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Srek
12-06-2005, 04:02 PM
3D software developer MAXON is pleased to announce the first completely integrated professional CINEMA 4D module for the creation of hair, fur and feathers.






MAXON, December 6, 2005 - Known simply as "HAIR", this new module lets users quickly and easily add astonishingly realistic hair to objects. The hair can be styled using HAIR's extensive tool palette, and a custom 3D shader gives artists complete control over the appearance of the hair. HAIR is not only easy to use, it's very fast, offers excellent rendering quality, and requires very little memory. An average configuration can easily render millions of hairs.

http://www.maxon.net/pages/dyn_files/dyn_htx/htx/1558/01558_01559_1.jpg (http://www.maxon.net/pages/dyn_files/dyn_htx/htx/1558/01558_01559_1_l.jpg) HAIR adds to MAXON's already impressive array of features for character designers. Characters will come alive through the combination of HAIR and the MOCCA module, which includes the cloth simulation tool, Clothilde. Naturally, all features work seamlessly together within CINEMA 4D. The editor view is updated in real time and the preview quality can be adjusted as desired.

Much attention was given to achieving a high level of interactivity. An extensive and intuitive toolset was created with over a dozen tools, such as brush, comb, curl and cut. The look of the hair is defined by a special HAIR shader. In addition to such properties as shine, frizz and thickness, a texture can also be loaded to define a color pattern for the hair.

Dynamic forces, including collision detection, can be used while styling and animating the hair. Forces such as gravity, wind, turbulence or twist can be used to create breathtaking animations. HAIR also offers an impressive cache functionality, which makes viewing the effects of dynamics or preparing a file for network rendering a breeze. Artists can even edit individual frames after they've been cached.

MAXON HAIR requires CINEMA 4D R9.5. Special introductory prices are available until Dec. 31, 2005.

http://www.maxon.net



About MAXON Computer
MAXON Computer is the developer of professional 3D modeling, painting, animation and rendering solutions. Its award-winning products have been used extensively in the film, television, science, architecture, engineering and other industries. MAXON products have been used for and in Polar Express, The Flight of the Phoenix, Hero, Van Helsing, King Arthur, Spiderman, Spiderman 2, Haunted Mansion, Cat in the Hat, Charlie's Angel's-Full Throttle, Star Wars 2-The Attack of the Clones, The Mummy Returns, Gladiator, Tomb Raider, the new Columbia-TriStar Film Logo, the On-Air Packages for Comedy Central, Monday Night Football, Discovery Channel Canada, Lucky, Touching Evil, King of Queens, Def on Demand, Power Puff Girls Music Video, Cher's "Song for the Lonely" Music Video, Inspector Gadget, The Emmys on CBS, TiVO, NBC, DirecTV, CBS NFL, Mad TV, Smart House, J.A.G., The WB, Fox Kids, The Fremont Street Experience and many more. MAXON has offices in Friedrichsdorf (Germany), Newbury Park (CA, USA), Bedford (UK) and Tokyo (JP).

Jonj1611
12-06-2005, 04:11 PM
Hi,


Nice, looks fantastic and something that is a "must have" for some users.

Well done Maxon :thumbsup:

Jon

talos72
12-06-2005, 04:29 PM
Just placed my pre-order...good deal too: $295! Nice Xmas gift...gotta love it. C4D users said hair, and Maxon delivered. It looks pretty well integrated to the main app...though it needs to be taken for a test ride.

Srek
12-06-2005, 04:32 PM
though it needs to be taken for a test ride.

Then go on and take it, the demo is already available :)

Cheers
Björn

michaeli
12-06-2005, 05:37 PM
Congratulations Maxon, u rock!:thumbsup:

http://www.3dfluff.com/janine/pics/texturemixing.jpg

http://www.3dfluff.com/janine/pics/haircollage.jpg

http://www.3dfluff.com/janine/pics/fuzzyvase.jpg
http://www.3dfluff.com/janine/pics/furrycoat.jpg


http://www.3dfluff.com/janine/pics/feather.jpghttp://www.3dfluff.com/janine/pics/moo.jpg

michaeli
12-06-2005, 06:23 PM
Hey, dude, these are unbelievable, u crazy boy! :eek:

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/images/modules/hair/symmetrycut.mov

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/images/modules/hair/haircreate.mov

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/images/modules/hair/hairstyle.mov

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/images/modules/hair/hairstyle2.mov

Srek
12-06-2005, 07:04 PM
A several images and animations done by betatesters can be seen in this thread
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=299821&page=1&pp=15

Cheers
Björn

williamsburroughs
12-06-2005, 09:26 PM
Awesome work guys as always!

