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Iysun
12-07-2005, 04:24 AM
A $32 million fine.
Is it fine?

>--Source--< (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/biztech/12/06/south.korea.microsoft.ap/index.html)

scorpion007
12-07-2005, 04:27 AM
They should have to make that version of windows in all countries, not just South Korea.

At least someone is speaking up.

KolbyJukes
12-07-2005, 04:45 AM
i don't get this. why is MS's responsibility to provide links to competitor's products. It's not as if once you've got MSN installed you're unable to install trillian or AIM. Same with WMP, you're always able to install Realplayer (yeesh)...I don't see how it constitutes a monopoly by have it's OS preloaded with it's software.

PhantomDesign
12-07-2005, 04:45 AM
So, they can't distribute their IM or media player software - big fricking deal! That still doesn't help anything.

scorpion007
12-07-2005, 05:19 AM
I think the point is that you can't uninstall the software should you want to. In fact, the installation doesn't even give you a choice whether you want to have those components installed.

Jozvex
12-07-2005, 05:21 AM
It's totally rediculous!

When you buy a Playstation it doesn't have to offer you the choice of the XBox wallpaper or controllers, whilst coming with no controllers in the box. (or some other better analogy).

Geez!

scorpion007
12-07-2005, 06:02 AM
You cannot really compare consoles to PC's. Consoles are designed for simplicity, hence the limited amount of options and choices. PCs on the other hand are designed for control and power.
When you install MS Office or Adobe CS, you have a choice of which applications/components to install. If you dont need MS Access, you untick its box. Why should it waste your harddrive space if you dont need it. Same goes with the help assisstant in office, you can uncheck his install.
The installation of the operating system should give the same controls.

Jozvex
12-07-2005, 06:11 AM
But this isn't about harddrive space, it's about alternative software from competitors who think they're missing out on money or at least exposure.

When I install Office, yes I can choose to leave out Access or Frontpage, but it doesn't give me a list of Frontpage alternatives and link to their websites. I don't think it should have to either.

It's Microsoft Windows, not Windows OS - Sponsored by Microsoft.

scorpion007
12-07-2005, 06:33 AM
true, I agree with that. - though I do still think that choices should remain when installing/uninstalling.

storyForge
12-07-2005, 07:33 AM
u can actually uninstall wmp and windows messenger. i'd look under Control Panel >> Add or Remove Programs >> Windows Components.

storyForge
12-07-2005, 07:37 AM
sorry, not sure if this technically removes the software from your pc, but you wont have to deal w/ it anymore if you mess with that panel.

castelis
12-07-2005, 07:50 AM
I dont understand this tactics too. Monopoly is bad thing, ok. But this is ridiculous. There is allways choice. I have Trillian basic installed, together with Firefox, and using WMP10 all the time, no problem. It means there are no obstacles for competition to code and sell MS killer apps. But maybe they just having more fun from making MS killer lawsuits and regulations.

liquidik
12-07-2005, 09:13 AM
Yes this is really insane. I'm not a Microsoft addict but, true monopoly would be if someone is not able to install other player/software, which is not the case...and not one is complaining or have sued Adobe for buying Macromedia (where's the competition now?)...

Just my 2c

Gianmichele

isoparmB
12-07-2005, 09:26 AM
I think it has something to do with anti-bundling. People can't sell similar software if a competitor is already including it for free with another product. It's undestandable on the part of those making software like what windows has bundled.

Blazer
12-07-2005, 12:38 PM
It's just like we saw in that video someone posted a little while ago IE vs. Firefox.

Everyone that used Firefox had reasons (faster, more secure, etc') while the ones that used IE simply said that IE is all they ever used, didn't know of Firefox, and so on.

It is the issue of bundeling the software with the OS. I mean, they aren't offering any of this stuff for free. You're still paying for it when you buy the OS. They are abusing their market dominance in the OS market to abuse other markets. That's when Monopoly concerns are legit.

jeremybirn
12-07-2005, 01:19 PM
I don't see how it constitutes a monopoly by have it's OS preloaded with it's software.

