who would drone on about how hard it was on the Amiga. You'll one day be telling kids how hard it was for you, back before neural interfaces. :D
Cheers
12-15-2005, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=Phil Lawson] Yes, I would agree that Uni is a waste of time in that you can learn alot more by yourself...QUOTE]
I would have to disagree with you there Phil. Agreed, a great showreel can be a great benefit and nothing beats work experience...in fact many of us are a bit too long in the tooth to have anything else...but, a good qualification and the portfolio that brings with it, along with the networking are essential for anybody wanting to enter the industry at this point in time.
As I say, it is only those that have been around the industry for years who can show a long and impressive CV that stand a chance without qualifications.
Saying that, the above only aplies to getting employment within studios, freelancing is a different matter altogether.
Cheers
I would have to disagree with you there Phil. Agreed, a great showreel can be a great benefit and nothing beats work experience...in fact many of us are a bit too long in the tooth to have anything else...but, a good qualification and the portfolio that brings with it, along with the networking are essential for anybody wanting to enter the industry at this point in time.
As I say, it is only those that have been around the industry for years who can show a long and impressive CV that stand a chance without qualifications.
Saying that, the above only aplies to getting employment within studios, freelancing is a different matter altogether.
Cheers
Zarathustra
12-15-2005, 05:20 PM
a good qualification and the portfolio that brings with it, along with the networking are essential for anybody wanting to enter the industry at this point in time.
The assumption is good education = good portfolio. Trust me, that is a false assumption. I get some of the worst demos from grads or soon-to-be grads from "reputable" schools.
#1 and #2 are talent and networking. It seems you can't get anywhere without either, only it sucks when people get jobs due to shmoozing with no talent (or fail to land them because they can't shmooze but have talent) but at the end of the day you can only hope things right themselves eventually.
I think due to the competition these days, you have to go all out which means relocating to a school in the heart of the action that regularly feeds the big studios as well as having internships with them and/or guests from them on a regular basis. Along with that, you have to hit the social scene wherever the bigwigs are.
I'm too old and stubborn at this point to do that, take non-paying jobs, shmooze, or play any of those games. :hmm:
The assumption is good education = good portfolio. Trust me, that is a false assumption. I get some of the worst demos from grads or soon-to-be grads from "reputable" schools.
#1 and #2 are talent and networking. It seems you can't get anywhere without either, only it sucks when people get jobs due to shmoozing with no talent (or fail to land them because they can't shmooze but have talent) but at the end of the day you can only hope things right themselves eventually.
I think due to the competition these days, you have to go all out which means relocating to a school in the heart of the action that regularly feeds the big studios as well as having internships with them and/or guests from them on a regular basis. Along with that, you have to hit the social scene wherever the bigwigs are.
I'm too old and stubborn at this point to do that, take non-paying jobs, shmooze, or play any of those games. :hmm:
Cheers
12-15-2005, 07:06 PM
I totally agree with most of what you said Zarathustra...but;
"The assumption is good education = good portfolio. Trust me, that is a false assumption. I get some of the worst demos from grads or soon-to-be grads from "reputable" schools."
Christ, I hope that isn't the case with the student's we try to graduate :blush:
I know where you are coming from, but I think that has more to do with the amount of students Uni's want to attract rather than the quality of students.
I think I was looking at it more in terms of , if a student shows a good understanding of not only modelling, rigging etc, etc, but also shows awareness of issue involved with studio pipelines, file transfer (scaling etc) then it can't do no harm. Saying that though, I am fully aware of what the industry is like and would never tell a student the likely chance of them walking out of Uni and into a job...I wouldn't want somebodies suicide on my conscience.
On top of that, try getting a job in the US within the CG industry when you aren't a US national...without a degree it is next to impossible.
Cheers
"The assumption is good education = good portfolio. Trust me, that is a false assumption. I get some of the worst demos from grads or soon-to-be grads from "reputable" schools."
Christ, I hope that isn't the case with the student's we try to graduate :blush:
I know where you are coming from, but I think that has more to do with the amount of students Uni's want to attract rather than the quality of students.