Now take off a couple weeks since you've given us this great gift. :)

Cheers!

-policarpo

Per-Anders
12-07-2005, 04:47 AM
Sweet stuff, the styling tools and render speed (and quality) are insane! Nice that there's a demo too.

Jozvex
12-07-2005, 06:01 AM
I've just gone through the other thread on this and... this has to be the most amazing hair solution I've ever seen!! The styling in particular looks so easy!!

:eek:

mustique
12-07-2005, 08:29 AM
Those were the most beatifull and convicing demo videos I ever saw on Hair.
Now C4D has another tool that makes me envy. :shrug:

thematt
12-07-2005, 08:29 AM
it does look amazing must agree... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

efbie
12-07-2005, 11:45 AM
This tool looks really well done and i'm sure it will help a lot of cinema4D users, but there is something that dissapoints me. A quite similar hair system was available in blender months ago. It has quite the same feature set (totally interactive, forces, physics interaction, real time viewport preview, guides, real time hair painting, hyper fast, etc...) with some stronger points, and some weaknesses. Then hairs appears in cinema4D for +215€ and people are getting crazy about this "killer feature" saying it is a good deal.

So, flame me as much as you want, but as good as this system is, it looks overpriced.

http://orange.blender.org/wp-content/themes/orange/images/blog/hairstyletest.jpg
http://orange.blender.org/wp-content/themes/orange/images/blog/ED_promo.jpg
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/New_Particle_options_a.721.0.html
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Hair_Strand_Rendering.722.0.html

Video :
http://www.mentalwarp.com/~fred/divers/HairTutorial.avi (http://www.mentalwarp.com/%7Efred/divers/HairTutorial.avi)

Srek
12-07-2005, 12:13 PM
This tool looks really well done and i'm sure it will help a lot of cinema4D users, but there is something that dissapoints me. This hair system was available in blender months ago. It has quite the same feature set (totally interactive, forces, physics interaction, real time viewport preview, guides, real time hair painting, hyper fast, etc...) with some stronger points, and some weaknesses. Then it appears in cinema4D for +215€ and people are getting crazy about this "killer feature" saying it is a good deal.

I had a look at the blender hair solution and tough it is nice it is not comparable to the Maxon hair module imo.
Also please note that the Maxon Hair module is NOT identical to the Blender hair system, they are completely independent. Maybe only a misunderstanding here, but you are repeatedly writing of "this" hair system that is now available for CINEMA. It is NOT.

Cheers
Björn

efbie
12-07-2005, 12:40 PM
I had a look at the blender hair solution and tough it is nice it is not comparable to the Maxon hair module imo.
Also please note that the Maxon Hair module is NOT identical to the Blender hair system, they are completely independent. Maybe only a misunderstanding here, but you are repeatedly writing of "this" hair system that is now available for CINEMA. It is NOT.

Cheers
Björn
Sorry if i wasn't clear, i'll edit my post. Effectively, the blender hair system has a totally different backend, but feature wise, it looks quite similar. I looked all your hairs demos, and there is some impressive tools. Blender hairs lacks "by hair" physics interaction, (but it can do it by curve guide) and the hair styling tools aren't as advanced
I can't really judge C4D hair since i've not tried it, so maybe i'm missing things, but the final results presented in animations looks imo easily doable in blender.

imashination
12-07-2005, 01:32 PM
Go download the demo then :)

www.maxon.net

williamsburroughs
12-07-2005, 01:38 PM
Sorry if i wasn't clear, i'll edit my post. Effectively, the blender hair system has a totally different backend, but feature wise, it looks quite similar. I looked all your hairs demos, and there is some impressive tools. Blender hairs lacks "by hair" physics interaction, (but it can do it by curve guide) and the hair styling tools aren't as advanced
I can't really judge C4D hair since i've not tried it, so maybe i'm missing things, but the final results presented in animations looks imo easily doable in blender.

So why not just go ahead and use Blender if it works for you? It's like I always say, use what works for you and fits in your budget, cause in the end, it's all about how quickly you can create your art.