Monopolies aren't illegal. Microsoft has a monopoly on mainstream PC operating systems, but that's not illegal, and not anything they'd be punished for.

The offense is when companies abuse their monopoly or near-monopoly positions to engage in anti-competetive trade practices. For example, using your monopoly in one market like OS's to tilt the playing field in another market, like application software: that could be an abuse of your monopoly position.

-jeremy

williamsburroughs
12-07-2005, 01:50 PM
Has anyone read the Fountainhead.

Bunch of S. Korean Toohey's! The world is full of second handers.

Yeesh.

Cheers,
-policarpo

PyRoT
12-07-2005, 01:57 PM
This has been said before but I'll say it again. Having windows come with all this software preloaded is great for people who are not computer smart. It would be a pain for such people to not be able to play their mp3's, videos or browse internet with windows out of the box. Imagine these people being forced to go and download some software. In the end, most would opt for the microsoft stuff anyway as its a brand they know and so I don't think it would change much in terms of monopoly but it would make things a hassle.

Asking a user to choose if they want certain features is part of custom setup which is not recommended for the people mentioned above. While it would be nice, I don't think many n00b users would really use it. These people want a next>next>next click and play experience.

jeremybirn
12-07-2005, 03:01 PM
These people want a next>next>next click and play experience.

But then why does Microsoft prohibit PC vendors from being able to bundle more software into the install? Every PC vendor needs to sign Microsoft's contract to resell wholesale Windows licenses, and it would be great if those mandatory contracts the whole industry has to sign didn't limit them in what can be preconfigured for the users in their market, wouldn't it?

-jeremy

pgp_protector
12-07-2005, 05:01 PM
But then why does Microsoft prohibit PC vendors from being able to bundle more software into the install? Every PC vendor needs to sign Microsoft's contract to resell wholesale Windows licenses, and it would be great if those mandatory contracts the whole industry has to sign didn't limit them in what can be preconfigured for the users in their market, wouldn't it?

-jeremy

I wish PC Venders wouldnt install ANY thing extra, Got a new system, and spent a day removing all the cR*$ that I didn't want.

AOL, ITunes, MusicMatch, MSN, ect ect ect. I just wanted a fast computer to run 1 program, and that's all. In the end, went out and bought a new licnes of the OS, and did a clean install. (System came with "RECOVERY CDs", that wouldnt even let you do a minimal install)

gavin_hughes
12-07-2005, 05:55 PM
But then why does Microsoft prohibit PC vendors from being able to bundle more software into the install? Every PC vendor needs to sign Microsoft's contract to resell wholesale Windows licenses, and it would be great if those mandatory contracts the whole industry has to sign didn't limit them in what can be preconfigured for the users in their market, wouldn't it?

-jeremy
yea.. i wonder how much more different you would handle business if it were your company...
i wouldnt want anything but my software bundle within my OS. i dont see anything wrong with that.

and as for people who buy pre-bundled PCs, they get what they ask for.
.. pre bundled PCs, as simple as that.

JeroenDStout
12-07-2005, 05:57 PM
When it comes to software people generally chose based on:
1) What do I know
and sometimes
2) What is cheaper & What is better

Per example, Open Office is not well known yet it's writing functions challenge Word to such an extent that Word is blown out of the water - and it's free! Yet people don't use it because - well, who ever heard of it?
I use MSN, but if I had chosen at the start I could be using Trillian now.

Microsoft is very keen on having their own -often inferior- software on the pc's as then you don't run into any problems in terms of people realising other people make software as well.

Jozvex
12-07-2005, 11:03 PM
This has been said before but I'll say it again. Having windows come with all this software preloaded is great for people who are not computer smart. It would be a pain for such people to not be able to play their mp3's, videos or browse internet with windows out of the box. Imagine these people being forced to go and download some software. In the end, most would opt for the microsoft stuff anyway as its a brand they know and so I don't think it would change much in terms of monopoly but it would make things a hassle.

Asking a user to choose if they want certain features is part of custom setup which is not recommended for the people mentioned above. While it would be nice, I don't think many n00b users would really use it. These people want a next>next>next click and play experience.

