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RobertoOrtiz
12-11-2005, 12:54 AM
Quote:
"
Primary development of Terragen™ is now based on Planetside Software's TGD technology. TGD is so named because it is the fourth incarnation of Terragen, and is a significant advance beyond Terragen v0.9. TGD is a complete rewrite of Terragen from scratch, and enables us to further develop the software much more quickly.




Cutting-edge adaptive subdivision renderer.
Modular, plugin-based architecture.
Render entire planets, sweeping vistas, tiny rock gardens, or anything in between.
Import 3D objects for rendering. Export high resolution objects.
Render millions of boulders or trees using "instancing"; even billions of virtual objects (in development)
Add multiple heightfields to your scene. Use procedural terrains that can span an entire planet.
Apply almost "infinite" fractal detail to terrain and other objects.
Overhanging terrain using procedural displacements, image-based displacements, or imported geometry.
Volumetric clouds or fast "2.5D" clouds.
Production quality anti-aliasing and motion blur."
>>LINK<< (http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tgd/tgd.shtml)

-R

Ollarin
12-11-2005, 01:05 AM
Dang. Terragen 2 looks awesome!

Great stuff!

Canadianboy
12-11-2005, 01:37 AM
This is nothing new.

laureato di arte
12-11-2005, 01:44 AM
Im loving terragen

chadtheartist
12-11-2005, 06:09 AM
The fact that's it's going to be available by the end of Jan. is news to me. Albeit it's only a preview of the final version, but I'd still like to play with it. Now I know what I'll be doing in Feb. :D

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tgd/decinfo.shtml

chrisWhite
12-11-2005, 08:20 AM
This may just be the first CG landscape software I'll really take seriously. I really like that it's node based, very nice.

PhantomDesign
12-11-2005, 10:10 AM
Wow, this is amazing stuff.

alvin-cgi
12-11-2005, 10:25 AM
make me want to sale my VUE:curious: ... oops, it tied with LW...:banghead:

GreyWolf_OPS
12-11-2005, 11:36 PM
I remember using the early versions for a while now, messing around and such. I have always been wanting the program to evolve into something that is production worthy, or looks production worthy. My main curiousity is how it will or if the possibility of integrating it with other major 3d apps will be.

Either way I can't wait to get the final version or the Deep edition. Just curious how much the license will be for it.

The fact that you can merge fractal and dem heightfields is a amazing. Will make working with 30m dems more applicable.

Just cant wait to play with this new version. Hope it has a mult-pass render.

JavaJones
12-12-2005, 09:08 PM
Terragen 2 is definitely being aimed, at least in part, at the professional market. That means integration with other 3D apps will be a priority. So-far Planetside has indicated support for import/export of a variety of 3D object formats (OBJ and LWO specified so far), some motion data support, HDR export (OpenEXR at least), and depth buffer output. I think you can safeuly expect more than that as well, possibly including multi-pass output, amongst other things.

Matt, the primary developer, worked at Digital Domain for a number of years during which he began development on this new version, so he's initimately familiar with the needs of that kind of production pipeline and he has expressed the strong desire to serve that market in many of his informal posts to the Terragen mailing list on Yahoo as well as in some official announcements. The Technology Preview release likely will not include all this functionality, but certainly the final product will. So if you're looking for a dedicated, realism-focused landscape app for your pipeline in 2006, TG2 is definitely one to keep your eye on.

- Oshyan

CupOWonton
12-12-2005, 09:45 PM
Can you make caves with TG? or just overhanging cliff sides?

Even if you could, its still just the glorafied height based Terrain map viewer its alwayse been. The only TG work I've ever seen that was impressive had very little to do with TG and more to do with matte painting skills for scifi backdrops.

I think they made a smarter choice when they decided to work on a 3dsmax plugin.

GreyWolf_OPS
12-12-2005, 10:19 PM
Can you make caves with TG? or just overhanging cliff sides?

