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gabeg
12-04-2005, 11:28 PM
I love the artists oils brushes but one thing that is missing is that I havent been able to find a brush that simulates water for opaque paints like oils or acrylic. It seems that these types are opaque only. I know about the opacity setting but this doesnt dilute the paint on the canvas. It would be cool If painter had a water bucket window, like the mixing pallette.The longer u click in the water pallete the more water is held in the brush. Maybe there is something I dont know of, but this would add to the realism of simulating real paint. Also, a way to dry oils would be nice. and then go over it with a glaze without disturbing the paint underneath. Use this with the add water ability would make the "painter experience" closer to the real thing.

Jinbrown
12-05-2005, 12:53 AM
Hi gabeg,

It might help solve your "dilute the paint" issue to read the following:

Painter IX Help > Help Topics > Contents tab > Customizing Brushes

On the right panel, click the link named "Managing Settings and Controls".

On the next page, scroll down and read the section named "Well Controls". In the first paragraph of that section, also click the link named "Expression Settings" and read that information too.


To "dry Artist's Oils", maybe this will help, though I'm not sure exactly what you want to do other than add a glaze:

Use File > Clone to make an exact copy of whatever is visible in your image (the Canvas will also be included whether or not its Eye icon is closed). Then copy the Clone and paste it onto your working image as a Layer. This will disconnect any brushstrokes made using Impasto variants or other brush variants that use Impasto controls from the Impasto Layer's depth and lighting controls. You should now be able to treat that Layer just as if it were flat color painted with one of the simpler brush variants. That does not mean that it won't be affected by painting over it since many brush variants will affect that Layer. It does mean that you won't be able to, for instance, edit some of the Impasto or Artist's Oils' brushstrokes using some brush variants from those brush categories the way you could on the original painting where the Impasto/Artist's Oils brushstrokes were "live".

Any new brushstrokes added to the Clone Layer using brush variants that use Impasto controls will be "live" and affected by the Impasto Layer's depth and lighting.

It's hard to explain this clearly but if you try it, you'll learn how it works.

The information on the Well palette may also help with this issue.

gabeg
12-05-2005, 04:21 AM
I checked into it and there isn't (well) support for artist oils. this works for the original oils category though, but not a big fan of those. Thanks for the impasto idea although I was asking about something different. My question was about artist oils or any opaque paint in general in painter 9. The problem I am having is that in painter there doesnt seem to be a way to dilute the paint once you put it on canvas. Ive found ways to blend paint, use a pallette knife to pread the paint and mix, but I see no brush similair to digital watercolors "pure water brush" which dilutes the paint. so basically a way to paint over existing paint on a canvas without blend the 2 together like how a glaze works. Thanks for replying back.

Gabe

Jinbrown
12-06-2005, 12:28 AM
Hi Gabe,

I have a feeling most of your questions may be related to your wanting to do glazing. If I'm wrong, please explain more clearly why you want to dilute the Artist's Oils paint in some other way that by adjusting Opacity and other available controls for these brush variants.

You're right. Well controls are not available for Artist's Oils variants though they are for the Oils' variants and many other brush categories' variants.

Maybe you can find a way to do what you want by working with the Brush Controls' Artist's Oils palette controls. Those, in combination with other brush controls such as Opacity, Grain, etc. might provide the solution.



About Glazing - (Again, I'm still not clear as to whether all of these questions are ultimately about your wanting to glaze or if your questions are related to more than one goal.):

Using traditional media, when the artist paints a glaze over existing paint, I would think it would not alter the existing paint unless that existing paint was wet. In that case, the artist would be blending the glaze paint and the existing paint, not just glazing.

We can do both using Painter, though I would not think of the second method so much as glazing, rather blending or mixing color:

Glaze new color over existing paint without disturbing the existing paint.

Paint new color over existing paint and at the same time blend the new color with existing paint color.

Using Painter, if you don't want to blend existing paint but only want to paint a glaze over it, there's no need for the existing paint to be altered while painting the glaze. Just pick a brush variant you like for glazing, and paint either directly on the existing paint or on a Layer above the existing paint. (I'd choose to paint on a Layer to allow for changes without affecting the previously painted brushstrokes.)

In the demo image below, I've painted a single stroke on a Layer using the Artist's Oils' Thick Wet Impasto variant, duplicated it twice, and used a couple of methods to glaze, then suggested yet another method in the list of steps below for the Right Stroke:

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/G3_Glazing_Methods_01.gif

Left Stroke - Painted on a Layer with the Artist's Oils' Thick Wet Impasto variant and Main Color set to R:111 G:167 B:153.

Center Stroke - Duplicate of Left Stroke, right-clicked/Control-clicked this Layer and chose Select Layer Transparency, then painted inside the selection using the Digital Watercolor's New Simple Water Variant with the Main Color set to R: 236 G:220 B:140.

Right Stroke - Duplicate of Left Stroke, created a New Layer, with selection active, used Ctrl/Command+F to Fill, Using: Current Color R:236 G:220 B:140, then lowered Layer Opacity to 50%. (For a more subtle color glaze, change the Layer's Opacity to 100% and Composite Method to Soft Light.)


Again, if we're missing the point here, please explain in detail what it is you ultimately want to achieve.


