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Kid-Mesh
11-29-2005, 12:58 AM
I've started going through Joe's rigging2 CD and ran into the issue below. :banghead:

http://www.anthonyhollis.com/cgtalk/issues/Animation/footproblem.jpg


This occured after I applied the expression (Nate_RotateToe_R).

The information is for those who may not have the CD but need to have an understanding of how it happened.

1. Created an Expression called Nate_RotateToe_R
2. Selected the ArchBone and it's heading
3. Right clicked on buffer under the expession tab to add it to the exp.
4. Selected Toe_R and went to channels tab and clicked the box next to '+' to get the check mark for adding it.
5. Still in channels tab. Clicked the heading for Toe_R and the clicked the '+' button to add the heading to that channel.

After that...well you saw the picture.

Note: In the animate tab the toe bone flips backward 90 degrees but in the setup tab it's fine. I know how to fix this in LW but cant figure it out here :shrug:

Hopefully someone else ran into this issue and can help me.


Cheers,

Kid-Mesh
11-29-2005, 03:41 AM
Ok it seems other people have had an issue with this based on a search but oddly enough I'm still not following :shrug: ...maybe it's just getting late.


But anways, a few questions so I can have something to latch on to tommorow.

Now I've literally tried this thing now about 15x already :banghead: ....but from what Im gathering is it a coordinates issue with the bone?

When you select HPB, XYZ etc should one use the MMB / RMB or LMB and does it make a difference?

Add a bone and the '*' key does two different things....and should that even matter?


....I just dont want to spin my wheels longer than have to. But other than this hiccup for me the CD is very solid :thumbsup:

dOMINUSMess
11-29-2005, 07:55 AM
I am also currently doing that tutorial and it works fine for me, but I can not help you with the rotation issue:shrug: other than point you to a thread here on CGTalk which I guess you already have found yourself : http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=238685&highlight=joe+cosman (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=238685&highlight=joe+cosman) .

Selecting the H,P,B,X,Y and Z makes no difference with LMB, MMB or RMB I guess.
It's selecting and DRAGGING in the old coordination system that makes a difference for the mouse buttons.
As you can see here on the forum, I just recently posted a question about local, parent and world coordinates, and even more experienced users are confused by it, so it'll take a while before it all sinks down I guess.

The best way to find out what the "+"key, the "*" key and "Add Bone" do, is to play around with the functions in a new scene: just create a hierarchy and then apply the + and the * and the Add Bone and see what the difference is.
What I have written down in my notes =
button "Add Bone" creates a new bone exactly like the one that's selected and
parents it to the parent of the bone that was selected, but
the new bone is placed at the Base of the parent !
---------------------
* (multiply) creates a new bone exactly like the one that's selected and
parents it to the parent of the bone that was selected, but
the new bone is placed exactly over the bone that was selected !
---------------------------------------

EDIT: I do'nt know if you also have the Rigging 1 tutorials video, but I can avise you to also buy that.
In that tut, Joe does a different setup, and some of it I personally prefer in comparison with the Rigging 2 setup.
So having both gives you more "points of comparison" and it becomes easier to understand WHY he does certain things.

Hope it helps...

JoeCosman
11-29-2005, 08:11 PM
Now I've literally tried this thing now about 15x already :banghead: ....but from what Im gathering is it a coordinates issue with the bone?

When you select HPB, XYZ etc should one use the MMB / RMB or LMB and does it make a difference?

Add a bone and the '*' key does two different things....and should that even matter?

:thumbsup:

RMB and LMB clicking a bone *does matter* you cannot rotate past 90 degrees on pitch
when you RMB rotate a bone (local coords). it will spin heading and bank 180 and give you 45 degrees on pitch. if you LMB, you can go over 90 degrees on the particular channel.


add a bone will drop a bone in the heirarchy equal to the selection. when you use the * key, you duplicate the current bone in place, so you dont have to move it.

-joeC

Kid-Mesh
11-30-2005, 12:19 AM
Finally

Hey Joe thanks for commenting...I know that if you had a dollar for everytime this issue came up :scream:


Alright...well for the next person who might search for a thread pertaining to this issue I hope this helps just like the other links helped me too.