Even if you could, its still just the glorafied height based Terrain map viewer its alwayse been. The only TG work I've ever seen that was impressive had very little to do with TG and more to do with matte painting skills for scifi backdrops.

I think they made a smarter choice when they decided to work on a 3dsmax plugin.

Well I have to say that Digital Domain worked on the movie Stealth. And I have to say that there was some impressive terrain in that film, and looking at it now. I would have to say that it would be truely a film that might have possibly already shown off TerrainGen2. I mean in the scene where they AI plane goes apeshit and goes after the nukes. Well the terrain is all cg. Seem to recall seeing someone post a link to the Digital Domain "Stealth" demoreel. Showed off some awesome vfx, as well as on the DVD.

Personally I can see this software being used more, and more. The sooner buildings become integrated, and other 3d objects the sky is the limit. I mean you could generate a quick environment and be spending more time on the location you want from the dems, and then refine it even more so. I have to say that Digital Domain has used this terrain technique or similar in other films as well. This just opens the doors to everyone.

leuey
12-12-2005, 10:55 PM
You're kidding me. There's a ton of impressive work done with Terragen. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder - but I couldn't agree w/ you less.

-Greg

. The only TG work I've ever seen that was impressive had very little to do with TG and more to do with matte painting skills for scifi backdrops.
.

CupOWonton
12-13-2005, 02:14 AM
You're kidding me. There's a ton of impressive work done with Terragen. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder - but I couldn't agree w/ you less.

-Greg

Ya know, people keep telling me that, but I've scowered DeviantArt like a madman for this "impressive work" and I have yet to find something strait out of terragen that realy looked ... 'impressive'.
I ran through Terragen and produced some quick renderings, and asside from the lack of defined controll in the testing version, it was not hard at all to make landscapes that look exactly like all the water filled valleys or mountainous ranges that everyone else was reguarding as spectacular. I've even pondered making a joke account to post such renderings, only to laugh at anyone who took them seriously, though then the DA admins would probably ban my IP for abuse and such, so no go. The Grass, Dirt, Water, Land, and Clouds are all procedural noise, big whoop. No trees, houses, buildings, people, animals, 3d grass, fields of wheat or corn, nothing, just green and brown procedurals.

And the better landscapes were usualy made with external programs, or were just DEM maps. I cant be impressed by someones MODELING ability now can I? Nore can I realy be impressed by their texturing ability when its a few pre-sets that are easily learned on a tutorial. The only compicated part that people seemed to voice to me was getting the water and sub-water textures just right.

The only non-photoshopped/matte painted work that I saw that was impressive, was a piece by someone who scanned a computer processor board, then set up a depth map for it, then rendered it out. It looked ok and was a much more original and creative idea for such a stale piece of software.

slaughters
12-13-2005, 03:57 AM
Ya know, people keep telling me that, but I've scowered DeviantArt like a madman for this "impressive work" and I have yet to find something strait out of terragen that realy looked ... 'impressive'....I always liked Luc Bianco'a Terragen work:

http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter235.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter212.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter144.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter251.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter146.jpg

Manel Giuli is pretty good also:

http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Oregon_09.htm
http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Utah_03.htm
http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Washington_01.htm
http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Washington_04.htm

leuey
12-13-2005, 06:54 AM
go here http://www.kk3d.de/

and check out the movies link under terragen. Play the Four Seasons Episode 2 - it's cool. And yes, due to Terragen's popularity there's a lot of 'seen it a hundred times' crap. However, the good stuff is quite cool. btw - impressive is a bit relative (free software, still in beta, yet can make some great images). Terragen 2 I think is what the programmer always envisioned it would be - it just took a big detour during his time at DD.