I think I was looking at it more in terms of , if a student shows a good understanding of not only modelling, rigging etc, etc, but also shows awareness of issue involved with studio pipelines, file transfer (scaling etc) then it can't do no harm. Saying that though, I am fully aware of what the industry is like and would never tell a student the likely chance of them walking out of Uni and into a job...I wouldn't want somebodies suicide on my conscience.
On top of that, try getting a job in the US within the CG industry when you aren't a US national...without a degree it is next to impossible.
Cheers
Sonk
12-15-2005, 07:38 PM
I say you can learn most things on your own. I'd get my skills to a respectable level first and THEN go to school. Why go to school then, you ask?
1) To show off against novices
2) Network, which is easier to do if you're the star of the class (ie. - see #1)
3) Skip out early and get a job (ie. - see #2)
When I wanted to go to school for 3D, you couldn't. Oh well.
No excuse (if you have talent) not to be a decent modeler these days. Computers are pretty powerful now and software is, too (even the free stuff). You damn kids! Back in my day....
Actually when I started I had 2 guys who would drone on about how hard it was on the Amiga. You'll one day be telling kids how hard it was for you, back before neural interfaces. :D
1. nobody likes a show off :P
2. I do agree networking is important,but for me im going to make my own path without networking.. (im confident i'll get a gaming job next year..without hook ups).
3. huh? *confused* not sure about that...
4. at least you got to use the Amiga, i didnt! :P so dont complain. But there was this thing they call the "digital divide" when i was growing up, which is why i couldnt get a computer back in the days. BTW the Amiga is making a come back next year ..im so excited :D
5. the Maya bouncing ball tutorail was awesome!! :D rofl..oh man, i wonder what johny boy was thinking after he saw that parody.
I totally agree with most of what you said Zarathustra...but;
"The assumption is good education = good portfolio. Trust me, that is a false assumption. I get some of the worst demos from grads or soon-to-be grads from "reputable" schools."
Christ, I hope that isn't the case with the student's we try to graduate :blush:
I know where you are coming from, but I think that has more to do with the amount of students Uni's want to attract rather than the quality of students.
I think there was another thread in general discussion about people feeling rip off going to school for 3D related stuff. check it out.
the problem isnt really quality student per say, its quality teacher(this isnt directed at you Cheers or any teachers on the forum, since i dont know you guys personally). If those teacher were so talented and great, they would probably be working in the industry making 3 times the money they are making for teaching. We left with average teachers, who probably know the software, but dont really teach modeling,animation,etc in any practical way. In rare cases, there are gifted/talented teachers that could work for the industry but they love teaching(but thats a different story). Great teachers whether its 3D, math,etc are hard to come by.
I took a 3DSMAX class awhile back in College, while the teacher knew the software, he didnt really know how to teach box modeling/ edgeloop modeling..so it wasnt really a practical class in that sense. Ever since than, i feel bitter about the whole College thing, i went on my own path, and learn the ins and outs of 3D modeling, rigging, texturing,etc by myself. A College degree is just a invitation to a party, but you can also get into a party by bringing some goods ;).
IMHO, everyone should at least get your feet wet(on their own time!) before jumpin into paying a arm and leg for 3D education.
1) To show off against novices
2) Network, which is easier to do if you're the star of the class (ie. - see #1)
3) Skip out early and get a job (ie. - see #2)
When I wanted to go to school for 3D, you couldn't. Oh well.
No excuse (if you have talent) not to be a decent modeler these days. Computers are pretty powerful now and software is, too (even the free stuff). You damn kids! Back in my day....
Actually when I started I had 2 guys who would drone on about how hard it was on the Amiga. You'll one day be telling kids how hard it was for you, back before neural interfaces. :D
1. nobody likes a show off :P
2. I do agree networking is important,but for me im going to make my own path without networking.. (im confident i'll get a gaming job next year..without hook ups).
3. huh? *confused* not sure about that...
4. at least you got to use the Amiga, i didnt! :P so dont complain. But there was this thing they call the "digital divide" when i was growing up, which is why i couldnt get a computer back in the days. BTW the Amiga is making a come back next year ..im so excited :D
5. the Maya bouncing ball tutorail was awesome!! :D rofl..oh man, i wonder what johny boy was thinking after he saw that parody.