As far as the price goes, Hair systems generally cost and arm and a leg, and at the price Maxon is selling it for, I personally think it's a great deal. $295 is a steal.

I think you are missing the whole point of integration and workflow. While Blender is a free Open Source application, you cannot compare it to professional tools like C4D, XSI, 3dsmax, etc, because well, it's not production proven.

C4D provides one of the nicest workflows of all the commercially available apps (and I've used 3dsmax, LW, modo, XSI quite extensively) and the new C4D Hair Module truly shows why they excel at creating highly optimized workflow tools. Hair and Cloth are the latest editions of faster more robust tools coming from Maxon, and I personally welcome them.

Anyhow, if Blender is the solution you choose, then great, but Blender has nothing to do with the Announcement of Hair from Maxon. If you are really curious and want to compare Apples to Apples, I suggest you download the demo and give it a try. I think you will be impressed.

I know I am.

Cheers,
-policarpo

efbie
12-07-2005, 02:26 PM
So why not just go ahead and use Blender if it works for you? It's like I always say, use what works for you and fits in your budget, cause in the end, it's all about how quickly you can create your art. agree, that's why I use it.


Anyhow, if Blender is the solution you choose, then great, but Blender has nothing to do with the Announcement of Hair from Maxon.
Of course it has something to do, because when some new tool appears it is important to compare it to what already exists, to place the feature in it's context. If this was posted into the C4D forums, i wouldn't have replied that way, but since it is in the "news" i think that any argumented response has it's place.


If you are really curious and want to compare Apples to Apples, I suggest you download the demo and give it a try. I think you will be impressed.

That's what i'm doing right now, because i don't like to talk about things that i don't really know.

Srek
12-07-2005, 02:42 PM
That's what i'm doing right now, because i don't like to talk about things that i don't really know.
As always the prove is in the pudding :)
Looking forward to see what impression you get.

Cheers
Björn

sebek27
12-07-2005, 04:53 PM
once again the Maxon team comes out with something amazing ! I am so happy that I stayed with cinema 4d and will continue to use it for all my cg work! I appreciate all the hard work the maxon guys put into every release and module !

Per-Anders
12-07-2005, 09:06 PM
This tool looks really well done and i'm sure it will help a lot of cinema4D users, but there is something that dissapoints me. A quite similar hair system was available in blender months ago. It has quite the same feature set (totally interactive, forces, physics interaction, real time viewport preview, guides, real time hair painting, hyper fast, etc...) with some stronger points, and some weaknesses. Then hairs appears in cinema4D for +215€ and people are getting crazy about this "killer feature" saying it is a good deal.

So, flame me as much as you want, but as good as this system is, it looks overpriced.

http://orange.blender.org/wp-content/themes/orange/images/blog/hairstyletest.jpg
http://orange.blender.org/wp-content/themes/orange/images/blog/ED_promo.jpg
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/New_Particle_options_a.721.0.html
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Hair_Strand_Rendering.722.0.html

Video :
http://www.mentalwarp.com/~fred/divers/HairTutorial.avi (http://www.mentalwarp.com/%7Efred/divers/HairTutorial.avi)

i'm sorry, you can't be seriously comparing the two! lmao, especially not the workflow, rendering speed or quality.

i mean, good for you that you have this. but if you've not used a profesional level hair system then you really don't know the difference, interactivity itself isn't anything new, but good workflow is, and good well thought out tools.

this thread is about a release of a new product, but if i didn't know any better i'd say you were trolling.

LetterRip
12-08-2005, 12:51 AM
i'm sorry, you can't be seriously comparing the two! lmao, especially not the workflow, rendering speed or quality.

What sort of rendering speed and quality are you getting with the Cinema4D release? I've heard a number of good things about Cinema4Ds speed (mostly from their own claims :) ), but not anything really about quality. It would be interesting to see some complex benchmarks testing speed and animation quality comparisions for the various renderers available.

Regarding workflow speed I certaily agree that the styling capabilities shown in the Cinema 4D demo videos look quite nice.

LetterRip

Nichod
12-08-2005, 12:58 AM
The only thing that bothers me about C4D and prevents me from even seriously considering it is its upgrade structure. You buy the studio bundle for $2500. Then version 10 comes out you upgrade Cinema. Then you suddenly realize that you can't use the plugins you purchased. Its an additional $700-800 to upgrade the bundle etc. Now I would understand this pricing structure if all the plugins received updates, but they don't. Drop C4D to $1500. And get rid of the absurd upgrading path and I'd buy C4D tommorrow. Until then...there are plenty of other pieces of software that are just as useable.