-Greg

Nichod
12-13-2005, 08:07 AM
Yeah. I can't wait to see what TGD looks like when fully released. From the sounds of it, it will be an impressive piece of software.

google monkey
12-13-2005, 12:11 PM
alpha version of Terragen 2 work
http://lucbianco.free.fr/tgd_index.html (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:ol%28%27http://lucbianco.free.fr/tgd_index.html%27%29;)
(http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:ol%28%27http://lucbianco.free.fr/tgd_index.html%27%29;)

CupOWonton
12-13-2005, 01:44 PM
alpha version of Terragen 2 work
http://lucbianco.free.fr/tgd_index.html (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:ol%28%27http://lucbianco.free.fr/tgd_index.html%27%29;)


Well those sertainly arent encouraging. The only 3 nearly 'photo realistic' images have the least ammount of elevated geography in them. The desert at dawn with rocks, the cactus, and another one I cant remember because I closed the window.

I always liked Luc Bianco'a Terragen work:

http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter235.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter212.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter144.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter251.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/Ter146.jpg

Manel Giuli is pretty good also:

http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Oregon_09.htm
http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Utah_03.htm
http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Washington_01.htm
http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/terravirtual/Washington_04.htm

Eh, When youve seen one good long distance dem render youve pretty much seen em all.
Some look more like backgrounds for bryce and poser.

slaughters
12-13-2005, 01:55 PM
Well those sertainly arent encouraging.....You are entitled to your opinion. I strongly disagree. I expect others would disagree as well.

But, I guess the others can just form their own opinions now that links have been posted. (remember those are Terragen 1 images, not the new Terragen 2 stuff)


This quote did bother me, " Eh, When youve seen one good long distance dem render youve pretty much seen em all." - The whole point of the package is long distance background image renders - It sounds like you're dismissing the whole category, not how Terragen specifically performs in that category.

CupOWonton
12-13-2005, 04:00 PM
That first comment was towards TG2 alpha renders. They werent encouraging.

And yes, Im fully aware some people use EDITED terragen renders in production backgrounds. I highly doubt anyone would use TG2's own clouds, since it looks like theres no real controll, and it would be better to comp it anyway. As a stand-alone rendering platform however Terragen is weak, and empowers way too many people who know very little about what it takes to be a 3d modeler, animator, texture monkey, GI-Diety. Not to say all people who use TG are uneducated in the field of 3d, many people use it in conjunction with photoshop, but I see way too many people posting strait TG renders like its something special on its own. Its about a bad a fad as cheap poser editing.

AA_Tyrael
12-13-2005, 04:58 PM
but why is poser and terragen "cheap" ?

Why is it, that manipulating vertexes,applying complex boolean logic,simulating cloth, taming the reality "beast"(aka renders) through Maya,XSI Mental Ray and other software is "OK" ?

How about you make ur next TV AD banner the old way

Through Assembly...


I hope u got my "point"

slaughters
12-13-2005, 04:58 PM
CupOWonton (http://member.php?u=136668) - You seem to be slamming the software because it's easy for many people to make sub par images with it. I agree, but I have also seen a lot of sub par Maya/MAX/Softimage/"insert Brand X 3D product" images as well.

A better question is, can a resonably talented person make a reasonably good image with Brand X 3D product?

With Terragen 1 the answere would be - No/Maybe. It takes a very talented individual to make a good image with it. It was good in it's day, but that day was 5 or 6 years ago. Bianco and Giuli are not just reasonably talented. They are very very excellently talented. I could never get the results they do with Terragen 1.

With Terragen 2 then the answere would be - Maybe/I have high hopes. The render's so far look great. But we won't know what kind of options or controls the artist will have until a demo, or snapshot of the gui is released.

talos72
12-13-2005, 06:47 PM
So how much will TG2 be? I didn't see any price quotes on the site...only you would get $100 off if you buy TG 0.9 now which means TG2 will be more expensive, but by how much.:rolleyes:

I do wonder how close TG2 will be to the version Digital Domain uses. I have seen people working with DD's version and it is really nice stuff and they have written a special dynamic cloud generator for their version (if I am not mistaking).

Roter Baron
12-13-2005, 08:51 PM
There were many "Is Terragen cheap?" threads here regarding version 0.9.

But... Terragen 2 will be a completely different world, forget the old arguments for a moment. We will see in the near future when more people publish their work. Many hungry users out there...