I totally agree with most of what you said Zarathustra...but;
"The assumption is good education = good portfolio. Trust me, that is a false assumption. I get some of the worst demos from grads or soon-to-be grads from "reputable" schools."
Christ, I hope that isn't the case with the student's we try to graduate :blush:
I know where you are coming from, but I think that has more to do with the amount of students Uni's want to attract rather than the quality of students.
I think there was another thread in general discussion about people feeling rip off going to school for 3D related stuff. check it out.
the problem isnt really quality student per say, its quality teacher(this isnt directed at you Cheers or any teachers on the forum, since i dont know you guys personally). If those teacher were so talented and great, they would probably be working in the industry making 3 times the money they are making for teaching. We left with average teachers, who probably know the software, but dont really teach modeling,animation,etc in any practical way. In rare cases, there are gifted/talented teachers that could work for the industry but they love teaching(but thats a different story). Great teachers whether its 3D, math,etc are hard to come by.
I took a 3DSMAX class awhile back in College, while the teacher knew the software, he didnt really know how to teach box modeling/ edgeloop modeling..so it wasnt really a practical class in that sense. Ever since than, i feel bitter about the whole College thing, i went on my own path, and learn the ins and outs of 3D modeling, rigging, texturing,etc by myself. A College degree is just a invitation to a party, but you can also get into a party by bringing some goods ;).
IMHO, everyone should at least get your feet wet(on their own time!) before jumpin into paying a arm and leg for 3D education.
Zarathustra
12-15-2005, 08:07 PM
In the US, colleges and universities are a big business, even state subsidized ones. As long as you do enough to pass and keep paying, you'll get a degree. It's also very lucrative for them and the tuitions costs are escalating far above inflation rates because those degrees have become a must-have item in order to either get a job or demand a certain pay level. What my college cost for 4 years (1988-1992) I believe now buys you 1 year.
Now to complicate the problem, let's look at the arts. It's not exactly a situation where your essay was poor, your equations didn't add up, your experiment blew up or any other situation where you failed to provide the right answer enough times to earn a degree. What are the right answers in art? It's all subjective so it's way too easy for an art program to just pass along a kid, collect his money and tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out.
Sonk mentions a touchy subject about teachers. There's no blanket answer but there are plenty of times where what he says is true in the arts. The more competitive the field, the fewer the openings so education becomes an option more for a job rather than a love of teaching.
The other thing, which I often experienced, is classrooms moving too slow. This could be to accommodate the lowest common denominator, teacher knowledge/experience, school curriculum trying to pad out what they offer to fill class time to justify a degree, or who knows what else.
The last thing concerning Sonk's comments is keeping up with what's going on. CG is a field growing and changing almost daily. After 1 year of education, what you learned may become useless with the release of some new software. Add to that the ability of the educators to stay abreast of what's going on in the industry and the costs involved for the schools to keep hardware/software up to date and you have another reason your education may be less than what you desired.
As far as CG, I'm self educated. The times gave me no choice, but I continue to add to my education daily through dvds, mags, and of course forums like this. It's still possible. The values I see in a paid education for cg now is the networking, the job placement rate of the school and how closely their classes simulate real world production environments. I think the best schools are probably West Coast US for all those things as well as instructors that are actually working in the field.
*note - all this comes from a self employed guy who hasn't himself been in school for over 12 years, works out of his home studio and is in Delaware, which is pretty far removed from the hustle and bustle of the cg industry.:rolleyes:
Now to complicate the problem, let's look at the arts. It's not exactly a situation where your essay was poor, your equations didn't add up, your experiment blew up or any other situation where you failed to provide the right answer enough times to earn a degree. What are the right answers in art? It's all subjective so it's way too easy for an art program to just pass along a kid, collect his money and tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out.
Sonk mentions a touchy subject about teachers. There's no blanket answer but there are plenty of times where what he says is true in the arts. The more competitive the field, the fewer the openings so education becomes an option more for a job rather than a love of teaching.