I totally agree! And imagine those n00bs buying Microsoft Windows and having a whole bunch of crazy freeware media players (and every other type of app because if one were allowed no doubt many would follow) taking up tons of additional space and potentially not playing well together or just being plain buggy (or adwared!!). They'd think Microsoft made all these apps too and most likely call Microsoft tech support when something goes wrong.

Windows would just degrade rapidly.

scorpion007
12-07-2005, 11:06 PM
Well, PyRoT, didn't MS make 2 versions of XP? A home and professional version? So instead of making them almost identical ('cept the price) they could have made the Home version nice and n00b friendly with your "next>next>next click and play experience" and made the professional version more for professionals, allowing us expert users to customize and streamline our workstations.

lestdog
12-07-2005, 11:26 PM
I can never really understand these law suits... I'm not an MS fan but this is thier product, so why can't they put what they want on it?

Should apple be sued because I can't install windows?

Apple should be sued for shutting down the Windows version of Shake then.

And where is the line drawn? Ms messanger -bad, Media Player -bad, Explorer? -okay MS can keep Explorer.

Don't really get it.

sdserbos
12-08-2005, 12:52 AM
I don't have anything against Microsoft. If Microsoft had not bought Softimage back in the late 90's we would still be running our "bread and butter" applications on inferior sgi's with a $20-30K pricetag. Oh... your power supply went up in flames? No maintenance? Too bad...That will be $4000 please. Cha-ching.... New mouse? $220 please. Cha-ching.... Or something like that....

Try asking for a Mac port back then... Sorry. This will only run on sgi. Now everyone wants everything ported to everything and anything. Which in it's turn, I imagine, drains some development resources... at least. Not to mention the carpal tunnel pain from typing all day in the sgi.... dir... ls -trlRa... ln -s this that...
tar -xv /user/people/soft/somerandomDB/RENDER_PICTURES/new/old/keep/trash/final/
chmod and chown... hahahhahha!!! I always found those funny.
vi was fun though...
:wq : )

jeremybirn
12-08-2005, 01:23 AM
If Microsoft had not bought Softimage back in the late 90's we would still be running our "bread and butter" applications on inferior sgi's with a $20-30K pricetag.
Microsoft actually bought Softimage in 1994, then sold BEFORE the Linux port of Softimage was released. I don't credit them with the move from IRIX to Linux at all.

The lasting legacy of Microsoft ownership is that every copy of Softimage XSI includes a built-in copy of Internet Explorer. ;)

-jeremy

ShadowHunter
12-08-2005, 02:11 AM
This is ridiculous. Next Microsoft will be sued for including Notepad in its operating system. :surprised The OS should be able to do basic things out of the box (like play media files, browse the web, and yes even chat with other users). Tell me does OSX not have a media player out of the box? or Linux?

Granted there should be an uninstall feature, but is that really worth $32M? I'll tell you: NO. Seems like these days you can sue for just about anything (like sueing for a couple million dollars worth of damages for a defect xbox360)...

Really, this is ridiculous beyound belief. And if this were any other company (like google getting sued for linking to gmail from google.com), people would be running for pitchforks. Thus forgive me for having sympathy for MS. :shrug:

Saurus
12-08-2005, 02:17 AM
I wouldn’t give MS any credit for porting Softimage into Linux, but I give MS (Window Softimage) credit for getting AW to porting Maya into Window. AW would probably like Maya to be exclusively run on SGI machines. Having all these 3D programs in Window definitely brought down their price…also brought down 3D artists salary!!

:sad:

sdserbos
12-08-2005, 02:29 AM
I wouldn’t give MS any credit for porting Softimage into Linux, but I give MS (Window Softimage) credit for getting AW to porting Maya into Window. AW would probably like Maya to be exclusively run on SGI machines. Having all these 3D programs in Window definitely brought down their price…also brought down 3D artists salary!!

:sad:

I try to think of it that the company profits now can go to paying people a good salary AND buying new equipment, rather than maintaining and upgrading overpriced, and much slower for that matter, machines. But I can see that there might be just as much truth in what you are saying.