@ leuey: Thanks, glad you like it. *g*

- Karsten

WyattHarris
12-13-2005, 09:32 PM
Good ol' Terragen. Loved that program ever since Matt introduced it to the LW newsgroups, what, 7-8 years ago.

I've mostly noticed Terragen graphics popping up as Skyboxes for games. Serious Sam is the first that comes to mind. Always did a good job with background terrain as it should. Besides that it's always being integrated into different parts of game development in combination with Photoshop.

pixelmonk
12-13-2005, 09:55 PM
[QUOTE=slaughters]CupOWonton (http://member.php/?u=136668) - You seem to be slamming the software because it's easy for many people to make sub par images with it. I agree, but I have also seen a lot of sub par Maya/MAX/Softimage/"insert Brand X 3D product" images as well.

[QUOTE]


bah.. I wouldn't take too much stock in what CupBlowWonton is spewing. Another elitest wannabe flushed down the toilet by reality.

CupOWonton
12-13-2005, 10:16 PM
[QUOTE=slaughters]CupOWonton (http://member.php/?u=136668) - You seem to be slamming the software because it's easy for many people to make sub par images with it. I agree, but I have also seen a lot of sub par Maya/MAX/Softimage/"insert Brand X 3D product" images as well.

[QUOTE]
bah.. I wouldn't take too much stock in what CupBlowWonton is spewing. Another elitest wannabe flushed down the toilet by reality.

Hey now, I make quite a good living doing archvis. And unlike many who I've seen try to argue the same point as myself, I actualy took time to test TG out.
My point is that, pretty much, nearly every render I see, be it from medeocre or 'professional' TG user, it still looks CG, and it still needs photoshopping. And sure, TG renders work well as a skybox, it retains the CG look that people are use to seeing.

Many see it as sort of the "photoshop lenseflare" of the 3d world.

I would also never suggest anyone use an HDRI generated from Terragen, it normaly causes red, yellow, blue, or green spots to appear randomly across the geometry. At least thats my experience with the Evermotion set.

The render engine underneath TG however is different. I DO like the fact it handles subdivision geometry so well, though there arent any serious render benchmarks+animation that Ive seen. But other renders do prety much the same thing now a days through dynamic resource management. I would like a good controlable animated clouds generator for 3dsmax without having to buy a plugin though.

And Pixelmonk, Im pretty sure the mods dont look kindly on personal attacks against other members of the forum.

Gunnah
12-14-2005, 03:08 AM
"My point is that, pretty much, nearly every render I see, be it from medeocre or 'professional' TG user, it still looks CG, and it still needs photoshopping. And sure, TG renders work well as a skybox, it retains the CG look that people are use to seeing."

I cant offhand think of any type of render out there that doesnt have some type of post done to it. As well, not to slam the industry you're in, but most archViz stuff isn't all that photoreal itself ;) I can point you to a billion examples if you need them :)


"I would also never suggest anyone use an HDRI generated from Terragen, it normaly causes red, yellow, blue, or green spots to appear randomly across the geometry. At least thats my experience with the Evermotion set."


that's actually the *renderers* problem, not the hdr... a lot of the renderers out there have a little finessing you have to do that remove said problem. (if it's max you're using, do a seach for bright pixels with HDR, I'm sure you'll find threads here or on discreet support board)

" Many see it as sort of the "photoshop lenseflare" of the 3d world."

many who in what field? I can think of a ton of folks I know that have used terragen in some capacity for production work. It's a tool, pure and simple... anything that makes you job easier is a tool, pure and simple ;)



now, poser on the other hand........



G

JavaJones
12-14-2005, 09:08 AM
CupOWonton seems to be drawing a lot of conclusions about TG2's controllability and capability, but I'm not sure what information he's basing these conclusions off of. Considering most of them seem to be wrong, I think it's safe assume he's just being negative because that's what he's good at.