The other thing, which I often experienced, is classrooms moving too slow. This could be to accommodate the lowest common denominator, teacher knowledge/experience, school curriculum trying to pad out what they offer to fill class time to justify a degree, or who knows what else.
The last thing concerning Sonk's comments is keeping up with what's going on. CG is a field growing and changing almost daily. After 1 year of education, what you learned may become useless with the release of some new software. Add to that the ability of the educators to stay abreast of what's going on in the industry and the costs involved for the schools to keep hardware/software up to date and you have another reason your education may be less than what you desired.
As far as CG, I'm self educated. The times gave me no choice, but I continue to add to my education daily through dvds, mags, and of course forums like this. It's still possible. The values I see in a paid education for cg now is the networking, the job placement rate of the school and how closely their classes simulate real world production environments. I think the best schools are probably West Coast US for all those things as well as instructors that are actually working in the field.
*note - all this comes from a self employed guy who hasn't himself been in school for over 12 years, works out of his home studio and is in Delaware, which is pretty far removed from the hustle and bustle of the cg industry.:rolleyes:
Robert Bateman
12-15-2005, 08:29 PM
I'm in N.Ireland so there isnt too much to choose from. :) Yes, I would agree that Uni is a waste of time in that you can learn alot more by yourself...but with work, I didnt have much time at all to build a portfolio, so this way, I get a silly bit of paper that says I can do things, plus (and more important) get something worth while to show portfolio wise. :)
David, if this plan doesnt work out, then I'll be heading over to mainland UK to get some sort of course like you have suggested. :D
Cheers.
I disagree somewhat. I used to lecture at the NCCA in bournemouth, and it was very apparent that what people gained from somewhere like that was the ability to be surrounded by a large number of people all doing the same subject. The standard of work between people who worked all day and night at home, and those who always worked in the labs was *significant*.
It is entirely possible to learn enough to get into the industry by self study at home, however having people around you that you can ask, and seek help from, makes a drastic difference to the speed at which you can learn. You *will* learn far more from 3 years on a degree than you ever will at home.
David, if this plan doesnt work out, then I'll be heading over to mainland UK to get some sort of course like you have suggested. :D
Cheers.
I disagree somewhat. I used to lecture at the NCCA in bournemouth, and it was very apparent that what people gained from somewhere like that was the ability to be surrounded by a large number of people all doing the same subject. The standard of work between people who worked all day and night at home, and those who always worked in the labs was *significant*.
It is entirely possible to learn enough to get into the industry by self study at home, however having people around you that you can ask, and seek help from, makes a drastic difference to the speed at which you can learn. You *will* learn far more from 3 years on a degree than you ever will at home.
Robert Bateman
12-15-2005, 08:37 PM
I say you can learn most things on your own. I'd get my skills to a respectable level first and THEN go to school. Why go to school then, you ask?
1) To show off against novices
2) Network, which is easier to do if you're the star of the class (ie. - see #1)
3) Skip out early and get a job (ie. - see #2)
well, that doesn't work. I've seen a lot of people who think that that is the answer. The reality is that the best student in a bunch of freshers, is always the one whom everyone else is destined to catch within 6months. Being the best communicator makes you the star of the class, and it is that quality that people will remember long after the course has finished. Arrogance doesn't go far in this industry - if you believe at the start of a course that you have nothing to learn, you will quickly discover that you were very very wrong.
1) To show off against novices
2) Network, which is easier to do if you're the star of the class (ie. - see #1)
3) Skip out early and get a job (ie. - see #2)
well, that doesn't work. I've seen a lot of people who think that that is the answer. The reality is that the best student in a bunch of freshers, is always the one whom everyone else is destined to catch within 6months. Being the best communicator makes you the star of the class, and it is that quality that people will remember long after the course has finished. Arrogance doesn't go far in this industry - if you believe at the start of a course that you have nothing to learn, you will quickly discover that you were very very wrong.
Zarathustra
12-15-2005, 08:45 PM
I said nothing about arrogance. Confidence is beliveing you're good. Arrogance is telling everyone you are.