Now here is what I learned. although I'm proably talking aloud as the vets around here know this already.

First of all yes the coord system in Messiah takes some getting used too and I've yet to fully comprehend it so take this with a grain of salt.

After many attempts I corrected the issue in two ways:

Fix#1

(In order)
1. Changed the coords to (parent)
2. Rebuilt the foot setup
3. Created the expressions

Problem went away :applause:

Now for the caveat:

Since I did it this way, the original heading that the bone (Arch_R) had when it was created stays exactly where it is. Whereas when it's built with the coords on (local) the actual heading will move to it's new resting place.

So what does that mean? Well when you go to animate it the Arch_Bone's heading will still be at it's orginal rest (the back) and not in the front...but it works as desired.

For a quick test I switched the coords back to local and poof the heading popped into the front. But when I moved the bone the meshes feet looked as if he was doing the moon walk on ecstasy. I switched the coords back to parent and it was fine plus the caveat.


Fix #2 (Better for me)

1. Changed coords to (local)
2. Rebuilt foot setup
3. Created the expressions
4. Amended [Nate_ArchR:heading]to [Nate_ArchR:heading]+(DTOR*180)
5. Walked up the stairs kissed the wife and the world was good again :)


This works like a charm....I really would love to know more about expressions so I guess I will look into it.



EDIT:

So let me see if I got this right.

-When you RMB click and adjust the bones is that local coords?
-And when you LMB click is that parent coords?
-When adjusting H,P,B should that be done in local coords mode?
-When adjusting X,Y,Z should that be done in parent coord mode?

Thanks :thumbsup:

dOMINUSMess
11-30-2005, 07:06 AM
Kid Mesh posted: So let me see if I got this right.

-When you RMB click and adjust the bones is that local coords?
-And when you LMB click is that parent coords?
-When adjusting H,P,B should that be done in local coords mode?
-When adjusting X,Y,Z should that be done in parent coord mode?

Well, I think the DOCS should be MUCH clearer on this.
I've been trying to find out all of that since I installrd messiah, posted questions, got confused answers and still am not sure.

:scream: PMG???
Maybe post a tutorial or some indeep info on your website about using the coordinate system so your new users actually can find out how to use the program properly :sad: ?????

Kid-Mesh
11-30-2005, 10:00 AM
Well after I posted this Joe cleared it up a bit more on his CD. RMB click (local) and LMB click is (parent). Just to be on the safe side....I have just been adjusting the bones around in parent mode LMB unless the bone requires that I adjust it other wise. Hopefully in time with more exposure to the tool it should make more sense :).

*But in my fixes above I actually clicked on the (coords) button in the viewport and set the local/parent etc manually for that particular viewport.

dOMINUSMess
11-30-2005, 10:41 AM
Kid Mesh posted: Well after I posted this Joe cleared it up a bit more on his CD. RMB click (local) and LMB click is (parent).
Yep, I know he does, but I have no clue if this is thrue in messiah:studio workstation 2.2, even more experienced users were not sure after I asked them.
Just try it out yourself: put new coord sys on, and do some LMB and RMB and try to see if there's a difference between them.
When I try that, it seems not to make any difference at all.
My way of working until now is doing everything in parent mode, unless Joe tells otherwise.

isobarxx
11-30-2005, 11:11 AM
That's true. LMB/RMB is true for the old coord system.

With the new coord system options, LMB or RMB do the same thing. The orientation decider moves from mouse buttons to the LPWS buttons onscreen.


btw this is why I like messiah. It's based on a series of dead simple rules. So you work out a number of precepts you can count on one hand for how the app should behave, and throughout, those precepts remain true. SO you can intuitively (after working out and internalizing the rules) think "It SHOULD work this way...." and almost every time it does.

Eventually it'll diffuse into another beast which is richer, but less clear, than the original idea. This happens with every discipline that grows as quickly as 3D does. All the old apps are hard to use. All the new apps are simple. They're simple because they're new. They haven't diffused yet. So what I'm saying here is, cherish this time with messiah as something special.

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