A screenshot of (part of) the GUI is in the announcement that is the original subject of this thread and as you'll note it is a node network, which most of you are probably familiar with. Obviously you can't assume too much from that, but in my experience with such UI's they are seldom used unless the underlying application is pretty flexible and powerful and indeed that is what Terragen 2 is being aimed at. It remains to be seen how well Planetside will achieve that, but judging the functionality and flexibility of the release version based on the few currently published images, created by a handfull of early testers, seems pretty ludicrous to me. There's nothing wrong with healthy skepticism, but it only makes sense to reserve judgment until product release. There's no value in trying to extrapolate usage and flexibility from the little functional information currently available.

- Oshyan

google monkey
12-14-2005, 12:39 PM
http://www.terranuts.com/photopost/data/501/Fx22snowfxfaded.jpg
http://www.terranuts.com/photopost/data/501/24d.JPG
http://www.terranuts.com/photopost/data/501/3b.JPG
http://www.terranuts.com/photopost/data/501/sunset_mountains.jpg

all with some post production, always been amazed at some of the quality it can produce.:)

Fides
12-14-2005, 03:55 PM
So I take it Terragen doesn't do trees or foliage?

MooseDog
12-14-2005, 05:06 PM
not in it's current incarnation. the pre-alpha release scheduled for january does though, to the extent that the two programs cannot really be compared in functionality (according to the developer and beta-testers). should be a ton of fun to play with:scream:.

Zarf
12-15-2005, 12:39 AM
As a stand-alone rendering platform however Terragen is weak, and empowers way too many people who know very little about what it takes to be a 3d modeler, animator, texture monkey, GI-Diety. Not to say all people who use TG are uneducated in the field of 3d, many people use it in conjunction with photoshop, but I see way too many people posting strait TG renders like its something special on its own. Its about a bad a fad as cheap poser editing.

The advance of technology always has a democratizing effect by taking that which was previously the domain of a few 'elite' and making it accessible to the masses. Every time this happens there are those who protest. All the noise and bother made by these people inevitably has (thankfully) zero net effect in reversing the course of events.


Regards
Xarf

Wizdoc
12-15-2005, 01:15 PM
I like Terragen. I produces some pretty neat results with little to no tweaking.

That said, what I don't like about it (in its current version, 0.9?) is that it's maybe even too self-contained application. It's hard to integrate into a bigger pipeline. I'm not saying it's impossible, but for example getting out multiple passes and importing/exporting animation data is a hassle.

But then again, in terms of advancements in the whole field of 3D, the core of the old Terragen is pretty dated, so it's hard to hold incompatibility with the "cutting edge" against it. They're doing a big overhaul with the TGD and it looks extremely promising.

Rids
12-15-2005, 04:30 PM
Just about all Terragen and Terragen 2 have in common is that they are both landscape rendering tools, it seems pointless to compare one with the other. The new version is being developed with production use as its goal and so I imagine pipeline integration is pretty high on the agenda. It may not be there for the tech preview but when the pro version ships its likely to be pretty well equiped. I think people should wait and see what can really be achieved with this program before passing judgement, we've seen very little of its capabilities to date but that should change once the main users get their hands on it.

Nadril
12-16-2005, 02:57 AM
Just adding a bit, but comparing TGD and TG is like comparing The latest version of 3d studio max to Bryce 1 :). I'm eagerly awaiting TGD's arival right now. Yes, i'm a large terragen user, but I find it to be more like photography than anything, you just have more options, ect. There is no "give me an awsome landscape and camera angle" - button. :D.

trakeen
12-16-2005, 03:33 AM
it's good to see them actually working on TG2, it had been so long since I had seen any updates I thought the program was dead