If you happen to learn something, then bonus. School is a tool to be used. I outlined one usage. You see another. Neither is absolute in it's correctness, despite the strength of your conviction.
If you happen to learn something, then bonus. School is a tool to be used. I outlined one usage. You see another. Neither is absolute in it's correctness, despite the strength of your conviction.
Cheers
12-15-2005, 08:50 PM
the problem isnt really quality student per say, its quality teacher(this isnt directed at you Cheers or any teachers on the forum, since i dont know you guys personally). If those teacher were so talented and great, they would probably be working in the industry making 3 times the money they are making for teaching. We left with average teachers, who probably know the software, but dont really teach modeling,animation,etc in any practical way. In rare cases, there are gifted/talented teachers that could work for the industry but they love teaching(but thats a different story). Great teachers whether its 3D, math,etc are hard to come by.
I took a 3DSMAX class awhile back in College, while the teacher knew the software, he didnt really know how to teach box modeling/ edgeloop modeling..so it wasnt really a practical class in that sense. Ever since than, i feel bitter about the whole College thing, i went on my own path, and learn the ins and outs of 3D modeling, rigging, texturing,etc by myself. A College degree is just a invitation to a party, but you can also get into a party by bringing some goods ;).
IMHO, everyone should at least get your feet wet(on their own time!) before jumpin into paying a arm and leg for 3D education.
Sonk, I can totally see where you are coming from and agree that in many places the teaching has a lot to be desired...hopefully not at my place, well I'm certain thats not the case.
As for taking a job in education instead of the industry...it's not as black and white as that. I can only talk about my personal situation, but yes I do take an education wage (which gives me job security...something the CG industry isn't known for), but aside from that I write (CG related articles) and continue to freelance...for me it's the best of both worlds. Ohh and I was employed by my Uni because of the strength of my portfolio and experience within the industry ;)
Of course I can't give an unbiased opinion, because I work in education...I just hope our students (some who can be seen around here and giving tutorials within "trade" magazines), can attest to a worthwhile education while they are with us at my particular establishment.
Zarathustra, you also make a very valid point; I have seen teachers that have been in education so long and lost touch with the industry (not particularly the CG Industry and I haven't noticed it at my Uni), that what they are teaching has little relevance to todays market.
Like yourself, when I started, there was no such thing as CG related courses, on the web (hmmm, where was the web lol), or at a University...my experience also came from slogging away at an BBC Micro or Amiga, banging my head, having an inner drive to reach my goals and therefore having a head start when the industry needed people. Ohh, and making sure I'm enjoying the ride while I am at it ;)
Before I go, just one other thing that I think students benefit from...access to recourses that would otherwise be unavailable to them.
Cheers
I took a 3DSMAX class awhile back in College, while the teacher knew the software, he didnt really know how to teach box modeling/ edgeloop modeling..so it wasnt really a practical class in that sense. Ever since than, i feel bitter about the whole College thing, i went on my own path, and learn the ins and outs of 3D modeling, rigging, texturing,etc by myself. A College degree is just a invitation to a party, but you can also get into a party by bringing some goods ;).
IMHO, everyone should at least get your feet wet(on their own time!) before jumpin into paying a arm and leg for 3D education.
Sonk, I can totally see where you are coming from and agree that in many places the teaching has a lot to be desired...hopefully not at my place, well I'm certain thats not the case.
As for taking a job in education instead of the industry...it's not as black and white as that. I can only talk about my personal situation, but yes I do take an education wage (which gives me job security...something the CG industry isn't known for), but aside from that I write (CG related articles) and continue to freelance...for me it's the best of both worlds. Ohh and I was employed by my Uni because of the strength of my portfolio and experience within the industry ;)
Of course I can't give an unbiased opinion, because I work in education...I just hope our students (some who can be seen around here and giving tutorials within "trade" magazines), can attest to a worthwhile education while they are with us at my particular establishment.
Zarathustra, you also make a very valid point; I have seen teachers that have been in education so long and lost touch with the industry (not particularly the CG Industry and I haven't noticed it at my Uni), that what they are teaching has little relevance to todays market.