That said. This implementation of hair looks amazing and maxon did an excellent job. Look forward to seeing more examples.

Per-Anders
12-08-2005, 03:35 AM
not sure where you get that nichod, there is a flat fee to upgrade from 9.0 to 9.5 - $295, that covers all modules and core regardless of how many modules you have. of course if you don't maintain your software keeping it up to date then it'll cost you more money.

tom - try it for yourself, the demo is available from the maxon website and you can see animations on the website showing the hair off in motion. the quality is excellent, and the c4d render engine is a great little gem, fast, dependable and production tested though weak in it's gi solution now, though if you want something a bit more bleeding edge you can of course get final render stage 2, maxwell~render or prman etc with the production bundle.

talos72
12-08-2005, 04:16 AM
I and other C4D users did have a bit of gripe about upgrade stuff (having forked up $50 per module to keep them running with the core app), but that was for the previous versions. Thankfully, for 9.5 upgrade Maxon has streamlined it with a one time upgrade fee that covers everything (as mentioned $295): no more nickle and dime for various modules.

As for the Hair module, I did download the demo. It is really simple to run, and doesn't really need "installation" either. So far, the Hair controls seem pretty simple as I was setting up and tweaking things in 10 minutes. This being my first experience with a Hair system after the mixed stuff I heard about difficulties with Shave. Either way, C4D will probably be my main app though I have a bunch of other ones too. It is just so much easier to set stuff up in C4D, and given I just bought the Hair module and already have FR...I got all the tools I need for my work.

Nichod
12-08-2005, 09:50 AM
not sure where you get that nichod, there is a flat fee to upgrade from 9.0 to 9.5 - $295, that covers all modules and core regardless of how many modules you have. of course if you don't maintain your software keeping it up to date then it'll cost you more money.

Interesting I was told by Maxon sales different information.

gavin_hughes
12-08-2005, 12:03 PM
C4D provides one of the nicest workflows of all the commercially available apps (and I've used 3dsmax, LW, modo, XSI quite extensively) and the new C4D Hair Module truly shows why they excel at creating highly optimized workflow tools.

Cheers,
-policarpo


yea... sure. and u came tot hat conclusion based on your own scientific studies yeah?

the hair modeule is cheap and u get what u pay for, so leave it at that.

no need to give your wise insights on which apps has the "nicest" workflow... who are you trying to convince... maybe yourself.

JamesMK
12-08-2005, 12:17 PM
yea... sure. and u came tot hat conclusion based on your own scientific studies yeah?

the hair modeule is cheap and u get what u pay for, so leave it at that.

no need to give your wise insights on which apps has the "nicest" workflow... who are you trying to convince... maybe yourself.

My quick scientific study of these statements leads me to the conclusion that you haven't tried the C4D Hair module.


.

Srek
12-08-2005, 12:20 PM
the hair modeule is cheap and u get what u pay for, so leave it at that.

Ups, have to hurry to our marketing and tell them to tripple the price. After all we can't be cought with to low prices compared to performance ;)

Cheers
Björn

HansoS
12-08-2005, 12:36 PM
This is one hell of a nice hair plugin. never been able to make some proper hair within 10 min. Just makes me feel like a kid again, playing around with different hair styles and changing them so fast.
Maxon suprised me again. It's a pity i'm not a C4D user.

the hair modeule is cheap and u get what u pay for, so leave it at that.

Well, uhmmmmmmmm..........give it a try??

talos72
12-08-2005, 03:59 PM
I guess there are consumers who believe that unless they pay an arm and a leg for a product, it can't be worth buying. Now that's the attitude the retailers would love to see more during the holidays.

Janine
12-08-2005, 06:42 PM
It would be interesting to see some complex benchmarks testing speed and animation quality comparisions for the various renderers available.

Bring it on. :)

LucentDreams
12-08-2005, 08:06 PM
in terms of speed, watch this video, keep in mind camtasia is also recording this so there is a small processor hit there. Not the times in the render window, with the really low settings (obviously not good for a final render of course) 0.44 seconds for 5000 hairs, even at its pixel size it still rendering within a seocnd of me releasing my mouse each time I brush, and thats not some fancy ogl preview or soemthing, its reendered, even with shadows at the end, and not a single shadow map spotlight, btu 6 shadow map omni (or point light.