If anyone wants to take a look at another node based planet modeling app, you want pandromedia's mojoworld, which has most of the features of TG2, and some that TG2 doesn't mention (like fractal river networks). One of the neat things about mojoworld is the parameterbombs, which allows you to locally edit terrain (you blend the fractal of the bomb together with the global planet fractal using a curve editor). mojoworld is horrible at animation as it's camera system is really primitive (no paths without 3rd party plugins and they were extremly buggy when I worked with them, like a lot of the time the camera wouldn't follow the path when told to animate). There is also no volumetric clouds or motion blur in mojoworld (there is a very experimental plugin to add volumetic clouds but it was very very very slow when I tested it, and to complex for me to figure out since there wasn't any documentation with it)

Hopefully TG2 will intergrate with the major 3d apps better then mojoworld does since mojoworld doesn't really intergrate with other apps at all (there is a mesh export out of the program but the mesh's are really huge, and half the time I couldn't get them to import into 3dsmax)

CupOWonton
12-16-2005, 06:31 AM
The advance of technology always has a democratizing effect by taking that which was previously the domain of a few 'elite' and making it accessible to the masses. Every time this happens there are those who protest. All the noise and bother made by these people inevitably has (thankfully) zero net effect in reversing the course of events.


Regards
Xarf

... of course now I have to ask, how is this an advancement in technology? What are they adding to TG that does not exist in any other program out there? Sure, it's an advancement in Terragen's program, but theyre just trying to play catchup with other apps. My respect goes to Blender and all the hard work into making it a widerange 3d modeling, animation, and rendering app with YafaRay and the custom python scripts people have written for creating numerous effects and environmental generators.

I dont remember anyone trying to stop TG from being developed or used, so what is this " course of events" that you think the self proclamed 'elite' are tying to stop? I dont see anyone arguing against the fact TG renders make good for painting over. And sure, the people who love seeing dem scans of mars are going to love using terragen to view it all with their 'LEET' 3d glasses. Though, im sure everyone is as excited as I am to see more terragen flythroughs of mars and pluto on the discovery channel. :bounce: No, seriously, theyve been reanimating sequences for an old 70's show called Cosmos, its amazing.

I personaly see most TG renders as sort of a digital form of throwing paint on canvase; yes, even some of the 'realy realy realy 1337' renders :rolleyes: . Sure, you have some controll, you find a base landscape/canvase, you take your paint/fractals, and you get to tossin. Painting on top of that could make for some very awsome textural results though, which is why I would never deny that Terragen has great uses as a matte painting base. 3dsmax's version of "tossing paint" is usualy someone finding out about the Greeble Plugin for the first time in their lives, oh the joy of seeing 40 billion greeble renders on the internet. The Glass Teapot surely comes in second on that list, and the raytrace skylight "clay"render comes in third. And of course with Bryce, who could forget the timeless "Metallic Ball over 100% water" renders. I think my all time favorite is still the nude poser woman in statuesque pose with 1 area light to light the whole image and a gleaming photoshop lenseflare bouncing off both her nipples and whatnot. Im sure all of that is just blasphemy to the TG elite.

chrisWhite
12-16-2005, 06:47 AM
Wow, I'm not sure I've ever seen more people dissed in a single post :D

I'm excited to see what else come of TG 2.0. If Matt does for a professional pipeline what he did for hobbiests this could be really cool.

DotPainter
12-16-2005, 09:44 AM
Cup O Wanton Madness,

That was mad funny! My vote for best post of mass destruction of 2005!

Lone Deranger
12-16-2005, 10:32 AM
Well... you know what they say.... A bad craftsman always blames his tools. :)

I'm quite excited about TG2. My only worry is the pace of it's development. For the moment as far as I can gather it's just two people working on it. Reading through the posts on the mailinglist it appears there's still a lot of work to do. Let's hope PlanetSide can follow a more consistant roadmap that it has in the past. If they can I'll shell out for a license.

JoeBananas
12-16-2005, 11:31 AM
TG2 does look very handy, be interesting to see what the foliage looks like though. I've been using Vue Infinite resently in some of my illustrations, and the way that handles huge amounts of foliage is amazing. There just nothing else on the market that can handle that many polys, and I suspect TG2 is going to similar in that respect. As an example, my last Vue scene contained 20 Billion polys - try and get that to render in a normal 3D app!