PyRoT
12-08-2005, 02:50 AM
Well, PyRoT, didn't MS make 2 versions of XP? A home and professional version? So instead of making them almost identical ('cept the price) they could have made the Home version nice and n00b friendly with your "next>next>next click and play experience" and made the professional version more for professionals, allowing us expert users to customize and streamline our workstations.

Agreed. However, even n00bs want to have the best and proffesional is something they might get. I do support windows having more options in a custom panel for us advanced users but I am against n00bs having to download external programs if they arent too comfortable doing that. For the custom option, we could have a checklist of program such as Internet Explorer, Firefox and Opera and then windows would download firefox and opera if we clicked those options.

So I'd say taht we probably agree if you don't mind n00bs being able to keep clicking NEXT while we could take the cutom / advanced route and streamline our workstations. I know I'd love that :)
It does hurt though, knowing that many n00bs are missing out on the joys of Firefox. However, to a n00b, it probably wouldnt make too much difference..that is of course, AFTER you take out the security issues :P

Tomek

-Vormav-
12-08-2005, 04:02 PM
So, if Windows didn't come with WMP, what would that mean for people that don't even have an internet connection? You can't just give everyone urls for software.

mummey
12-08-2005, 04:50 PM
I think people are missing the point here. In this ruling, MS was trying to tell computer makers that they(the computer makers) could not pre-load any IM client or media player OTHER than Microsoft. This is abusing a monopoly.

Saurus
12-08-2005, 05:32 PM
Apple pre-load other software into their machine and so should MS…oops sorry, they both don’t do that.

mummey
12-08-2005, 05:45 PM
Apple pre-load other software into their machine and so should MS…oops sorry, they both don’t do that.

Are you seriously trying to compare Microsoft, a company whose OS runs on 90+% of the world's desktops from a variety of computer makers, with Apple, whose OS only runs on machines that they themselves make and account for less than 2% of all desktops?

Do you really want to sound that stupid?

Saurus
12-08-2005, 06:10 PM
Are you seriously trying to compare Microsoft, a company whose OS runs on 90+% of the world's desktops from a variety of computer makers, with Apple, whose OS only runs on machines that they themselves make and account for less than 2% of all desktops?

Do you really want to sound that stupid?

Give and take…these companies made *hit load of money off Microsoft’s OS then they should play by its rule. They don’t like it…then go make Linux base machine. Since Ipod has total domination in the MP3 market, I guess Apple should allow other online music service have access to its player…I don’t hear anybody yelling monopoly. And don’t tell me Apple is not using Ipod as a tool to get people into buying Apple computers.

lestdog
12-08-2005, 10:13 PM
Are you seriously trying to compare Microsoft, a company whose OS runs on 90+% of the world's desktops from a variety of computer makers, with Apple, whose OS only runs on machines that they themselves make and account for less than 2% of all desktops?

Do you really want to sound that stupid?

Yes, you should compare the two at all times because they are direct competitors...

ThE_JacO
12-09-2005, 08:30 AM
I think people are missing the point here. In this ruling, MS was trying to tell computer makers that they(the computer makers) could not pre-load any IM client or media player OTHER than Microsoft. This is abusing a monopoly.

stop saying things that could actually make sense please, and don't dare mentioning that a much better network and software (ICQ), even before the acquisition, died to a retarded piece of crap because the piece of crap came with the OS.

since when people ever let the whole factual evidence get in the way of some nice half arsed opinioning?

please go back to chatting on MSN now, and don't dare uninstall wmp10... oh wait, you can't.

tozz
12-09-2005, 08:34 AM
nlite

makes windows really sweet and you "miss out" on all the microsoft junk :)

mummey
12-09-2005, 12:47 PM
Yes, you should compare the two at all times because they are direct competitors...

Last I checked, there weren't MS branded computers, there were Dell's HP's and the ever lovable eMachines, but no MS's. Apple only makes the OS to go with their computers. They don't sell the OS; they sell the computer. No, they are not direct competitors.

lestdog
12-09-2005, 04:21 PM
Last I checked, there weren't MS branded computers, there were Dell's HP's and the ever lovable eMachines, but no MS's. Apple only makes the OS to go with their computers. They don't sell the OS; they sell the computer. No, they are not direct competitors.