My server:
http://www.lucentdreams.net/sniperhair2.mov


Two mirrors to be safe:
C4D Portal:
http://www.c4dportal.com/portal/for...p=4260#post4260 (http://www.c4dportal.com/portal/forum/showthread.php?p=4260#post4260)
3Dfluff:
http://www.3dfluff.com/clients/firs...sniperhair2.mov (http://www.3dfluff.com/clients/firstclass/sniperhair2.mov)

Srek
12-08-2005, 08:16 PM
Just playing a bit with a prefab lion model. 2.000.000 fur hairs and 30.000 for the mane.
2 soft shadow spots. Rendered in 8:37 on my 2.8 GHz P4 using less then 500 MB.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=86103

Cheers
Björn

Tibbar
12-08-2005, 10:48 PM
Why are people comparing it to Blender? They should really be examining its similarities to Joe Alter's Shave and a Haircut. In fact, he's not too pleased:

http://www.joealter.com/newSite/c4d.htm

Per-Anders
12-08-2005, 11:16 PM
Then it would be best to try it and you can compare fairly if you wish. Personally I see very little similarity beyond "it makes hair", which quite a few solutions do these days... as we've seen, even blender, of course if Joe doesn't feel he can be competative...

In my oppinion (after buying Shave and using both Hair and Shave) Hair is orders of magnitude superior in every department, it's a totally different toolset and set of concepts that is drastically better, a far superior render engine that is much faster and much much higher quality, and it's fully integrated, not in an external "Shave App", all in all it's a relief to work with after having had to use Shave for so long.

LucentDreams
12-09-2005, 12:17 AM
the only other hair system I'd say is on the same level for commercial solutiosn would be Ornatrix. Granted I haven't tried all solutions, but I'm very familiar with shave, maya hair, and ornatrix. Its cool to see a free opensource hair solutionbut I'd say that blender's still has a ways to go before its up to ornatrix and cinema Hair.

Nichod
12-09-2005, 02:14 AM
The fact of the matter, Joe had a partnership with Maxon, and they essentially developed an equivalent to his product behind his back. To me thats backstabbing. Of course this doesn't surprise me, considering how absurd the Maxon pricing structure is that they would alienate a partnership.

That said. The product still is an excellent solution to hair simulation from what I can tell.

LucentDreams
12-09-2005, 02:31 AM
The fact of the matter, Joe had a partnership with Maxon, and they essentially developed an equivalent to his product behind his back. To me thats backstabbing. Of course this doesn't surprise me, considering how absurd the Maxon pricing structure is that they would alienate a partnership.

That said. The product still is an excellent solution to hair simulation from what I can tell.

I'd say most of us don't know the full story or the true contract so we should mind our business in that respect.

Per-Anders
12-09-2005, 03:37 AM
Nichod, as per CGTalk policy - please don't troll!

I don't see how the price of C4D should be an issue (nor this product either) to yourself though as you're a Blender user anyway.

As already pointed out (and you can look for yourself on their website rather than keeping on posting/spreading misinformation), upgrade fees from 9.0 to 9.5 at $295, if you find that "absurd" then you should really take it up with Maxon rather than trying to troll this thread which happens to be about a new Hair system (somehow I'm not getting your chip on yoru shoulder being related). Their pricing policy seems rather good to me, especially the price of Hair.

As an additional note I'd also avoid posting rather strong accusations on a public forum without knowing all the facts (as kai pointed out most of us don't know the facts, iIsuspect you don't either).

------------------------------------------------

Anyhow back on track! Just messing around with this module, it's such a relief to have stuff like backlighting that's nice and fast (knocked this hair shader/setup up last night in 5 minutes quickly help explain some stuff to some C4D users in the C4D forum about backlighting and hair translucency), movie took 26 minutes ot render 300 frames (5.2 seconds per frame) on a single p4 3.0-

http://www.peranders.com/general/hairbacklighting.mov

http://www.peranders.com/general/backlighting01.jpg

SheepFactory
12-09-2005, 03:44 AM
Wow per! those are pretty impressive numbers :eek:

Nichod
12-09-2005, 09:12 AM
Nichod, as per CGTalk policy - please don't troll!