Always use the best tools for the job. I don't really care if some 3D fanboy doesn't consider landscape apps 'real' 3D tools. When you're a professional you use the tools that get the job done the fastest way, and to the highest quality that is possible in the time available. Then you move on to the next job. Time = money, end of story.

Zarf
12-16-2005, 01:10 PM
... of course now I have to ask, how is this an advancement in technology? What are they adding to TG that does not exist in any other program out there? Sure, it's an advancement in Terragen's program, but theyre just trying to play catchup with other apps.

<SNIP>

It seems I wasnt alltogather clear with my point in my original post. The point is that there is nothing wrong with programs like terragen/bryce/poser enabling 'normal' users to play around with 3d (as your post seemed to strongly imply). Your whole line of reasoning reminded me of so many 'fine artists' horrified reaction to the invention of photography.

Not sure why you bring Blender and Yafray into the discussion...

regards,
Xarf

Cageman
12-16-2005, 01:13 PM
make me want to sale my VUE:curious: ... oops, it tied with LW...:banghead:

Wow.. let me get this straight. You want to sell something you virtually didn't pay for? How much did you pay for your LW-upgrade with free v.9 + VUE 5? $395?

CupOWonton
12-16-2005, 04:16 PM
Wow.. let me get this straight. You want to sell something you virtually didn't pay for? How much did you pay for your LW-upgrade with free v.9 + VUE 5? $395?

Hahha, now Im sure someone tried selling their Max 7.5 upgrade.

JavaJones
12-17-2005, 10:13 PM
It's true, any tool that makes it easier to achieve any result is really just taking away the artistry from the artist. True artists paint only with their bodies and what pigment they can produce with them - yellow and brown mostly. ;)

Seriously though, I've never understood the more control = better art argument. No photographer can control the weather or move or reshape the mountain range they are photographing. They don't control the placement of snow, or the trees. They simply capture it the way it is. Or in a city, they do not dictate where the buildings were placed, or how tall. They simply see it in a unique way and try to transfer that info an image that others can appreciate. That too is art, yet there is very little "control" in it. Art is not about the exercise of control, it is about expression. Terragen, C4D, Maya, Xenofractal, Paint Shop Pro, Painter, on and on, all are capable of art. It is the user which may not be. :p

But perhaps some don't care about art, only professional use. Certainly Terragen can be criticized for its lack of support for integrating with other apps for professional workflows. Despite that it has been used in more effects shots in films than Vue has. So the professionals speak with their wallets and their time as far as that is concerned. Terragen 2 will make integration far easier and it will be a very suitable product for any landscape needs. But if you don't have landscape needs, then it's not going to be useful to you. Nothing wrong with that, it's a tool designed for a specific purpose. You can't really criticize its limitations as a result when it's not trying to do more. :D

All I know is ultimately you *will* see at least small film makers, and possibly even many larger productions, moving to largely digital backgrounds. Why fly to New Zealand with your whole crew and all your actors (or even a 2nd unit) at great expense when there will be a rendering tool that can create the same effect with your actors comfortably at home in a cheaper stage environment? I mean whether it's Terragen, Vue, Maya, or whatever, it's going to happen, and which app is used will mostly be a matter of what gets you the results you want the fastest and easiest. Sure you could get the same result in Maya as you could in Terragen or Vue, but if Maya takes 10 times longer to do it, why bother? Just because there's more work involved? Does that somehow make it better? Not if you're paying for the time, only if you're looking to quote absurdly high piece creation times on some internet forum so people will be impressed. :p

So eventually programs like Terragen are probably going to be seeing quit regular use in film and TV, and everyone's just going to have to accept their utility along side good old standbys like Maya, Lightwave, etc. And meanwhile people who have been creating amazing landscape photos all their life are going to have competition from people creating amazing digital landscapes, which will eventually be hung in the same galleries, displayed side-by-side in many cases. Maybe the digital landscapers will even get mad respect because they spent 200 hours creating the entire scene, while the photographer next door only spent an hour on a hike, 2 minutes taking the photo, and another hour developing it. After all, time input = art output, right?