Thanks,

Jinbrown
12-06-2005, 12:51 AM
Learn about the Artist's Oils palette controls here:

Painter IX Help > Help Topics > Contents tab > Customizing Brushes

On the right panel, click the link named "Managing Settings and Controls".

On the next page, scroll down to the section named "Artist's Oil Controls".

gabeg
12-06-2005, 05:51 PM
I use watercolors for glazing which works great but why do the artist oils not work in the same way "painting w/o blending what is underneath" or at least an option to do so. I've turned blend down on the artist oils which solves the blending problem with the underlying paint, but the the paint that u add will not blend with itself. It's a technique called scumbling in traditional painting. The watercolors only darken what's on the canvas like a multiply layer. once u hit 50% in value it turns invisible like adding water, which works great, but I can't lighten with them. I basically want the artist oils to perform the scumbling tech "adding paint that can blend and dilute over top of dried paint witout blending" like a glaze but going more opaque and lighter, but I can't find a way to keep the artist oils from blending underneath. I tried to paint with artist oils on a seperate layer, but they dont work correctly w/o pick up underlying color turned on. I have an example but can't figure out how to add an image. It's asking for a url instead of a pic file.
Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks again!

Gabe

Jinbrown
12-07-2005, 06:01 AM
Gabe,

An example might help, though we may need input from other artists who have experience both with traditional oils and Painter.

Still, I think the main problem may be expecting Painter to behave exactly like traditional media. While it goes a long way, it's still digital art we're dealing with. Another thing to remember when using Painter is that it's not so good to get stuck on the name of a brush category, if variants from another brush category will do the job better and more easily.

I don't think you can attach images on this site so you'll need to upload your example image either to your own website or another site then paste the URL to the image file into your post.

If you don't have a place to upload the image, try PhotoBucket.com ... a free gallery site and once your image is uploaded it provides you with three options to copy and paste:

1. URL (for instance, http://www.pixelalley.com/mosaics/mosaic-2-orig-quarter.jpg )

2. Tag (HTML code for your web page)

3. IMG (URL to the image file between image tags, like this:

http://www.pixelalley.com/painterforum-indepth/image-tags-sample.jpg

gabeg
12-07-2005, 05:53 PM
I was just curious if the artist oils could perform a scumbling technique for the most part. I love to use other brushes within also but I thought this feature would work well with the artist oils. No other brush in painter perfoms like it. If this feature is not possible then I'll just add it to the wish list, and continue to paint wet on wet and with "real" paints. Nothing beats the real thing :)

Thanks for your time,
Gabe

steve_szoczei
12-15-2005, 03:07 PM
Gabe...

On the property bar for the Artists Oils brush you have controls for the way the paint interacts with other paint on the canvas / layer.

The second last control is titled 'blend' which controls the amount that the paint on the brush will blend with the paint that is already on the canvas. So if you reduce this you will get more of a scumbilng effect, and if you reduce the opacity of the paint, you will see more of the underpainting through the new strokes.

Is this what you are looking for?

cheers

steve

gabeg
12-17-2005, 11:19 PM
Hi Steve,

This works close to what I want. The only problem is that the paint applied with no blend doesn't blend with itself . The effect im looking for is wet paint on top of dry. using no blend works more like a dry brush which is the closest I can get to scumbling. It would be nice if you could paint on another layer w/o pick underlying color turned on "which causes blending". but the brush doesnt work correctly w/o it turned on (it has something to do with the alpha) someone wrote a script a couple ver. ago for painter that allows you to use oils, acrylics and so on types on another layer w/o pick underlying color on and it worked great. Havent been able to find that script though and it probably wouldn't work for painter 9 anyway. It has to be something fairly simple to fix. Photoshop has never had a problem doing this. Thanks for your help!

Gabe

steve_szoczei
12-18-2005, 01:59 PM
... It would be nice if you could paint on another layer w/o pick underlying color turned on "which causes blending". but the brush doesnt work correctly w/o it turned on (it has something to do with the alpha) ....

Gabe

I'm confused then... Artists Oils does NOT require 'pick up underlying color' to be turned on when working on multiple layers.

You can have multiple layers, with transparency appled to them etc without issue...

The 'pick-up underlying color' control will allow for working on multiple layers without 'harming' the original, but allowing to blend and use color from the original layer.

Am I missing something?


steve

gabeg
12-20-2005, 03:12 AM
I didnt mean to make it sound like you couldnt paint with artist oils on a seperate layer. The problem is, is that the art oils don't paint the same when the layer is invisible. for example. Throw some art oils down on the original canvas layer. there is already white pixels that it can blend with. If you add art oils to a new layer, the layer is transparent and because of this the paint ends up working like a drybrush once the paint runs out, instead of blending out" like you just paint opaque and then the paint runs out. only when u paint on top of paint can u keep blending or you paint on the canvas layer. It seems to treat transarent areas different. Basicall I think an add water brush would be nice. like the one in the watercolor brush. Your advise with turning the opacity down works nice, but it still works like drybrush. I basically want the art oils to perform in the same way that they do on the canvas layer. I forgot to add, this is with the blending turned down to zero on the artists oils. but you get the same problem regardless when working on a transparent layer w/ pick underlying color turned off. I wish I could send you a example but you cant post images up unless you have a website.

Thanks for your advise and time!,
Gabe

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