I beg to differ, The average consumer buys a computer with an operating sytem installed... The consumer has a choice here... They want to buy a PC because maybe they like using windows or He buys a Mac because he wants to run OS...

How can that not make windows and MacOS competitors? That's exactly the consumer experience when they go into a Comp USA or something...

E_Moelzer
12-09-2005, 05:43 PM
So one question I need to ask here:
If Windows did not come with Internet Explorer, how would you get Firefox, Opera, etc (you cant download them of the web without a webbrowser, can you?)?
In regards to Media Players: I use Media Player Classic, but used to use the old Media Player as long as I could. Still have to use the new one for all the streaming stuff though. I wished people would not use to much streaming videos, they are annoying (I want to D/L them since I have a monthly D/L- budget and besides they never, never play without chopping anyway).
Oh and IMHO Apple is just as guilty as M$ (you have to install Itunes if you want Quicktime7????) , but since they dont have as much money, sueing them is not as much "fun", I guess...
CU
Elmar

mummey
12-09-2005, 05:50 PM
I beg to differ, The average consumer buys a computer with an operating sytem installed... The consumer has a choice here... They want to buy a PC because maybe they like using windows or He buys a Mac because he wants to run OS...

How can that not make windows and MacOS competitors? That's exactly the consumer experience when they go into a Comp USA or something...

Does Mac OS run on generic x86 computers?: Answer: No
Does Windows run on Mac Hardware?: Answer: No

In fact, two of the most popular apps for Mac OS are:

Microsoft Office
and
Microsoft Virtual PC

"If it don't fit... You must acquit!" ;)

ShadowHunter
12-09-2005, 06:30 PM
stop saying things that could actually make sense please, and don't dare mentioning that a much better network and software (ICQ), even before the acquisition, died to a retarded piece of crap because the piece of crap came with the OS.

since when people ever let the whole factual evidence get in the way of some nice half arsed opinioning?

please go back to chatting on MSN now, and don't dare uninstall wmp10... oh wait, you can't.
Yes, because we all know that windows never comes with any junk preinstalled by the computer manufacturers. :rolleyes:
God, I wish all I'd get is the windows professional version, and no junk that my laptop's manufacturer decided I needed. As for ICQ, I still use it daily. It connects to a wide range of networks including MSN. If anything at least on this OS you've got more choices than you can dream of. And there's a reason for it: MS developer support is unprecedented. MSDN alone is a goldmine of information.

JeroenDStout
12-09-2005, 08:37 PM
And there's a reason for it: MS developer support is unprecedented. MSDN alone is a goldmine of information.
That'd be depressing :) I browse the DirectX documents often and they are
1) Often incompatable with C++ and use C# for exactly the functions I need
2) "Preliminairy and subject to change", printed red above the artice, with the statement MS can't be held responsible for any difference
3) Annoying

Still, from what I'm told it's better as OpenGL and things like Ogre..

ShadowHunter
12-09-2005, 08:56 PM
That'd be depressing :) I browse the DirectX documents often and they are
1) Often incompatable with C++ and use C# for exactly the functions I need
2) "Preliminairy and subject to change", printed red above the artice, with the statement MS can't be held responsible for any difference
3) Annoying

Still, from what I'm told it's better as OpenGL and things like Ogre..Yeah good documentation for OpenGL is scattered across a number of pages. Still I prefer OpenGL over DirectX because it's so much easier to program for. I find MSDN is very well organized and I can not only find examples of code that I'm often looking for, but also complete referneces for the APIs. If your company is fairly large you can also get free support from MS. I know first hand that they'll go out of their way to to provide you with tools & information that you need.

lestdog
12-09-2005, 10:16 PM
Does Mac OS run on generic x86 computers?: Answer: No
Does Windows run on Mac Hardware?: Answer: No

In fact, two of the most popular apps for Mac OS are:

Microsoft Office
and
Microsoft Virtual PC

"If it don't fit... You must acquit!" ;)

This is the last thing I'll say about it, so Mummy you can have the last word. The point is, when people consider buying a computer they have a choice. Alot of people debate within themselves.. should I buy A PC with windows or an Apple.. that's it!.. Don't make it complicated.. Both microsoft and Apple need to compete to win over the consumer... so it's compition...

you're trying argue that windows doesn't have a competitor... this is simply not true.. sorry.. it's not...

mummey
12-09-2005, 11:18 PM
This is the last thing I'll say about it, so Mummy you can have the last word. The point is, when people consider buying a computer they have a choice. Alot of people debate within themselves.. should I buy A PC with windows or an Apple.. that's it!.. Don't make it complicated.. Both microsoft and Apple need to compete to win over the consumer... so it's compition...

you're trying argue that windows doesn't have a competitor... this is simply not true.. sorry.. it's not...

No I'm not. I arguing that MS is trying to sell an OS, matter what type of computer it ends up on. Apple is just selling computers.

Saurus
12-10-2005, 12:39 AM
No I'm not. I arguing that MS is trying to sell an OS, matter what type of computer it ends up on. Apple is just selling computers.

All you have to do is look at Apple’s advertising. A good chunk of their Ads are comparing themselves to MS…and this has been going on since Apple’s existence. They are selling OS and hardware (which a good chunk is not made by Apple) is extra profit for them.

mustique
12-10-2005, 12:26 PM
MS could easily eliminate any lawsuits if they'd include install options for WinXp.
But MS doesn't do it because they have big ambitions and they think they can handle it.

I'd want to be able to choose if I want Messenger, moviemaker etc... Yes noobs would "press next>next>..." anyway but that would be their problem then, not mine and not MS'.

Vista is sad to be coming in lots of flavors. Let's hope that MS will do
the right thing this time and includes a barebone Vista version among them.

ShadowHunter
12-10-2005, 06:42 PM
MS could easily eliminate any lawsuits if they'd include install options for WinXp.
But MS doesn't do it because they have big ambitions and they think they can handle it.

I'd want to be able to choose if I want Messenger, moviemaker etc... Yes noobs would "press next>next>..." anyway but that would be their problem then, not mine and not MS'.

Vista is sad to be coming in lots of flavors. Let's hope that MS will do
the right thing this time and includes a barebone Vista version among them.I agree there should definitely be more options during install (or at least it should be possible to remove the components afterwards). The beta did not have many choices during the install, hopefully this will be fixed in beta 2.

JosephGoss
12-10-2005, 10:02 PM
A $32 million fine.
Is it fine?

>--Source--< (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/biztech/12/06/south.korea.microsoft.ap/index.html)


32 million is not really making microsoft pay , it it?

other compainies in microsofts past have sued for hundreds of millions, microsoft paid nearly half a billion for rareware and mr gates has a personal fortune of around 30 - 40,000 million, 32 is nothing,

Beamtracer
12-13-2005, 02:28 AM
Since Ipod has total domination in the MP3 market, I guess Apple should allow other online music service have access to its player…I don’t hear anybody yelling monopoly. And don’t tell me Apple is not using Ipod as a tool to get people into buying Apple computers.

There's nothing unlawful about having a monopoly.

It becomes unlawful when the company with a monopoly in one area uses (or abuses) that monopoly to create another monopoly in a different area. This is what Microsoft was convicted of doing in the DoJ court case.

Now that Apple has 70%+ of the music player market, they must also be careful not to abuse that position to create new monopolies elsewhere.

Interesting that the portable music players still get referred to as "mp3 players", when most of them (ie the iPod) use the superior MPEG-4 (AAC) as their preferred audio format.

Compaq used to install Quicktime players on every Windows PC they sold. That was until Microsoft threatened them and so Compaq stopped doing it. This is the kind of behavior that is illegal and wrong.

I think South Korea is brave to stand up to the Microsoft monopoly. Microsoft execs got let off lightly with a small fine, instead of being sent to prison and fed a diet of kimchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi)!

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