Anyway, might as well get used to it all now, embrace the revolution. ;)

- Oshyan

Nichod
12-18-2005, 12:31 AM
Oshyan Pulled the thoughts from my head. Nothing more I can say that hasn't been said. I WILL say that I'm looking forward to TG2. Another 3D application on the scene is always an exciting experience, lets hope it lives up to the hype it has been surrounded with.

erlik
12-18-2005, 08:19 AM
My only worry is the pace of it's development.

Yup. I think that the first TGD image* appeared about a year ago and they are still very NOT near completion. And the announcements are very long in coming. And they keep pushing back the release date.

* CupOWonton, that first image I saw was the mountain top with volumetric clouds. Maybe it can be said it was "CG" landscape, but it's still the best "CG" landscape that I've seen, either in films or in stills.

Image (http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tgd/gallery/gallerypage.php?item=11&ind=15&group=)

Nichod
12-18-2005, 10:46 AM
Yup. I think that the first TGD image* appeared about a year ago and they are still very NOT near completion. And the announcements are very long in coming. And they keep pushing back the release date. The reason for the delay was that the developers DAY job limited what he could work on and when. Now that is not the case. The active development on TG has only been a little over a year if I remember correctly.

erlik
12-18-2005, 05:22 PM
The reason for the delay was that the developers DAY job limited what he could work on and when. Now that is not the case.

That's very nice to hear. Hope TGD appears soon.

kabojnk
01-11-2006, 06:42 PM
Well, it's almost near the end of January, and I am still waiting on the edge of my seat to see whether or not TG2 will be released on schedule. Matt hasn't really said too much else, which he's notorious for with previous releases--but at least he's always delivered relatively on-time.

Anyhoo, I've been an avid user of Terragen since its public appearance. While it blew me away at the time, I became increasingly critical of the program as its sense of realism slowly waned with the demand for more realistic-looking software--and the hundreds of galleries filled with 5-minute, poorly done renders.

I am excited for all of the goodies that are coming along. I'm going to have to break myself of the habit of using several third party programs to make a decent Terragen scene--something I think will be relatively easy. ;)

- The volumetric clouds is a great start, considering that the clouds always looked like crap.

- Vegetation! Finally! No more having to see people's interpretation of distant forestation by using a rugged blend of green colours or textures!

- Procedural terrain is going to be awesome. No more having to use programs like World Machine for making realistic terrains!

And there are lots more. Anyway, I really hope that the first release helps to satiate my hunger for a very powerful terrain generation and rendering program. I simply cannot wait! :buttrock:

the_zed_axis
01-12-2006, 08:51 AM
the next version of terragen certainly looks good but i certainly wouldnt be running out naked shouting eureka :)

i would like to say that the current version of terragen is just way tooo procedural for me and kinda falls into the category of poser daz3d etc so i am tempted to use it in my work

now something like vue is different ...it gives you procedural landscapes but you can add trees,import objects etc....so i hope terragen 2 goes that way and if it does that... then it is way behind in terms of development

CupOWonton
01-12-2006, 06:06 PM
the next version of terragen certainly looks good but i certainly wouldnt be running out naked shouting eureka :)

i would like to say that the current version of terragen is just way tooo procedural for me and kinda falls into the category of poser daz3d etc so i am tempted to use it in my work

now something like vue is different ...it gives you procedural landscapes but you can add trees,import objects etc....so i hope terragen 2 goes that way and if it does that... then it is way behind in terms of development

TG2 should let you import objects and such, but dont expect them to render out realy well. Also, I'm not sure if you'll be able to have animated objects. *not just objects in motion, but objects animated within themselves* TG2 still looks like theyre trying to fake all the illumination bounces with unlimited directional lights, gives it less realism.

andronikos916
01-19-2006, 02:12 AM
any more news? :banghead:

thanx,
Andronikos

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