I don't see how the price of C4D should be an issue (nor this product either) to yourself though as you're a Blender user anyway.

As already pointed out (and you can look for yourself on their website rather than keeping on posting/spreading misinformation), upgrade fees from 9.0 to 9.5 at $295, if you find that "absurd" then you should really take it up with Maxon rather than trying to troll this thread which happens to be about a new Hair system (somehow I'm not getting your chip on yoru shoulder being related). Their pricing policy seems rather good to me, especially the price of Hair.

As an additional note I'd also avoid posting rather strong accusations on a public forum without knowing all the facts (as kai pointed out most of us don't know the facts, iIsuspect you don't either).


I'm not posting misinformation. I emailed maxon sales and was informed of its pricing structure and that it would be approximately $999 to upgrade the studio bundle, including all modules. From looking at the online store it appears the $295 is referring to the core app only, perhaps I'm completely wrong. If this is wrong, I'm curious why I was told this. I myself did not believe the pricing structure, but it has since verified by friends of mine who currently use C4D within their production enviroment.

And I may not know the full story, but I've been in contact with Joe regarding his shave and a haircut plugin since before the release of Hair, and Maxon very much stabbed him in the back. Now whether or not they truly did, that I do not know. I do know that he feels he was, and to me thats enough right now and I'd say its a fair assumption to make even if you were to read his letter from his website.

Also, saying that I am trolling is absurd. In every post I've made in this thread, I've state that this hair plugin seems incredibly well done and definetly appears to be a great hair solution for C4D. Its not as if I hunt around for C4D posts and do my best to be negative about the product. I do believe at its core that C4D as a whole is an excellent piece of software, just don't agree with its pricing structure, and there are many who would agree with me. If you don't agree with me...thats fine, no need to argue, but I'm free to say that I don't like something. And I'd be very pleased if a maxon responded in this thread in regards to the shave and haircut plugin, and corrected me if my pricing information is misinformed.

LucentDreams
12-09-2005, 09:25 AM
And I may not know the full story, but I've been in contact with Joe regarding his shave and a haircut plugin since before the release of Hair, and Maxon very much stabbed him in the back. Now whether or not they truly did, that I do not know. I do know that he feels he was, and to me thats enough right now and I'd say its a fair assumption to make even if you were to read his letter from his website.


Ahh yes one sides word means your well informed. I don't get how you can clearly state that they stabbed him in the back, then in your next sentence second guess your own statement.

I guarantee you I'm as informed if not more but I don't sit here and claim to know who is right or wrong and I'd advise you to do the same. Any back stabbing andsuch is between alter and maxon, and alters public email and secret posts show how he'd like to handle it. Let him handle his battle, we aren't involved and thats the way it should stay.

Per-Anders
12-09-2005, 09:50 AM
Nichod, please don't make me warn you again. Trolling is not acceptable behaviour on CGTalk.

If you need an explanation of how you are trolling and why you are a troll then very simply it is by trying to derail this thread.

I do not know what your particular issue is, i don't even think you search out C4D threads either, but perhaps you are merely upset that Blender and it's new hair solution was given a short shrift when other blender users attempted to troll/polute this thread earlier on.

If you just thought that Hair was excellent then that is all you need have mentioned but you did not, you do not need to be bashing Maxon or it's pricing policy whilst posting misinformation and supposition, and yes you are wrong with the price. You then went on to post such accusational comments as it wouldn't surprise you that Maxon would backstab other developers... based on their "absurd pricing structure" no less, which is interesting as that cornerstone of your argument appears to be falacy. I must concur with Kai that its for the best to not get involved in this battle. It is for these reasons that I must only conclude that you are trolling. If you weren't then you wouldn't feel the need to keep sniping.

LetterRip
12-09-2005, 11:41 AM
Nichod, please don't make me warn you again. Trolling is not acceptable behaviour on CGTalk.

If you need an explanation of how you are trolling and why you are a troll then very simply it is by trying to derail this thread.

Hmmm as far as I can tell the thread is about the new Maxon release and hair product. He has offered his opinion that he feels that it is overpriced, and that he feels that they dealt unethically with a previous partner on a hair product for Cinema4D.

Those both seem to be relevant comments, which, while they do not put Cinema4D in a flattering light (assuming he is correct) don't seem to me that they could constitute trolling?