Like yourself, when I started, there was no such thing as CG related courses, on the web (hmmm, where was the web lol), or at a University...my experience also came from slogging away at an BBC Micro or Amiga, banging my head, having an inner drive to reach my goals and therefore having a head start when the industry needed people. Ohh, and making sure I'm enjoying the ride while I am at it ;)
Before I go, just one other thing that I think students benefit from...access to recourses that would otherwise be unavailable to them.
Cheers
Robert Bateman
12-15-2005, 08:57 PM
the problem isnt really quality student per say, its quality teacher(this isnt directed at you Cheers or any teachers on the forum, since i dont know you guys personally). If those teacher were so talented and great, they would probably be working in the industry making 3 times the money they are making for teaching. We left with average teachers, who probably know the software, but dont really teach modeling,animation,etc in any practical way. In rare cases, there are gifted/talented teachers that could work for the industry but they love teaching(but thats a different story). Great teachers whether its 3D, math,etc are hard to come by.
well, the pay for a lecturer is much better than the average CG salary. Days of earning big bucks in CG ended a long time ago, i wouldn't be too suprised if some very talented people start migrating back to education jobs very soon.... ;)
I'd like to consider myself as a good teacher, i left education after 3 1/2 years simply because i felt that if i didn't return to industry, my skills would become outdated. I did however take a great deal of steps to ensure that a good replacement was found before i left.
The depressing thing about education is that you have 2 levels. On one level you have lecturers who are determined to teach to the best of their ability. On the other hand you have the financial management side that are determined to make the finacial books balance.
I'd also point out, that lecturing is an increadably hard job. If you have ever given a 15 minutes presentation at uni or school, imagine presenting 2 hours worth of material to a class - the amount of work required is daunting. I'd say from experiance that it takes about 2 years in the job before you get the hang of it, by which time the material you have prepped starts to become old and stale due to the ever changing nature of CG. Often you also realise that a lot of students will unduly attack a lecturers ability simply because they want to find a reason for having failed a unit (it's rare that a student accepts that maybe they failed a unit because of lack of work - or maybe they might have actually learnt something if they didn't turn up every morning hung over from the night before - it's so much easier to blame a lecturer than it is to accept that maybe you messed up ;) )
well, the pay for a lecturer is much better than the average CG salary. Days of earning big bucks in CG ended a long time ago, i wouldn't be too suprised if some very talented people start migrating back to education jobs very soon.... ;)
I'd like to consider myself as a good teacher, i left education after 3 1/2 years simply because i felt that if i didn't return to industry, my skills would become outdated. I did however take a great deal of steps to ensure that a good replacement was found before i left.
The depressing thing about education is that you have 2 levels. On one level you have lecturers who are determined to teach to the best of their ability. On the other hand you have the financial management side that are determined to make the finacial books balance.
I'd also point out, that lecturing is an increadably hard job. If you have ever given a 15 minutes presentation at uni or school, imagine presenting 2 hours worth of material to a class - the amount of work required is daunting. I'd say from experiance that it takes about 2 years in the job before you get the hang of it, by which time the material you have prepped starts to become old and stale due to the ever changing nature of CG. Often you also realise that a lot of students will unduly attack a lecturers ability simply because they want to find a reason for having failed a unit (it's rare that a student accepts that maybe they failed a unit because of lack of work - or maybe they might have actually learnt something if they didn't turn up every morning hung over from the night before - it's so much easier to blame a lecturer than it is to accept that maybe you messed up ;) )
Cheers
12-15-2005, 09:00 PM
The standard of work between people who worked all day and night at home, and those who always worked in the labs was *significant*.
Good point and it is an issue that is also very noticable at my establishment, Robert. Strong peer feedback and collaboration within an educational enviroment have been proven to produce better results.
Cheers
Good point and it is an issue that is also very noticable at my establishment, Robert. Strong peer feedback and collaboration within an educational enviroment have been proven to produce better results.