I do not know what your particular issue is, i don't even think you search out C4D threads either, but perhaps you are merely upset that Blender and it's new hair solution was given a short shrift when other blender users attempted to troll/polute this thread earlier on.

While a search on Nichods nick reveals that he does indeed seem to be a Blender enthusiast - your comment seems a bit odd since only one poster has posted on Blender in this thread. While I felt his posting was inappropriate, you seem to be overstating things.

If you just thought that Hair was excellent then that is all you need have mentioned but you did not, you do not need to be bashing Maxon or it's pricing policy whilst posting misinformation and supposition, and yes you are wrong with the price.

Maybe he got a sales rep who made a mistake, or maybe Nichod misunderstood or miscommunicated something.

If you look at their pricing list they show

UPGRADES FROM R9 to R9.5 http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1tr.gif to CINEMA 4D XL/STUDIO R9.5 PC / Mac $295 http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1tr.gif Your C4D serial number: UPGRADES FROM R9 http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1tr.gif to CINEMA 4D XL R9 PC $1495 http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1tr.gif to CINEMA 4D XL R9 Mac $1495 http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1ind.gif http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1tr.gif to CINEMA 4D STUDIO R9 PC $2495 http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1tr.gif to CINEMA 4D STUDIO R9 Mac $2495 http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1ind.gif http://www.maxonshop.com/im/misc/1tr.gif to C4D ENGINEERING BUNDLE PC $1495

http://www.maxonshop.com/cgi-bin/us/gp?pg=products/upgrades.main&sid=&uid=&aid=&cid=100&rn=177

So if you have R9 it is far from clear what you will end up paying based on their website price sheet. 295? 1495? 2495? I suspect that the latter of the prices are based on upgrading from vanilla R9 to the more complete bundles, whereas the the first upgrade is based on already having one of the bundles and upgrading to the same bundle. However, given the presentation that is not clear at all.

LetterRip

Chewey
12-09-2005, 12:02 PM
Hmmm as far as I can tell the thread is about the new Maxon release and hair product. He has offered his opinion that he feels that it is overpriced, and that he feels that they dealt unethically with a previous partner on a hair product for Cinema4D.

Those both seem to be relevant comments, which, while they do not put Cinema4D in a flattering light (assuming he is correct) don't seem to me that they could constitute trolling?



While a search on Nichods nick reveals that he does indeed seem to be a Blender enthusiast - your comment seems a bit odd since only one poster has posted on Blender in this thread. While I felt his posting was inappropriate, you seem to be overstating things.



Maybe he got a sales rep who made a mistake, or maybe Nichod misunderstood or miscommunicated something.

If you look at their pricing list they show



http://www.maxonshop.com/cgi-bin/us/gp?pg=products/upgrades.main&sid=&uid=&aid=&cid=100&rn=177

So if you have R9 it is far from clear what you will end up paying based on their website price sheet. 295? 1495? 2495? I suspect that the latter of the prices are based on upgrading from vanilla R9 to the more complete bundles, whereas the the first upgrade is based on already having one of the bundles and upgrading to the same bundle. However, given the presentation that is not clear at all.

LetterRip

Pretty much my take after reading through this thread. Pulling the "troll" card seems a tad heavy handed. As for Joe Alter, he has a reputation going back to his discontinued support for Lightwave.

That being said I'm not a Cinema4D user but after having a look at mdme_sadie's little hair ball .mov I have to say that I'm impressed by the look and will keep an eye on this thread to see what else Hair can do. I think the name Hair is a bit minimalist though.

Mechis
12-09-2005, 12:29 PM
Has anyone done any styling-- ponytails, etc...?

Loving the renders coming out of this thread.

Thanks,
Mechis

basti
12-09-2005, 12:43 PM
hi
the elepunk has been posted in the gallery and the reindeer in the c4d forum but as it's hair related and not everybody is looking in these forum here it is again:

a little animation showing some stiff but still moving dynamics:
http://www.pixellusion.de/images/elepunk_2.jpg
click here for 8mb animation (http://www.pixellusion.de/movies/elepunk.mov)
rendertimes for the elefant hair (15.000 hairs, 3 lights) on a 2.8ghz p4: 72 minutes for 200 frames with 5x scenemotionblur (=1000 frames) which is awesome!

and my reindeer which rendered only 46 seconds!
http://pixellusion.de/public/deer_hair_005_46s.jpg

basti

Nichod
12-09-2005, 06:02 PM
I do not know what your particular issue is, i don't even think you search out C4D threads either, but perhaps you are merely upset that Blender and it's new hair solution was given a short shrift when other blender users attempted to troll/polute this thread earlier on.