Cheers
Sonk
12-16-2005, 05:09 AM
Often you also realise that a lot of students will unduly attack a lecturers ability simply because they want to find a reason for having failed a unit (it's rare that a student accepts that maybe they failed a unit because of lack of work - or maybe they might have actually learnt something if they didn't turn up every morning hung over from the night before - it's so much easier to blame a lecturer than it is to accept that maybe you messed up ;) )
Good thing i dont drink :D. I wont name any names(because that wont be right), but im sure in my case it wasnt the student fault or my fault(i guess your going to have to take my word for it).
Im sure there are some great teacher out there and also some bad ones, but kudos to all the great teacher out there! yeah thats what i wanted to say. we need more of you guys out there. The great teachers usually make a huge impact on someone life, i used to have a high school math teacher, and his ability to simplify a tough problem was awesome..i learnt alot in that class. BTW, im not down playing the importance of education, im just saying its not for everyone..good thing we have the internet!
EDIT: Robert, i realize that i might of offended you with my little rant about teachers. So i apologize for that, it wasnt direct at you or Cheers really.
and PS i was a good student! :) and dont forget about Brad weekly friday update of Modo 201, tomorrow is Friday!!
@Zarathustra, i agree its important to keep on your toes as a 3DCG artist, its important to continuely improve ones skill. With the whole Discreet buying Alias ordeal, it makes me wonder if in the future, they would release some sort of bastard child of Maya/Max love affair. Seems like we have to learn/relearn something new every 5-6 years...
Good thing i dont drink :D. I wont name any names(because that wont be right), but im sure in my case it wasnt the student fault or my fault(i guess your going to have to take my word for it).
Im sure there are some great teacher out there and also some bad ones, but kudos to all the great teacher out there! yeah thats what i wanted to say. we need more of you guys out there. The great teachers usually make a huge impact on someone life, i used to have a high school math teacher, and his ability to simplify a tough problem was awesome..i learnt alot in that class. BTW, im not down playing the importance of education, im just saying its not for everyone..good thing we have the internet!
EDIT: Robert, i realize that i might of offended you with my little rant about teachers. So i apologize for that, it wasnt direct at you or Cheers really.
and PS i was a good student! :) and dont forget about Brad weekly friday update of Modo 201, tomorrow is Friday!!
@Zarathustra, i agree its important to keep on your toes as a 3DCG artist, its important to continuely improve ones skill. With the whole Discreet buying Alias ordeal, it makes me wonder if in the future, they would release some sort of bastard child of Maya/Max love affair. Seems like we have to learn/relearn something new every 5-6 years...
Zarathustra
12-16-2005, 05:57 AM
Considering the cost of a degree from some colleges and universities being anywhere between the cost of a car and a house, if you show up hung over for class you're an idiot. If that's been your experience teaching Robert, then I can see why you figure no one can learn and develop on their own without heavy support and supervision.
Knowing people in education, I completely believe you. I've heard plenty of stories, too. What I described earlier is not for the clowns who go to school for the keggers. It's for highly talented and self motivated people.
Knowing people in education, I completely believe you. I've heard plenty of stories, too. What I described earlier is not for the clowns who go to school for the keggers. It's for highly talented and self motivated people.
ambient-whisper
12-16-2005, 04:05 PM
2. I do agree networking is important,but for me im going to make my own path without networking.. (im confident i'll get a gaming job next year..without hook ups).
you might have a hard time then.
the process of hiring where i work varies from division to division, but ill describe how it usually works.
often when we are looking for people we will look for positions in 3 ways.
the first is internally. then if we cant find anyone within the company then we ask our friends/people we know. and only if we cant find anyone from those 2 first buckets that we look at people from the outside.
i'll tell you now, by the time we reach to the point of needing to hire from the outside, positions are usually already filled, and that is why having contacts is benefitial, because you learn about jobs WAY ahead of everyone else, before jobs get posted to the public.
its got nothing to do with getting hired only because you are good, versus because you knew someone. if you weren't good, then they probably wouldn't be asking to hire you, and or someone else within the company would have said that this particular person isnt right for us.
you might have a hard time then.
the process of hiring where i work varies from division to division, but ill describe how it usually works.
often when we are looking for people we will look for positions in 3 ways.
the first is internally. then if we cant find anyone within the company then we ask our friends/people we know. and only if we cant find anyone from those 2 first buckets that we look at people from the outside.
i'll tell you now, by the time we reach to the point of needing to hire from the outside, positions are usually already filled, and that is why having contacts is benefitial, because you learn about jobs WAY ahead of everyone else, before jobs get posted to the public.
its got nothing to do with getting hired only because you are good, versus because you knew someone. if you weren't good, then they probably wouldn't be asking to hire you, and or someone else within the company would have said that this particular person isnt right for us.
Zarathustra
12-16-2005, 04:25 PM
its got nothing to do with getting hired only because you are good, versus because you knew someone. if you weren't good, then they probably wouldn't be asking to hire you, and or someone else within the company would have said that this particular person isnt right for us.
But is the person hired the most talented you could get, or the most talented amongst the community of friends and family of the current staff?
But is the person hired the most talented you could get, or the most talented amongst the community of friends and family of the current staff?
Phil Lawson
12-16-2005, 04:25 PM
[QUOTE=Phil Lawson] Yes, I would agree that Uni is a waste of time in that you can learn alot more by yourself...QUOTE]
I would have to disagree with you there Phil. Agreed, a great showreel can be a great benefit and nothing beats work experience...in fact many of us are a bit too long in the tooth to have anything else...but, a good qualification and the portfolio that brings with it, along with the networking are essential for anybody wanting to enter the industry at this point in time.
As I say, it is only those that have been around the industry for years who can show a long and impressive CV that stand a chance without qualifications.
Saying that, the above only aplies to getting employment within studios, freelancing is a different matter altogether.
Cheers
Hi Cheers...I think my wording was rather poorly thought out there. The point I was trying to get across is that going to Uni doesnt make you instantly hire-able. There is alot of "down to you" in there as i'm sure you know.
Yes, networking helps greatly...I still have contacts from companies that I woked with in my old job who want some work done for them. I hope more contacts can be gathered in University.
While I was working, I found it very hard to find the time to build a respectable portfolio. With uni, there is alot more time to at least try and get something done, and as you say, get a qualification at the end of it all.
:)
I would have to disagree with you there Phil. Agreed, a great showreel can be a great benefit and nothing beats work experience...in fact many of us are a bit too long in the tooth to have anything else...but, a good qualification and the portfolio that brings with it, along with the networking are essential for anybody wanting to enter the industry at this point in time.
As I say, it is only those that have been around the industry for years who can show a long and impressive CV that stand a chance without qualifications.
Saying that, the above only aplies to getting employment within studios, freelancing is a different matter altogether.
Cheers
Hi Cheers...I think my wording was rather poorly thought out there. The point I was trying to get across is that going to Uni doesnt make you instantly hire-able. There is alot of "down to you" in there as i'm sure you know.
Yes, networking helps greatly...I still have contacts from companies that I woked with in my old job who want some work done for them. I hope more contacts can be gathered in University.
While I was working, I found it very hard to find the time to build a respectable portfolio. With uni, there is alot more time to at least try and get something done, and as you say, get a qualification at the end of it all.
:)
ambient-whisper
12-16-2005, 05:32 PM
But is the person hired the most talented you could get, or the most talented amongst the community of friends and family of the current staff?
if i were to ask someone to come and work with me, then i already have taken into consideration if the person can output the quality that we need. taken also into convenience is the fact that i already know the person im recommending, so i wont have to adjust to them, and vice versa.
if i were to ask someone to come and work with me, then i already have taken into consideration if the person can output the quality that we need. taken also into convenience is the fact that i already know the person im recommending, so i wont have to adjust to them, and vice versa.
Mike RB
12-16-2005, 05:55 PM
a known quantity is always good. That's how I've gotten almost all my jobs, and how I've gotten other people jobs. Networking is super important.
Mike
Mike
webhead
12-20-2005, 12:27 AM
Just a question that I pondered while browsing around the Forums here... Let's see where Modo is really being used nowadays ;)
Looks like MENITHINGS is another studio that also uses MODO:
http://www.menithings.com/
Looks like MENITHINGS is another studio that also uses MODO:
http://www.menithings.com/
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