What does Blender have to do with my comments? I don't think I even made a hint at Blender in any of my posts regarding this plugin. My only comment was in regard to the cost of C4D in relation to its competitors. And I hardly was hijacking the thread in making my statement on the pricing structure, etc. Anyway. Sorry for OT guys, but being attacked for something that isn't true is just wrong. Hopefully with the changes in the market prices will shift and maxon will be forced to bend a little and sit at a more reasonable price. More flexible bundle structures would be nice as well.

leigh
12-09-2005, 06:07 PM
Guys, please chill out. There is no necessity for any arguing in this thread.

ThirdEye
12-09-2005, 08:48 PM
As usual there's someone complaining about... whatever he is complaining about. Best hair system i've ever tried, congrats Maxon, once again.

MJV
12-09-2005, 10:56 PM
This thread seems to have gotten a little off track but let me just say that I personally find Hair an absolute joy to work with, and I'm delighted that there is at last a very high quality, easy to use hair module for Cinema 4D. Every once in a while a piece of software comes along that changes the 3D landscape and I think this is one. Here are some renders I've managed to do using Hair:

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/GerberaClosedPod18Bee50.jpg

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/GerberaClosedPod18Bee51ae.jpg

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/GerberaClosedPod18Bee51Editor.jpg

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/EltaOhairy242NewBun18.jpg

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/EltaOhairy242NewBun17.jpg

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/EltaOhairy242NewBun5.jpg

http://www.mvpny.com/3DStills/slides/CandymanAloneOhairy16.jpg

Mechis
12-09-2005, 11:52 PM
@MJV
Love the renders... especially the woman's hair tied back in a bun. I can't think of a time I've seen styled hair like that in 3d. All the programs seem to show pics of free hair, but nothing that is really styled. :thumbsup:

Also, would you please post your thoughts in this thread about xsi and C4d:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=300652

Thanks!
Mechis

Jonj1611
12-10-2005, 08:43 AM
Hi,

Man those are some fantastic renders, really like the bee.

Top quality work man :)

Jon

Srek
12-22-2005, 10:24 AM
One more for the fun of it. This time Hair with Scene Motion Blur (http://www.bonkers.de/hair/movies/hair_mb.mov) (6 MB Sorenson 3).
http://www.bonkers.de/hair/movies/frame0129.jpg

Info for all those who already ordered Hair, shipping has just started.

Cheers
Björn

bobzilla
12-22-2005, 12:03 PM
hi
the elepunk has been posted in the gallery and the reindeer in the c4d forum but as it's hair related and not everybody is looking in these forum here it is again:

a little animation showing some stiff but still moving dynamics:
http://www.pixellusion.de/images/elepunk_2.jpg
click here for 8mb animation (http://www.pixellusion.de/movies/elepunk.mov)
rendertimes for the elefant hair (15.000 hairs, 3 lights) on a 2.8ghz p4: 72 minutes for 200 frames with 5x scenemotionblur (=1000 frames) which is awesome!

and my reindeer which rendered only 46 seconds!
http://pixellusion.de/public/deer_hair_005_46s.jpg

basti

This is going off the hair topic, but the tracking on the elephant animation ids great! How did you do it?

Srek
01-03-2006, 03:15 PM
Hi,
the Hair module for CINEMA 4D 9.5 is now also available as a 64 Bit version.
Every owner of a CINEMA 4D 9.5 Windows license can request the 64 Bit version via the Maxon website http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/64bit/register_e.html
Owners of a CINEMA 4D 9 / 9.5 Net Renderer license for Macintosh computer can request the 64 Bit client for windows 64 bit to be used as a renderclient.
Cheers
Björn

FloydBishop
01-03-2006, 03:58 PM
Those are beautiful, Mike. I especially like the image of the bun in the back of the hair. Very nice.

basti
01-03-2006, 04:36 PM
This is going off the hair topic, but the tracking on the elephant animation ids great! How did you do it?
hi bobzilla
our matchmove service is using realviz matchmover for trackings + some inhouse plugins to repair tracking problems in c4d.

@michael: great images. i really like the styled hair of the women (backview)

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